#emc | Logs for 2009-11-19

[00:10:08] <Guest943> Is it possible to use emc with a mesa pci card to control a machine that has linear and rotary encoders on the X and Y axis? (the x axis has 2 servos/encoders/linears)
[00:10:51] <Valen> you can I believe but its a bit advanced
[00:11:14] <Valen> IE you need to know what your doing somewhat in terms of HAL and such like
[00:12:14] <Guest943> Any links on where to start? Oh and the machine is rack and pinion if that matters
[00:13:06] <andypugh> Do you have a config at all at the moment?
[00:13:50] <Valen> I reckon to start with the rotary encoders and get it moving ;-> then look at how to go about adding the other encoder
[00:13:59] <andypugh> And why do you need both?
[00:14:02] <Guest943> I am just researching right now. But I have a spare machine that has emc installed
[00:14:06] <Valen> somebody has done that for a mill that had a huge backlash
[00:14:31] <Valen> the linears measure the actual position the rotaries the velocity so the PID loop can close
[00:14:38] <Guest943> The current setup uses both encoders, so I figured I should use them
[00:15:02] <Valen> if its rack and pinion it'd probably have a lot of backlash as well
[00:15:14] <Valen> hence the dual encoder setup
[00:15:57] <andypugh> It ought to be possible. Well, it is possible, by definition. The question is whether you can do it with existing HAL components, or need to compile more in Comp, or need to modify the EMC source code.
[00:16:16] <Valen> it has been done
[00:16:23] <Valen> without changes to EMC
[00:16:31] <Valen> it was hal magic i believe
[00:16:47] <Valen> they made a 2 stage PID loop or something equally nuts ;->
[00:16:54] <Valen> its been posted in here before
[00:16:57] <andypugh> I would guess that you would close the servo loop with the rotaries, and feed the linear information into the backlash compensation code.
[00:17:08] <Valen> (11:14:30) Valen: the linears measure the actual position the rotaries the velocity so the PID loop can close
[00:17:20] <andypugh> Aye, no reason that a PID can't be an input to PID
[00:17:33] <andypugh> At work we have them stacked 3 and 4 deep.
[00:18:05] <Guest943> currently it is controlled with a galil 1040 ISA card and dos software, and all the PID is done with the card
[00:18:36] <skunkworks> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/blosxom/shoptask/wichita-trip-02-20-08.html
[00:18:37] <Valen> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Combining_Two_Feedback_Devices_On_One_Axis
[00:18:43] <Valen> thats the dude
[00:18:44] <andypugh> EMC sounds like a win then, you can at least look at the values in Halscope and see what is going on.
[00:19:03] <Valen> the wiki seems to indicate how to do it
[00:19:14] <Valen> guess he got what he wanted lol
[00:19:31] <andypugh> He followed a link, the embedded client booted him
[00:19:32] <Valen> or those links took him away from the page with the IRC client in it
[00:19:36] <Valen> lol
[00:19:38] <Guest943> sorry, can you repost those links
[00:19:45] <Valen> (11:18:36) skunkworks: http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/blosxom/shoptask/wichita-trip-02-20-08.html
[00:19:45] <Valen> (11:18:36) Valen: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Combining_Two_Feedback_Devices_On_One_Axis
[00:19:46] <andypugh> I have heard it only does that the first time.
[00:19:53] <Valen> open in new tab perhaps? ;->
[00:20:03] <Valen> get a real mans IRC client lol
[00:20:56] <Valen> I'm thinking of making one of these http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=74585&d=1233097738
[00:21:21] <Valen> I have done some rough quackulations and I'm planning on heat fitting the rings onto the rollers
[00:21:28] <pfred1> Valen what for?
[00:21:32] <Valen> rotary table
[00:21:44] <andypugh> Friction drive?
[00:21:49] <Valen> yeah
[00:21:59] <andypugh> Seperate angular encoder?
[00:22:01] <pfred1> looks like a planetary missing some parts
[00:22:17] <Valen> for a 100mm nominal diamiter I need to make the ring 99.984 mm in diameter
[00:22:29] <andypugh> It's more of a vernier drive
[00:22:33] <Valen> (thats to get ~2000kg force on the rollers)
[00:22:47] <Valen> its a planetary traction drive
[00:22:56] <Valen> its more like a train ;->
[00:23:12] <andypugh> Yes and no...
[00:23:18] <Valen> anyway
[00:23:38] <Valen> the hard part as I see it is to actually make those rings and planets the right size and round
[00:23:55] <andypugh> The gear ratio is only from the difference in diameter of the pair of rollers, so not a conventional planetary
[00:23:55] <Valen> I have a mill with .001 linear scales and a lathe with .005
[00:23:58] <Valen> any hints?
[00:24:26] <Valen> it is driven from the inner roller, so the first stage is a standard planetary
[00:24:27] <andypugh> Have three rollers?
[00:24:38] <Valen> yes of course it will have that
[00:24:43] <andypugh> Make the rings flexible
[00:24:44] <pfred1> when I worked in a machineshop whenever we wanted anything closer than .003 we ground it
[00:25:07] <Valen> Trying to work out how to do that at home is the hard part
[00:25:13] <Valen> I would like to grind it as well
[00:25:31] <andypugh> Dremel in the toolpost. I have done it and it works
[00:25:48] <pfred1> people trying for closer than .003 with cutting tools are well the kind of people I run into a lot on the Internet :)
[00:25:50] <Valen> get you to that level of accuracy?
[00:26:08] <andypugh> But if the rings are viewed as springs you don't need that accuracy
[00:26:42] <andypugh> Depends if you mean 0.003mm or 0.003"
[00:26:44] <Valen> you do because if its not round and you are dealing with 2000KG of force, its pretty hard to push the roller "up hill" past a thick spot
[00:27:19] <Valen> the static force on the rollers is 666kg or so each so that it wont slip when cutting
[00:27:24] <andypugh> I really doubt that any spot will be perceptibly thicker
[00:27:34] <pfred1> chuck some grinding compound in it work it then clean it when you're happy
[00:28:05] <pfred1> things have a way of seating during break in :)
[00:28:09] <andypugh> With little or no sliding I think grinding compound will just make it work better :-)
[00:28:40] <Valen> I doubt you would feel it either by hand but with 2 tonnes of force by default a high spot could easily require 30kg of force to actually push past
[00:28:46] <Valen> not a good thing on a rotary table
[00:29:06] <Valen> how would you measure it though is the question?
[00:29:16] <pfred1> Valen well you're ambitious I'll give you that
[00:29:24] <Valen> gotta start somewhere ;->
[00:29:30] <pfred1> we had an air rotary table for grinding on
[00:30:10] <andypugh> I think you are misunderstanding things. 30kg is only a small percentage of the 2000kg you are already dealing with.
[00:30:23] <Valen> the thing is the 2000kg is statically balanced
[00:30:28] <andypugh> Where are you by the way?
[00:30:29] <Valen> the thing should spin freely
[00:30:32] <Valen> australia
[00:30:58] <andypugh> Did you get the Ford Fiesta 1.0l Zetec with the suprcharger?
[00:31:04] <Valen> but imagine a peice of grit under a roller with 2000kg worth of load on it
[00:31:04] <Valen> well 600kg
[00:31:17] <andypugh> Bye-Bye grit?
[00:31:24] <Valen> no lol I have a 4 liter straight 6 falcon ;->
[00:31:42] <andypugh> Thing is, the supercharger drive was very similar to that
[00:31:44] <Valen> no, it means you couldnt spin the thing
[00:31:57] <pfred1> Valen yeah I was thinking along those lines a very clean room mechinism
[00:32:24] <Valen> need to get some traction oil too ;->
[00:33:04] <Valen> Its not a new mechanism, NASA had one with 50Krpm input at 100HP in a 200mm disk
[00:34:57] <pfred1> Valen NASA also spent a quarter of a million to design a pen that'd write in 0 G when a pencil would have worked fine!
[00:35:26] <Valen> actually the problem with pencils is graphite powder floating through electronics and astronauts lungs :-<
[00:35:45] <Valen> they could have used a felt tip though, that probably would have worked ;->
[00:35:48] <andypugh> The supercharger was a little simpler. Three ball bearings (normal radial type deep groove balls) on spigots on a plate with a degree of float (but bolted down tight after assembly). Tight fitting ring round the outside of all three. Then a rather thin shaft was a tight fit in the middle. Gear ratio is shaft diameter to ring diameter.
[00:35:52] <Valen> (my degree is space science)
[00:36:20] <Valen> in that layout in 100mm OD we are getting a 250:1 reduction
[00:37:10] <andypugh> Valen: You will like this then :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I
[00:38:30] <Valen> lol
[00:38:46] <Valen> garh damn youtube caching
[00:39:06] <Valen> so pfred1 how would I go about measuring it do you think?
[00:39:23] <pfred1> Valen internal gauge?
[00:39:53] <Valen> I'm a space scientist not a machinist ;-P whats that?
[00:40:12] <pfred1> ah let me see if I can find a pic of one
[00:40:21] <andypugh> It's a gauge. For measuring internally :-)
[00:40:22] <Valen> lol actually I work in IT mainly, but space science sounds cool enough that people don't ask if i have any qualifications to be mucking with their computers lol
[00:40:31] <Valen> andypugh where are you?
[00:40:35] <andypugh> UK
[00:40:42] <Valen> I need to know if its worth the plane ticket to slap you ;-P
[00:41:30] <andypugh> For the link or the gauge bit?
[00:41:33] <pfred1> http://dijite.en.alibaba.com/productshowimg/212579068-200297143/Digital_Bore_gauge.html
[00:41:40] <Valen> the guage bit lol
[00:42:05] <andypugh> The three-point ones are probably better.
[00:42:11] <Valen> hmmm would be hard to get exactly across the center thouth I'd imagine
[00:42:18] <andypugh> But I think you would be looking to borrow, not buy
[00:42:19] <Valen> oh 3 point one sounds promising
[00:42:25] <pfred1> Valen longest distance it isn't that hard
[00:42:28] <Valen> lol perhaps
[00:42:49] <andypugh> Oh, it is that hard!
[00:42:55] <pfred1> yeah gauges is where the money can go fast
[00:43:12] <andypugh> The fun and games I had trying to measure some 4" dia x 12" long wheel bearings
[00:43:20] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[00:43:33] <andypugh> Externally the geometry has one solution, internally that really is not the cas
[00:45:01] <pfred1> this gauge isn't even what I thought it was looking at it more closely
[00:45:10] <pfred1> but they sort of look like that
[00:46:04] <andypugh> http://www.mitutoyo.com/TerminalMerchandisingGroup.aspx?group=1522
[00:46:18] <andypugh> Can you use a 4" bore/
[00:46:24] <andypugh> Buy http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Mitutoyo-3-6-4-0-Holtest-bore-Micrometer-0-0002_W0QQitemZ260504830026
[00:46:31] <andypugh> Make your part, then sell it :-)
[00:47:04] <pfred1> andypugh if you can I wonder how many buying right now?
[00:47:41] <andypugh> None, but I reckon that is the hight starting price.
[00:47:55] <ds3> ewwwwwwww alibaba
[00:48:14] <Valen> I'd be worried about it getting shipped here lol
[00:48:23] <andypugh> That AU$ has gone up a lot, I am sure they were 4 to the pound last time I ordered something from Aus
[00:48:26] <Valen> I wonder how out of round the bearings on our lathe are
[00:49:02] <andypugh> I really think that the solution is resilient rings
[00:49:18] <Valen> they would be challenging to machine
[00:49:38] <Valen> you would need to do the outside and the inside very accuratly
[00:49:44] <andypugh> Machine on a stub, then part off
[00:49:51] <pfred1> milling a block square is challenging to me :)
[00:50:58] <pfred1> I think long and hard before I tackle a job whether it is feasible or not
[00:51:06] <andypugh> Steel-on-steel mu is 0.7 (though it seems it used to be 0.15 in 1962)
[00:51:18] <Valen> andypugh got any more info on that super charger?
[00:51:29] <Valen> its .05 for an oiled steel on steel though
[00:51:31] <andypugh> So I really doubt you need 20kN proload
[00:53:00] <andypugh> I am not finding much on the web
[00:53:05] <Valen> me either
[00:53:18] <andypugh> I am not even sure what I saw was a production part.
[00:53:57] <Valen> we were thinking of either using tapered rollers and tapering everything else to fit then basically winding the whole thing togther
[00:54:20] <Valen> or we have an idea for a somewhat nifty spring loaded planet arrangemnt
[00:54:43] <Valen> but the heat shrinking one is really simple and neat looking ;->
[00:55:00] <andypugh> I can check the part catalogues at work tomorrow. Perhaps even get you a price and part number.
[00:55:16] <Valen> on the supercharger?
[00:55:20] <andypugh> Aye
[00:55:29] <Valen> I was more interested in how it worked
[00:55:35] <Valen> like a photo or diagram
[00:56:10] <andypugh> Just a standard epicyclic, but friction drive and with a very small sun
[00:57:08] <MattyMatt> 10 turn pots are similar
[00:57:14] <andypugh> Basically three perfectly normal ball bearings (not to be confused with bearing balls)
[00:57:20] <Valen> yeah
[00:57:42] <andypugh> With a spindle wedged between them, and a springy ring round the outside
[00:58:49] <andypugh> If I was making one, I would have the bearings on flexure arms machined out of the backplate.
[00:58:51] <Valen> I presume with the grinding you need to measure the actual part to know when your done right? because the stone will change size as you use it?
[00:59:17] <andypugh> Less than you might think. But yes.
[00:59:28] <pfred1> endmills change size as you use them too :)
[00:59:41] <pfred1> but it does take a while
[00:59:45] <andypugh> Consider paying someone to make one part for you.
[00:59:49] <Valen> yeah but like you said you dont use an end mill for .0000000x mm work ;->
[01:00:06] <Valen> We are thinking that, If we can find a way to do it ourselves it would be prefered though
[01:00:12] <pfred1> andypugh places are nuts for what they charge for jobs
[01:00:24] <pfred1> part like that they'd probably soak him $1,000
[01:00:26] <andypugh> ie make all that you can, as well as you can, then measure to see what you need, and pay someone for the last part.
[01:00:48] <pfred1> yeah maybe one operation would be a lot cheaper
[01:00:57] <pfred1> like just the final grind
[01:01:03] <Valen> I think it'd be too hard for somebody to grind it to get the stuff back on center
[01:01:04] <andypugh> Indeed.
[01:01:18] <pfred1> don't worry they'll do it
[01:01:26] <Valen> and the rest of the machining is pretty simple really
[01:01:44] <pfred1> you just have to be very clear at the beginning
[01:01:49] <pfred1> what has to be what
[01:02:07] <andypugh> In fact, if you pay for the air fare to come and give me the slap you mentioned, I will let you use my dad's universal grinding machine
[01:02:08] <Valen> The other thing is the maths for the force is only a best guess kinda thing
[01:02:13] <Valen> lol
[01:02:29] <Valen> I'll get the missus to deliver the slap
[01:03:05] <Valen> (thats not giving you the easy way out btw lol, somebody tried to mug her at a train station a few weeks ago, she broke their face on a wall)
[01:03:23] <Valen> and she has been pestering me to take her overseas
[01:03:45] <pfred1> Valen what for?
[01:04:14] <Valen> not for any reason that I can decern, just wants to do different stuff
[01:04:24] <pfred1> pfft
[01:04:30] <pfred1> the worlds the same all over
[01:04:44] <pfred1> unless they have a specific reason why bother?
[01:04:59] <pfred1> honestly now you have nicer weather than we do
[01:05:16] <andypugh> Perhaps she wants to see some old stuff?
[01:05:24] <pfred1> then go to Egypt
[01:05:34] <pfred1> even europe
[01:05:53] <pfred1> oldest thing I've ever seen here is the fort in St. Augistine
[01:05:57] <andypugh> China is closer.
[01:06:05] <pfred1> they got old crap too
[01:06:07] <andypugh> How old?
[01:06:37] <andypugh> (The fort, I meant)
[01:07:24] <pfred1> now I'm wondering which one I saw!
[01:07:28] <pfred1> there seems to be a few
[01:07:41] <Valen> http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs172.snc1/6451_136264727160_588797160_2813458_5153115_n.jpg
[01:07:47] <Valen> now that is different
[01:07:53] <pfred1> anyhow its not that old really
[01:07:59] <pfred1> maybe the 1600s
[01:08:04] <andypugh> Old website (written in 1998) about my parent's house, (built around 1470)
[01:08:07] <andypugh> http://www.bodgesoc.org/slaithwaite.html
[01:08:46] <pfred1> andypugh quite the fixxer upper
[01:08:54] <andypugh> Aye.
[01:09:20] <andypugh> Finished now, there is a link to the not-quite finished pics
[01:09:22] <Valen> The house I used to live in was 1850 or so
[01:10:07] <andypugh> About the apogee of house building, 1850. It's been downhill for quality since
[01:10:15] <pfred1> Valen know what is cool to see in the US?
[01:10:37] <MattyMatt> a shuttle launch?
[01:10:38] <pfred1> it is sort of like viewing ancient history
[01:10:52] <pfred1> going out to the cape anytime to see the old launch pads
[01:10:57] <Valen> I would like to see a shuttle launch before they all go away
[01:11:09] <Valen> I've been out to woomera where they have launched stuff to space
[01:11:12] <pfred1> when yo uare there checking them out they look like they're as old as the pyramids
[01:11:22] <pfred1> they just got this historical look to them
[01:11:22] <MattyMatt> ares looks pretty good spectacle too
[01:11:26] <Valen> Did a (rather smaller) launch of our own
[01:11:44] <pfred1> they'd use a pad once and completely abandon it
[01:11:50] <pfred1> so its sort of neat
[01:11:56] <Valen> I think the weird thing with woomera is there are all these launch pads but they are in the middle of nowhere
[01:12:04] <Valen> and you cant see one from the other
[01:12:11] <Valen> (like its a half hour or more drive)
[01:12:21] <Valen> at 110km/h on a dirt road
[01:12:41] <pfred1> Valen a short diveway for you guys
[01:13:34] <pfred1> andypugh this place you got is positively medieval!
[01:14:05] <andypugh> Ah, something else you might like, Valen. A you mentioned Woomera. http://homepage.mac.com/sjbradshaw/baxterium/firstmoon.html
[01:14:22] <andypugh> pfred1: Indeed, quite literally
[01:14:37] <pfred1> andypugh the house that time forgot!
[01:15:07] <pfred1> Valen cape canaveral is pretty cool though I figured you'd be into it
[01:15:12] <andypugh> The whole of the UK is full of houses about that old.
[01:15:22] <pfred1> we used to watch the shuttle go up from my aunts house
[01:15:49] <pfred1> andypugh we tear stuff down after 20 years and slap up McMansions :)
[01:16:16] <andypugh> So would we, if we could afford to.
[01:16:21] <pfred1> where I'm at now we don't even tear them down just walk away
[01:16:40] <pfred1> you should see all the abandoned houses around here
[01:17:27] <pfred1> andypugh nice post and beam construction
[01:18:11] <andypugh> It's technically a Cruck in the main hall
[01:18:36] <pfred1> andypugh place don't strike me as the best insulated
[01:18:52] <pfred1> andypugh what you think your R value is?
[01:19:08] <andypugh> the walls are 3.5' thick. We have put 3" of foam in the roof. It's not all that bad.
[01:19:12] <pfred1> stone is rotten insulator
[01:19:29] <pfred1> takes like 8 feet of it to equal 8" of fiberglass
[01:19:57] <Guest943> ok, I just finished checking the manual on the current motion card and it says that it uses the linear scale for the P,I terms and the motor encoder for the D term. This should be not to hard to setup with emc?
[01:20:32] <andypugh> No, probably not. But is sounds like a horrible kludge
[01:20:42] <pfred1> Guest943 easy for you to say
[01:22:08] <pfred1> me I'm still wrestling with the decision do I want limit switches?
[01:22:19] <pfred1> or would they make it too complicated
[01:22:19] <andypugh> pfred1: So 4' of stone is 4" of fibreglass, which is more than most have.
[01:22:48] <andypugh> The walls are mortared with clay, so that might act as a thermal break too.
[01:22:51] <Guest943> so would I just set one pid in hal with a P,I term and D = 0 and then another with P,I = 0 and a D term then add them together?
[01:22:55] <pfred1> andypugh ah about even lots go for the foamboard on the outside now as well as in he walls
[01:24:07] <Valen> pfred1 yes you do want limit switches ;->
[01:24:29] <Valen> we are running ours now without and we hit the stops (mechanical) with depressing regularity
[01:24:35] <Valen> and scaryness
[01:24:59] <pfred1> you can set it in the software
[01:25:03] <pfred1> don't go beyond this far
[01:25:13] <Valen> only if you have absolute encoders
[01:25:36] <pfred1> oh it doesn't do it by count? like the machine doesn't know where it is?
[01:25:46] <pfred1> I thought all of that was definable?
[01:25:52] <Valen> with normal scales its too easy to zero a part on the table and not realise that its going to wind up going past the edge
[01:26:06] <Valen> normal scales just give you an offset
[01:26:30] <Valen> but you can zero the machine at any point and it just assumes thats zero
[01:26:46] <Valen> If you have home switches you could probably come closer with some mojo I think
[01:27:01] <Valen> (we dont have home switches either as yet)
[01:27:03] <pfred1> andypugh your house looks like a hobbits house ;)
[01:27:40] <MattyMatt> I want absolute positioning. rotary encoder and gray code to count turns
[01:27:57] <Valen> rotary encoders cant give absolute positioning
[01:28:17] <Valen> they can tell you where you are in the rotation at any point
[01:28:28] <Valen> but you cant know where the machine is along the axis though
[01:28:54] <pfred1> why are all of these spiders around?
[01:30:13] <andypugh> Nah, there is one locally that is lots more hobbity. http://www.flickr.com/photos/40871414@N02/3767793871/
[01:31:13] <pfred1> andypugh I came close to getting flooded out a week ago since then I want to go up!
[01:31:26] <andypugh> Holmfirth is UP
[01:31:36] <pfred1> freaking sucked i had to get everything up off the garage floor
[01:31:58] <pfred1> I still haven't put stuff back on the floor yet
[01:34:16] <pfred1> andypugh http://img690.imageshack.us/i/flood5.jpg/
[01:34:39] <pfred1> another inch and I'd have been hosed!
[01:35:12] <andypugh> That house of my parent's is never going to flood, it is on a hill at 800ft, 350ft above river level.
[01:35:45] <pfred1> andypugh makes me out of breath just thinking about it
[01:36:04] <pfred1> andypugh it is very flat where I am
[01:36:11] <pfred1> I mean flat
[01:36:21] <andypugh> The hill makes the ascent in 0.4 miles. It's quite a pull.
[01:36:29] <MattyMatt> flat enough for bicycles. the way I like it
[01:36:39] <pfred1> MattyMatt yes
[01:36:47] <pfred1> we're very bicycle friendly
[01:36:57] <pfred1> * pfred1 has two Treks ...
[01:37:13] <MattyMatt> * MattyMatt had 26 clunkers
[01:37:29] <pfred1> I used to live in hills
[01:37:47] <MattyMatt> in 2 years. that's a lot even in holland but I had small repair shop & students in the squat
[01:37:49] <pfred1> now I'm living 40 feet above sea level if I'm lucky!
[01:38:09] <andypugh> www.bikehike.co.uk/mapview.php?id=26343
[01:39:09] <pfred1> andypugh it looks Weirs around you :)
[01:40:03] <andypugh> If you go to satellite, and zoom right in, you can see the bend that the 40 ton Low-Loader following a satnav demolished before giving up. That involved driving the cab round the bend and the trailer through the wall, and over the 10' vertiical drop....
[01:40:06] <pfred1> hmm I wonder if I can find a topographical map of by me?
[01:40:12] <pfred1> it'd be mighty boring
[01:40:18] <andypugh> That same site will work
[01:41:40] <pfred1> ah, I live in the US
[01:41:49] <pfred1> I don't know my UK postal code!
[01:42:01] <pfred1> will mmy zipcode work?
[01:42:12] <andypugh> Probably
[01:42:20] <andypugh> Or zoom out and in again
[01:42:33] <pfred1> saya postcode not found
[01:42:58] <andypugh> Hmm, can we convert the google topo data to G-Code to machine a new Earth from solid?
[01:44:05] <Valen> andypugh hope you had a good damp course ;->
[01:44:14] <pfred1> dang this state is backwards
[01:44:19] <pfred1> Sorry, no Maps on Demand products are available
[01:44:21] <pfred1> for Delaware at this time.
[01:44:27] <Valen> you can download the SRTM raw data files to make 15 meter topo maps
[01:44:48] <andypugh> Pfred1: Google for Google Pedomoter
[01:45:07] <andypugh> Then try it again spelled correctly
[01:45:13] <pfred1> I did
[01:45:33] <Valen> SRTM is what google earth is largley based on I believe for its topo information and they come as flat text files
[01:45:37] <pfred1> pfft we not even on this
[01:45:44] <MattyMatt> you need to exagerate height to feel the hymalayas. earth is flat
[01:45:51] <pfred1> a running joke is where i live is called Dela Where?
[01:46:02] <pfred1> like no one even knows we're out here
[01:46:08] <andypugh> MattyMatt: I think you mean smooth :-)
[01:46:39] <MattyMatt> that too
[01:46:44] <MattyMatt> >:)
[01:46:50] <andypugh> I confess I could not find Delaware on a map. Sorry. I know you are one of the little ones on the top right.
[01:47:06] <andypugh> And I have been there
[01:48:09] <pfred1> this is my house
[01:48:12] <pfred1> http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.689699,-75.275536&spn=0.00096,0.001109&t=h&z=20
[01:48:31] <pfred1> and around here it is flat!
[01:49:27] <Valen> http://www2.vapourforge.com/woomera-trip/index.html
[01:49:31] <Valen> you want flat?
[01:49:35] <Valen> thats got flat
[01:49:43] <andypugh> pfred: Swap you? Not my parent's house, but mine. No flood risk....
[01:50:16] <pfred1> Valen we're that flat cept we gt trees
[01:50:27] <andypugh> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=ss13+1rt&sll=38.689699,-75.275536&sspn=0.003245,0.004275&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Basildon,+Essex+SS13+1RT,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.582607,0.504701&spn=0.002583,0.004275&t=h&z=18
[01:51:39] <Valen> edge of the simpson desert and it pisses down rain for 24 hours before the launch
[01:51:51] <pfred1> andypugh your neighbors across the street have a nice stand of woods
[01:52:26] <andypugh> That's public. They make quite a fuss about that, it's rather old.
[01:52:42] <Valen> you get stuff like this out there
[01:52:43] <Valen> http://www2.vapourforge.com/woomera-trip/1006_0028.html
[01:52:49] <pfred1> andypugh everyone needs a place to go smoke a homerolled I guess :)
[01:53:43] <andypugh> It is quite pleasant, and despite what was said last night, has not suffered a forest fire in the last 500 years :-)
[01:53:58] <pfred1> andypugh something tells me that I'd offend the neighbors when I skinnydipped in your neighborhood
[01:54:34] <Valen> http://maps.google.com/ around there somewhere
[01:54:50] <Valen> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=la9+woomera&sll=54.321507,-2.745357&sspn=0.077292,0.264187&g=la9&ie=UTF8&hq=la9&hnear=Woomera+SA,+Australia&ll=-30.896922,136.490021&spn=0.227433,0.528374&t=h&z=12&iwloc=A rather
[01:55:15] <andypugh> Maybe not, but finding enough water to immerse in would be tricky.
[01:55:27] <pfred1> Valen what'd a bomb go off there?
[01:56:01] <andypugh> Yes. Don't talk about that :-)
[01:56:13] <pfred1> place makes death valley look nice
[01:56:18] <andypugh> (Bit of a sore point)
[01:56:45] <Valen> several actually
[01:56:52] <Valen> some nukes
[01:57:00] <pfred1> what would happen if I hit the Get Direvtions link?
[01:57:20] <pfred1> Get Directions even laughing too hard here
[01:57:52] <Valen> I like all the weird circles and stuff on the ground around there
[01:58:45] <pfred1> yeah I've seen some weird stuff using google maps
[01:59:04] <pfred1> like the lake out my back yard i never knew it was there til I saw it on Google
[01:59:10] <andypugh> Valen: Did you at least bookmark that SF story?
[02:00:16] <pfred1> Valen looks like a great place to ride a quad to me
[02:00:20] <Valen> reading it
[02:02:17] <andypugh> Valen: I like it, but it was co-written by a friend. Intersting job he had, he was a Wing Commander in the RAF, but had onlt 5 flying things in his wing, and none had pilots
[02:03:32] <andypugh> In fact, they were all continually plumetting to earth, but missing.
[02:51:27] <Jymmm> archivist: hey, does a 32bit mysql install can handle a 10^42 int?
[02:56:28] <Valen> store it as a decimal?
[02:56:49] <Jymmm> too many fp issues
[03:54:42] <MattyMatt> hex string
[03:55:51] <MattyMatt> or decimal, if you're a human
[04:55:05] <coldelectrons> pfred1: I'd be interested in seeing your BOB
[04:57:20] <pfred1> coldelectrons ok
[04:57:42] <pfred1> coldelectrons http://img200.imageshack.us/i/bobsch.png/
[04:57:49] <coldelectrons> drop my teeth, I thought I was the only one who stayed up this late
[04:57:51] <pfred1> its just one channel
[04:58:18] <pfred1> I mean you'd have to rinse and repeat for every signal
[04:59:09] <pfred1> but I hooked that up to my motor driver and ran my clock signal through it and it worked
[04:59:16] <coldelectrons> I'm trying to remember - a '245 is a bidirectional latch, right?
[04:59:37] <coldelectrons> uh, transparent latch?
[05:00:18] <pfred1> it seems a popular driver the ACT
[05:00:32] <pfred1> though i may not use one myself
[05:00:45] <pfred1> I don't need the current it delivers
[05:00:45] <ds3> the 245 is transparent
[05:00:51] <ds3> 244 is registered, IIRC
[05:01:05] <coldelectrons> I'm breadboarding something myself, right now
[05:01:15] <pfred1> coldelectrons yeah?
[05:02:08] <coldelectrons> Yeah. I'm hooking up some LS7266R1 counters to an Arduino Mega, as well as parport EPP communications
[05:02:27] <pfred1> I think I should fool around with my opto a bit ore i scoped it a little and it has rounded shoulders in the trace I'd like to shape them up some more if I can
[05:03:27] <pfred1> though I ran after the opto a 74LS14 and it squared thing up nicely for me
[05:04:01] <pfred1> coldelectrons what does that do?
[05:05:08] <pfred1> I'm reading about people trying to use an Allegro Bipolar Stepper Driver A3986 on CNCZone they're making me feel better
[05:05:20] <coldelectrons> Well, I'm hoping to make a small servo setup
[05:05:27] <pfred1> ah
[05:05:40] <pfred1> yeah after messing with steppers I can see the limitations
[05:06:07] <coldelectrons> the Arduino Mega uses the atmega1280 - a nice chunk of I/O
[05:06:45] <coldelectrons> http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardMega
[05:07:22] <coldelectrons> It's what I have, and I'm not yet prepared to dive into FPGAs
[05:07:46] <pfred1> yes that is a bit too advanced for me
[05:07:56] <coldelectrons> Maybe in a year, if I haven't sold all my tools for food
[05:08:47] <pfred1> I'm not sure there are too many people right now buying tools
[05:09:34] <coldelectrons> Then I'll just have to hunt some of the several dozens of deer that prance around my shop
[05:09:35] <pfred1> threading sucks on CNCZ0ne
[05:10:00] <coldelectrons> Threading, machining, or threading, topics?
[05:10:01] <pfred1> usenet is better formatted
[05:10:18] <coldelectrons> Or orphan, frequently?
[05:10:31] <pfred1> just I'm on http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=197996#poststop
[05:10:46] <pfred1> I mean its OK for a small thread but once you have a few its horrible!
[05:11:18] <coldelectrons> Truth be told, I stop paying any attention to cnczone a long time ago
[05:11:38] <pfred1> ah it is a resource
[05:12:10] <pfred1> but the format is miserable I guess they like the page reloads makes them money
[05:13:36] <coldelectrons> I also adblocker the fsck out of everything
[05:17:29] <pfred1> my flash is broken so that helps :)
[05:18:19] <coldelectrons> flash in linux?
[05:18:26] <pfred1> yes
[05:19:01] <coldelectrons> It always seems to be broken for the important things, but always works for the advertisements
[05:19:30] <pfred1> I can't install 10 my glibc is too old
[05:19:56] <coldelectrons> what distro? I'm Debian/testing
[05:20:08] <pfred1> suse 8.2 I think
[05:20:32] <coldelectrons> My current problem is the ATI moved my model video card to legacy :(
[05:20:45] <coldelectrons> No more binary drivers
[05:20:50] <pfred1> I just need a new PC maybe next year?
[05:21:05] <coldelectrons> Maybe
[05:21:11] <pfred1> this ones from 2002
[05:21:32] <coldelectrons> Mine is slightly newer
[05:21:51] <coldelectrons> I'm glad I invested in 8GB of RAM
[05:22:04] <pfred1> heh I don't even have 1 GB
[05:22:34] <pfred1> 512MB
[05:23:23] <coldelectrons> That's about the minimum I'd use for EMC
[05:23:37] <pfred1> I'm not going to run EMc on this system
[05:24:18] <pfred1> this system going to the grave with OS that is on it
[05:24:20] <coldelectrons> What kind of RAM, and how many slots do you have? I may have some extra sticks here.
[05:24:55] <pfred1> thanks thats OK it works now I don' expect much from it
[05:25:18] <pfred1> honestly I'm amazed this computer works at all
[05:25:39] <pfred1> I try not to think about it very much
[05:25:58] <coldelectrons> Keep it clean, keep the thermal grease fresh - you wouldn't believe how long they last
[05:26:32] <pfred1> well this system is cobbled together from scrap bin parts after my last one blew up
[05:26:43] <pfred1> just the HDDs are from my old system
[05:27:03] <pfred1> and one of those is half dead
[05:27:04] <coldelectrons> If I was still willing to mess with stuff with ISA, I have a K6-2 and others here
[05:27:31] <coldelectrons> Even an old Gateway with a 440BX motherboard :)
[05:27:36] <pfred1> yeah i have a trailer full of junk PCs I picked up at the dumps
[05:28:07] <coldelectrons> I try not to do that anymore - not enough room
[05:28:18] <pfred1> why you think EMC needs so much RAM?
[05:28:34] <coldelectrons> It's not really EMC, it's AXIS
[05:28:43] <pfred1> I men theres no way I'm going to run gnome
[05:28:52] <pfred1> I hate gnome
[05:29:08] <pfred1> I'll use a really light WM like blackbox
[05:29:20] <coldelectrons> it's the OpenGL display, I think - needs large arrays
[05:29:32] <coldelectrons> Fluxbox is good
[05:29:54] <coldelectrons> On a modern computer, there is nothing wrong with Gnome
[05:30:04] <pfred1> I just don't like it
[05:30:18] <pfred1> but it is a resource pig to boot
[05:30:39] <pfred1> I wouldn't run gnome if it was the last WM on the planet I'd go naked
[05:30:49] <pfred1> run weave
[05:30:54] <coldelectrons> After fighting for several years to keep my Fluxbox setup - um, 'easier' to use
[05:31:08] <coldelectrons> I think I can afford to use Gnome
[05:31:17] <pfred1> well I just don't like it
[05:31:34] <coldelectrons> Yeah, and I don't like Mac
[05:31:43] <coldelectrons> but it exists, and people use it
[05:31:49] <pfred1> sure
[05:32:04] <pfred1> don't mean you have to use it though
[05:32:15] <coldelectrons> and I also wouldn't use a Mac if it was the last computer on the planet
[05:32:41] <pfred1> yeah computers aren't that hard to build
[05:32:54] <coldelectrons> I've tried to admin my Mom's Mac
[05:32:57] <coldelectrons> <shudders>
[05:33:08] <coldelectrons> It's weird in there, man!
[05:33:09] <pfred1> I don't know the first thing about them
[05:33:19] <pfred1> except that somehow Steve Jobs is involved
[05:33:29] <pfred1> so ...
[05:33:52] <coldelectrons> It's like a BSD derivative
[05:33:52] <pfred1> Bill Gates is a saint next to Steve Jobs!
[05:34:14] <coldelectrons> Uh...no.
[05:34:53] <coldelectrons> Evil is evil. If you're choosing shades of black, you're on the wrong path
[05:35:23] <pfred1> oh I wouldn't want to choose either just trying to put them on a scale
[05:36:22] <pfred1> but yeah if every computer on the planet blew up tomorrow I'd get by OK
[05:36:46] <pfred1> what I'm saying is I really don't *need* a computer but they are nice to have around
[05:36:47] <coldelectrons> I'd find something else to do, but I don't know if I'd call it OK
[05:37:04] <coldelectrons> It would be too much like amputation
[05:37:12] <pfred1> most of my life there was no such thing as a PC
[05:37:19] <pfred1> and we didn't miss them then
[05:38:23] <coldelectrons> As a form of technology, they have replaced to many other things, and the old way of doing things has all but been forgotten
[05:38:34] <pfred1> I was offline for like 3 years just a little while ago
[05:38:48] <coldelectrons> That's fine if you choose it
[05:38:50] <pfred1> I was too busy doing other things
[05:39:01] <pfred1> I just didn't have time to set it up
[05:39:21] <coldelectrons> Myself, I'm about 10 years now without TV
[05:39:37] <pfred1> I like TV
[05:39:48] <coldelectrons> I can't stand TV
[05:39:51] <pfred1> for when my brain is tired and I want to just veg out
[05:40:05] <pfred1> it is sort of like a lava lamp to me
[05:40:23] <coldelectrons> I veg out with linux
[05:40:35] <pfred1> nah I have to do things there
[05:40:43] <coldelectrons> there's always something new to learn about it
[05:40:44] <pfred1> move mice hit keys
[05:41:11] <pfred1> I've been forgetting everything myself
[05:41:35] <pfred1> system is all setup nothing really to do with it but use it
[05:42:20] <coldelectrons> Not for me - I upgrade, I run a server, I try different software packages
[05:42:25] <pfred1> I tried to figure out yesterday how to get my webserver through the cable router
[05:42:27] <coldelectrons> I also code a bit
[05:42:41] <pfred1> but no joy on that front
[05:42:46] <MattyMatt> I got loads more coding done when I was on PAYG dialup
[05:42:48] <coldelectrons> I also hacked my router with OpenWRT :)
[05:44:34] <coldelectrons> We are chatting right now over a Sprint 3G usb modem in an ASUS WL-500gPv2, in a sealed weatherproof box with an antenna, about 600' from my location
[05:45:35] <coldelectrons> I need to add some more scripts to keep track of usage and maybe throttle throughput, but it works WAY better than satellite internet
[05:45:45] <pfred1> yeah well I'm wored into the back of my router butthat took some doing
[05:46:38] <pfred1> you need pretty big holes to pass RJ-45 connectors through foundation block I found
[05:47:16] <coldelectrons> You don't have a RJ-45 crimper?
[05:47:23] <pfred1> nope
[05:47:34] <pfred1> I buy cables with the ends attached
[05:47:40] <coldelectrons> ah
[05:48:09] <coldelectrons> I buy cat5e by the spool :)
[05:48:54] <coldelectrons> Then again, I work as an electrician. I been able to snag old cat5e during renovations
[05:49:14] <pfred1> A federal judge Wednesday denied AT&T's request to pull Verizon's critical commercials from the air, despite the fact that they might be "sneaky" and most TV watchers are "semi-catatonic." [
[05:49:36] <pfred1> yeah baby thats me "semi-catatonic."
[05:49:54] <pfred1> I've done work as an electrician
[05:50:09] <coldelectrons> That's not me - I'm acute
[05:50:33] <coldelectrons> When I watched TV, I'd sit there and detest it
[05:50:41] <coldelectrons> actively
[05:50:47] <pfred1> pick better channels
[05:51:03] <coldelectrons> not much selection here
[05:51:06] <pfred1> I don't mind watching an old movie
[05:51:27] <coldelectrons> Movies are something else, and much better quality
[05:51:45] <MattyMatt> I bought a spool of cat5e and some crimpable connectors. but I got 100m of solid core wire :p
[05:52:00] <coldelectrons> ?
[05:52:21] <MattyMatt> you need stranded for crimping
[05:53:09] <MattyMatt> I'm ready to wire a house up, socket to socket tho :)
[05:53:48] <pfred1> MattyMatt I just ran a wire through my crawlspace and called it a day myself
[06:20:53] <MrSunshine> probe input ... is that just a wire from one pin in the parport, that is shorted to GND ?
[06:21:20] <MattyMatt> I guess so
[06:22:08] <MattyMatt> you might like to pull it up to 5V with a 4.7k resistor, to make positively sure it always reads as high when it's floating
[06:22:38] <MattyMatt> but TTL inputs reliably read as high when floating
[06:23:13] <MattyMatt> generally
[06:23:21] <pfred1> MrSunshine are you talking about HAL?
[06:23:51] <MrSunshine> i want to make a physical tool length probe, and im wondering how to connect it to the parallelport in the computer
[06:23:53] <MrSunshine> =)
[06:24:30] <MrSunshine> MattyMatt, well i think they should have done that on the controller board im using .. as its a port out to use for end switches and probes etc
[06:25:04] <MrSunshine> ffs
[06:25:09] <MattyMatt> and does your machine ground the spindle?
[06:25:10] <MrSunshine> now the store has removed it and with it the datasheet
[06:25:19] <MrSunshine> MattyMatt, dunno? :)
[06:25:28] <MrSunshine> its connected on a seperate power supply
[06:26:44] <MattyMatt> you might have to check inside it, and maybe fit the earth wire yourself
[06:26:55] <MattyMatt> is it 12V spindle?
[06:28:37] <MrSunshine> the spindle is the thing with the milling tool on it right ?
[06:28:43] <MattyMatt> yep
[06:28:53] <MrSunshine> its connected to the wall socket, more then that i dont know :)
[06:29:09] <MattyMatt> it a plastic case?
[06:29:12] <MrSunshine> and as its a garage machine i guess it will have a gnd wire to the wall =)
[06:29:24] <MrSunshine> MattyMatt, whole machine is a seig x1 mill .. metall
[06:29:46] <MattyMatt> ah ok, it's safe to assume the chuck is earthed :)
[06:29:54] <MrSunshine> aye
[06:29:54] <MrSunshine> :)
[06:31:40] <MrSunshine> 4、The definition of limit input:DB9 (1-6) Corresponding to the PC parallel port P13 DB9 (2-7) Coresponding to the parallel port P12 DB9 (3-8)---- P 11 DB9 (4-9)----P10
[06:31:47] <MrSunshine> is what the datasheet says about the input lines
[06:32:07] <MrSunshine> guess i have to go and check with a probe if either say 2 or 7 is connected to GND
[06:32:27] <MrSunshine> so i just short 2 and 7 and i have input on P12
[06:32:29] <MattyMatt> mine too. that's for convenience so you can remove the board easily from the fully wired machine
[06:33:29] <MattyMatt> and so you don't need to tap the DB25 cable
[06:33:49] <MrSunshine> nop, and thats good .. but it doesnt specify how to connect the DB9 connector realy
[06:33:55] <MrSunshine> how to connect switches to it or anything
[06:34:26] <MattyMatt> it's wired straight through, so treat it like a parport input. TTL rules is 4.7k pullup
[06:34:55] <MrSunshine> MattyMatt, if i have to do a pullup myself then that will be hard outside of the port :)
[06:35:07] <MrSunshine> MattyMatt, but is one of the pins GND or is it not? :)
[06:35:17] <MattyMatt> good point, unless that DB9 has 5V
[06:35:33] <MattyMatt> so forget the pullup, they aren't vital
[06:35:52] <pfred1> just how crappy are parallel ports?
[06:36:27] <pfred1> I mean i got this one guy in Yahoo here that claims some parallel ports can't source or sink a ma of current!
[06:36:34] <MattyMatt> they were bad enough until IBM reinterpreted the layout of the DB25 end
[06:36:47] <pfred1> but 1 ma?
[06:37:05] <pfred1> they can' be that lousy
[06:37:23] <MattyMatt> they are inferior ports. the centronics spec (and probably IEEE 1289 or whatever) says 20ma
[06:37:51] <pfred1> I've read elsewhere from 6 to 12 ma
[06:38:11] <MrSunshine> pfred1, generaly dont need much for logic levels :P
[06:38:16] <pfred1> I think this guy must have just blown his parallel port up and thinks they're all that way or something
[06:38:18] <MattyMatt> yeah it's all cmos these days
[06:38:25] <MrSunshine> as its not supposed to source or sink alot of mA why would it be able to ? :)
[06:38:54] <MattyMatt> old printers on a long cable might want the full 20ma
[06:38:55] <pfred1> MrSunshine to drive something
[06:39:10] <MrSunshine> pfred1, like i said.. not supposed to drive someting.. you have to have a buffer to drive something
[06:39:30] <pfred1> MrSunshine you plug in a buffer for your printer?
[06:39:43] <MrSunshine> printer is supposed to have it inside it! :P
[06:40:05] <pfred1> and what do these buffers run on fresh air and sunshine?
[06:40:16] <MrSunshine> ofc!=)
[06:40:20] <MattyMatt> 5V from the printer end :)
[06:40:33] <MattyMatt> the 36pin end has 5V available
[06:41:22] <pfred1> well let me just see what a CMOS chip sucks up
[06:41:33] <pfred1> maybe it is a lot less than I think
[06:41:45] <MrSunshine> when using a tool length probe, i will be putting the probe on the surface that my material will be on right?
[06:41:45] <pfred1> I have one on my breadboard here
[06:41:50] <MrSunshine> to get an absolute zero position
[06:42:07] <MrSunshine> so i probe, then put the piece to be milled there and start milling?:)
[06:42:23] <MattyMatt> you could have it off the side of the table
[06:43:29] <MrSunshine> aye, but then if i change the material rest or holder then that offset would not b emuch use would it? :)
[06:43:35] <MattyMatt> the probe is permanent usually, so keep it away from the actual work area if you can
[06:44:25] <MrSunshine> but then if the material to be milled is moved up 2mm ... what would happend with my offsets then ? :)
[06:44:38] <MattyMatt> all the probe needs to do is tell you the length of the tool compared to the length of other tools, you still need to calculate other offsets
[06:47:36] <MrSunshine> hmm ok
[06:47:46] <MattyMatt> pfred1, when I was a kid I had dreams about breadboards the size of yours :)
[06:48:08] <MrSunshine> but i find it strange, then i will need to have a tool that have a totaly fixed length to put in first, then change to the tool i actualy want to mill with ?
[06:48:22] <MrSunshine> as each time i put in a tool the length will be different anyhow and i do not have home switches
[06:49:21] <MattyMatt> do you have absolute position encoding?
[06:49:58] <MrSunshine> huh ? :)
[06:49:59] <MattyMatt> it'll be hard to find the probe without that or home switches
[06:50:10] <MrSunshine> yeah
[06:50:23] <MrSunshine> thats why i jog it to over a place, then probe using only Z over the plate? :)
[06:50:51] <MattyMatt> and then jog the same distance back? exactly?
[06:51:06] <MrSunshine> MattyMatt, the X, Y position isnt important
[06:51:07] <MrSunshine> the Z is
[06:51:19] <MattyMatt> seems easier to zero the tool length by jogging too
[06:51:29] <MrSunshine> so i can be sure my finnished piece is 10mm if its supposed to be 10mm :)
[06:54:59] <pfred1> MattyMatt I should post pic of my Z-80 computer i made on it once
[06:55:25] <MattyMatt> i think maybe that's the photo I saw
[06:55:42] <MattyMatt> it was rather populated :)
[06:57:03] <pfred1> MattyMatt this? http://img52.imageshack.us/i/p7100104.jpg/
[06:57:50] <pfred1> yeah this damned CMOS chip I can't even get a reading of input draw with it
[06:58:02] <pfred1> not even on 50 uA
[06:59:01] <MattyMatt> 4000 series was "<1ma" iirc, but that was 20y ago
[06:59:35] <pfred1> MattyMatt on 50 uA scale it wasn't even budging the needle
[06:59:41] <pfred1> I mean nothing!
[06:59:54] <pfred1> but it was still working
[07:00:04] <MattyMatt> neat
[07:00:42] <pfred1> a CD4069UBE
[07:00:48] <pfred1> I think its a hex inverter
[07:01:15] <pfred1> so now I
[07:01:27] <pfred1> hinkin just run these off he parallel port to optos
[07:01:46] <pfred1> because i know these can source enough to run an opto
[07:01:57] <pfred1> and they draw nothing
[07:03:26] <pfred1> i tried two different meters a digital on 200 uA and a Simpson 270 on 50 uA scales
[07:03:38] <pfred1> neither batted an eyelash
[07:05:24] <MattyMatt> 10e-5uA typical 0.1uA max
[07:05:35] <MattyMatt> according to datasheet
[07:06:05] <pfred1> yeah i suppose that is what I could have been looking at
[07:06:17] <pfred1> like watching a magician saw a woman in half
[07:06:25] <pfred1> I didn't see nothing!
[07:06:39] <MattyMatt> ah Empirical Engineering wins in the end :)
[07:07:18] <pfred1> I always knew CMOSwere lightweights I just had no idea how light we were really talking about
[07:07:19] <MattyMatt> motto "Succere Videre"
[07:07:47] <pfred1> a gnat langing on the chip would have cracked off more electrons
[07:08:12] <pfred1> yes I am going to have to rethink my BOB here
[07:08:12] <awallin> anyone used a gang-tool lathe? I'm thinking the whole revolver ATC is going to be too complex and gang-tools would be much easier...
[07:08:51] <pfred1> turret lathes are popular
[07:09:25] <pfred1> and I never met anyne with a QCTP that'd ever give it up
[07:10:05] <MattyMatt> * MattyMatt makes a windmill with a dremel on each end
[07:10:49] <MattyMatt> the shelf-slider-man version :)
[07:11:49] <pfred1> MattyMatt so far its looking like my precision slides are going to consist of EMT here :)
[07:12:08] <awallin> probably building ATCs for hobby machines is madness from the start. these things are not used for production anyway...
[07:12:44] <MattyMatt> electromagnetic tension? linear steppers?
[07:12:48] <pfred1> awallin well you have to do something to fill up the time
[07:13:30] <MattyMatt> i thing toolchangers are more vital for hobby machines
[07:13:49] <MattyMatt> if it takes all night to make a part
[07:14:57] <awallin> hm so best of both worlds: many of those QCTPs in a gang-config?
[07:15:31] <pfred1> MattyMatt you'd better put a fire extinguisher on that Dremel if you plan on running it all nite!
[07:15:58] <pfred1> CNC lathe where i used to work a mechanism rotated the tools
[07:16:01] <MattyMatt> yeah temp probe is being considered
[07:16:18] <pfred1> MattyMatt just throw a fan on it and call it a day
[07:16:43] <MattyMatt> one motor per tool is my plan
[07:16:55] <pfred1> multispindle?
[07:17:21] <pfred1> I've seen a couple hobby CNCs that way
[07:17:31] <MattyMatt> maybe later. not immediately
[07:17:39] <awallin> what's an AXA-size tool/lathe ?
[07:17:47] <MattyMatt> I've only got one dremel :)
[07:17:50] <pfred1> yeah I'll be happy if my machine pushes a pen :)
[07:18:00] <MattyMatt> I do have a nice old cast B&D tho
[07:18:46] <pfred1> awallin could be the lathe tool just guessing you know the blank size?
[07:18:56] <MattyMatt> I dropped that tho. I fear I may have done it a mischief
[07:19:04] <pfred1> theres a lot of different tool sizes
[07:19:27] <awallin> I'm building from scratch so I can choose any tool size. I've used 12x12mm at work which seems rigid enough for small parts
[07:19:39] <pfred1> I'd say!
[07:19:55] <pfred1> lots of hobby lathes run tools half that size
[07:20:12] <MattyMatt> I thought most pros did too
[07:20:24] <pfred1> nah 1/2" pretty common
[07:20:40] <pfred1> most common
[07:21:05] <pfred1> then you can get your carbide holders
[07:21:13] <awallin> if you go look at a pro mori-seiki or nakamura it will have 16mm or 25mm =1" holders for sure
[07:21:45] <pfred1> I've seen like tall tools for lathes you know they're narrower side to side
[07:22:11] <pfred1> I've a whole box of 1/2" blanks
[07:22:19] <awallin> HSS?
[07:22:25] <pfred1> yes
[07:23:04] <awallin> mm, I think I'll stick to carbide. What MattyMatt said earlier about taking all night for a part...
[07:23:17] <pfred1> carbide needs huge machine
[07:24:03] <pfred1> small time always better off with HSS
[07:24:23] <awallin> 3000rpm spindle OK?
[07:24:34] <MattyMatt> I am considering QC head for my machine, in anticipation of an auto one later
[07:24:45] <pfred1> awallin what material you working?
[07:25:10] <awallin> MattyMatt: I might have parts for a revolver soon... which I'm not sure if I will use or try to sell
[07:25:24] <awallin> pfred1: mostly alu and brass
[07:26:07] <pfred1> aluminum is 400 SFPM I believe
[07:26:13] <pfred1> so ...
[07:26:29] <pfred1> at 3000 RPM you could work a piece what diameter?
[07:26:41] <MattyMatt> oh and last night, I started drawing how I'd replace my X&Z with a 3 joint puma style arm
[07:26:43] <pfred1> I'm going to guess 1" let me check
[07:27:14] <MattyMatt> rene descartes was a drunken fart "I drink therefore I am"
[07:28:45] <MattyMatt> one more joint in the wrist, and that would be 5 axis
[07:29:28] <pfred1> awallin yes 3000 looks like you could do 1/2" diameter stock about
[07:30:24] <awallin> I think the spindle will turn more than 3000 but it will loose some torque. above 3000 should probably change to ER-collet chuck for holding the work etc...
[07:30:55] <pfred1> awallin I mean how small of work are you planning on doing?
[07:31:18] <awallin> some parts may be as small as 5mm
[07:31:33] <pfred1> whats that like 1/4 of an inch?
[07:31:54] <awallin> roughly yes I guess
[07:32:04] <MattyMatt> bit smaller
[07:32:25] <pfred1> I mean you could work it at 3000 RPM but it won't be optimal
[07:32:48] <pfred1> like surface finish and material removal it'll work just slower than it could be
[07:33:18] <pfred1> awallin you're aware that it is all about surface speed right?
[07:33:45] <awallin> yes, trying to learn all these lathe things now... been milling for a while though
[07:33:47] <pfred1> lathes are like mills backwards you take diameter of the work as opposed to bit diameter
[07:34:00] <pfred1> but it is still just surface speed
[07:34:21] <pfred1> the tool over the work
[07:34:40] <pfred1> and depending on what material dictates running speed
[07:34:59] <pfred1> brass I donno offhand I'd imagine its like 300 SFPM or so
[07:35:07] <pfred1> actually i think it varies as to type
[07:35:15] <pfred1> yellow red etc
[07:35:28] <pfred1> aluminum is pretty consistant
[07:35:53] <awallin> it's a long build, probably won't be making chips this year... so I have time to read up, and do some CAM programming etc
[07:36:16] <pfred1> ah aluminum is only 300
[07:36:22] <pfred1> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speeds_and_feeds
[07:36:42] <pfred1> Brass 600+ Use Max Spindle Speed Available on Machine
[07:36:49] <pfred1> let er rip!
[07:37:11] <pfred1> ah its simple
[07:37:20] <awallin> and how are SFMs different for HSS and carbide?
[07:37:25] <pfred1> PI X DIA X RPM / 12 = SFPM
[07:37:44] <toastydeath> carbide is far more heat resistant than hss, and can thus spin far, far faster
[07:37:44] <pfred1> carbide is way faster than HSS
[07:37:58] <pfred1> like in steel HSS is 100 SFPM and carbide is 400 SFPM
[07:38:14] <toastydeath> i cut steel at 300 sfm with hss
[07:38:14] <pfred1> you don't want ot do carbide
[07:38:18] <toastydeath> and 1000-1500 with carbide
[07:38:37] <pfred1> toastydeath well the rest of the world uses differnt speeds
[07:38:42] <toastydeath> pfred1: no, they don't
[07:38:50] <pfred1> toastydeath http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speeds_and_feeds
[07:38:56] <toastydeath> I'm a machinist.
[07:39:17] <pfred1> toastydeath I've seen people do crap wrong for 30+ years you want a medal?
[07:39:31] <toastydeath> no, but I'd like you to stop quoting things that are wrong.
[07:39:47] <pfred1> toastydeath the whole world is 100 400
[07:39:52] <toastydeath> no, it isn't
[07:40:12] <toastydeath> i have no idea where you are getting that idea from, but it isn't correct.
[07:40:12] <pfred1> whatever you're right if that makes you happy
[07:40:19] <toastydeath> 100/400 is a popular hobbyist idea
[07:40:27] <pfred1> every machining book I've ever read
[07:40:40] <pfred1> and cutting steel too
[07:40:57] <awallin> hmh, I have to teach something about op-amps and AD-converters today, any tips :) ?
[07:40:57] <pfred1> my machine is very finicky about it
[07:41:49] <pfred1> toastydeath maybe your HSS is cobalt?
[07:41:52] <toastydeath> pfred1: no
[07:42:12] <pfred1> well if I tried to run at that it wouldn't work
[07:42:45] <pfred1> heck top speed on my mill is only 2500
[07:42:55] <pfred1> I'd never have to change speed!
[07:43:11] <toastydeath> I usually don't have to, that's correct.
[07:43:28] <pfred1> toastydeath they put the other 11 speeds on the machine just for laughs right?
[07:43:50] <toastydeath> for aluminum? yeah, pretty much.
[07:44:01] <pfred1> oh I'm talking about cutting steel
[07:44:16] <pfred1> 100/400 is for steel
[07:44:29] <toastydeath> steel, i still go with ~300 sfm, so whatever cutter diameter I'm using, i obviously set it accordingly
[07:44:34] <pfred1> aluminum do what you want break out the router
[07:44:45] <pfred1> I cut aluminum with my tablesaw
[07:44:53] <toastydeath> if I've got a 5" facemill, I'm not going to be using 2500 rpm.
[07:45:31] <toastydeath> drills, as well, since there's nowhere for the chips to go.
[07:46:05] <MattyMatt> awallin, LM389 iirc is the best for simple A/D. thassa all I remember
[07:46:10] <pfred1> /sub toastydeath SpeedyGonzales
[07:46:41] <pfred1> awallin JRCs make the best distortion boxes!
[07:47:22] <MattyMatt> I made a 2 bit genlock back in the day. had to replace the xtal on the machine with an LC to sync it
[07:48:46] <MattyMatt> that was sick, and I don't mean in a good way
[07:49:27] <pfred1> awallin well if toastydeath is to be believed you'd better get a much faster spindle
[07:49:57] <pfred1> for really small work 3,000 might be a bit slow
[07:50:26] <toastydeath> on the converse it doesn't really matter how fast your spindle goes if you're all right with plodding along
[07:50:49] <toastydeath> you can, and should probably try at some point, machining with a 1/8th endmill at 500 rpm
[07:50:51] <pfred1> going the right speed i get better finishes
[07:50:54] <toastydeath> it works just fine, it's slow
[07:51:00] <pfred1> bu sandaper could fix that I suppose
[07:51:16] <MattyMatt> the old tables would have been compiled when labour was cheaper
[07:52:04] <MattyMatt> but sharpening a tool is mostly labour too, so probably irrelevant
[07:52:07] <pfred1> I've cut a lot of steel and 100 sfm works the best for me I've tried faster and slower
[07:52:37] <pfred1> and I've learned I'm better off at 100
[07:53:03] <MattyMatt> it could depend on the individual machine
[07:53:09] <pfred1> sure
[07:53:14] <pfred1> no could about it
[07:53:15] <MattyMatt> vibrations etc
[07:53:28] <pfred1> better machines can go faster
[07:53:39] <pfred1> thats part of what makes them better
[07:54:03] <pfred1> but a crappy machine will really show you what is right and what is wrong :)
[07:54:47] <pfred1> yes that is why hobbiests can't really run carbide tooling their machines aren't up to it
[07:55:05] <MattyMatt> my crappy spindle does 36krpm. if you want to argue, please snap my tool
[07:56:10] <MattyMatt> I will have a go carving steel, but I expect flying bits
[07:56:36] <pfred1> better off grinding it
[07:57:15] <pfred1> the problem with steel is chatter I mean unless you have arms like I beams
[07:57:42] <pfred1> MattyMatt is there a big red S on your chest?
[07:57:48] <toastydeath> find a carbide grade for high speed machining and use shallow depths of cut
[07:57:51] <MattyMatt> yeah, and the chatter will rattle the whole machine
[07:58:30] <MattyMatt> I can just tell steel won't mill on mine, but I gots to try one day, once the guards are in place
[07:58:55] <pfred1> all that'll happen is the cutter will chip
[07:59:07] <pfred1> and you'll be ou the cutter
[08:00:19] <MattyMatt> I'll mill the patterns for the cast iron mk2. plan A is best
[08:00:57] <pfred1> I just got a nice expansion tank i plan on making a cupola furnace out of
[08:01:20] <pfred1> aluminum you can do next to the dogs on the grill
[08:02:22] <MattyMatt> a blower driven one looks good for starting. you can just about do iron in them
[08:02:27] <pfred1> MattyMatt you're really going to cast metal?
[08:02:44] <MattyMatt> yep
[08:02:47] <pfred1> nah you need coke and lime for iron
[08:03:06] <pfred1> I saw this one guy on the net had the best way to do casting
[08:03:13] <MattyMatt> in a cupola maybe, but I've seen it done with waste oil
[08:03:33] <pfred1> you make foam patterns then dip them in thinned out plaster
[08:03:56] <pfred1> thn you can put that into dry sand
[08:04:14] <MattyMatt> mm, got beach sand for free
[08:04:21] <pfred1> no messing around with sand mixxes and the finishes he was getting was great
[08:04:55] <MattyMatt> that's like hald way between sandcasting and investment
[08:04:59] <pfred1> I seen a lot of backyard casting and this guy was doing just about the best
[08:05:12] <pfred1> unless you want to go the petrobond route
[08:05:25] <pfred1> me I've done ingots never molds
[08:05:37] <pfred1> but just melting aluminum is a snap
[08:05:47] <pfred1> nothing to it realy
[08:06:04] <MattyMatt> petrobond is just sand well mixed with a bit of oil
[08:06:25] <pfred1> MattyMatt and a high $
[08:06:59] <pfred1> people have a lot of problems getting homemade greensand mixes right
[08:07:02] <MattyMatt> bugger taht, I'll mix my own
[08:07:16] <pfred1> yeah use 2 stroke oil
[08:07:30] <pfred1> works best
[08:07:38] <MattyMatt> problems = experience. I can always remelt my mistakes :)
[08:07:50] <pfred1> but seriously don't waste time with sand mixes do the plaster dip
[08:08:10] <MattyMatt> it sounds neater. plain styrofoam?
[08:08:16] <pfred1> yeah
[08:08:28] <pfred1> then thin out wall plaster and dip it a few times
[08:08:49] <pfred1> burn out the foam if you want throw it in a bucket of dry sand for support
[08:09:01] <pfred1> and pour away
[08:09:17] <pfred1> then when metal sets some the guy would dump it out and hit it with a garden hose
[08:09:26] <pfred1> the thermal shock would break off the plaster
[08:09:32] <MattyMatt> I'll try milling giant blocks of wax too, for trad investment
[08:10:44] <MattyMatt> that's almost as good as diecasting
[08:11:32] <pfred1> maybe if you spin it
[08:11:33] <MattyMatt> I suspect the pressure in a die gives better microcrystals tho
[08:11:48] <pfred1> air bubbles is what is bad
[08:11:56] <MattyMatt> for tiny things yeah
[08:12:04] <pfred1> nope anything
[08:12:13] <MattyMatt> I might try vacuum
[08:12:23] <pfred1> you'd be suprised how tricky it is to get a complete fill
[08:12:32] <pfred1> nah you have to add head pressure
[08:13:14] <pfred1> because as the metal cools it shrinks so you need to have more to feed it anyways
[08:13:41] <pfred1> great casters know how to figure out risers to feed
[08:13:45] <MattyMatt> yeah, that's what the risers are for, but
[08:13:57] <MattyMatt> I gots to learn
[08:14:14] <pfred1> well beyond the risers you need head pressure to get a complete fill and it well pressurizes the mold
[08:14:18] <MattyMatt> all I know about molten metal is soldering, and a bit of stick welding
[08:14:37] <pfred1> yeah a whole crucible of the stuff still spooks me a little
[08:15:17] <pfred1> I made my crucible out of an old oxidizer tank
[08:15:30] <MattyMatt> I'd have trouble squeezing a graphite crucible in tongs. I want lifting lugs if possible
[08:15:40] <pfred1> drilled and tapped holes on the sides for ear lugs
[08:15:57] <pfred1> I use steel crucible good enough
[08:16:05] <MattyMatt> for alu
[08:16:23] <pfred1> could clay line it for iron
[08:16:32] <MattyMatt> that's really what the mk2 will use :) cast iron will be mk7
[08:16:46] <pfred1> yeah do a lot of aluminum
[08:17:07] <pfred1> thats the beauty of a cupola no crucible
[08:17:12] <pfred1> just tap it
[08:17:32] <pfred1> that and of course it works ;0
[08:18:06] <MattyMatt> refractory is expensive, and cupolas are tough on it
[08:18:10] <pfred1> MattyMatt you ever see my blast furnace?
[08:18:19] <MattyMatt> nope
[08:19:24] <pfred1> MattyMatt http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/6926185/hr/805358075/name/Blast_F.jpg
[08:20:10] <MattyMatt> oh yeah I did :) I remeber the lid is similar to a tiny square one I like the look of
[08:20:11] <pfred1> here it is after a hard night of partying! http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/6926185/hr/663010068/name/Blast.jpg
[08:20:31] <pfred1> the lush!
[08:20:45] <pfred1> yeah i run it on wood scraps
[08:21:13] <pfred1> once you get that blast rolling it melts aluminum fine
[08:22:46] <MattyMatt> http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/guest_martin.html
[08:23:40] <MattyMatt> slotted angle is a bit rich for me, when any can would do, but I like that one
[08:24:26] <pfred1> I made this page for this kid http://www.abymc.com/Articles/Gallery/Justin_CharFdy.html
[08:25:20] <pfred1> kids wild he did a melt in a paint bucket!
[08:25:40] <MattyMatt> we don't really do leaf blowers here
[08:25:56] <pfred1> MattyMatt why not?
[08:26:12] <MattyMatt> well we managed 5000 years without them :)
[08:26:39] <pfred1> I'd be sunk without my leaf blowers
[08:27:00] <pfred1> I have one of them big ground ones on wheels a 5 HP Giant Vac
[08:27:01] <MattyMatt> only until it mulches down at the first frost
[08:27:17] <pfred1> and like 4 hand blowers
[08:28:06] <pjm__> good morning
[08:28:38] <pfred1> pjm__ yeah good night for me
[08:28:57] <pfred1> MattyMatt one like this: http://www.ganos.com/usedgiantvac8hpwhisperjet.jpg
[08:29:04] <MattyMatt> time to hit the store, and it's almost tools-up time \o/
[08:33:07] <pjm__> that is an excellant page on the blast furnace
[08:33:13] <pjm__> i need one of them!
[08:33:29] <Valen> I need to grind a ring to .002mm or so
[08:34:05] <Valen> on the inside
[08:35:13] <Valen> any tips?
[08:35:22] <Valen> 100mm ID
[08:51:05] <MattyMatt> 99 is better than 101 :)
[08:51:33] <MattyMatt> beyond that, ask an expert
[08:55:51] <MattyMatt> I did read that it's easy to end up with 3 lobes, so that it's exactly 100mm across every diameter, yet not circular
[08:56:52] <MattyMatt> but if it's mounted on a good spindle, you should be able to avoid that
[08:57:16] <MattyMatt> or at least measure it with a dial gauge
[10:29:11] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[11:13:06] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[11:13:19] <Valen> wazzzzap
[11:15:14] <piasdom> yesterday emc shutdown with error....i did the same thing that i did when it got the error and now it works..i can't repeat the error
[11:15:58] <Valen> I blame those things on cosmic rays causing a bit flip in the CMOS memory
[11:16:07] <Valen> my customers think it sounds really cool
[11:16:58] <piasdom> hahahhaah...i think hat must be it
[11:17:03] <piasdom> *that
[11:17:13] <Valen> its even plausible
[11:17:34] <Valen> there were lots of people who said ordinary ram couldn't work from the cosmic rays
[11:17:51] <Valen> turns out its pretty ok on this side of the atmosphere and ECC ram is ok on the other ;->
[17:04:56] <ds3> 9
[17:05:14] <archivist> 8
[17:20:33] <pjm__> evening!
[17:24:28] <archivist> nearly :)
[17:27:24] <pjm__> i was 1/2 considering having a punt on ebay 170406956849
[17:27:29] <pjm__> since it is near me
[17:29:51] <archivist> hmm good starting lump
[17:30:21] <pjm__> well the bit that caught my eye was the 3ph motor and the MT3
[17:30:29] <pjm__> and i have a spare VFD chucked in the shed
[17:31:08] <Jymmm> archivist: Hey, can 32bit mysql deal with a 10^42 int ?
[17:32:03] <archivist> Jymmm, large ints are buggy, and they documented instead of fixing
[17:33:41] <archivist> http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.1/en/arithmetic-functions.html
[17:34:02] <Jymmm> archivist: alternative? bcmath or anythng like that?
[17:34:33] <archivist> Jymmm, I filed a bug about the matter on sunday
[17:34:42] <Jymmm> oh, ok.
[17:35:03] <archivist> do you know the mariadb fork
[17:35:19] <Jymmm> never heard of it
[17:36:12] <archivist> monty who started mysql is the owner so things may happen
[17:36:57] <archivist> Jymmm, alternative at the moment is use a float/double
[17:37:38] <Jymmm> That's whay I was trying to avoid to prevent from dealing with FP issues. oh well
[17:43:20] <skunkworks_> what do you guys think of postgresql?
[17:44:04] <archivist> its different, dunno
[17:44:39] <gweepprefect> i tend to consider postgres to be a more "serious" db
[17:44:52] <Jymmm> skunkworks_: If oyu have critical work, pg
[17:45:03] <Jymmm> finance, science, etc
[17:47:19] <skunkworks_> one of my coworker is playing with it. (think it has a lot of the mysql issues taken care of)
[17:50:17] <archivist> but probably has its own issues
[17:52:13] <skunkworks_> :)
[18:46:51] <mozmck> I've used postgres a good bit a while back. I think it is more mature than mysql from everything I've read.
[18:53:38] <Jymmm> I may say screw it and use sqlite - just being lazy
[19:11:24] <MattyMatt> be extra lazy. use packed structs in a binary file
[19:12:18] <skunkworks_> text files
[19:12:55] <MattyMatt> yeah they're good too
[19:13:18] <skunkworks_> comma delimited file
[19:13:40] <MattyMatt> indeed
[19:13:50] <skunkworks_> we had an accounting program that was written in ibm basic - used text files as the data files.
[19:13:57] <MattyMatt> anything that's parsable and readable too is a bonus
[19:14:29] <archivist_attic1> and slow
[19:14:51] <MattyMatt> suppose all you're data was in a corrupt mySQL 3.0 db? you'd be screwed now
[19:15:01] <MattyMatt> ^your
[19:49:08] <yoyoek1> czesc / hi
[19:51:24] <motioncontrol> good evening at all. a question about the dxf file.what is the good software for inport the autocad dxf file and convert at in g code thanks ?
[19:52:49] <yoyoek1> try http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?GcodeGenerator :)
[19:53:26] <motioncontrol> yoyoek1, more thanks
[20:01:32] <motioncontrol> yoyoek1, excuse have the problem with start up the mGcodegenerator can help me please ?
[20:02:14] <yoyoek1> motioncontrol: it is a plugin / script for blender in is not a standalong app
[20:03:06] <motioncontrol> ok i have start whith python .blender is free ?
[20:03:19] <yoyoek1> o siiis
[20:03:35] <motioncontrol> have link?
[20:03:46] <yoyoek1> nooo find faq how install some plugins to blender
[20:04:04] <yoyoek1> you are linux or windows user ?
[20:04:04] <motioncontrol> ok thanks i search
[20:04:13] <motioncontrol> i use linux
[20:04:27] <yoyoek1> you have blender installed ?
[20:04:32] <motioncontrol> no
[20:04:52] <yoyoek1> install it and say whan you done
[20:04:59] <motioncontrol> ok thanks
[20:55:59] <MattyMatt> neato. k6-2 lives.
[20:56:44] <MattyMatt> I forgot you need fiber washers with this age of mobo :)
[20:59:47] <MattyMatt> or I need to screw the mobo next to the driver board in the wooden box
[21:01:19] <MattyMatt> one annoying thing about this hyu68.com board is the mounting holes are too small to use mobo standoffs, you need unc posts off a D connector
[21:15:12] <skunkworks_> I want one.. http://gorton-machine.org:8080/forms/form_3465/index.html
[21:16:13] <MattyMatt> you'd never lose another too :)
[21:16:23] <MattyMatt> ~l
[21:17:41] <MattyMatt> is that paper tape or magnetic?
[21:18:56] <christel> [Global Notice] Hi all, one of our sponsors appear to be having some routing issues at present -- we're waiting for more information. Affected users 3000~ Apologies for the inconvenience and thank you for using freenode.
[21:21:03] <MattyMatt> wow I didn't know ballscrews were invented back then. when is it? 1970s?
[21:22:53] <MattyMatt> The typography (and the glasses the dudes are wearing) says between 1966 and 1972 to me
[21:31:24] <MattyMatt> ah yes, the Letraset doesn't lie
[21:50:46] <awallin> anyone using a QCTP on their cnc-lathe? I'm wondering if the tools go back exactly where they were when you change back and forth
[21:57:20] <andypugh> Close enough for me
[22:12:27] <awallin> know of anyone who sells good ones? for metric tools?
[22:13:28] <archivist_emc> Im using a chinese one seems oh after an adjustment or two not mearsured properly yet
[22:13:34] <archivist_emc> ok
[22:15:13] <awallin> yeah, looked at Aloris, but US made is expensive
[22:15:21] <awallin> european made probably more so...
[22:15:33] <awallin> http://www.aloris.com/content/user_1/AlorisCatalog2009.pdf
[22:15:40] <andypugh> Bison are Polish, which counts as european, and relatively cheap
[22:15:51] <andypugh> Where are you?
[22:16:55] <awallin> Finland
[22:18:09] <andypugh> Hmm, you could try: http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/QUICKCHANGE_TOOLPOST.html
[22:18:39] <awallin> hm, Bison VDI toolholders are BIG
[22:19:04] <awallin> did UK lower their VAT to 15?
[22:19:09] <awallin> thoght it was 17,5
[22:19:39] <andypugh> It changed, but I thought it was back to 17.5% now
[22:21:09] <archivist_emc> rdg is cheapo
[22:21:24] <awallin> yep, how is the quality?
[22:21:30] <awallin> chinese-made?
[22:21:37] <andypugh> OK. Not stellar, but OK
[22:21:41] <andypugh> Polish, I htink
[22:21:41] <archivist_emc> chines of indian copies
[22:22:06] <pfred1> well its back to the drawing board with my BOB over here
[22:23:04] <andypugh> Very similar products from http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Chronos_Catalogue_Quick_Change_Toolposts_69.html
[22:23:45] <pfred1> andypugh just change the tools you lazy git!
[22:24:05] <andypugh> Huh?
[22:25:36] <andypugh> For what I am doing the main advantage of a QCTP is being able to set tool height without messing about with shims.
[22:26:08] <pfred1> andypugh OK I thought you wanted an automatic tool changer
[22:26:20] <pfred1> QCTPs are OK
[22:26:55] <pfred1> really people that have them seem to not let them get pried from their cold dead hands
[22:27:48] <awallin> I wonder how hard it is to mill DIY tool-holders for those dovetail QCTPs...
[22:27:49] <andypugh> Probably better quality: http://www.cromwell.co.uk/static/publication/547/pages/746.pdf
[22:27:53] <awallin> with a cnc-mill ofcourse
[22:27:58] <andypugh> and http://www.cromwell.co.uk/static/publication/547/pages/747.pdf
[22:28:33] <andypugh> at <£15 each from eBay I can't be bothered.
[22:29:07] <awallin> andypugh: are they all some standard size so they fit the QCTP?
[22:29:39] <andypugh> Yes. But there are two sizes.
[22:29:45] <andypugh> Sorry, two sorts.
[22:30:49] <andypugh> The links I sent were mainly to "Dickson" type. Those have a slot and two V-grooves, and the holder is pulled back to the toolpost. The piston-type (like you posted a link to) clamp differently.
[22:31:24] <awallin> the cromwell link looks different also...
[22:31:28] <pfred1> awallin people make their own QCTPs
[22:31:50] <MattyMatt> out of plywood
[22:31:53] <andypugh> The Dickson ones come in T00, T0, T1, T2, T3, T4. However T0 and T1 are compatible. (I have a T0 toolpost, but have a T1 holder for the 20x20 threading tool).
[22:31:56] <MattyMatt> * MattyMatt ducks
[22:32:43] <andypugh> There is also a version which is interchangeable with Dickson-type but numbered S0, S1, S2, S3.
[22:33:54] <awallin> the cromwell pdf links you sent were Dickson type?
[22:34:04] <andypugh> Yes, as was the RDG one
[22:36:08] <andypugh> Seems I am doomed never to cut this blasted M39 x 4mm spindle nose thread, I broke another threading tool
[22:37:00] <pfred1> andypugh threading on a lathe?
[22:37:15] <archivist_emc> 39x4 is a bit big for my puny starturn
[22:37:18] <andypugh> What I have cut looks lovely. But not deep enough yet. I am doing it in three bites, but I think perhaps I got the maths wrong for the setback for the second and third cuts
[22:37:31] <andypugh> Yes, on my cheap chinese lathe
[22:38:01] <archivist_emc> my southbend would eat it but its imperial only
[22:38:15] <pfred1> andypugh yes theoretically threading metric on lathes is impossible :)
[22:38:34] <andypugh> "Cuts" in this sense is not to be confused with "passes". each cut is 20+ passes
[22:38:46] <MattyMatt> even with a 127 tooth changewheel?
[22:39:07] <pfred1> lathe threads are ratios
[22:39:13] <pfred1> I mean metric threads
[22:39:14] <awallin> huh? I thought you were running cnc-lathes? :)
[22:39:19] <andypugh> It's a CNC lathe, it can cut Holzapfel threads if I tell it to.
[22:39:29] <pfred1> andypugh oh OK
[22:39:44] <pfred1> I was thinking leadscrew
[22:40:03] <pfred1> andypugh your lathe still has a leadscrew right?
[22:40:04] <andypugh> You can still do it with a 127 tooth wheel.
[22:40:21] <andypugh> Yes and no, it's on a ballscrew + stepper
[22:40:58] <andypugh> (Running emc 2.3.4 which is much, much better at threading)
[22:41:04] <pfred1> iimagine that can compensate for any ratio
[22:41:26] <andypugh> Indeed.
[22:41:37] <pfred1> well happy threading then
[22:41:42] <andypugh> Though you can do any ratio on any lathe, with the right changewheels
[22:42:15] <Coder4life> u can
[22:42:20] <andypugh> What you can't do is use the thread counter though.
[22:43:34] <Coder4life> ;)
[22:43:37] <pfred1> isn't metric thread root / tool shape different too?
[22:44:02] <MattyMatt> I didn't get how the changewheel sets for the emco5 manage imp + metric, unless there's 127 tooth in the fixed geartrain
[22:44:10] <andypugh> But with a manual lathe, if you leave the nut engaged, and reverse the motor you can cut any thread you fancy. The Colchester Student even offers the option of running faster motor speed in reverse.
[22:44:28] <andypugh> Yes, you need to change the lathe tool too...
[22:44:59] <archivist_emc> tipped tools have all the form of the thread
[22:45:18] <pfred1> metric is good for a lot of stuf hardware isn't one of them though :)
[22:45:25] <MattyMatt> plain 60deg point for metric, isn't it?
[22:45:40] <archivist_emc> yes
[22:45:46] <Coder4life> lmao
[22:45:58] <andypugh> MattyMatt: 127 tooth wheel, or possibly just pretending with "close enough"
[22:46:14] <archivist_emc> tipped tools round the top of the thread correctly too
[22:46:26] <pfred1> yes lots like to start metric on a lathe and finish it with a die
[22:46:41] <andypugh> Not at 4mm pitch they don't. Or not that I have founs
[22:47:05] <awallin> another lathe questions. if you have rear mounted tools, would you prefer them facing upwards (spindle rotates opposite to manual lathe), or facing down (spindle rotates as on manual lathe) ?
[22:47:15] <andypugh> I think the standard is flat-topped. Whitworth is round-topped
[22:47:57] <andypugh> Upwards. But it depends on the bed design. If you have a Vee-bed then inverting the forces is just daft
[22:48:04] <Coder4life> tried to get service guy to tell me how to access and copy the hard drive on these brother mills running EMC he seemed surprised I knew it was a linux based machine lol
[22:48:19] <DaViruz_> pfred1: would you care to explain that opinion?
[22:48:43] <andypugh> Some people like to part in reverse, but I have never seen what it is meant to achieve
[22:49:02] <archivist_emc> awallin, depends on machine construction, ie use the cutting force to close up onto the sliding ways
[22:49:05] <pfred1> DaViruz_ personal prefference metric hardware makes me want to puke
[22:49:05] <awallin> maybe better to have the cutting forces push down on the tool then?
[22:49:19] <DaViruz_> that's not an explanation at all
[22:49:29] <pfred1> DaViruz_ far as I'm concerned when I see it I drill it up and tap it standarde
[22:49:56] <pfred1> DaViruz_ simply put is is crap
[22:50:03] <frallzor> "I like blue, its better"
[22:50:08] <DaViruz_> like i said, why?
[22:50:17] <DaViruz_> you must have a reason to consider it crap
[22:50:17] <MattyMatt> we are over the tipping point in UK. if you gotta choose one or the other, metric makes sense now
[22:50:21] <pfred1> frallzor I like hardware with pitch
[22:50:50] <frallzor> Im pretty sure metric has pitch too...
[22:50:53] <pfred1> metric stuff is all fine thread and has no bite
[22:51:03] <archivist_emc> wrong
[22:51:03] <pfred1> too fine a one
[22:51:15] <andypugh> UNF takes the prize for that.
[22:51:17] <pfred1> well all the metric garbae I've ever seen
[22:51:19] <Coder4life> don't matter here I am a machinist I say roll your own lol rolled threads are cool but really whatever it takes to do the job
[22:51:22] <arriflex_> arriflex_ is now known as arriflex
[22:51:27] <archivist_emc> there is metric coarse and fine
[22:51:31] <andypugh> If you like coarse, then Whitworth is your choice.
[22:51:31] <pfred1> andypugh must be why we have UNC too
[22:51:36] <DaViruz_> finer pitch means MORE bite
[22:51:38] <DaViruz_> actually..
[22:51:57] <andypugh> Yeah, there is the fact that he is talking utter bollocks to consider.
[22:52:19] <pfred1> andypugh there is the fact that I have hundreds of pounds of hardware too
[22:52:43] <pfred1> and I just do not care for metric i mean cut some damned threads in the stuff why don't you?
[22:52:49] <DaViruz_> you like imperial because you have a lot of imperial stuff, sure, i can buy that
[22:53:00] <DaViruz_> but that doesn't make it superior
[22:53:07] <DaViruz_> better for you, absolutely
[22:53:08] <pfred1> DaViruz_ and all the metric stuff I've ever used has been substandard
[22:53:18] <frallzor> sigh...
[22:53:58] <pfred1> I've been spinning wrenches for over 30 years and metric hardware is inferior to standard the threads are too shallow
[22:54:00] <MattyMatt> in US it still makes sense. The solsylva machine can be made entirely from random imp hardware from the local home centre. That's impossible here
[22:54:25] <andypugh> M12 - 14.5tpi. 1/2" UNC 13 tpi. Not a lot in it
[22:54:32] <andypugh> http://www.bodgesoc.org/thread_dia_pitch.html
[22:54:39] <pfred1> OK if you want it I'll put it bluntly metric hardware is for pussies OK?
[22:54:50] <pfred1> its effeminite
[22:54:58] <andypugh> (Is he drunk?)
[22:55:08] <DaViruz_> quite possible
[22:55:17] <pfred1> andypugh I tried to be nice about it
[22:55:33] <pfred1> eurofag crap
[22:55:44] <frallzor> you dont have a working argument so you fall back on crap?
[22:56:02] <pfred1> frallzor not one you'll acknowlege
[22:56:09] <andypugh> Typically metric is intermediate in pitch between UNC and BSF/UNF
[22:56:31] <andypugh> That link is to a table where every standard I could find is laid out in size order.
[22:56:34] <pfred1> andypugh it is all too fine for my tastes
[22:56:38] <DaViruz_> you can make a metric thread in whatever pitch you desire
[22:56:52] <DaViruz_> and a finer pitch doesn't mean it's weaker, just the opposite
[22:56:55] <frallzor> and you wanted more BITE and fine = more bite!
[22:57:02] <frallzor> smurf!
[22:57:20] <pfred1> frallzor well maybe I mischose my words i am sorry
[22:57:43] <Coder4life> Sound like a bunch of engineers that us machinist want to kill because you want a standard that has nothing to do with function lol
[22:57:46] <pfred1> metric is crap to lineup and start
[22:58:04] <pfred1> yeah it is great for people who never have to crawl under a car and use it I suppose
[22:58:16] <DaViruz_> so you have a poor fingertip feeling
[22:58:32] <andypugh> Well, finer gives a tighter clamp, and leaves a lot more strength in the bolt. But the UNF stuff they used in 1970s cars rusted and siezed the moment you looked at it. I have known whitworth come apart easily after 70 years in a field.
[22:58:36] <pfred1> DaViruz_ when I'm in grease up to my elbows yes sometimes
[22:58:47] <pfred1> DaViruz_ holding up a transmission with my other hand!
[22:59:03] <pfred1> been there done that
[22:59:06] <andypugh> The thing is, the pitch is about the same.
[22:59:08] <DaViruz_> well BTDT and i've never had alot of problems with it
[22:59:35] <pfred1> man time to use /ignore
[22:59:38] <andypugh> Though if someone chooses to use a metric fine, then that is no different to someone using a UNF
[23:00:28] <pfred1> andypugh my exprience with metric hardware is limited I've never seen anythng but a fine pitch when it comes to the stuff
[23:00:52] <frallzor> wouldnt it help to know more about stuff you bash? =)
[23:01:01] <pfred1> frallzor no
[23:01:03] <MattyMatt> I chose M8 partly because I thought it was 1mm, so my handwheels would be easy to mark. I screwed that up. I think I need 125 divs with no numbers now
[23:01:10] <pfred1> I wish metric hardware was never made
[23:01:38] <DaViruz_> i wish people who say thoughtless things were never made
[23:01:38] <frallzor> metric hardware has a wish too
[23:01:39] <pfred1> it serves no use for me except to annoy
[23:01:44] <MattyMatt> lotsa people here wish France was never made :)
[23:02:14] <pfred1> heck most all metric bolts are 10mm anyways
[23:02:19] <andypugh> M6 is 1mm pitch. As is M8 fine, and 12mm spark plug...
[23:02:26] <pfred1> bout the only useful size of the stuff I guess
[23:03:19] <andypugh> metric at least keeps the same naming standard when it gets small. I find all this 6-32 stuff confusing with imperial.
[23:03:25] <pfred1> all I'm saying is metric hardware is poor range compared to standard
[23:03:36] <frallzor> "standard"
[23:03:47] <Coder4life> u want strong thread though I choose acme
[23:04:05] <pfred1> Coder4life I choose a bigger bolt
[23:04:19] <Coder4life> nice beefy square thread
[23:04:24] <awallin> andypugh: the T.0 size Dickson holder will hold a 12x12mm tool?
[23:04:48] <pfred1> we tried metric here once in 1975
[23:04:54] <pfred1> it lasted all of 2 weeks
[23:05:17] <pfred1> people got pissed off at the gas pumps buying liters ;)
[23:05:31] <pfred1> and that was the end of that
[23:05:39] <MattyMatt> we got used to that. a litre is all we can afford
[23:05:54] <andypugh> awallin: Yes
[23:06:08] <andypugh> 16x16 in fact, I think
[23:06:10] <pfred1> MattyMatt yeah well you could fit european countries into a midsied state over here which is to say we all have a lot further to drive
[23:06:48] <MattyMatt> we can drive to turkey now, without a visa
[23:06:51] <andypugh> I was discussing with a german why I think of fuel consumption in "miles per litre"
[23:07:04] <pfred1> andypugh heh
[23:07:42] <pfred1> what is a kilometer like a half a mile?
[23:07:56] <MattyMatt> we don't need California, we've got the genuine Spain
[23:08:01] <andypugh> A bit more. We don't use them
[23:08:28] <pfred1> yeah speed limits are posted here in MPH
[23:08:33] <MattyMatt> yeah kph is the last barrier. too many roadsigns
[23:08:49] <pfred1> pfft no barrier here
[23:08:53] <MattyMatt> "the sign said 110, so I was doing 110 officer"
[23:08:55] <pfred1> inmates make road signs
[23:09:11] <MattyMatt> it's not the writing, it's the reading :)
[23:09:22] <pfred1> yeah thats why it'd never fly here
[23:09:25] <awallin> pfred1: I do like the way your currency is going. gonna buy some serious electronics and Canon-lenses on my next visit :)
[23:09:43] <MattyMatt> to japan?
[23:09:48] <pfred1> awallin yeah its great now we can pay all the money we owe
[23:09:56] <andypugh> awallin: Looking at the Cromwell site, T0 is 12x12 nominal.
[23:10:46] <pfred1> awallin I mean you don't seriously entertain the notion that you're on the same mental level as the people manipulating the market do you?
[23:11:07] <awallin> andypugh: OK. the T0 from Cromwell looks interesting. especially if more toolholders are cheap on ebay. How does it mount on the lathe? does it all come loose when a tool is removed? I hope not?
[23:11:26] <andypugh> awallin: But the T1 holders are the same length between Vee-slots as T0, and they take 16mm (and 20mm ones are available)
[23:11:31] <awallin> pfred1: sorry you lost me. I just get paid in eur and that 1 eur buys me 1.5 dollars...
[23:11:53] <pfred1> awallin yeah but we're more interested in the dollars we spent years ago
[23:11:54] <arriflex_> arriflex_ is now known as arriflex
[23:12:06] <andypugh> No, the central bolt holds it down. There is a special spanner that goes on the three hex things to clamp the tools.
[23:12:14] <pfred1> awallin BTW good luck with your balance of trade :)
[23:12:41] <MattyMatt> biggest mistake saddam made was trying to charge eur for oil
[23:13:23] <pfred1> yes the US would get slapped if it levied tarrifs but who can cray if the dollar gets devalued?
[23:13:30] <MattyMatt> gassing the kurds wasn't nice, of course, but others have done worse and still been invited to dinner
[23:13:33] <awallin> andypugh: so you only loosen the small hex to remove the tool. the big central ones keeps the post fixed?
[23:13:40] <andypugh> Exactly
[23:14:19] <andypugh> However, £170 from cromwell looks expensive compared to £80 from RDG / Chronos / Arc Eurotrade
[23:14:49] <awallin> cromwell catalog is nice. but if parts are the same it's expensive
[23:15:38] <andypugh> I think they are probably better quality from Cromwell.
[23:15:54] <andypugh> Oh, by the way, another source http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Lathe-Accessories
[23:17:01] <andypugh> But surely you have sources in Finland? There was a really good tool shop in the shopping centre in Rovaniemi.
[23:19:32] <andypugh> awallin: Also, when choosing a toolpost, bear in mind that you will probably be throwing away the compound siide (pointless on a CNC) so will have a lot more space for a bigger toolpost.
[23:19:44] <Coder4life> findland got a big machining industry?
[23:19:45] <awallin> ha, rovaniemi is 10h driving north!
[23:20:11] <awallin> Coder4life: not particularly I think...
[23:20:15] <MattyMatt> finland is the taiwan of the the north
[23:20:39] <MattyMatt> unless switzerland is :)
[23:20:43] <awallin> well we have one success, Nokia, it's pretty big :)
[23:20:50] <Coder4life> Well good business in finland then 4 a startup
[23:22:11] <MattyMatt> doesn't everyone in finland have a rally car?
[23:22:54] <awallin> no but the road to everyones summer house is not surfaced, it's a sand road. so everyone becomes a rally driver.
[23:23:42] <andypugh> I go to Finland every year for 2 weeks to drive onice.
[23:24:41] <awallin> cool, there was a Porche program just on TV where they showed some finnish rally driver giving some kind of "masterclass" to Porche enthusiasts from all over who had come here
[23:25:38] <andypugh> A Porsche? On ice? Were they suicidal?
[23:25:45] <MattyMatt> I want a proper 911 one day, not a 4wd one
[23:26:20] <MattyMatt> * MattyMatt does the business with a VW Golf and a fiberglass 911 kit
[23:26:27] <MattyMatt> poper enough :)
[23:26:30] <MattyMatt> ^r
[23:27:03] <DaViruz_> front wheel drive 911? :)
[23:27:10] <MattyMatt> shh
[23:27:15] <DaViruz_> :)
[23:28:02] <MattyMatt> ok, an old Beetle engine in the back. 4wd, happy now?
[23:28:24] <DaViruz_> hmm, not really no
[23:28:34] <MattyMatt> nor me, tbh
[23:29:09] <MattyMatt> one of those french military dual engined Mokes could be a laugh, on a sunny day
[23:29:39] <pfred1> nothing wrecks quite like a Porsche does
[23:30:04] <pfred1> buddy of mine wrapped a Targa around a tee he even broke the radio in it!
[23:30:37] <MattyMatt> yeah so fiberglass would do me. once it's broke, it's broke
[23:30:51] <pfred1> pfft there was no fixing this car
[23:31:18] <pfred1> it was bent two different ways around the tree then the whole thing was curved up
[23:31:20] <MattyMatt> fiberglass would work better underwater too
[23:31:32] <MattyMatt> james bond style
[23:32:13] <pfred1> man I wish I had a picture of that car today
[23:32:39] <pfred1> the dent went right up to the trans tunnel!
[23:33:13] <pfred1> we found it by following the drag marks they left on the street
[23:33:29] <MattyMatt> crumple zones. I am finally accepting they are a good thing
[23:33:44] <pfred1> MattyMatt this was like a 78 Targa with t tops
[23:33:45] <MattyMatt> the road death stats don't lie
[23:33:58] <pfred1> no cruple zones just crumpled car
[23:34:19] <MattyMatt> yeah one big crumple zone, like that ford sierra I had
[23:34:23] <pfred1> the passenger seat was completely gone
[23:34:40] <pfred1> just part of the dent
[23:34:51] <pfred1> he did kill that tree though
[23:34:59] <MattyMatt> I had a renault I crashed into lots of things, but it never broke
[23:35:01] <pfred1> bout 3 years later they had to cut it down
[23:35:21] <pfred1> this was a uge oak tree like 3 feet in diameter
[23:35:41] <pfred1> and he lost control and slammed into it sideways doing about 75 MPH
[23:36:19] <pfred1> porsches are great up until you take tehm past that point then its goodbye
[23:36:43] <pfred1> and maybe a fraction of a percent of people on the planet could recover
[23:37:12] <pfred1> which is to say they're rather unforgiving
[23:37:56] <MattyMatt> it comes from the country that put racetracks on the roof of apartment buildings :)
[23:38:35] <pfred1> I guess if you're one of those unique individuals with the skill to drive one they're great
[23:38:51] <pfred1> but you don't meet those people everyday
[23:39:18] <pfred1> most people i see driving porsches down the road are in the slow lane wit hthem
[23:40:00] <MattyMatt> they are good everyday cars, apart from the load space
[23:40:18] <pfred1> apart form you need lars to tune it up for you
[23:40:53] <andypugh> I can't imagine going back to less than 1000hp / kg
[23:40:55] <pfred1> give me a Mercedes anyday
[23:41:29] <DaViruz_> andypugh: what's you daily driver, the space shuttle? :D
[23:41:31] <pfred1> I donno the last Porsche I raced I beat pretty roundly
[23:41:47] <andypugh> Yamaha R1. It's all I have.
[23:41:54] <pfred1> I don't find most of them to be particularly fast
[23:42:00] <MattyMatt> i just want a battery in my fiesta. the first 100 pounds is the most effective
[23:42:15] <MattyMatt> or more like 400 with tax & insurance
[23:42:47] <DaViruz_> andypugh: oh, but surely it doesn't have 1000hp / kg :)
[23:42:54] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[23:43:03] <andypugh> No, I mixed my units. 1000hp / ton
[23:43:08] <DaViruz_> ah
[23:43:35] <MattyMatt> you can get a real horse for less than 1kg of sugar cubes
[23:43:41] <andypugh> 1000hp / kg would be interesting, but probably fatal.
[23:44:02] <pfred1> we've no illusions here or helmet laws
[23:44:13] <andypugh> Yeah, the odd thing is that 200 horses are no faster than one. It makes no sense.
[23:45:24] <MattyMatt> compound pulleys
[23:46:09] <MattyMatt> horses at destination, long rope to start
[23:46:17] <pfred1> hmm i wonder if this is him?
[23:47:37] <pfred1> somethng tells me it is