#emc | Logs for 2009-11-16

[00:00:01] <ds3> no, just a 1 inch glob all over it
[00:00:10] <MattyMatt> jam the blade with that or kevlar, like chainsaw gloves
[00:00:13] <ds3> HDPE is the cutting board material
[00:00:20] <ds3> the diamond would help dull the silicon carbide
[00:00:50] <MattyMatt> bunging it up with fibre is quicker
[00:01:04] <ds3> hmmm
[00:01:12] <pfred1> yeah I think I saw a machine that used a rope to jamb up the works of opponents
[00:01:39] <pfred1> or a net or something it like shredded into fibers
[00:04:03] <MattyMatt> or a layer of gloop under the skin. that would spoil any weapon
[00:04:52] <MattyMatt> so, long kevlar fibres soaked in battery acid gel :)
[00:05:03] <MattyMatt> or Alien blood
[00:05:27] <MattyMatt> really? oh apparently that's fictional
[00:06:39] <MattyMatt> apply a layer of 20 minute epoxy, 10 min before the fight
[00:07:00] <MattyMatt> tarbaby
[00:07:52] <MattyMatt> that may be classed as a chemical weapon tho
[00:08:35] <pfred1> just strong fibers and mechanics don't seem to mix too well
[00:08:41] <MattyMatt> like the "spray with ferric choride, then run like hell untill his pcbs melt"
[00:10:16] <MattyMatt> yeah kapok if you want natural, but nylon, polypropylene, even PE
[00:10:58] <skunkworks> but if both robots are stuck togather..
[00:11:04] <MattyMatt> that PE body armour has poor shelf life apparently, which is why it has been withdrawn
[00:12:40] <MattyMatt> if both robots are suck together, then the superior leverage of the biped will win
[00:15:14] <MattyMatt> it would need a full body glove to give full control, and then the human controlling can use his training and instincts to advantage
[00:16:01] <MattyMatt> hmm, PE body armour must be cheap, if there's any left in gun shops
[00:16:47] <MattyMatt> 5 security guards died wearing it before they tested it again after 18 months wear
[00:17:13] <MattyMatt> it's as good as kevlar when new, but crap after a while
[00:19:08] <MattyMatt> cushion stuffing or polyester quilts have the right "snag it and you can pull out miles of it" quality
[00:19:36] <MattyMatt> and while it's intact, it would protect against blunt impact
[00:20:10] <pfred1> saran wrap!
[00:20:20] <pfred1> man that'd mess up a battlebot I bet
[00:20:56] <pfred1> throw one of them pallet wraping machines into the ring it'd be invincible
[00:21:03] <ds3> a8
[00:21:21] <Jymmm> blow torch
[00:21:30] <MattyMatt> fire not allowed
[00:21:34] <pfred1> Jymmm I don't think they allow fire
[00:21:42] <pfred1> or oil
[00:21:42] <Jymmm> edm?
[00:21:47] <pfred1> liquids in general
[00:21:54] <Jymmm> plasma cutter?
[00:21:59] <Jymmm> tesla coil?
[00:22:01] <pfred1> that might be legal
[00:22:09] <Jymmm> thermal reactor?
[00:22:11] <pfred1> though pwering it could be tough
[00:22:22] <MattyMatt> no pressurised bottles, except one co2 cyl I think
[00:22:22] <Jymmm> chainsaw
[00:22:32] <pfred1> yeah have a nice isotope radding the opponent
[00:22:46] <pfred1> chainsaw would be legal
[00:22:52] <pfred1> again you have to power it
[00:24:05] <pfred1> the moving weapons I've seen that seem the most effective are the spinning type like it'll spin up a weight then hit the opponent
[00:24:10] <Jymmm> http://www.stylefeeder.com/i/1mwvwndc/Craftsman-19-2v-C3-Chain-Saw
[00:24:24] <Jymmm> 19.2V chainsaw
[00:24:27] <Jymmm> =)
[00:24:57] <MattyMatt> a scorpion tail sprung spike/hammer can be good backup in clinches
[00:25:26] <pfred1> nastiest tool I know of is an air chisel
[00:25:36] <pfred1> one little blat would do some damage
[00:25:54] <pfred1> I've literally cut cars in half with them
[00:26:15] <MattyMatt> in the red corner, a bridgeport
[00:27:01] <MattyMatt> in the blue corner, a bessemer convertor
[00:27:42] <L84Supper> are you allowed to spray urethane foam in liquid form?
[00:27:54] <pfred1> nope a liquid
[00:28:42] <MattyMatt> they might make a special rule for that on TV, as it would look good and not leave a slipping hazard
[00:29:42] <MattyMatt> you don't see it on TV much anymore, I don't think (but I don't watch much)
[00:30:03] <pfred1> yeah I think it was more of the same
[00:30:24] <pfred1> like I said once the one design came out it was unbeatable
[00:30:40] <L84Supper> throwing kevlar twine sounds good as well
[00:30:50] <pfred1> and it was boring
[00:31:06] <pfred1> L84Supper yeah I saw a robot with frayed rope weapon that was effective
[00:31:21] <pfred1> the fibers would gum up the opponents mechaics
[00:31:30] <pfred1> like the wheels
[00:31:46] <pfred1> also was great against spinning weapons
[00:32:49] <oPless> flame throwers would be good
[00:33:14] <oPless> as would a jammer :)
[00:33:19] <jt-plasma> nuclear peptides
[00:33:37] <L84Supper> very soft taffy launcher
[00:34:06] <pfred1> heh this ones close I ran a #3 http://www.specialsteelco.com/images/Milwaukee%20No.%204%20Vert.%20Mill-1.JPG
[00:34:40] <pfred1> is that a mill and a half or what?
[00:35:14] <MattyMatt> you're on ballscrew grinding duties if you get that one. long bed
[00:35:21] <L84Supper> thats when machines were machines
[00:35:47] <jt-plasma> and sheep were ....
[00:35:59] <pfred1> L84Supper when I ran that thing it'd run a 3" hogging mill through steel like it was cutting balsa wood
[00:36:05] <MattyMatt> a valuable source of lanolin
[00:36:50] <jt-plasma> say goodnight Gracie
[00:36:58] <pfred1> you'd be looking at i going how the hell is it just goung through that block of steel like that?
[00:37:03] <MattyMatt> her name is Sheila
[00:37:34] <pfred1> ours had a skirt on it though that you had to clomb into
[00:37:59] <pfred1> like a big cast pan under it
[00:38:08] <MattyMatt> that's to keep the sheep out
[00:38:16] <pfred1> coolant in
[00:38:45] <pfred1> it may not look it bu that thing is like 12 feet tall
[00:39:13] <pfred1> bridgeports look like toys next to it
[00:39:54] <MattyMatt> oh wow. I guessed 8-9 ft, from the bed height
[00:40:18] <pfred1> yeah the camera angle is funny
[00:40:24] <pfred1> I think they want to sell it
[00:40:36] <pfred1> bcause if you knew how big it was you'd think twice!
[00:41:14] <pfred1> all you can think of when you walk up to it is so this is what a prow of a battleship looks like
[00:41:53] <pfred1> that bet is like 12 feet long too
[00:42:01] <pfred1> bed
[00:42:05] <pfred1> the table
[00:45:22] <MattyMatt> you could make one of them out of trees
[00:46:11] <MattyMatt> and make whole pieces of furniture from other trees
[00:46:14] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[00:47:24] <pfred1> the most amazing thing about it was how smooth it ran
[00:47:30] <pfred1> like it just loved to work
[00:47:57] <pfred1> it'd be doing the silliest cut you can imagine and you could balance a coin on the table while it was doing it
[00:48:10] <MattyMatt> something that heavy isn't going to rock. the earth is smoother than a (cheap) ball bearing
[00:48:16] <pfred1> just tearing through work like it was nothing
[00:48:40] <pfred1> it was like a reality disconnect
[00:48:59] <pfred1> its like I'm seeing it but I'm not feeling it
[00:49:49] <pfred1> it is just too massive
[00:50:04] <pfred1> like I'm looking at that one wondering how in the hell they moved it to there
[00:50:07] <MattyMatt> I got a bit of that feeling from the dremel :) a revelation for tiny jobs
[00:50:41] <pfred1> because we'd drag bridgeports around the shop from time to time but no one ever suggested meging the Milwaukee
[00:51:26] <MattyMatt> it was holding the roof up ;)
[00:51:43] <pfred1> nah we had a bigger machine that did that
[00:51:52] <pfred1> a two stroke broach
[00:52:18] <pfred1> which wasn't the smoothest machine on the planet not by a long shot
[00:52:57] <pfred1> see if I can find one like it
[00:53:20] <pfred1> http://www.fpmiller.com/Images/Inventory/3543_2.jpg
[00:53:28] <MattyMatt> did it look like a steam engine? big flywheel and piston?
[00:53:28] <pfred1> that might be it similar for sure
[00:53:39] <pfred1> nah hydraulic cylinders
[00:53:47] <pfred1> you're thikning of a punch press
[00:53:51] <pfred1> we had them too
[00:56:02] <pfred1> it was a nightmare to operate
[00:56:31] <pfred1> it was all hydraulic logic
[00:56:39] <pfred1> no electric cept the pump
[00:57:27] <MattyMatt> but steppers on the levers & wheels, et voila
[00:57:33] <MattyMatt> ^put
[00:57:36] <pfred1> nope
[00:58:03] <pfred1> nah hard to explain butthis thing needed steady job load or it'd get out of sync
[00:58:17] <pfred1> start acting all crazy going backwards even!
[00:59:13] <pfred1> so running it was like playing beat the clock where if you messed up a 2 pound chunk of metal would shoot at you at high velocity!
[00:59:34] <MattyMatt> nice
[00:59:38] <pfred1> I shot some blocks clear across the shop :)
[00:59:59] <pfred1> before i developed a trick
[01:00:17] <MattyMatt> tie a sheep to it?
[01:00:22] <MattyMatt> sorry :)
[01:00:22] <pfred1> I can't believe this shop had been using this thing for 50 years and never came up wit hthe idea after I thought of it
[01:00:45] <pfred1> well you see you had to load the piece into a cam vise on a sliding table
[01:01:04] <pfred1> the table would come out you'd unload once piece then load another and the table would slide to the blade
[01:01:14] <pfred1> all this was like a constant cycle
[01:01:19] <pfred1> but
[01:01:29] <pfred1> lets say a little metal chip fell into the vise
[01:01:35] <pfred1> and you loaded the piece
[01:01:43] <pfred1> now the piece was sticking out a little bit right?
[01:01:53] <MattyMatt> yep
[01:01:56] <pfred1> and it'd go up to the blade and pow!
[01:02:11] <pfred1> because it engaged a tooth too deeply
[01:02:32] <pfred1> so you had to make damned sure the vise was clean when you loaded it or else
[01:02:44] <pfred1> and you didn't have all day to clean it out
[01:02:52] <pfred1> just a few seconds
[01:03:14] <pfred1> I was trained to use my finger to fish out anythng in the vise
[01:03:23] <MattyMatt> paintbrush
[01:03:24] <pfred1> but hey you miss chips let me tell you
[01:03:40] <MattyMatt> those that don't get under tyhe skin
[01:03:47] <pfred1> well bear in mind that there is a 1 inch oiler spraying oil all over the place
[01:03:57] <pfred1> into the vise onto the work onto you
[01:04:10] <pfred1> oil like you never seen in your life
[01:04:34] <pfred1> we'd wear protective pastic suits running this puppy
[01:04:37] <pfred1> like rain gear
[01:04:56] <pfred1> nah it took me a while but finally i figured it out
[01:05:01] <pfred1> a magnet
[01:05:10] <pfred1> magnets to not miss metal chips
[01:05:14] <pfred1> ever
[01:05:22] <MattyMatt> not Nd ones
[01:05:24] <pfred1> and they're way fasterthan fingers
[01:05:41] <pfred1> yeah it was a sick powerful one on the end of a screwdriver or something
[01:05:50] <pfred1> you know one of those pickup tools?
[01:06:05] <pfred1> once i started dongthat never had another shot piece
[01:06:18] <MattyMatt> yep, they are cased in steel to stop them smashing
[01:06:27] <pfred1> but thesem orons had been using their fingers for like 50 years before I showed up!
[01:07:14] <pfred1> I mean it didn't take me THAT long to figure it out
[01:07:32] <MattyMatt> they were still in business after 50 years. give em credit
[01:07:40] <pfred1> just barely
[01:07:59] <pfred1> we had whole rooms of idle machines
[01:08:07] <pfred1> room after room
[01:09:09] <MattyMatt> after 4 years, a machine has depreciated for tax purposes :) it's not uneconomical to keep idle machines these days
[01:09:27] <pfred1> well it was depressing
[01:09:45] <MattyMatt> it's the operators that cost the money these days. that's a good thing
[01:10:05] <pfred1> the shop employed over 30 workers in its heyday it'd dwindled to let me see 7 when I was there
[01:10:26] <MattyMatt> that's the bad thing
[01:10:33] <pfred1> not if you're a worker it isn't
[01:10:52] <pfred1> yeah this place was going under
[01:11:09] <pfred1> and you felt it everyday you were there
[01:11:35] <MattyMatt> now a biped, that's the best shape for turning around the fortunes of a flagging company.
[01:11:57] <pfred1> nah the founder was 84 nd his son that'd taken it over was a total loser
[01:12:08] <MattyMatt> yeah that's the usual way
[01:12:28] <pfred1> al he wanted to do was bleed the company for his good life
[01:12:58] <pfred1> so he could gas up his power boat and burn $200 of gas going out and back
[01:13:20] <pfred1> crap like that
[01:15:17] <MattyMatt> I'm leaving my firm to my robosapien
[01:16:05] <MattyMatt> or at least telling any real sons I have that I am ;)
[01:16:35] <MattyMatt> let them find out they're getting it when they are about 35
[01:16:38] <pfred1> yeah I don't know what you can do in a situation like that
[01:16:59] <pfred1> oh the son was in his 50s I think
[01:17:06] <pfred1> he was just a dil though
[01:17:16] <MattyMatt> but he'd been dreaming of squandering it all his life
[01:17:23] <pfred1> I guess
[01:17:31] <pfred1> he was like a 3 time loser
[01:17:46] <pfred1> he started up some businesses and ran them out of business
[01:18:01] <MattyMatt> yeah don't even tell your kids you've got a firm
[01:20:00] <MattyMatt> don't tell them you're their father :)
[01:20:12] <pfred1> heh
[01:21:59] <MattyMatt> I suppose the trick is to go public, but then management does what your wayward son would
[01:22:56] <pfred1> work it onto your employee base that htey eventually buy you out
[01:23:07] <MattyMatt> ah the boss shoulda trained apprentices, and not let the son know he was the only one
[01:23:15] <pfred1> you know stock options or somethng with each check
[01:23:21] <pfred1> micro options
[01:23:35] <MattyMatt> yeah, and only leave 10% per child
[01:23:44] <pfred1> something that if they stayed long enough they'd have something
[01:23:58] <MattyMatt> the trouble is, a charismatic leader thinks it's compulsary
[01:24:03] <pfred1> I mean then you have to figure they'd have the most at stake
[01:24:05] <MattyMatt> to have leader
[01:24:29] <pfred1> ah a lot can be said for a commited workforce
[01:24:44] <pfred1> people rise to the occasion if they feel involved
[01:25:12] <MattyMatt> yeah although it does allow bickering. a clear chain of command has advantages
[01:25:17] <pfred1> you know a whole profit sharing scheme that ends up they own it
[01:25:37] <pfred1> well sure they're be an elected foreman
[01:26:23] <MattyMatt> and then you've got politics, but no way to avoid that I suppose
[01:26:28] <pfred1> a "boss" there always has to be a boss but good employees don't need bosses much
[01:26:42] <pfred1> just to tell you what to do
[01:26:46] <pfred1> then you do it
[01:27:15] <MattyMatt> capital expenditure. who elects the finaciers? annually at the shareholder's meeting?
[01:27:47] <pfred1> unions meet once a month nothing annual about it though there are other annual events
[01:28:00] <pfred1> like annual elections
[01:28:22] <MattyMatt> managers on short-term contracts would be very untrustworthy
[01:28:24] <pfred1> an employee owned company might want to meet more often than that
[01:29:18] <pfred1> it was weird when I got into the machinists union I had to say I didn't want to be management
[01:29:24] <pfred1> was some ritual
[01:29:44] <pfred1> they were like just say it you have to say it then I said it then it was like OK you're in
[01:29:45] <MattyMatt> I'd say "hell yes I do"
[01:29:55] <pfred1> then you'd be out the door!
[01:30:00] <MattyMatt> I am
[01:30:04] <pfred1> they'd be like OK but there is no work here for you
[01:30:08] <pfred1> that was part of it
[01:30:17] <MattyMatt> screw them too
[01:30:36] <MattyMatt> I'll outcompete them by managing myself
[01:30:41] <pfred1> no union members could't be management and management couldn't be union members
[01:30:51] <pfred1> thems the rules
[01:31:11] <pfred1> yeah like I said it was messed up
[01:31:21] <pfred1> but that is what it was
[01:31:23] <MattyMatt> remnants of class system
[01:31:33] <pfred1> oh it was a ritual
[01:31:35] <MattyMatt> them & us
[01:31:41] <pfred1> yup exactly
[01:31:55] <pfred1> it was labor and management
[01:32:09] <pfred1> one couldn't be the other
[01:32:39] <MattyMatt> which is the screwed up part. management is for worn out labourers :)
[01:33:10] <pfred1> well maybe that was another ritual I didn't stick around long enough for?
[01:33:12] <MattyMatt> or their wives
[01:33:36] <pfred1> though our master machinist was old as hell
[01:33:49] <MattyMatt> or the bloke who can't operate a machine, because of his wheelchair
[01:33:49] <pfred1> every year hed talk about retiring
[01:33:59] <pfred1> but he never would retire
[01:34:10] <pfred1> he'd be like maybe this year I will retire?
[01:34:21] <MattyMatt> it's deadly, is retiring, unless you have a dream
[01:34:30] <pfred1> man he probably died and got sucked up into the Bridgeport
[01:34:42] <pfred1> he had his own
[01:34:45] <pfred1> his own room
[01:35:01] <pfred1> he was one cool old bird
[01:35:20] <pfred1> you knew it was springtime when Bugsley brought in his lawnmower blade to sharpen
[01:35:35] <pfred1> he'd sharpen it on the surface grinder
[01:35:42] <pfred1> balance the blade on a pencil point
[01:38:24] <MattyMatt> AI is the only answer to management. labourers can own an AI even if they lack the skills to manage their own business
[01:38:58] <MattyMatt> of course rich people will own better AI, but c'est la vie
[01:39:14] <pfred1> what is an AL?
[01:39:26] <MattyMatt> AI artificial intelligence
[01:39:37] <MattyMatt> brain in a box
[01:39:40] <pfred1> MattyMatt oh so in other words there is no answer
[01:39:48] <pfred1> least not yet
[01:40:05] <MattyMatt> 20 years until a PC can outthink a human, I reckon
[01:40:14] <MattyMatt> maybe 15
[01:41:43] <MattyMatt> they'll be managing household budgets within 5
[01:42:11] <MattyMatt> in some ways they already are, if you do online banking
[01:42:41] <MattyMatt> but they'll start making suggestions of their own
[01:42:59] <pfred1> donno
[01:43:47] <MattyMatt> we'll see
[01:44:07] <pfred1> I've seen things come a long way but still not that far really
[01:44:15] <MattyMatt> asimo will keep getting cheaper and smarter
[01:44:21] <pfred1> * pfred1 predates digital clocks ...
[01:45:16] <MattyMatt> yeah I'm old enough to remember apollo and how it meant we'd all live on the moon by 1990
[01:45:43] <pfred1> heh yeah where's my flying car?
[01:46:05] <MattyMatt> moore's law is the only thing that keeps delivering :)
[01:46:14] <pfred1> I love those old Popular Sciences
[01:46:15] <MattyMatt> although software is lagging
[01:46:43] <pfred1> yeah i wanted to learn how to program but I have no talent with it
[01:47:06] <pfred1> I'm not half bad with machine assembler but any higher languages I suck at
[01:47:07] <MattyMatt> it's overwhelming now
[01:47:27] <MattyMatt> I usually only finish assembler programs
[01:47:42] <MattyMatt> you know when to stop when you've written 64k
[01:47:49] <pfred1> somethng aboiut abstraction I find abstract I guess
[01:48:17] <MattyMatt> I can live with C, but I hate C++
[01:48:20] <pfred1> its strange because I really wanted to learn maybe if I'd given it more time
[01:48:49] <pfred1> but I put a lot of effort into it and saw me going nowhere so I gave up
[01:49:18] <MattyMatt> you have to know what to learn. asm is best so you've done the important thing
[01:50:01] <pfred1> even that was a while ago now
[01:50:13] <MattyMatt> .net, ok fine if it earns you money, but it's a quicksand trap
[01:51:07] <MattyMatt> thankfully some firms are weaning them off the M$ merry-go-round
[01:51:30] <pfred1> heh well wit hthat it is just a question of time and open source has forever
[01:51:52] <pfred1> world domination is coming
[01:52:06] <pfred1> might take 20 years but it'll happen
[01:52:27] <MattyMatt> once an AI is powerful enough to manage the distro >:)
[01:53:03] <pfred1> I had this idea for a really cool distro
[01:55:00] <pfred1> you'd have a basic package but everyone would resubmit their configs ovr the net and users could pick and choose what config combinations they wanted to use and vote on the best and everything would be ranked by how many are using it
[01:55:24] <pfred1> sort of a positive feedback system
[01:55:57] <pfred1> I figured it might make more people want to contribute more
[01:56:22] <MattyMatt> automatic bug reporting, like firefox does, is probably best for that
[01:56:44] <pfred1> well like that but not just bugs
[01:57:00] <pfred1> why not what works too? and what works best even
[01:57:19] <MattyMatt> an AI asking subjective questions would be good
[01:57:33] <pfred1> I mean collecting bugs is all well and good but in the end isn't what we all really want is what works the best?
[01:58:02] <MattyMatt> just complain to your PC that an app lacks a feature, and the PC writes an email to the author's PC
[01:59:10] <MattyMatt> most bugtrackers have feature requests too, but most people bitch to peers instead of writing coherent reports
[01:59:33] <MattyMatt> like we are doing now, about the bug reporting tools themselves :)
[01:59:42] <pfred1> this is different than feature requests it is the features themselves
[01:59:49] <pfred1> more of a put up or shut up
[02:00:01] <pfred1> but you can look I guess for what you want
[02:00:30] <pfred1> because yes too much energy is wasted with bitching
[02:00:37] <MattyMatt> yep, invent a better mousetrap, and it'll get on a distro
[02:00:39] <pfred1> also by duplicated effort
[02:01:03] <MattyMatt> fair competition
[02:01:06] <pfred1> like I used to live in #linux
[02:01:20] <pfred1> and I'd see the same newbie questions over and over and over
[02:01:52] <MattyMatt> that's how I'd train my AI. leave it on IRC for a year looking for patterns
[02:01:53] <pfred1> if they could just get configs that just worked everybody could have moved on
[02:02:17] <pfred1> I guess things are different now though
[02:02:24] <pfred1> Ubuntu rocks setting a system up
[02:02:34] <MattyMatt> NV have reintroduced a bug that xorg eliminated years ago
[02:03:03] <pfred1> could be a feature
[02:03:25] <MattyMatt> nope. shift 3 = 3 is not a feature of a UK keyb
[02:04:21] <MattyMatt> I could probably find the table in the nv blob with a hew editor
[02:04:28] <MattyMatt> hex
[02:04:37] <pfred1> hew the hex!
[02:06:37] <MattyMatt> I gotta get a new driver anyway, maybe nv have fixed it. I got this version specifically for cuda, but they do openCL now too
[02:08:58] <MattyMatt> I never did a jot of cuda, and it'll be obsolete once CL takes hold
[02:10:47] <MattyMatt> the hd3200 on my mobo is apparently not quite enough to use AMDs Stream compiler
[02:11:02] <MattyMatt> which is a shame, as it's why I got the mobo
[02:11:02] <pfred1> thats lame
[02:11:44] <MattyMatt> but AMD's only CL driver so far is cpu only. amd64
[02:12:02] <MattyMatt> I got an X2 :)
[02:12:46] <MattyMatt> and X6 & X8 are nearly here. we'll see some useful CL apps very quickly
[02:13:20] <MattyMatt> Intel are depending on it for Larrabee
[02:14:21] <MattyMatt> It's like C too, but with a few extras for parallel logic
[02:14:42] <MattyMatt> might as well be VHDL :)
[02:31:22] <MattyMatt> hmm 24 quid for my dremel with flexible shaft
[02:31:28] <ds3> a
[02:31:55] <MattyMatt> need to spend 75 to get free delivery tho
[02:32:11] <MattyMatt> so 3 of them, and a catalogue, please :)
[02:32:38] <MattyMatt> make my headchanger now
[02:35:46] <MattyMatt> I don't need a fexible shaft, I need a clamp and a tiny bed & crossslide, for grinding hss bits
[02:36:38] <MattyMatt> that's probably a waste of these tiny grindstones tho
[02:36:54] <MattyMatt> hss bits are cheap, in popular sizes
[02:37:41] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[02:42:49] <pfred1> I have a Foredom flexshaft tool
[02:43:15] <pfred1> bought it for $20 at a garage sale with a nice box of bits
[02:43:26] <MattyMatt> i have big hands. I like the tool as it is freehand
[02:43:47] <pfred1> foredom tool much more durable run all day
[02:44:06] <MattyMatt> I bet putting those down can be awkward sometimes
[02:44:16] <pfred1> mine hangs
[02:44:19] <MattyMatt> you'd need a kill switch by your knee
[02:44:26] <pfred1> foot pedal
[02:44:33] <MattyMatt> cool
[02:44:38] <pfred1> :)
[02:44:48] <pfred1> yeah its like a $400 tool
[02:45:03] <pfred1> some of the bits i got with it are like $20 a pop
[02:45:26] <pfred1> structured tooth tungsten carbide jobbies
[02:45:39] <MattyMatt> nice
[02:45:40] <pfred1> they're hideously expensive
[02:46:01] <MattyMatt> got a collet to use them in your mill?
[02:46:06] <pfred1> heck the organizer box had a price sticker on it of $11.98
[02:46:20] <pfred1> yes but I don't
[02:46:28] <pfred1> I use regular endmills
[02:46:58] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[02:47:09] <MattyMatt> yeah I'll get them in packs of 5. I expect to get through some
[02:47:18] <pfred1> endmills?
[02:47:26] <MattyMatt> yep
[02:47:37] <pfred1> nah they last a while if you use them right
[02:47:48] <MattyMatt> and pointy ones, and maybe the odd ball one
[02:47:59] <pfred1> mace
[02:48:07] <pfred1> ball end
[02:48:17] <pfred1> I want a dovetail cutter
[02:48:18] <MattyMatt> gotcha :)
[02:48:36] <pfred1> and a slotter
[02:48:49] <MattyMatt> for T slots?
[02:48:53] <pfred1> yeah
[02:49:05] <MattyMatt> that would be nice
[02:49:15] <pfred1> need a dovetail cutter more though
[02:49:30] <pfred1> can always drill and tap holes
[02:50:16] <pfred1> I guess I could make T slide tables if I had the slotter
[02:51:28] <pfred1> one of these days
[03:10:45] <MattyMatt> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/OMI-OPTICAL-ROTARY-TABLE-16-DIA-MILLING-ENGINEERING_W0QQitemZ330376080669
[03:11:07] <MattyMatt> that's relisted. it would crush my puny wooden table, but it would just fit
[03:12:50] <pfred1> MattyMatt I could use a rotary table
[03:12:55] <MattyMatt> if I had cash to waste I'd get it to start a polar machine
[03:13:15] <pfred1> MattyMatt biggest I could use would be an 8" thought
[03:13:26] <MattyMatt> there's a 24" here too :)
[03:19:10] <MattyMatt> I found a 60deg x 3/8" dovetail I presume you want 45deg?
[03:20:14] <GonMD> Hey Guys. Does anyone here have some expertise on the Gecko 540 ? I having a bit of trouble with the Y axis not responding while setting up my conf.
[03:20:16] <pfred1> MattyMatt 60s are OK what face size?
[03:21:11] <pfred1> GonMD marriss hangs out on CNCZone
[03:21:30] <GonMD> thanks.
[03:21:39] <MattyMatt> http://stores.shop.ebay.co.uk/RDGTOOLS-ON-LINE_MILLING-CUTTERS_W0
[03:21:54] <MattyMatt> dunno if that's enough URL
[03:22:13] <pfred1> 0 results found for W0
[03:22:30] <pfred1> sounds like a line from the matrix
[03:22:33] <pfred1> Woah
[03:23:03] <MattyMatt> http://stores.shop.ebay.co.uk/RDGTOOLS-ON-LINE_MILLING-CUTTERS_W0QQ_fsubZ929818QQ_sidZ81740245QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em322
[03:24:17] <pfred1> MattyMatt yeah they're all pretty dinky
[03:24:29] <MattyMatt> 1" is the biggest
[03:25:34] <MattyMatt> 1/2" is the cheapest. guess how deep my dovetails would be? :)
[03:25:38] <pfred1> MattyMatt I buy my tools at flea markets and sales
[03:26:15] <pfred1> and dovetail cutters well they don't come up very often
[03:26:37] <pfred1> but you'd be suprised what else does!
[03:26:41] <MattyMatt> I'd want a nice new one for cutting slides
[03:27:04] <pfred1> long as it isn't messed up old ones work too
[03:27:17] <pfred1> I buy cutters with the goo on them still
[03:27:31] <pfred1> whatever that brown goo is that is on new cutters
[03:27:55] <pfred1> hardened cosmoline?
[03:27:58] <pfred1> I donno
[03:28:06] <MattyMatt> preserving oil
[03:28:07] <pfred1> I know its tough to get off!
[03:28:14] <pfred1> nah this stuff is like wax
[03:28:18] <pfred1> its solid
[03:29:01] <GonMD> naptha disolves it pretty well. i used to work in a machine shop, and i know the stuff your talking about
[03:29:11] <pfred1> GonMD heh
[03:29:21] <pfred1> its goo
[03:29:45] <pfred1> but yeah next time I clean one I'll try some naptha on it
[03:30:04] <pfred1> usually i just wire wheel it off
[03:30:48] <pfred1> yeah at a flea market i may get a nice US cutter for a buck
[03:31:08] <pfred1> cash and carry
[03:47:09] <GonMD> gah. this stupid Y axis thing is making me irritated. i checked to see if it was the cables. cables are fine. motors are fine. i doubt its emc2
[03:47:38] <pfred1> GonMD did you swap the drive?
[03:48:27] <GonMD> not yet. the motor couplers are so snug, im afraid ill destroy them trying to take them off
[03:48:45] <pfred1> yeah don't break anything
[03:48:45] <GonMD> but i ran all the motors prior to installing them into the bed and they all worked fine
[03:49:15] <pfred1> yeah thats why I suggested swapping the drive that'd nail it down if problem followed drive
[03:49:22] <pfred1> to another axis
[03:49:58] <GonMD> ya know what though, i could uncouple it on the lead screw side and not worry about damaging the coupler
[03:50:08] <GonMD> ill do that. its just a pita to do
[03:50:20] <pfred1> I didn't say tit'd be fun
[03:50:58] <GonMD> troubleshooting never is
[03:50:58] <pfred1> ust seems like the one thing to do that'd best narrow the problem down
[03:51:26] <pfred1> because if problem doesn't follow drive drive OK and its something else
[03:51:50] <GonMD> be back in 30min
[03:52:00] <pfred1> good luck hope it something easy
[03:52:15] <pfred1> whatever really wrong
[04:09:11] <pfred1> ha ha ha! http://cgi.ebay.com/24-v-Power-Supply-Kit-gr8-for-CNC-stepper-motor-driver_W0QQitemZ330267357590QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4ce577f196
[04:12:06] <GonMD> good news
[04:12:10] <GonMD> motor is good
[04:12:11] <pfred1> yes?
[04:12:20] <GonMD> bad news. i think the gecko might be having issues
[04:12:31] <pfred1> problem followed drive?
[04:12:55] <GonMD> plugged in the Y motor and cable to X axis and it works fine
[04:13:30] <GonMD> the y axis did work on the Y plug for about 30 seconds earlier today then just stopped
[05:51:51] <jmelson> Hello, all!
[05:53:24] <jmelson> I'm trying to install the latest EMC, and tried the instructions in the wiki. First thing is to install git, and the git-gui comes up "not found". Anybody know why? The other two parts, git-core and gitk worked fine.
[08:48:57] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[09:45:48] <sys2> when i stop a program, why doesnt the mill go back to the start position at stop ? :)
[09:45:56] <sys2> or can i make it do that in some way? .. go back to 0 0 0
[09:50:53] <toastydeath> look up g28
[09:51:10] <toastydeath> that will send all your axes home.
[09:52:20] <sys2> but why isnt there a button in the gui to do that? :)
[09:52:32] <sys2> shoulnt that be quite usefull for many ? :)
[09:53:42] <micges_work> you can add button
[09:54:05] <sys2> hmm, how? :)
[09:54:16] <micges_work> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//hal_pyvcp.html
[10:30:35] <piasdom_> g'mornin all
[10:30:47] <micges_work> hi
[11:16:33] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[11:20:13] <piasdom_> where do i set the home location for g28 ?
[11:20:53] <alex_joni> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode_main.html#sub:G28,-G30:-Return
[11:21:06] <piasdom_> alex_joni; thanks
[11:44:10] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[11:48:35] <piasdom_> ok...so how do i define the parameters ?
[11:53:56] <micges_work> in *.var file you must add proper lines
[11:55:44] <micges_work> in you configuration directory there is *.var file
[12:09:01] <piasdom_> thanks
[12:29:52] <HackMax> gmornin ppl I have a bit of a problem I was wondering if anyone here could help me with?
[12:32:37] <HackMax> i D/L'd the 8.04 version cd and tried every which way to get the graphics screen unscrambled on my dell 1545 laptop
[12:35:10] <HackMax> i don't plan on running a machine off this pc but i do intend to use it to test cnc code i've written
[12:38:02] <micges_work> HackMax: once again what is wrong with your graphics?
[12:38:44] <Valen> hmm thinking of ye olde brushless hobby motor for mill spindle drive ;->
[12:38:58] <Valen> how would I go about getting a servo drive out of mesa ;->
[12:39:17] <Valen> (whilst keeping 20Khz PWM on the other axies)
[12:40:51] <HackMax> the screen is all scrambled when i get to the login
[12:41:04] <Valen> what sort of scrambled?
[12:42:22] <HackMax> hmmm wish i could show you but its like the horizontal timing is off
[12:42:38] <Valen> so its not just static but all over the place?
[12:42:43] <HackMax> no
[12:44:17] <HackMax> i d/l'd the latest ubuntu and it works fine
[12:45:00] <Valen> what type of monitor is it?
[12:46:01] <HackMax> it's a widescreen
[12:46:49] <Valen> LCD then?
[12:46:54] <HackMax> yeah
[12:46:57] <HackMax> laptop
[12:47:00] <Valen> tried pressing the "auto" button on it?
[12:47:01] <Valen> oh
[12:47:05] <Valen> hmm thats odd then
[12:47:28] <Valen> laptops are generally not reccomended to run EMC on btw
[12:48:19] <HackMax> yeah i know i was just going to use it to test code before i take it out to the shop and use it
[12:49:30] <Valen> If its for mucking about and running sim only then there are experimental builds of emc against 9.10
[12:49:48] <Valen> I know its not solving the problem but ey it might be easier lol
[12:50:23] <HackMax> super! can you help me get it?
[12:50:39] <Valen> ummm I dunno lol
[12:50:44] <HackMax> LOL
[12:51:17] <Valen> how much linux experience do you have?
[12:51:20] <micges_work> HackMax: try passing kernel paramter 'vga=ask'
[12:51:51] <micges_work> it should ask about resolution and such during boot
[12:52:01] <HackMax> god not much at all I'm a windows vb programmer
[12:52:19] <Valen> thats ok, its how I started out too ;->
[12:52:37] <HackMax> :)
[12:52:42] <Valen> vb6 though, not this crappy .net stuff they have now
[12:52:50] <Valen> I went to python when that came out lol
[12:53:45] <micges_work> HackMax: on boot screen when language selection is you can press some key to show boot paramters, then add vga=ask at the end of that line and press enter
[12:53:49] <Valen> yeah do what micges said, its a simple test
[12:54:35] <HackMax> ok
[12:58:04] <HackMax> hmmm cant get the function keys to even work i'm going to try another keyboard
[13:01:03] <HackMax> ok i'm trying safe graphics first didnt realize that was there
[13:04:43] <HackMax> hmmm ok that works
[13:05:04] <Valen> what video card is in the laptop?
[13:05:14] <HackMax> so now i will try your help micges thanks
[13:05:39] <HackMax> intel 945 i think
[13:06:06] <HackMax> nothing fancy
[13:06:29] <Valen> ahh, on older versions of ubuntu there was some paticular issue with intel 945 stuff
[13:07:25] <HackMax> maybe i need to download a new version of the cd?
[13:07:45] <Valen> misses the point of using the emc cd + distro thing ;->
[13:08:06] <HackMax> I thought i just got this a short time ago
[13:08:28] <Valen> yeah, emc is based on the long term support releases of ubuntu
[13:08:38] <Valen> they dont come out as often as their other releases
[13:08:45] <Valen> emc is based on 8.04 I believe
[13:09:00] <Valen> they are up to 9.10 with the next release being 10.04 I think
[13:10:14] <HackMax> yeah i would like to use a newer version of ubuntu
[13:11:31] <christel> [Global Notice] Hi all, we're having some problems with services right this moment -- we're looking into it. Apologies for the inconvenience.
[13:11:41] <mozmck> HackMax, you will either have to compile everything yourself (including a new kernel and rtai), or there are some experimental packages for 9.10 at www.linuxcnc.com/experimental/Karmic
[13:12:17] <Valen> It sounds like he only wants sim so he shouldn't need to compile any of the RTAI stuff
[13:12:20] <Valen> just emc
[13:13:01] <mozmck> ack! www.linuxcnc.org/experimental/Karmic is the right link.
[13:13:08] <mozmck> ah, ok.
[13:13:46] <Valen> yeah a Karmic install and an emc compile if that 8.04 doesn't work for you
[13:14:45] <HackMax> kewl i will keep that in mind its added to my favorites
[13:14:51] <services.> Services are presently running in debug mode, attached to a console. You should take extra caution when utilizing your services passwords.
[13:16:20] <piasdom_> in the var file....5161 = X...5162 = Y ....5163 = Z ?
[13:22:25] <jthornton_> piasdom_: I think so
[13:23:02] <jepler> piasdom_: G28.1 stores the current absolute position into parameters 5161-5166. http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode_main.html#sub:G28,-G30:-Return
[13:23:05] <jthornton_> use G28.1 to store the current position for G28
[13:26:16] <piasdom_> jthornton;thanks
[13:26:38] <piasdom_> jepler; didn't see you there.....Thanks
[13:27:51] <piasdom_> so i would write g28.1 z.1, then next line g2 ?8
[13:28:09] <piasdom_> *g28
[13:28:43] <alex_joni> G28.1 stores the current absolute position into parameters 5161-5166.
[13:28:57] <alex_joni> that means that you go to some location: G0 X1 Y2 Z3
[13:29:01] <alex_joni> G28.1
[13:29:04] <piasdom_> i know....but HOW do i use it ?
[13:29:09] <alex_joni> and X=1, Y=2, Z=3 get stored
[13:29:24] <alex_joni> then in your program when you enter G28 it will go to X=1,Y=2, Z=3
[13:29:29] <alex_joni> ...
[13:29:31] <alex_joni> G28
[13:29:31] <alex_joni> ...
[13:29:33] <piasdom_> ok thanks
[14:18:58] <piasdom_> what file do i edit to add buttons to axis gui ?
[14:40:52] <piasdom_> is that a stupid question or not enough info?
[14:43:21] <cradek> if you think it's not enough information, give more
[14:44:33] <piasdom_> i don't know....trying to learn some more about emc....
[14:45:13] <piasdom_> so i'm going to try editing guis'
[14:45:55] <piasdom_> but don't know a thing about it :)
[14:46:03] <cradek> what specifically are you trying to learn? that sounds like a rough place to start.
[14:46:44] <piasdom_> i want to add an abort button in axis
[14:46:57] <gweepprefect> so i've got some questions after having run my first large part with EMC over the weekend, mostly relating to handling tool changes.
[14:47:06] <cradek> in theory you could do that using pyvcp and halui
[14:48:01] <piasdom_> in mini, there's an abort button i hit...then i can go higher or lower on my file and start there
[14:48:17] <piasdom_> don't know where either are
[14:48:36] <cradek> where either what are?
[14:48:57] <cradek> what are you actually trying to do?
[14:49:05] <piasdom_> credek: pyvcp or halui
[14:49:16] <piasdom_> credek: trying to add a button
[14:49:40] <piasdom_> or icon or whatever ya'll call it :)
[14:49:50] <gweepprefect> so i don't have any automatic tool changing on my machine yet.. so to do a tool change is manual as you'd expect.. raise the head, loosen the drawbar, maybe take out the collet entirely, put in new tool, re-zero Z, carry on.
[14:51:22] <gweepprefect> i made my first larger part in CAM the other day and ran it, but i had trouble with tool changes.. it (presumably the CAM) inserted pauses for the tool changes, but i suspect a mistake in my programming is what left the tool at Z0.
[14:52:03] <gweepprefect> but, EMC was in a "paused" mode where all of the stuff was grayed out - i had no opportunity for manual control without stopping the program and raising the head, doing my tool change, re-zeroing, then re-running the program from a later point.
[14:52:19] <gweepprefect> i can't help but think i'm missing something and i'm doing it the wrong way
[14:52:20] <cradek> gweepprefect: yes I think that's exactly what you have to do
[14:52:44] <cradek> no, tool changes without repeatable tool lengths kind of suck.
[14:53:05] <cradek> you have to jog the machine around to zero it, so you have to abort the program to do that
[14:53:21] <cradek> but, once you're done, you can just restart it after the line with the tool change.
[14:53:51] <cradek> some people even put each tool's work in its own gcode file, so they don't have to find restart points
[14:54:29] <gweepprefect> seems like it should be possible to make that less painful... i mean, nothing eases the pain of having to do the tool change itself, but rather than having to break out of the program and restart it, why not remember X,Y,Z, allow you to go do your tool change wherever you need with manual jogs, allow the rezero, then bring it back where it was?
[14:55:44] <gweepprefect> it was mostly fine for me, but i had it drag the tool across my workpiece during my tool changes, which kind of sucked... but it was just a test piece.
[14:56:16] <gweepprefect> well, not during - immediately after resuming. apparently i need to more carefully check what it's doing with Z
[14:56:28] <cradek> what do you mean had it drag the tool? I think you are saying you had the tool in the wrong place when you started the program, or you restarted in a bad place
[14:57:13] <gweepprefect> i don't know for sure which. it asked for the tool change after stopping the last operation for the previous tool - before moving to the first position for the next tool.
[14:57:17] <cradek> this kind of thing is exactly why we're hesitant to do what you say - you have to guess what the user wants
[14:57:30] <gweepprefect> yeah, thinking about it a bit more i see what your concerns would be
[14:57:40] <cradek> "then bring it back where it was" is not a task you want to guess how to do safely
[14:57:58] <gweepprefect> yeah.. i was thinking in very limited scope for what i happened to be doing, which was working on a faceplate
[14:58:17] <gweepprefect> which would be trivial, but any part that isn't flat could really get you in trouble
[14:58:32] <cradek> in my opinion, it's better to do exactly what the user says [execute the gcode he specified, when he says to], so he can do his task safely
[14:58:49] <cradek> yeah there are always going to be trouble cases
[14:59:59] <cradek> I like to build "safe restart points" into my gcode programs. these are places where it's safe to start the program, and all needed commands (spindle and coolant on, go up all the way, then over, then down, etc) are there
[15:00:20] <cradek> I mark them with N words, and I know N words always mean it's safe to start there
[15:00:33] <cradek> I definitely put them at every tool change - sounds like you would too
[15:02:11] <gweepprefect> so let's say i switched to a repeatable Z tool holding system like tormach (even if manually operated).. is there a table of Z offsets stored by tool number in EMC? would it then just be a matter of programming in a good Z retract before the tool change command so i could simply swap in the new tool and resume?
[15:03:09] <cradek> yes
[15:03:28] <cradek> you number and measure each tool, and put the tool lengths in the tool table.
[15:03:57] <gweepprefect> ok.. that was my understanding, seems like much less hassle.. though at quite a cost.
[15:03:58] <cradek> then when your program loads a tool (T2 M6) you also execute G43 and it will offset by the tool length
[15:04:14] <cradek> I think the tormach system is a great answer for an R8 machine
[15:04:18] <christel> [Global Notice] Hi all, Sorry for the services flapping, I think I have pinpointed the relevant module but not the actual crash (gdb with trace leaves me with 25K lines to look through!) -- to cause less disruptance I have unloaded the affected module, there will be no noticeable changes for end users, only staff usage of services. Apologies for the inconvenience and have a good day.
[15:04:23] <gweepprefect> yeah, it's very attractive
[15:04:41] <gweepprefect> it's not unaffordable, just a fair chunk of money to get outfitted
[15:04:47] <cradek> you'll never go back once you have quick easy tool changes :-)
[15:04:58] <gweepprefect> though truth be told i can probably get away with a handful of holders, it's not like i'm a production shop
[15:05:14] <cradek> is it a knee mill?
[15:05:26] <MattyMatt> easier to change the dremel than bit in the collet on one
[15:05:35] <gweepprefect> no, mini.. X3
[15:05:35] <MattyMatt> so headchanger is my plan
[15:05:54] <cradek> MattyMatt: heh, funny
[15:06:41] <cradek> gweepprefect: you could also set up a tool length measuring switch. after the tool change, the gcode program would make the machine go poke the switch with the new tool, and you'd use that as your length offset.
[15:06:51] <gweepprefect> as they say, it's a lot of metal for the money.. and a nice machine to learn on
[15:06:52] <cradek> I've done this on a small pcb-making machine
[15:07:14] <cradek> there is an example gcode program that uses this scheme in the distribution
[15:07:36] <gweepprefect> yeah, i was wondering about doing something like that.. how is that handled in EMC? some sort of sub-scripting that gets run that sits aside of your main gcode, or is it part of your gcode?
[15:07:59] <cradek> I just put it in the gcode, since I was using a program to generate the gcode anyway.
[15:08:09] <cradek> if you are using cam, you'd just put it in your postprocessor
[15:08:31] <gweepprefect> so basically it'd be like some big macro it inserts during toolchanges
[15:08:45] <cradek> in my opinion, the simpler the gcode is [straight flow, no looping or subroutines], the easier it is to handle, especially if you're doing stuff like restarting in the middle.
[15:09:30] <gweepprefect> yeah.. understood. it's a little mind bending how oldschool gcode is, and that it hasn't been supplanted by something a little more modern and structured.
[15:09:40] <gweepprefect> granted, its simplicity is a benefit too.
[15:10:12] <MattyMatt> I'm gonna call them "cuts" rather than "programs" when training (artist) people to use this
[15:10:15] <cradek> gweepprefect: yeah, we have stuff like looping now, but how do you restart if you're a loop?
[15:10:36] <gweepprefect> yeah.. that would be a good case for splitting stuff out to separate files
[15:10:42] <cradek> cnc is all about "make one cut here now"
[15:11:03] <cradek> sometimes I wish it was more about "cut this surface now" but it just isn't
[15:11:23] <gweepprefect> i'm still trying to wrap my head around where the division of responsibilities lies between the various pieces of software. i admit a year ago when i started thinking about this, i had a very different idea of the process.
[15:13:20] <gweepprefect> i'm not an ME by training (I'm a software engineer and an EE), so I was never really aware of what went on beyond CAD/solid modeling. Like anything you don't know that is complex, it sort of seems like "some magic happened" and out came your part.
[15:13:46] <cradek> yeah a lot of beginners expect to give the machine a solid model, and out it spits the part
[15:13:46] <MattyMatt> that's reprap :)
[15:14:16] <cradek> they don't realize that what you need in there somewhere is called a machinist
[15:14:41] <gweepprefect> yeah.. i definitely have newfound respect. it's been fun to scratch the surface of that body of knowledge.
[15:14:42] <MattyMatt> some of that is machinists protecting their territory too
[15:14:51] <cradek> they never think - how the heck am I even going to hold that part while it's cut?
[15:15:01] <gweepprefect> yeah! fixturing blows my mind.
[15:16:13] <Valen> heck even cutting flat plate is more complex than you think
[15:16:15] <cradek> I recently cut a bunch of squares out of aluminum sheet. you wouldn't think that would be hard, would you - but how to do it? you've got to hold the square. but if you're holding it from above, you can't cut all the way around it.
[15:16:19] <gweepprefect> my grandfather was a master machinist, but i was too young to really have gotten any of this knowledge from him before he passed away.. it's been cool to learn a little of it and realize just how much more there is to learn.
[15:16:39] <Valen> when you cut the circle out the bit that is free'd then procedes to jam the mill and snap it ;->
[15:16:51] <cradek> Valen: exactly
[15:16:54] <gweepprefect> cradek: yep, i was doing mucht he same thing, making a faceplate for equipment, and parting it out of a larger piece of material
[15:17:10] <gweepprefect> i've had some luck using double sided tape
[15:17:29] <MattyMatt> bed of nails & plasma, is the modern way
[15:17:53] <gweepprefect> i didn't put up any video of the faceplate work yet, but i did do some smaller things using double sided tape the other day.. seems to work well enough for light cuts in plastic: http://www.tangentaudio.com/?p=193
[15:17:54] <cradek> Valen: even for that - anyone can draw a circle in cad, and any cam software can generate a G3 command from it, but somehow you still need a machinist
[15:18:17] <Valen> or somebody guessing like a bitch ;->
[15:18:20] <Valen> AKA us lol
[15:18:29] <cradek> ha
[15:19:30] <cradek> then why not make him write the G3 command - who needs all that software?
[15:20:02] <Valen> you can get bigass magnetic hold downs to do that kind of thing
[15:20:32] <cradek> yeah mag chucks and vacuum tables sometimes work
[15:20:35] <MattyMatt> at my end of things, Scotch Spraymount is the stuff
[15:20:57] <MattyMatt> commercial artists understand that stuff
[15:21:14] <gweepprefect> i love that stuff, though i've never used it for CNC stuff
[15:21:41] <MattyMatt> best thing for all flatwork apparently, like pcb
[15:21:56] <MattyMatt> holds down all the offcuts
[15:22:04] <gweepprefect> makes sense
[15:23:31] <MattyMatt> I could make a steerable X-acto (or S&M scalpel in UK) and an artist would know what to do with that too
[15:23:45] <Valen> Might be worth it even for light aluminium stuff
[15:24:13] <MattyMatt> yeah panels too, even thin wood
[15:24:14] <piasdom_> emc/usr_intf/halui.cc 1971: iniLoad error .... .... i get this error when i run halui in terminal....what am i doing wrong ?
[15:24:18] <Valen> I'm looking at this http://www.recumbents.com/WISIL/shumaker/CNC1.jpg
[15:24:19] <gweepprefect> i'd heard people were actually milling solder paste stencils out of thin brass sheet, i bet it'd work on that
[15:24:20] <MattyMatt> spraymount is strong
[15:24:32] <Valen> and being quite interested on our mill
[15:24:53] <Valen> all the cutters these days seem to run at 6000RPM plus even for a largeish end mill
[15:25:23] <Valen> I also happen to have a 3Kw outrunner (next size or 2 up from that one) and the controller for it sitting around as well
[15:25:59] <gweepprefect> i need a better spindle on my machine.. :P
[15:26:35] <Valen> I'm thinking that might be the time to upgrade that too lol
[15:26:52] <MattyMatt> is that yellow motor your spindle motor?
[15:26:59] <gweepprefect> 2000RPM isn't doing it for me
[15:27:06] <MattyMatt> or is that for steering?
[15:27:36] <MattyMatt> with belt drive you have the option of upgrading just the motor
[15:29:51] <Valen> Its not my machine
[15:29:59] <Valen> its the spindle motor for that guys machine
[15:30:15] <Valen> that little motor *is* the upgrade ;-> its good for ~3Kw or so
[15:30:51] <MattyMatt> I thought V belts were used for that usually
[15:31:12] <Valen> on the cheap import crap lol
[15:31:21] <Valen> most people seem to use timing belts on conversions
[15:31:32] <MattyMatt> I thought they were prefered, for smoothing out motor fluctuations
[15:32:13] <Valen> If you mean slipping that would kinda suck, means you can't do cool stuff like ridgid tapping
[15:32:25] <MattyMatt> and then you make the spindle bearings and collet heavier than the motor rotor
[15:33:09] <Valen> http://stores.shop.ebay.com.au/linearmotionbearings used to have high speed spindles with VFDs for ~$400-500 or so
[15:33:20] <MattyMatt> ah yeah, that's one way a mill differs from a drill
[15:33:34] <MattyMatt> ^the rigid tapping
[15:33:45] <Valen> I think you just have a smoother motor drive lol
[15:34:43] <MattyMatt> yeah a toothed belt is a nice compromise between accurate and smooth
[15:35:17] <Valen> When we get the mill working the first things we are going to be making are direct drive spindles
[15:35:30] <Valen> high speed and with enough torque for low speed stuff too
[15:36:26] <Valen> hmm Should be able to push ours up to ~10k RPM
[15:36:37] <Valen> that should be enough to get things started, (our outrunner that is)
[15:36:44] <MattyMatt> mine won't go below 11krpm
[15:37:03] <Valen> So you don't have an 80mm facing cutter then ;->
[15:37:04] <MattyMatt> I need pulleys to gear it down >:)
[15:37:28] <MattyMatt> not unless it fits in an 1/8" collet
[15:37:46] <Valen> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=5139&Product_Name=Turnigy_80-100-A_180Kv_Brushless_Outrunner_%28eq:_70-55%29
[15:37:57] <Valen> one of those is what i'd like to be using ;->
[15:38:10] <Valen> although might wind it for higher speed
[15:38:11] <piasdom_> piasdom_ is now known as piasdom
[15:38:14] <Valen> 7Kw for the win
[15:41:26] <MattyMatt> nice for its size
[15:41:37] <Valen> fairly cheap too
[15:42:10] <MattyMatt> but the 3kW motor on my table saw (very cheap) could bolt on replace that, if you stick to belt rive
[15:43:07] <Valen> bet it weighs more than 2kg,cost more than $140 and needed more than a $100 controller to drive it though ;->
[15:44:44] <MattyMatt> what's that cost? your favourite stepper combo?
[15:44:59] <Valen> thats for that motor I linked to
[15:46:18] <MattyMatt> ah right. yeah $149 looks resonable, although a vacuum cleaner has nearly as good, for free
[15:46:37] <Valen> 7kw? pretty beefy vaccume cleaner
[15:46:48] <Valen> then you need a variable frequency drive for it
[15:47:03] <MattyMatt> yeah
[15:47:28] <MattyMatt> or lots of pulleys for the belts :)
[15:47:47] <Valen> that wont let EMC drive the speed though :-<
[15:48:32] <MattyMatt> what's the gcode for "ask monkey"?
[15:48:44] <Valen> M2
[15:48:47] <MattyMatt> I suppose that's any pause :)
[15:50:19] <MattyMatt> planetary gearboxes with clutches would let you stay in torque range automatically, even at low spindle speeds
[15:51:13] <MattyMatt> or someone has to invent a motor with both stepper and servo functions
[15:52:22] <MattyMatt> 400 div commutator, and maybe you could use the same coil
[15:53:46] <Valen> thats how our motor is going to work we hope ;->
[15:55:31] <MattyMatt> mine has electronic speed control. I was hoping for a midget variac
[15:56:33] <MattyMatt> with a nema17 stepper, that would be reliable as hell
[15:58:50] <Valen> our one for spindle drive and or rotary table applications is about 150mm diamiter and 100mm long
[15:58:53] <Valen> 90 poles
[15:58:59] <Valen> water cooled
[16:09:37] <MattyMatt> neat. yeah that's the standard size you can buy surplus
[16:42:59] <MattyMatt> http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80731612
[16:44:28] <gweepprefect> holy crap, that's impressive
[16:46:03] <MattyMatt> if they move that fast, they can learn that fast. the age of flesh is nigh over, my friends
[16:46:19] <gweepprefect> i, for one, welcome our new fast-moving robotic hand overlords.
[16:46:46] <MattyMatt> we should keep the law about flashing amber lights and 4mph in pedestrian zones
[16:47:00] <MattyMatt> oi, terminator, noooo!
[16:48:19] <MattyMatt> momma manages to dominate me, even tho she's physically puny. we all need to develop a napolean complex
[16:55:47] <alex_joni> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/16/tower_of_power/
[16:55:53] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: ^^
[18:29:31] <MattyMatt> aw missed a leadscrew+nut off a milling machine on ebay
[18:31:38] <issy> hi all
[18:33:40] <MattyMatt> the vultures are gathering http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110455957803&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
[18:35:09] <MattyMatt> if it was still 100q, I wouldn't have mentioned it :)
[19:22:42] <awallin> how much would you pay for this half-way complete project http://www.loisteputki.liitin.net/TLP/sorvi/Kuva046.jpg ??
[19:23:46] <MattyMatt> hard to say without measuring it. why was it abandoned?
[19:23:48] <awallin> http://www.loisteputki.liitin.net/TLP/sorvimyytavana.jpg
[19:23:59] <awallin> http://www.loisteputki.liitin.net/TLP/sorvimyytavana4.jpg
[19:24:13] <MattyMatt> it looks like it'd be a $4000 machine finished
[19:24:24] <Jymmm> awallin: what is the beige base? steel?
[19:24:29] <awallin> the guy started his own company and bought a 1990 professional cnc machine
[19:24:38] <awallin> the base is steel, painted I guess
[19:24:58] <MattyMatt> you always have to ask why they gave up and bought one ;)
[19:25:29] <awallin> he is asking 1300euros and I calculated it's going to take around 3000euros to fit it out with servos, servodrives, a spindlemotor, a vfd, emc2 computer. jog-pendant etc.
[19:25:39] <awallin> MattyMatt: sure, I'm going to see it tomorrow
[19:26:02] <awallin> oh and the 8position ATC is only half way done...
[19:26:16] <awallin> http://www.loisteputki.liitin.net/TLP/sorvimyytavana3.jpg
[19:26:28] <awallin> http://www.loisteputki.liitin.net/TLP/sorvimyytavana2.jpg
[19:27:02] <awallin> there are steppers on the X and Z axes, but I would go with servos
[19:30:51] <MattyMatt> I'd see what cuts looked like with steppers before spending extra
[19:31:29] <awallin> mmhm, I think I had enough of steppers with the mill...
[19:31:59] <awallin> sort of would like to buy this project but I know there is not going to be a ton of time/money to spend on it.,,,,
[19:32:58] <MattyMatt> it's a lot of metal, but if you got it to store, you might see a cheap old machine later
[19:34:17] <MattyMatt> that one I posted before, still #227
[19:35:09] <MattyMatt> I wish I had a workshop and a forklift truck
[19:35:17] <MattyMatt> and 227gbp
[19:35:24] <awallin> sorry, not picking anything up from Wiltshire/UK :)
[19:35:53] <pjm> LOL, whats in wiltshire, its only close to me!
[19:36:16] <MattyMatt> if he has a shiny new machine, why doesn't he finish that one and sell it?
[19:36:21] <awallin> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110455957803
[19:36:32] <awallin> pjm: check that ebay link
[19:36:42] <pjm> ah yes, thanks
[19:36:54] <pjm> i think it would be the end of me if i turned up here with that
[19:36:59] <pjm> the missus wouldnt stand for it
[19:37:06] <awallin> MattyMatt: yeah, I will have to talk to they guy tomorrow. Not sure if the business really took off or what happened
[19:37:50] <MattyMatt> maybe he wants you to pay him to finish the spindle pulleys etc
[19:38:53] <MattyMatt> or maybe he's sick of the sight of it, in his living room :)
[19:55:34] <Jymmm> http://filebin.ca/wfoapj/DumbBlonde.wmv
[20:09:36] <JT-Work> it looks like the Hardinge has Heidenhain encoders on X Z and the spindle
[20:24:08] <motioncontrol> good evening.a question.the lathe configuration fuction with xemc interface ?
[21:58:18] <jt-plasma> I actually think I can move the plasma over and fit the Hardinge in next to it... if it would only stop raining
[21:58:49] <alex_joni> going for the 5 axis?
[21:58:52] <alex_joni> :P
[22:07:29] <jt-plasma> yea I can put a plasma coupling between the two machines
[22:07:44] <jt-plasma> :,
[22:07:51] <jt-plasma> :'
[22:07:57] <alex_joni> tachyion plasma link
[22:08:30] <jt-plasma> with a flux coupling
[22:08:58] <alex_joni> well.. that one can become unstable
[22:09:24] <alex_joni> you need to regulate the positron flow through the capacitors so the flux coupling stays stable
[22:10:44] <jt-plasma> I may put an elunium pu36 explosive space modulator in the collet closer
[22:11:24] <jt-plasma> just to be sure :0
[22:12:04] <jt-plasma> * jt-plasma can't find the smiley that sticks his tongue out :/
[22:12:15] <jt-plasma> :\
[22:12:30] <jt-plasma> :"
[22:12:34] <jt-plasma> :?
[22:12:42] <jt-plasma> :>
[22:12:52] <jt-plasma> :`
[22:12:57] <jt-plasma> :~
[22:13:05] <jt-plasma> :s
[22:13:37] <jt-plasma> * jt-plasma goes back to finding a 8' x 5' space inch by inch
[22:14:43] <alex_joni> try :P
[22:15:20] <jt-plasma> I did try
[22:16:02] <jt-plasma> :-Q
[22:16:04] <jt-plasma> :Q
[22:16:12] <alex_joni> hmm.. my cable company started giving out free internet access
[22:16:21] <alex_joni> jt-plasma: P or b
[22:16:28] <jt-plasma> :P
[22:16:30] <Jymmm> and J
[22:16:32] <jt-plasma> P it is
[22:16:37] <sys2> :J
[22:16:37] <jt-plasma> :J
[22:16:44] <jt-plasma> :b
[22:17:18] <alex_joni> free internet for everyone sure is nice.. it's speed limited though :)
[22:17:25] <alex_joni> 256 down, 64kbps upload
[22:17:33] <jt-plasma> faster than mine I bet
[22:17:44] <Jymmm> good for email
[22:17:53] <alex_joni> and light surfing
[22:18:25] <Jymmm> I'd force my aunt to use a computer if she got free internet, she just turned 82
[22:18:35] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[22:18:42] <tarzan_> alex_joni, company?
[22:18:42] <Jymmm> and refuses to touch one.
[22:18:54] <jt-plasma> I had to put up a 40' tower and pay $23/month plus buy the equipment to get that
[22:19:34] <jt-plasma> * jt-plasma listens to Frank Zappa Dancing Fool :P
[22:19:35] <alex_joni> tarzan_: UPC
[22:20:17] <alex_joni> they only charge a 15$ setup fee
[22:20:35] <jt-plasma> euros?
[22:20:43] <alex_joni> ~10 EURO
[22:21:14] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[22:21:47] <jt-plasma> :P just so I don't forget :P
[23:20:36] <pfred1> time to open up my brthday present now
[23:22:28] <pfred1> when newark Electronics ships stuff to you they do not mess around
[23:23:14] <gweepprefect> i've gotten a couple of ICs from them in a huge box.. totally silly
[23:24:03] <pfred1> gweepprefect maybe they were trying to send you a little hint? Place a bigger order next time!
[23:24:08] <gweepprefect> heh
[23:24:42] <pfred1> but no seriously every item is individually packaged in my order it is going to take me all night to unpack it all
[23:25:20] <pfred1> and I ordered this stuff two days after I placed another order with another place that I haven't seen yet
[23:26:46] <pfred1> * pfred1 fondles his new current sense resistors .... mmmmm .....
[23:27:31] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[23:28:26] <pfred1> all I can say is newark is very professional and on the level
[23:28:51] <andypugh> Aye, they are part of the Farnell group, and both have been in the business for 80 years..
[23:30:58] <pfred1> they running a hot special on these resistors right now too stock up CVWs
[23:35:26] <pfred1> http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/results.jsp?N=500003+1000118&Ntk=gensearch_001&Ntt=CVW&Ntx=&isGoback=false
[23:38:45] <alex_joni> good night all
[23:38:59] <pfred1> nite
[23:51:40] <andypugh> pfred1: http://www.newark.com/vishay-semiconductor/tcut1200/optical-sensor-switch-transmissive/dp/95B4825
[23:52:04] <andypugh> (Though I think both RS and Farnell do even smaller ones)
[23:52:09] <pfred1> andypugh I have a pile of those
[23:52:21] <pfred1> andypugh oh its really small?
[23:52:32] <pfred1> mine aren't too small
[23:52:48] <andypugh> That one is a 4mm cube
[23:53:11] <pfred1> andypugh yeah as I age like things a little bigger :)
[23:53:26] <pfred1> that small stuff just getting smaller and smaller on me!
[23:54:13] <andypugh> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=6165692
[23:54:20] <pfred1> * pfred1 is wearing reading glasses right now or he wouldn't be able to read this channel
[23:54:20] <andypugh> Is a 3mm cube.
[23:54:57] <pfred1> andypugh man when I was younger i had a job doing assembly and I had to do SMT ever since then I never been too keen on it
[23:55:07] <andypugh> And I think I used some even smaller ones as a turret position encoder on a work project a few years ago
[23:55:50] <pfred1> andypugh I know I should really get over it because some parts only SMT but ah just never have
[23:56:09] <andypugh> Considering that the machine was a tiny mechanical testing machine used for measuring the force required to pull the cold wires off of IC dies, and to knock the solder balls of of BGA devices, it was all rather little.
[23:56:27] <andypugh> I love SMT, no holes to drill
[23:56:30] <pfred1> andypugh its like an irrational thing I know but well like fear of flying
[23:56:46] <pfred1> I'm not afraid just adverse anymore
[23:56:52] <andypugh> Not cold wires, gold wires)
[23:57:15] <pfred1> nah we had to do just the ships like resistors and oh those transistors
[23:57:30] <pfred1> s/ships/chips/g;
[23:58:04] <pfred1> with the two leads on one side! oh!
[23:58:27] <andypugh> I overclocked my Mac 4400. That involved moving some 0302 size resistors on the motherboard. That was quite tense
[23:59:05] <pfred1> andypugh yeah they make special heated tweesers for SMT rework hope you had a pair!
[23:59:42] <pfred1> that is another thing I'm not really tooled up to do SMT at home
[23:59:54] <andypugh> No, I hammered the end of a TCP soldering iron bit flat, and cut a slot in it.