#emc | Logs for 2009-12-03

[00:00:06] <danimal_garage> arg
[00:00:23] <celeron55> 0 ohms between stepper terminals doesn't sound too good 8)
[00:00:44] <Valen> whats the problem danimal?
[00:00:53] <andypugh> Should be an ohm or three
[00:01:06] <andypugh> You on a voltage range?
[00:01:31] <danimal_garage> ok i checked with a different meter
[00:02:05] <celeron55> the cheapest meters aren't able to measure under 20 ohms or so
[00:02:13] <danimal_garage> it's .8 across 5 and 4, and .6 across 5 and 2, or 4 and 2
[00:02:34] <danimal_garage> same with 1,3,and 6
[00:02:37] <danimal_garage> same pattern
[00:03:19] <andypugh> 5 and 4 is correct then. And you need a better meter
[00:03:45] <danimal_garage> what, 3 crappy meters dont equal 1 good one?
[00:03:50] <andypugh> Though that sounds surprisingly low
[00:04:08] <andypugh> But are these huge steppers?
[00:04:09] <celeron55> hmm, that's over an ohm per full coil, though
[00:04:35] <danimal_garage> yes, nema 43
[00:04:44] <danimal_garage> 9.2 amp
[00:04:56] <celeron55> then it sounds like right
[00:07:33] <danimal_garage> yea
[00:07:36] <danimal_garage> hmm
[00:08:05] <Valen> if you have blown a winding its not normally that hard to re-wind it
[00:08:16] <danimal_garage> i wonder if my stepper drives are getting too warm
[00:08:38] <danimal_garage> do you think that would cause issues?
[00:08:40] <andypugh> I might try with a NEMA 43, didn't seem worth it with the 23a
[00:09:00] <archivist_emc> 30 ish deg C is only warm
[00:09:00] <Valen> might be different for steppers but you cant usually measure the resistance well with any meter
[00:09:00] <andypugh> They might be current-limiting
[00:09:04] <Valen> I'd be happy if the motors gradually heated to 60c
[00:09:36] <danimal_garage> i doubt they'll get over 100f
[00:10:25] <Valen> yeah that shouldn't bother them
[00:10:31] <Valen> so what is the actual problem your seeing?
[00:10:44] <danimal_garage> missing step
[00:10:52] <danimal_garage> and it's slow
[00:11:01] <Valen> got a scope?
[00:11:06] <danimal_garage> nope
[00:11:10] <Valen> ahh
[00:11:12] <andypugh> Big old step machines are slow.
[00:11:13] <danimal_garage> yea
[00:11:29] <Valen> perhaps put the meter into ac volts mode then and spin the motor
[00:12:09] <tlab2> tlab2 is now known as tlab
[00:12:39] <danimal_garage> my meters arent all that hot either
[00:13:02] <Valen> yeah, you will probably pick up AC volts better than ultra low resistances
[00:13:11] <Valen> is it on all axies or just one?
[00:13:25] <danimal_garage> i'm just a machinist, i dont have all the cool toys like you guys
[00:13:31] <danimal_garage> x and y
[00:13:39] <danimal_garage> z isnt bad since it's quill feed
[00:13:40] <Valen> so its the same on both?
[00:13:48] <danimal_garage> more on x than y
[00:13:57] <Valen> has it degraded or is it just crappy since you started?
[00:14:07] <danimal_garage> crappy since the beginning
[00:15:27] <Valen> got any photos of stuff?
[00:16:21] <danimal_garage> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v20/danielwilcox/DSCN0546.jpg
[00:16:26] <danimal_garage> thats about all
[00:16:32] <danimal_garage> i can get more later on
[00:16:38] <Valen> yeah just getting a feel
[00:16:47] <Valen> direct drive or grated?
[00:16:52] <Valen> nice mill btw
[00:16:52] <danimal_garage> direct
[00:16:56] <danimal_garage> thanks!
[00:16:57] <Valen> geared sorry lol
[00:17:14] <danimal_garage> it had a bandit control on it
[00:17:41] <danimal_garage> direct drive
[00:17:50] <Valen> what voltage are you running the steppers at?
[00:17:55] <danimal_garage> 45v
[00:18:05] <danimal_garage> same power supply that was in the original controller
[00:18:33] <danimal_garage> do you think i might be running them at too fine of a step rate?
[00:18:59] <Valen> what drivers are you using, step rate and IO method?
[00:19:04] <Valen> (parr port or what)
[00:19:57] <danimal_garage> leadshine m880a
[00:20:05] <danimal_garage> mesa 5i20 i/o
[00:20:12] <Valen> havent heard of the leadshine
[00:20:22] <Valen> with a mesa card you should be fairly right
[00:20:24] <danimal_garage> chineese
[00:20:40] <Valen> whats it sound like?
[00:20:44] <danimal_garage> quiet
[00:20:59] <danimal_garage> little hum but not as bad as the stock drives
[00:21:02] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[00:21:24] <danimal_garage> brb, gunna check the step rate
[00:22:58] <danimal_garage> 1600
[00:23:45] <danimal_garage> think thats too fine?
[00:24:17] <danimal_garage> i'm not sure if the motor is effected by that or if it's mostly a drive issue
[00:25:23] <Valen> theres step rate and settings in the controller for micro stepping I'd presume?
[00:25:57] <danimal_garage> yea
[00:26:34] <Valen> http://www.vapourforge.com/mill/IMAG0031.jpg is ours
[00:26:47] <Valen> we are using 500W scooter motors an linear scales
[00:27:01] <Valen> whats the micro step rate?
[00:27:54] <danimal_garage> 1600
[00:28:27] <Valen> I meant the driver divides full steps up into segments how small
[00:31:17] <danimal_garage> the smallest appears to be 51200
[00:31:21] <danimal_garage> per rev
[00:31:37] <Valen> I'd try reducing that
[00:31:40] <danimal_garage> not sure if i follow you
[00:31:52] <Valen> you know about microstepping?
[00:32:03] <danimal_garage> yea, the motor has 200 steps/rev
[00:32:19] <danimal_garage> it's microstepped down to 1600
[00:32:51] <Valen> and you just happen to have the step rate the same as the microstep size?
[00:33:38] <danimal_garage> sorry you lost me there
[00:33:54] <Valen> you set microstepping on the controller not in emc
[00:34:15] <danimal_garage> both
[00:34:28] <Valen> emc doesn't know about microsteps
[00:34:29] <Valen> it cant
[00:34:45] <danimal_garage> my ini file is configured for 1600 steps/rev
[00:34:45] <Valen> it just sees it as a really really fine stepper motor
[00:34:51] <danimal_garage> yea
[00:34:58] <celeron55> it divides a step in 8 microsteps then
[00:35:02] <celeron55> the driver
[00:35:06] <danimal_garage> yea
[00:35:10] <danimal_garage> exactly
[00:35:22] <celeron55> that's what was the original question :P
[00:35:25] <danimal_garage> sorry, i'm slow sometimes
[00:35:42] <danimal_garage> er most of the time
[00:36:03] <Valen> thats not too bad
[00:36:08] <danimal_garage> i didnt think so
[00:36:19] <Valen> when it drops steps does it do it all the time?
[00:36:31] <danimal_garage> more or less all the time
[00:36:32] <Valen> at a certain speed or something?
[00:36:42] <danimal_garage> mostly heavy cuts i tihnk
[00:37:12] <danimal_garage> like if i break an endmill, it most definately jumps step
[00:37:22] <danimal_garage> even if it's a 3/16" endmill
[00:37:47] <Valen> sounds like your lacking power
[00:38:48] <danimal_garage> my stepper drive's manual doesnt say anything about dir hold
[00:39:07] <danimal_garage> so i kinda guessed on that one
[00:39:36] <danimal_garage> i have it set the same as the step hold i believe
[00:39:45] <danimal_garage> could this be an issue
[00:39:53] <danimal_garage> i just remember that when looking at my ini
[00:40:30] <danimal_garage> actually i take that back
[00:40:35] <danimal_garage> it's set at 6000
[00:40:54] <danimal_garage> step len and step hold is 2200
[00:41:08] <danimal_garage> dir setup is 6500
[00:45:11] <celeron55> sounds like big enough for most things
[00:45:47] <danimal_garage> thats what she said
[00:46:39] <celeron55> but if it loses steps only when doing heavy cuts, it's because of having not enough torque/power
[00:46:54] <danimal_garage> yea
[00:47:09] <danimal_garage> so in short, time for servos?
[00:48:45] <celeron55> well, you could try more amps for the steppers
[00:49:40] <danimal_garage> so bigger drives, or bigger powewr supply?
[00:49:49] <celeron55> if they're only 34°C, you can use many times of what you currently have, i guess
[00:50:08] <danimal_garage> yea
[00:52:20] <danimal_garage> power supply looks like it's 20a
[00:52:51] <celeron55> what settings does the drive have? or does it have any
[00:53:29] <danimal_garage> it has current, microstep, and half current hold settings
[00:53:39] <danimal_garage> current settings are maxed
[00:53:55] <celeron55> what is the current setting then
[00:54:06] <danimal_garage> 7.2a i think
[00:54:42] <danimal_garage> 7.8a
[00:54:46] <danimal_garage> max
[00:56:29] <celeron55> i wonder if there's a speed-torque curve for the steppers somewhere
[00:57:10] <celeron55> i don't really know what it's usually like for that big ones
[00:57:36] <danimal_garage> i doubt there's anything, they're 30 years old and superior electric didnt know anythnig about them when i called
[00:57:49] <danimal_garage> they're superior electric motors
[01:01:32] <celeron55> based on some random google searches, i'd guess they give half the stall torque at 200rpm
[01:02:38] <celeron55> if they're anything like the current nema 43 ones specs-wise
[01:02:58] <danimal_garage> they're 1125 oz/in holding torque
[01:03:27] <danimal_garage> it's gotta be the drives
[01:04:20] <Valen> yeah, they sound a little light
[01:04:29] <celeron55> hmm
[01:04:34] <Valen> you can do servo's fairly cheaply
[01:04:41] <danimal_garage> i'm seeing 1.6A at the motor
[01:04:42] <Valen> do they give the max current on the motors?
[01:04:47] <danimal_garage> 9.2A
[01:04:48] <Valen> thats nothin
[01:04:56] <celeron55> 1125oz/in is about what nema 43s are currently, too
[01:05:02] <danimal_garage> it's sitting idle
[01:05:11] <Valen> with steppers it doesn't matter
[01:05:16] <danimal_garage> motors are connected
[01:05:45] <celeron55> you see 1.6A on the motors?
[01:06:00] <Valen> thats way low
[01:06:07] <danimal_garage> 1.12A actually
[01:06:10] <Valen> hmm
[01:06:15] <danimal_garage> per coil
[01:06:22] <Valen> actually he will need to measure the current in each coil
[01:06:33] <Valen> you should be seeing 5 or 6 A probably
[01:06:41] <Valen> whats the coil voltage?
[01:06:52] <celeron55> yes, measure both coils of the motr
[01:06:54] <celeron55> +o
[01:07:16] <Casainho> Does anyone know if EMC2 found "M108 S13.0" and executes a M108 scritp, if it passes the S13.0 as an argument to M108 script?
[01:07:17] <danimal_garage> 2.7v
[01:07:44] <celeron55> danimal_garage: what about the other coil?
[01:07:47] <Valen> lol your motor is pulling 4W per coil
[01:07:48] <danimal_garage> same
[01:07:53] <Valen> 8W in total
[01:08:04] <Casainho> does always EMC2 pass all arguments to Mxxx scripts?
[01:08:11] <danimal_garage> i have headphones pulling more power than that
[01:08:16] <Valen> our servo's are pulling ~200W or so when moving
[01:08:21] <Valen> unloaded
[01:08:22] <celeron55> 8W sounds like 34°C indeed
[01:08:37] <celeron55> try to get the drives supply more current or get new drives
[01:08:38] <Valen> especially with that ^2 term in heat disipation
[01:08:56] <Valen> IE at 60C you will push out 4x the heat of 30C
[01:09:40] <celeron55> that's if the room temperature is 0°C
[01:09:40] <danimal_garage> i dont know how to get the drives to supply more current
[01:10:20] <Valen> http://www.leadshineusa.com/Show_Product.asp?id=196&B_id=
[01:10:29] <Valen> 7.8 A 5.6 A OFF OFF OFF
[01:10:44] <danimal_garage> only thing i can think of is using the old drives, but they have some weird quadrature input from what i read
[01:10:55] <danimal_garage> that's where it's set Valen
[01:11:10] <Valen> try changing it, see if the current changes
[01:11:24] <celeron55> what kind of current meter are you using?
[01:11:29] <celeron55> can you trust it? :P
[01:11:47] <Valen> also the meter will introduce its own resistance which can reduce the current flow
[01:12:03] <Valen> although the 2.7v across the coil says something is wrong
[01:12:08] <celeron55> also, the current is probably pwm switched which could confuse some meters
[01:12:16] <celeron55> and so is voltage
[01:12:35] <Valen> should be high enough that the inductance of the coil should smooth it out
[01:13:00] <Valen> does it make a low pitched whine? (just sitting still)
[01:13:19] <celeron55> it will wobble at least a bit anyway (shouldn't make big measuring errors, though)
[01:13:35] <andypugh> 2.7V / 0.8 ohms sounds wrong, yes
[01:14:28] <danimal_garage> it makes a little buzz
[01:14:46] <danimal_garage> my meter seems to measure current pretty well
[01:14:57] <Valen> really low frequency PWM?
[01:15:43] <celeron55> the drive also seems to have some "Self-adjustment technology"
[01:16:00] <andypugh> Casainho You could try calling your M108 script as a numbered subroutine, that will definitely pass a parameter as #1, #2 etc
[01:16:16] <Casainho> andypugh: ok. thanks
[01:16:31] <celeron55> which might mean it will alter the current if it's standing still, or something
[01:16:31] <andypugh> Let me find a link, it's a bit involved
[01:16:55] <Valen> sounds dubious
[01:17:26] <Valen> danimal_garage Servos are nice ;-> and you have the mesa card already ;->
[01:17:52] <andypugh> Casainho: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?SubProgramFiles
[01:17:52] <danimal_garage> the current is 2a when moving
[01:17:59] <Valen> and you can get more power out of their driver boards http://www.vapourforge.com/mill/IMAG0072.jpg ;->
[01:18:03] <Valen> hmm
[01:18:11] <Valen> measure the current *into* the driver ?
[01:18:23] <Valen> that should be smoother and will give a wattage out fairly easily
[01:18:24] <danimal_garage> 20a
[01:18:32] <celeron55> you can't really measure the current when moving
[01:18:39] <Valen> thats the psu rating not the actual current draw
[01:19:01] <andypugh> I think that O108 call [12.345] will call your file (called 108) and pass it the parameter 12.345. But I might be wrong, and can't test it right now
[01:19:11] <celeron55> well, maybe if you run it at something like 50 steps/second and use the AC setting of the meter
[01:19:33] <danimal_garage> i checked the amps with my meter and it said 20a
[01:19:49] <Valen> at 48 volts?
[01:19:54] <danimal_garage> yea
[01:20:00] <Valen> how did you check the amps?
[01:20:09] <andypugh> There is a lot of power not going into the motor there
[01:20:19] <spasticteapot> What sort of drillbit do I want to cut holes into 1/4" steel?
[01:20:20] <celeron55> how much does it say when it stands still?
[01:20:34] <Valen> spasticteapot a round one?
[01:20:37] <andypugh> How big are the holes?
[01:21:12] <spasticteapot> Up to 1/2"
[01:21:20] <spasticteapot> I have a drill press with a 500W motor
[01:21:20] <danimal_garage> power supply gives 20a with nothing hooked up
[01:21:25] <andypugh> ordinary HSS twist drills then
[01:21:31] <spasticteapot> danimal_garage: Say what?
[01:21:46] <spasticteapot> andypugh: Won't they go dull almost instantly?
[01:21:51] <andypugh> No
[01:21:55] <spasticteapot> Huh.
[01:22:05] <andypugh> And when they eventualy do, sharpen them
[01:22:34] <Casainho> roh: my extruder already works
[01:22:34] <spasticteapot> ....lame as this is, may I ask how I do that?
[01:22:39] <Casainho> roh: :-)
[01:22:51] <andypugh> Make sure that they are High Speed Steel, not cheese.
[01:22:57] <danimal_garage> mmmm cheese
[01:23:11] <celeron55> danimal_garage: but how much current goes to the drive when it doesn't turn the motor?
[01:23:23] <danimal_garage> 1.2a
[01:23:25] <andypugh> http://www.woodcraft.com/Articles/Articles.aspx?articleid=267
[01:23:36] <Valen> danimal_garage are you measuring the "amps" by putting your meter across both terminals of the power supply and setting it to amps mode?
[01:24:07] <spasticteapot> Is this a usable object for sharpening bits?
[01:24:08] <spasticteapot> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=98061&xcamp=google&utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=cpc&zmam=33951326&zmas=12&zmac=112&zmap=98061
[01:24:21] <spasticteapot> Valen: I'm surprised his meter didn't catch on fire.
[01:24:26] <Valen> spasticteapot you can drill a lot of holes before it goes blunt
[01:24:31] <andypugh> Absolutely, it says so on the label :-)
[01:24:50] <danimal_garage> it arced pretty bad
[01:25:00] <Valen> thats cos it was a dead short
[01:25:05] <spasticteapot> Can anyone recommend a good brand of inexpensive drill bit?
[01:25:09] <andypugh> No
[01:25:20] <Valen> inside you meter is a bit of wire with a measured cut in it
[01:25:35] <andypugh> Sorry, but decent ones cost a bit.
[01:25:40] <Valen> when you are in amps mode the meter measures the voltage drop across that bit of wire
[01:26:00] <Valen> so basically you just put a piece of wire across the power supply
[01:26:06] <danimal_garage> nice
[01:26:10] <andypugh> But a $25 set of 15 will last you decades
[01:26:11] <danimal_garage> thats gotta be healthy
[01:26:25] <Valen> usually you will find smoke by doing that
[01:26:38] <danimal_garage> so how am i supposed to check it?
[01:26:40] <Valen> don't try and measure the amps of a wall socket ok ;->
[01:26:46] <Valen> you never do that for a start
[01:27:07] <Valen> you put the meter in the line between the power supply and the load
[01:27:15] <danimal_garage> ah ok
[01:27:28] <Valen> odds are your supply was putting out 40 or more amps and your meter was just maxed out
[01:27:41] <danimal_garage> so is my 2a reading not correct?
[01:27:43] <spasticteapot> andypugh: That's what I'd consider "cheap".
[01:27:46] <danimal_garage> on the motor?
[01:27:51] <Valen> I wouldn't trust the current reading on that meter any more until you check it
[01:28:03] <Valen> how did you measure that?
[01:28:13] <spasticteapot> danimal_garage: Was it a good meter?
[01:28:16] <danimal_garage> across a+ and a-
[01:28:24] <celeron55> when measuring current, the current to be measured has to be fed through the meter
[01:28:26] <spasticteapot> To measure current, you generally want to put the meter in SERIES with the object being measured.
[01:28:28] <Valen> you know what volts and amps are?
[01:28:29] <andypugh> Cobalt steel is good, TiN is a pretty colour and pointless
[01:28:32] <danimal_garage> extech... probably an $70 meter
[01:28:37] <spasticteapot> VOLTS are measured in PARALELL.'
[01:28:39] <andypugh> But this set looks good: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=36891
[01:29:12] <cradek> andypugh: nah
[01:29:15] <spasticteapot> That's not too bad.
[01:29:19] <danimal_garage> yea i know what volts and amps are, i just didnt know how my meter worked
[01:29:21] <cradek> don't buy drills at HF, they're useless
[01:29:35] <andypugh> Surely not all of them?
[01:29:36] <spasticteapot> My drill press is American-made.
[01:29:51] <cradek> look at the points on them before you buy. If you can tell by eye they're off center or incorrectly split, leave them on the shelf
[01:29:51] <Valen> how many holes are you trying to drill?
[01:29:53] <danimal_garage> so is mine.. i have a very old delta
[01:29:59] <spasticteapot> Valen: Quite a few.
[01:30:04] <Valen> define that
[01:30:13] <andypugh> If you can buy some drill bits made in Sheffield you will be OK
[01:30:17] <cradek> I love the PTD 135 split point screw machine drills
[01:30:31] <spasticteapot> I guess not that many by a machinist's standards - I'm trying to make some money fabbing enclosures for DIY audio enthusiasts.
[01:30:32] <Valen> are you doing production of a few hundred parts or just doing normal home shop stuff?
[01:30:42] <andypugh> Yeah, that set is cobalt steel split-point.
[01:31:09] <cradek> spasticteapot: do you only need a few drill sizes? you can buy good ones then, and save frustration
[01:31:11] <Valen> I'd suggest getting a set of cheap ones then any you wear out fast replace with a cobalt bit
[01:31:26] <spasticteapot> Good idea.
[01:31:30] <Valen> If your only doing Al its not going to matter anyway
[01:31:46] <spasticteapot> Valen: Yes, but I'm making them out of 1/4" steel.
[01:32:04] <cradek> if it's not too important that your holes be the right size or in the right place (and not drilling deep), the HF might be fine
[01:32:08] <Valen> should still be ok for a fair while
[01:32:13] <spasticteapot> There's actually some method to my madness on this one.
[01:32:26] <cradek> 1/4 ... wow
[01:32:27] <spasticteapot> cradek: Not too much precision is required for these - it just has to look good.
[01:32:32] <spasticteapot> Or 3/16.
[01:32:36] <spasticteapot> Thick steel either way.
[01:32:46] <andypugh> Nah, that's thin
[01:32:46] <Valen> danimal_garage so you know how to measure volts and amps now?
[01:32:53] <spasticteapot> Say, does anyone know if I can use a kiln to anneal steel?
[01:32:55] <cradek> 1/8 aluminum is plenty strong enough for panels - 1/4 steel is nuts
[01:33:03] <danimal_garage> yes lol
[01:33:12] <spasticteapot> cradek: Yes, but the steel is already in the right shape and looks spiffy.
[01:33:16] <Valen> I'll tell you what I'd do if you want steel, get it plasma cut from a CnC cutter
[01:33:16] <danimal_garage> so i need to recheck my motor, huh
[01:33:21] <Valen> yeah
[01:33:43] <spasticteapot> From what I understand, I need to heat steel to around 750-850 degrees to anneal it.
[01:33:46] <Valen> we cant buy steel for the price we can get it cut from the plasma cutter mobs
[01:33:57] <andypugh> Why do you want to anneal it?
[01:34:02] <Valen> I would avoid doing that spasticteapot, cos it'll warp like a bitch
[01:34:06] <spasticteapot> To make it easier to drill.
[01:34:08] <spasticteapot> Valen: Really?
[01:34:10] <andypugh> Hot-rolled sheet is annealed anyway
[01:34:18] <tom3p> danimal http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-measure-current-with-a-multimeter-189741/
[01:34:20] <spasticteapot> Yeah, but I'm using structural steel.
[01:34:49] <spasticteapot> It's the right shape, it's cheap, it's immensely strong, and if I can figure out the correct bath, easy to electroplate.
[01:34:52] <andypugh> I will happily drill 12" holes in 1/4" steel with my cordless hand-drill.
[01:35:01] <spasticteapot> 12?"""
[01:35:05] <andypugh> 1/2"
[01:35:08] <spasticteapot> :P
[01:35:10] <andypugh> 12mm
[01:35:18] <andypugh> One or the other, not both
[01:35:34] <spasticteapot> I just bought some Klein hole saws on FleaBay and am wondering if it was not a good idea.
[01:35:43] <andypugh> And I have had the same set of (Dormer) drills for the last 15 years.
[01:35:52] <spasticteapot> I found out after I bid on the blasted things that they're only good for 10ga. metal.
[01:36:04] <spasticteapot> OTOH, $25 + shipping for six is cheap.
[01:36:10] <cradek> you can't cut 1/4" of steel with any hole saw
[01:36:27] <tom3p> and to sharpen drills, check the tip by looking at the shadow, cup you hand over it it block lite, look at profile & rotate it, you want tip in center and correct angle for metal being drilled, rotate to see the relief is good and equal. sharpening small drill is hard. 1" drill is easy ymmv.
[01:36:35] <spasticteapot> It says on the package "CAN CUT 10GA. STEEL"
[01:37:07] <danimal_garage> 6.5a
[01:37:19] <spasticteapot> And then there's these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120498193843&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
[01:37:24] <andypugh> It would go deeper in a drill press, with care.
[01:37:42] <andypugh> I have used a hole-saw for 1" thick aluminium
[01:37:55] <danimal_garage> 6.5A at idle
[01:38:14] <spasticteapot> Does motor oil make a good coolant?
[01:38:19] <danimal_garage> little better, huh?
[01:38:20] <Valen> thats more like what you want to see
[01:38:26] <Valen> yeah just a touch lol
[01:38:28] <andypugh> But once the teeth are buried the swarf doesn't clear, so you have to retract and brush every few seconds
[01:38:29] <danimal_garage> i use it for drilling and tapping
[01:38:32] <cradek> spasticteapot: good enough for drilling
[01:38:48] <andypugh> Rocol cutting fluid is better
[01:38:50] <danimal_garage> i use mobil 1 lol
[01:39:13] <andypugh> I suspect that Mobil1 might be _too_ lubricative
[01:39:32] <Valen> spasticteapot got a CnC mill of some kind?
[01:39:35] <spasticteapot> Is the tapping liquid the same stuff?
[01:39:39] <spasticteapot> Valen: $75 drill press.
[01:39:56] <Valen> so why you asking in #emc lol?
[01:40:09] <Valen> I mean I know we are awesome and all
[01:40:18] <Casainho> I think there are some bug with EMC 2.3.4, because I can't get argv[1] from M108... however I get it form other M1xx...
[01:40:21] <danimal_garage> so since i'm getting decent current, i guess i'm back to where i started
[01:40:21] <andypugh> Yeah, I use the same squeezy bottle for drilling, tapping, turning, milling and hacsawing.
[01:40:27] <spasticteapot> Because I keep getting bullshit answers everywhere else.
[01:40:33] <danimal_garage> looking for a servo swap lol
[01:40:50] <spasticteapot> danimal_garage: What servo?
[01:40:55] <Valen> 6A at what voltage again 2.7?
[01:41:08] <andypugh> Casainho: Is there a declaration of M108 in an ini file somewhere, and not the others? (Or the other way round)
[01:41:28] <spasticteapot> That's very very low impedance - I'm thinking maybe a short.
[01:41:36] <spasticteapot> That's only about 0.45 ohms.
[01:41:44] <Valen> they are big motors spasticteapot
[01:41:55] <andypugh> and those carbide holesaws look good. I checked and they have metal tooth geometry, not concrete.
[01:42:04] <celeron55> it's quite a big motor and he got 0.6 and 0.8 or something with a multimeter (which could measure such low resistances quite unprecisely)
[01:42:07] <Casainho> andypugh: no, nothing on init file related to M108...
[01:42:21] <spasticteapot> andypugh: I actually bought a different set - they say "Klein", and hopefully they're not total crap.
[01:42:21] <celeron55> so that could be right
[01:42:31] <spasticteapot> What voltage is the motor designed for?
[01:42:34] <andypugh> I am afaid I know nothing at all about custom M-codes
[01:42:36] <spasticteapot> Or, more accurately, what is it running on?
[01:42:43] <spasticteapot> And how many watts is it rated for?
[01:42:44] <danimal_garage> 1.2A idle, and 2A moving
[01:42:47] <spasticteapot> A/C or D/C?
[01:42:51] <andypugh> Stepper
[01:43:00] <spasticteapot> danimal_garage: Voltage?
[01:43:14] <andypugh> So normal current/voltage specs are irrelevant.
[01:43:16] <Valen> rated to 9A
[01:43:20] <celeron55> danimal_garage: where did you measure those values
[01:43:21] <danimal_garage> opps sorry yes, 2.7V
[01:43:37] <Valen> so about 30W or so
[01:43:40] <danimal_garage> at the coils
[01:43:43] <Valen> (for both coils)
[01:43:46] <spasticteapot> danimal_garage: Unipolar or bipolar?
[01:43:57] <Valen> still somewhat low
[01:44:00] <danimal_garage> unipolar i believe
[01:44:00] <spasticteapot> And did you check all the coils?
[01:44:07] <danimal_garage> yes
[01:44:16] <celeron55> it's unipolar, driven with a bipolar drive
[01:44:26] <celeron55> with coils in series
[01:44:35] <celeron55> because it has 3 wires per coil
[01:44:41] <danimal_garage> yep
[01:44:42] <Valen> that'll give him the most torque per amp
[01:44:50] <spasticteapot> Mhmm.
[01:44:53] <andypugh> So, more ambipolar then :-)
[01:45:01] <spasticteapot> I'm not being very helpful, am I. :P
[01:45:23] <danimal_garage> any help is appreciated :)
[01:45:35] <danimal_garage> i'm very new to all this
[01:45:39] <andypugh> If your drive is set to 9A then you should get 9A
[01:45:53] <celeron55> it's set to 7.8A
[01:45:59] <andypugh> That's the drive's job. \
[01:46:07] <celeron55> 6A could be near enough
[01:46:13] <danimal_garage> the drive is set to 7.8A max 5.xA continuous
[01:46:13] <spasticteapot> Have you tried manually stepping the motor?
[01:46:24] <celeron55> ah, then it's just about right
[01:46:25] <spasticteapot> Connecting the various coils to voltage and seeing if it moves?
[01:46:33] <danimal_garage> no i havent
[01:46:41] <danimal_garage> the machine moves
[01:46:49] <andypugh> I wonder when it decides it is not moving>
[01:46:56] <danimal_garage> i've been using it for months, it's just not very accurate
[01:47:13] <danimal_garage> same here andy
[01:47:21] <celeron55> losing steps with heavy loading, it was
[01:47:32] <danimal_garage> that's bt guess
[01:47:37] <danimal_garage> my*
[01:47:43] <celeron55> you should try to make it lose steps without loading
[01:47:52] <danimal_garage> i have the velocity and accel set pretty low
[01:48:25] <danimal_garage> yea, i was going to try that celeron55
[01:48:50] <danimal_garage> but i can always tell when it's going to jump
[01:49:02] <Valen> how?
[01:49:07] <danimal_garage> i'd put $$ on it being low speed
[01:49:18] <andypugh> Run the stepconf axis check, run an inch or two up and down for a few minutes, and see if it stops where it started
[01:49:45] <danimal_garage> i cant use stepconf, can i?
[01:49:51] <danimal_garage> i have a 5i20
[01:50:13] <andypugh> Probably not then. A long G0 loop then
[01:50:40] <andypugh> While #1 LT 1 brazillian
[01:50:48] <danimal_garage> Valen: it happens when i hear the cutter under load, like when it sucks in a small piece of scrap or when i take a heavy cut
[01:52:02] <danimal_garage> i just need to find a cheap servo swap
[01:52:03] <Valen> what screws are you using?
[01:52:20] <Valen> servo wont automatically fix it without loads of power
[01:52:29] <danimal_garage> screws?
[01:52:37] <danimal_garage> 5 rev/in
[01:52:45] <danimal_garage> if you mean ball screws
[01:53:39] <spasticteapot> Does EMC support the addition of optical encoders to form DIY servos?
[01:54:02] <andypugh> You could fit encoders to your steppers. It won't stop the problem, but it would produce a follow-error when it slips
[01:54:08] <andypugh> spasticteapot: Yes
[01:54:22] <danimal_garage> i thought about that
[01:55:23] <spasticteapot> I know a chap with a large mill equipped with ballscrews who was thinking about a conversion. Which stepper driver kit is most recommended?
[01:55:26] <danimal_garage> but if it doesnt fix it, i'm just out more $$
[01:55:32] <andypugh> We had an Isreali lass here a few weeks back who built a servo from a DC motor, some card with felt-tip gray-code pattern on it and mouse opto-sensors.
[01:55:37] <spasticteapot> Also, what sort of optical encoder?
[01:56:08] <spasticteapot> andypugh: Much better is to use the mouse encoder with a slotted wheel, but yeah, it'll work.
[01:56:14] <celeron55> umm... i have a diy servo made with an AVR :P
[01:56:16] <andypugh> For a large mill, not steppers at all
[01:56:27] <spasticteapot> Andypugh: Really?
[01:56:38] <andypugh> Ask danimal
[01:56:42] <danimal_garage> my dog keeps eating oranges from my tree
[01:56:43] <spasticteapot> :P
[01:56:49] <spasticteapot> I was just going to gear 'em heavily.
[01:56:54] <danimal_garage> steppers suck on big machines
[01:57:04] <spasticteapot> Figures.
[01:57:15] <andypugh> Yeah, they don't seem to scale.
[01:57:34] <danimal_garage> i'd have better luck with a hampster wheel on each axis
[01:57:39] <spasticteapot> What if a large DC motor was heavily geared and combined with an encoder?
[01:58:00] <andypugh> The get bigger and torque goes up with diameter, mass up with diameter cubed, and moment of inertia with diameter ^4
[01:58:29] <andypugh> Just get a servo.
[01:58:50] <celeron55> http://celer.oni.biz/~celeron55/random/2009-10/totallyrandom/01102009.jpg
[01:58:51] <celeron55> 8)
[01:59:17] <celeron55> just for playing around, but it's a diy servo anyways :P
[01:59:17] <Valen> danimal_garage we are using linear scales
[01:59:24] <Valen> it seems to be working fairly well
[01:59:28] <andypugh> Yeah, or a Frenkenstein drill motor
[01:59:32] <Valen> with 500W scooter motors
[01:59:41] <Valen> $36 per
[01:59:51] <Valen> and some "modified" 200W dual cards from mesa
[01:59:52] <celeron55> andypugh: that also
[02:00:08] <Valen> upside is we don't care how accurate the screws are
[02:00:21] <Valen> I think we are using the same screws too
[02:00:43] <celeron55> heavily geared diy dc servo, to be precise!
[02:00:50] <Valen> theres some pics http://www.vapourforge.com/mill/ showing it and videos as well
[02:00:52] <danimal_garage> hmm
[02:01:16] <Valen> only thing is you have to have backlash less than your scale readout or the motors will hunt and it'll be bad
[02:01:45] <danimal_garage> problem is i need my machine running quickly as it's my sourse for income
[02:01:56] <danimal_garage> source*
[02:01:58] <spasticteapot> andypugh: Strictly speaking, a servo is just a DC motor with a gearbox and an encoder. That said, you're probably right.
[02:02:04] <spasticteapot> danimal_garage: O rly?
[02:02:08] <danimal_garage> so i kinda need a turn key kinda swap
[02:02:09] <spasticteapot> What do you make with it?
[02:02:18] <danimal_garage> bicycle parts
[02:02:34] <andypugh> No need for a gearbox to be a servo
[02:02:57] <danimal_garage> http://homebrewedcomponents.wordpress.com/product-pictures-and-pricing/
[02:04:51] <Valen> spiffy
[02:04:54] <eric_unterhausen> danimal_garage: those are some really nice parts, I'm just getting back into framebuilding
[02:05:14] <spasticteapot> I was...and then I got arthritis.
[02:05:16] <spasticteapot> I'm in college. WTF?
[02:05:28] <danimal_garage> thanks eric!
[02:05:32] <Valen> what you can do is put a dc motor onto it hook up a variable PSU and see how much oomph it needs to move it
[02:05:38] <andypugh> Anyone recall that youtube vid of a milll like danimals with servos? It was throwing those large iron castings around with abandon
[02:05:41] <Valen> (or just plug a drill battery in)
[02:05:56] <danimal_garage> i saw that andy
[02:06:01] <Valen> whats yer budget danimal_garage?
[02:06:25] <danimal_garage> preferably like 1500 or less
[02:06:26] <andypugh> 455 Kuwait Dollars, we decided
[02:06:47] <danimal_garage> hahah
[02:06:57] <danimal_garage> i already baught the 7i33
[02:07:15] <andypugh> 430 Kuwait Dollars left
[02:07:43] <andypugh> (Things sound cheaper in that currency)
[02:07:55] <danimal_garage> haha very true
[02:08:07] <spasticteapot> danimal_garage: Do you CNC brass?
[02:08:22] <eric_unterhausen> I think I need to start telling my wife the cost of things in Kuwait dollars
[02:08:49] <andypugh> I CNC brass, in fact that is eventually all I want to work with.
[02:09:15] <Valen> where are you located danimal?
[02:09:17] <danimal_garage> i dont usually cut brass, but it's not much different than anything else
[02:09:19] <andypugh> Lovely stuff. Free machining, strong, corrosion resistant.
[02:09:34] <danimal_garage> san diego, california, usa
[02:10:33] <Valen> danimal If you can get away with using mesa products to drive then you don't need that 7i33
[02:10:48] <Valen> cos there wont be any analog drift or anything silly like that ;->
[02:11:35] <andypugh> I saw a sales thing from the Brass Marketing Board (or similar) saying that brass should be used more, as the high material cost is very often offset by the reduced manufacturing cost. Tool wear is low, machining speeds are high, and it is as strong as mild steel, but saves on protective finishing costs.
[02:11:38] <danimal_garage> i talked to peter, he said none of their drives will work for my application
[02:12:23] <danimal_garage> too small
[02:12:41] <spasticteapot> I need some brass rings machined for some goggles.
[02:12:55] <spasticteapot> They're to be sold at anime conventions.
[02:12:56] <andypugh> danimal: Have you considered absolute linear encoders instead of rotaries? I doubt that emc cares where the feedback is from
[02:13:15] <Valen> 8I20 should do lol
[02:13:20] <tom3p> Valen: your 500W scooter motors from where? used? ebay? rpm?
[02:13:25] <Valen> andypugh thats what we are using
[02:13:33] <danimal_garage> andy, no, but the encoders are the cheapest part of the swap
[02:13:45] <Valen> http://secure.oatleyelectronics.com//product_info.php?cPath=96&products_id=189&osCsid=12570bd0bb78525c2ba3e83991513e48
[02:14:26] <danimal_garage> what about those keiling motors
[02:14:26] <Valen> danimal we are hitting 1.5M a minute speeds on ours
[02:14:34] <danimal_garage> nice
[02:14:36] <andypugh> Buy 18 fanuc servos, auction them off in singles, and keep the best three?
[02:14:45] <danimal_garage> haha
[02:15:06] <Valen> and about .01mm cutting accuracy with .001 scales
[02:15:07] <danimal_garage> i can get fanuc servos for #00 each locally
[02:15:16] <danimal_garage> 300*
[02:15:31] <tom3p> Valen thx, lookat http://www.scootercatalog.com/xtreme-x500-motor-48v.html
[02:16:16] <andypugh> That's my point. buy eBay 270492357769 and undercut the local price.
[02:16:21] <danimal_garage> do you think that will move my machine?
[02:17:11] <tom3p> im not happy with low rpm ( would like at least 3000rpm to get rapids up )
[02:17:16] <Valen> moves ours
[02:17:29] <Valen> direct drive
[02:17:33] <danimal_garage> problem is i dont know enough about drives to find a deal on one
[02:17:40] <Valen> we are only running 24v on the 36v motot
[02:17:45] <danimal_garage> what kind of mill Valen?
[02:17:45] <Valen> it goes scary fast as it is
[02:17:59] <Valen> did you see the pictures and links I have been posting?
[02:18:20] <Valen> http://www.vapourforge.com/mill/IMAG0031.jpg
[02:18:20] <danimal_garage> i checked some, i might have missed one, i am running a machine while i'm chatting
[02:18:40] <Valen> 900mm travel on X
[02:18:51] <Valen> smaller than yours but similar ballpark
[02:19:09] <danimal_garage> my machine weighs 6000lbs
[02:19:22] <danimal_garage> it's 17x36" travel
[02:19:54] <danimal_garage> little bigger
[02:20:01] <Valen> just a touch ;->
[02:20:05] <danimal_garage> cool machine though
[02:20:18] <danimal_garage> i'd like to get something like that for engraving work
[02:20:29] <Valen> with both of us pulling on it as hard as we can we cant slow the travel down
[02:20:32] <andypugh> What speed do those motors reach?
[02:20:50] <Valen> we hit 3 meters a minute or so on rapids
[02:20:53] <Valen> limited by accel
[02:20:56] <Valen> at 24 volts
[02:20:59] <spasticteapot> Does anyone here take work on commission?
[02:21:09] <spasticteapot> And a better question: Would anyone here take payment in trade? :)
[02:21:11] <andypugh> Yeah, I was thinking 10,000rpm would be about right
[02:21:19] <Valen> god no
[02:21:29] <Valen> direct drive at 5mm a turn
[02:21:54] <celeron55> it's half the power at 24V vs. 36V
[02:21:55] <celeron55> and 2/3 max. rpm
[02:21:57] <Valen> we don't hit all the power of 24 v as it is
[02:22:19] <Valen> I'm scared to run it much faster lol, its a full traverse in about 10 seconds or so
[02:22:27] <andypugh> It's a 48V motor, and PM DC motors are limited by voltage
[02:22:51] <tom3p> Valen is screw .2" pitch (5mm) or steeper?
[02:23:24] <tom3p> soory, i see 5mm
[02:24:36] <andypugh> Bosch do a 750W 24V PM DC motor that does 10k rpm. Its a great bit of kit (it was the motor of choice for UK RobotWars)
[02:26:09] <celeron55> here's some serious rpm with fairly much peak power: http://www.robotmarketplace.com/products/BP389010-00.html
[02:26:12] <celeron55> :P
[02:26:16] <andypugh> http://howto.killerhurtz.co.uk/boschspec.gif
[02:26:32] <Valen> these scooters would put more power out
[02:26:42] <Valen> if your after power look at the mag motors
[02:26:48] <Valen> we were looking at those
[02:27:03] <Valen> but you need to get them from the supplier in the states with loads of volts
[02:27:03] <celeron55> yep, they'll give loads of power
[02:27:38] <celeron55> also, for insane amounts of dc power: http://www.robotmarketplace.com/products/EMS-PMG132.html
[02:27:40] <andypugh> That Bosh motor is 10Nm (at 150A)
[02:27:57] <Valen> with something like a 7I29 to drive it
[02:28:08] <andypugh> Yeah, Lynch wins (won the electric TT)
[02:28:23] <Valen> we use stuff from RMP a fair bit in our combat robots
[02:28:34] <andypugh> But the Bosch GP750 is <$100
[02:28:58] <andypugh> Combat robots?
[02:29:43] <andypugh> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KidY2oJBAG4
[02:29:52] <eric_unterhausen> good news is when I smoked my drive's serial port, I didn't smoke the encoder on the motor
[02:32:31] <andypugh> (Great shots of the back of my head in that clip, but both robots used the Bosch GPA motor)
[02:34:15] <eric_unterhausen> I bet the guys that ran robot wars back in the day wished they didn't spend the '90s suing each other
[02:34:16] <danimal_garage> i take it none of that stuff is big enough for my machine, huh
[02:35:22] <andypugh> Aye, I think they should try again. The tech has come on a _lot_ and I am certainly up for another go. I have a great deal more cash, equipment, and experience now too.
[02:36:00] <andypugh> The Bosch GPA 750 would be, look at the spec sheet.
[02:36:01] <eric_unterhausen> I agree about that, but I'm talking about the competition way before the television show
[02:36:56] <andypugh> And also see how it throws a 100kg robot about at 10mph or so.
[02:37:01] <eric_unterhausen> they gave a weight advantage for autonomous robots, but nobody knew how to do that back then
[02:37:33] <andypugh> Whereas now, you could afford to trash arduionos at $50 a pop
[02:38:12] <eric_unterhausen> I don't know if you could do the job with an arduino, maybe a herd of arduinos (we're giving them away)
[02:38:31] <eric_unterhausen> wait, that is winnebegos
[02:40:52] <Valen> danimal_garage heres a "scale" for you, atm your motors are putting out 36W or so, Ours are pushing 200-400 or so
[02:40:56] <andypugh> We had to cobble together all sorts of random parts to get radio control to mix and drive big DC motors. Now you would have RC-in and PWM out to power mosfets, and off-the-shelf hardware in the middle with custom software.
[02:41:34] <eric_unterhausen> servo sizing is a bit of an art
[02:41:35] <andypugh> Our main problem was that we didn't understand the parts we bought, so when they broke (or got smashed) we were in trouble.
[02:41:54] <Valen> andypugh just use a pair of victors or a sidewinder with a hobbyking 2.4Ghz radio
[02:42:16] <andypugh> We were only allowed 40Mhz at the time
[02:43:58] <Valen> yeah, now they (in the USA) don't allow anything other than 2.4ghz
[02:44:05] <andypugh> (I have wacky mental image of a roboteer typing in G0 commands to make a robot fight)
[02:44:50] <Valen> danimal_garage, If you at one stage had hand turn type wheels on it, and they were un geared those scooter motors would do the job for you
[02:45:04] <eric_unterhausen> some of our segway robots decided to drive through a wall
[02:45:26] <eric_unterhausen> fortunately, it was in our lab, not the wall into the hallway
[02:47:51] <eric_unterhausen> they have robot soccer, that is no doubt more difficult than beating up another robot
[02:49:22] <danimal_garage> this machine never had handles on it
[02:49:35] <eric_unterhausen> I wish my machine had handles
[02:49:56] <eric_unterhausen> I actually bought handles for it, but I couldn't figure out a way to put them on
[02:50:16] <andypugh> I have a gold medal from robot soccer :-)
[02:51:05] <danimal_garage> my table is about twice the weight of a 42x9 bridgeport table so it'll take some effort to turn
[02:51:34] <eric_unterhausen> do you have a Tree mill?
[02:51:43] <danimal_garage> shizuoka AN-S
[02:52:16] <danimal_garage> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v20/danielwilcox/DSCN0543.jpg
[02:52:55] <eric_unterhausen> what do the vicegrips do?
[02:53:57] <danimal_garage> they're there to turn the vari drive
[02:54:03] <danimal_garage> for the spindle
[02:54:13] <eric_unterhausen> that machine looks similar to my BP series II, but heftier where it counts
[02:54:15] <danimal_garage> it had a servo on there
[02:54:16] <andypugh> danimal: watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6LW10VTsMI again and count your pennies :-)
[02:55:05] <danimal_garage> what do you think that is, 200ipm?
[02:55:17] <eric_unterhausen> andypugh, I can't help but think that thing is going to fall over with the table out that far
[02:55:24] <danimal_garage> i emailed that guy to ask what motors and drives he was using, got no repsonse
[02:55:45] <eric_unterhausen> they looked like some of the AB motors
[02:55:50] <eric_unterhausen> N series I think
[02:55:50] <danimal_garage> the base is pretty substantual
[02:56:15] <eric_unterhausen> yeah, they do fall over if someone puts something like an engine block on there though
[02:57:01] <danimal_garage> those motors are probably pretty pricy, huh
[02:57:21] <eric_unterhausen> do I have to tell you my motor purchasing secrets?
[02:57:40] <danimal_garage> please do!
[02:57:45] <eric_unterhausen> ebay, look for misspellings, wait for summer
[02:57:49] <andypugh> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Allen-Bradley-servo-motor-MPL-B520K-MK24AA_W0QQitemZ380168023249
[02:57:55] <andypugh> Anything like?
[02:58:48] <eric_unterhausen> not specifically, no
[02:58:55] <danimal_garage> my problem is i dont know what i'm looking at.
[02:59:01] <andypugh> Just cheap
[02:59:25] <eric_unterhausen> I am too, even though they retail for $2000, I'm only happy if I pay less than $50
[02:59:27] <danimal_garage> most just have a part number, and they';re too old to have any data sheets online
[02:59:34] <eric_unterhausen> I'll pay $100 if they have the cables
[02:59:51] <eric_unterhausen> ab was buying companies and selling them like crazy
[02:59:58] <eric_unterhausen> screwed up the product support
[03:00:36] <eric_unterhausen> but many companies sold the same motors
[03:00:43] <danimal_garage> it's the drives i have the biggest issue with
[03:00:52] <eric_unterhausen> ab, giddings, electrocraft kollmorgen
[03:00:58] <eric_unterhausen> drives are a pain
[03:00:59] <andypugh> I think I looked at these, and they were 300V so I lost interes
[03:01:08] <eric_unterhausen> they will run off 120
[03:01:20] <eric_unterhausen> 300v is dc, 220ac mains supplies
[03:01:27] <andypugh> I can't get 120 either :-)
[03:01:41] <andypugh> 230 is all I have
[03:02:10] <andypugh> But they are way too big for my machine
[03:03:12] <eric_unterhausen> danimal_garage: If you get brushless, make sure the motors match the drives, if not sure, skip it
[03:03:40] <danimal_garage> http://cgi.ebay.com/Whedco-IMC-1130-1-A-AC-Servo-Motor-Drive-Controller_W0QQitemZ390125523712QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5ad54b1300
[03:03:46] <andypugh> Now you tell us!
[03:03:47] <danimal_garage> ac drive for cheap
[03:03:56] <danimal_garage> dont know the size though
[03:04:31] <eric_unterhausen> also recognize that the cables retail for hundreds of dollars; making them yourself may cost you $50 and up
[03:05:07] <andypugh> I have motors coming from Thailand and drives (10 year old Bodines) from California and no idea if I even want them :-) (bit less than £100 total)
[03:05:54] <eric_unterhausen> the guy with the rebuilt Shizuoka needs to get the way oiler working yesterday
[03:06:18] <danimal_garage> yea, seems like a rust bucket
[03:06:29] <andypugh> danimal: At that price, buy it and experiemement, then eBay is back if it is no good.
[03:06:58] <Jymmm> I know someone is getting a steak dinner tonight... http://imagebin.ca/view/wa6UAD.html
[03:07:12] <danimal_garage> i wish i could find data on it to see if it could handle a decent sized motor
[03:07:34] <eric_unterhausen> Jymmm was that guy shooting?
[03:07:51] <Jymmm> watch it
[03:07:56] <andypugh> Stupid dog. Stupider man. glad to see the dog won
[03:07:59] <eric_unterhausen> I'm old and it's hard to see
[03:08:06] <Jymmm> yes
[03:08:19] <Jymmm> you see the smoke
[03:09:19] <Valen> danimal_garage If you wanted to do it right, I'd get the 2.2Kw drives from mesa, (the 150V ones) and the 4 inch mag motors
[03:09:42] <Valen> direct drive with the finest linear scales you can get
[03:10:06] <Valen> I'd run it off rectified AC (no PSU) though perhaps an isolation transformer
[03:10:15] <Valen> with a buttload of filter caps
[03:10:33] <andypugh> Someone linked to Killdozer last night? It seems to me that if you have a bad day and go off on one and, say, build a tank, or perhaps steal one, in the US, you are almost guaranteed to end up shot dead. In the UK that only happens to brazillian electricians.
[03:10:38] <eric_unterhausen> http://cgi.ebay.com/Reliance-Electro-Craft-Servo-Motor-F-4050-Q-H00AA_W0QQitemZ190354205954QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2c51fead02
[03:10:42] <eric_unterhausen> those work ok
[03:10:50] <danimal_garage> peter said their servo drives wouldnt work for me
[03:10:53] <eric_unterhausen> 2kw motor though
[03:11:42] <JohnReason> Hi all. I have a question: I just installed the newest version of EMC with a LiveCD but when I go to open it I pick a configuration (any of them) and after a few seconds it freezes up completely. Any ideas?
[03:12:06] <andypugh> Ooh! Ooh! an actual EMC question!
[03:12:10] <danimal_garage> haha
[03:12:15] <JohnReason> Sorry. lol
[03:12:18] <eric_unterhausen> JohnReason, before axis opens?
[03:12:40] <jfigie> The AB MPL B520 Is a 3.5 Kw 460V motor
[03:13:03] <JohnReason> Axis? All I know is that the little blue square with Tux holding a hammer (or something) pops up, and then in the background EMC opens, then it freezes
[03:13:49] <JohnReason> The only thing you can do is move the cursor. Nothing else I have tried does anything.
[03:13:53] <andypugh> JohnReason: try starting emc by typing "emc" at the command line, you get rather more debug info
[03:14:16] <andypugh> I guess he will be back
[03:14:24] <eric_unterhausen> danimal_garage: that motor link I posted before is by an idiot that isn't going to sell anything because his shipping is too high; buyers stay away even though the overall cost is reasonable. He has more than one drive
[03:14:43] <eric_unterhausen> andypugh: he tried to start emc again
[03:16:15] <andypugh> $428 to ship that motor to me. I think I will decline to bid
[03:16:23] <JohnReason> Whoa! My connection just dropped. Did I miss anything?
[03:16:27] <eric_unterhausen> JohnReason: what kind of computer?
[03:16:33] <andypugh> JohnReason: Welcome back.
[03:17:17] <eric_unterhausen> those motors are probably expensive to ship because of the boat anchor gearboxes that nobody wants
[03:17:25] <danimal_garage> yea
[03:17:41] <eric_unterhausen> I think I've bought from that guy before, I certainly recognize the name
[03:17:41] <danimal_garage> i wish i can find some data on that drive i found
[03:17:56] <eric_unterhausen> that link you posted recently?
[03:17:59] <danimal_garage> maybe it'll work with that motor
[03:18:01] <danimal_garage> yes
[03:18:05] <danimal_garage> they're both a/c
[03:18:08] <eric_unterhausen> doubt it would work
[03:18:25] <danimal_garage> the drive is too small you think?
[03:18:34] <eric_unterhausen> the drive electronics are probably ok, but the encoder interface probably doesn't work
[03:19:20] <andypugh> Whedco were bought by Fanuc in 1999, so that is an old drive, but the Fanuc site might have a spec
[03:19:54] <Valen> 2.2kw is ~3HP
[03:19:54] <Valen> thats bigger than most spindles
[03:20:10] <eric_unterhausen> Valen: think of the jog speed
[03:20:11] <andypugh> He's back
[03:20:21] <Valen> and your working stepper system is using 30 watts
[03:20:31] <Valen> 0.003 hp or so
[03:20:32] <eric_unterhausen> http://cgi.ebay.com/Electro-Craft-IQ2000-PDM-10-Indexer-Servo_W0QQitemZ200413075040QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea98cd660
[03:20:37] <eric_unterhausen> he's selling the drives
[03:21:08] <andypugh> Yeah, buy the drives and motors and take a road trip
[03:21:33] <JohnReason> I am not sure exactly. I got it free from school. I am pretty sure it has a 1.6 ghz Intel processor, about 1gb of ram, and a video card.
[03:21:45] <andypugh> JohnReason: So, any error messages? Does dmesg say anything?
[03:22:11] <andypugh> Sounds fine for the job
[03:22:13] <JohnReason> I don't know what dmesg is, but I am guessing I couldn't access it anyway.
[03:22:14] <danimal_garage> hmmm
[03:22:36] <andypugh> If you boot from CD then you can do whatever the heck you want
[03:23:09] <andypugh> Except if the machine is frozen. Err, ignore me, everyone else has learned to
[03:23:17] <JohnReason> Will I get decent results booting from the CD? I figured that it would be less efficient.
[03:23:46] <andypugh> If you boot from the CD it ought to "Just Work"
[03:24:02] <danimal_garage> so he has 2 motors and 1 drive
[03:24:20] <danimal_garage> so i need to get another drive and i'm good for x and y axises
[03:24:20] <JohnReason> Well Everything I have tried in Linux works, until I try to open the EMC app
[03:24:22] <andypugh> All the CPU-intensive stuff is memory resident anyway
[03:26:54] <SWPadnos> JohnReason, have you tried one of the sim configs?
[03:27:27] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Have you heard of "SP Resistors" ?
[03:27:34] <JohnReason> Sim configs?
[03:27:36] <SWPadnos> Jymmm, no
[03:27:42] <andypugh> JohnReason: You could try opening a terminal window and moving it to somewherere the splash-screen doesn't occlude
[03:27:48] <JohnReason> Sorry for being naive. lol
[03:27:49] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: ok, thanks. I'll call the mfg =)
[03:27:55] <SWPadnos> JohnReason, when you run EMC2, you should be presented with a list of possible configurations to run
[03:28:05] <SWPadnos> you must select one before EMC2 will run
[03:28:18] <JohnReason> andypugh, I will try that later if I can't figure anything else out.
[03:28:54] <JohnReason> SWPadnos, I tried Sherline 3 axis, and G540 3 axis, since I was just trying to get a feel for the program... and wanted to puch pretty buttons. lol
[03:29:31] <SWPadnos> ok. one of the items in the list is "sim", with a+ next to it. There are several configs under there, if you expand that directory by clicking the +
[03:29:37] <andypugh> Hmm, actually, I have had that machine config picker pop up in the background, and make the whole machine unresponsive till I picked the right "not a windows taskbar" icon
[03:30:24] <andypugh> So that might possibly be the while issue
[03:30:37] <danimal_garage> you guys think those servos are overkill, huh
[03:31:06] <andypugh> No, too much is never enough.
[03:31:10] <danimal_garage> lol
[03:31:55] <andypugh> They are overkill at list price, but cheap enough? You could always under-run them
[03:32:10] <danimal_garage> yea
[03:32:14] <JohnReason> Okay. You guys have given me a bunch of ideas. I will check back here later if I can't get it fixed.
[03:32:22] <JohnReason> Thanks a lit
[03:32:25] <JohnReason> lot*
[03:32:37] <SWPadnos> JohnReason, one thing to note: don't try to start EMC twice
[03:32:40] <danimal_garage> i'll throw a low bid on everything
[03:33:03] <SWPadnos> make sure it's fully shut down before trying to start it again, or you'll probably have problems
[03:33:15] <andypugh> Yeah it hates that, and tends to not tidy up properly.
[03:33:44] <andypugh> You can easily end up with orphan RTAI threads which won't quit
[03:35:02] <SWPadnos> andypugh, technically, the run script should detect that the realtime system is loaded and unload it relatively gracefully, but that isn't always possible
[03:35:33] <SWPadnos> well, I'm going to try to get to sleep again. night all
[03:35:35] <andypugh> I can tell that it is trying, and no criticism was intended.
[03:36:49] <danimal_garage> nite
[03:40:00] <danimal_garage> ok i'm off too
[03:40:05] <danimal_garage> thanks for the help guys
[03:40:10] <danimal_garage> goodnight
[03:40:28] <andypugh> 0340am and work in 5 hours, me too,
[03:52:41] <danimal_garage> is an optical shaft decoder the same as an encoder?
[03:52:57] <danimal_garage> and/or will it work with my 7i33?
[05:11:06] <tom3p> itd be nice if siggen had a 'ttl' out, not just +/- 1, but 0/1
[05:26:07] <tom3p> how do i load halscope and tell it to not try to resurrect some unused config ( how to avoid list of unknown channels ) i used 'loadusr halscope'.
[05:33:00] <dgarr> if emc is running, you can start halscope from the command line and specify a file, for syntax, try halscope -h also, once running, you can specify a configuration from the pull-down dialog on the File menu
[05:35:06] <tom3p> dgarr: yes, but it remembers the last use ( say to check an encoder ) , and now i want to look at an analog value. it complains that the encoder signals are missing.
[05:36:05] <tom3p> how do i say 'start with no config'
[05:36:09] <dgarr> you might want to create a .halscope configuration file for each alternative you use with the save option of the file menu
[05:38:08] <dgarr> for no configuration, try halscope -i "" -- seems to work
[05:39:06] <tom3p> dgarr: thx! now have a simple pulser made out of a sim-encoder
[05:42:51] <dgarr> Excellent!
[10:02:10] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[11:15:00] <Valen> did first CnC job with Z axis in play tonight
[11:15:19] <Valen> twas kinda cool
[11:16:25] <dimas> Valen, congrats! :)
[11:16:49] <Valen> had some weirdness where one of the straight cuts came out with a bump in it
[11:21:25] <dimas> Valen, how are your other axis doing?
[11:21:35] <Valen> not tuned as yet
[11:21:40] <Valen> well kinda sorta
[11:21:48] <Valen> but in need of refining
[11:22:00] <Valen> have had X and Y running for some time
[11:22:08] <Valen> need to get the rotary going now
[11:22:21] <dimas> rotary axis?
[11:22:26] <Valen> yeah
[11:22:29] <dimas> diy?
[11:22:41] <Valen> going to use the old one for the time being
[11:22:49] <dimas> ok
[11:22:59] <Valen> might try the bit of string and a weight method of backlash removal ;->
[11:24:27] <dimas> yeah, i will face all this goodies later :)
[11:24:45] <Valen> we are looking at making our own decent rotary table a bit later on
[11:27:57] <dimas> interesting
[12:01:00] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[12:01:34] <piasdom> what's the other emc channel ? ....emc-devel ?
[12:02:32] <jthornton> yes
[12:06:58] <piasdom> i tried that one.....blank
[12:08:46] <micges_work> #emc-devel
[12:10:02] <piasdom> thanks
[12:10:14] <piasdom> i keep forgeting the
[12:10:18] <piasdom> #
[12:17:05] <EbiDK> EbiDK is now known as EbiDK|AWAY
[14:10:04] <Casainho> roh: ping
[14:40:11] <holy> I have forgotten that '#electricity' or similar channel.
[14:40:28] <holy> Wanted to read the book they offer.
[14:43:58] <tarzan> which book?
[14:47:23] <holy> The channel "#electrics" has a number of webpages which form a book. I need to read something to understand how the machine is working.
[14:47:42] <jepler> #electronics?
[14:47:44] <holy> I have forgotten the channel's name
[14:47:59] <holy> #electricity or #electrics...
[14:49:44] <kanzure> ##electronics
[14:51:11] <holy> thanks, kind kanzure
[15:04:02] <tom3p> haha i got the xy table moving with the sin & cosine of siggen, lets make a jig grinder
[15:06:28] <MattyMatt> put a hula skirt on it and let's just make a jig. /me gets out the squeezebox
[15:08:34] <MattyMatt> one thing I'd like to try sometime is a lens grinder
[15:09:38] <MattyMatt> a specialised machine might be best for that tho
[15:10:48] <MattyMatt> or maybe not. with x,y you could do things like combined concave and 45 deg mirrors
[15:11:43] <MattyMatt> which would be handy for steering stationary lasers etc :)
[15:12:43] <MattyMatt> eeh. focussing an IR laser. fun
[15:12:56] <MattyMatt> sorry, collimating :)
[15:14:22] <MattyMatt> right, where's my surface table? (me scans room for flattest looking table)
[15:16:12] <MattyMatt> I knew it, when my bro was stick a knife in this coffe table, I'd want it flat one day
[15:17:15] <MattyMatt> it was in his room at the time, and that requirement seemed to speculative to ask him to refrain. he was in a knife-sticking mood after all :)
[15:19:16] <tarzan> lens grinder, what for?
[15:19:37] <MattyMatt> making lenses
[15:19:46] <MattyMatt> I need specs for a start
[15:20:21] <MattyMatt> and then I want webcams with focussing lenses on voicecoils
[15:20:33] <tarzan> size?
[15:20:42] <MattyMatt> for a robot vision plan
[15:21:12] <MattyMatt> as big as I can do with x&y on my table, if I can, for telescope lenses
[15:22:13] <MattyMatt> custom spindle with a floating polishing disk
[15:23:40] <MattyMatt> not my current table, it's wood so no coolant
[15:25:23] <MattyMatt> I wish achiest-dragon had offered me his first steel one 2 days earlier :) I had just bought a table saw
[15:26:12] <MattyMatt> ah it woulda needed bigger motors than I could afford
[15:39:58] <tom3p> need force feedback, i had similar polishing requests
[15:40:15] <tom3p> sorta like laser height above wavy panel
[15:46:10] <tlab2> tlab2 is now known as tlab
[15:50:06] <danimal_garage> morning
[15:51:00] <eric_unterhausen> danimal_garage howdy
[15:51:24] <eric_unterhausen> power went out last night just as I was getting rolling on the servomotors
[15:51:40] <danimal_garage> ouch
[15:51:52] <danimal_garage> bummer
[15:52:06] <tom3p> 1st snow just started here, chicago
[15:52:27] <eric_unterhausen> we had our first snow back in October: Pennsylvania
[15:52:38] <danimal_garage> i went mountain biking in some snow last weekend
[15:52:50] <danimal_garage> here in southern california
[15:52:57] <tom3p> wow
[15:53:21] <SWPadnos> funny. we're getting fairly heqavy rain here in Vermont
[15:53:24] <eric_unterhausen> I went mountain biking in snow on July 4 in Utah
[15:53:24] <SWPadnos> -q
[15:53:39] <danimal_garage> i believe it
[15:53:46] <danimal_garage> high altitude
[15:53:50] <eric_unterhausen> didn't expect to find snow
[15:53:52] <danimal_garage> where in utah?
[15:53:57] <eric_unterhausen> Ogden
[15:54:05] <danimal_garage> never been there
[15:54:50] <danimal_garage> i did a mountain bike race in brian head utah one july and it hailed so much it looked like snow on the ground
[15:55:26] <eric_unterhausen> the hail is about the only downside to utah weather
[15:55:41] <danimal_garage> but that was 10,000-12,000 feet altitude
[15:55:44] <eric_unterhausen> I swear it hails there almost as much as it rains
[15:56:02] <danimal_garage> yea
[15:56:09] <eric_unterhausen> I lived at 4800 feet, not really that much difference when it comes right down to it
[15:56:51] <danimal_garage> 4800 is almost at the snow line out here
[15:57:08] <danimal_garage> actually i think it might be above the snow line
[15:58:15] <danimal_garage> last weekend was kinda fun, we started in the high desert where there was snow, and ended up in palm springs, which is pretty hot
[15:58:23] <danimal_garage> 2 entirely different climates
[15:58:30] <skunkworks_> we had our first light dusting here also. (western WI
[15:58:32] <skunkworks_> )
[15:59:06] <eric_unterhausen> the ski areas in Utah are really unhappy if they don't have 2 feet of base by now
[15:59:31] <danimal_garage> yea
[16:00:01] <danimal_garage> i think my family got snowed on already in Maine and Connecticut
[16:00:05] <skunkworks_> I started to get the ski itch this year... (I need to find some used ski/boots) I didn't get out last year and my boots have finally fallen appart
[16:00:08] <eric_unterhausen> they have only had 20" of snow this year
[16:01:01] <skunkworks_> looks like you're going to spend close to 1k new. Yeck.
[16:01:08] <danimal_garage> i just lit the pilot on the furnace this week
[16:01:25] <danimal_garage> gets down into the 50's at night
[16:01:34] <eric_unterhausen> I miss real snow, I went from beginner to skiing in trees in just 2 years, then moved to Pennsylvania and can't stand to ski on ice
[16:01:57] <skunkworks_> heh - that is funny - I learned to ski on ice. It is fun.
[16:02:15] <danimal_garage> i learned to ski in connecticut
[16:02:22] <danimal_garage> at ski sundown
[16:02:42] <eric_unterhausen> when the snow is 5 days old in Utah, people start getting killed because they don't know how to ski it
[16:03:36] <danimal_garage> ok my dogs are staring at me.... i gotta go walk them
[16:03:39] <danimal_garage> i'll be back
[16:04:05] <dimas> tom3p, lucky you (snow), we have nothing yet around moscow
[16:04:40] <dimas> and warmest weather i could ever remember
[16:13:37] <tom3p> dimas, everythings changing (on top of changes ). i hope moscow winter's not too hard this year, i'm sure you recall bad ones
[16:14:52] <dimas> :)
[16:35:55] <MrSunshine> gaah why does jackofoam curve when i mill it :/
[16:36:01] <MrSunshine> its straight when i begin
[16:36:06] <MrSunshine> but after milling it curvs backwards
[16:36:31] <danimal_garage> stress in the material
[16:36:32] <MrSunshine> mm
[16:36:39] <MrSunshine> so need to mill it on both sides with other words :/
[16:36:46] <MrSunshine> or something
[16:36:47] <tom3p> got a skin? remove skin and it will bend
[16:36:58] <danimal_garage> either it had stress in it to begin with and by removing material, it freed it somewhat, or you created stress when you cut it
[16:37:04] <MrSunshine> tom3p, humm ?
[16:37:14] <MrSunshine> its a "skin" surface on one side
[16:37:21] <archivist> blunt cutter causes stress
[16:37:36] <archivist> it compresses the skin
[16:37:53] <MrSunshine> i wonder if i can aneal it :P
[16:38:00] <tom3p> skins tense one side, relieve tension, and it will bend ( actually un-bend, the straight was caused by pulling on one side of a curve ;)
[16:38:04] <MrSunshine> put it in oven and heat it up and bend it streight :P
[16:38:55] <danimal_garage> put it in water then it turns into a foam dinosaur
[16:39:08] <tom3p> shrinky-dinks!
[16:39:18] <danimal_garage> yup!
[16:40:13] <danimal_garage> MrSunshine, what i usually do is rough it all out then i take a small finish pass on everything
[16:40:50] <danimal_garage> the roughing pass usually makes it move if it is going to
[16:40:56] <tom3p> if the bend is ok in the final part, but it causes probs during cutting, use vacuum or tape or spray glue or... something to hold it flat while cutting like sewing machine foot
[16:41:26] <danimal_garage> check to see if it's parrelel after you cut it
[16:41:50] <danimal_garage> it could be the material deflecting when you cut it due to poor workholding
[16:42:05] <tom3p> danimal_garage: you know Anza-Borrego state park?
[16:42:10] <danimal_garage> yep
[16:42:17] <tom3p> would you live there?
[16:42:26] <danimal_garage> if i was a lizzard
[16:42:37] <danimal_garage> hot as hell
[16:43:08] <tom3p> ah, i like short answers, so its dry & hot ( good for solar, not for keeping cool ) thx
[16:43:09] <danimal_garage> well i guess it depends on if it's high desert or low desert
[16:43:44] <tom3p> iirc the advert said 'view of mountains', not view from mountains
[16:43:53] <danimal_garage> hahaha
[16:44:08] <danimal_garage> anza is all desert
[16:44:14] <danimal_garage> but some parts are nice
[16:44:29] <danimal_garage> i mean it's mostly nice, just depends on the season
[16:44:34] <tom3p> i best visit, sounds ok for camping
[16:44:49] <MrSunshine> danimal_garage, havent played with finnishing passes. .. and dunno how to make heekscnc do them :)
[16:44:55] <danimal_garage> great for camping, off roading, mountainbiking, etc
[16:45:36] <danimal_garage> MrSunshine, can you put in a tool offset?
[16:45:43] <danimal_garage> or a tool diameter?
[16:46:03] <tom3p> MrSunshine: all heeks cnc pockets have a finishing pass ( a less than normal amount of stock to cut that wouldnt deflect the cutter as much as the normal pass would )
[16:46:28] <MrSunshine> tom3p, automagicly ?
[16:46:47] <numen> hi
[16:47:09] <danimal_garage> MrSunshine, the key is you need to unclamp it then reclamp it to let the part go where it's going to before the finish pass
[16:47:28] <tom3p> MrSunshine: i see the zigzag does not, but the adaptive did
[16:47:51] <MrSunshine> danielfalck, but i dont clamp it realy .. i hot clue it to a flat surface
[16:47:52] <danimal_garage> if it's constrained in a stressed state, it isnt going to help much having a spring pass
[16:47:59] <tom3p> and thats concerned with tool deflection not material moving
[16:48:22] <danimal_garage> the glue will still constrain it
[16:48:36] <MrSunshine> ye ...
[16:48:43] <danimal_garage> yea, you probably dont have much tool deflection with foam unless you have a really light machine
[16:49:29] <MrSunshine> its a 6mm 4 flute endmill
[16:49:35] <MrSunshine> so dont think the tool will actualy deflect =)
[16:49:51] <danimal_garage> do you have a flat surface on the part before you put it on the machine?
[16:50:23] <MrSunshine> its flat from when i cut it from the stock
[16:50:30] <MrSunshine> atleast ALOT flatter then it comes out after milling :P
[16:50:43] <danimal_garage> ok then it is stress
[16:50:48] <MrSunshine> its the thin surfaces that have the surface skin of the foam still on it that bends
[16:50:53] <MrSunshine> the thicker parts stays straight
[16:50:56] <danimal_garage> as mentioned, make sure your tools are sharp
[16:51:13] <danimal_garage> make sure you dont heat it up too much
[16:51:28] <danimal_garage> and it sounds like tom3p is right, you might need to take that skin off
[16:51:35] <MrSunshine> mm
[16:51:43] <MrSunshine> i guess as that would be alot more tense then the rest of the piece =)
[16:51:48] <danimal_garage> yup
[16:51:56] <MrSunshine> gonna try that later .. now its time to hit the gym =)
[16:51:57] <MrSunshine> yey
[16:52:11] <danimal_garage> have fun
[16:52:18] <MrSunshine> thanks for the help :)
[16:52:23] <danimal_garage> no prob anytime
[16:54:00] <danimal_garage> so when i'm looking for servos, aside from hp/kw, what should i be concerned with as far as sizing it to my machine?
[16:54:43] <danimal_garage> i know i need to match it to a drive so voltage, ac/dc, current, etc are all important, but i'm just trying to figure out sizing now
[16:55:18] <danimal_garage> is there a direct relation between holding torque and hp?
[16:55:48] <danimal_garage> since i have a big machine and it might be going direct drive, should i find a lower rpm motor?
[16:56:43] <skunkworks_> so.. Who else masking tapes an extra fan on one of the server processors when the original one freezes? (didn't have any duct tape)
[16:57:38] <cradek> I've been known to swipe the space heater out of the VP's office and point it at the hard disks (heat setting off of course)
[16:58:39] <tom3p> danimal_garage: can you visit any machine shop with cnc's, looking at real stuff that works is good. the sizing of a motor requires some thinking in the physics realm, and the mathematical solutions are also in the physics realm. BUT looking at real examples goes a long way
[16:59:06] <tom3p> i've got 110 fans tie wrapped onto the ass of this box :)
[17:00:05] <skunkworks_> heh
[17:00:33] <cradek> skunkworks_: the space heater stayed there until that computer was retired when we moved office, a few years later
[17:01:13] <danimal_garage> tom3p, my machine is sort of an uncommon size so it'll be hard to find a close match
[17:01:15] <eric_unterhausen> it turns out using a touchpad on my drives pretty much disables being able to talk to the drives over rs232. seems like there should have been a warning in the manual
[17:01:38] <eric_unterhausen> no obvious way of resetting either
[17:02:19] <eric_unterhausen> I hooked up rs485 yesterday and caused smoke on one of the drives, don't know how that happens either
[17:02:27] <danimal_garage> only thing i can do is go with one that's from a bigger machine
[17:02:36] <danimal_garage> ouch
[17:03:23] <danimal_garage> all red top fanucs are dc, right?
[17:03:45] <eric_unterhausen> are they brushed?
[17:04:22] <danimal_garage> hard to tell
[17:04:38] <danimal_garage> http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=95-240-255&searchtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50&currentPageIndex=0&searchNAP=
[17:04:57] <eric_unterhausen> for brushless, I wouldn't worry too much about the dc/ac designation because it's really match up drives to motors if they aren't made to work together
[17:06:06] <eric_unterhausen> and I never found a brushed dc solution I thought I could live with for my BP series II
[17:06:33] <cradek> the factory setup on my series 1 works great
[17:06:44] <cradek> maybe you could find one to part out
[17:07:07] <eric_unterhausen> that's not an anilam is it?
[17:07:14] <cradek> no, boss 8
[17:07:22] <danimal_garage> hmm
[17:07:57] <danimal_garage> there's a ton of sanyo denki servo amps around for cheap
[17:08:01] <eric_unterhausen> too bad I'm on the other side of the country
[17:08:03] <danimal_garage> wonder why
[17:08:17] <eric_unterhausen> link?
[17:08:31] <cradek> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280399311282
[17:08:39] <danimal_garage> http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=13-405-138&searchtable=2&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50&currentPageIndex=0&searchNAP=
[17:08:42] <danimal_garage> for example
[17:08:44] <cradek> he's been trying to sell this one for years - I remember the funny pictures
[17:08:51] <ries> what awg size do you guys use for a stepper motors that uses about 5Amp and is around 10 meters away from teh control box
[17:10:38] <cradek> ha, in one of the photos, you can see there's a board out of it sitting on the table
[17:11:02] <danimal_garage> i guess too bad i dont live in connecticut anymore
[17:11:10] <danimal_garage> he woulda been local lol
[17:11:37] <eric_unterhausen> danimal_garage: there are lots of businesses going under, surplus is flush with this stuff
[17:12:11] <danimal_garage> one would think
[17:12:19] <eric_unterhausen> I used to know more about the sanyodenki equipment, but I've forgotten. Those drives look old
[17:12:23] <danimal_garage> they still want an arm and a leg for parts
[17:13:48] <danimal_garage> http://cgi.ebay.com/Sanyo-Denki-PV1-BL-Super-PV-Servo-Drive-Amplifier_W0QQitemZ400087420080QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5d27118cb0
[17:13:59] <danimal_garage> tons of those guys on ebay for cheap
[17:14:03] <danimal_garage> in different sizes
[17:14:23] <danimal_garage> couldnt find any data sheets so i dont know anything about them
[17:14:36] <eric_unterhausen> I think the bl super are yaskawas
[17:14:55] <eric_unterhausen> there used to be a place you could download the manuals, you had to register though
[17:15:53] <danimal_garage> they average 50 bucks
[17:15:57] <eric_unterhausen> I wouldn't buy one with missing front panel though, not for $45 especially
[17:16:05] <danimal_garage> http://cgi.ebay.com/Sanyo-Denki-BL-Super-Servo-Amplifier-with-SERCOS-PV2_W0QQitemZ400086346252QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5d27012a0c
[17:16:50] <cradek> ugh, look at all those odd connectors
[17:17:14] <eric_unterhausen> same as yaskawa
[17:17:40] <cradek> ah, one with wires - much better
[17:17:44] <eric_unterhausen> the funny thing is that the connectors aren't very expensive, but the hoods are ridiculous
[17:18:11] <eric_unterhausen> I hate it when they cut the wires, what a batch of idiots
[17:18:53] <danimal_garage> yea, connectors scared me away
[17:19:22] <cradek> at least you get the connectors then - wire is easy
[17:19:26] <eric_unterhausen> they shouldn't
[17:20:04] <danimal_garage> still dont know the size of it though
[17:20:12] <eric_unterhausen> those connectors are fine pitch so it's a pain to solder them
[17:20:29] <tom3p> mini-scsi2 4 rows of hell
[17:21:09] <eric_unterhausen> tom3p: that's why I wasted a lot of time on ebay and bought prebuilt cables
[17:21:16] <danimal_garage> lol
[17:21:27] <eric_unterhausen> they are often mis-listed
[17:22:00] <tom3p> i hand soldered the yaskawas and panasonics ( scsi2's) but local techs wanted to use crimp on flat bands. most failed, mine always worked ;) (solder is good )
[17:22:57] <eric_unterhausen> I wish I was better at soldering, I would never use crimp on those
[17:23:26] <tom3p> danimal_garage: that sany? i believe it 50W from the model number, google it to make sure
[17:23:36] <tom3p> sanyo
[17:23:42] <eric_unterhausen> i think that's too low
[17:23:58] <eric_unterhausen> but I've been wrong before
[17:24:19] <danimal_garage> yea 50w is wayyy too low
[17:24:51] <danimal_garage> i was thinking at least 1kw
[17:24:58] <danimal_garage> but i dunno
[17:25:02] <eric_unterhausen> i was thinking 500w
[17:25:18] <danimal_garage> you think?
[17:25:37] <eric_unterhausen> that's a guess
[17:25:38] <danimal_garage> hmm
[17:25:43] <danimal_garage> so was mine lol
[17:26:08] <eric_unterhausen> it just looks like the 500k yaskawas
[17:26:15] <eric_unterhausen> 500w
[17:27:24] <danimal_garage> oh i ment i was thinking i needed 1kw for my machine
[17:27:58] <eric_unterhausen> depends on your rapids
[17:27:59] <eric_unterhausen> but you might
[17:28:27] <eric_unterhausen> sad thing is I have a hard drive somewhere with a bl super manual hidden on it
[17:28:36] <danimal_garage> i'd be happy with 200ipm
[17:28:55] <danimal_garage> as long as the acceleration was good
[17:29:01] <danimal_garage> haha
[17:30:10] <eric_unterhausen> I want a NAS appliance where you can plug in your old hard drives and have them on the network
[17:31:28] <danimal_garage> that would be cool
[17:32:40] <eric_unterhausen> looks like it's not too hard to find cables on ebay if you are willing to pay
[17:32:45] <alex_joni> Dave911: hi
[17:32:56] <Dave911> Hi
[17:33:06] <alex_joni> one device that looks very interesting is the drobo
[17:33:13] <alex_joni> drobo+drobo share = NAS
[17:33:31] <Dave911> drobo - I haven't heard of that ....
[17:33:41] <alex_joni> http://www.drobo.com/products/drobo.php
[17:34:04] <alex_joni> haven't tried it myself, but it looks ok (judging by reviews & such)
[17:34:07] <Jymmm> alex_joni: yu have to wipe the drives to use it in drobo
[17:35:02] <alex_joni> Jymmm: Dave911 was looking for a NAS .. any advice?
[17:35:19] <Jymmm> Sure, how many hdd's?
[17:35:22] <Dave911> Looks like a fair amount to read about on that website.. The customer needs a NAS with Raid mirrored or Raid 5 - any opinions ?
[17:35:36] <Dave911> I guess at least 3 for Raid 5...
[17:36:08] <alex_joni> check the drobo video: http://www.drobo.com/resources/drobodemo.php
[17:36:13] <Jymmm> Dave911: Wait, do you just want a NAS, or do you want to reuse existing hdd's with content already on them?
[17:36:14] <Dave911> But 6 would not be out of the question.. they need to backup big file sets for Autocad inventor etc..
[17:36:38] <Jymmm> Dave911: and what kind of budget?
[17:36:50] <Dave911> The HDs would all be purchased new... this is an entirely new concept for them - long overdue IMO
[17:36:57] <Jymmm> Dave911: and usable capacity?
[17:37:06] <Dave911> $1500 to perhaps $2K
[17:37:14] <Jymmm> and capacity?
[17:37:19] <Dave911> capacity - the more the bettter
[17:37:27] <alex_joni> 2PB..2EB
[17:37:40] <Jymmm> Dave911: thats not a number
[17:37:44] <celeron55> that could mean anything between 500GB - 500TB
[17:37:49] <Dave911> 6 - 1tb or 1.5 tb drives would be great
[17:38:09] <Jymmm> Dave911: No, I said USABLE capacity
[17:38:25] <Dave911> OK, say 4 TB minimum
[17:38:43] <Jymmm> ok, hang on.
[17:39:07] <Dave911> I'm very patient when people are willing to help me.. :-)
[17:39:24] <alex_joni> are there any who aren't willing?
[17:39:43] <Dave911> yes.. I have met them .. ;-)
[17:40:13] <Jymmm> Dave911: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=12457814
[17:40:34] <alex_joni> Dave911: shoot 'em
[17:40:36] <alex_joni> :D
[17:42:01] <Jymmm> Dave911: That supports up to 10GB RAW
[17:42:38] <Jymmm> So maybe a conservative 6GB usable,
[17:42:47] <Dave911> That thought has crossed my mind .. :-)
[17:42:49] <Dave911> Jymmm: I saw that Walmart sells stuff like this before and I was really surprised .... Are they an ok place to buy stuff like this??
[17:42:50] <Dave911> I have read some decent things about Thecus before but I have never used on of their boxes
[17:42:59] <Jymmm> Both USB and Serial for UPS usage too
[17:43:08] <alex_joni> Jymmm: ewww
[17:43:13] <alex_joni> it's blue :/
[17:43:22] <alex_joni> * alex_joni hides
[17:43:24] <Dave911> Yes, I think the UPS interface is a really good idea ...
[17:43:47] <Jymmm> Dave911: They are not the fastest things, but you're not paying $3000 either.
[17:43:48] <Dave911> Blue is rather strange but it will probably go into a closet anyway
[17:44:03] <tom3p> heres a similar motor with amp in that BL series, i cant find the manuals for BL's no figger the coding from the number, bu this one's 350W, so 500W becomes reasonable guess for last unit
[17:44:27] <Jymmm> Dave911: You can also add-in modules for ssh access to it too.
[17:44:39] <Dave911> Speed probably can't be a huge concern for that kind of money
[17:44:52] <eric_unterhausen> jeeze tom3p, you doubted me?
[17:45:02] <alex_joni> dual g-bit with aggregation sounds fast enough
[17:45:45] <Jymmm> Dave911: It works, I yanked a hdd, waited a few minutes, tossed it back in, and it started to rebuild the raid.
[17:46:22] <Dave911> Oooooooo cool so you have one like that ??
[17:46:46] <Jymmm> Dave911: I played with one that we sent out to a remote office.
[17:47:16] <Dave911> So are those hot swap drive bays also?
[17:47:18] <Jymmm> Dave911: Just be sure to buy hdd's from different places - in case there is a mfg defect
[17:47:25] <Jymmm> Dave911: yes.
[17:47:44] <Jymmm> It can also be an iSCSI target too
[17:49:00] <Dave911> OK, well since you have first hand experience with this box I'll tell them to go with it. That means a lot.. Thanks! :-)
[17:49:03] <Jymmm> Dave911: If you get two of them, they can be configured to backup/fallover to the other too.
[17:49:04] <eric_unterhausen> Jymmm: I need a scsi to usb converter
[17:49:31] <Jymmm> Dave911: Plus if yu get it from walmart you have 90 days to return it
[17:50:05] <Jymmm> eric_unterhausen: SCSI? for what?
[17:50:08] <Dave911> Wow, that is a pretty powerful box for that kind of cash ..... 90 days is better than Newegg - most of the Newegg stuff is 30 days now it seems..
[17:50:23] <eric_unterhausen> to get some files off a hard drive
[17:50:54] <Dave911> Thanks guys .... I send the Company that link and see what they have to say.... that fits their budget perfectly with the drives.
[17:51:12] <eric_unterhausen> thought about seeing if there are any services, but the computer is dead, not the hard drive
[17:51:13] <Dave911> I meant.... "I'll send"
[17:51:37] <Jymmm> Dave911: Just be sure to tell them to buy hdd's from different places
[17:52:50] <Jymmm> eric_unterhausen: you dont have a spare box and a scsi card?
[17:52:59] <eric_unterhausen> no
[17:53:07] <Jymmm> usb2scsi adapters are $60+
[17:53:18] <eric_unterhausen> where?
[17:53:31] <Jymmm> anywhere, google "usb to scsi"
[17:54:14] <eric_unterhausen> never thought of that :)
[17:57:41] <Dave911> Jymmm: I usually buy drives from Newegg ... is anyone having issues with Seagates 1TB and up drives ?? I've read about some failures.
[17:58:40] <Jymmm> Yeah I've heard that too. I guess it's on to WD now. The 7 year cycle continues
[17:58:58] <Dave911> While on the supplier subject - does anyone have experience buying stuff from Tech Data ?? I just got signed up. That seems like a really strange company - really big and not so friendly.
[18:01:15] <Dave911> Hmmmm... you have heard the same thing also.... geez. And I have had really good experiences with Seagate in the past also .. I bought 20 WD drives last week but they say they are good drives - the 160 gb caviars. Long ago I had a bunch of bad experiences with WD and I haven't forgotten the pain from that yet..
[18:01:43] <Jymmm> yes, a 7 years cycle in hdd mfg's
[18:02:33] <Jymmm> well 5-7 years
[18:03:12] <eric_unterhausen> you buy enough hard drives, you'll experience heartache
[18:03:48] <Dave911> Yes I suppose so.. :-(
[18:04:17] <celeron55> so use raid and backups 8)
[18:05:50] <eric_unterhausen> just buy different date code drives or they'll all fail at once
[18:05:58] <eric_unterhausen> as Jymmm was implying
[18:06:11] <Dave911> Yes that is what I tell them.... but some people do not think that hard drives fail - seriously - and that if it does fail - it will fail next year. Things are fine now.
[18:06:33] <eric_unterhausen> they don't fail unless you need them not to fail
[18:07:34] <Dave911> >>buy different date code drives or they'll all fail at once
[18:07:35] <Dave911> I didn't pick up on that. Sort of like light bulbs I guess.
[18:08:57] <celeron55> i have one partition mirrored on two drives of different make and size on my small server :P
[18:09:04] <celeron55> i guess that's something you can rely on
[18:09:26] <eric_unterhausen> Dave911: it's happened to more than one organization
[18:09:44] <eric_unterhausen> drives often fail for a reason that is shared between drives
[18:09:47] <Jymmm> No necessarily, a friend had the same thing. one drive failed, got so hot it melted the mirrored drive.
[18:10:01] <Jymmm> Best is to mirror systems
[18:10:13] <Jymmm> preferably not in the same timezone
[18:10:15] <celeron55> Jymmm: hmm... maybe i should mount them further apart :P
[18:10:34] <Jymmm> celeron55: extra cooling doesn't hurt.
[18:11:09] <celeron55> though i guess that's several orders of magnitude better than a single drive, still
[18:11:38] <Jymmm> celeron55: eh, unless the control burns out
[18:12:09] <Dave911> The company who is asking me about this NAS box wants to use it for a backup server so the backup server and their other PC would have to die to lose the info.
[18:12:10] <Dave911> I'm always concerned that the PS is going to die an zap everything in the chassis.
[18:12:14] <celeron55> hdd's usually fail quite quietly
[18:12:40] <skunkworks_> Jymmm: are there any way to setup 2 ubuntu systems so that they are identical... on fails the other takes over? Am I making sense?
[18:13:01] <Jymmm> skunkworks_: yes
[18:13:03] <Jymmm> http://rdiff-backup.nongnu.org/
[18:13:27] <Jymmm> but you need to add in to account for the ip transfer too
[18:14:24] <Jymmm> rdiff-backup is rsync with incremental
[18:14:35] <skunkworks_> thanks - some reading to do.
[18:19:31] <spasticteapot> Is EMC compatible with pen plotters in any way, shape, or form?
[18:27:44] <danimal_garage> so i've been playing around with my velocity and accel
[18:27:54] <danimal_garage> it starts to stall a bit at 120ipm
[18:27:59] <danimal_garage> 110ipm seems to be ok
[18:28:37] <danimal_garage> i'm going to slow down the accel a bit and see if i can bump up the velocity
[18:29:17] <danimal_garage> then i'm going to run some tests to see if it's missing step in the higher speeds, or under a load
[19:03:18] <dave_1> Hi all ... just got a probe going but need help with the file ... probe program is posted at pastebin/ca as 100567
[19:03:21] <skunkworks_> danimal_garage: what are you doing with the machine... Higher accelleration might be better (like for contouring) than a higher max speed.
[19:03:47] <dave_1> problem is that I don't get data in the file. :-(
[19:04:59] <dave_1> opps can't proofread .... 1700567 should make more sense
[19:05:52] <danimal_garage> skunkworks_, i do mostly milling, and i';m trying to find a happy medium between accel and velocity, slightly favoring acceleration
[19:06:35] <danimal_garage> so far its looking like maybe 110ipm and accel set at 7
[19:07:58] <danimal_garage> once i pick up zero i'm going to write a program to jog all around the travel a couple dozen times then i'll check zero again
[19:08:27] <danimal_garage> then i'll know if it's a high speed issue i'm having, or a low speed under load issue
[19:12:12] <skunkworks_> you should run tort.ngc.. :)
[19:12:27] <skunkworks_> if you have the travel
[19:13:49] <danimal_garage> i have approx 23x10x5 that i can use without taking stuff off the machine
[19:14:32] <danimal_garage> it has 37x17x6 travel usually but i have things on the table that keep it from going that far
[19:17:41] <danimal_garage> opps sorry, 28x10x5 is what i can use
[19:18:16] <skunkworks_> dave_1: I don't know off the top of my head... Maybe (PROBEOPEN probe.test ) take the spaces out of the end of the comment.. Maybe you have a read-only directory the the probe.test is getting writen to?
[19:20:29] <celeron55> yes, try giving an absolute path for it
[19:20:44] <skunkworks_> does a 4 letter extention cause problems?.. .test?
[19:20:57] <celeron55> linux doesn't care about extensions
[19:21:17] <tom3p> 'DOS' a 4 letter extention cause problems?.. .test :)
[19:21:34] <skunkworks_> heh - I don't know what emc does with it...
[19:22:21] <cradek> do you get a file and it's empty?
[19:24:53] <skunkworks_> cradek: if he did - what would that mean?
[19:25:05] <cradek> I dunno
[19:25:20] <skunkworks_> heh
[19:25:38] <cradek> just trying to make sure I understand "don't get data in the file" before I guess
[19:26:06] <cradek> seems like he gets a file but it's empty, but you gave advice assuming that he doesn't get a file at all
[19:26:34] <skunkworks_> good point
[19:27:00] <dave_1> exactly ... I get the file but it is empty
[19:27:18] <cradek> where does it put the file?
[19:28:20] <dave_1> I think it puts it in the current directory ... where you were when starting emc. ... ~/emc2/configs/stg in this case
[19:28:32] <cradek> ok
[19:29:06] <cradek> I see we have (logopen,filename) and then (log,a string with things like #123 expanded) then (logclose)
[19:29:17] <cradek> I think that is a more flexible way to do this anyway - maybe try it?
[19:29:48] <dave_1> will probeopen take a path ?
[19:29:56] <cradek> yes looks like
[19:30:23] <cradek> you could even (log,G01 X#5061 Y#5062) to generate gcode output
[19:31:00] <skunkworks_> well - that is cool.
[19:31:26] <dave_1> guess I should try that ... btw ... I'm using probeopen .... as per G38.xx docs or at least that is the what I thought I read
[19:33:44] <cradek> yeah I thought that worked too... but the generic logging stuff is so much better I'd be tempted to just fix the docs if I find it doesn't work anymore :-)
[19:34:13] <bill20r3> jepler, what kind of bits/rpm do you use for PCB milling?
[19:34:56] <dave_1> guess it is time I go test some more ... I'm pretty well chilled from being in the shop. heaters are on full blast so eventually I'll get it warm
[19:35:05] <dave_1> enought to really do some work.
[19:36:29] <dave_1> have a new probe .... uses the logic.0.or etc. pretty impressive ... will post some stoff after I get logging going.
[19:36:37] <danimal_garage> haha my machine is soooo slow compared to that other shizuoka on youtube
[19:37:53] <danimal_garage> i have it putzing all around the travel at 110ipm to see if it skips step
[19:38:02] <jepler> bill20r3: precisebits.com EM2E8-0625-60V Mechanical etch bit (0.0625in carbide spiral flute for trace isolation milling. RCC08-0315-026F .0315in (0.80mm) dia. chip breaker for cuting out boards. various carbide number drills.
[19:38:17] <jepler> bill20r3: my spindle is approximately 20krpm (no speed control)
[19:38:29] <danimal_garage> wow thats fast
[19:38:30] <bill20r3> much thanks. I was just admiring your pcb's on your blog.
[19:38:36] <jepler> bill20r3: http://precisebits.com/applications/pcbtools.htm
[19:38:43] <bill20r3> they're very pretty.
[19:39:14] <cradek> bill20r3: http://timeguy.com/cradek/cnc/pcb two boards I did with those same pcb tools
[19:39:16] <jepler> for a short time I used the .0100in stub end mills, but I think the v-bits are better
[19:39:26] <bill20r3> wow.
[19:39:27] <cradek> I suspect those tools are the best you can get
[19:39:37] <skunkworks_> cradek: didn't you start with thinktink bits?
[19:39:42] <bill20r3> I suspect my "mill" is all kinds of sloppy.
[19:39:46] <dave_1> BBL thanks.
[19:39:49] <cradek> skunkworks_: same I think
[19:40:03] <skunkworks_> interesting
[19:40:25] <cradek> bill20r3: any backlash will make it impossible to make pcbs
[19:40:39] <jepler> bill20r3: I recommend getting the tools with the depth-setting rings; they're accurate enough that you can only need to touch off with the trace isolation tool
[19:40:40] <cradek> bill20r3: well anything over 10-20% of your desired trace width
[19:41:10] <bill20r3> It's not "done", but it moves & cuts enough to let me know what needs work.
[19:45:45] <skunkworks_> jepler: how fast are you cutting?
[19:46:10] <jepler> skunkworks_: over 20ipm, but I am not sure exactly how fast
[19:46:15] <skunkworks_> nice
[19:46:22] <skunkworks_> some day..
[19:46:26] <jepler> the machine where I run gcode.ulp isn't available at the moment, so I can't tell you what I'm using by default
[19:47:44] <cradek> fwiw I think I have 18-20krpm and I also cut at 20ipm
[19:47:59] <cradek> 30k would sure be nice
[19:48:23] <jepler> some day I'll actually measure my spindle's speed
[19:51:58] <skunkworks_> jepler: happy with the servos?
[19:52:10] <jepler> skunkworks_: yes
[19:52:33] <cradek> how much stuff have you done since then?
[19:53:56] <jepler> I've cut a number of PCBs
[19:54:19] <cradek> neat, I didn't know that. they turn out as well?
[19:56:38] <jepler> yeah they are coming out fine
[19:56:58] <jepler> I don't seem to have put any photos online tnough
[19:56:59] <jepler> though
[20:02:06] <danimal_garage> quick question while i'm here.... if i have a g53 programed, every line beneath it uses the g53 coordinates until i tell it differently, right?
[20:02:15] <cradek> no
[20:02:37] <cradek> when in doubt...: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/gcode_main.html#sub:G53:-Move-in
[20:03:29] <danimal_garage> good to know
[20:03:32] <danimal_garage> thanks
[20:09:35] <danimal_garage> well i got good news
[20:09:39] <danimal_garage> i think
[20:09:45] <danimal_garage> could be bad news
[20:10:40] <danimal_garage> after running my test program at 110ipm and accel set at 7, it went right back to xyz0
[20:11:35] <danimal_garage> i let it jog around for 10 minutes at max vel/accel changing direction alot and using the whole table
[20:12:05] <danimal_garage> so it is deffinately a low torque issue rather than a high speed issue
[20:12:09] <cradek> be sure your test program has G61, otherwise you're not using the full accel
[20:13:11] <danimal_garage> aww man
[20:14:12] <danimal_garage> so i gotta redo it
[20:17:21] <danimal_garage> ok its rerunning
[20:17:30] <danimal_garage> with a g61
[20:17:38] <danimal_garage> thanks cradek
[20:18:26] <danimal_garage> still confirms what i originally thought though, since before i had the velocity set at 85 and the accel set at 3
[20:18:42] <danimal_garage> now it's 110 and 7 and no problems
[20:18:52] <cradek> what did you change?
[20:21:20] <danimal_garage> well before i kept slowing it down thinking i was running it too fast because it would miss steps, but i had the suspicion that it would miss steps under a load at slow speeds instead of high speed so i cranked up the vel and accel to just under where it would stall and ran a test program at high speed with no cutting to see if it would miss step
[20:21:39] <danimal_garage> and it didnt
[20:22:11] <danimal_garage> so it is in fact loosing step at low speed, not in rapid
[20:23:00] <cradek> that's a sign of a resonance problem
[20:23:09] <cradek> is it microstepped?
[20:23:13] <danimal_garage> yes
[20:23:19] <danimal_garage> 8
[20:23:27] <cradek> huh
[20:23:54] <danimal_garage> microstepped 8 times
[20:25:22] <danimal_garage> hmm now that you mention it
[20:25:38] <danimal_garage> it doesnt sound very smooth at certain velocities
[20:26:39] <danimal_garage> i can especially hear it in the z axis at low speed
[20:26:57] <danimal_garage> but if i go up a percentage, it quiets down considerably
[20:28:41] <danimal_garage> wow that makes perfect snese
[20:29:49] <danimal_garage> it was moving at about 4ipm in z when i hear that weird change in pitch
[20:29:57] <danimal_garage> and that's a common feedrate for me
[20:30:08] <danimal_garage> 4-5ipm
[20:30:15] <cradek> sometimes you can move or eliminate the resonance by adding mass (or rubber) to the screw
[20:31:21] <danimal_garage> would changing the microstepping help?
[20:32:45] <danimal_garage> i think my old drives that were on the machine moved in half steps
[20:32:53] <danimal_garage> and there didnt seem to be a problem
[20:37:45] <danimal_garage> http://www.euclidres.com/apps/stepper_motor/stepper.html
[20:40:35] <dave_1> I'm back ... new program is at pastebin.ca/1700728
[20:41:34] <dave_1> creates file but one must be careful about spaces between logopen, and filename.
[20:42:30] <dave_1> what am I missing?
[21:05:27] <cradek> what do you mean what are you missing?
[21:06:41] <danimal_garage> cradek where do you think a good starting point is for microstepping with my nema 43's?
[21:07:00] <Jymmm> anyhow
[21:07:23] <danimal_garage> i've read some stuff that says more microstepping can help fix resonance, but then i read some stuff that said bigger motors dont neccesarily like alot of microstepping
[21:08:06] <cradek> I don't know anything to suggest except try the settings available
[21:08:08] <alex_joni> usually 4-10 microsteps is lots better than halfsteps, which is lots better than full steps
[21:08:24] <alex_joni> otoh the number of microsteps is dependent on speed
[21:08:35] <alex_joni> some drives turn microstepping off while at full speed
[21:09:16] <danimal_garage> i'm having low speed issues
[21:09:24] <danimal_garage> i had it set at 8
[21:09:46] <alex_joni> try different values is also my only advice
[21:09:47] <danimal_garage> 4 seemed pretty choppy
[21:10:28] <danimal_garage> yea, i've been trying a few
[21:17:48] <dave_1> cradek ... any ideas on the logging ... empty files are not very useful. ;-)
[21:18:31] <dave_1> do I need to put a log, X#5061, etc .... after each probe?
[21:18:55] <dave_1> or is it modal
[21:24:12] <alex_joni> dave_1: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/gcode_main.html#sub:G38.2:-Straight-Probe
[21:24:19] <alex_joni> A comment of the form (PROBEOPEN filename.txt) will open filename.txt and store the 9-number coordinate consisting of X, Y, Z, A, B, C, U, V, W of each successful straight probe in it. The file must be closed with (PROBECLOSE).
[21:24:44] <alex_joni> that one is specific for probing
[21:25:08] <alex_joni> there is another one for logging general purpose values (but you need to write them out using (log))
[21:27:41] <dave_1> alex take a look at pastebin.ca/1700569 ... I thought that is what I was doing but something doesn't work. BTW - updated emc yesterday
[21:30:08] <jt-plasma> any more ideas for a linux webcam capture and ftp program?
[21:30:22] <danimal_garage> hmm the sound changes when i change direction
[21:30:54] <ries> jt-plasma: there are pletory of tools/scripts and even streaming cam solutions
[21:31:30] <jt-plasma> I seem to have some problems finding them :)
[21:31:46] <jt-plasma> and or getting the ones I find to work :/
[21:31:53] <cradek> http://cserv.sourceforge.net/
[21:32:20] <danimal_garage> cradek if i can get these steppers working reliably, i think i'm going to get the hnc up and running with emc
[21:32:24] <bill20r3> camserv ftw
[21:32:36] <cradek> heh, last updated in 2002
[21:33:53] <cradek> danimal_garage: I remember that gene h put some kind of rubber dampers on his leadscrews to get rid of a resonance that was bugging him - maybe you should ask on the list if you can't solve it
[21:34:34] <jt-plasma> looks like camserv is for streaming videos to web browsers
[21:34:41] <alex_joni> dave_1: try probeopen and probeclose
[21:34:53] <alex_joni> I know I tried that successfully
[21:35:01] <cradek> alex_joni: he did that earlier and got an empty output file
[21:35:09] <alex_joni> hmm.. odd
[21:35:15] <cradek> well, he's getting an empty file with (LOG,...) too
[21:35:16] <danimal_garage> cradek will do, thanks. there is some rubber in my couplers, but i'm sure there is more i can do
[21:35:20] <cradek> he must be doing something wrong :-)
[21:35:22] <alex_joni> did the file exist before running the program?
[21:35:28] <dave_1> did you take a look athe pastebin?
[21:35:35] <alex_joni> I suspect the file might be readonly
[21:35:38] <cradek> danimal_garage: that might make it worse, actually. there is little/no mass directly connected to the motor shaft then.
[21:35:47] <alex_joni> created outside of emc2, with improper permissions
[21:35:54] <danimal_garage> hmmm
[21:36:53] <danimal_garage> i'm playing with the microstepping and accel now to see if i can get it quiet in the 4-6ipm range
[21:37:25] <danimal_garage> thats where i have the biggest issues
[21:37:30] <danimal_garage> i'm guessing
[21:37:56] <danimal_garage> i cut my ti and stainless at that speed
[21:37:59] <cradek> that's a pretty important range!
[21:38:07] <danimal_garage> and it seems to move most there
[21:38:25] <danimal_garage> yea
[21:38:44] <dave_1> hmmmmm ssh is handy and much warmer than the shop. file is -rw-r--r-- and is being created that way in this case by (log) but probably also by probeopen
[21:39:31] <danimal_garage> thanks for the help, i'm gunna go play with it a bit
[21:41:58] <dave_1> I suspect it did the same thing in my home directory
[21:43:38] <dave_1> so who need write perms to make this work.
[21:44:13] <dave_1> I can always create something like /usr/data as a directory to write to and load the perms.
[21:44:32] <cradek> I don't think it's permissions
[21:44:32] <dave_1> who needs
[21:44:37] <jepler> the "logopen" file is created in the directory with your config file, not in your home directory
[21:44:41] <cradek> if the file is being created the permissions are fine
[21:44:54] <dave_1> so what is missing?
[21:44:58] <cradek> specifying a path in your home directory is a good idea
[21:45:01] <jepler> if you have spaces in the logopen line, those spaces are in the filename
[21:45:14] <jepler> (I notice you have a trailing space in the file you pastebinned)
[21:45:16] <dave_1> Yes, I found that out
[21:45:17] <cradek> dave_1: I promise I'd tell you if I knew
[21:45:50] <alex_joni> also a comma before the filename, not sure if that's a problem
[21:46:05] <alex_joni> the manual just says: (PROBEOPEN foo.txt)
[21:46:20] <dave_1> can anyone duplicate this problem under 3.2.4?
[21:46:58] <danimal_garage> ok i got it quiet
[21:47:25] <danimal_garage> 6400 microsteps
[21:47:33] <dave_1> I think I've tried it both ways but who know ...
[21:48:01] <danimal_garage> i gues i'll set up a part and see how she cuts
[21:48:13] <dave_1> I'll go play some more. .... 4 Kw of heat should eventually impact the shop. :-)
[21:48:17] <dave_1> bbl
[21:48:34] <danimal_garage> lol i'm so glad i live in a warm climate
[21:51:23] <jepler> I ran this file in the development version of emc, and it did what I expected (put two lines in logfile.txt in the configs/sim directory):
[21:51:26] <jepler> (logopen,logfile.txt)
[21:51:29] <jepler> (log,line one)
[21:51:31] <jepler> (log,line two)
[21:51:34] <jepler> m2
[21:51:50] <cradek> worked with no logclose?
[21:51:56] <jepler> yes, actually
[21:51:59] <cradek> huh
[21:52:01] <jepler> though I should have included one..
[21:52:15] <jepler> (istr somebody may have added a flush in master which is probably not in 2.3; that would make a difference)
[21:52:39] <jepler> working on getting the stable version so I can test again
[21:52:40] <cradek> I bet STOP() or whatever it's called should close the two possible output files if they are open
[21:53:09] <jepler> dave_1's program had (logclose) so the problem wouldn't appear to be that..
[21:53:11] <cradek> would also be nice if hitting abort did that
[21:53:18] <cradek> yeah unless he didn't run it all the way through
[21:54:14] <jepler> if there were spaces in the filename at one time or another, I'd remove all files with related-looking names (in the file browser if necessary) before trying again
[21:54:21] <jepler> and yes, make sure to run to completion
[21:55:42] <jepler> with (logclose) 2.3 worked as expected.
[21:55:43] <dave_1> alex .... YES the comma does make a difference.
[21:56:17] <cradek> I think logopen needs the , and probeopen doesn't (ugh)
[21:56:44] <dave_1> appears to work without the comma ... i.e. (PROBEOPEN /home/dave/probe.txt) works.
[21:57:17] <dave_1> OK, now that I have something works I can be picky about some other details.
[21:57:46] <dave_1> THANKS for all the ideas and help.
[21:58:33] <dave_1> concerning lopopen and PROBEOPEN consistency re' comma would be nice.
[21:59:01] <dave_1> logopen .... great typing .. ugh with cold stiff fingers.
[21:59:20] <spasticteapot> Is anyone here familiar with pen plotters?
[21:59:38] <jepler> spasticteapot: I know they're a relic of the 80s that nobody in his right mind would want today
[21:59:49] <dave_1> will post when I'm happy with the probe.
[22:00:00] <dave_1> thanks again!
[22:00:30] <bill20r3> spasticteapot, pen plotters are retro-awesome. what do you need to know?
[22:00:37] <spasticteapot> I need a vinyl cutter, and was wondering if I could repurpose one.
[22:01:22] <spasticteapot> From what I understand, the key elements are the knife holder (not too expensive), the cutting surface (probably a wood strip), and a plotter of some sort.
[22:01:39] <spasticteapot> However, I'll be buggered if I can find any software that can make use of them, especially under Linux.
[22:02:17] <bill20r3> there is an inkscape plugin, afair.
[22:02:29] <bill20r3> they speak HPGL.
[22:03:26] <bill20r3> I wrote a tiny hpgl'ish interpreter for an avr.
[22:03:44] <cradek> man, what's wrong with freenode today?
[22:03:48] <bill20r3> "ish", in that it only handled a subset of hpgl, no arc's & stuff.
[22:07:00] <jepler> I'm certain that arcs are the fun part
[22:07:35] <cradek> spasticteapot: not sure if you got this earlier: pens don't use much pressure. their Z is fairly weak. an exception is the Mutoh models that can use pencil
[22:07:37] <bill20r3> I left them out, and just did 'flatten splines' before printing anytning.
[22:08:15] <alex_joni> cradek: nope, didn't make it through
[22:08:29] <alex_joni> your connection got reset by peer
[22:09:00] <spasticteapot> cradek: Neither do most cutters - the knife only penetrates through the vinyl, but not the paper below it.
[22:09:30] <alex_joni> still more force than a pen
[22:09:35] <spasticteapot> Hmm.
[22:09:55] <spasticteapot> Is anyone here familiar with how a plotter applies pressure? If it's a simple solenoid, goosing it up a bit wouldn't be too hard.
[22:10:49] <bill20r3> afair just a solenoid, but the rail it's attached to will be pretty weak.
[22:10:51] <jt-plasma> pen up, pen down
[22:10:58] <bill20r3> what model plotter do you have?
[22:11:33] <jt-plasma> want another pen plotter?
[22:12:08] <bill20r3> heh, no thanks.
[22:12:23] <spasticteapot> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFxZ4Tzhiqg
[22:12:32] <spasticteapot> I'd like one. :)
[22:12:46] <bill20r3> http://www.xmission.com/~bill/plotter2.mpg <-- whiteboard plotter thing I made.
[22:14:10] <alex_joni> jt-plasma: free shipping ?
[22:15:12] <jt-plasma> all the way to Dexter from there you have to pick up the cost of shipping
[22:18:14] <alex_joni> * alex_joni googles dexter
[22:18:39] <jt-plasma> it's just East of Dudley
[22:18:58] <alex_joni> MO?
[22:19:03] <jt-plasma> yes
[22:20:09] <alex_joni> 5438 miles
[22:20:15] <jt-plasma> LOL
[22:20:39] <jt-plasma> you will have to swim a bit of that too :P
[22:21:31] <MattyMatt> duh, I have a good surface table. I just spend ages working out how not to crack a well supported marble slab without twigging it's a well supported marble slab. just gotta scrape the paint off
[22:22:16] <MattyMatt> or rubber-glue a piece of glass on top
[22:24:18] <MattyMatt> my shop is taking shape. I've clamped my drill press at a good working height too
[22:24:31] <danimal_garage> pics or it didnt happen!
[22:24:48] <MattyMatt> I was afraid of that
[22:24:52] <danimal_garage> haha
[22:25:06] <danimal_garage> i still need to take pics of the new setup in here
[22:25:20] <danimal_garage> looks a bit different with my new lathe squeezed in
[22:28:22] <jt-plasma> * jt-plasma wonders if danimal_garage squeezed as much as I did to get a lathe in :)
[22:28:57] <danimal_garage> i'd be impressed if yours was as bad as mine
[22:29:38] <MattyMatt> this is a big house. floor loading and staircase are the limiting factors
[22:30:11] <danimal_garage> my shop wont make its way into the house
[22:30:30] <MattyMatt> there's a 10x8 shed underused if I need a concrete floor
[22:30:34] <danimal_garage> i keep her in the garage with a few things outside
[22:31:14] <MattyMatt> I'm not setting up any permannet shop at momma's tho. I need my own big house kthx
[22:31:27] <danimal_garage> yea, i got a 50'x12' covered patio out back that contains my wood working tools
[22:31:54] <danimal_garage> they got demoted to outside once the metal shop moved in
[22:32:07] <MattyMatt> I might cover this patio now you don't need planning permission
[22:32:20] <archivist_emc> build wall around patio...win
[22:32:41] <danimal_garage> dont need walls here, it's warm and dry all year
[22:32:53] <MattyMatt> momma's patio. it has to look nice. if it gets walled in it'll be glass
[22:33:02] <jt-plasma> http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Hardinge/hardinge02.jpg
[22:33:20] <jt-plasma> http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Hardinge/hardinge01.jpg
[22:33:27] <MattyMatt> "but momma, it's a beautiful machine"
[22:34:21] <danimal_garage> nice machine jt-plasma
[22:34:30] <jt-plasma> thanks
[22:34:30] <danimal_garage> i have an old hnc
[22:34:54] <jt-plasma> this is a CHNC I
[22:35:11] <danimal_garage> nice
[22:35:23] <jt-plasma> I still need to lower it to the floor and get it running
[22:35:26] <danimal_garage> mine's very clean, and awaiting an emc swap
[22:35:40] <danimal_garage> nowhere as nice as yours though
[22:35:42] <jt-plasma> it's Z4.5" from final position
[22:35:56] <danimal_garage> almost home
[22:36:06] <jt-plasma> yep
[22:36:16] <danimal_garage> mine's in place and wired
[22:36:24] <danimal_garage> but i havent used it yet
[22:36:39] <jt-plasma> * jt-plasma goes back to try and figure out how to ftp my web cam to my web server :/
[22:36:57] <jt-plasma> so robh can see what the screen says
[22:44:27] <alex_joni> jt-plasma: sudo apt-get install webcam-server
[22:45:15] <alex_joni> "Start up the server with the binary name of the utility and point your browser to http://localhost:8888 to configure it."
[22:47:05] <alex_joni> it's in universe in hardy ..
[23:05:08] <jt-plasma> alex_joni: I have webcam-server installed but get an error for http://localhost:8888
[23:05:38] <jt-plasma> I don't understand this "Start up the server with the binary name of the utility"
[23:10:09] <dimas> dpkg -L webcam-server |grep bin
[23:10:10] <dimas> /usr/bin
[23:10:10] <dimas> /usr/bin/webcam-server
[23:10:17] <dimas> probably that name
[23:11:15] <jt-plasma> dimas: dpkg shows /usr/bin/webcam-server
[23:12:05] <jt-plasma> I get no such device /dev/video0
[23:12:15] <eric_unterhausen> did you make the device?
[23:12:33] <danimal_garage> hmm well i cut 1 stainless piece and it went back to xyz0
[23:12:48] <danimal_garage> so far so good
[23:13:31] <jt-plasma> eric_unterhausen: I don't know :/
[23:13:46] <eric_unterhausen> it should be part of the installation
[23:13:50] <andypugh> what did you change?
[23:14:00] <eric_unterhausen> otherwise you have to create and link to the driver
[23:14:19] <jt-plasma> ok, I didn't do that
[23:14:57] <jt-plasma> I just plugged the web cam in
[23:15:04] <danimal_garage> andypugh: i did some tests to see if it was high speed issues or low speed
[23:15:07] <jt-plasma> cheezy sees it
[23:15:19] <danimal_garage> and it was low speed
[23:15:37] <danimal_garage> and cradek mentioned that it sounded like a resonance issue
[23:15:56] <danimal_garage> so i played with the microstepping and it looks to have smoothed out
[23:16:20] <alex_joni> jt-plasma: check dmesg
[23:16:30] <alex_joni> there should be something when you plug the camera in
[23:16:50] <jt-plasma> usb 4-4: new high speed USB device using ehci_hcd and address 9
[23:16:52] <alex_joni> you should be able then to symlink /dev/video0 to /dev/usbwhatever
[23:16:57] <danimal_garage> plus since i found out it wasnt high speed issues, i was able to crank up the velocity and accel a little
[23:17:00] <jt-plasma> usb 4-4: configuration #1 chosen from 1 choice
[23:17:17] <alex_joni> nothing else?
[23:17:31] <jt-plasma> uvcvideo: Found UVC 1.00 device <unnamed> (046d:0805)
[23:17:46] <jt-plasma> fingers are cold so they are working slow :0
[23:19:49] <andypugh> Sounds promising
[23:20:05] <jt-plasma> I just unplugged and plugged it back in and got this from dmesg
[23:20:09] <jt-plasma> [363167.259483] usb 4-4: USB disconnect, address 9
[23:20:11] <jt-plasma> [363170.514613] usb 4-4: new high speed USB device using ehci_hcd and address 10
[23:20:12] <jt-plasma> [363170.815776] usb 4-4: configuration #1 chosen from 1 choice
[23:20:13] <alex_joni> check if there's a /dev/video0
[23:20:14] <jt-plasma> [363170.816116] uvcvideo: Found UVC 1.00 device <unnamed> (046d:0805)
[23:20:29] <eric_unterhausen> almost always has to be created
[23:20:51] <jt-plasma> there is a /dev/video0 and 1
[23:21:00] <dimas> -d device
[23:21:01] <dimas> Specify the video4linux supported device to capture frames from.
[23:21:30] <alex_joni> /usr/bin/webcam-server -d /dev/video0
[23:21:46] <alex_joni> if that fails try video1
[23:21:52] <eric_unterhausen> if you had asked me this 7 months ago, I could have told you what to do off the top of my head
[23:23:00] <jt-plasma> could not open logfile '/var/log/webcam_server.log' for writing
[23:23:06] <jt-plasma> from video1
[23:23:32] <eric_unterhausen> sounds like a permissions problem
[23:23:36] <alex_joni> try a sudo in front of it
[23:23:42] <jt-plasma> ok
[23:23:45] <alex_joni> you can only write as sudo in /var/log
[23:24:19] <jt-plasma> no errors
[23:24:36] <alex_joni> now try localhost:8888
[23:25:43] <jt-plasma> I get Waiting for localhost... in the status bar
[23:26:02] <andypugh> I have a webcam somewhere I intended making into a centre-finder
[23:26:40] <alex_joni> jt-plasma: hmm.. sounds like webcam-server isn't listening
[23:26:52] <alex_joni> try a 'netstat -apn | grep webcam'
[23:27:13] <jt-plasma> kill the webcam-server first?
[23:27:29] <alex_joni> no
[23:27:49] <jt-plasma> it is doing a bunch of get_cam_image();...
[23:27:50] <alex_joni> netstat looks at open ports (from running programs)
[23:28:35] <jt-plasma> tcp 0 0* LISTEN 12105/webcam-server
[23:28:37] <jt-plasma> tcp 1 0 CLOSE_WAIT 12105/webcam-server
[23:28:38] <jt-plasma> tcp 0 0 ESTABLISHED 12105/webcam-server
[23:28:40] <jt-plasma> tcp 1 0 CLOSE_WAIT 12105/webcam-server
[23:28:42] <jt-plasma> tcp 1 0 CLOSE_WAIT 12105/webcam-server
[23:28:43] <jt-plasma> tcp 0 0 ESTABLISHED 12105/webcam-server
[23:29:22] <alex_joni> hmm.. seems like it's listening
[23:30:18] <alex_joni> anything in /var/log/webcam-server ?
[23:30:28] <archivist_emc> does your isp block ports
[23:30:36] <alex_joni> '/var/log/webcam_server.log' actually
[23:30:53] <alex_joni> archivist_emc: I doubt they can block port for localhost :D
[23:31:14] <archivist_emc> * archivist_emc was trying :)
[23:32:55] <archivist_emc> of course the router needs the port opening and forwarding to the pc
[23:33:16] <alex_joni> :80 is an apache
[23:33:25] <alex_joni> so I guessed it's directly to jt's pc
[23:33:53] <archivist_emc> yup but adsl routers come closed by default