#emc | Logs for 2009-12-18

[00:09:55] <andypugh> Lovely: http://steampunkworkshop.com/visit-pratt-university-steam-plant
[00:12:21] <Jymmm> LOL I love it... http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/for/1510522844.html
[00:16:08] <jt-plasma> * jt-plasma listens to the Pickle Song
[00:16:53] <jt-plasma> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g266Uwp6ZnI
[00:34:14] <lilalinux> lilalinux is now known as lilalinux_away
[00:44:03] <MattyMatt> I could mod one of these model M keybs like that steampunk one
[00:45:45] <MattyMatt> but it may look steampunk, but it doesn't really work like one. A real one would use long levers like an old manual keyb, with a pickup drum to pull the key down with a nice clunk like a selectric
[00:46:25] <MattyMatt> that needs lots of lasercut levers
[00:47:05] <MattyMatt> but it would mean dust & juice would fall straight through
[00:47:39] <MattyMatt> 'twould be grand
[00:48:06] <frallzor> * frallzor is tired
[00:48:15] <andypugh> I only started this whole CNC project because I wanted to make a steampunk clock....
[00:48:48] <danimal_garage> whats a steampunk clock?
[00:49:03] <andypugh> A clock with a stempunk aesthetic
[00:49:25] <MattyMatt> I don't like faking it too much :)
[00:50:49] <andypugh> No, my clock will be authentically Babbage
[00:51:03] <danimal_garage> interesting
[00:51:14] <andypugh> (I have already spent a couple of hours in the science museum looking hard at only one exhibit)
[00:52:14] <Jymmm> andypugh: Take a video, it lasts longer =)
[00:52:23] <MattyMatt> I'd like to make grandfather clocks with lots of extra functions
[00:52:40] <MattyMatt> day, date, phase of moon, to start with
[00:53:03] <MattyMatt> then weather, traffic and tides
[00:53:10] <andypugh> more than one train gets tricky, the rope/chain only has two ends
[00:53:20] <jt-plasma> say Goodnight Gracie :)
[00:53:32] <MattyMatt> price of gold, length of skirt (one dial for both)
[00:53:38] <Jymmm> jt-plasma: See ya Groucho!
[00:54:26] <andypugh> My clock will have four trains, so I am using a 4-way co-axial differential.
[00:54:46] <danimal_garage> my clock will tell time in 3 languages.
[00:55:30] <MattyMatt> yay, we're all turning swiss
[00:55:55] <MattyMatt> my cuckoo clock is better than yours
[00:56:00] <danimal_garage> not swiss, english, spanish and manderin
[00:56:19] <danimal_garage> my clock can beat up your clock
[00:57:27] <MattyMatt> I made a clock from a kit when I was a kid. it gained about 10 mins a day and gave up completely when the chain stretched
[00:58:13] <MattyMatt> a 50Hz pendulum can look steampunk tho, with nice copper coils
[00:58:26] <danimal_garage> maybe it was a time machine and it was taking you 10 minutes into the past each day
[00:58:43] <danimal_garage> or future
[00:58:53] <MattyMatt> that's how I got here
[00:58:53] <danimal_garage> time machine none the less
[00:59:21] <MattyMatt> I was wondering what happened to the nineties and noughties
[01:00:18] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as Jymmmmmmmm
[01:07:51] <andypugh> There are several days of the Noughties left.
[01:08:22] <MattyMatt> eek, hadn't thought of it like that
[01:08:51] <andypugh> No, nor had I.
[01:08:58] <andypugh> When did time speed up?
[01:10:07] <MattyMatt> some years seem much longer than average, but I haven't had many of them recently :p
[01:10:19] <frallzor> if a 3 phase vfd starts on only 2 faces, does it mean it can run a motor if not too demanding then
[01:10:26] <frallzor> *phases =P
[01:10:52] <andypugh> I am not sure I understand the question
[01:11:20] <frallzor> well It starts up with only 2 of 3 phases
[01:11:22] <MattyMatt> probably not, although a spinning motor would probably be sustained if a phase failed
[01:11:38] <MattyMatt> dunno, it can't be good for the driver
[01:11:43] <frallzor> but could it run a less powerful motor if not using the full potential
[01:11:45] <andypugh> Some VFDs are happy enough on 2-phase _input_ at reduced duty cycle. As the first thing that they do is rectify to DC.
[01:12:22] <andypugh> 2 phase output will not tell the motor which way to run, I don't think.
[01:12:46] <MattyMatt> it wouldn't self-start at a minimum
[01:13:11] <MattyMatt> that's a separate subject tho, straight 3 phase motors
[01:13:22] <MattyMatt> VFD is another ball game
[01:13:56] <andypugh> But, if the question is whether you can run your VFD on single-phase input: If it is working, then yes you can
[01:14:27] <MattyMatt> is it covered by manufacturer's warrantee. that's what I'd worry about with a shiny new one
[01:15:05] <andypugh> Some do specify a reduced duty cycle on single phase input. But then, how are they ever going to tell>
[01:15:46] <MattyMatt> if you lie to them when they ask, it's fraud
[01:16:16] <MattyMatt> I hate fraud
[01:16:32] <MattyMatt> except for Emma, she's quite hot
[01:17:39] <andypugh> Yeah, well, I tend to assume that other people are more normal than me, so advise accordingly. I am honest to a fault (seriously)
[01:18:03] <MattyMatt> http://www.contactmusic.com/photos.nsf/main/emma_freud_5267920
[01:18:16] <MattyMatt> yep, still s-worthy
[01:18:30] <danimal_garage> are vector drives the cat's meow as far as spindle control goes?
[01:18:46] <andypugh> That's not emma freud is it?
[01:20:22] <danimal_garage> i need a new vfd, i was reading about vector drives
[01:20:24] <MattyMatt> unless the photographer was deluded, it is
[01:20:36] <andypugh> She looked a lot better fatter
[01:20:52] <MattyMatt> is a vector drive like a BLDC motor with a microstepper?
[01:20:53] <andypugh> <ahem> Back to tpic
[01:21:07] <andypugh> No, 'tis a VFD that can do slow speed a lot better
[01:22:38] <danimal_garage> so it is better?
[01:23:06] <andypugh> Yes. But it rather depends on how much better you need, as the cost is higher
[01:23:26] <danimal_garage> any particular type that works better? i see some called sensorless vector drives... they seem to be cheap. any good?
[01:24:14] <danimal_garage> my spindle is 3 phase 3hp 1700rpm
[01:24:25] <andypugh> Sorry, I would be guessign if I even pretended to have an opinion.
[01:25:00] <danimal_garage> same here lol
[01:25:13] <Dave911_> Dave911_ is now known as Dave911
[01:25:34] <MattyMatt> http://www.austriamicrosystems.com/eng/Products/Magnetic-Encoders/Rotary-Encoders
[01:25:43] <MattyMatt> this place seems to do samples
[01:26:12] <MattyMatt> the "programmable 360 deg BLDC commutator" one looks handy
[01:28:11] <MattyMatt> sin & cos analog out could be handy too
[01:28:37] <MattyMatt> but that could be done mechanically with an eccentric
[01:32:01] <MattyMatt> isn't a traditional 3 phase motor the same as a 3 pole BLDC?
[01:33:16] <andypugh> No
[01:34:06] <andypugh> A 3-phase motor has no torque with a DC voltage
[01:35:05] <MattyMatt> it wont be DC once the commutator starts chopping it
[01:35:41] <danimal_garage> damn, half the vector drives on ebay are 400v
[01:35:51] <andypugh> The rotor relies on induced eddy currents to make torque. I assume that a vector drive supplies carefully phased AC currents to the windings to keep the squirrel cage energised, and to then apply the torque
[01:36:49] <andypugh> Commutator? There is no Commutator in either motor type.
[01:37:17] <MattyMatt> a BLDC driver running off an encoder is the 'commutator'
[01:37:46] <andypugh> Yeah, sort of, but a vector drive can run without an encoder
[01:38:08] <andypugh> (And I think BLDC use analogue hall sensors)
[01:38:33] <MattyMatt> the ones in floppy drives use hall sensors
[01:38:58] <MattyMatt> but any angle sensor will do
[01:39:17] <andypugh> Whereas a standard 3-phase motor has nothing of the sort, nor any permanent magnets
[01:39:55] <MattyMatt> the 3 phase AC mains provides that
[01:40:14] <andypugh> A BLDC will create torque with a DC voltage, a 3-phase motor needs AC.
[01:40:29] <MattyMatt> yeah you'd have exceedingly crap low speed torque with coil-coil
[01:41:10] <MattyMatt> but for a spindle, that's irrelevant
[01:41:41] <MattyMatt> as long as it can start itself
[01:42:13] <andypugh> Well, with high frequency excitation to keep the rotor energised and then superimposing the slow-speed signal on that, you can get good low-speed torque from a 3-phase motor, that's what I assume a vector drive does.
[01:42:41] <andypugh> Depends if you want to use your spindle as an axis too.
[01:42:56] <MattyMatt> ah cool
[01:46:25] <MattyMatt> more poles might be fun to play with, once I've got a motor-winder-robot
[01:46:49] <MattyMatt> you could divide the electrical load between more transistors that way
[01:48:39] <MattyMatt> that 12 pole one in the washing machine on instructables was half way between stepper and servo
[01:52:49] <tom3p> martin's eagle2hal still exists at http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Eagle2HAL
[01:55:11] <andypugh> Thanks, but the learning curve is such that it probably makes more sense for me to just use HAL and textedit
[02:11:12] <andypugh> Night all
[02:25:34] <ries_> ries_ is now known as ries
[02:53:29] <Jymmmmmmmm> Jymmmmmmmm is now known as Jymm
[03:05:13] <Dave911_> Dave911_ is now known as Dave911
[03:30:52] <KimK> KimK is now known as KimK_afk
[03:47:13] <roh> i added some pics about our emc-arduino gpio box https://m21.hyte.de/wiki/EmcArduino
[04:14:35] <cradek> m21.hyte.de uses an invalid security certificate. The certificate is not trusted because the issuer certificate is unknown.
[04:14:40] <cradek> roh: ^
[04:15:16] <roh> cradek cacert
[04:15:55] <cradek> looks neat
[04:26:06] <roh> will add more documentation some other time
[05:08:30] <jimbo8288_> I am looking at making some changes in touchy. I am trying to understand the link from the GTK code label on_estop_clicked to HAl.
[05:10:22] <cradek> not sure what you're asking - say more?
[05:14:43] <jimbo8288_> when I open up touchy.glade I see a signal associated with the estop button. the signal is on_estop_clicked. I am assuming that this signal is linked to HAL thru Shared Mem. But I am unable to find how this works.
[05:15:24] <cradek> there's a mapping in touchy.py from those signal names to the corresponding python code
[05:21:11] <jimbo8288_> so I am agian assuming that the line on_estop_clicked : self.emc.estop is a link to the bit in shared memory?
[05:21:37] <cradek> no, it has nothing to do with hal or shared memory
[05:21:54] <cradek> at this level, it's a plain old gui running plain old python code
[05:24:21] <jimbo8288_> I do work with C. I have never used Python. So Where in the code does the link to HAL take place thru Shared Mem if it does. Sorry for my lack of knowledge.
[05:24:23] <jimbo8288_>
[05:25:10] <SWPadnos> that's probably not the question you really need to ask :)
[05:25:26] <SWPadnos> the HAL interface to python is in the hal module (import hal)
[05:25:44] <SWPadnos> you create pins and look at their values with python code
[05:26:00] <SWPadnos> (you can see a lot of that in one of the touchy source files)
[05:26:16] <MattyMatt> what about the gtk link to HAL? is HAL a gtk prog?
[05:26:17] <SWPadnos> there is no direct manipulation of HAL shared memory in the python code
[05:26:18] <cradek> maybe you should back up and say what problem you're trying to solve, instead of asking one specific question about it?
[05:27:02] <SWPadnos> MattyMatt, no, HAL is kernel and userspace C code, but you can write GTK programs that also access HAL using one of the HAL libraries
[05:27:10] <SWPadnos> halscope is an example of a gtk+HAL program
[05:27:17] <jimbo8288_> I am trying to add state colors to some of the buttons so you can look at the interface and see what has been selected.
[05:27:21] <cradek> touchy does have hal pins
[05:27:38] <cradek> but what you're trying to do has nothing to do with hal
[05:27:54] <cradek> you're firmly in the gtk+python realm here
[05:28:31] <jimbo8288_> Then who keeps the state so other interfaces are also updated?
[05:28:48] <cradek> that information comes in through the emc stat buffer
[05:29:10] <cradek> see periodic() in emc_interface.py
[05:29:45] <jimbo8288_> I will look. Thank you.....
[05:30:19] <cradek> welcome
[05:30:25] <ds3> hmmm
[05:31:14] <MattyMatt> I should rtfm I think :)
[05:31:27] <MattyMatt> rtwfw (whole fine wiki)
[05:31:37] <ds3> would it be overkill to use EMC to control an oven if all the oven has is a relay to enable or disable the heating elements(feedback is via a SPI interfaced thermometer)?
[05:31:56] <cradek> heh
[05:31:57] <GonMD> no kill like overkill
[05:32:11] <ds3> it isn't like you can PWM a relay!
[05:32:13] <MattyMatt> how many elements? door switch? light? fan?
[05:32:14] <cradek> they make these things called thermostats...
[05:32:30] <ds3> i need a programmable heat profile
[05:32:50] <tom3p> trapezoidal?
[05:33:00] <MattyMatt> too much hysterisis in a thermostat. your souflee goes flat
[05:33:02] <ds3> flexible... want to experiment with reflowing things
[05:33:17] <cradek> hal + classicladder maybe
[05:33:19] <tom3p> use hal
[05:33:37] <ds3> that will be useful even if it is just a relay?
[05:34:22] <ds3> I see 2 ways of going about it -- piggy back off the machine controller running EMC or write a quick and dirty dos program and slap on an ancient 386 motherboard to run it
[05:34:59] <MattyMatt> if it was a pizza-conveyer it'd be worth the effort
[05:35:24] <tom3p> yes hal will be useful and yes even if it is just a relay and dont use emc if you have no motion and no position
[05:35:36] <ds3> it would be cheaper then paying $200 each time for someone to run a few boards for you
[05:36:07] <MattyMatt> toaster is the right size + heat for SMT
[05:36:35] <ds3> you can order PCBs for about $20 but you can't get assembly for that price
[05:36:59] <MattyMatt> that's the fun bit, for the first few boards
[05:37:53] <ds3> tom3p: would a SSR make any difference?
[05:38:21] <MattyMatt> paste deposition. that'll need a squirter tool
[05:39:14] <ds3> nah... simple solder stencil
[05:39:18] <ds3> 5mil mylar
[05:39:56] <MattyMatt> or pretin the board before you mill it
[05:40:14] <ds3> that's $$$
[05:40:39] <MattyMatt> really? a tray of hot solder for hot dip?
[05:40:59] <ds3> I don't have a cheap solder pot
[05:41:07] <tom3p> ds3 ssr can be triggered by 3to24Vdc or by 5V ttl or by ac or... lotsa kinds of ssr's, often easy to interface to parport
[05:41:18] <ds3> and the emersion tin chemicals are nasty
[05:41:33] <Jymm> ds3: sure you do.... electric frying pan
[05:41:40] <ds3> tom3p: but someone told me there is a larger drop across it?
[05:41:48] <MattyMatt> any frying pan
[05:42:19] <ds3> For the trouble, I stil rather not
[05:42:42] <roh> ds3 i think emc is the wrong tool for the job, but why not use a proper ssr and an avr?
[05:42:45] <MattyMatt> less trouble than mylar masks, if you ask me
[05:43:06] <MattyMatt> but a paste squirter is neatest
[05:43:09] <roh> ds3 avr as in arduino or so for simplicity
[05:43:11] <ds3> roh: because then I'd need to BUY an avr... I have a pile of old PC MB's
[05:43:33] <roh> ds3 will be working much faster
[05:43:48] <tom3p> ds3: pick one,read the mfctr's data sheet and app notes. they work for many people ( else they would'nt be sold still... see Greyhill, P&B, opto22... )
[05:43:57] <roh> ds3 also you need to monitor the temperature somehow
[05:44:02] <ds3> MattyMatt: it is less trouble for me to order the boards with ENIG finish
[05:44:11] <roh> ds3 means you need some analog input.. or some fancy sensor
[05:44:34] <MattyMatt> ENIG = green varnish?
[05:44:36] <ds3> tom3p: I'll consider it... the plus side is i don't have to worry about an arm warning out
[05:45:10] <ds3> roh: Maxim chip + K thermo couple... perfect for a bit bang SPI from the PC
[05:45:39] <ds3> Mattymatt: no... emersion nickle with thin plating of gold on top of that
[05:46:16] <MattyMatt> posh :)
[05:46:32] <roh> ds3 i'm still sure its more hassle than gain to use a pc
[05:46:59] <ds3> roh: I thought about it and I don't think so... if I go that route, I might as well buy the kit from Sparkfun
[05:47:11] <ds3> they have a PCB for a PIC and firmware to flash it on
[05:47:13] <MattyMatt> all this gold will keep the recycling industry going
[05:47:26] <roh> ds3 there is also ready done code for such a thing i guess.. seen other pizza ovens used for that
[05:47:28] <ds3> it is like 1 micron of gold
[05:47:33] <MattyMatt> the lead-free stuff is all either 3% silver or 3% gold
[05:47:54] <ds3> roh: yep... plus I can't network it...nice thing about a PC is I can network it
[05:48:04] <roh> ds3 not really true
[05:48:22] <ds3> MattyMatt: no.... pure tin finish is RoHS acceptable
[05:48:23] <roh> there are multiple ethernet boards for avrs around.
[05:48:41] <ds3> roh: they all cost more then $0.00
[05:48:47] <roh> en28something based, wiznet based and some others, including wifi and zigbee
[05:49:04] <ds3> yes, the microchip part... I am familiar with it
[05:49:06] <MattyMatt> I think the gold stuff is for hand reworking
[05:49:27] <roh> the ssr is more expensive anyhow. for an oven one needs 1-2kw which is about 20-30E usually
[05:49:27] <ds3> it is about recycling... not going to build more stuff then I need
[05:49:51] <ds3> and if I were to do it, I'd use those ez430 boards that TI gave away
[05:49:54] <MattyMatt> * MattyMatt hoards his 60/40 multicore
[05:50:03] <ds3> roh: eh?
[05:50:28] <tom3p> i've tried out the eagle2hal, its a lot like my gEDA2hal stuff. The approaches are very similar, the problem is writing the libraries. you have to write every hal element. just time consuming and wulio (boring).
[05:50:34] <roh> the lÃoad switch. opto isolated solid state relay
[05:51:02] <ds3> http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=16596+RL
[05:51:07] <roh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_state_relay
[05:51:08] <ds3> $10
[05:51:35] <roh> ah.. small oven only?
[05:51:47] <ds3> 1500W toaster from walmart for $15
[05:51:52] <MattyMatt> toaster
[05:51:55] <roh> or are you in 230V land?
[05:51:58] <ds3> _low budget_ at work here
[05:52:02] <ds3> no, 120V
[05:52:25] <MattyMatt> toast is toast. wherever they are made they reach the same temp
[05:52:25] <roh> then an 18A relay is pretty low speced
[05:52:42] <ds3> why? 18A * 120V >>> 1500W
[05:52:55] <roh> yes. ever heard of load spikes?
[05:53:06] <jimbo8288_> so is self.emcstat.poll() the function that sends and receives information from the stat buffer? Where do I find the fields names for the stat buffer? Is periodic(iself) the main program loop? Thanks
[05:53:09] <ds3> SSR's don't tolerate that?
[05:53:28] <roh> ds3 they do. thats why one overspecs properly
[05:53:45] <MattyMatt> a resistive load doesn't produce any spikes except the power surge
[05:53:50] <roh> hm.. funny.. they dont sell <25A here it seems
[05:53:54] <ds3> roh: I don't understand... I thought the 18A figure is for continous and they will tolerate a brief overload?
[05:54:12] <roh> MattyMatt ack.. and that surge i am talking about.
[05:54:16] <ds3> MattyMatt: good luck getting anything that is purely resistive
[05:54:34] <roh> and the fact that i wouldnt be so sure the resistor in that case has the same resistance when still cold
[05:54:56] <MattyMatt> it won't. a soft-on would be nice
[05:55:42] <roh> ssr only do 0-voltage switching, means in sync with the ac, so its only a nice start, not really soft as in prewarm or so
[05:55:44] <MattyMatt> toasters are just a long strip of nichrome
[05:56:03] <roh> MattyXM: the ones here have a crystal bulb
[05:56:16] <roh> no visible wire
[05:56:40] <ds3> nichrome wire is also a bit inductive
[05:56:56] <MattyMatt> I'd avoid that. you don't need sth tuned for radiance
[05:57:15] <MattyMatt> yeah long wire is an inductor
[05:57:36] <Jymm> FSCK ME.... http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Credit-cards-newest-trick-799-apf-3359014390.html?x=0&.v=4
[05:57:43] <MattyMatt> but anyway, it's as resistive as any load ever gets
[05:57:56] <ds3> No
[05:57:57] <MattyMatt> except a light bulb
[05:58:03] <ds3> a chunk a carbon is more resistive
[05:58:10] <ds3> the RF folks have dummy loads that ismore resistive
[05:58:17] <roh> well.. its your shack you hopefully dont torch... i usually overspec by 100% if possible
[05:58:28] <ds3> hmmm
[05:58:33] <roh> and feasible.. on caps for example that can be bad
[05:58:44] <MattyMatt> buy the cheap relay, and spend the savings on a fire extinguisher
[05:59:08] <roh> ds3 http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=17155+RL 25A for 12$
[05:59:23] <MattyMatt> and one of those hi-building parachutes
[05:59:47] <ds3> roh: so you'd recommend at least 25A rating?
[06:00:03] <roh> ds3 in bat^W120Vac country yes.
[06:00:10] <tom3p> "ssr only do 0-voltage switching" ? no, ssr's are just solid state, not necc ac, not necc 0crossing trigger, lots are dc control
[06:00:18] <roh> ds3 better safe than sorry, and thats 3 bucks well spent
[06:00:55] <roh> tom3p sure.. i think we were talking about the 'hockey puk' type modular ones usualy around like these
[06:01:02] <ds3> roh: don't argument... I was looking for opinions... SSR's are new to me; I understand mechanical realys
[06:01:28] <roh> ds3 its basically all the nasty part of doing it without mechanics abstracted away into a neat plastic box
[06:01:56] <ds3> roh: *nod* it is the overspec factor
[06:02:33] <roh> some opto-coupler, filters for noise, ac 0V detection, solid state switching element. can recommend them. makes stuff more easy to build and less to do wrong when handling huge loads of ac
[06:02:59] <ds3> can they be PWM'ed?
[06:03:08] <roh> usually not.
[06:03:19] <tom3p> why pwm an on/off device?
[06:03:20] <MattyMatt> nichrome wires can tho
[06:03:24] <roh> but on some heater like that, you can do simple n-second banging.
[06:03:36] <roh> i mean.. it has some huge thermal resistance anyhow
[06:03:49] <ds3> the other direction is I do an optocoupler/triac setup
[06:03:56] <ds3> that I know will PWM fine
[06:03:56] <MattyMatt> reprap extruder does PWM on nichrome
[06:04:11] <MattyMatt> using a servo dricer
[06:04:12] <roh> but i wouldnt do that too fast (>1switch a sec) i guess.. more to be nice to the grid
[06:04:20] <ds3> hahahah
[06:04:34] <ds3> we don't have PF regs here yet, AFAIK ;)
[06:05:11] <roh> MattyMatt yes.. for 20-30W ;)
[06:05:27] <MattyMatt> so scale it up a little
[06:05:36] <ds3> a PWM setup would fit EMC's forte a bit more
[06:05:57] <roh> MattyMatt and usually they use a FET and dc. the servoamps are for steppers/dc geared motors
[06:06:21] <MattyMatt> divide the oven into zones, with 20W each
[06:07:12] <MattyMatt> you need +/- 5C I think, because some of the processes are 10C apart
[06:07:42] <roh> that shouÃld be possible even with low pwm speed
[06:07:57] <ds3> I am not modifying the oven
[06:08:25] <MattyMatt> I would. an insulated door would make it more efficient
[06:08:33] <roh> getting it cool fast enough is more tricky i guess.. the oven ive seen was having a 'flÃap' on the back opened by a model-servo and connected to a metal-fan and some 30cm of warm air-pipe into the room.
[06:08:45] <roh> to get the hot air out of the oven fast enough for the cool-down phase
[06:08:56] <ds3> this will not be another infinite deep spiral
[06:09:19] <MattyMatt> * MattyMatt craves firebricks
[06:09:40] <MattyMatt> freudian truth. I meant to say I was carving them already :)
[06:09:41] <roh> the model servo is also pwm controlled. the frequency is fixed and the pulse-length is somehow an 8bit value for the angle
[06:10:27] <MattyMatt> no 8 bit, they are usually analog
[06:11:11] <MattyMatt> the driver would tend to be digital these days
[06:11:17] <tom3p> MattyMatt: why carving fire bricks?
[06:11:51] <MattyMatt> I saw a neat design for a 900F oven in an old jewellery book
[06:12:17] <tom3p> backyard pizza dome ovens ... 1200degree
[06:12:26] <MattyMatt> and the neatest foundry I've seen used them too
[06:13:04] <MattyMatt> 8 bricks, the middle 4 with semicircles out
[06:14:25] <MattyMatt> and the best place in UK to buy bricks & refractory has a wide range of pizza ovens :)
[06:14:54] <skinnYPuP> I'll take a pizza :o)
[06:15:04] <MattyMatt> it'll never catch on here until we're properly mediterranian :)
[06:15:39] <tom3p> 75 seconds per pizza at 900 deg
[06:15:55] <MattyMatt> it's hard to care about global warming in the UK
[06:16:00] <MattyMatt> bring it on
[06:16:06] <tom3p> gnite
[06:16:10] <skinnYPuP> global warming schmobil .....
[06:16:33] <MattyMatt> gn tom3p
[06:19:23] <MattyMatt> oh global warming is happening alright.
[06:19:40] <MattyMatt> we need more smog, that used to balance the co2
[06:23:16] <MattyMatt> planting the sahara is our biggest terraforming job
[06:24:09] <MattyMatt> I favour geothermal boiling of seawater
[07:32:40] <skinnYPuP> MattyMatt, sure its happening ? Have you looked at the CRU emails ?
[07:40:42] <MattyMatt> Conservative Reactionary Union?
[07:41:00] <MattyMatt> yes I'm absolutely bloody sure
[07:41:15] <skinnYPuP> Climate research unit
[07:45:58] <MattyMatt> I don't think anyone is still arguing credibly that the world isn't heating up
[07:47:38] <skinnYPuP> idk what part of hide the decline ppl don't get
[07:48:39] <skinnYPuP> Global temps have more to do with the moisture content of the air , which benefits from particulate
[07:48:53] <skinnYPuP> or smog as you called it
[07:49:24] <eric_unterhausen> sounds like you don't understand what hide the decline means
[07:49:40] <skinnYPuP> lol, i understand ccx is a racket
[07:50:42] <eric_unterhausen> climate change denialists are idiots
[07:50:52] <eric_unterhausen> take it somewhere else
[07:51:08] <skinnYPuP> LOL to each their own
[07:51:15] <eric_unterhausen> idoit
[07:51:28] <MattyMatt> if we didn't have to share the climate, that would be true
[07:51:47] <Jymm> *ALL* of you zip it
[07:51:56] <MattyMatt> you fuck w yo planet, you fuck wit mine, sucka
[07:52:20] <MattyMatt> * MattyMatt pity tha foo
[07:52:30] <skinnYPuP> yawn ...
[07:53:28] <MattyMatt> I pity the polar bears a lot more, of course
[07:53:49] <eric_unterhausen> let's not discuss this, I can't be civil
[07:53:55] <Jymm> MattyMatt: Dude, just chill man
[07:53:57] <eric_unterhausen> not appropriate here
[07:54:25] <skinnYPuP> Thats fine , didn't mean to ruffle feathers with one question ...
[07:54:29] <MattyMatt> I said terraforming :) my seawater tunnels will be run on emc
[07:55:07] <Jymm> MattyMatt: It's not funny. Just stop already.
[09:10:28] <lilalinux_away> lilalinux_away is now known as lilalinux
[09:33:09] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[09:54:40] <MattyMatt> If I make my spindle mounting adjustable with a screw opposing a spring. which way should it spring to avoid chatter?
[09:55:19] <MattyMatt> or should I have a light spring and then an opposing lock screw?
[09:58:02] <MattyMatt> ah, I'll just have an array of random bolts pushing and pulling in various directions. no springs. I'll only need to adjust it once hopefully :)
[10:41:29] <archivist> adding springs can cause chatter
[10:46:59] <MattyMatt> yep
[10:47:54] <MattyMatt> I might do bicycle spokes like guy ropes
[10:48:11] <archivist> the usual cause is spring in the frame
[10:48:17] <MattyMatt> but that brings me back to the problem of ruining a good bike wheel :)
[10:48:41] <archivist> stop bodging
[10:49:17] <MattyMatt> I'd like to, but I'm down to what I've got at hand. the kitty is empty
[10:50:08] <archivist> I have no job at the moment but have learnt that crap assembly does not work
[10:51:59] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[10:57:15] <Valen> MattyMatt what are you trying to do?
[10:57:51] <MattyMatt> I charged ahead to get a working Z, after I lost my plans for the twin Z, but otherwise I've been careful to keep it all solid & adjustable
[10:58:00] <MattyMatt> no glued parts
[11:00:49] <MattyMatt> my Z slide has a wooden (nice oak) extension down to the spindle mount (plywood & I'm making a steel ring for the dremel-mount at the nose). The extension can be adjusted at the top (3 screws) but I'd like to adjust the mounting rings at the bottom too, to align the spindle along Z
[11:02:37] <MattyMatt> ah I got an idea. easier done than said. pics to follow
[11:04:48] <MattyMatt> * MattyMatt does
[14:28:35] <danielfalck> cradek: do you have any more pictures of your Mori? I saw the completed machine all painted nicely.
[14:30:40] <archivist> a video with it getting dirty making something ?
[14:55:12] <cradek> nope, no nice pics or videos, sorry
[14:55:29] <cradek> it's slightly apart again - I'm trying to mount an encoder to the spindle but life keeps interfering
[14:55:51] <danielfalck> what touch panel monitor did you use?
[14:57:54] <cradek> it's an elo
[14:58:03] <cradek> a real glass one
[14:58:13] <cradek> not sure the model...
[14:59:07] <archivist> I wish I knew more about the touch screen on the front of my PC
[15:07:37] <danielfalck> cradek: so when you are using 'Touchy' I assume that you don't have to log in when you turn the computer on. Is that correct?
[15:07:55] <cradek> yeah I have the mill set for auto login
[15:08:04] <danielfalck> cool
[15:08:26] <cradek> I poke the desktop icon to start emc, and later shut down the machine using the toolbar icon
[15:09:29] <danielfalck> do you plan on making emc auto start at some point?
[15:09:45] <danielfalck> so that you don't have to even turn it on from the desktop
[15:10:11] <cradek> no, I don't care about that
[15:10:35] <cradek> I have no reason to hide that it's a computer, and I might want to start emc more than once
[15:11:13] <danielfalck> I'm going to use emc at work for something and want it to start automagically
[15:11:56] <cradek> I'm sure that's possible
[15:12:23] <danielfalck> Paul helped me set it up years ago on an ancient version and I have to find my notes
[15:12:47] <cradek> I doubt any of it would be relevant today anyway
[15:13:00] <cradek> just ask the internet how to make a program start automatically in gnome
[15:13:09] <danielfalck> yes google
[15:14:15] <danielfalck> oh, I found it on linuxcnc :)
[15:14:33] <danielfalck> or a stub anyway....
[15:14:54] <danielfalck> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/common_Linux_FAQ.html#r1_1
[15:15:11] <danielfalck> ironic that I found that through google
[15:15:36] <cradek> well that looks pretty simple
[15:15:55] <danielfalck> it's a lot simpler than it was 5 years ago
[15:18:39] <cradek> so are a lot of things
[15:19:55] <danielfalck> did you reuse the servo amps on your Mori?
[15:20:25] <cradek> definitely
[15:20:42] <danielfalck> were they Yaskawa?
[15:20:42] <cradek> they are very high power
[15:20:45] <cradek> yes
[15:21:07] <danielfalck> what kind of input did you have to send to them? ±10V?
[15:21:48] <cradek> yes
[15:22:01] <cradek> velocity mode
[15:22:41] <cradek> there is no main transformer - servo supply is rectified/filtered 240 3ph
[15:22:59] <danielfalck> wow
[15:23:11] <danielfalck> big boys then
[15:23:32] <cradek> yeah it's a very fast and strong machine
[15:24:12] <cradek> rapids 900ipm accel 100ipm2 - I have it set at half those
[15:24:43] <danielfalck> does it shake the shop floor when you rapid at 900ipm?
[15:24:59] <cradek> but I had it cranked up that far to see it... I didn't like how much the floor moved.
[15:25:17] <cradek> yeah, a lot.
[15:25:28] <SWPadnos> 9 seconds to full speed? that seems slow
[15:25:35] <SWPadnos> (high full speed though)
[15:25:46] <cradek> heh, I meant 100 ips2
[15:25:54] <SWPadnos> ah :)
[15:26:18] <SWPadnos> I was probably off by a factor of 60 in the other direction anyway
[15:26:20] <cradek> 15ips, 100ips2
[15:26:29] <SWPadnos> ok, that's quick :)
[15:26:45] <SWPadnos> do the lights dim at those settings?
[15:27:35] <cradek> not that I noticed
[15:29:01] <cradek> I have the shop lights coming from the main house panel for safety
[15:30:04] <cradek> I've never tripped the subpanel breaker but it's sure possible, and I don't want it to go dark
[15:30:25] <cradek> heat + compressor + mill = a lot
[15:34:43] <skunkworks> how many amp breaker feeds the sub-pannel?
[15:35:50] <cradek> I don't remember
[15:41:53] <skunkworks> we are running the whole house on a 100a breaker from the garage.. so far so good. been a few weeks now.
[15:42:20] <cradek> I think our whole house is 100 or 150
[15:42:31] <cradek> subpanel might be 50?
[15:42:38] <danielfalck> skunkworks: what kind of business? mills/lathes?
[15:42:44] <danielfalck> or servers
[15:42:55] <skunkworks> business?
[15:43:11] <danielfalck> oh sorry
[15:43:21] <danielfalck> misread (thinking about my garage)
[15:43:36] <skunkworks> heh
[15:43:48] <danielfalck> dreaming about a nicer shop....
[15:44:22] <skunkworks> the house only had a 125 amp service.. so descided to move the service entrence to the garage and back feed the house. so in the garage I have a nice new 200a service
[15:45:53] <skunkworks> though it's tempting for some reason to flip the breaker when I am in the garage and the wife is in the house.. ;)
[15:53:43] <skunkworks> skiing was a success.
[15:53:49] <skunkworks> no broken bones.
[15:54:03] <skunkworks> new skis worked well.
[15:54:22] <cradek> is everything I do, if I don't break bones, a success?
[15:54:35] <cradek> I never thought of it that way, but that's very liberating
[15:54:39] <skunkworks> heh
[15:54:40] <cradek> (glad you had a good time)
[16:22:09] <skunkworks> that is actually on of many ways to measure success..
[16:22:13] <skunkworks> *one
[16:22:42] <skunkworks> making it this far in life with all of ones fingers is another.
[16:32:53] <skunkworks> * skunkworks counts them again to be sure
[16:45:27] <cradek> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkDD03yeLnU
[16:47:17] <skunkworks> yikes
[17:02:10] <lilalinux> lilalinux is now known as lilalinux_away
[17:04:53] <lilalinux_away> lilalinux_away is now known as lilalinux
[17:16:42] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li8Hiwbc664
[17:17:21] <LawrenceG> looking...
[17:19:13] <LawrenceG> VERY slow loading this morning
[17:19:51] <LawrenceG> description looks interesting,... still not loaded....
[17:20:31] <LawrenceG> thats better
[17:35:00] <Dave911_> Dave911_ is now known as Dave911
[18:35:31] <KimK_afk> KimK_afk is now known as KimK
[18:41:54] <issy> hi all
[19:16:01] <Dave911_> Dave911_ is now known as Dave911
[20:36:08] <Dave911_> Dave911_ is now known as Dave911
[20:42:08] <KimK> skunkworks: Hi Sam, John said to me earlier (he's not here now) that he and I are not far away from you. Would you be up for a visit sometime?
[20:51:16] <frallzor> blinddate? =)
[21:12:12] <EbiDK> EbiDK is now known as EbiDK|AWAY
[21:17:38] <skunkworks> KimK: you guys are in the cities - right? We are near lacrosse.
[21:19:22] <awallin> what's an U-DIMM DDR2 memory stick?
[21:19:28] <awallin> just normal DDR2?
[21:20:22] <archivist> is that a lappy size one
[21:20:39] <SWPadnos> no, that's SO-DIMM
[21:20:57] <SWPadnos> it looks like UDUMM just menas that it's unregistered/unbufferes
[21:20:59] <SWPadnos> d
[21:21:05] <SWPadnos> like most consumer DIMMs
[21:21:21] <SWPadnos> err, UDIMM
[21:21:28] <awallin> I'm thinking about an Atom 330 motherboard for emc2/lathe-control
[21:21:57] <frallzor> your thinking works properly then
[21:22:34] <awallin> are there adaptors for using an SD-card (or CF) as a SATA hard-drive?
[21:22:52] <frallzor> for cf there is
[21:23:34] <SWPadnos> if you want to compare the pinouts of 240-pin USIMM and DIM, look at pages 7-9 here: http://download.micron.com/pdf/technotes/ddr2/TN4703.pdf
[21:23:38] <SWPadnos> gah
[21:23:40] <SWPadnos> UDIMM
[21:23:48] <SWPadnos> I don't feel like looking at all 240 pins myself
[21:25:16] <awallin> SWP's post got me thinking about the atom: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.emc.user/18073
[21:25:29] <awallin> does the mini-ITX board work with a normal ATX psu?
[21:27:37] <SWPadnos> yes
[21:28:05] <SWPadnos> in fact, the D945GCLF2 needs a P4 4-pin extra power plug as well
[21:28:32] <awallin> hm, a small case would really require a pci-riser thingy to fold my m5i20-card to be parallel with the motherboard...
[21:28:50] <SWPadnos> may I recommend the M300 or M300-LCD?
[21:28:59] <SWPadnos> http://www.mini-box.com
[21:29:25] <SWPadnos> they come with a PCI riser card that does just that, and they're about the smallest case I've seen that still has room for a PCI card
[21:29:49] <SWPadnos> there's also a USB CF adapter, which I believe the system can boot from
[21:30:05] <awallin> I wonder if it would be cheaper for me to just buy online from the US...
[21:30:31] <SWPadnos> it wouldn't surprise me
[21:30:49] <SWPadnos> those cases do need a picoPSU or similar though - there's not a lot of room for a power supply in there
[21:31:16] <SWPadnos> the PicoPSU runs off DC, 12V, 12-25V, or 12-36V depending onwhich model you get
[21:37:05] <skunkworks> http://imagebin.ca/img/I4ld2q.jpg
[21:38:34] <Jymmm> skunkworks: Love how you have it sitting on a antistatic bag
[21:38:52] <skunkworks> no - it is sitting on a book. sort of.
[21:38:53] <skunkworks> ;)
[21:39:15] <Jymmm> skunkworks: Well, how's the latency on it?
[21:39:34] <skunkworks> I am running koalla
[21:39:37] <Jymmm> skunkworks: and what SATA card is that?
[21:39:49] <skunkworks> some cheap pci card
[21:39:50] <Jymmm> eSATA
[21:39:55] <skunkworks> syba
[21:39:56] <Jymmm> k
[21:40:08] <skunkworks> sil3124
[21:40:14] <Jymmm> ok
[21:40:34] <frallzor> nice skunkworks, that bag is a nice chassis =P
[21:42:09] <Jymmm> skunkworks: Did you check the thermal grease on BOTH heatsinks?
[21:42:33] <skunkworks> seems like it is working good. used mdadm to setup softraid. I can copy a 1gb file over the network in about 25 seconds.
[21:42:37] <skunkworks> no - not yet.
[21:45:19] <skunkworks> I can copy the same file from raid to onboard sata drive in about 10 seconds
[21:48:15] <Jymmm> skunkworks: Ok, now load up a 2GB 3D Blender animation and render it =)
[21:49:04] <skunkworks> this is only for file serving
[21:49:06] <skunkworks> ;)
[21:49:35] <Jymmm> skunkworks: No, that's the thing you using as a bench is for =)
[21:49:49] <danielfalck> are you going to mount it all in the breaker panel that it's sitting on ? :)
[21:49:50] <skunkworks> heh - that too
[21:50:15] <Jymmm> danielfalck: That's not a breaker panel, that's a 3U server
[21:50:24] <danielfalck> ah
[21:50:35] <skunkworks> those are some old xseries ibm servers.
[21:50:37] <Jymmm> IBM if I'm not mistaken
[21:50:53] <skunkworks> we are still using one for 'gasp' netware
[21:51:09] <skunkworks> so I wanted a few extra for parts
[21:51:11] <Jymmm> Gawd... I've been doing this shit for far too long.
[21:51:32] <skunkworks> heh
[21:51:54] <Jymmm> which nw version?
[21:51:59] <skunkworks> 4.12
[21:52:04] <skunkworks> ooollllldddd
[21:52:24] <Jymmm> Hey, ther'es nothing wrong with that.... has cool accounting features
[21:52:36] <skunkworks> and it 'just works'
[21:52:53] <skunkworks> I had it run for years without rebooting.
[21:53:10] <SWPadnos> netware has (more or less) always had the best permissions hierarchy
[21:53:43] <skunkworks> yes - it sucks going to windows when you started with netware.
[21:54:10] <skunkworks> 4.11 - sorry
[21:54:56] <skunkworks> that xseries was about the newest I could find that still had hardware drivers for 4.11
[21:55:14] <skunkworks> ebay is great
[21:55:25] <Jymmm> lol
[21:56:19] <KimK> skunkworks: Yes, we're NW of Minneapolis. John seems to have an idea where you are (I think, he's not back yet).
[21:56:55] <skunkworks> The shop is a mess - but I am sure dad would like to see you guys again.
[21:57:19] <skunkworks> (trying to shoe-horn a car lift in)
[21:57:35] <Jymmm> skunkworks: sawzall
[21:57:45] <skunkworks> I think that was used also
[21:57:55] <Jymmm> skunkworks: wait, you said CAR?!
[21:58:09] <Jymmm> not van?
[21:58:28] <skunkworks> automobile lift
[21:58:38] <Jymmm> never seen one
[22:00:00] <skunkworks> http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/257318016/automobile_lifts/showimage.html
[22:00:18] <skunkworks> something like that
[22:01:02] <Jymmm> OH! a shop car lift. I thought a lift for wheelchairs
[22:01:30] <skunkworks> picture is worth a few words. ;)
[22:03:53] <Jymmm> skunkworks: as flimbsy as they look, they are pretty sturdy.
[22:04:12] <KimK> Yes, those car lifts can be handy. A friend of mine put one in about a year or so ago and he's very happy with it. I could ask him what brand it is if you'd like.
[22:04:24] <skunkworks> this was out of a local garage... so it is commercial
[22:04:40] <KimK> Oh, you have it already, OK, nevermind.
[22:04:54] <skunkworks> yes - again - ebay. ;)
[22:08:09] <KimK> I'll chat with John (probably tomorrow) and get back to you later about setting something up. I didn't ask John but I'm sure you guys would be welcome to visit here too sometime.
[22:18:56] <andypugh> Anyone know a way to clear out the rtai_sched and rtai_hal modues when EMC doesn't clean up properly? The only way I know of involves walking out to the garage, through the snow...
[22:19:21] <SWPadnos> sudo /etc/init.d/realtime stop
[22:19:34] <SWPadnos> if that doesn't work, then you'll need a bigger gun
[22:19:36] <SWPadnos> bbl
[22:20:41] <andypugh> Thanks, looks like the bigger gun....
[22:21:18] <andypugh> ERROR: Removing 'rtai_sched': Device or resource is busy
[22:35:40] <andypugh> Can I set the state of an IO pin directly in a HAL file?
[22:36:27] <andypugh> I want different configs to set different hardware options, but don't want to link them to ui buttons or built0in pins
[22:44:42] <MattyMatt> somebody just asked if stepper psu needs to be regulated? shall I tell him no?
[22:45:12] <andypugh> Seems reasonable
[22:45:16] <MattyMatt> ignore first ? mark
[22:45:56] <MattyMatt> ah, I was hoping for a definitive answer, before I start FUDding :)
[22:46:17] <andypugh> Considering that the stepper will be running at several times rated voltage, a 10% sag under load is of little consequence.
[22:46:19] <cradek> andypugh: sure, use setp
[22:46:49] <andypugh> cradek: Thanks, I found out how. I was hoping to name the signal, but it didn't like that.
[22:47:29] <andypugh> I wanted to do net signalname => gpio.pin and then setp signalname 1 but that was frowned upon
[22:48:35] <cradek> sets
[22:48:49] <andypugh> Aha!
[22:49:08] <cradek> the halcmd man page is a pretty decent reference for these kinds of questions
[22:49:24] <cradek> sets signame value
[22:49:26] <cradek> (set signal) Sets the value of signal signame to value.
[22:49:27] <cradek> ...
[22:50:09] <andypugh> Yes, sorry. I had thought that setp was the only one, like net replaced linkp and links
[22:50:33] <cradek> actually sets is the older one
[22:51:00] <cradek> and that wasn't original - you had to use a 'constant' component to generate the value for a signal :-P
[22:53:43] <andypugh> Next annoying question: When you turn on the machine in axis, the axis.n.amp-enable-out pins go high. Is there a similar signal that could be sensibly used to enable the power to the VFD (not the start/stop, just the power to the unit). I could use halui.machine.is-on but that seems a little inappropriate
[22:54:30] <cradek> what do you mean similar? you could of course use the same signal
[22:54:44] <cradek> unless you want it to come on at a different time - and if so, what time?
[22:54:58] <andypugh> I answered my own question, I think. I just found a spindle-enable signal
[22:55:34] <cradek> you don't want to switch the vfd's input power except in emergency - see its manual
[22:56:40] <andypugh> I am setting up a number of different geometries (it can be used X,Z as a lathe, X,Y,Z, A or X,Y,Z,B or X,Y,Z,C)
[22:57:11] <andypugh> Indeed, I want the software e-stop to power-down the VFD like the HW ones do.
[22:57:30] <andypugh> So, I need to find a signal to turn it on, too.
[22:58:16] <andypugh> (I could, of course, simply use estop-out)
[22:58:26] <cradek> yeah seems like the estop output
[22:59:34] <andypugh> I was intending to link it to the on/off button function, not the estop button though.
[23:00:45] <andypugh> But I guess the amp-enable signals originate from the machine.is-on pin, so using that is probably fine
[23:01:07] <cradek> yeah I bet those go together
[23:01:26] <cradek> just tap in to one of the amp-enable ones. those are realtime. halui isn't
[23:02:50] <andypugh> I feel I should have an OR block on all the axes, though that is probably silly as I don't think there are any configs without an X axis, even if that is the Z axis driver in lathe mode
[23:03:41] <cradek> they all go on and off together anyway (no I don't know why there is more than one then - it's just always been that way)
[23:06:02] <andypugh> Ah, yes, good point. I was getting hung up on name rather than behaviour.
[23:28:18] <frallzor> fuck I feel like shit..