#emc | Logs for 2009-11-11

[00:00:10] <andypugh> Ah! I thought de meant Deutschland
[00:00:13] <toastydeath> *lysergic acid diethylamide
[00:00:17] <pfred1> andypugh acid would be a step up
[00:00:32] <pfred1> they got comcast in Germany?
[00:01:10] <andypugh> Thanks toastydeath. I thought I did quite well, when I started typing I only knew as far as Lysergic, and couldn't spell that.
[00:01:20] <toastydeath> * toastydeath golf clap
[00:15:26] <andypugh> Has anyone here tried using one of these USB-digital IO chips? http://www.delcomproducts.com/productdetails.asp?productnum=902770
[00:16:03] <andypugh> They are very cheap ( $8 ) but the $66 postage is a bit of a barrier to purchase.
[00:16:24] <pfred1> andypugh $66 postage!
[00:16:35] <andypugh> Aye, from NY to the UK
[00:16:47] <pfred1> andypugh ehere you live he dark side of the moon?
[00:16:52] <archivist> andypugh, looks like a cypress part get in uk
[00:17:13] <pfred1> andypugh there good suppliers in UK
[00:17:22] <andypugh> I was surprised. Plus a $5 handling charge for the overseas order.
[00:17:54] <archivist> farnell or rs probably
[00:18:22] <andypugh> Aye, they don't make any attempt to hide the fact it is a cypress part, but it comes ready-programmed to Just Work as a HID USB device (which probably means it would plug straight into EMC too)
[00:18:48] <andypugh> RS don't sell it, as far as I can see
[00:19:14] <archivist> I bet the app notes for the chip tell how :)
[00:19:34] <andypugh> I get the impression it is a matter of flashing firmware.
[00:19:44] <archivist> yup
[00:21:01] <Jymmm> There's a fw based usb for AVR
[00:22:04] <Jymmm> http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/index.html
[00:22:20] <andypugh> £2 from Farnell, unprogrammed. The programming bit sounds like more bother than I want.
[00:22:27] <andypugh> http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/43425.pdf
[00:22:44] <pfred1> down the rom from bittorrent
[00:22:48] <Jymmm> It's usb 1.1, but al firmware based, no added usb chips needed
[00:23:36] <andypugh> Yes, but, well, err. I only want a USB parallel port.
[00:23:57] <bluntz_> checkout sparkfun
[00:24:01] <Jymmm> Not for driving motors you don't
[00:24:29] <andypugh> I have a widget I made for work that lets me turn a knob, have my laptop read the encoder switch and change the engine injection timing on the fly. But my new laptop has no parallel port....
[00:24:58] <Jymmm> any cardbuss or pcmcia slots?
[00:25:07] <andypugh> I think so.
[00:25:13] <pfred1> ever get the idea that there is some sort of a conspiracy to stop people from tinkering anymore?
[00:25:28] <Jymmm> Then you can use one of those. Those are REAL paraports.
[00:25:34] <andypugh> Realtime performance is irrelevant, incidentally, it is read by an Excel macro
[00:26:56] <Jymmm> Since when does excel run on ununtu?
[00:27:13] <andypugh> This is the work laptop.
[00:27:36] <Jymmm> andypugh: where are you?
[00:27:50] <andypugh> Basildon, UK
[00:29:20] <Jymmm> Oh, you don't want to mail order anything to there.
[00:29:48] <Jymmm> They screw you left and right on all the fees.
[00:30:29] <andypugh> Hmm, http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180375206316 is cheap enough. I wonder if it appears as a real pin-addressable parallel port?
[00:31:20] <Jymmm> you would have to check the drivers
[00:31:53] <andypugh> I was hoping not to need drivers. They don't like us installing anything. (which is why I do all my software development in Excel)
[00:32:32] <bluntz_> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php?c=20
[00:35:27] <Jymmm> Well, even under DOS you need to use card and socket service driver to access any PCMCIA device.
[00:35:51] <Jymmm> card bus enabler to be specific.
[00:36:26] <Jymmm> My Fuji laptop has REAL serial/paraports on it
[00:37:07] <Jymmm> *I* don't think I've ever attempted to address a paraport under windows before.
[00:37:16] <Jymmm> directly that is.
[00:38:31] <Jymmm> andypugh: You could buy something locally that has a liberal return policy and try it out under a LIVECD and see if it's detected.
[00:38:35] <andypugh> Well, I cheated using inpout32.dll, and then with a function declaration in VBA it is as simple as Out(888, 255) or in(889, A)
[00:39:31] <andypugh> Surprisingly you can poll the parallel port at 100kHz in an Excel macro. Except when windows decides something else is more important every few seconds.
[00:41:26] <Jymmm> Not something I ever wanted to know.
[00:41:28] <Jymmm> =)
[00:41:29] <pfred1> andypugh Windows really can let you hang outto dry sometimes can't it?
[00:42:13] <pfred1> it is like having Mr. Magoo for a data assistant or something
[00:42:37] <andypugh> It was disappointing when I was trying to synthesise cam and crank sensor signals for a test rig. In the end we cobbled together a realtime box from spare D-Space parts.
[00:43:13] <pfred1> Windows cultivates excellent patience
[00:44:10] <andypugh> The sparkfun site looks fascinating, but I can get the whole thing pre-assembled from a UK source for about the same money.
[00:44:17] <andypugh> http://www.active-robots.com/products/accessories/usb-modules.shtml
[00:46:29] <Jymmm> andypugh: does it HAVE to be paraport? Or just any I/O ?
[00:46:50] <andypugh> Just any digital IO that I can read easily in VBA
[00:47:12] <Jymmm> IMNSHO.... FSCK VBA
[00:47:20] <pfred1> andypugh glue an electric eye to your screen :)
[00:47:28] <andypugh> However I like the Delcom one as it was a USB HID device, so looked like it would plug straight in to EMC as a pendant controller.
[00:48:31] <andypugh> VBA is what I have, and what I am pretty good at using. (We run all our dyno testing with a VBA macro I wrote)
[00:51:10] <jt-plasma> say goodnight Gracie
[00:51:42] <Jymmm> jt-plasma: G'Night ya oky form the stoky!
[00:51:47] <Jymmm> from
[00:51:58] <Jymmm> ;)
[00:52:02] <andypugh> Aye, time for me to sleep too.
[01:01:49] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[01:09:39] <toastydeath> thundercats, ho!
[01:20:18] <Jymmm> * Jymmm lol @ toastydeath... you're so silly
[01:58:58] <MattyMatt> time for me to wake up up and say "bloody hell, it's still only 2am"
[01:59:04] <MattyMatt> I can hear a milkman up already. gizza job, I can do that
[02:26:25] <MattyMatt> hehe. I describe my machine on this channel, and everyone says "you're not making it strong enough" and then I describe it on #reprap and everyone says "you're making it too strong, way overkill dude"
[02:26:53] <pfred1> MattyMatt reprap is goo
[02:26:54] <MattyMatt> except for the motors, they agree mine are underpowered
[02:27:33] <pfred1> MattyMatt what kind of motors?
[02:27:50] <MattyMatt> 1A 60ozin
[02:28:10] <Jymmm> tinker toy + a glue gun.... what do you expect?!
[02:28:15] <pfred1> Slo-Syns?
[02:28:44] <MattyMatt> Superior Electric. look like 1970s stock
[02:28:55] <pfred1> 8 leads?
[02:29:09] <MattyMatt> yeah
[02:29:16] <pfred1> I got two of them
[02:29:20] <pfred1> they're not bad
[02:29:37] <pfred1> what kind of drivers you using?
[02:29:45] <MattyMatt> I got 4 for 12quid on ebay
[02:30:50] <pfred1> I've only run mine in unipolar I bet they'd be pretty nice bipolar
[02:31:17] <pfred1> they'll be the first things I'll try to run bipolar
[02:32:34] <pfred1> MattyMatt motors are only a small part of the whole money equation and the bigger the motor the higher the costs go
[02:34:47] <MattyMatt> TB6560
[02:35:36] <MattyMatt> 3.5 A, bipolar only I think which is a bit of a pita as I have a 6 wire motor pulled from a dot matrix too
[02:36:05] <pfred1> MattyMatt that the reprap board?
[02:37:26] <MattyMatt> dunno what they use. this is the 4 axis board from Mega Supply on ebay
[02:37:35] <pfred1> MattyMatt ah
[02:37:59] <pfred1> MattyMatt so what sort of performance you feel you're getting out of it?
[02:39:41] <MattyMatt> well I paid for it early last week, and it hasn't got here from "UK, England" yet
[02:39:59] <MattyMatt> HK more like
[02:40:16] <pfred1> MattyMatt oh
[02:40:33] <pfred1> MattyMatt what power supply will you be using PC discard?
[02:41:08] <MattyMatt> in the meantime, my woodwork is getting more epic. now I'm toying with stealing the gas strut of my hatchback car for the dust lid
[02:42:44] <MattyMatt> I'll probably just use the 12V off the same psu I power the cpu with. it's a k6-2 so the mobo uses mainly 5V
[02:43:17] <pfred1> MattyMatt yes I'm not sure how much 12V computer PSUs put out
[02:43:47] <MattyMatt> new ones, or ones for P4, have plenty of 12V
[02:44:10] <pfred1> MattyMatt beyond that your motors are how many volts?
[02:44:19] <pfred1> mine are 11.2 I believe
[02:44:27] <MattyMatt> 5V mine say
[02:44:31] <pfred1> ah
[02:44:46] <pfred1> still might want to overvolt them more though for best performance
[02:44:52] <MattyMatt> I read that as 5V average. chopper drivers
[02:45:16] <pfred1> with a current limiter 20 I'd think would be minimum
[02:45:53] <pfred1> until you reach breakdown as long as current is limited all is well
[02:46:23] <pfred1> trouble I'm having is field speed
[02:46:32] <pfred1> steppers are hell inductors
[02:47:08] <pfred1> but you pump them full of volts you can get faster flux
[02:47:59] <pfred1> I'll say this if you're not happy with your performance don't get new motors boost your supply voltage
[02:48:50] <MattyMatt> I'll be happy if it moves my table at all with these ones
[02:48:50] <pfred1> because those motors can perform well
[02:49:28] <MattyMatt> I'll put 2 in gang if they don't
[02:49:35] <pfred1> heh
[02:49:46] <pfred1> with steppers power isn't the issue speed is
[02:49:48] <MattyMatt> one each end of the screw
[02:49:50] <pfred1> or power at speed
[02:50:12] <skunkworks> usually 15-20X rated voltage.
[02:50:32] <pfred1> skunkworks heh lets not have him burning the house down right off
[02:50:48] <skunkworks> (optimal anyways)
[02:50:49] <pfred1> but yeah to get inductors to move you have to really shock them
[02:50:50] <MattyMatt> I don't mind getting bigger motors later, because I have plenty of uses for spares for other robots
[02:51:12] <pfred1> MattyMatt the bad news there s you're going to need another power supply for them
[02:51:35] <pfred1> MattyMatt so just get it for little motors first
[02:51:51] <pfred1> and they'll probably do the job for you
[02:52:14] <MattyMatt> yeah I'm making a wooden meccano set, so I can rebuild it many times
[02:52:17] <pfred1> seen any old stereos kicing around?
[02:52:26] <pfred1> kicking around even
[02:52:41] <pfred1> high wattage stereos
[02:52:52] <pfred1> they got nice transformers in them :)
[02:53:10] <pfred1> heavier is better
[02:53:14] <MattyMatt> I've already thought of that, but none of the drivers take advantage of the +/- audio psu
[02:53:42] <pfred1> heh you just don't use the middle
[02:53:52] <pfred1> you call - gnd
[02:53:55] <MattyMatt> they should do, as they are usually full-bridge just like a high power audio amp
[02:54:22] <pfred1> I'm talking ripping something apart and building a PSU
[02:55:03] <pfred1> let me find pic of last PSU I built
[02:55:04] <MattyMatt> a good audio amp PSU already has nice characteristics for a stepper motor
[02:55:20] <MattyMatt> I'd use it intact
[02:55:26] <pfred1> hmm it can
[02:57:57] <MattyMatt> same sort of job really. high power low impedence inductive load at low to med freq. only diff is you're moving a leadscrew instead of air
[02:59:34] <MattyMatt> audio amps filter out 0hz, but that's easily snipped
[03:00:09] <pfred1> I didn't know that about them
[03:00:43] <MattyMatt> DC offset adjust. it copes with 1Vpp single rail inputs
[03:01:17] <pfred1> oh you mean filter capacitors?
[03:01:21] <MattyMatt> yep
[03:01:27] <pfred1> heh yes
[03:01:36] <pfred1> don't want to push DC into a speaker
[03:01:41] <MattyMatt> speakers don't like DC :)
[03:01:46] <pfred1> those i am aware of
[03:02:00] <pfred1> I've built a few audio amplifiers
[03:02:05] <pfred1> hey does this work?
[03:02:11] <pfred1> http://www.instructables.com/file/FQEUXTTG1BBHIWI/
[03:02:14] <MattyMatt> afaics, they are the only thing stopping an audio amp working
[03:02:45] <MattyMatt> others here advised me not to waste time & good amps trying it :)
[03:02:53] <pfred1> MattyMatt well there is a PSU ithat runs the audio amp
[03:03:00] <pfred1> and it'd work
[03:03:13] <MattyMatt> it's still a good amp
[03:03:16] <pfred1> running the driver off the amp output wouldn't
[03:03:32] <pfred1> oh no I'm talking junk
[03:03:40] <pfred1> I got a pile of old stereos
[03:04:05] <pfred1> most people flip on tape monitor and thats all she wrote!
[03:04:19] <pfred1> they think its broken and throw the unit out
[03:05:02] <pfred1> so not needing dozens of stereos I take most of them apart for parts
[03:05:13] <pfred1> I do keep some of the nicer ones
[03:05:28] <MattyMatt> mine has all 4 outputs working, but a friend has a similar one with 2 dead outputs (one left, one right, luckily). I may swap him and butcher his for the psu
[03:05:58] <pfred1> yeah how many watts it rated for?
[03:06:32] <MattyMatt> 100 at least. 4U black thing. mine is Sony his is JVC I think
[03:06:45] <pfred1> yeah that'd be the ticket
[03:07:05] <pfred1> probably get a good 45-65 V out of the transformer
[03:07:16] <pfred1> have to find the right taps
[03:07:40] <pfred1> maybe only use the center tap as your top voltage
[03:07:56] <pfred1> you get to see the picture?
[03:07:59] <MattyMatt> yeah if it's 36-0-36 I have the choice. I think the driver board is 36V max tho
[03:08:12] <pfred1> well now
[03:08:25] <pfred1> that is where the gadget in the picture comes into it all
[03:08:33] <pfred1> it is called a voltage regulator
[03:08:45] <pfred1> it takes a higher voltage and drops it for you
[03:09:01] <MattyMatt> resistively?
[03:09:13] <pfred1> that particular one can take a 40V input and output 2-38V adjustable
[03:09:23] <pfred1> no it does it linearly
[03:09:30] <MattyMatt> * MattyMatt puts BIG heatsink on 78M36
[03:09:55] <pfred1> there is an LM723 voltage regulator hooked up to three power transistors
[03:10:08] <pfred1> I've load tested it to 8 amps
[03:10:15] <pfred1> it didn't break much of a sweat
[03:10:49] <pfred1> it is current limited too
[03:10:53] <pfred1> which can be nice
[03:11:24] <pfred1> let me see if I can find the schematic of it
[03:11:36] <MattyMatt> yeah I could do that
[03:12:25] <MattyMatt> no need for schematic. I know how regulators work
[03:12:41] <MattyMatt> I'm even starting to grok switch mode :)
[03:13:04] <pfred1> thing is sometimes switchmode messes up choppers
[03:13:10] <pfred1> being as it is a chopper
[03:13:21] <MattyMatt> yeah I've heard
[03:13:32] <pfred1> which is why linear is where its at
[03:13:45] <MattyMatt> otherwise I'd be looking at universal laptop psu
[03:14:11] <MattyMatt> why regulate it at all, if it's just for the motors?
[03:14:15] <pfred1> this where I got the schemo from: http://hmin.tripod.com/als/andysm/drawings/supplies/ps2-30v.gif
[03:14:27] <pfred1> I built a couple on their page this one is nice
[03:14:34] <pfred1> http://hmin.tripod.com/als/andysm/pages/analogs3.html
[03:15:05] <pfred1> its a honker!
[03:15:09] <MattyMatt> straight rectified & smoothed should do, with one of those multifarad caps they use for car audio
[03:15:42] <pfred1> MattyMatt the beer can cap in my PSU is only 32,000uF
[03:15:56] <pfred1> car audio people are usually stupid
[03:16:07] <pfred1> or just idiots I donno
[03:16:35] <MattyMatt> holding torque = bass response :)
[03:16:42] <pfred1> sure if you can get just the right transformer you're set!
[03:17:33] <pfred1> I've done a lot of electronics scrounging over the years and getting the right transformer can be hard sometimes
[03:17:53] <pfred1> so adjustable PSUs can come in handy
[03:18:07] <pfred1> must be why 've built dozens of them now ...
[03:18:28] <MattyMatt> I know it. I couldn't find a 22V one for Atari mono screen so I used 32V one with a 60W light bulb in series
[03:18:54] <MattyMatt> worked OK :)
[03:18:55] <pfred1> heh the old lightbulb as a dropping resistor trick
[03:19:27] <pfred1> some guy on that first website is using lightbulbs as droppers for his stepper drivers
[03:19:42] <MattyMatt> fuse & indicator in one
[03:19:57] <pfred1> one of my motors needed a 32 watt dropper
[03:20:08] <pfred1> with one drive I made
[03:20:20] <pfred1> I didn't run that one too long
[03:20:50] <pfred1> but seriously to get maximum performance out of your motors you're going to have to over volt them
[03:21:11] <MattyMatt> yeah I was planning to. only real constraint is temp
[03:21:50] <pfred1> most steppers rated for like 140c
[03:21:58] <MattyMatt> and as the coils are all in the stator, the case temp is close to coil temp
[03:22:01] <pfred1> which is burning hot!
[03:22:24] <MattyMatt> not wood-burning hot thankfully
[03:22:34] <pfred1> no just hand burning hot
[03:22:45] <pfred1> but you shouldn't run that hot
[03:22:52] <pfred1> and fans are cheap
[03:23:26] <MattyMatt> yeah one fan per motor, and I'll run them slow until I can mill fins for the motors :)
[03:24:20] <pfred1> too bad stepers don't run fast enough to cool themselves
[03:24:41] <pfred1> my best to date has been 2500 RPM
[03:24:55] <pfred1> but at that I doubt it could have run a fan blade
[03:25:23] <MattyMatt> a 6" fan would shift air at that speed
[03:25:37] <pfred1> yeah but the stepper didn't have the torque there
[03:25:39] <MattyMatt> you could gear it up too.
[03:25:55] <pfred1> thats the rub with steppers its speed or torque
[03:26:04] <pfred1> you don't get both
[03:26:12] <pfred1> least not at the same time
[03:26:27] <pfred1> which is why servo companies do a healthy business
[03:27:26] <skunkworks> servos are not as scary as people think :)
[03:27:56] <pfred1> skunkworks I got a couple
[03:28:11] <pfred1> skunkworks but I'm doing this stepper stuff first
[03:28:28] <MattyMatt> encoding is a bit scary
[03:28:45] <MattyMatt> but I'm certainly gonna try webcam-watching-vernier
[03:28:46] <pfred1> no scarier than not knowing if you've missed steps or not
[03:29:44] <pfred1> people with their glass scales
[03:30:51] <MattyMatt> yeah I want encoding just for convenience too, so I can use the handwheels in the middle of a job
[03:31:24] <pfred1> I been using nothing but handwheels all my life
[03:32:04] <cradek> I don't know how to ask without sounding pedantic, but when people say vernier do they mean dial caliper? digital caliper? any caliper? I really doubt everyone but me uses exclusively vernier calipers
[03:32:29] <pfred1> cradek vernier calipers have a graduated scale on them like a ruler
[03:32:30] <MattyMatt> I want to have shafts bringing all 3 axes to the front of the table for the giant etch-a-sketch effect
[03:32:57] <cradek> pfred1: I know exactly what a vernier is - but I think people commonly call other things "verniers" and I wonder what they are
[03:32:57] <pfred1> cradek I guess like venetian blinds or something the term means
[03:33:28] <MattyMatt> by vernier I mean screwing a ruler to the edge of the table, and a small 0.9mm vernier to the frame
[03:33:29] <skunkworks> I know older folk that use 'verniers' for all of the above..
[03:33:36] <pfred1> I always took it to mean graduated
[03:34:02] <pfred1> I had vernier calipers damn they took foever to read
[03:34:11] <cradek> vernier is the thing where a graduation of N marks slides against a graduation of N+1 marks and you see which marks align
[03:34:21] <cradek> they are found on calipers and also many other things
[03:34:29] <MattyMatt> I'm comfortable with plain vernier caliper
[03:34:44] <cradek> skunkworks: so it means "any kind of caliper"?
[03:34:48] <skunkworks> yes
[03:34:53] <skunkworks> :)
[03:34:55] <cradek> I mean in this common usage I keep seeing
[03:34:55] <MattyMatt> on the mm scale anyway. the inch one wrecks my head
[03:34:57] <cradek> ok, thanks
[03:35:00] <pfred1> MattyMatt nah too inaccurate for me too subject to opinion
[03:35:24] <pfred1> I just ot some cheap assed digital calipers man they spoil me
[03:35:36] <MattyMatt> 0.1mm is plenty accurate enough for woodwork, but I'll get a digital one for metalwork when I'm ready
[03:35:37] <pfred1> thing measures to .0005
[03:35:50] <cradek> MattyMatt: are you talking about a webcam looking at a digital caliper in place of an encoder?
[03:36:35] <pfred1> best elcheapo encoders I've seen have all involved strings and dissected computer mice
[03:36:39] <MattyMatt> nope, I'm talking about webcam looking at the ruler and the index+vernier
[03:36:56] <skunkworks> we have a 4ft vernier caliper... (yes vernier).
[03:36:58] <cradek> what a wild idea
[03:37:09] <MattyMatt> as image-analysis problems go, it's a simple job
[03:37:09] <pfred1> computer mice are like 2400 DPI and stuff
[03:39:00] <MattyMatt> OCR to read the numbers on the ruler, simple best-fit to read the ticks
[03:39:28] <MattyMatt> hopefully it'll work with sawdust on it
[03:39:57] <pfred1> all I want from my first machine if an X-Y plotter
[03:40:29] <pfred1> so I can mask PCBs directly I'm tired of ironing
[03:40:40] <dgarr> cradek: patch amended to remove debugging prints, what do i need to do next? http://www.panix.com/~dgarrett/stuff/0001-Numbered-parameters-for-current-tool-items.patch
[03:40:50] <pfred1> toner transfer never worked too reliably for me
[03:41:22] <MattyMatt> last pcb I made was drawn with a pen :) I want to mill them to save etching
[03:41:34] <pfred1> copper mills like crap
[03:41:38] <pfred1> its sticky and stringy
[03:41:56] <pfred1> but hey we all got dreams
[03:42:17] <MattyMatt> pcb milling appears to work very well
[03:42:21] <cradek> dgarr: looking...
[03:42:22] <pfred1> I know people do it but I won't be one of them
[03:42:33] <pfred1> nah it can't touch etching
[03:42:43] <cradek> milling pcbs works super great IMO
[03:42:45] <pfred1> if it was any good commercial board houses would all be doing it
[03:42:50] <cradek> I hate hate hate etching
[03:43:08] <pfred1> if the mask is on right whats the problem?
[03:43:26] <cradek> big vats of chemicals
[03:43:26] <pfred1> 2 minutes and rinse
[03:43:43] <MattyMatt> I always had to thick tin everything because the mask was scratched
[03:43:45] <pfred1> I never make a board over eagles freebie limit
[03:43:50] <pfred1> 3x5
[03:44:29] <MattyMatt> mill + drill = win
[03:44:42] <MattyMatt> who drills these days tho? :)
[03:44:43] <pfred1> so i use an old frozen entree plastic to etch in
[03:44:48] <pfred1> I do
[03:44:54] <pfred1> I hate SMT
[03:45:38] <MattyMatt> I had access to darkrooms, but I never got into photo etching. chems too expensive
[03:45:52] <pfred1> yeah but its the stuff
[03:46:10] <pfred1> I guess the really big boys litho it all
[03:46:22] <pfred1> but i never need that many boards
[03:47:18] <MattyMatt> I coulda done that for one-offs. I had access to process cams, bromides + developers. I coulda done 2ftx2ft boards if I'd wanted (to spend that much)
[03:47:21] <cradek> dgarr: still building.....
[03:47:28] <pfred1> I have a dedicated mini high speed drill press for drilling boards that goes easily enough for me
[03:48:03] <cradek> the beauty of doing cnc trace isolation is you can just drill while you already have the board there - you get the drills perfectly centered because you just cut the pads!
[03:48:32] <pfred1> cradek I've no problems drilling out PCBs
[03:48:42] <cradek> drilling by hand, temporary blindness sets in at 30 holes, drill breaks at 40 :-)
[03:48:46] <MattyMatt> with poppa's help (mounting his process cam sideways) I coulda done 6ft square litho negs
[03:48:58] <MattyMatt> dunno how he developed those tho
[03:48:58] <pfred1> cradek not with the right machine
[03:49:27] <cradek> pfred1: for me, right machine is little cnc mill I guess... drills never break on it.
[03:50:00] <MattyMatt> yeah, right place, right speed, upright
[03:50:05] <pfred1> cradek yeah I don't have a little mill
[03:50:14] <pfred1> cradek only a big one :)
[03:50:27] <cradek> I've got both - it's nice :-)
[03:50:38] <pfred1> spindle speed too slow on it to drill PCBs
[03:50:46] <MattyMatt> you only need 2" of Z to turn an XY plotter into a pcb mill
[03:51:52] <MattyMatt> maybe 3" would make bit changing easier :)
[03:52:42] <pfred1> I donno I have a mini drill press and I don't mind drilling out PCBs on it
[03:53:00] <pfred1> it works well and goes quickly
[03:53:20] <MattyMatt> 3d pick & place. no pcb just components in a matrix of copper
[03:53:23] <cradek> dgarr: with no tool loaded, I can set #5403 to nonzero, and when I read it back, it's the nonzero value. However, issuing G43 does not apply that offset. [to be fair, I'm not sure what it should do, just that this seems odd]
[03:54:29] <pfred1> MattyMatt the trouble is to get that 2" is a lot of overhead for Y
[03:55:08] <pfred1> MattyMatt if you going to go through all that trouble might as well build something more useful
[03:55:28] <MattyMatt> the weight of the Z motion isn't more than the spindle usually
[03:56:15] <pfred1> MattyMatt hmm must be a design I'm unfamiliar with all I've seen Y carries Z
[03:56:25] <MattyMatt> a low gantry is naturally stiffer than a high one, so there are advantages to limited Z, but yeah mine is 200mm travel
[03:57:05] <MattyMatt> I call the gantry X on mine, and the table Y
[03:57:36] <pfred1> I call left and right X and forward and backward Y
[03:57:54] <MattyMatt> yeah, that's how my machine sits on the desktop :)
[03:58:12] <MattyMatt> it's all relative
[03:59:13] <pfred1> wih a moving table you can not carry any axis on another with just an X-Y
[03:59:30] <MattyMatt> desktop ha. I'll be ready to bolt the legs on soon
[03:59:33] <pfred1> because you can use a fixed gantry
[04:00:55] <MattyMatt> this is pretty much what I'm doing http://www.solsylva.com/cnc/13x13x5.shtml
[04:01:36] <MattyMatt> except I've made huge L shaped sides instead of bolt-on uprights
[04:02:18] <MattyMatt> I figured I should take advantage of plywood's happiness at L shapes
[04:02:37] <pfred1> hmm I've never noticed
[04:02:58] <pfred1> I'm usually happy when it comes out square
[04:03:05] <MattyMatt> it's happier than MDF or wood. they would split under tension
[04:03:34] <MattyMatt> a 90deg in plywood will stay 90deg
[04:05:27] <MattyMatt> so these sides will be the squares I use to align the whole machine
[04:06:12] <pfred1> yeah I made one crappy table but I've decided it needs a redo
[04:06:41] <pfred1> tried to make a moving gantry and it is too rough
[04:06:49] <pfred1> fixed is better
[04:06:54] <MattyMatt> I've decided to enclose mine now. I need some perspex
[04:07:08] <pfred1> why enclose it?
[04:07:19] <MattyMatt> noise and dust
[04:07:42] <pfred1> that is what machines are suppposed to make
[04:07:59] <MattyMatt> not in momma's house they're not, altho she hoovers
[04:08:14] <pfred1> oh
[04:08:30] <pfred1> yeah I do y work in my garage
[04:08:47] <pfred1> make all the noise and dust i want to
[04:09:12] <MattyMatt> I got a 14" table saw in the house if I want to make dust :)
[04:10:16] <pfred1> encased in perspex?
[04:10:40] <pfred1> I've seen CNC routers with vacuums attached
[04:10:50] <pfred1> seems reasonable enough to me
[04:11:04] <MattyMatt> I've only used that for straightening beams. it's too fierce to cut straight lines in big pieces of ply, without extensions on the table
[04:11:15] <pfred1> not so sure how much noise perspex would cut from a router anyways
[04:11:39] <MattyMatt> a vacuum or blower is essential to keep dust away from the cutting tool.
[04:11:44] <pfred1> yeah my tablesaw sucked until i made an extension table for it
[04:12:24] <pfred1> now i can break down full sheets on it no problem
[04:12:45] <MattyMatt> it's good exercise, sawing by hand
[04:12:55] <pfred1> done clamping a beam onto it and breaking out a circular saw
[04:13:04] <MattyMatt> that's what I keep telling myself as I'm rubbing life back into my hand
[04:13:31] <pfred1> you saw better than i do
[04:13:48] <pfred1> I was never very good at hand sawing
[04:14:50] <MattyMatt> the trick is scraping both sides nice and deep before attacking the meat from the end
[04:16:05] <MattyMatt> and even then you have to watch you're not veering away from the grooves
[04:16:42] <MattyMatt> and then sandpaper hids your sins :)
[04:16:52] <pfred1> yes it does
[04:17:10] <pfred1> I made some bookcases and I sanded the heck out of them
[04:17:27] <pfred1> I didn't verneer the plywood edges
[04:17:37] <pfred1> just sanded them
[04:18:02] <pfred1> I like how they look everyone that sees them seems to like them too
[04:18:17] <MattyMatt> mine are still rough. tempted to put edges on them. halfround or 1/4" flat, not veneer
[04:18:40] <pfred1> nah i just ripped it you know 90 degrees
[04:18:55] <pfred1> I think it looks scandanavian or something
[04:19:05] <MattyMatt> I like the look of plywood edge too, when nicely finished
[04:19:07] <pfred1> you know like that modern furniture
[04:19:22] <pfred1> oh yeah i used nice plywood no voids
[04:19:33] <pfred1> and marine spar varnish on them
[04:20:10] <pfred1> wen I say i sanded the heck out of them I mean I broke out the autobody sanders
[04:20:30] <pfred1> wet sanded them too
[04:21:40] <MattyMatt> I hand sanded my 7ft desktop for 3 coats of varnish. It was a Zen experience, in a karate kid way
[04:22:05] <pfred1> MattyMatt ever paint a car?
[04:22:07] <MattyMatt> that's a nice bit of birch-faced
[04:22:26] <pfred1> MattyMatt I spent 2 months hand sanding one
[04:22:48] <pfred1> I got to the point where i got sick of how that car looked
[04:22:55] <pfred1> and its a pretty car too
[04:23:34] <MattyMatt> I spent a while on mine, put on a coat of primer, then rubbed it down again, then decided it wasn't worth spending more on paint until it was roadworthy, and how the surface rust spots are back
[04:23:39] <pfred1> one of these http://moezelaar.com/web%20images/p1800%20012.jpg
[04:24:08] <MattyMatt> * MattyMatt finds url of 1991 Fiesta Flight
[04:24:16] <pfred1> though mine is 1983 BMW salmon silver
[04:24:29] <pfred1> has a hint of red in it
[04:24:46] <pfred1> metallics are the hardest paints to apply
[04:24:55] <pfred1> well the pearls are tough too
[04:24:59] <MattyMatt> mine has flatter panels, fo sho
[04:25:09] <MattyMatt> that's a curvy car
[04:25:16] <pfred1> heh
[04:25:24] <pfred1> my batmobile
[04:25:33] <MattyMatt> needs a fin
[04:25:34] <pfred1> thats what everyone calls it
[04:26:07] <pfred1> needs a sweede
[04:26:28] <MattyMatt> bro had a dark blue Civic. I'm still disappointed he wouldn't let me put a shark fin on it
[04:28:08] <MattyMatt> I'll make a rubber one, with aerials in it as an excuse, but it would look a bit daft on a clunky fiesta
[04:31:05] <pfred1> rubber?
[04:31:30] <pfred1> I've done a fair bit with fiberglass but not had much luck working with rubber
[04:31:54] <pfred1> which BTW I'm suprised i don't see more of with these homebrewed CNC machines
[04:32:00] <pfred1> fiberglass that is
[04:33:34] <MattyMatt> fiberglass is unpleasant stuff to breathe as dust
[04:34:00] <MattyMatt> I'd cut wooden formers tho
[04:34:22] <MattyMatt> or spars for the boat, and a fiberglass hull etc
[04:34:36] <pfred1> no worse than lots of other dust
[04:35:03] <pfred1> yes fiberglass can be strong
[04:35:53] <pfred1> and if one is restricted with machining methods fiberglass is versatile
[04:36:49] <pfred1> just seems to be an overlooked material with these homebrewed CNC projects to me is all
[04:37:13] <MattyMatt> yeah it has its uses for making stroong plastic parts, but you're always under time pressure
[04:37:31] <pfred1> lord knows I've seen people throw everything else at these projects
[04:37:48] <pfred1> including at least the pipes from the kitchen sink!
[04:38:12] <MattyMatt> thermoplastics can be reworked and recycled
[04:38:30] <pfred1> something I've always wanted to get more into
[04:38:34] <MattyMatt> so those advantages outweight the strength you get from glass reinforcment
[04:38:35] <pfred1> like HDPE
[04:39:03] <pfred1> I have some machinable HDPE and man is the stuff ever so fun to play with
[04:39:26] <pfred1> I'd love to be able to say melt down old plastic containers and geet some of that out of the deal
[04:39:45] <MattyMatt> glass-loaded ABS would be good if it can be extruded
[04:40:05] <pfred1> where does that come from?
[04:40:20] <pfred1> I have some seaboard
[04:40:23] <MattyMatt> yeah the extruders all use filament on reels. I'd like a big syringe/crucible combo :)
[04:40:54] <pfred1> which I think is just HDPE with pebbling on the surface
[04:41:03] <MattyMatt> glass loaded ABS? ground up beer bottles and printer cases >:)
[04:41:23] <pfred1> so you melt it?
[04:41:34] <pfred1> I've done a little aluminum casting
[04:41:37] <MattyMatt> not yet, but that's the plan
[04:41:48] <pfred1> its easier than it sounds
[04:41:57] <MattyMatt> lionel labs :)
[04:42:03] <pfred1> since I've done it I'm convinced you could do it on a barbeque
[04:42:17] <MattyMatt> read his entire site twice
[04:42:19] <pfred1> aluminum has a pretty low melting point
[04:42:35] <pfred1> well it isn't even as involved as he makes it out to be really
[04:43:05] <pfred1> you can practically throw it in a paint can on a barbeque
[04:43:30] <MattyMatt> yeah but bronze & iron would be nice
[04:43:30] <pfred1> I've done it on a wood fire
[04:44:01] <MattyMatt> alu first, of course, to get experience
[04:44:08] <pfred1> much higher melting points
[04:44:29] <pfred1> really aluminum melts what 400 over lead?
[04:44:40] <pfred1> lead is like 800 aluminum is 1200
[04:45:04] <MattyMatt> 600C for alu iirc. around 900 for bronze, 1200+ for iron
[04:45:08] <pfred1> it isn't a mind boggling temp really
[04:45:25] <pfred1> well I don't think in C
[04:45:42] <pfred1> C is 2 degrees a degree or something
[04:45:42] <MattyMatt> I do for anything over 212F
[04:45:51] <MattyMatt> 9/5
[04:46:05] <pfred1> close enough to 2 for me
[04:46:23] <pfred1> because over an open fire its not like you adjusting the thermostat
[04:46:28] <tomp> i just read about 900 degrees conversion to a weber egg grill, 'the little black egg" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phcTzLKhACY
[04:46:32] <MattyMatt> tell that to the refractory supplier
[04:46:54] <pfred1> I lucked out and ran across two tossed out kilns
[04:47:06] <MattyMatt> that seems to be the limiting factor in any furnace
[04:47:07] <pfred1> for a few garbage pails of firebricks out of them
[04:47:26] <pfred1> the lightweight 2300F variety
[04:47:34] <pfred1> like $5 a brick
[04:47:38] <MattyMatt> I've seen a mini furnace made from 6 bricks
[04:47:51] <pfred1> oh I have I donno over 100 bricks
[04:47:56] <pfred1> big pile
[04:48:29] <MattyMatt> nice
[04:48:40] <pfred1> let me see if I can find a pic of my furnace
[04:48:52] <pfred1> which is like nothing of the bricks i got
[04:49:53] <MattyMatt> I could cnc tounge&groove in firebricks
[04:50:16] <pfred1> see if you can access this: http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/6926185/hr/805358075/name/Blast_F.jpg
[04:50:26] <pfred1> not so sure how Yahoo does it
[04:50:39] <MattyMatt> the design I saw used no mortar, the bricks were held by slotted angle frame
[04:50:53] <pfred1> mine are held together by tie wire
[04:51:09] <pfred1> cept the top I made out of versa-angle and screwed the bricks to it
[04:51:25] <pfred1> pretty much gravity holds mine together
[04:51:53] <MattyMatt> yep same as your lid, but the whole thing was like that, no screws in the bricks, long bolts
[04:52:10] <pfred1> yeah i just used 2" drywalls
[04:52:38] <pfred1> but I done two melts with that
[04:52:49] <pfred1> used scrap wood I have in the yard
[04:53:10] <pfred1> I have one of them flying saucer fire pits and I get a fire going in it
[04:53:25] <pfred1> then shovel the coals into the furnace and add some more wood
[04:53:30] <MattyMatt> waste oil seems like a win, but I haven't mooched the local mechanics and chipshops yet
[04:53:55] <pfred1> well I have a lot of wood
[04:54:07] <pfred1> acres of the stuff
[04:54:20] <pfred1> danged trees always dropping dead
[04:54:24] <MattyMatt> handy
[04:54:28] <pfred1> not really
[04:54:49] <pfred1> sucks to have to clean them up
[04:54:58] <pfred1> so I burn them
[04:55:09] <MattyMatt> make a huge hexapod with chainsaws in each hand
[04:55:31] <pfred1> yeah that is me a couple times of the year when I get tired of looking at dead trees
[04:55:49] <pfred1> chop them up and pile them up where i can't see them
[04:56:15] <MattyMatt> teach the hexapod to make furniture
[04:56:28] <pfred1> nah stuff is worthless all pine
[04:56:32] <MattyMatt> have a pile of chairs lurking in the woods
[04:56:43] <pfred1> I tried to make a bench out of some of it and its too flimsy
[04:56:53] <MattyMatt> I thought you liked scandi furniture? :)
[04:57:02] <pfred1> well this is horrible pine
[04:57:14] <pfred1> or it wouldn't have keeled over dead I'd imagine
[04:57:28] <pfred1> ants eat the bases of the trees
[04:57:37] <pfred1> or something
[04:57:53] <pfred1> but some just get about 6" in diameter and drop dead
[04:57:58] <MattyMatt> woodchips don't burn hot enough to melt iron, unless it's oak chips. that's what I've read
[04:57:59] <pfred1> well lots
[04:58:21] <pfred1> yes hardwood charcoal
[04:58:29] <pfred1> the oak i have is nice
[04:58:35] <pfred1> I don't burn that
[04:58:56] <pfred1> we're sort of famous for our oak hear I've found out
[04:59:00] <MattyMatt> I'll avoid that orony by getting waste oil :)
[04:59:16] <MattyMatt> ^irony
[04:59:17] <pfred1> if you can get it
[04:59:39] <pfred1> lots of places heat with waste oil
[04:59:49] <pfred1> like car garages
[04:59:49] <MattyMatt> I'll buy momma a deep-fat fryer if I can't
[05:00:08] <pfred1> yeah and have all the fat chix hanging around
[05:00:13] <MattyMatt> "momma, each more chips, I'm making a lathe"
[05:00:20] <pfred1> when you burn that stuff it smells like french fries
[05:00:24] <pfred1> for blocks!
[05:00:48] <pfred1> I mean really smells
[05:01:12] <pfred1> my neighbors probably would complain and they're pretty far off
[05:01:13] <MattyMatt> the good chippys use fish oil
[05:01:30] <pfred1> actually I like it in peanut oil myself
[05:01:36] <MattyMatt> the best chippys use beef lard
[05:01:52] <pfred1> I'm telling you peanut oil
[05:02:01] <pfred1> makes a nice fry
[05:02:08] <MattyMatt> mm peanuts
[05:02:14] <MattyMatt> kills weaklings too
[05:02:20] <pfred1> they soak you $7 a cup for them here
[05:02:34] <MattyMatt> if I have kids, I'm weaning them on PB and raising the survivors
[05:02:51] <pfred1> yeah i have no allergies i know about
[05:03:29] <MattyMatt> you can acquire peanut allegy, though a blood transfusion. I'll be damn careful not to bleed in future
[05:04:29] <pfred1> want to see a lathe i made?
[05:04:46] <MattyMatt> that would be on a par to getting hepatitis or aids. you can live for years with them but not without peanuts
[05:05:59] <MattyMatt> yeah show me lathe. gingery?
[05:06:07] <pfred1> not exactly
[05:06:08] <MattyMatt> mm ginger
[05:06:20] <pfred1> http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/6926185/hr/1830392302/name/n_a
[05:06:25] <pfred1> see if that works
[05:06:42] <pfred1> Yahoo groups usually make you join to view content
[05:07:06] <pfred1> I did what Gingery said was impossible
[05:07:20] <MattyMatt> ah sweet yeah. the stocks look like the temporary ones in the gingery scheme
[05:07:22] <pfred1> it was difficult but I wouldn't call it impossible
[05:07:56] <pfred1> thing is solid too
[05:08:09] <MattyMatt> I'd me tempted to cast a solid headstock at least
[05:08:46] <pfred1> yeah one of these days I plan on making a new pulley for the headstock and a bigger spindle in it too bigger bearings
[05:09:06] <pfred1> got the blank sitting on it now for the mold just never finished it
[05:09:23] <MattyMatt> do it now, while you can still bore it
[05:10:24] <pfred1> I'm surprised i don't have a picture of it
[05:10:28] <pfred1> I do someplace
[05:11:14] <pfred1> http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/12450162/sn/80996852/name/n_a.jpg
[05:11:43] <pfred1> never got around ot makingthe chisels to make the grooves in it yet
[05:11:56] <pfred1> its on my long todo list :)
[05:13:44] <pfred1> but yeah I'm happy with how that lathe came out so far still room for improvements but it works
[05:14:25] <MattyMatt> I'd be worried about using that with more than a pound or two of workpiece. not much metal keeping the spindle down
[05:15:01] <pfred1> I made the bearings out of two pieces of half inch thick inch wide steel
[05:15:23] <pfred1> the shaft would snap long before the bearings gave out
[05:15:47] <pfred1> that was all a real PIA to get right
[05:15:58] <pfred1> thats why there's two other shafts sitting there
[05:16:04] <pfred1> they're messed up
[05:17:44] <pfred1> mounting the chuck to the spindle was the only really nutzo part of the project
[05:18:23] <MattyMatt> you have a lthe now. you can make a taper :)
[05:18:32] <pfred1> but on the third try i got it!
[05:18:47] <pfred1> I got a couple other lathes I made a taper on one once
[05:19:25] <MattyMatt> is that a drill chuck?
[05:19:37] <pfred1> when i redo the spindle I'll have to have a go at doing a taper
[05:19:43] <pfred1> yeah a 3/4 inch one
[05:20:03] <MattyMatt> good enough for woodwork :)
[05:20:13] <pfred1> oh yes it turns wood
[05:20:38] <pfred1> I made another lathe years ago for turning wood too this is like a redo of that
[05:20:46] <MattyMatt> lloks like it'll finish alu pulleys OK too
[05:20:51] <pfred1> the 3" C channel in the bed is from that lathe
[05:21:12] <pfred1> I used it for sentimental reasons
[05:21:26] <pfred1> the tool rest too come to think about it
[05:21:35] <pfred1> and the tailstock
[05:21:52] <pfred1> which I didn't make but found years ago in my grandfathers celler
[05:22:37] <pfred1> but I had to do some machining on it too
[05:23:50] <MattyMatt> how do you slacken the countershaft?
[05:24:11] <pfred1> it is hinged
[05:24:16] <pfred1> you just pick it up
[05:24:28] <pfred1> it rests on this wooden stand i made
[05:24:55] <pfred1> so if you really screw up and dig a chisel in it'll lift the motor
[05:25:25] <pfred1> but it still delivers plenty of power to work
[05:25:41] <pfred1> hey check out my prototyped motor drivers
[05:25:49] <pfred1> http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/12450162/sn/542909338/name/Stepper_Drivers.jpg
[05:26:52] <pfred1> I joined this channel earlier to ask people in here if they're good enough performance to use or not
[05:27:22] <MattyMatt> and the answer you got was "try it and see"?
[05:27:35] <pfred1> no was pretty much they should do the job
[05:27:45] <pfred1> they do what motor drivers do
[05:28:06] <pfred1> emc will help them in actual usage with ramping
[05:28:19] <pfred1> something that was bugging me
[05:28:24] <MattyMatt> yeah, I ordered an overspec driver board, but I can always use spares for other projects
[05:28:32] <pfred1> see steppers can't start off very fast
[05:28:51] <pfred1> but once they're gong you can get more speed out of them
[05:29:01] <pfred1> but once they're going you can get more speed out of them
[05:29:28] <pfred1> it was driving me nuts!
[05:29:45] <pfred1> they won't start out much faster than say around 300 RPM or so
[05:29:46] <MattyMatt> I suspect feeding them sine waves would help at high speed
[05:30:12] <pfred1> I've had my driver up to 2500 RPM
[05:30:22] <pfred1> but at that speed its worthless
[05:30:33] <pfred1> breathe on it and it'll stall
[05:30:39] <MattyMatt> that would be worse for a servo. they don't have any torque until they are fast
[05:31:05] <pfred1> yeah steppers rule going slow
[05:31:20] <pfred1> mine will break your fingers in torque band
[05:31:34] <MattyMatt> hydraulics win at v low speed
[05:31:34] <pfred1> there is no stopping it
[05:32:12] <pfred1> threads can be nasty
[05:32:20] <MattyMatt> broken fingers is why I prefer thinking in Nm to oz-in
[05:32:34] <pfred1> some of the worst jacks I've ever used have been screw jacks
[05:33:08] <pfred1> hydraulics are always messy too
[05:33:32] <pfred1> least my porta power unit is I always have to add oil to it
[05:38:32] <pfred1> hey want to see my tablesaw and fence i made for it?
[05:38:53] <pfred1> http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/6926185/hr/1063502364/name/DoneT.jpg
[05:41:23] <MrSunshine> is it cnced ?
[05:41:38] <pfred1> MrSunshine no
[05:41:56] <pfred1> MrSunshine but it has made stuff for my CNC
[05:42:01] <MrSunshine> meh :P
[05:42:20] <eric_unterhausen> do you have a router lift?
[05:42:29] <pfred1> MrSunshine one thing I'm finding out the more tools you have the more tools you need!
[05:43:12] <pfred1> eric_unterhausen my router has a lift built into it sort of its a Hitachi M12V has this handle thing
[05:43:50] <eric_unterhausen> I have an M12V, but maybe it's not the same model
[05:44:06] <pfred1> I'm not sure if they all came with the handle
[05:44:36] <eric_unterhausen> so you can raise it when it's upside down?
[05:44:40] <pfred1> you have to remove the two jamb nuts on the threaded rod and replace them with a cup and a nut and a spring and the handle thing
[05:45:10] <pfred1> yes you can raise and lower it when you put the handle thing on it
[05:45:44] <pfred1> the handle thing has another nut in it and ah fingers to engage the other nut in the cup
[05:46:03] <pfred1> but the spring keeps them from locking up
[05:46:31] <pfred1> its a PIA to get all the parts so it works right I always forget how they go but once you have it set right it works well
[05:46:50] <MattyMatt> I am NOT putting a computer in charge of my 14" saw until I have MUCH more experience
[05:46:58] <pfred1> eric_unterhausen wicked router isn't it?
[05:47:20] <eric_unterhausen> I like it
[05:47:27] <pfred1> me too loads of power
[05:47:28] <MattyMatt> thing takes 2 minutes to wind down
[05:47:50] <pfred1> ugly as sin but hey
[05:48:12] <eric_unterhausen> bandsaw?
[05:48:19] <pfred1> me?
[05:48:26] <eric_unterhausen> MattyMatt
[05:48:33] <MattyMatt> table saw
[05:48:48] <eric_unterhausen> 14" is an impressive tablesaw
[05:49:08] <MattyMatt> I need a bigger table to use it for much tho
[05:49:09] <pfred1> I want a 14" compound slide miter saw
[05:49:33] <pfred1> for doing them funny angle cuts in 4x4s
[05:50:01] <pfred1> but really hard to justify the expense
[05:51:14] <MattyMatt> I want to try one of those japanese miter saws, but they're expensive
[05:51:31] <pfred1> never heard of them
[05:51:54] <pfred1> I have some japanese hand saws
[05:52:00] <MattyMatt> they have convex edge, and variable pitch
[05:52:05] <pfred1> like dozis I think they're called
[05:52:23] <pfred1> the blade?
[05:52:41] <MattyMatt> that sound's like what you need for angle cuts. that and a good eye
[05:53:08] <pfred1> good math
[05:53:21] <MattyMatt> good blender
[05:53:46] <pfred1> I've made compound objects and there is some calculation involved
[05:54:20] <pfred1> blender tells you your angle and bevel settings?
[05:54:53] <MattyMatt> if you can draw it, you can take dimensions. dunno about angles tbh
[05:55:06] <pfred1> yeah need to know the angles
[05:55:30] <pfred1> the dimensions work temselves out
[05:56:03] <pfred1> when it works its pretty freaky
[05:56:15] <pfred1> like wow it all fits together!
[05:56:53] <MattyMatt> oten you don't need the angles, just the position of 2 points the line goes through
[05:57:21] <pfred1> when I make garden tutors I make a little pyramid on top of them out of 4 sides of wood
[05:57:23] <MattyMatt> or 3
[05:57:43] <MattyMatt> 3 points to define a plane, yeah
[05:57:51] <pfred1> nah i need angle and bevels to set the saw at
[05:58:32] <MattyMatt> trigonometry is not hard
[05:58:43] <MattyMatt> even as a 3d problem
[05:59:12] <MattyMatt> turning it into a 2d problem is easiest tho
[05:59:51] <pfred1> I donno I got it all out of a woodworking magazine article
[06:00:06] <pfred1> had the formulas you used for the sides
[06:00:36] <MattyMatt> I suspect most CAD can tell you the angles
[06:00:37] <pfred1> when you plugged your numbers in I suppose it wasn't hard but coming to the equations is beyond me!
[06:01:05] <pfred1> to do it again I'd have to dig up the magazine
[06:06:45] <MattyMatt> topsolid looks great, but it can't beat blender's price
[06:07:27] <MattyMatt> blender needs some feature creep in the CAM direction
[06:10:06] <pfred1> Linux can use some CAD
[06:10:33] <MrSunshine> pfred1, so true =)
[06:12:38] <pfred1> MrSunshine its still a wicked environment though
[06:13:05] <pfred1> one of my fave quotes is even if Windows worked right I still wouldn't like it
[06:13:06] <MrSunshine> i was andwering on the the more tools etc thing ... dunno if you thought i answered on something else ÖP
[06:14:24] <pfred1> MrSunshine oh yes the more tools you have the more you need you have to maintain the tools you have
[06:14:50] <pfred1> I so envy people who own just a hammer and a slotted screwdriver
[06:14:53] <MrSunshine> what is a wicked environment? :)
[06:15:00] <MrSunshine> im to tired to read up :P
[06:15:03] <pfred1> MrSunshine Linux
[06:15:09] <MrSunshine> pfft
[06:15:16] <MrSunshine> linux sucks, but windows sucks more :)
[06:15:25] <MrSunshine> linux is so bloated its comming out of its ears
[06:15:25] <MattyMatt> is this hardware tools or software? seems to me you get php and need mysql
[06:15:27] <pfred1> I love how the buffer works in it
[06:15:59] <pfred1> Windows is like OK its highlighted does that mean you want to copy it?
[06:16:14] <pfred1> no I wanted to make it stand out for the guy behind me
[06:16:40] <pfred1> ofcourse i want to copy it!
[06:17:06] <MattyMatt> that's a minor tweak to the GUI. not an OS issue really
[06:17:21] <MattyMatt> I used to turn it off in Linux, until I got used to it
[06:18:34] <pfred1> MattyMatt theres lots of little things in Linux that I like like that though
[06:18:38] <MattyMatt> C'n'P was a bit fragmented on Linux for a while. KDE & Gnome apps didn't share when I started
[06:19:13] <pfred1> MattyMatt heh KDE and Gnome didn't exist when I started
[06:19:19] <pfred1> I used FVWM
[06:19:31] <MattyMatt> and I wish Alt-PrScn worked like it's supposed to (and does on Windows)
[06:19:33] <pfred1> and I even like that better than Windows!
[06:20:00] <pfred1> use xwd
[06:20:16] <pfred1> which is all Windows is doing
[06:20:31] <pfred1> treating the root like a bitmap
[06:21:16] <MattyMatt> I thought I'd fixed my pound key, but shift 3 = 3 again
[06:21:43] <pfred1> I haven't done keybindings in a while
[06:21:54] <pfred1> I think you do them in ~.bashrc though
[06:22:03] <pfred1> for them to stick
[06:22:12] <MattyMatt> I think my NV beta driver is overriding my config
[06:22:16] <pfred1> backspace used to be a nightmare in Linux
[06:22:28] <MattyMatt> ^H
[06:22:46] <pfred1> you'd always have to bind it in every distro to work right
[06:23:00] <pfred1> but I haven't seen that nosense in years now
[06:23:24] <MattyMatt> most apps still don't use the keypad enter
[06:23:26] <pfred1> I used to know a lot more about Linux
[06:23:45] <pfred1> but it works so well I don't have to mess with anything and I forget
[06:24:37] <pfred1> this system literally got hit by lightning and most everything fried in it I rebuilt it from junk parts and here it is
[06:24:54] <pfred1> rebuilt a kernel different CPU and it is fine
[06:25:00] <MattyMatt> this still isn't perfect, but it's close enough. I do still have a windows machine for VS tho. that's the best C debugger
[06:25:03] <pfred1> try that stunt in Windows
[06:25:49] <MattyMatt> I regularly moved hdd with win98 from one machine to another
[06:25:54] <pfred1> MattyMatt http://www.gnu.org/software/ddd/
[06:26:33] <pfred1> MattyMatt UNIX was written as a shell for C
[06:26:52] <pfred1> long before Windows was even a glint in Billys eyes
[06:27:03] <MattyMatt> I like single stepping through the source
[06:27:13] <pfred1> ddd does it
[06:27:19] <MattyMatt> and apart from RHIDE, I've never seen that done well with gcc
[06:27:52] <pfred1> you have to compile the code to do it
[06:28:01] <pfred1> but then it'll do it
[06:28:50] <MattyMatt> rhide on djgpp that is, even that never worked as well on linux, for me
[06:31:06] <pfred1> MattyMatt well the rest of the world seems to manage with posix compliance
[06:32:42] <tomp> get an old japanese cnc machine, it'll run NDOS, which is what he wrote before MSDOS, before Windows. thats where the money began.
[06:32:43] <pfred1> MattyMatt heck gdb will even debug in reverse
[06:32:49] <MattyMatt> I never got on with vi or emacs. if Linux apps didn't comply more with M$ keystrokes these days I'd still be on XP
[06:32:57] <tomp> NDOS = Nippon DOS
[06:33:26] <pfred1> MattyMatt so who says you have to use vi or emacs?
[06:34:04] <MattyMatt> 10 years ago, everyone did, apart from the brave sould who ported rhide
[06:34:16] <MattyMatt> and the nutters who liked pico
[06:35:00] <pfred1> MattyMatt and that matters now how?
[06:35:15] <pfred1> MattyMatt there were other editors back then too I know I used them
[06:35:28] <MattyMatt> it explains why I've only had a Linux workstation for 1 year now :)
[06:35:48] <MattyMatt> instead of 10, when I first tried
[06:36:25] <MattyMatt> every year or so, I'd install a random distro and say "not yet" but this time I didn't
[06:36:37] <pfred1> my first Linux distro was Slackware 95
[06:36:58] <pfred1> kernel .95 or something
[06:37:28] <pfred1> nah I stuck with it
[06:38:20] <pfred1> Linux is a bit like nice shoes a bit rough to break in but once you have them softened up some can't get rid of it
[06:38:36] <MattyMatt> I hated & loved M$ equally I think. I loved them in basic rom days, but became disillusioned over the years
[06:39:02] <pfred1> actually I think the first Windows I didn't mind was XP
[06:39:05] <pfred1> it almost works
[06:39:13] <pfred1> though it still sucks
[06:39:25] <pfred1> least it doesn't crash 10X a day
[06:39:38] <pfred1> it is still weak
[06:40:34] <MattyMatt> it suited a workstation better, in its day. Linux is great now, and both Gnome & KDE are good enough for joe user
[06:40:57] <pfred1> I don't like gnome though i do lke a lot of the apps
[06:41:24] <pfred1> least i have a choice not to have a smelly foot on my desktop
[06:42:11] <MattyMatt> I think I have a debian swirl
[06:42:24] <MattyMatt> it's hard to tell. I have a messy desktop
[06:42:44] <pfred1> I like Ubuntu better than Debian
[06:43:24] <pfred1> though this system predates Ubuntu
[06:43:30] <pfred1> so it isn't on it
[06:43:58] <pfred1> when i load new systems i go with Ubuntu these days
[06:44:08] <MattyMatt> I forget what annoyed me about Ubuntu. it was that sudo thing wher it asked for root pw but wanted my user one. That confused me
[06:44:26] <pfred1> I could chuck an Ubuntu CD into a gorilla cage and get a successful install out of it
[06:45:24] <MattyMatt> well I'll have Ubuntu soon enough when I get emc
[06:45:38] <pfred1> it was a wise choice on their part
[06:46:11] <pfred1> probably why M$ rolled Win7 out the door so quickly
[06:46:27] <pfred1> because Linux is looking so good these days
[06:46:56] <pfred1> really the thought of paying for software doesn't sit well with me
[06:47:34] <pfred1> to pay for a pattern that sits on my property
[06:47:38] <MattyMatt> I agree with paying for software in principle, because that's my "profession"
[06:48:08] <pfred1> and heck even after you pay for it you still don't own the stuff!
[06:48:12] <MattyMatt> you can always write your own, if you think it's a cost free process :)
[06:48:18] <pfred1> you just have the privledge to use it
[06:49:07] <pfred1> MattyMatt many hands make light work
[06:49:25] <MattyMatt> yeah for common needs
[06:49:41] <MattyMatt> and I suppose any need is common on a global scale
[06:50:01] <pfred1> MattyMatt yup whenever i have a problem I know I'm not the only one
[06:50:03] <MattyMatt> unless you're a total freak of nature
[06:50:23] <pfred1> MattyMatt I google it and sure enough others have had it and have figured it out too
[06:50:52] <pfred1> MattyMatt yeah commercial software is doomed with open source
[06:51:04] <pfred1> MattyMatt it is just a question of time and we have all of it
[06:51:06] <MattyMatt> programmers need paying somehow though
[06:51:40] <pfred1> actually eventually computers will program themselves they're already working on it
[06:51:46] <MattyMatt> at the moment it's funded backhanded through the university subsidies etc
[06:53:03] <MattyMatt> or a lot of open software is done for commercial gain but the originator is forced by poverty to GPL it
[06:53:15] <MattyMatt> e.g. blender
[06:53:19] <pfred1> netscape anyone?
[06:54:11] <pfred1> the last jab in billys eye when they released their code
[06:54:20] <MattyMatt> so, without a proper communist govt to give me a free apartment. I ain't doing GPL stuff
[06:54:42] <pfred1> MattyMatt it got Linus a nice paying job
[06:55:03] <MattyMatt> well communism got Stalin a nice job :)
[06:56:07] <tomp> archivist: are there any CSG examples for HeeksCAD?
[06:56:29] <pfred1> I don't know much at all about programming but if i have a problem in Linux and I really want it fixed i can work on it and i have some chance of making things right
[06:56:51] <MattyMatt> that's true in Windows too
[06:56:53] <pfred1> MattyMatt what chance do I have in the closed source world?
[06:57:04] <MattyMatt> use a disassembler
[06:57:21] <MattyMatt> reverse engineering ftw
[06:58:06] <pfred1> MattyMatt lots of stuff is made so that sort of thing doesn't wor
[06:58:12] <pfred1> work
[06:58:22] <MattyMatt> yeah they try
[06:58:37] <MattyMatt> they have a family to feed
[06:59:40] <pfred1> and all it seems they're interested in is maximizing profits
[07:00:08] <pfred1> I can remember a couple times having an issue and emailing an open source developer and getting swift resplies and action too!
[07:00:11] <MattyMatt> that's one way of describing the food in their kids bellies
[07:00:42] <pfred1> who do I email at Microsoft?
[07:00:53] <MattyMatt> billg
[07:01:00] <pfred1> they'd tell me to go take a flying leap
[07:01:13] <MattyMatt> he's the coder. the other 12000 are salespeople
[07:01:19] <pfred1> buy the next version and hope it works there
[07:01:38] <MattyMatt> employ a consultant, like Linus
[07:01:56] <pfred1> I'm convinced a lot of commercial software is purposly buggy just as an incentive to upgrade
[07:02:46] <MattyMatt> the commercial pressure is to release early
[07:03:00] <MattyMatt> this office isn't rent free
[07:03:07] <pfred1> no that is open sources mantra
[07:03:21] <pfred1> release early and release often
[07:04:51] <pfred1> but I'm telling you my Linux experience has been at times simply astonishing
[07:05:02] <MattyMatt> it's nice to have free support, but when another commercial firm, e.g. an engineering company, needs a solution quickly then you need paid consultants
[07:05:03] <pfred1> I mean the stuff will run until the wheels fall off PCs
[07:05:17] <pfred1> reboot every time the CPU fan burns out
[07:05:28] <pfred1> which takes about 130 days or so
[07:05:37] <pfred1> of 24/7 running
[07:06:18] <MattyMatt> hot swap redundant fans
[07:06:23] <MattyMatt> :)
[07:06:28] <pfred1> as far as support goes it doesn't get any better than Linux
[07:06:52] <pfred1> most Linux users are more than happy to help
[07:07:03] <MattyMatt> yeah most of M$'s success is its ubiquity. we need standards so we know what to support
[07:07:31] <pfred1> most people run M$ because it comes preinstalled on systems
[07:07:40] <MattyMatt> BeOS support engineers go hungry
[07:07:44] <pfred1> they wouldn't choose it if they had to
[07:08:22] <MattyMatt> they choose it because it runs the apps they want. games in particular
[07:08:39] <pfred1> when I was younger I liked video games
[07:08:52] <pfred1> but today I view games as masturbation with no pay off
[07:09:13] <MattyMatt> I've used that same simile
[07:09:35] <pfred1> put another way I can find better thngs to occupy my time with
[07:09:56] <pfred1> have something to show for it when all is said and done
[07:10:06] <MattyMatt> not at the retro conventions in front of my fans tho. I tell them games are great >:)
[07:10:53] <pfred1> I suppose they build some coordination maybe some problem solving skills
[07:11:21] <MattyMatt> writing them is an exercise in RT programming
[07:11:23] <pfred1> but really if people invested the time they spent playing games in a worthwhile task
[07:12:04] <MattyMatt> WoW is usually compared to heroin or crack
[07:12:22] <MattyMatt> but so is IRC :)
[07:13:04] <pfred1> but at least you can get something out of IRC
[07:13:14] <pfred1> maybe a link to some information or something
[07:13:31] <pfred1> something that maybe you'd have never found out about
[07:14:04] <MattyMatt> in theory. and for a subject like engineering you can't work at night anyway, but chatting about coding is very rarely better than coding
[07:15:30] <pfred1> MattyMatt you mean like firing up the 9" dangle grinder and having at it?
[07:15:56] <MattyMatt> at 7.22am in momma's house? not half
[07:16:30] <pfred1> yeah I remember for a time some game companies tried to get into Linux
[07:16:38] <pfred1> but it didn't work
[07:16:53] <pfred1> I don't think Linux users are gamers
[07:17:04] <MattyMatt> too many support issues that need the army of volunteers
[07:17:50] <pfred1> yeah an often complaint of Linux if all the different projects branches versions etc
[07:17:55] <MattyMatt> the 90% on Win32 are the obvious group to support
[07:18:46] <pfred1> like my system is too old to have any support now
[07:18:46] <MattyMatt> maybe 85% now. OSX has 10% and Linux a few percent
[07:19:21] <pfred1> I just need a whole new computer
[07:19:38] <pfred1> this sucker is dead
[07:19:47] <MattyMatt> that happens with windows too. XP is just nice and now they won't support it. I had to get SP2 from elsewhere for this thinkpad
[07:20:14] <pfred1> dang they already dropped XP support?
[07:20:39] <MattyMatt> yep, except on netbooks until next year
[07:20:54] <pfred1> I think with debian one nice part about it is you can upgrae forever
[07:21:02] <pfred1> upgrade
[07:21:13] <MattyMatt> yep
[07:22:22] <pfred1> but that horrible dep tool you have to use on install oh how i hate it!
[07:22:39] <MattyMatt> I use Synaptic
[07:22:44] <pfred1> no you have that so you can't have the other thing too!
[07:22:53] <pfred1> you can use that on install?
[07:23:13] <MattyMatt> installing apps
[07:23:23] <MattyMatt> the OS was netinstaller
[07:23:24] <pfred1> last time I tried Debian there was no way around I forget its name
[07:23:30] <pfred1> that horrid black and blue app
[07:23:45] <pfred1> oh how i loathe it!
[07:23:57] <MattyMatt> yeah that still happens, to get enough drivers for the netinstall
[07:24:13] <pfred1> yeah its miserable sets Linux back 10 years
[07:24:23] <MattyMatt> I used the same on Mandrake many years ago. didn't worry me
[07:24:42] <pfred1> well it just looks bad is all I'm saying
[07:25:08] <MattyMatt> it does
[07:25:09] <pfred1> I hope emc has the nice ubuntu installer
[07:25:19] <pfred1> so you get to see it
[07:25:35] <pfred1> because man the first time I saw it my jaw dropped
[07:25:48] <pfred1> I was like this is drop dead gorgeous
[07:25:51] <MattyMatt> Mandrake used to have a pretty installer, until it started to go wrong
[07:26:05] <MattyMatt> then you back to blue & black
[07:26:24] <pfred1> well Ubuntu is based on Debian so it is solid underneith
[07:26:26] <MattyMatt> just like Win95, iirc :)
[07:26:48] <MattyMatt> people forget how much grief getting a sound card working was
[07:26:57] <pfred1> but some of the more political or religious nonsense isn't so attached to it
[07:27:09] <pfred1> heck I paid for oss
[07:27:12] <pfred1> back in the day
[07:27:27] <pfred1> one thing I did pay for
[07:27:42] <pfred1> I paid for lots of linux stuffs
[07:27:53] <pfred1> bought a bunch of official redhats
[07:28:01] <pfred1> bought caldera
[07:28:12] <pfred1> ah what was that word processor?
[07:28:19] <pfred1> corel
[07:28:38] <MattyMatt> StarOffice?
[07:28:42] <pfred1> didn't feel so bad paying for any of it either
[07:28:45] <pfred1> yes
[07:28:49] <pfred1> that was the stuff
[07:29:02] <MattyMatt> it was still cheaper than M$O
[07:29:12] <pfred1> wasn't like I HAD to but I wanted to you know?
[07:29:26] <pfred1> and it is a different feeling
[07:29:42] <MattyMatt> but even so, it failed commercially, just because the Linux world has no cash for software
[07:29:45] <pfred1> didn't feel like I was getting my arm twisted
[07:30:00] <pfred1> well honestly the stuff did suck
[07:30:06] <pfred1> it was pretty buggy
[07:30:16] <pfred1> I think they even had to send me new discs
[07:30:29] <pfred1> because there was something horribly wrong with the first set
[07:30:50] <pfred1> I can't remember all the details now but I recall something along those lines
[07:31:08] <pfred1> slow man it was godawful slow!
[07:31:24] <pfred1> you could go have lunch while it opened up
[07:32:02] <MattyMatt> that's where M$ scored. they could tune the whole vertical stack from Excel to video driver
[07:32:28] <pfred1> open office is nice
[07:32:39] <pfred1> suns dig at mickeysoft
[07:33:05] <pfred1> I got it never use it but I got it
[07:33:22] <MattyMatt> yep, it's a viable replacement. lotsa schools teach it instead now, and some govts insist on it
[07:33:35] <MattyMatt> brazil & finland, iirc
[07:33:42] <MattyMatt> and guatemala
[07:33:45] <pfred1> yeah M$ will change file formats and you're stuck
[07:33:55] <pfred1> I can't believe people stand for it
[07:34:14] <MattyMatt> the penny is dropping, usually in govt archive depts
[07:34:33] <MattyMatt> "but we digitised it already, 20 years ago"
[07:35:06] <MattyMatt> "here's the floppies"
[07:35:12] <pfred1> heh
[07:35:54] <pfred1> never before in history has so many media formats come and gone so quickly
[07:36:24] <MattyMatt> CD is here for 100 years, at least the hole in the middle will stay the same
[07:36:31] <pfred1> we can still read Gilgamesh but can't read a floppy from 20 years ago
[07:36:59] <pfred1> and they call this progress
[07:38:08] <pfred1> I got my system set up so I can rip MP3s from vinyl records :)
[07:38:24] <MattyMatt> I hope to get an ST again. my OS is on 3.5" floppies but ST drives used the "other" bias setting so PC won't read them reliably, even after I've dealt with the 11 sector format
[07:39:01] <pfred1> you can do freaky things with floppies in Linux
[07:39:27] <pfred1> one distro craps like 1.7MB on a 1.44
[07:39:37] <MattyMatt> dunno where to find the jumper to change the bias tho
[07:39:49] <pfred1> does some bizarre sector stuff to the disks
[07:40:09] <pfred1> oh what was the name of that distro?
[07:40:24] <MattyMatt> yeah I did that on ST, so needed the 2MF driver in DOS to read them, but half the sectors appeared dead
[07:40:48] <MattyMatt> the bias is like the chrome switch on a tape deck
[07:41:22] <MattyMatt> 720k drives mostly had a jumper, dunno if any 1.4M ones do
[07:41:24] <pfred1> http://www.toms.net/rb/
[07:41:36] <pfred1> that is one awesome Linux distro!
[07:41:53] <pfred1> what blew me away is when I fired up emacs in it
[07:42:13] <pfred1> I mean it does so much
[07:42:22] <pfred1> all on one floppy!
[07:42:51] <pfred1> the guy just stuffs all that junk in there to be a wiseguy
[07:43:24] <MattyMatt> and he guilt tripped me into doing a backup today, in 2 secs flat
[07:43:54] <pfred1> I guess when your whole OS fits on a floppy how hard is it to backup?
[07:44:14] <MattyMatt> screw the OS. I have my ASSETS
[07:45:13] <MattyMatt> this machine was supposed to be my svn server, but I do all my work on it now
[07:45:33] <MattyMatt> thankfully most of my code is safe on SVN elsewhere
[07:45:45] <MattyMatt> but my gfx are mostly not
[07:48:29] <MattyMatt> there's a vanity element to not sharing unfinished art, as well as a financial one
[07:49:00] <pfred1> actually there's a motivational reason too
[07:49:17] <pfred1> like what if you showed someone an unfinished work and they were like it sucks
[07:49:29] <pfred1> how motivated would you be to keep working on it?
[07:49:36] <MattyMatt> that's the vanity :) nobody likes being told they suck
[07:49:56] <MattyMatt> ah but we take criticism of code, because that's more concrete
[07:50:02] <pfred1> hey a lot of what I make sucks don't mean i suck just means it sucks
[07:50:20] <MattyMatt> that's where art is different
[07:50:44] <MattyMatt> art comes from passion etc. sucky art = sucky soul
[07:50:53] <pfred1> I look at anything creative as "art"
[07:51:09] <pfred1> I mean all most people make is dents in sofas
[07:51:21] <MattyMatt> I create stuff to sell. useful or decorative, I don't care :)
[07:51:34] <pfred1> I used to do crafts
[07:51:46] <pfred1> but things changed in that business
[07:52:04] <MattyMatt> I prefer useful, but decorative is easier to spec. if the customer likes it, it's good enough
[07:52:08] <pfred1> 911 really knocked it down
[07:52:50] <pfred1> now i like to make things for myself
[07:53:00] <pfred1> because I appreciate them
[07:53:02] <MattyMatt> the credit crunch has hit the furniture trade
[07:53:18] <pfred1> you make furniture?
[07:53:38] <pfred1> I always wanted to make a chair
[07:53:52] <MattyMatt> not sold any, but plan to. momma has an "antique" shop where she recycles auctioned stuff
[07:54:13] <MattyMatt> never made a chair. plenty of tables tho
[07:54:25] <MattyMatt> square stuff. I'm good with a saw :)
[07:54:43] <pfred1> chairs they're the challenge they look so easy
[07:54:56] <pfred1> one like this: http://turnanewleafinc.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/chair.jpg
[07:55:02] <pfred1> that'd be a bitch to make!
[07:55:03] <MattyMatt> I break a lot of chairs
[07:55:17] <MattyMatt> cnc is for the curvy bits
[07:55:25] <pfred1> steam bent
[07:55:35] <pfred1> or fashioned green
[07:55:45] <pfred1> those bends aren't cut
[07:55:50] <MattyMatt> both, if its oak
[07:55:51] <pfred1> they'd fall apart
[07:56:20] <pfred1> that is one stylin chair
[07:56:40] <pfred1> if you were a name artist a chair like that'd go for bucks
[07:56:42] <MattyMatt> bit skinny. that style comes in all weights
[07:57:25] <MattyMatt> a good oak chair has a 1.5" thick seat or thereabouts
[07:57:47] <pfred1> chairs like that often maple
[07:58:33] <MattyMatt> not much maple here. closest is sycamore and that's usually used for food surfaces. it's naturally antibiotic
[07:58:50] <MattyMatt> very white wood
[07:59:28] <pfred1> maple is nice
[08:00:16] <MattyMatt> english oak can be very twisted, so a good chairmaker gets the twists to follow the bends, on shaped stuff like arms and square legs
[08:00:47] <pfred1> 8n england they'd be a bodger :)
[08:01:13] <MattyMatt> all english woodwork is based on shipbuilding really. beams and spars
[08:01:55] <MattyMatt> that's how I think, mostly, myself. my cnc has a port & starboard
[08:02:41] <pfred1> I'm a land lubber
[08:02:44] <MattyMatt> so you select your straight bit of oak for the mast, and bodge all the curvy bits for the rest
[08:03:09] <pfred1> I got oak like iron here
[08:03:17] <MattyMatt> red oak?
[08:03:31] <pfred1> I chopped down this one tree and when I went to pick it up I was like wholly am I weak?
[08:03:44] <pfred1> yes it is red
[08:03:45] <MattyMatt> that seems to much straighter, or maybe that's just what gets imported
[08:03:58] <pfred1> the stuff here is so heavy and hard
[08:04:23] <pfred1> something about the climate I think
[08:05:01] <pfred1> but commercial outfits don't even want to mess with the tuff
[08:05:36] <pfred1> hehe!
[08:05:47] <pfred1> check out this link all the wya at the bottom
[08:05:56] <pfred1> http://www.handmadetools.co.uk/gallery.htm
[08:06:06] <pfred1> This is where I lived for a year while doing my college course.
[08:06:08] <MattyMatt> I want lumps for my router
[08:07:29] <pfred1> MattyMatt lumps of what?
[08:08:13] <MattyMatt> wood hard as iron, close grained
[08:08:38] <MattyMatt> 18" x 14" x 8" please :) air mail
[08:09:14] <MattyMatt> used telegraph poles is what I'll get. mm creosote
[08:09:38] <MattyMatt> no free trees here
[08:09:55] <pfred1> I met a guy who makes duck decoys out of used pilings
[08:10:07] <MattyMatt> I don't see a price tag on the ones in the park tho >:)
[08:10:12] <pfred1> he has duplicator machines
[08:10:42] <MattyMatt> I was thinking about rigging mine as a probing scanner
[08:10:44] <pfred1> but phone poles are a step up from used pilings
[08:11:22] <pfred1> how can you have no trees?
[08:11:25] <pfred1> you live in a city?
[08:11:31] <MattyMatt> most of the wooden railway sleepers are gone now
[08:11:53] <MattyMatt> even more creosote on them
[08:12:03] <MattyMatt> and weedkiller, for fun
[08:12:22] <MattyMatt> yeah kinda in a city
[08:12:32] <MattyMatt> certainly urban
[08:12:54] <MattyMatt> long walk to find a green field
[08:13:29] <pfred1> wow a new picture!
[08:13:57] <pfred1> http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.689722,-75.275646&spn=0.000986,0.000878&t=h&z=20
[08:14:14] <pfred1> my neck of the jungle
[08:14:25] <pfred1> heck that is like this week
[08:14:42] <pfred1> I bet they took that last Saturday
[08:15:04] <pfred1> because thats when I was out at pumpkin chunkin
[08:15:04] <MattyMatt> mine still shows my car on the road. that makes it 2yo at least :)
[08:15:19] <pfred1> yeah thats when google updates every 2 years
[08:15:27] <MattyMatt> forgive me if I don't show mine. urban paranoia
[08:15:43] <pfred1> here we're all heavily armed ;)
[08:15:47] <MattyMatt> it's a house, in a street
[08:16:01] <pfred1> we all shoot in our yards
[08:16:09] <MattyMatt> is the curved bit on the left a swimming pool?
[08:16:16] <pfred1> if I shoot like towards the back no way i can hit anything
[08:16:45] <pfred1> in the back the big black thing
[08:16:54] <pfred1> that is how I knew it was a new pic its covered
[08:17:58] <MattyMatt> mm trees
[08:18:07] <pfred1> did I tell you or what?
[08:18:10] <pfred1> I got trees!
[08:18:18] <pfred1> thousands
[08:18:27] <MattyMatt> I got to buy a sheet of ply today. painful
[08:18:48] <pfred1> hey my trees don't grow sheets of plywood OK?
[08:18:59] <pfred1> I got to buy plywood when I want it too!
[08:19:32] <pfred1> but yeah sometimes I'll chop down a tree if I need a post
[08:20:03] <MattyMatt> that's what your john deer hexapod could do with your pines
[08:20:03] <pfred1> I got a John Deere weed whacker ;)
[10:18:05] <ChanServ> [#emc] "This is the #emc channel - talk related to the Enhanced Machine Controller and general machining. Website: http://www.linuxcnc.org/, wiki at http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/"
[10:18:18] <alex_joni> micges: thanks
[10:18:44] <micges> sure
[10:18:51] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[10:23:24] <piasdom_> g'mornin all
[10:24:56] <micges> hi
[10:31:08] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[10:41:14] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[12:26:11] <Valen> whats the consensus on planatary traction drives for rotary tables without backlash?
[12:27:13] <micges> Valen: you're asking if it works?
[12:27:25] <archivist> or accuracy or what
[12:28:19] <micges> Valen: I can only tell that it works perfect
[12:31:32] <Valen> all of the above lol
[12:31:39] <Valen> we are thinking about making one
[12:31:50] <Valen> using ball bearings for the planets
[12:32:03] <Valen> ball bearing races rather
[12:32:45] <Valen> I imagine the outer ring "gear" is heated for assembly?
[12:37:23] <Valen> know of any other amatures that have made any?
[13:55:39] <skunkworks> so... Shirley came down with the flu yesterday.. So no trip to spain. She is so upset.
[13:59:27] <Valen> flu means no trip to spain?
[13:59:37] <Valen> dude thats what drugs are for ;->
[14:01:53] <skunkworks> heh - there is a good chance that amsterdam or spain would quarenteen her..
[14:02:17] <Valen> are they all narky about swine flu?
[14:02:18] <skunkworks> she is coughing up a lung
[14:02:22] <Valen> bunch of pansies
[14:02:27] <skunkworks> heh
[14:02:37] <Valen> It went through here without a problem
[15:03:13] <yoyoek1> hi
[15:07:24] <JT-Work> * JT-Work waits for the question
[15:08:18] <cradek> welcome yoyoek1
[15:16:01] <JT-Work> * JT-Work has determined that the sheet metal is an integral part of the Hardinge and it has to be picked off the trailer with a fork lift...
[15:16:24] <cradek> it's still on the trailer!??
[15:16:39] <JT-Work> yes, I have been super busy with customers
[15:16:46] <eric_unterhausen> didn't it take JWPadnos a while to get his off the trailer?
[15:17:25] <cradek> * cradek can rent a forklift any old day, 7 miles from home
[15:17:42] <eric_unterhausen> I can too, only costs $250
[15:17:46] <cradek> if it's too heavy for the trailer, we just drive it
[15:18:13] <JT-Work> I can rent one to but I think I'll still use the backhoe to get it off the trailer
[15:18:52] <eric_unterhausen> is that like using a bulldozer to get it off?
[15:19:05] <cradek> that last 12" down to the pavement is the hardest part of the trip
[15:19:06] <eric_unterhausen> except with a backhoe you can dig a hole to put it in first
[15:19:44] <eric_unterhausen> I wish the long boom forklifts had better flotation tires
[15:19:45] <tomp> yoyoek1: how do you handle units of measure in blender? for example, how would you make a 1cm cube or 10mm hole?
[15:21:20] <yoyoek1> tomp: in blender are "units" :P generator generait default in in. not mm
[15:21:45] <yoyoek1> tomp: 1 unit in blender is now 1 in. in real
[15:22:25] <tomp> yoyoek1: wow, i didnt know there were units of measure in blender at all. thx
[15:22:35] <yoyoek1> tomp: on the begining off file you have lisen "#2=1.0 (scale)" you can rescale it if you whant
[15:23:09] <yoyoek1> tomp: in blenter there is no unit it is a float "number"
[15:23:10] <tomp> ok, so #2=25.4 gets me metric ?
[15:23:46] <yoyoek1> tomp: yyy you can replace G20 on line 1 to G21 and you will have metric
[15:24:22] <tomp> ok, np, you're talking about the nc output, and a unit-less generation, great, thx
[15:24:38] <yoyoek1> tomp: generator is outputing numbers it is to you how to interprate them
[15:26:33] <yoyoek1> ok let mill somting :P
[15:29:24] <tomp> in the video, you are very fast in making the shapes with blender, i am very slow :P
[15:31:05] <yoyoek1> tomp: what exacly do you whant to make ?
[15:49:51] <tomp> yoyoek1: i'm stuck doing other things right now. but i want to learn, so an example like this would be handy http://imagebin.ca/view/xYoyAgkz.html
[15:52:16] <tomp> it'd be best for me to finish looking at HeeksCNC and Gcam before i begin learning Blender and MGcodeGenerator
[15:54:02] <tomp> btw, your new posts of the milled monkey face is impressive
[15:58:58] <gweepprefect> greetings all
[16:00:37] <yoyoek1> tomp: THX
[16:00:49] <JT-Work> hi
[16:07:15] <gweepprefect> tomp: you were around the other day for my saga, right?
[16:07:39] <gweepprefect> i cleared up one very important thing: my leadscrews are imperial, not metric! things look much more sane now.
[16:08:27] <gweepprefect> even though i tried that scaling and it didn't seem to look right at the time, i chalk it up to debugging craziness.
[16:08:50] <gweepprefect> it's not perfect, but it's much closer to what it should be.. i think some fine tuning will improve it.
[16:21:27] <tomp> gweepprefect: congratulations! now the linear comp may tweak it in.
[16:22:11] <gweepprefect> i need to see if i can borrow my friend's DRO kit that he never installed on his mill so i can do some calibration more easily
[16:23:28] <gweepprefect> i did some very quick backlash calculations and enabled software backlash compensation and cut some circles in some material - they came out round to within a fair tolerance.
[17:33:09] <EbiDK> EbiDK is now known as EbiDK|AWAY
[17:37:30] <tarzan_> software backlash compensation? how does it work?
[18:19:48] <MattyMatt> in principle? by adding extra steps when reversing
[18:20:18] <MattyMatt> just enough to take up the slack
[18:24:58] <MattyMatt> if it was really fancy, it could keep a value for each part of the axis, to cope with uneven wear
[18:25:48] <archivist> its also a pain in the A
[18:27:14] <Jymmm> xis?
[18:27:30] <gweepprefect> heh
[18:27:53] <gweepprefect> is it a pain for developing the motion engine, or a pain in the neck for other reasons?
[18:28:34] <archivist> backlash breaks tools and causes inaccuracy
[18:28:56] <gweepprefect> ah, yes, backlash in general is certainly a pain.
[18:29:00] <archivist> any lost motion effects accuracy
[18:29:31] <gweepprefect> i may eventually go to dual ball nuts on my mill, but it comes at the expense of travel and a dent in my wallet
[18:29:32] <archivist> loose gibs can mean rotation of a table
[18:30:24] <MattyMatt> while you've got a working mill, grind your own ballscrews
[18:30:46] <gweepprefect> yikes.. that sounds like more of a project than i'd want to take on
[18:31:40] <MattyMatt> trickiest bit would be dressing the grindwheel to the ball radius
[18:33:04] <gweepprefect> i think i can come up with a few more things that'd be tricky, i'm very much a beginning machinist
[18:33:28] <MattyMatt> then bolt the angle grinder to the cross slide on a lathe >:)
[18:33:41] <MattyMatt> I'm barely a beginner, but I think big
[18:33:50] <gweepprefect> no lathe just yet, but it's probably the next machine purchase
[18:34:07] <MattyMatt> I'm planning to cast my lathe
[18:35:59] <MattyMatt> or build it into the back wall of my mill, now I'm making it enclosed
[18:38:04] <MattyMatt> a single chuck that can either spin fast for turning, or slow & accurate for B axis
[18:38:30] <MattyMatt> probably belt change to switch modes
[18:39:40] <MattyMatt> arrgh. I'd lose Y motion that way
[18:40:17] <MattyMatt> moving table machine
[18:41:48] <MattyMatt> I'd have to turn the table into a selfcontained lathe. not an unappealing idea if realistic
[18:44:11] <gweepprefect> i've seen that done
[18:44:50] <gweepprefect> if you didn't mind setting it up when you wanted to use it, you could attach it to the table with t-slot hardware, and take it off when you need the whole table
[18:46:04] <gweepprefect> you'd just have to spend a while doing alignment setup each time you put it on the table.. not unlike a vise
[18:46:49] <MattyMatt> I cut some convincing T slots freehand with a dremel. I might do them on my wooden table
[18:49:28] <MattyMatt> or I'll just nail the work down :)
[18:50:24] <MattyMatt> gotta remember why I chose wood for the first one
[18:53:58] <tomp> build the tslots up... just make a plate with grooves, then put plates on top. between the plates, the slots is exposed. because the plates extend past the groove, the slot becomes a 't'
[18:54:01] <MattyMatt> a lightweight rotary table permanently at the back of the table would be OK
[18:54:45] <MattyMatt> tomp yeah. I thought of that, and then I thought that's best waiting till the machine can do it to itself
[18:55:16] <MattyMatt> mill the flats enough for steel plates on top
[18:55:50] <MattyMatt> and then grind its own surface :)
[18:56:56] <tomp> if its a small machine, make workplates that go in & out. you can be setting one up while another is being cut.
[18:57:38] <MattyMatt> the whole table lifts out. I could make alternates
[18:57:58] <MattyMatt> 12 bolts and the drive nut to loosen
[18:58:37] <tomp> no need for tslots. maybe some cross dowels to get xyz&rotation angle to repeat.
[18:59:37] <gweepprefect> i'm trying to dream up a simple fixture for machining 19" rack faceplates on my mill that doesn't have quite enough X travel (just shy of 16")
[19:00:30] <MattyMatt> mine is 14.5" but about 18" Y
[19:00:49] <gweepprefect> that's an unusual setup
[19:01:10] <archivist> a rotating table on top and do it in two halves
[19:01:20] <MattyMatt> it was originally 600x600mm using equal screws for X & Y
[19:02:18] <gweepprefect> i thought about a rotating table, or making a very simple dovetail arrangement with locks and end stops
[19:03:22] <MattyMatt> then I took off 200mm from Y, to make it stiffer with the shelf sliders, the I bought a ballscrew unit with 14.5" travel, so I lost lots of X, so added 100mm back to Y for no sound reason but it has worked
[19:04:03] <gweepprefect> sounds like a bit of a frankenmachine, do you have any pictures?
[19:04:30] <MattyMatt> ah yes. the sound reason was to make the beams exactly 1m, so they can be replaced easily with extrusion later
[19:04:58] <MattyMatt> no pics yet. I'll take some tonight
[19:05:48] <MattyMatt> I need more light in the room now I've put solid side on the machine
[19:07:22] <MattyMatt> I'll screenshot blender, which shows the right frame dimensions but has old plan X & Z
[20:33:25] <christel> [Global Notice] Hi all, due to the memleak issues we are experiencing with hyperion (our ircd) we will be taking a handful of servers out of rotation for the production network in order to utilise them to better test our new ircd; ircd-seven. Affected users will be notified seperately. Apologies for the inconvenience.
[20:57:08] <mikegg> how do you connect multiple pins to iocontrol.0.emc-enable-in ?
[20:57:23] <mikegg> net parport.0.pin-11.in => iocontrol.0.emc-enable-in
[20:57:30] <mikegg> net hm2_5i20.0.gpio.024.in => iocontrol.0.emc-enable-in
[20:57:42] <mikegg> like these two lines for instance...
[20:57:53] <celeron55_> i don't know anything about hal but i think some kind of logic is needed for that
[20:58:15] <mikegg> I just want either of those two pins to trigger an e-stop
[20:58:16] <celeron55_> which will define what is done if one of then is on and the other is off
[20:59:39] <alex_joni> mikegg: or2
[21:00:04] <alex_joni> connect parport.* to or2.0.in0
[21:00:20] <skunkworks> look at the http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.3/html/man/man9/or2.9.html
[21:00:22] <alex_joni> connect hm2* to or2.0.in1
[21:00:30] <skunkworks> wow - I am slow
[21:00:41] <alex_joni> and or2.0.out to iocontrol
[21:01:10] <alex_joni> skunkworks: and I'm only typing with my left hand
[21:01:17] <celeron55_> and that's is you don't have or2.0 used anywhere else :P
[21:01:28] <skunkworks> alex_joni: ;) I bet you do that a lot now..
[21:01:28] <celeron55_> if it is, use or2.1 or some which isn't used
[21:01:46] <alex_joni> skunkworks: feedinh time ;)
[21:01:55] <alex_joni> feeding*
[21:42:50] <mikegg> my goodness that was complicated
[21:42:57] <mikegg> I think I got it, thanks guys
[21:43:14] <mikegg> trial and error would never have worked for that!
[21:43:26] <cradek> what?
[21:44:48] <mikegg> I needed to read two pins for an e-stop input
[21:44:59] <mikegg> had to or2 and not some stuff