#emc | Logs for 2009-11-28

[00:00:03] <ries> andypugh: clock from wood or metal?
[00:00:31] <andypugh> Metal
[00:01:12] <ries> spasticteapot: I was planning to buy punchers here to (LAtin America) but a 22mm version went for a crazy 140USD each :s
[00:01:16] <spasticteapot> andypugh: I was going to make the sides of the enclosure from a single slice of 8" x 12" steel tubing.
[00:02:54] <ries> andypugh: I am planning to make a sterling engine from alu, a version that can pump water for my cat's drinking fountain
[00:03:15] <andypugh> Powered by waste heat from the cat?
[00:03:44] <spasticteapot> Ries: I bought a set five punches - from 3/4" to 1.5" - for $30 shipped. :)
[00:03:48] <spasticteapot> eBay FTW>
[00:04:08] <spasticteapot> Does anyone know where I can get core bits of various sizes?
[00:06:10] <andypugh> eBay :-)
[00:06:52] <andypugh> search for "mag drill"
[00:07:23] <andypugh> But bear in mind that you can't use them freehand. You need the drill and work in rigid alignment
[00:07:59] <ries> andypugh: hahaha... no.. I am not sure... just ideas really
[00:08:18] <ries> spasticteapot: yeaa i thought so already... I think some crazy guy want to make some money from a gringo
[00:10:02] <andypugh> I think there is a significant range of qualities of the Greenlee/Q-Max style cutters, from cheap use-twice on aluminium to years of 8 hour shifts with the hydraulic puller level.
[00:10:57] <andypugh> For 3/16" steel I think I would be looking at a plasma cutter. And naturally it would end up being CNC
[00:12:14] <andypugh> http://stores.shop.ebay.co.uk/THE-ONLINE-MAG-DRILL-SHOP__W0QQ_armrsZ1
[00:27:36] <spasticteapot> andypugh: By "freehand", do you mean with a drill press?
[00:28:12] <andypugh> I meant without a drill press.
[00:28:37] <andypugh> They will work fine with a drill press, if the work is clamped down.
[00:29:10] <spasticteapot> I can do that.
[00:29:43] <spasticteapot> I bought the punches to make holes in 18ga. brass for vacuum tubes.
[00:30:57] <andypugh> http://www.emachineshop.com/machine-shop/CNC-Turret-Punching/page90.html
[00:31:04] <andypugh> Is another alternative
[00:33:19] <Danimal> cradek, are you in here?
[00:35:14] <andypugh> Night all
[00:35:22] <Danimal> night
[00:39:02] <spasticteapot> andypugh: Can you suggest an alternate source of square tube with rounded corners?
[00:39:23] <spasticteapot> Preferably 8"x6" - aluminum or steel.
[00:44:36] <ries> this was my today's project : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUHiGlzrYlA
[00:49:29] <spasticteapot> "This video is private."
[00:49:46] <spasticteapot> Does anyone know a good flush trim bit that can cut through 1/8" thick aluminum?
[00:57:22] <ries> spasticteapot: Ooo crap, let me see that
[00:58:53] <ries> spasticteapot: should work now... I could swear I ticked to private box...
[01:00:16] <spasticteapot> Works now.
[01:01:32] <ries> great
[01:24:41] <spasticteapot> Can I use masonry bits to cut annealed steel?
[01:24:56] <jt-plasma> no
[01:25:59] <archivist_emc> they dont have the cutting angles or chip clearances needed
[01:27:08] <jt-plasma> archivist_emc: your up late
[01:28:26] <archivist_emc> mebe :)
[01:28:36] <archivist_emc> only half one
[01:29:49] <archivist_emc> I have sharpened a masonry drill to open up a hole in cast iron
[01:30:03] <jt-plasma> I was fixing to say it is tomorrow there no?
[01:31:15] <archivist_emc> its today and dark and early
[01:31:37] <archivist_emc> I am ready for zzz
[01:31:42] <jt-plasma> I bet
[01:32:02] <jt-plasma> I mounted some new tires on the rims for the Ferguson today
[01:32:08] <jt-plasma> real purdy
[01:32:41] <archivist_emc> ! not playing with the hardinge
[01:32:45] <spasticteapot> I found
[01:32:57] <spasticteapot> I found out that Lenox makes hole saws that can cut through stainless.
[01:33:05] <spasticteapot> If it'll do that, it'll do softened steel easy-peasy.
[01:33:17] <jt-plasma> I have to install a 3 phase converter to go any more with the hardinge
[01:33:47] <jt-plasma> it wants to see the 3 phase and air to boot up
[01:33:59] <MattyMob> get a 3 phase windmill
[01:34:29] <MattyMob> "it's too windy for farming today, dear"
[01:35:16] <jt-plasma> perhaps I'll build a 3 phase wood gas generator
[01:35:20] <spasticteapot> Is stainless steel easier or harder to drill holes into than regular steel?
[01:35:39] <archivist_emc> stainless it hard to machine
[01:35:40] <jt-plasma> harder
[01:36:06] <jt-plasma> if you get it hot it will work harden in a nanosecond
[01:36:14] <MattyMob> and it gets harder v quickly when you start machining it, so cutting speed is critical
[01:36:56] <spasticteapot> Thanks - the hole saws only state they'll cut stainless, but I figure standard steel should be no issue.
[01:37:53] <MattyMob> they might be specially toothed to run at SS's prefered speed, but I guess that should be good for mild too
[01:38:13] <jt-plasma> run a hole saw real slow...
[01:59:08] <ries> hey all.. in the ubuntu installation, I noticed that a lot of processes are going on, on if it is going crazy right now (scrollkeeper-up at 50% CPU)
[01:59:34] <ries> would it not be better to have a Ubuntu installation that is cleaned from programs like that?
[01:59:41] <ries> it's just a though...
[02:17:40] <ries> How long would it take to load for example 3dtest.ngs?
[02:17:50] <ries> here it takes minutes... and still loading
[02:27:45] <tom3p> that is very long.
[02:28:46] <spasticteapot> Dumb question of the day: If I have a copper rod stuck through a steel sheet in a dry environment, can I expect galvanic corrosion?
[02:29:04] <spasticteapot> I'm pretty sure it requires some sort of electrolyte, but I wanted to check.
[02:29:19] <ries> tom3p: I just killed it
[02:29:40] <ries> tom3p: loading never finnished
[02:30:28] <tom3p> ries: i just loaded emc2 and tried it. 1 got "one missisippi, t..." thats all before it was loaded ( old way to measure seconds)
[02:30:51] <tom3p> not 2 seconds
[02:30:51] <ries> tom3p: I can cross the missisippi loading that file :)
[02:31:05] <tom3p> or swim the length
[02:31:16] <ries> much like that yes... against the stream ;)
[02:31:44] <tom3p> somethings wrong, does emc load ok? (try a sim)
[02:32:04] <ries> it seems to load ok...
[02:32:27] <ries> I must admit everything looks a bit in slowmotion, screenupdates, starting stopping and moving of windows
[02:33:05] <tom3p> did you run the latency test & get acceptable results?
[02:33:37] <ries> yes, and I get acceptable results but with spikes
[02:33:46] <ries> currently just dry testing...
[02:38:54] <tom3p> i'm on an 800mhz PIII coppermine 512Meg mem 1440x900 vid , Matrox MGA G450 vid ctlr, and i'm not sluggish ( unless i use the ubuntu system monitor, then i hit 100% cpu becuase i looked, aint that a stupid utility!, its < 10 w/o it!)
[02:41:59] <tom3p> argh! that file is inch! i want a metric lock on my machine!( no running 12 units in inch allowed, 12 in mm is ok )
[02:54:26] <roh> tom3p *g* me too.
[02:54:39] <roh> luckily nobody here uses imperials
[03:02:54] <spasticteapot> I have a sort of a stupid question: I'm making a box for which I have all the sides assembled. I need something to hold the top and bottom so that they can't move up or down.
[03:03:25] <spasticteapot> I was thinking of mounting four pieces of extrusion to the corners of the box, but I need something with a hole in the middle that I can thread so I can put screws in it.
[03:03:34] <spasticteapot> Is there such a thing?
[03:35:25] <DaViruz> tom3p: wow, that's almost like the heisenberg uncertainty principle, you can't determine the cpu load because the process of measurement changes it
[03:35:28] <DaViruz> :)
[03:45:32] <ries_> ries_ is now known as ries
[05:39:17] <tom3p> how can i change an uploaded picture on the wiki? old trick of loading new file with old name doesnt work. (overloading doesnt work )
[05:49:04] <fenn> upload under a different name?
[05:56:06] <tom3p> fenn: yes, just seemed a waste
[06:00:21] <jimbo655> When setting up a jog wheel with A/B encoding what variable do i link my pins to in HAL?
[06:29:12] <mik_> moin
[06:34:11] <tom3p> jimbo655: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Hooking_Up_A_MPG_Pendant
[07:23:35] <awallin> PCW: can I put PWM through the 7i37 ? it says Ton 2us and Toff 5us.
[07:24:10] <awallin> 25kHz PWM (square wave) would have a period of 40us
[09:54:40] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[10:10:34] <numen> hi
[10:24:11] <micges> hi
[14:43:50] <Jymmm> Oh gawd... It just took me 30 seconds to figure out what 4*5 was. Ok, I've officially lost it.... just shoot me now!
[14:55:45] <oPless> * oPless locks and loads ;)
[14:56:32] <Jymmm> * Jymmm light s a cigarette and puts on the blindfold
[15:00:11] <Jymmm> Ok, maybe it was due to me just waking up and have only had a couple sips of coffee. Even my cw lessons took me a few moments to recall
[15:12:23] <Danimal> i was thinking of doing an emc conversion on my lathe and i was curious about swapping my resolvers out for encoders
[15:13:01] <Danimal> the resolvers arent on the motors, they're on the ball screws, and there is some gear reduction
[15:13:31] <Danimal> that shouldnt be a problem with putting the encoders on, would it?
[15:14:03] <Danimal> or do the encoders need to match the rmp's of the servo?
[15:15:03] <Danimal> i thought i could possibly fudge it with the encoder's count
[15:17:51] <jmkasunich> Danimal: you should be able to adjust the scale factors
[15:18:03] <cradek> where will you put the encoders?
[15:18:34] <jmkasunich> any ppr encoder with any gear/pulley ratio and any screw pitch, the result is some number of counts per inch (or mm), and you use that number for your scale - it doesn't even have to be an integer
[15:19:16] <cradek> the resolvers are geared UP from the screw, not reduced (way up)
[15:20:30] <cradek> (sure are a lot of HNCs around)
[15:21:25] <cradek> I can sure imagine mounting a modern (very high res) encoder to the screw itself - but then where can the tach go?
[15:22:10] <jmkasunich> cradek: did Danimal say this was an HNC earlier? or are you assuming?
[15:22:22] <cradek> he emailed me about it
[15:22:26] <jmkasunich> ah
[15:22:52] <cradek> what a pleasant long weekend this is
[15:23:34] <jmkasunich> we had light flurries yesterday
[15:23:34] <jmkasunich> today is sunny but cold
[15:24:32] <Danimal> oh i didnt realize i still needed the tach
[15:25:17] <cradek> you need the tach if you use the amps
[15:25:21] <Danimal> i thought the encoder would go straight on the shaft where the whole resolver assembly is
[15:25:28] <Danimal> ah ok
[15:25:38] <Jymmm> cradek: jepler: I always think of you two as partners in crime. So I thought it kind of funny that jepler made that etch-a-sketch cnc and cradek makes clocks when I heard someone is making a etch-a-sketch clock using a uC which re-draws the minute/hour hands every minute =)
[15:25:41] <Danimal> good to know
[15:27:14] <Danimal> it's raining here
[15:27:20] <Danimal> for the first time in a while
[15:27:32] <Danimal> it was like 85 yesterday
[15:28:32] <roh> * roh is restless
[15:28:34] <cradek> if you are replacing the amps with something that doesn't need velocity feedback, I agree you could just take that whole geared thing off
[15:29:13] <Danimal> then i'd be getting into the same cost of getting those pico cards like you have
[15:29:19] <Danimal> if not more
[15:30:24] <cradek> yep
[15:30:39] <MOGLI> I want to get few input from user and use it in GCODE as variable is it possible??
[15:30:46] <MOGLI> runtime inputs...
[15:30:51] <cradek> I concentrated on "what's the way I'd like it the best" since I figured it'd cost plenty of money any way I did it.
[15:31:36] <Danimal> what do you think about lengthening the shaft that drives the resolver assembly and mounting the encoder a little farther back?
[15:32:19] <Danimal> that way there'd be no gear reduction other than the belt pullies
[15:32:28] <Danimal> and the tach can stay
[15:33:11] <cradek> so leave the tach where it is, and extend the center piece back to an encoder? you'd have to make a new housing but I think it would work
[15:33:23] <cradek> Z is easy to extend
[15:33:33] <cradek> but with X it might not fit anymore
[15:34:35] <cradek> in the cabinet I mean
[15:34:43] <Danimal> yea you're right
[15:34:51] <Danimal> looking at it now
[15:36:56] <Danimal> i wonder how compact of an encoder i can get
[15:37:42] <Danimal> i can still pop off the resolver and put a gear on the shaft coming out the back, and put the encoder a little over to the side where the resolver is, and gear it 1:1
[15:37:49] <Danimal> fairly easily
[15:38:20] <cradek> not for under $150 per axis, no way
[15:38:38] <cradek> even not including the cost of days of work
[15:40:14] <Danimal> ugh
[15:40:38] <Danimal> ok you win this round
[15:40:42] <Danimal> lol
[15:40:43] <cradek> haha
[15:40:55] <cradek> not a competition - just trying to help
[15:41:08] <Danimal> i know, much appreciated
[15:41:52] <cradek> very worst case is buying encoder, doing days of work, then putting it back together in a huff and buying the resolver board :-)
[15:42:08] <cradek> that's what I REALLY wanted to avoid
[15:42:30] <Danimal> when i asked you about the power supply for the servos, i ment a power supply for the amps... i know they take 110v, correct?
[15:42:40] <Danimal> i hear ya, makes sense
[15:42:54] <cradek> I think the DC bus is 100v
[15:44:28] <Jymmm> I know what an encoder is, but what's a resolver?
[15:45:25] <cradek> an older analog technology that gives position information - used where an encoder is used today
[15:45:41] <cradek> it's sort of a transformer where the coils rotate
[15:46:07] <cradek> you give it an AC signal and you get sin/cos out - you can determine the position that way
[15:46:32] <Jymmm> ah, ok.
[15:46:34] <Jymmm> ty
[15:47:23] <Danimal> ugh so i need to keep that big stinking power supply, huh
[15:47:27] <cradek> they're superior in some ways - they're absolute so you can sense the position at startup, and determine index without extra parts
[15:47:46] <Jymmm> So you get a waveform back, and the amplitude or phase is altered depending on position?
[15:47:49] <cradek> Danimal: the servo supply is actually quite small, mounted on the floor
[15:47:50] <Danimal> oh, they are absolute?
[15:47:58] <cradek> Jymmm: yes, phase
[15:48:21] <cradek> Jymmm: er, no, the two amplutides (sin and cos)
[15:48:56] <cradek> Danimal: yes the pico board uses that information to generate an index pulse for you
[15:49:31] <Danimal> is the big transformer to the left on the floor part of that power supply as well?
[15:50:28] <cradek> I think there are two on the floor - bigger one is logic supply, smaller is servo dc bus
[15:50:36] <Danimal> ah ok
[15:50:39] <Danimal> perfect
[15:50:50] <Jymmm> cradek: Sorry man, I just don't know trig. So mentioning sin/cos is kinda useless to me (for now) =)
[15:50:57] <Danimal> that'll fit in the hofman enclosure i just picked up
[15:50:58] <cradek> conveniently, servo supply is single phase
[15:52:06] <Danimal> i just found this electical surplus supply place down th road, i got a bunch of goodies for like $30
[15:52:22] <cradek> Jymmm: if you think of a circle, left and right has cosine minimum and maximum and sine is zero. up and down has sine max and min, cosine zero
[15:53:00] <Danimal> i got a pannel with a bunch of push buttons, led's, and an estop for $10, and a good sized hoffman enclusre full of good stuff for $20
[15:53:06] <cradek> so as you turn it, the signal swooshes back and forth between the two, and you can always tell where on the circle you are
[15:53:36] <cradek> Danimal: those places are sure nice to have around
[15:53:44] <cradek> I have one in my garage (hahaha)
[15:53:56] <Danimal> they have a ton of motors, might grab a 3hp for the lathe
[15:53:58] <Danimal> hahaha
[15:54:11] <Danimal> that's like me with car parts
[15:54:39] <eric_unterhausen> I have one in my basement, it's famous
[15:54:54] <Danimal> i have a nice 3hp kicking around that will bolt up, but it's 3500rpm's
[15:55:17] <Jymmm> cradek: Ok, a sin & cos is sorta an XY of a circle... wouldn't a pot sorta provide the same information (but as degrees of a circle)?
[15:56:10] <cradek> yes and that's how model airplane servos get their feedback
[15:56:34] <Jymmm> ah
[15:56:57] <cradek> (and they can't turn all the way around because of it)
[15:57:32] <Jymmm> cradek: Oh since you mentioned them... do RC servos only do 0-360 and not actually spin?
[15:57:44] <cradek> and yes sin/cos are very much Y/X for a circle
[15:58:06] <cradek> they don't do 360, more like 240ish?
[15:58:08] <archivist_emc> and in general pots cannot deal with full rotation, but there was a special that had two wipers and three connections to the continuous track
[15:59:09] <Danimal> so i need a quad counter card along with the resolver converters? something like the mesa 4i30?
[15:59:13] <archivist_emc> and they wear, not good for production machines
[15:59:26] <cradek> Danimal: 7i33
[15:59:29] <tom3p> right, resolver is non contact
[15:59:46] <cradek> archivist_emc: yeah I was going to say that too, but resolvers also have brushes that wear (but not nearly as bad)
[16:00:25] <cradek> bbl
[16:01:54] <Danimal> thanks for the help
[16:01:57] <Danimal> again
[16:02:03] <Danimal> aios
[16:02:09] <Danimal> adios*
[16:06:31] <eric_unterhausen> resolvers don't have brushes?
[16:08:05] <archivist_emc> can be brushless
[16:09:04] <archivist_emc> http://www.moog.com/products/resolvers/rotary-variable-differential-transformers-rvdt-/
[16:09:44] <eric_unterhausen> I haven't seen a huge number of resolvers, but none have had brushes
[16:42:53] <andypugh> http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=11629
[16:43:06] <andypugh> Completely mad design of railway.
[16:47:15] <archivist_emc> ive seen pics of that but never a film :)
[16:47:54] <archivist_emc> next, find the gyro locomotive that ran on one rail
[16:49:37] <frallzor> how fun, put my angle grinder in my hand
[16:50:56] <archivist_emc> andypugh, http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/brennan/brennan.htm
[16:53:15] <Jymmm> I'm not sure I want to buy a scope that includes 5.25" floppy.. http://www.mgoodguy.com/pics/TEK-2211-E203505-1.jpg
[17:06:32] <eric_unterhausen> Jymmm: I think that's the scope I have
[17:07:25] <eric_unterhausen> From a certain lugubrious quality in her facial expression, one has to conclude that the young lady was not entirely happy with her situation.
[17:08:32] <cradek> Jymmm: have you found any site that compares the different models of tek scopes? the number of models and options is baffling
[17:08:53] <eric_unterhausen> doubt such a thing exists
[17:09:25] <eric_unterhausen> kidnap an older tek salesman, and torture the info out of hm
[17:18:35] <jmkasunich> cradek: first step is probably to narrow down the era (I assume you aren't talking about current products)
[17:19:22] <cradek> the era I think I want is the mixed analog/digital that does storage but also works as a regular analog scope
[17:19:38] <cradek> I think that means 22?? but not all 22?? are storage
[17:20:19] <cradek> ideally I want to spend no more than about $150
[17:20:40] <jmkasunich> do you mean storage tube storage? or digital storage?
[17:21:14] <cradek> digital storage. I have the storage tube type and it's great for some stuff but there's no way to view before the trigger
[17:21:19] <cradek> (or zoom)
[17:21:29] <jmkasunich> right - I can't stand storage tube tech
[17:21:40] <cradek> it's much, much better than no storage
[17:22:00] <cradek> I like how you can set it to fade slowly away
[17:22:01] <jmkasunich> but I don't know if there are many hybrid analog/digital ones - that was a short period
[17:22:15] <cradek> I used it on a project that had a serial signal every few seconds - it let me see it
[17:22:51] <jmkasunich> 2465 is a 300MHz analog only, 2440 is a 500Ms/s digital
[17:22:52] <cradek> I dislike the pure digital I've seen. they don't work like "a scope" (that I'm accustomed to)
[17:23:12] <jmkasunich> in what way?
[17:23:22] <cradek> I'm positive the modern pure digitals are fine, but I don't want to pay for one
[17:23:39] <eric_unterhausen> I think some of the early digitals made it hard to find your signal
[17:23:54] <cradek> I have trouble seeing what's going on, and if a signal isn't nicely regular and easily triggered, you can't even find it
[17:23:59] <eric_unterhausen> now you hit auto and it gets you in the ballpark
[17:24:19] <jmkasunich> I've found my 2440 pretty nice to use
[17:24:45] <jmkasunich> I don't do a whole lot of scopeing at home tho, and at work things are newer - 744 and 754 series
[17:25:24] <cradek> I guess I'm set on an analog/digital - seems like the best of all worlds
[17:25:38] <cradek> I'd like to know which models have that, and ideally I'd like to find one with rs232
[17:25:51] <cradek> gpib is a distant second, no output is probably also ok
[17:26:19] <cradek> seems like the going price is about $140 as-is or $500 calibrated/tested
[17:26:27] <eric_unterhausen> I have a 2445, it's twin got crushed in the dumpster if you can believe it
[17:26:45] <jmkasunich> cradek: going price for what?
[17:27:06] <cradek> 2230/2232 on ebay
[17:28:17] <cradek> 4 channel (2246) is also cheap - tempting but no storage as far as I can tell
[17:28:34] <jmkasunich> have you looked at http://www2.tek.com/cmswpt/psfinder.lotr?cn=2200&lc=EN
[17:29:01] <cradek> ooh, thanks
[17:29:15] <jmkasunich> don't thank me yet, seems like the data has been removed
[17:29:17] <jmkasunich> bastards
[17:29:32] <jmkasunich> oh, but some manuals are there
[17:30:11] <cradek> for instance I haven't determined the difference between 2230 and 2232, but I notice (from ebay photos) that 2235 is non-storage
[17:32:44] <jmkasunich> BAMA seems to have manuals for 2230 and 2232: http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/tek/
[17:33:58] <cradek> cool, one is ops and one is service
[17:35:31] <jmkasunich> I think bama is about as good as it gets for free manuals
[17:35:39] <cradek> yep
[17:38:23] <jmkasunich> I'm not seeing anything so far in the 2232 manual that implies storage
[17:39:54] <eric_unterhausen> cool, they had a service manual for my scope
[17:40:13] <cradek> digital acquisition and memory: 3-34
[17:40:46] <jmkasunich> duh, I'm looking at the 2236 manual
[17:41:49] <cradek> looks like 2232 has 4x the memory of 2230
[17:42:40] <jmkasunich> what is the max sample rate?
[17:42:55] <cradek> 100MHz, same as analog bandwidth
[17:43:19] <jmkasunich> with the 2440, they got 500Ms/s by using an analog CCD delay line - those are unobtanium, so you need to be very carefull when buying as-is
[17:43:26] <jmkasunich> dunno if that is true for the 223x or not
[17:45:09] <cradek> heh, rs232 up to 2400 baud
[17:45:20] <cradek> (plenty fast enough for a plotter)
[17:45:27] <jmkasunich> hope your PC can keep up
[17:45:30] <cradek> dang, wish my plotter still worked
[17:45:54] <eric_unterhausen> did they work with a plotter?
[17:46:19] <cradek> yeah lots of scopes plugged right into hp pen plotters
[17:49:16] <cradek> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370296852618
[17:49:21] <cradek> "good project"
[17:50:29] <eric_unterhausen> i guess the electronics recyclers wanted too much money to dispose
[17:53:07] <cradek> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380181641235
[17:53:14] <cradek> looks like 2221A has rs232
[18:39:43] <eric_unterhausen> I wonder how many people have re-written Anders' 5i20 test panel
[18:53:04] <ries> hey guys, I can't help wondering this (if I may ask..): How does MACH3 solves the real time aspect of driving the steppers over parallel port, or can't it and it just assumes your PC is fast enough?
[18:54:08] <eric_unterhausen> it doesn't have to be real-time
[18:54:23] <eric_unterhausen> steppers generally work if you go "as fast as possible"
[18:54:44] <SWPadnos> it's not really realtime, and it doesn't play well with certain other tasks running
[18:55:19] <SWPadnos> a '286-12 is capable of generating a perfectly stable step output, but not if you throw in other tasks running at the same time
[18:56:33] <eric_unterhausen> they hooked a timer interrupt or something like that
[18:56:40] <SWPadnos> sort of
[18:57:13] <SWPadnos> they have the periodic interrupt, but the code also checks the TSC every once in a while to see if another step is needed, and it'll wait a bit longer if one is "coming up soon"
[18:57:32] <SWPadnos> it's like cooperative multitasking
[18:57:37] <ries> SWPadnos: eric_mill : ic... so is it then true that EMC2 can generate a better pulse train and more consistent?
[18:57:47] <ries> this because it want's a RTOS?
[18:57:53] <SWPadnos> yes, that's what the scope plots have shown
[18:58:11] <eric_unterhausen> isn't mach a little faster?
[18:58:25] <eric_unterhausen> on average
[18:58:37] <SWPadnos> it can be
[18:59:01] <SWPadnos> but we run on worst case, they run on best case (for the most part)
[18:59:36] <ries> interesting... I couldn't get MACH3 running though... I just couldn't help wondering why there isn't a latency test :)
[18:59:51] <SWPadnos> once you measure the latency of the PC, you can be pretty well assured that the performance will never get worse than that
[19:00:01] <SWPadnos> yeah, I've wondered that too :)
[19:00:26] <SWPadnos> we give you the tools to see just how bad each PC is, so you can decidebeforehand whether it's good enough for your application
[19:01:07] <SWPadnos> when I tried Mach, I found that I had to shut down WinAmp first, or the system became very very sluggish
[19:01:42] <SWPadnos> the entire timer system got slowed by a factor of 10 or something, so pop-up tooltips would take a minute to pop up
[19:01:44] <SWPadnos> or menus
[19:02:06] <SWPadnos> and of course music would stutter or repeat all the time
[19:02:14] <ries> SWPadnos: MACH3 often grinded to a hold on a 1.2GHZ machine... I still have some issues with EMC2, but before I jump into conclusion I am going test test first on a 'real' PC... at least I could test my hardware with it :9
[19:02:36] <SWPadnos> 1.2GHz is far more CPU power than you should need
[19:03:00] <SWPadnos> with EMC2, it's more the chipset that matters
[19:03:13] <ries> SWPadnos: something is fishy going on with this PC (laptop) I am going to put it aside and try with something else
[19:03:25] <SWPadnos> you can get a $89 motherboard (with CPU) that runs at 1.6 GHz, and you'll have some of the best latency numbers around
[19:03:30] <frallzor> ries I ground 2 rails today
[19:03:31] <SWPadnos> (the Intel D945GCLF2)
[19:03:32] <frallzor> buuuut
[19:03:53] <frallzor> I ended up with 2 shitty rails and the angle grinder in my hand :P
[19:03:55] <SWPadnos> laptops are generally not appropriate due to SMI and power saving issues
[19:03:55] <ries> frallzor: how did it go?
[19:04:10] <ries> frallzor: hahahah.. that's why I said... have fin :)
[19:04:11] <ries> fun
[19:04:23] <frallzor> grinding was no fund
[19:04:30] <frallzor> stiching up the wound was
[19:04:33] <frallzor> * -d
[19:04:36] <ries> SWPadnos: indeed.... I am waiting for a new PC...
[19:04:42] <ries> frallzor: Ooo...crap
[19:04:46] <frallzor> =P
[19:04:47] <ries> How did that happen?
[19:05:12] <danielfalck> SWPadnos: where are you getting the motherboards from?
[19:05:17] <frallzor> I got a little careless and since the "screen" is removed I kind of got the disc on my hand :P
[19:05:25] <SWPadnos> I got mine from NewEgg
[19:05:49] <danielfalck> like one of these? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121359
[19:06:18] <frallzor> but its no biggie, been hurt worse and it was just the y-rails, cheap to replace =)
[19:06:40] <frallzor> now im looking into what to do instead of grinding, that grinding rig was bloody useless
[19:06:56] <SWPadnos> danielfalck, yep, that's the one
[19:07:13] <SWPadnos> add $20-50 for RAM and a hard drive, and you're all set
[19:07:26] <danielfalck> SWPadnos: cool. thanks
[19:07:41] <SWPadnos> and with a PicoPSU, you can run the thing from a 12-24V DC supply (like the one you probably already have in the control cabinet)
[19:08:03] <danielfalck> as in Jon's PSU?
[19:08:05] <ries> frallzor: I always did use heavy gloves doing that.. I touched a couple of times the disk lighly, but teh glove protected me...
[19:08:28] <frallzor> I used them but for some reason i didnt put them on that time :P
[19:08:28] <SWPadnos> it takes about 29W total, with a mesa card and solid state disk, under load
[19:08:32] <ries> frallzor: The grinding rig Gerald designed??
[19:08:38] <frallzor> yeah
[19:08:42] <frallzor> useless pos
[19:08:56] <SWPadnos> danielfalck, dunno - you'd need an extra 30W or so of headroom
[19:09:00] <frallzor> there is no logic with it
[19:09:02] <SWPadnos> or spare capacity
[19:09:11] <eric_unterhausen> SWPadnos, which one did you use?
[19:09:18] <SWPadnos> which which?
[19:09:19] <frallzor> Im looking into getting pre-fab rails now
[19:09:24] <eric_unterhausen> which pico psu
[19:09:33] <SWPadnos> the 90W wide input range one
[19:09:39] <ries> frallzor: it worked perfectly fine with me...
[19:09:48] <frallzor> cutting the angle iron was no issues, but the grinding no no no
[19:09:50] <SWPadnos> it also powers a 5-port gigabit switch without issues
[19:10:00] <ries> I did put a level bulb (what's teh name in english) on it to make sure I am griding level
[19:10:23] <ries> frallzor: there are alu rails... it might work since you will not use to machine a whole lot?
[19:10:54] <frallzor> asked around about it, so it seems alu is not for me
[19:11:14] <andypugh> ries: Spirit Level
[19:11:24] <frallzor> im getting new iron and then im either getting pre-fab rails or getting them machined
[19:11:58] <frallzor> last resort is using that shitty rig =)
[19:12:53] <frallzor> with some luck the place where I build has a nice mill I can use (they have a few, just hope they are suitable)
[19:13:03] <ries> andypugh: yup :)
[19:13:49] <ries> frallzor: Not sure about your current work situation... but if you have a work bench then it's pretty painless
[19:14:29] <eric_unterhausen> SWPadnos, who did you buy the pico psu from? Is it the 80w? don't see a 90w wide input
[19:14:30] <frallzor> a little table and a marble tabletop on it
[19:14:30] <ries> my printer cable was not fully wired... so I need to find a new printer cable :s
[19:14:42] <ries> nobody has the old style printer cables anymore
[19:14:45] <frallzor> so its perfectly solid and nice =)
[19:14:45] <SWPadnos> mini-box.com
[19:15:09] <SWPadnos> I also have access to about 14 of their M300-LCD cases for cheap
[19:15:21] <SWPadnos> slightly used, but in perfect condition
[19:16:42] <danielfalck> http://www.mini-box.com/picoPSU-90
[19:17:04] <eric_unterhausen> danielfalck, he said wide input
[19:18:28] <andypugh> Do you think these would be an upgrade or a downgrade from a 3.5Nm rated NEMA 23 Stepper?
[19:18:28] <SWPadnos> hmmm. they could be the 120W ones
[19:18:29] <andypugh> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330378741342&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_1970wt_888
[19:18:30] <eric_unterhausen> it's nice that the m300 comes with a riser
[19:18:41] <SWPadnos> yes, the riser is helpful
[19:18:53] <SWPadnos> the full-size slot is why I chose that case
[19:19:08] <SWPadnos> (rather than low-profile - it's still short, but long enough for a 5i22)
[19:20:12] <andypugh> Or eBay 330378741342 of that URL wraps too much
[19:20:18] <ries> be back later
[19:20:22] <SWPadnos> you could use the 60W PSU, I measured 29W (or maybe it was 26W) at the input to a wall-wart that was running one of these motherboards
[19:20:38] <SWPadnos> with 2G RAM and a 32G SSD, running a couple of copies of glxgears
[19:20:50] <SWPadnos> and some other thing that chewed up CPU cycles
[19:21:12] <SWPadnos> oh, and with two fans running (the CPU fan and the case fan)
[19:21:38] <eric_unterhausen> did you replace the used ones with something else?
[19:22:07] <SWPadnos> we customized some Bud enclosures to hold other stuff and special connectors
[19:22:17] <SWPadnos> so those M300-LCD cases became superfluous
[19:23:16] <SWPadnos> I think he was going to sell them for $25 or $35, just to get rid of them
[19:23:34] <andypugh> Supplementary question... Can you run a brushless servo using a generic brushless motor controller chip, as long as the chip understands hall sensors?
[19:24:18] <eric_unterhausen> andypugh, I wouldn't count on it
[19:25:38] <andypugh> I think those servos are 1Nm. I imagine that 1Nm @ 4000rpm is a lot more useful than 3.5Nm holding torque though.
[19:28:47] <numen> is it possible, to build a styropor cutter with emc2?
[19:29:08] <numen> there i would need 2 x and two z axis but no y axis
[19:29:50] <andypugh> Dual X gantry machines work, so I can see no reason why not
[19:30:23] <numen> nope i need different speed for first and second x and z axis
[19:30:36] <numen> so that i can cut an airplaine profile
[19:30:52] <eric_unterhausen> then that wouldn't be two z
[19:31:30] <andypugh> You might not be able to see it properly in Axis, but emc knows nothing about the axis arrangements, it just calls them axis.0, axis.1 etc.
[19:31:49] <eric_unterhausen> kinematics would be a bit of a problem
[19:32:13] <andypugh> Depends if you need kinematics
[19:32:31] <eric_unterhausen> you use kinematics or the front end is not there
[19:32:35] <andypugh> Does it need to solve for hot wire length?
[19:33:04] <andypugh> By "front end" you mean the screen display?
[19:33:20] <eric_unterhausen> i mean input file->movement
[19:33:35] <numen> andypugh nope hot wire lenght would not be necessery
[19:33:53] <andypugh> No reason you cant just call them X, Y Z and A and drive to positions.
[19:33:54] <numen> this i would solve mecahnical
[19:34:06] <numen> but ive no cam for this
[19:34:24] <numen> inventorcam is not possible for use
[19:34:26] <eric_unterhausen> I've seen someone build a preprocessor for a puma robot that does something simialr
[19:35:06] <andypugh> I think the answer is "Yes, you can do it trivially, but the better you want it, the more work it will take"
[19:35:28] <cradek> XZ/UW is a much better choice than XYZA
[19:35:46] <cradek> consider what happens if you program G20 or G21 with XYZA
[19:36:30] <andypugh> Indeed, I was just making the point that EMC doesn't need to know anything about where or what the axes are to drive them to positions.
[19:36:35] <numen> cradek what does xz/uw mean?
[19:37:03] <andypugh> Circular moves would get interesting too...
[19:37:05] <cradek> if you have x,z and another thing like x,z you'd call the secondary ones u,w
[19:37:12] <danielfalck> uw are incremental moves right?
[19:37:17] <cradek> no
[19:37:28] <danielfalck> sorry, thinking of programming in cam
[19:37:35] <andypugh> No, extra linear axes
[19:37:43] <numen> so i think, i would have to load two files for xz/uw
[19:37:47] <SWPadnos> use XY UV
[19:37:56] <numen> one for xz and one for ow
[19:37:58] <numen> uw
[19:38:01] <cradek> no
[19:38:15] <numen> which cam does support this?
[19:38:23] <cradek> I'm not sure what you're trying to do, so I don't know if the advice is good
[19:38:36] <danielfalck> numen: sorry, I got off on a different tangent-
[19:38:36] <eric_unterhausen> he wants to cut something like a wing
[19:38:41] <eric_unterhausen> foam cutter
[19:38:58] <danielfalck> numen: wasino lathes use uw as incremental moves akin to xz
[19:39:27] <eric_unterhausen> http://video.google.com/videosearch?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=emc2+foam+cutter&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=T3wRS_ieAZGZlAeQu8mbBA&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCUQqwQwAw#source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=emc2+foam+cutter&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=T3wRS_ieAZGZlAeQu8mbBA&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCUQqwQwAw&qvid=emc2+foam+cutter&vid=4421284810644497599
[19:39:45] <eric_unterhausen> apparently you can't do it
[19:39:55] <eric_unterhausen> who you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes
[19:40:26] <andypugh> CAM should be easy. You just need the two end profiles with the same number of steps in each, and EMC will visit each (X,Z)(U,W) point in sequence.
[19:40:46] <numen> yes, foam cutter is the right name for it ^^ sry for my bad english
[19:41:14] <numen> andypugh the profile is just 1 spline
[19:41:49] <eric_unterhausen> search for emc2 foam cutter
[19:42:40] <numen> but i need a cam solution for this, too ^^
[19:42:59] <cradek> some machines (especially lathes) use UVW as incremental. some machines (especially wire) use UVW as an offset from XYZ
[19:43:01] <eric_unterhausen> we don't do cam :)
[19:43:17] <cradek> some machines (using EMC) use UVW as a second set of linear axes that you can use however you like
[19:44:24] <numen> cradek it would be no problem for me, duing two cam jobs for the small and the big side, but how can i say emc2 to use both? 1 for xz and one for uw?
[19:44:57] <eric_unterhausen> I must be dense, but is it possible to set the value of a pin using the keyboard and halcmd?
[19:46:31] <cradek> setp pin value
[19:47:05] <eric_unterhausen> thx
[19:47:35] <SWPadnos> but that will have no discernible effect if the pin is connected to a signal
[19:47:52] <SWPadnos> since the value will be taken from the signal the next time the thread runs
[19:47:53] <cradek> but it'll error?
[19:47:57] <eric_unterhausen> I just want to set the pwm of a 5i20
[19:47:58] <cradek> no?
[19:47:59] <SWPadnos> I don't know
[19:48:13] <SWPadnos> that might be smart :)
[19:48:47] <tarzan> divider head seems to be the most interesting
[19:53:11] <andypugh_> andypugh_ is now known as andypugh
[19:54:06] <eric_unterhausen> is hal show runnable from halcmd?
[19:54:17] <cradek> loadusr halshow
[19:55:21] <eric_unterhausen> cradek I can load halmeter, but halshow says exec failed
[19:55:31] <eric_unterhausen> execv(halshow) failed
[19:57:11] <cradek> maybe it has a different name
[19:57:11] <cradek> halshow.tcl? guessing
[20:07:30] <numen> I just had an argument with a girl I know.
[20:07:30] <numen> She was saying how it's unfair that if a guy fucks a different girl every week, he's a legend, but if a girl fucks just two guys in a year, she's a slut.
[20:07:30] <numen> So in response I told her that if a key opens lots of locks, then it's a master key.
[20:07:30] <numen> But if a lock is opened by lots of keys, then it's a shitty lock. That shut her up. ”
[20:10:10] <eric_unterhausen> you showed her
[20:10:23] <jepler> that's a stupid analogy, and it doesn't speak well of you.
[20:11:15] <numen> jepler found in inet ^^
[20:16:13] <numen> ive the same girlfriend since a few years ^^
[20:21:47] <andypugh> numen: For combining X,Z and U,W you could write some python/matlab/perl script. Personally I would paste the lot into Excel, text to columns, swap the X and Z column values for U and W, then combine the sheets and save as space delimted yext.
[20:24:08] <numen> hmmm
[20:24:57] <numen> not so easy ^^
[20:25:19] <numen> not the first project i want to do, first i want to build a new cnc mill
[20:31:16] <jimbo655> Are you able to load the touchy inerface into 2.3.4-1?
[20:34:42] <numen> ?
[20:38:43] <cradek> no
[20:38:50] <cradek> at least part of it won't work
[20:40:10] <jimbo655> Is it in the Beta release?
[20:40:18] <cradek> there is no beta release
[20:40:30] <cradek> it is in git master, the current development branch that will eventually be 2.4.0
[20:41:00] <cradek> you can certainly compile and run it if you like
[20:41:09] <jimbo655> What is the status of the 2.4.0 branch?
[20:41:25] <cradek> there isn't a 2.4 release branch yet, only master
[20:41:40] <cradek> master is in good shape as far as I know. I've been running my mill on it for some time.
[20:42:04] <jimbo655> Usable, Buggy, not so buggy?
[20:42:09] <andypugh> Aye, it did a stellar job of my M39x4mm thread.
[20:42:34] <cradek> thatsa big thread
[20:42:58] <andypugh> Certainly usable. I have noticed no problems.
[20:43:19] <andypugh> Aye, a big coarse thread made with a paper encoder...
[20:43:31] <jimbo655> Sounds good looks like a new project for jim........
[20:44:36] <andypugh> The M39 thread is a dummy spindle nose so I can mount a chuck on my rotary axis to hold an encoder disc to machine it. Bit of a catch-22
[20:45:15] <andypugh> But I pulled the whole thing apart today to swap to a 7i43.
[20:45:20] <cradek> sounds roundaout!
[20:45:21] <cradek> b
[20:46:44] <andypugh> Well, I wanted an ER16 collet holder for the rotary too, so made a combination thingy.
[20:52:52] <andypugh> Hmm, ebay has 4 Fanuc yellow cap A06B servos. 2 are at £200, and 2 at £999.
[20:54:10] <tarzan> amperes, W?
[20:54:22] <andypugh> Probably different.
[20:55:09] <andypugh> A06B-0642-8011 Servo Motor Model 5M
[20:55:15] <andypugh> Means nothing to me.
[20:56:51] <andypugh> I suspect the job-lot of 18 fanuc servos for £1800 is a bargain, if you want 18 x 20kw servos...
[21:04:04] <eric_unterhausen> if I use setp, does the write function have to be called for it to take effect?
[21:07:27] <SWPadnos> eric_unterhausen, the HAL input pin will immediately get the written value, but the write function needs to be called for that to get sent to the hardware
[21:09:25] <eric_unterhausen> SWPadnos: thanks
[21:26:32] <jt-plasma> robh: you around?
[22:03:23] <numen> drawing an airplane is a fucking work...
[22:22:38] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[22:45:06] <numen> why shall i always draw the modell airplains for my chief?
[22:46:16] <robh> jt-plasma, im about now if u still want me
[22:46:46] <jt-plasma> I'm back robh
[22:47:57] <robh> hows it going
[23:01:36] <MattyMatt> http://www.pcbmotor.com/ impressive
[23:02:52] <eric_unterhausen> just think if you had your coffee cup track you as you moved around the room
[23:05:50] <archivist_emc> self stirring coffee cup
[23:06:16] <MattyMatt> ring motors would be handy for all sorts in robots
[23:06:20] <eric_unterhausen> if the coffee cup tracked you, you could pick up the handle without looking
[23:07:09] <MattyMatt> they'd sell in on geekstore
[23:07:14] <MattyMatt> ^it
[23:07:31] <MattyMatt> and whatever that place that sells the caffeine pills is called
[23:07:37] <andypugh> there's a GeekStore?
[23:07:47] <andypugh> Bye Bye pay packet
[23:09:53] <eric_unterhausen> now that I've gotten my lathe working I can say the same for that
[23:11:13] <archivist_emc> whats the gcode for make me a coffee
[23:11:46] <eric_unterhausen> i need that
[23:12:20] <MattyMatt> nobody has made that yet?
[23:12:53] <eric_unterhausen> not enough relay outputs on a 7i37, has to wait
[23:12:58] <archivist_emc> wives have stubbornly refused to run gcode
[23:13:06] <MattyMatt> the tricky bit is "find a cup and wash it". probably need g++code for that
[23:13:14] <eric_unterhausen> wash it?
[23:13:20] <eric_unterhausen> explain
[23:13:59] <MattyMatt> M02 X Y Z where xyz is the co-ords of dishwashing machine
[23:15:36] <MattyMatt> * MattyMatt attaches percolator to roomba
[23:15:42] <MattyMatt> that'll do
[23:16:30] <eric_unterhausen> my wife got one of the single serving machines, you could automate that without too much work
[23:16:39] <MattyMatt> mm gantry in the pantry. tell momma it's an appliance, not science
[23:17:25] <MattyMatt> yes momma, they'll be so jealous down at the bingo
[23:18:02] <eric_unterhausen> i just opened another terminal instead of issuing a cd command, can't remember why
[23:19:29] <andypugh> You know, I haven't seen an actual percolator for years, they seem to have gone totally out of fashion
[23:20:03] <MattyMatt> they a pita. I mean a nice filter jug
[23:20:06] <eric_unterhausen> you can't even buy the filters at my grocery
[23:20:36] <eric_unterhausen> because those work in my krupps, and they are hard to find
[23:20:43] <MattyMatt> I use a cafetiere but they're deadly as they don't filter the oil
[23:20:54] <andypugh> A friend of mine used to be sure that there was a market for White Goods lathes, kitchen appliances for perfectly cylindrical carrots and precision Brussells Sprouts
[23:21:16] <MattyMatt> it's marketing. get it on QVC
[23:21:31] <eric_unterhausen> andypugh, there is a factory near here that makes little carrots out of big carrots
[23:21:40] <eric_unterhausen> but they aren't perfect
[23:22:11] <andypugh> As I understand it a percolator dribbles hot water through coffee grounds over and over again
[23:22:37] <MattyMatt> yeah pita for a tiny cupful
[23:22:41] <eric_unterhausen> at some point it's dribbling "coffee"
[23:23:14] <andypugh> Sort of a thermo syphon thing. My parents would set it going at the start of a special meal, and it would be done by the end.
[23:23:34] <andypugh> But that one would make enough coffee for about 12
[23:23:45] <MattyMatt> neat
[23:23:57] <MattyMatt> * MattyMatt makes one from butane bottle
[23:23:57] <eric_unterhausen> I'm thinking about getting a technivorm
[23:24:53] <andypugh> Then they had a Kona thing, which had a jug with a funnel on top. You boiled the jug dry, it all bubbled up to the funnel (where the grounds were) then you turned the gas off, and it sucked the coffee back down into the jug
[23:26:15] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percolator all sounds about right
[23:27:11] <andypugh> Aha! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_coffee_maker
[23:34:20] <eric_unterhausen> I'm sure there's a reason why function 'hm2_5i20.0.write' needs FP
[23:36:17] <Jymmm> cradek: No, I haven't. After seeing that photo, I never realized how old some of these scopes are. 5.25" floppy gives me 20+ years, but that scope hardly looks that old. Even when I look at Tek's website, they only say "DISCONTINUED" for the most part. Guess we need a birth/death/zombie date(s) db
[23:41:30] <andypugh> talking of which, I keep nearly buying one of these:
[23:41:31] <andypugh> http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Fasteners-Production-Equipment/Test-Equipment/Oscilloscopes/PDS-Series-2-channel-colour-oscilloscopes/80709
[23:41:41] <andypugh> would I probably regret it?
[23:49:52] <awallin> andypugh: looks like a Tek copy
[23:50:04] <andypugh> That sounds good :-)