#emc | Logs for 2009-10-28

[00:05:29] <andypugh> Won't make menuconfig break my existing kernel (at the very least change the name, which seems to break EMC2)
[00:12:07] <andypugh> No matter, I installed the kernel from a .deb, so I don't have the option
[00:15:16] <andypugh> Ignore that, my newbishness was showing.
[00:17:13] <cradek> yay, michael h also reports threading works right in git-master
[00:17:28] <cradek> you cannot imagine how tickled I'd be to never have to "fix" that code again
[00:18:54] <andypugh> I can imagine
[00:19:12] <andypugh> However, I don't seem to be able to use 2.4-pre :-(
[00:19:21] <cradek> why?
[00:19:40] <cradek> (dare I ask?)
[00:19:46] <andypugh> Because my kernel doesn't include parport_pc
[00:19:57] <cradek> that kernel is a curse
[00:20:35] <andypugh> Yes, but it does give me 2.5uS latency rather than 25uS latency
[00:21:04] <cradek> does that actually make an important difference in your application? 25uS is usually quite fine
[00:21:13] <cradek> good, even
[00:21:25] <cradek> that number only matters if it matters
[00:21:39] <andypugh> Yes, well, that's a fair point, but I paid for that CPU, I don't like it sitting there idle.
[00:21:40] <cradek> (ha)
[00:21:56] <cradek> oh it's just a matter of aesthetics!? :-)
[00:22:03] <andypugh> Largely.
[00:22:24] <andypugh> Having the RT stuff running in a dedicated CPU just seems right.
[00:22:33] <cradek> I definitely sympathize
[00:22:47] <cradek> however it's an extremely huge pain building that kernel and getting it right
[00:23:04] <cradek> a crap-shoot
[00:23:12] <andypugh> I know, I wasted months trying to do it
[00:23:31] <cradek> that's dedication! I'd quit after only days :-/
[00:24:26] <andypugh> I am puzzled why 2.3.4 specifically excludes parport_pc and 2.4_pre requires it...
[00:24:43] <cradek> andypugh: because 2.4 is going to be smarter about enumerating and sharing the parports in the machine
[00:24:51] <cradek> no more searching for the right base addresses
[00:25:06] <cradek> for instance, "would you like parport #1 or #2? I found them for you!" in stepconf
[00:25:39] <cradek> it's a huge usability improvement, and it even allows people to use their parallel printers etc.
[00:26:37] <andypugh> So, if I am feeling brave. Can I compile an rtaismp kernel like the one I have now, give it a new name, boot into it, then rebuild 2.4-pre on that kernel without breaking my existing one (that will work with 2.3.0 installed from .deb)
[00:27:05] <andypugh> I should have said rtaismp+pport
[00:27:09] <cradek> yes one can certainly do that
[00:27:18] <andypugh> Would anyone sane so that?
[00:27:21] <cradek> whether you can do it remains to be seen (sorry, just being honest)
[00:27:23] <andypugh> (do)
[00:27:25] <cradek> certainly
[00:27:43] <cradek> you can have any number of kernels installed
[00:27:57] <andypugh> I have built several kernels. They all booted, but none yet have run rtai
[00:28:22] <cradek> if that's the only change you make from the working .config, it is likely it will even be compatible
[00:28:43] <andypugh> I am guessing that just adding a device driver to a kernel that is rtai + smp should be straightforward
[00:29:09] <cradek> yes, adding parport should be only one or two things you change in the config
[00:29:15] <andypugh> Should it be included or modularised?
[00:29:20] <cradek> I'm surprised it was excluded - I have never done that
[00:29:25] <cradek> it should be a module
[00:33:55] <andypugh> Hmm, where do I define the new kernel name? I am nervous about the prospect of over-writing
[00:36:04] <andypugh> (Found it)
[00:38:13] <andypugh> And it won't make. "No rule to make target /include/config/auto.conf"
[00:43:48] <andypugh> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Debian_Etch_Compile_RTAI#Configuring_kernel
[00:44:12] <andypugh> Says to use make-kpkg. Is that advice still current?
[00:56:52] <Neo_The_User> anypugh: hi im back. any questions for me?
[00:57:31] <andypugh> Yes and no. I found that my kernel does not have pport_pc
[00:57:48] <Neo_The_User> ok you need that on. ill figure out a way.
[00:58:04] <andypugh> recompile kernel...
[00:58:11] <Neo_The_User> and make-kpkg is the way to build a deb
[00:58:30] <Neo_The_User> and you'll have to. thats like trying to add ext4 support to a kernel which only supports ext2 in the config
[00:58:48] <Neo_The_User> new option in kernel = recompilation
[00:58:55] <andypugh> Well, I think I have had enough for tonight.
[00:59:34] <Neo_The_User> just give me a sec
[01:00:08] <andypugh> I am doing everything with VNC and it looks like editing the menu.lst to reboot from the normal, non-smp kernel hasn't worked, so I can't get to the CNC PC without a trip to the garage.
[01:01:01] <Neo_The_User> device drivers > parralel port supprt (Y)
[01:01:12] <Neo_The_User> then set it to compile and enjoy your break
[01:01:16] <Neo_The_User> :)
[01:01:23] <andypugh> Yeah, I did that, but neither make nor make-kpkg run
[01:01:34] <Neo_The_User> make clean first
[01:01:51] <andypugh> I did that for make-kpkg
[01:02:07] <Neo_The_User> post output to pastebin or 3 > lines here
[01:02:38] <andypugh> As I said, the linux machine is in the garage and not booted..
[01:02:46] <andypugh> And it is 1am
[01:03:03] <Neo_The_User> ohh
[01:03:04] <andypugh> Oh, what the heck, I won't sleep anyway...
[01:07:18] <Neo_The_User> seems as though your in the wrong directory and gcc cant find the makefile hence "No rule to make target"
[01:07:57] <Neo_The_User> if you want to compile from different directory, you will need to do something like make -C (or lower case c i forget) and then the directory of which you would like to compile
[01:12:06] <andypugh> Well, the plan to see if EMC would run with the standard kernel (with parport, presumably) fell at the first hurdle. I had forgotten that EMC will only run on the exact kernel it was compiled on
[01:13:13] <andypugh> So, I go to the usr/srs/linux-headers.....rtaismp directory and sudo make menuconfig?
[01:13:20] <andypugh> Add in the p-port..
[01:14:19] <Neo_The_User> no.
[01:14:42] <Neo_The_User> the kernel source itself. not the headers source, or anything. the actual linux-2.6.XX.X kernel
[01:15:15] <andypugh> Yeah, sorry, misremebered while waiting for VNC to wake up
[01:16:50] <andypugh> No, actually, I only have headers directories in usr/src. Where should I be looking?
[01:17:46] <Neo_The_User> oh that explains it. you need to download the actual kernel source
[01:18:14] <Neo_The_User> if you are planing to use RTAI, you'll want to download you can get it from kernel.org on their ftp site :)
[01:18:59] <andypugh> No way. I have already wasted months of my life trying to make a patched rtai kernel from a vanilla one
[01:19:26] <Neo_The_User> is vanilla
[01:20:18] <Neo_The_User> but if you know C pretty well you can port the RTAI rtai patch toward other versions as well (besides 2.6.24, and some others)
[01:20:29] <andypugh> Yes, and you stay up till 4am then find that the RTAI libraries contain hard-coded paths and will never work unless your kernel is exactly the right name and in exactly the right place.
[01:20:47] <andypugh> Been there, done that.
[01:21:02] <andypugh> And I have never used C in my life.
[01:21:04] <Neo_The_User> the kernel source just needs to be named 'linux'
[01:21:21] <andypugh> Not my experience
[01:21:45] <Neo_The_User> well you need or some version of a kernel that is supported by RTAI if you don't know C
[01:22:41] <andypugh> As I said, I spent months when I first stated with EMC trying to build a kernel that supported RTAI and SMP, and never got one to work.
[01:23:02] <andypugh> cradek earlier said it was a fiddly and thankless task...
[01:23:23] <Neo_The_User> there are many kernels already supported by rtai
[01:23:33] <Neo_The_User> i can see him saying it would be a thankless task myself
[01:25:27] <Neo_The_User> btw, here is my HOWTO on compiling an RTAI compatible kernel: http://neo-technical.wikispaces.com/emc2-arch :)
[01:25:29] <andypugh> I can apt-get emc2 v 2.3.4 and boot into the non-smp kernel, live with the 25uS latency and forget about the wasted CPU
[01:26:26] <andypugh> Or I can build 2.3.4 on my smp kernel from git. (which ought to work)
[01:26:43] <Neo_The_User> a kernel from git master definitly wont work
[01:27:03] <andypugh> eh?
[01:27:21] <andypugh> I don't think kernels come with emc git pulls?
[01:27:36] <Neo_The_User> out of all the total kernel releases, only very few are officialy supported by RTAI
[01:27:53] <andypugh> I have two of them,
[01:28:08] <Neo_The_User> but you need PC_PARPORT
[01:28:41] <Neo_The_User> so you can either modify your kernel source that you already have somewhere that supports RTAI or get a different kernel and apply the RTAI patches
[01:29:01] <Neo_The_User> well.. not modify the source, just the config and re compile
[01:29:38] <andypugh> I have the 2.6.24-16-rtai that comes with the live cd and a 2.6.24-16-rtaismp that works with smp and any version of emc that doesn't need parport_pc
[01:30:05] <Neo_The_User> its not necessary required IIRC
[01:30:35] <andypugh> No, you only need parport_pc for the 2.4-pre version of emc2
[01:30:49] <Neo_The_User> but you might want PC_PARPORT... andypugh> Can I install parport_pc by hand?
[01:30:51] <andypugh> previous versions specifically unload it.
[01:31:04] <Neo_The_User> you cant unload something that does not exist
[01:31:32] <Neo_The_User> such as the PC_PARPORT module
[01:31:53] <andypugh> I think it is in the 2.6.24-16-rtai kernel, but for some reason not in ....rtaismp
[01:32:17] <Neo_The_User> check the config file in /boot
[01:32:51] <Neo_The_User> cat config-2.6.24-16-rtai | grep CONFIG_PC_PARPORT
[01:33:18] <Neo_The_User> erm.. CONFIG_PARPORT_PC
[01:34:29] <andypugh> Yes, it is present in ....rtai but not ....rtaismp
[01:34:59] <Neo_The_User> so if you want smp, you will need to download a package like rtai-kernel-source-smp or something
[01:35:09] <Neo_The_User> and then re compile that exact source package
[01:35:16] <andypugh> Perhaps there is a reason for this, as I never managed to get a working smp rtai kernel built with a parport installed (I assumed it was required)
[01:35:43] <Neo_The_User> i got RTAI working on arch without parport
[01:36:12] <andypugh> Yes, the question is if it is possible to get it working _with_ parport and smp?
[01:37:06] <Neo_The_User> yes
[01:37:36] <andypugh> ie, did whoever created the files at http://linuxcnc.org/experimental/hardy/smp/ have a good reason for excluding that module?
[01:38:06] <Neo_The_User> maybe it was a mistake
[01:38:13] <Neo_The_User> try turning it on in the smp kernel
[01:38:21] <andypugh> I can't
[01:38:57] <andypugh> I am not saying it is impossible, I am saying that I am incapable.
[01:39:57] <Neo_The_User> i must switch computers. ill contact you again in a bit
[01:44:54] <andypugh> Perhaps I will give it a go tomorrow.
[01:45:03] <andypugh> I used http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMC_With_Custom_Kernel
[01:45:23] <andypugh> but only steps 6.1 onwards using the precompiled .debs.
[01:45:38] <Neo_The_User> you cannot recompile a kernel with only debs
[01:45:48] <Neo_The_User> you need to the source and you will need to generate your own .debs
[01:45:58] <andypugh> Yes, that is what I am saying
[01:46:19] <andypugh> I have then compiled a patched emc2 to run on that precompiled kernel.
[01:46:31] <andypugh> I am not all that far from meeting in the middle.
[01:47:13] <andypugh> Thinking back, my problems last time might have been attempting to run EMC on my custom kernel without recompiling it.
[01:47:19] <andypugh> (EMC, that is)
[01:47:35] <Neo_The_User> i didnt need to re compile emc
[01:48:02] <andypugh> I assume you didn't change the kernel name then?
[01:48:16] <Neo_The_User> the API string? no
[01:48:34] <andypugh> installed emc will only run on 6.12.24-16-rtai
[01:48:46] <Neo_The_User> 6.12?
[01:49:04] <andypugh> Whatever, it's late..
[01:49:11] <Neo_The_User> alright good night
[01:49:27] <andypugh> 2.6.24-16
[01:51:39] <andypugh> People who say Linus isn't usable by consumer-type users seem to have a point
[01:52:41] <toastydeath> linus himself?
[01:53:08] <andypugh> I am finding this web of interdependability hard to fathom as a long-time Mac/windows user
[01:53:11] <skunkworks> andypugh: if you used the stock emc install....
[01:53:25] <skunkworks> :)
[01:53:37] <andypugh> But the stock emc install doesn't have the new, working, threading patch
[01:54:17] <skunkworks> but if you used the stock install - then git it... (I am not a linux person and do it all the time)
[01:55:27] <andypugh> Yes, that ought to work, and is the plan.
[01:55:57] <andypugh> It just seems odd to have no SMP support when nearly every PC nowadays is at least dual core
[01:56:05] <skunkworks> like coordinate rotation... http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/testing/rotate1.png
[01:56:30] <toastydeath> wtf kernel doesn't have smp
[01:56:39] <toastydeath> what kind of crazy distro are you using
[01:57:06] <skunkworks> for the emc2 kernal to work for most hardware - they make the kernel 'safe'
[01:57:18] <skunkworks> (rtai)
[01:58:38] <andypugh> Yes, you can either install from the CD or with apt-get and have no SMP, or patch your own rtai kernel and build emc from source...
[01:59:29] <andypugh> And you can upgrade a working installation on an smp kernel with apt-get and totally break it. I did last night.
[02:03:51] <andypugh> However, booting into the normal ...rtai kernel and apt-get installing emc2 2.3.4 should get me going again when my metal order arrives, but in the meantime the postal strikes are giving me time for fiddling.
[02:05:27] <toastydeath> there are postal strikes?
[02:06:31] <andypugh> in the UK, yes
[02:06:44] <toastydeath> oh
[02:07:53] <Neo_The_User> wow
[02:09:33] <andypugh> Anyway, if I don't sleep soon I won't be paid enough to afford any metal, so I best be off.
[02:40:09] <MattyMatt> I can't afford any metal, but at least I'm on IRC at 3am \o/
[02:40:37] <MattyMatt> and watching plasmacam vids
[02:42:22] <MattyMatt> momma got a box of computer junk from the auction. 10Mhz vellemen scope, yay. me grab
[03:02:51] <L84Supper> has anyone ever demoed EMC at any of the trade shows such as Fabtech or Manufacturing Week?
[03:03:40] <Neo_The_User> when you want to open up a .gnc file, how do you make emc default to a certain directory?
[03:04:14] <Neo_The_User> emc keeps trying to open up the .gnc files from /usr/share/doc which makes no sense
[03:07:33] <SWPadnos> there's a setting in the ini file
[03:07:51] <dgarr> ngc files are in a directory specified in the ini file [DISPLAY]PROGRAM_PREFIX (i think)
[03:08:00] <SWPadnos> NC_FILES_DIR or some such, which should point to either ~/emc2/nc_files, or /usr/share/somewhere/nc_files/
[03:08:14] <SWPadnos> right, program prefix - that's it :)
[03:09:31] <L84Supper> not sure if we have the emc-environment set up right
[03:09:56] <L84Supper> don't recall running the emc-environment script
[03:10:09] <SWPadnos> for run-in-place?
[03:10:15] <L84Supper> yes
[03:10:31] <SWPadnos> ok, you only have to do it once (per shell), even if you recompile several times
[03:11:53] <L84Supper> I'm trying to figure out HAL now
[03:12:18] <SWPadnos> you're an EE, right?
[03:12:22] <SWPadnos> (or you work with some)
[03:12:26] <Neo_The_User> i didn't do --enable-run-in-place ...if that matters
[03:12:38] <SWPadnos> did you make install then?
[03:12:46] <L84Supper> yes, I get the structure, I'm trying to se how it fits and plays with EMC
[03:13:05] <Neo_The_User> SWPadnos, yes. to /usr
[03:13:32] <SWPadnos> ok, then you shouldn't need to source emc-environment
[03:14:30] <SWPadnos> then again, I don't know if the paths are correctly set up by make install (and of course you'd need to either re-login or reboot or something to get them set correctly in your shell
[03:14:32] <SWPadnos> )
[03:14:51] <Neo_The_User> or.. just run ldconfig as root :)
[03:15:17] <SWPadnos> program paths don't get changed by that :)
[03:17:33] <tomp> std emc from cd has .ngc files in /usr/share/emc/ncfiles (which doesnt make sense to me but its de facto )
[03:17:57] <cradek> that is where "samples" officially go
[03:18:08] <L84Supper> we were just making sure the demos ran correctly
[03:18:10] <SWPadnos> newer installs may have them in /usr/share/local/examples or some such
[03:18:27] <SWPadnos> or is that the configs
[03:18:39] <cradek> heh, I lost track too
[03:18:59] <SWPadnos> it's documented somewhere, like at the LSB website
[03:19:41] <L84Supper> is there a way to see how our odd latency anomaly will behave by running the servo_sim?
[03:19:58] <SWPadnos> no, I don't think so
[03:20:19] <L84Supper> I'll try it on real hardware tomorrow
[03:20:40] <SWPadnos> the sim configs (even the ones that run realtime) are synchronized - all the HAL operations happen in the same threads, so the timing appears to be ideal even if it really isn't
[03:22:01] <L84Supper> some older Athlon boards are working fine, jitter is 10uS with the live 8.04 CD
[03:22:11] <SWPadnos> cool
[03:22:31] <Neo_The_User> On my MS-7267 Intel Core 2 Duo im stuck at 65uS heh
[03:22:35] <L84Supper> all have ATI AGP gpu cards
[03:22:44] <SWPadnos> Alex got an Athlon board of some sort down to a stable (but slow UI) 7 uS base thread
[03:23:16] <SWPadnos> it may not have been doing any real work in the base thread though
[03:24:14] <L84Supper> wierd but when he runs glxgears the time drops to ~1uS
[03:25:09] <SWPadnos> ah, a core 2 duo with an SMP kernel, right?
[03:25:18] <L84Supper> yeah
[03:25:24] <Neo_The_User> yes with 1 core dedicated to RTAI
[03:25:35] <SWPadnos> in that case a do-nothing shell script would also help the latency a lot
[03:25:52] <Neo_The_User> like random output going to /dev/null?
[03:25:53] <SWPadnos> like this: while true ; do echo "nothing" > /dev/null ; done
[03:25:59] <Neo_The_User> :)
[03:26:12] <SWPadnos> not random, that will stall eventually since you won't have enough entropy in the system
[03:26:53] <SWPadnos> I saw that on a core 2 duo system I made as well
[03:26:58] <Neo_The_User> SWPadnos, that command solved it too :)
[03:27:07] <SWPadnos> the final product actually had that script in the initscripts
[03:27:13] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:27:26] <SWPadnos> yeah, the latencies went from ~2000 to ~200 ns when I did that
[03:27:36] <SWPadnos> with spikes to 1600 or so I think
[03:27:49] <Neo_The_User> any possible way i set the CPU to be always doing something in the kernel?
[03:27:57] <SWPadnos> run that script
[03:28:01] <Neo_The_User> like changing SLUB to something else or changin IO delays, etc?
[03:28:03] <SWPadnos> idle=poll might do it
[03:28:18] <SWPadnos> hmmm, no, it doesn't - I think I tried that
[03:28:34] <Neo_The_User> oh ok.
[03:28:50] <tomp> 1.6uS? are any of these systems ( few microsec latecy) documented anywhere so other people could assemble the same?
[03:29:07] <SWPadnos> I can tell you what I did, but it's unlikely to be useful
[03:29:14] <SWPadnos> since it had no network and no video in that system
[03:29:15] <Neo_The_User> maybe if i pre empt the kernel lock (cant spell it)
[03:29:27] <SWPadnos> (either would cause ~16000 spikes)
[03:29:44] <SWPadnos> SMP should already be preemptible
[03:29:58] <Neo_The_User> the RCU is still set the classic though
[03:30:04] <Neo_The_User> *set to
[03:30:09] <SWPadnos> what is RCU in this context?
[03:30:59] <SWPadnos> ah - read-copy-update
[03:31:01] <L84Supper> any suggestions for my setup with 7i43+7i33+7i37, running two linear servos from point A to point B, only 1 servo runs at a time
[03:31:19] <tomp> no vid no network, how did you get the data? serial link?
[03:31:29] <SWPadnos> L84Supper, with the 120 uS latency from time to time?
[03:31:42] <SWPadnos> tomp, yes, that's why I wrote the original modbus driver
[03:31:43] <L84Supper> swpandos : yes
[03:31:49] <tomp> tomp is now known as tom3p
[03:31:51] <SWPadnos> just use it, with no base thread
[03:32:18] <SWPadnos> it should be fine, unless you see anything much longer than that (PID phase issues might start to show up then)
[03:32:28] <Neo_The_User> make menuconfig > general setup > RCU subsystem
[03:32:56] <Neo_The_User> http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/tip/linux-2.6-tip.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/core/rcu
[03:33:05] <L84Supper> ok, with some tweaks we saw 300uS, but even the 8.04 cd was never over 130uS
[03:33:19] <SWPadnos> eek
[03:33:27] <SWPadnos> I'd let that run overnight
[03:33:32] <SWPadnos> or for a week
[03:33:47] <L84Supper> we have arch behaving at ~120uS just like the live cd
[03:34:10] <SWPadnos> latest kernel?
[03:34:20] <Neo_The_User>
[03:34:42] <SWPadnos> have you tried this test yet? http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=124469647405168&q=raw
[03:34:55] <SWPadnos> (on a non-RTAI kernel)
[03:34:56] <Neo_The_User> with some nasty hacks put in by me. pulled some code in from zen, set some dangerous compiler flags, etc
[03:35:27] <SWPadnos> ok, take a vanilla kernel, apply that patch and run the test (overnight maybe)
[03:35:46] <SWPadnos> that will tell you the latency that is caused by non-OS-related things
[03:36:32] <Neo_The_User> thanks :)
[03:36:51] <SWPadnos> if that peaks at a number significantly below the 120 uS or whatever you see with the RTAI kernel, then more hacking is in order :)
[03:37:05] <SWPadnos> if not, don't bother
[03:37:17] <L84Supper> with AGP Fast Write disabled the jitter did drop to 80uS , so I have a felling that the onboard GPU may be the problem
[03:37:27] <SWPadnos> could well be
[03:37:37] <Neo_The_User> too bad we cant kill the vga bios
[03:37:38] <L84Supper> feeling even
[03:38:00] <SWPadnos> incidentally, I haven't ever run that latency test, it was posted to the list by someone who is familiar with kernel development (nostly a BSD variant I think)
[03:38:28] <L84Supper> my coreboot rom image didn't support apic yet on this board
[03:39:35] <L84Supper> 8.04 CD only had xt-pic going, with the custom ARCH kernel we got APIC going
[03:40:14] <SWPadnos> which appears to not have had much effect
[03:40:32] <L84Supper> I do have the award bios tools, I could pull the vga bios out to kill vga
[03:40:40] <SWPadnos> cool
[03:40:56] <SWPadnos> what version of coreboot did you try?
[03:41:08] <SWPadnos> it seems that v3 doesn't support much yet
[03:41:13] <SWPadnos> (by way of chipsets)
[03:41:23] <L84Supper> V3 is being merged into V2
[03:41:34] <SWPadnos> oh, interesting
[03:42:05] <L84Supper> yes, V3 would have required too much driver work
[03:42:18] <L84Supper> we have Kconfig going now
[03:42:36] <L84Supper> also serial-ice for coreboot testing and development
[03:43:20] <SWPadnos> cool. I'll have to take a look at it again
[03:43:38] <SWPadnos> I'd love to have a bunch of Atom330/i965 boards use it
[03:43:56] <L84Supper> I'd have to fix up a mptable to have apic working with my coreboot patch
[03:44:20] <L84Supper> someone just submitted the first patch for Atom + 945
[03:44:28] <SWPadnos> great
[03:44:32] <L84Supper> it dies right after ram init
[03:44:38] <SWPadnos> not great
[03:44:50] <L84Supper> 945 has been supported, ATOM is just starting
[03:45:35] <L84Supper> ram init it usually the hardest part of the whole port
[03:45:50] <L84Supper> so it's actually good news
[03:46:08] <SWPadnos> I'll have to look into it again - it's been a while since I toyed with the idea of using it
[03:46:14] <L84Supper> AMD 780/700 support is just around the corner
[03:46:28] <SWPadnos> but I'd love to see these machines boot in <10 seconds or so
[03:46:41] <L84Supper> <3 sec
[03:46:57] <SWPadnos> even better (I didn't want to be too demanding :) )
[03:47:12] <L84Supper> power-on to login in under 5 sec easy
[03:47:25] <L84Supper> 3 sec should be the norm for the 780/700
[03:47:32] <SWPadnos> even faster when there's no X or login screen (all remotely operated)
[03:48:03] <L84Supper> since coreboot is not a BIOS, ram and chipset init is under 1 sec
[03:48:17] <L84Supper> the rest is load time from flash or HD
[03:48:23] <SWPadnos> right
[03:48:34] <SWPadnos> these have moderately quick Patriot SSD drives
[03:48:39] <SWPadnos> Warp V2
[03:48:55] <L84Supper> and there is a complete open BIOS called seabios all written in C now that can run as a payload
[03:49:02] <SWPadnos> nice
[03:50:12] <L84Supper> Intel hasn't been very supportive
[03:50:48] <SWPadnos> strange
[03:50:51] <Neo_The_User> only when it comes to mesa 3D and drm drivers, intel is way more ahead than anybody
[03:51:09] <L84Supper> they have their EFI agenda
[03:52:07] <L84Supper> plus most laptops have the DOS backdoor and "phone-home" in BIOS now
[03:52:29] <L84Supper> coreboot would take that power away
[03:53:08] <SWPadnos> well, I'd want it for a bunch of Intel D945GCLF2 board
[03:53:12] <SWPadnos> not a netbook
[03:53:23] <SWPadnos> (though it wouldn't hurt there either)
[03:53:43] <L84Supper> that board should be workable
[03:53:45] <ds3> is that the Atom 240 board?
[03:53:48] <SWPadnos> 330
[03:53:52] <SWPadnos> dual core
[03:54:07] <ds3> Oh nice... what is that going for/
[03:54:12] <SWPadnos> and 64 bit, unlike the Z5xx or N2xx
[03:54:21] <SWPadnos> $89 with CPU installed
[03:54:28] <L84Supper> the Atom is what needs the work
[03:54:30] <ds3> the 2xx, single core versio, is also 64bits
[03:54:38] <L84Supper> we need Atom docs
[03:54:40] <ds3> WHAT? where? I was looking at the single core version for that price
[03:54:41] <SWPadnos> the 230 is, not the N270/N280
[03:54:51] <SWPadnos> newegg
[03:54:57] <ds3> oh newegg BAH
[03:55:06] <L84Supper> one of the devs has Atom docs under NDA but he's too busy to finish the patch :(
[03:55:10] <SWPadnos> oh, $79.99
[03:55:24] <L84Supper> yeah, was $65
[03:55:49] <SWPadnos> also available for a similar price from mini-box.com, and they may even discount for qusntity
[03:55:57] <ds3> does one have a PCI slot?
[03:56:04] <SWPadnos> yep, one
[03:56:28] <L84Supper> wow Foxconn Atom + 945 mioni-itx 57.99
[03:56:32] <ds3> hmmm tempting to use it to replace my dual PIII
[03:56:38] <ds3> should pay for itself in a year
[03:56:38] <Neo_The_User> http://www.intel.com/products/processor/atom/techdocs.htm
[03:56:39] <L84Supper> http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=atom+mini-itx&x=0&y=0
[03:57:14] <SWPadnos> these entire systems (2G RAM, 330 CPU, and 32 GB SSD) take ~26W under load
[03:57:32] <SWPadnos> that's with 2 copies of GLXGears running, plus some compilation and other stuff
[03:57:47] <SWPadnos> measured from the wall, using a picoPSU
[03:58:20] <L84Supper> VIA has the appearance of being helpful but they only follow through part way
[03:59:51] <L84Supper> they are already testing the ARM cortex9 quad core soc's with Ubuntu 9.10
[04:00:01] <ds3> so about 36W with a real HD
[04:00:04] <SWPadnos> nice
[04:00:17] <ds3> I think a single PIII-800MHz runs at about 36W by itself
[04:00:34] <SWPadnos> probably not that much - you can get 1TB or larger drives that use 24W for spin-up, but are then ~4W operating
[04:01:12] <ds3> but the point is I am going to go from about 150W down to about 40W
[04:01:24] <ds3> which makes the payback at about 12 months
[04:01:30] <L84Supper> let us know what the latency is on the Atom boards
[04:01:31] <SWPadnos> well, that's a good point :)
[04:01:36] <SWPadnos> it's excellent
[04:01:46] <SWPadnos> one of the best in the wiki table
[04:01:56] <ds3> and I don't think a 1.6GHz atom iis that much slower then a 800MHz PIII
[04:01:59] <SWPadnos> like 8 uS
[04:02:45] <L84Supper> I was trying to get rd of our last VIA mini-itx boards but I can jump to Atom if it's an issue
[04:03:02] <L84Supper> 8uS perfect
[04:04:26] <ds3> I could use some of the VIA mini-itx's
[04:05:03] <Neo_The_User> ds3: you'll regret it
[04:05:34] <SWPadnos> ds3, what would that machine be for?
[04:06:08] <ds3> SWPadnos: low power stuff that need a PCI interface otherwise, I'd use an ARM for it
[04:06:34] <SWPadnos> I mean the atom board to replace the dual-P3
[04:06:38] <ds3> was thinking of using an older VIA board but that is a ATX board 9big)
[04:06:50] <ds3> SWPadnos: just random stuff.. it is my mail/dns/shell box
[04:06:57] <SWPadnos> ah, ok
[04:07:09] <ds3> the PIII is morethen fast enough
[04:07:16] <SWPadnos> there's another atom-based board that can probably be used as an HTPC as well
[04:07:20] <ds3> it is just burning a hole in my budget
[04:07:25] <SWPadnos> but it's $170 or $185
[04:07:33] <ds3> that's too long of a payback
[04:07:51] <SWPadnos> yeah, unless you avoid getting a DVD player :)
[04:07:55] <SWPadnos> or a Tivo
[04:08:06] <ds3> Oh no... I can use an ARM for that :D
[04:08:18] <tom3p> got a cnc, a lot of time and tons of money? build this http://www.kirkhammotorsports.com/book_aoe/
[04:08:22] <ds3> PCI is one of the last reasons for me to even stare an an x86
[04:09:03] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:09:13] <SWPadnos> the other board also has wi-fi onboard
[04:10:12] <ds3> much rather run hard wire ethernet
[04:10:26] <ds3> I could use an ISA slot though
[04:10:29] <SWPadnos> wow. one model even has a DC-DC converter onboard - no picoPSU neede
[04:10:31] <SWPadnos> d
[04:10:51] <SWPadnos> oh sure - it's got gigabit LAN too
[04:11:17] <ds3> a DC-DC converter would be nice
[04:11:28] <ds3> a gel cell UPS
[04:11:35] <SWPadnos> and passive cooling - no fans at all on the board
[04:11:47] <ds3> i really wish the x86 crap would do away with the complex power supplies
[04:11:52] <SWPadnos> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813500027
[04:11:54] <SWPadnos> it would be nice
[04:12:05] <ds3> just give it a 5V in on a 1" square copper bar and be done with :D
[04:12:11] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:12:32] <SWPadnos> I've seen power supplies like that (except it was more like 8 sq.in)
[04:12:57] <SWPadnos> more or less a 2x4 made out of copper
[04:13:11] <ds3> oh yeah, some of the "super computers" are wired up like that
[04:13:16] <SWPadnos> I'm sure
[04:13:25] <SWPadnos> there was one that was a servo power supply
[04:13:43] <L84Supper> yeah, the Atom mini-itx boards could easily be +12VDC in only
[04:13:44] <SWPadnos> a 2000V/2100A servo power supply
[04:14:26] <L84Supper> VIA pico-itx have +12VDC only
[04:15:16] <SWPadnos> I wish I could find a small board (significantly smaller than mini-ITX) that has at least 4 hi-speed USB ports and gigabit ethernet
[04:15:33] <SWPadnos> and enough CPU power so it doesn't completely bog down with all of those pumping data
[04:16:27] <ds3> SWPadnos: stack a few OMAP3 boards together? :)
[04:16:34] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:16:37] <L84Supper> http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/embedded/ProductDetail.jsp?productLine=1&id=730&tabs=1
[04:16:50] <SWPadnos> then there's the "significantly smaller than mini-ITX" problem ;)
[04:17:35] <ds3> SWPadnos: 4 gumstix would still be smaller then 1 pico ITX :)
[04:17:50] <SWPadnos> do those have gigabit?
[04:17:58] <L84Supper> probably cost less
[04:18:04] <L84Supper> yeah Gbit
[04:18:14] <SWPadnos> L84Supper, that looks nice, thanks
[04:18:27] <L84Supper> vx800 chipset + 1GHz C7
[04:18:53] <ds3> there is doing gigabit and then there is passing data at gigabit speedss
[04:19:54] <L84Supper> there is alo a model with vx855 for HDTV support 1080p
[04:20:03] <SWPadnos> bummer - looks liek the via only has 3 USB ports
[04:20:10] <L84Supper> http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/embedded/ProductDetail.jsp?productLine=1&id=950&tabs=1
[04:20:15] <SWPadnos> ds3, yeah - that's the problem
[04:20:29] <L84Supper> the P720 has gbit + 6 usb 2.0
[04:21:59] <L84Supper> linux accel graphics support will be the only issue
[04:23:32] <SWPadnos> not an issue with this application
[04:23:39] <SWPadnos> time for bed, thanks for the links
[04:23:59] <L84Supper> thanks for the input on EMC as well
[04:25:55] <L84Supper> ouch p720 = $297
[04:26:05] <L84Supper> http://www.via-itx.com/epia-p720-10e.html
[04:26:29] <L84Supper> http://micro-xpc.com/items/boards/via/s-rie-p~px/32820-detail.htm
[04:28:23] <L84Supper> or p700 for few $$ less http://www.via-itx.com/epia-p700-10l-development-kit.html
[04:34:29] <MattyMatt> SWPadnos, one of these? http://www.amazon.com/D-Link-DI-624S-Wireless-802-11g-108Mbps/dp/B0007A6P4S
[04:35:22] <MattyMatt> if it runs OpenWRT, you're in business
[04:35:49] <L84Supper> I think his requirement was 4 usb 2.0 + 1 Gbit LAN
[04:36:16] <MattyMatt> that has 2x usb 2.0 and 4x 1Gb LAN + free wifi
[04:37:06] <MattyMatt> that was my first dip, there are lots of cheap routers
[04:38:05] <MattyMatt> would 2 USB be enough with a hub?
[04:38:13] <L84Supper> yeah, they are they guys that keep Mips and ARM socs cheap
[04:38:38] <MattyMatt> they keep the mips factory open
[04:39:03] <L84Supper> Broadcom
[04:39:31] <L84Supper> they just started moving to the ARM bandwagon
[04:39:48] <MattyMatt> I think the PS3 emulates mips when it's playing PS2
[04:40:57] <MattyMatt> although they probably haven't even started making PS2 in brasil yet, but when they do it'll be homemade chips
[04:41:18] <L84Supper> emotion engine
[04:41:48] <MattyMatt> 375% import duty in brasil. I stopped complaining about UK prices when I heard that
[04:42:24] <L84Supper> VIA makes PC's there
[04:43:37] <MattyMatt> I bet they didn't pay 375% import on the plant
[04:43:38] <L84Supper> they make some high tech PCB's in Brazil now, micro via stuff for cell phones
[04:43:48] <MattyMatt> taxes are for little people :)
[04:44:21] <L84Supper> i think VIA teamed with some local co to get around the issues
[04:53:03] <MattyMatt> why are handheld plasma cutters so much smaller than cnc ones? duty cycle?
[04:53:28] <MattyMatt> or is the GiantTech just a compact design?
[04:54:14] <MattyMatt> hush now child and finish your wooden table
[04:54:23] <L84Supper> heh
[04:57:17] <L84Supper> any devs here in the far east?
[04:59:47] <MattyMatt> I'm just about done cutting & drilling the wood, and I've worked out how to build it in a reversible way with the ribs under the table glued on, by having open slots instead of holes for the captive bolts
[05:00:45] <MattyMatt> pics to follow, but I haven't photojournalled this at all. I'll fake it all later
[05:08:40] <MattyMatt> has anyone used 2 sets of shelf sliders at right angles before? that's the only original idea in this afaics
[05:10:11] <tom3p> like shelf sliders http://www.instructables.com/id/Low_Cost_Hobby_Servo_XY_Table/
[05:10:55] <tom3p> and more than 2 per direction sounds over-constraining, like one of 3 must be binding to some degree
[05:11:50] <MattyMatt> naah, they are springy in the Y axis, about 2mm sprung play
[05:12:22] <MattyMatt> or Z axis in that design, but Y relative to the slider
[05:13:08] <MattyMatt> I'll tweak them for minimum friction, as that's when they'll be best aligned
[05:14:51] <MattyMatt> and I've got them opposed, so when one pair is fully in, the other pair is fully out (minus the overlap in the tool bearing region)
[05:16:41] <MattyMatt> so they add some support in the other axis
[05:17:20] <MattyMatt> I reckon 2 pairs will be way better than one
[05:18:49] <L84Supper> boy, and I complain when I have to use a screw drive vs a linear motor
[05:18:51] <MattyMatt> although that seriously erodes the cost advantage
[05:22:42] <MattyMatt> I was thinking about linear motors again today. if the pole pieces were shaped to fit in slots sawn with a circular saw in plastic, that would be cheaper than assembling stacks of precise-thickness iron & mica
[05:25:18] <L84Supper> high temp plastic
[05:25:38] <MattyMatt> yeah good plan
[05:26:06] <MattyMatt> something cheaper than potting it all in high-temp epoxy tho
[05:26:09] <L84Supper> or glass
[05:26:17] <MattyMatt> that's the one :)
[05:26:21] <L84Supper> use fritt
[05:26:38] <MattyMatt> sintered glass powder?
[05:26:44] <L84Supper> yeah
[05:29:30] <MattyMatt> glass loaded epoxy would probably do for the economy model
[05:30:00] <MattyMatt> how much is the cheapest linear stepper so far?
[05:30:28] <L84Supper> you can get glass sheet down to ~10 mil thick, it's actually flexible
[05:31:19] <tom3p> like the covers for glass slides on microscope, they bend, just a little
[05:32:51] <MattyMatt> not as resilient as mica tho, nor as good a dielectric but I suppose that not a problem.
[05:33:40] <L84Supper> how many thousand volts were you planning to power it with ? :)
[05:34:21] <MattyMatt> I think of laminated poles, and I imagine mains current eddies
[05:35:28] <tom3p> gnite all
[05:35:45] <MattyMatt> ah one day I'll have some nice rollers and a plasma cutter. assembling stacks won't be too much work then
[05:37:42] <L84Supper> ptfe tape the dielectric constant is ~2
[05:39:12] <L84Supper> pcb core and prepreg in sheets down to 2 mil thick is pretty cheap
[05:39:26] <MattyMatt> varnish would do, if it's a constant thickness and the poles are OK with minimal spacing
[05:40:17] <MattyMatt> and that probably depends how high the 'rotor' flies
[05:40:52] <L84Supper> Lucite has an Er of 2.5
[05:42:08] <L84Supper> anyway gnnite
[05:42:29] <MattyMatt> I'm not an electrical engineer, so I'll just suck it and see (one day)
[05:42:38] <MattyMatt> gnigt
[06:06:50] <jst_home_> jst_home_ is now known as jst_home
[09:20:03] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[09:37:32] <pjm__> good morning
[09:48:07] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[10:52:48] <alex_joni> this is interesting: http://www.orchestracontrol.com/
[10:57:52] <alex_joni> seems like quite a complete CNC controller
[10:58:03] <alex_joni> never heard of it before though
[10:59:20] <archivist> seems the commercial was supposed to be 2007, is it being supported properly
[10:59:37] <alex_joni> it's kinda opensource :D
[10:59:40] <archivist> not proper open source though
[10:59:54] <alex_joni> right.. looking at some manuals now
[11:01:32] <alex_joni> they have: nurbs, bspline, inv. kins, fieldbusses (ethercat, profibus, sercos), etc
[11:02:16] <alex_joni> also compensation (out of skew, backlash, etc)
[11:02:58] <archivist> I suppose people should read the sources to see if any has come from opensource :) and "take notes"
[11:05:00] <alex_joni> http://www.orchestracontrol.com/Portals/0/RespositoryManager/Press/documents/Orchestra%20Policy_v2.5comm.pdf
[11:05:09] <alex_joni> page 3 is interesting
[11:09:36] <archivist> seems very biased to make it free for the developer, and then charge/make money from end users
[11:10:26] <alex_joni> not quite free for the developer either
[11:11:27] <archivist> depends on the definition of use commercially :)
[11:12:08] <archivist> we were testing...honest
[11:26:53] <alex_joni> one sure needs to test for a couple years in production before saying it's ok
[11:55:24] <jthornton> in the M6 section it says "The axis positions may be modified" I wonder what that means?
[12:02:06] <alex_joni> jthornton: that probably means that the toolchange may cause axis motion
[12:02:13] <alex_joni> to the toolchange location
[12:05:17] <jthornton> thanks alex_joni, that makes sense
[12:28:28] <robh-wrk> has any body done a spindle orientation in hal? or has a min to look over my hal
[12:29:38] <robh-wrk> http://pastebin.ca/1646387
[12:37:46] <SWPadnos> the mazak sample config has spindle orient
[12:39:53] <robh-wrk> i borrowed some ideas from it but quite old having to transfer to hm2 also from it
[12:40:25] <robh-wrk> just wanted to make sure it looked ok before i tried it
[12:41:19] <robh-wrk> loads ok, just throught might be better way to do some things now or not
[12:49:16] <SWPadnos> the only thing I can see (in my pre-caffeinated state) is that you may need to be sure the orientation has reset (from the encoder index) at least once before enabling the spindle orient
[12:49:17] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[12:50:02] <SWPadnos> otherwise, there will be a large negative wind-up in the PID, trying to get from 72 million-ish to something under 360
[12:50:13] <robh-wrk> i did wunder if not resetting before enable of PID would lead it to try "unwind" position
[12:50:39] <SWPadnos> I guess you can try it on the machine and see
[12:51:24] <robh-wrk> i guess as i set index to reset on next pass it would go from 1000count to zero right away and confuse it even more
[12:51:55] <SWPadnos> yep, that would be more confusing for it
[12:52:12] <SWPadnos> I don't know what if anything was done on the Mazak to account for this
[12:54:03] <skunkworks_> join emc-devel
[12:54:17] <robh_wrk> dam net
[12:55:05] <robh_wrk> i think in maxak they used there tool-change bit to enable the index-enable to reset only time i could see it linked in
[12:56:38] <robh_wrk> i have a speed cap soi cant see it shooting off any where fast trying todo, if it does not work i guess i will find away to reset counts before enable the PID
[13:01:28] <SWPadnos> I guess the worst case is that it will try to go backwards quickly, starting just on the wrong side of the index, and will have essentially one full turn to accelerate in reverse
[13:01:43] <SWPadnos> and in which the PID will be completely saturated towards the negative
[13:02:44] <SWPadnos> at that point, the position will reset, the index line will go low (since the index has been found), and the PID will then have to recover from the negative saturation
[13:02:58] <SWPadnos> it'll really depend on the spindle accel I think - not so much the top speed
[13:03:35] <SWPadnos> (since the best case would be that it would get back down to zero speed in just about one revolution - the same time/rotation it took to accelerate)
[13:04:07] <cradek_> if you have trouble with windup, consider pid.N.maxerrorI
[13:05:17] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[13:12:15] <jepler> ooh http://openscad.org/ looks neat (seb linked it on the wiki)
[13:12:30] <ROBH> hi cradek just ur reply, i have put in maxerrorI
[13:12:44] <jepler> it'd be right up jmkasunich's alley, he has used pov in the past for modelling stuff like this
[13:13:25] <SWPadnos> that is cool
[13:16:30] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[13:18:11] <Dave911> >http://www.orchestracontrol.com/
[13:18:12] <Dave911> I read the licensing scheme for that software. It seems pretty sneaky. You can contribute to the software but then if you want to use it commercially you have to pay them ...??
[13:18:14] <Dave911> Sort of a one way street it seems. They make it sound very open but as Alex says - look at page 3. Seems deceptive.
[13:39:07] <mozmck> re: openscad, I wonder how it is better than brlcad? I speaking from near total ignorance here as I've not used brlcad either...
[13:39:35] <SWPadnos> better and worse, it seems
[13:40:08] <SWPadnos> openscad can import DXF files and manipulate DXF entities easily (it seems)
[13:40:30] <SWPadnos> brlcad has a graphical editor (hard to use, but since CAD is an inherently graphical application ...)
[13:40:55] <SWPadnos> I don't know which one has better constraints management, if either actually has a solver at all
[13:41:13] <mozmck> I seem to remember that it looked like a pain to use dxf with brlcad...
[13:41:20] <mozmck> what's a solver?
[13:41:22] <SWPadnos> openscad may, since you can declare variables and use them in formulas when creating entities
[13:41:39] <archivist> heekscad is slowly getting constraints and a solver
[13:41:41] <SWPadnos> well, I'm thinking of constraints like "this hole goes on the same horizontal line as that one
[13:41:44] <SWPadnos> "
[13:42:04] <SWPadnos> like solidworks or other sketch/manipulate parametric modelers
[13:42:55] <mozmck> I see. I haven't used any of them.
[13:43:22] <archivist> Solidworks is nice (and expensive)
[13:43:26] <SWPadnos> I've used various CAD packages off and on for the last 20 years or so, so I have sporadic knowledge at best :)
[13:44:00] <SWPadnos> I definitely like parametric modeling though - you change a dimension and everything that depends on that dimension gets "rebuilt"
[13:44:36] <SWPadnos> as opposed to using tools like trim, which allow you to fit an entity to another, but doesn't help if you move the trimming entity later
[13:44:54] <archivist> parametric modeling makes it seriously productive
[13:45:01] <SWPadnos> (draw a square, then move one edge to make it a rectangle - the "sides" don't extend to the new length)
[13:45:03] <SWPadnos> yes
[13:45:27] <SWPadnos> I have CadMAX, which has the basic feature set of SolidWorks, but looks like a 1980's program
[13:45:33] <SWPadnos> and is $300
[13:46:00] <SWPadnos> I wonder if it runs under WINE. it probably does
[13:46:44] <archivist> I keep nagging the heeks guys for solidworks-alike
[13:47:36] <SWPadnos> that's probably not helpful :)
[13:47:50] <SWPadnos> that's a bit like kids asking "are we there yet?"
[13:48:02] <SWPadnos> (no, admmit. we'll stop the car when we get there!)
[13:48:04] <SWPadnos> dammit
[13:48:07] <SWPadnos> damnit
[13:48:08] <archivist> well the user interface at the moment is not too useful
[13:48:09] <SWPadnos> darnit
[13:48:43] <SWPadnos> someone here was working on a parametric constraint solver for heekscad, I think
[13:48:50] <archivist> I test and feed bugs at the moment
[13:49:02] <SWPadnos> geo_0005 maybe
[13:49:07] <archivist> yup
[13:50:31] <SWPadnos> ok, shower time. bbl
[14:13:08] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[14:20:31] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[15:20:29] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[15:37:27] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[15:54:14] <tom3p> re: recent talk about fieldbus vs sercos http://elettrolinux.com/HW-driver/sercans-iii-gnulinux-driver-for-sercos-iii-master-pci-sercans-iii.html
[16:58:36] <EbiDK> EbiDK is now known as EbiDK|AWAY
[18:32:09] <cas> hello :-) -- I am looking for a program where I can design some piece with holes and after drill them on my new CNC. I am new to CNC and I am not mechanic. Can someone tell me about a program where I can make STL files to GCODE, for drilling? --
[18:33:53] <cradek> if you know the coordinates where you want the drills, you can easily write gcode by hand that will do the drilling. Each hole is only one line of code.
[18:34:44] <cas> cradek: but I was thinking in design in Blender and after use some program... no?
[18:34:53] <cas> I have installed pycam
[18:35:14] <frallzor> blender for holes seems overkill =)
[18:35:48] <cradek> If you want a hole at X=25mm, Y=25mm, 25mm deep, drilled at 100mm/min, you could just program G81 X25 Y25 Z-25 F100
[18:35:51] <L84Supper> yeah but you can render the finish in the holes :)
[18:36:15] <cradek> but I have no idea how to do it using all that software, sorry
[18:36:23] <frallzor> check cambam
[18:36:26] <frallzor> easy simple
[18:36:36] <frallzor> all words that = that above
[18:37:12] <cas> hmmm, but I am using Linux, no Windows here
[18:37:38] <tom3p> cas what you want to do is simple, you can do it with just a text editor, even with windows notepad
[18:38:14] <tom3p> you need to learn just a few magic words, the 'gcode' language
[18:38:24] <cas> but I want to start doing something simple, to learn such kind of a program
[18:38:37] <frallzor> I wouldnt use blender for cadding
[18:38:41] <tom3p> notepad is simple
[18:38:47] <frallzor> if thats the goal
[18:39:16] <cas> the goal is to be able to design in some CAD program, and after machine it
[18:39:17] <tom3p> he said I am looking for a program where I can design some piece with holes and after drill them on my new CNC
[18:39:44] <cradek> isn't blender a sketching/drawing program? those are usually unsuitable for cad because they can't make a feature a certain size
[18:39:45] <L84Supper> heekscad
[18:39:50] <cas> I saw alread FreeCAD and Art Of Ilusion, as for 3D CAD
[18:39:55] <archivist> drilling a few holes can be easier without cad
[18:40:04] <cradek> archivist: _is_
[18:40:12] <archivist> :)
[18:40:19] <frallzor> but he probably wants to do more later too :)
[18:40:23] <cradek> but if the point is to learn software, this advice is no good
[18:40:33] <cradek> (and also, I don't have any good advice then)
[18:40:58] <frallzor> PROEngineer is nice, works in linux if my mind treats me right
[18:40:58] <tom3p> cas you dont need cad, but if you want to do it that way, look around for cad that will output gcode (you would learn more with text editor, THEN be ready to evaluate cad)
[18:41:18] <cas> well, later I will use my CNC as a EMCRepStrap machine, a 3D printer, and then I need to design in 3D, so, I was thinking if I can reuse the same softwares...
[18:41:50] <frallzor> solidworks is nice with plugins, but its windows
[18:41:53] <cas> I just can use Free Software, in Linux, no Windows here
[18:41:53] <tom3p> you will know how to choose software after learning basics in text editor
[18:41:54] <archivist> cas you may notice for hole drilling 99% of use write gcode, artistic 3d works with cam
[18:41:56] <frallzor> it suppors 3d-printing
[18:42:06] <frallzor> *t
[18:42:47] <archivist> for reprap you are making solid its not the same
[18:43:04] <archivist> you work from stl then
[18:43:07] <cas> but is also gcode, no?
[18:43:33] <cas> what about heekscad? is it better then pycam?
[18:43:44] <tom3p> same as what... let him learn >what< the simplest way, then get fancy
[18:43:59] <cas> and, could I convert some drill code from STL on pycam?
[18:44:07] <archivist> there are many simples to learn
[18:44:16] <tom3p> cas you cant evalate better w/o the basics
[18:44:17] <L84Supper> cas : you might want to browse http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Cam
[18:44:40] <cas> L84Supper: I already that that page a few times ;-) -- thanks.
[18:45:10] <cas> I am not looking for a fancy, expensive, complex program - just a simple one, for Linux, Open Source.
[18:45:32] <cas> any user of pycam here?
[18:46:03] <archivist> lack of replies implies most hand code
[18:46:10] <tom3p> the language of cnc is gcode, the programs you speak of make gcode from complex forms. understanding gcode, at least a little will help you and will ntake 1 afternoon to get a good basis for later
[18:46:36] <tom3p> 'make gcode for comlex forms'...
[18:47:39] <tom3p> good point, most of us use a text editor, why not take that as an experienced way to do it?
[18:48:14] <cas> if is like that... I was expecting some software to do it automaticaly...
[18:48:45] <SWPadnos> for a list of hole locations to drill, a text editor is probably as productive as a CAD -> CAM workflow
[18:49:11] <SWPadnos> if you want to make more complex items later, then CAM will probably be necessary, especially if you want to do 3D contouring (which it sounds like you will)
[18:49:11] <archivist> you can do some automatically but it needs hand holding
[18:49:18] <cradek> drawing a solids model with holes in it and then expecting software to figure out how to drill it is a very roundabout way, and one that it will be hard to do with free/open source software
[18:49:33] <SWPadnos> QCad may be the best bet for that
[18:49:49] <SWPadnos> I think you can just say "put a hole here", and it outptus the G-code to do that
[18:50:12] <SWPadnos> but there are very different programs for doing different levels of CAD/CAM
[18:50:26] <cradek> many beginners expect to draw a solids model and then tell the cnc machine "now make that!" but that is not how it really works. To a large extent you need to learn to be a machinist first.
[18:50:32] <SWPadnos> what you want now is 2d (actually, maybe not even that if it's just hole drilling)
[18:50:43] <tom3p> at least try the basics before getting fancy
[18:50:52] <SWPadnos> 2D is more or less "route this pattern, drill these holes"
[18:51:05] <SWPadnos> then there's 2.5D, which you may be able to use the same tools for
[18:51:20] <cas> ok
[18:51:28] <cas> QCad can output gcode?
[18:51:34] <SWPadnos> that's more than one layer of 2D machining (like a case with a pocket, and maybe different things at different levels, but each level is flat)
[18:51:36] <SWPadnos> I think so
[18:51:45] <SWPadnos> maybe I'm thinking of GCAM or something like that
[18:52:24] <SWPadnos> what you want for the future is full solid modeling in the CAD package, and 3D contouring for the CAM package
[18:52:27] <archivist> cas I do "complex" like gears, but actually hand code in 150 or less line gcode
[18:52:33] <SWPadnos> or possibly 4 or 5 axis CAM output
[18:53:01] <cas> but QCad is not Open Source, right?
[18:53:06] <SWPadnos> these different levels of usage don't usually use the same processes, or the same programs
[18:53:06] <tom3p> cas: i dont think qcad outputs gcode at all, not the free vrsn
[18:53:40] <SWPadnos> oh right, it is GCAM
[18:54:03] <archivist> cnc requires some human effort, you cannot leave it all to the machine
[18:54:30] <SWPadnos> for 2D/2.5D, you might be able to look at the code and see that it's correct by inspection
[18:54:41] <SWPadnos> that's a lot less likely for 3D contouring or 4/5 axis
[18:55:11] <SWPadnos> and there are many many other factors that need to go into actually machining a part: material, cutter material, speeds, feeds, coatings, coolant ...
[18:55:35] <cas> ok, EMC shows the code at same time it is running -- I will start looiking/learning it for sure
[18:56:01] <SWPadnos> read a little about drilling cycles
[18:56:05] <cas> I will try GCAM, last time tested it, it was crashing a lot :-(
[18:56:19] <cradek> it is pretty new
[18:56:29] <SWPadnos> once you set the motion mode, each new hole is literally a line that just has the X and Y position of the next hole (I think)
[18:56:40] <cradek> yes
[18:56:44] <SWPadnos> phew :)
[18:56:57] <cradek> or a line of evenly spaced holes can all be done with one line of gcode
[18:57:04] <SWPadnos> right
[18:59:02] <tom3p> just installed gcam segfaults back to gedit ;)
[18:59:47] <cas> on the other day, I made a cube on Blender, after used pycam to convert it to gcode and looked like a very uncorrect way to mill the cube! If it was me, I would do like pycam did...
[19:00:12] <klick0> does gcam do pocketing?
[19:00:20] <cas> I want also try svn hecckscad
[19:01:13] <cradek> you machine a cube by placing in the vise six times. If you want it to end up cubic, you have to think carefully about what order to cut the faces and how to place it correctly each time.
[19:01:23] <klick0> ahha
[19:01:35] <cradek> this is the kind of thing where you need machining skills, not software skills, to accomplish the task
[19:02:28] <archivist> or round bar in a 5 axis with one slitting saw :)
[19:02:38] <cradek> no software ever made can make a mill just spit out a cube
[19:03:09] <cradek> archivist: I bet there are many ways to do it :-)
[19:04:08] <archivist> thats the touble, there are many ways and the programs dont know the machine or tools available
[19:04:39] <cradek> Do you have a shaper? [OK] [Cancel]
[19:04:50] <cradek> Do you have a face mill? [OK] [Cancel]
[19:04:52] <cradek> haha
[19:05:02] <tom3p> src for gcam rqrs gtkglext-1.0 dev pkg
[19:05:30] <archivist> you would spend hours answering dumb questions
[19:06:07] <archivist> is your machine up to a good bite or not
[19:06:45] <archivist> will it climb mill without throwing a chunk at you
[19:06:53] <klick0> i just compiled gcam, started it, then hit new project and it seg faulted... nice
[19:08:06] <archivist> cas if you have never machined, go to night classes and learn on a manual machine
[19:08:46] <cradek> archivist: I did that! It was a blast.
[19:09:12] <cradek> that's where I learned to say "There's a reason they call it boring."
[19:09:35] <cas> klick0: did you got the SVN version?
[19:11:17] <klick0> no, i recompiled it in debug mode, was about to debug it... not sure i feel like it now
[19:11:28] <klick0> i'll grab the svn version
[19:12:46] <cas> klick0: the SVN version looks more stable
[19:13:10] <klick0> it's compiling
[19:13:46] <tom3p> new compile runs, segfaults at render
[19:14:04] <klick0> mine segfaulted at same spot
[19:14:15] <klick0> who knows, probably somethign simple
[19:14:27] <klick0> i run gentoo
[19:15:32] <tom3p> ok, run a sample, it 'worked' ( wher ethe hell is the gcode output??)
[19:16:23] <tom3p> ok file export gcode as emc
[19:16:31] <Neo_The_User> klick0, I used to run gentoo all the time. maybe I can help you ;) SWPadnos: when you sent me this patch http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=124469647405168&q=raw that goes against the vanilla kernel (Non RTAI) what kind of test did you mean? IIRC, Latency-test depended on RTAI
[19:17:10] <SWPadnos> that test halts all the CPUs, then tells you what latency *still* occurs
[19:17:38] <SWPadnos> so it shows you latency that isn't caused by your kernel, and can't be configured out
[19:17:49] <SWPadnos> some may be BIOS-caused, or SMI, or whatever
[19:17:54] <SWPadnos> onboard video
[19:18:29] <klick0> i don't think gentoo is the issue, just figured i would mention it, everythign else i have runs fine...
[19:18:37] <tom3p> gcam output is running in sim, some profile zigzagged down in z.. seems valid enuf... ok, so use gcam, but have a drink ready!
[19:18:58] <Neo_The_User> can you post the segmentation fault or the error you are getting? SWPadnos Thanks! :)
[19:19:14] <SWPadnos> sure - let us know what you see
[19:19:27] <cas> tom3p: but the gcam outputs a .cnc file, not the same for EMC2?
[19:19:59] <tom3p> cas. when you save it, just choose emc format AND change the extent to .ngc
[19:20:44] <klick0> gui_menu_file.c line 131... hmm
[19:20:55] <Neo_The_User> can you pastebin it please?
[19:20:55] <cas> tom3p: I did it and got an error like "," invalid character, when opening on EMC2
[19:21:56] <tom3p> cas i'd need to learn more about gcam before criticizing it much, just like you should learn how to write simple gcode in text editor so you can evaluate cam systems.
[19:22:08] <klick0> http://pastebin.com/d63c68f93
[19:22:27] <cradek> cas: then your gcode output has an error
[19:22:40] <klick0> that's from svn trunk
[19:22:46] <cradek> cas: and if I had to guess, it's got commas in it :-)
[19:23:23] <klick0> ahh, i see the issue
[19:23:31] <klick0> endmill[0], i have no endmills
[19:23:57] <klick0> initialize to first endmill, but i didn't program any endmills, so it's going to crash obviously
[19:24:02] <tom3p> cas from the beginning: i installed the libgtkext1.0 dev package ( used sysnaptic), the i downloaded the tgz file from gcam.org and opened it. the i ran ./configure, then make, then sudo make install, but... it didnt really install, so i ran from the new directory ./gcam <enter>
[19:24:21] <klick0> i didn't do a make install, i just ran from the directory, perhaps the install puts in some default end mills.. i dunno, i'm sure i can define something
[19:24:25] <tom3p> klick, yes try running form the build dir
[19:24:55] <tom3p> and there are no drill, but it has drill cycles/macros
[19:25:12] <klick0> well make install installed the default end mills
[19:25:15] <klick0> which fixed the crash
[19:25:23] <tom3p> i used the 1/4" flatbottom endmill, dunno which tool it used
[19:26:06] <tom3p> do you exec from the install dir? or is the app known on the sys path?
[19:26:39] <cas> I am running the gcam from the folder I used to build it
[19:26:52] <klick0> well you must have end mills defined somewhere
[19:27:04] <klick0> if you've done make install EVER, it should be alright
[19:27:11] <tom3p> kudos to Justin Shumaker, nice app
[19:27:51] <tom3p> cas yes that seems neccesary, i asked klick0 if he did the sae, or managed to get a real install
[19:28:37] <klick0> it installs by default into /usr/local/gcam/bin/gcam
[19:28:39] <klick0> it's there
[19:28:43] <klick0> just not in your path
[19:29:03] <cas> hmmm, I import one STL file and after export gcode, change the "," to "." and load on EMC, but gcode seems nothing more then Initialize Mill and Stop Mill
[19:29:28] <tom3p> duh, build instructions on http://gcam.js.cx/index.php/Manual
[19:29:45] <archivist> tom3p, Justin Shumaker is twingy when in IRC, not seen him in awhile, used to work full time on BRLCAD
[19:29:58] <cas> so, for what can we use gcam? it can't control a CNC, like EMC, right?
[19:30:08] <klick0> gcam makes gcode
[19:30:10] <klick0> emc runs gcode
[19:30:11] <tom3p> cas way too complex for me to investigate, the leap from 'drill some holes' to 'import stl' is a big one.
[19:30:47] <archivist> cas you are expecting too much, you have to learn some
[19:30:50] <tom3p> archivist thx, thats right, i remeber running it before ( 2yrs ago?)
[19:31:19] <klick0> well this has no dxf import, i thought it did
[19:31:26] <archivist> bout that long since her worked on BRLCAD
[19:31:32] <archivist> her/he
[19:31:36] <tom3p> cas gcam doesnt control, it make a map up of where to move, emc is a control, it drives along the map
[19:32:13] <cas> hmmm, so looks like I can use gcam to make the holes I want... and learn gcode :-)
[19:33:04] <tom3p> cas learn gcode with text editor. the appreciate gcam by looking at the output wit the text editor
[19:33:19] <tom3p> have fun
[19:33:40] <tom3p> klick0: better than dxf, it has svg import ( just kidding )
[19:34:04] <klick0> hhehe, yea, i read on the forums he hasn't done dxf because it's more difficult..
[19:34:08] <klick0> i thought svg was more difficult
[19:34:16] <klick0> i've wrote many dxf importers
[19:34:25] <klick0> no svg though
[19:34:50] <klick0> svg there are many common libraries though, so not sure why I would write one
[19:35:02] <klick0> there are some dxf ones, but each has it's own quirks imo
[19:36:14] <tom3p> yes dxf gets murky as devs are on vrsn xxxiv and acad comes out with xxxv
[19:36:32] <archivist> dxf is messy :)
[19:36:51] <klick0> dxf is as complicated as you want to get it, it just depends how many entity types you want to support
[19:37:06] <archivist> I did a dxf repair prog so we could send to a laser company
[19:37:20] <tom3p> ok, back to hooking up the dancedancerevolution game pad to usb to joypad to hal to emc ;)
[19:37:45] <klick0> i don't even want to know why you're doing that eheheh
[19:38:03] <tom3p> i use hal to debug it
[19:38:45] <tom3p> but i can jog with fancy steps :)
[19:38:54] <klick0> hehe, right, that's what i was guessing
[19:40:41] <tom3p> before i close the ffox pages for gcam, he's written a nice manual
[19:40:47] <cas> another question: I am getting an error with another EMC config: emc2/configs/zenbot_emcrepstrap/repstrap-extruder.hal:5: pin 'halui.machine.off' does not exist
[19:41:49] <tom3p> cas maybe ask at reprap, they might have made that config
[19:42:25] <cas> tom3p: the author of that files do not answer to me... :-(
[19:42:48] <cas> but, what "pin 'halui.machine.off' does not exist" means?
[19:43:00] <Neo_The_User> andypugh, welcome back
[19:43:15] <cas> I don't have the hardware attached to PC, can be that the problem?
[19:43:24] <andypugh> Hi there.
[19:44:35] <tom3p> cas code tries to us ethe pin, but it doesnt exist. its not hardware problem right know, its ' i didnt pack that in my bag' problem.
[19:44:39] <andypugh> So, I have decided to try building a kernel with parport_pc included. I am wearing a heavy-metal T-shirt, spectacles repaired with elastoplast and I have ordered in Pizza. Can you think what else I should do to make success more likely?
[19:45:08] <Neo_The_User> you mean with SMP right?
[19:45:40] <cradek> andypugh: if you're trying to build a package, set up ccache before your first try, instead of after your fourth
[19:45:40] <archivist> some /me tries not to picture the sight
[19:45:48] <tom3p> cas post the hal files on pastebin.ca, put the url here, and someone may look at it... sorry but i gotta get back to work
[19:47:55] <cas> can someone look at this hal file? :: http://pastebin.com/m18440f7d :: and say why I am getting the error "repstrap-extruder.hal:5: pin 'halui.machine.off' does not exist" ?
[19:48:07] <andypugh> Neo_The_User: I have a kernel with SMP, but it doesn't include parport_pc
[19:50:09] <Neo_The_User> andypugh, OK. Would you like me to write you a HOWTO on patching the official ubuntu kernel source with RTAI and a bare bone (base) config that you can tweak / modify to your needs?
[19:50:47] <andypugh> Thanks for the offer, but I have already found such a document on the wiki
[19:50:58] <andypugh> So I will try that first.
[19:51:37] <Neo_The_User> OK. Before you start compiling a kernel, download rtai 3.7.1 and go to base/arch/x86 and see if your kernel is supported. if not, check base/arch/i386
[19:52:35] <Neo_The_User> then apply that patch in the folder to your kernel source (not header source, nor anything else) and patch the kernel via patch -p1 < /your/path/to/the/rtai/patch
[19:52:50] <Neo_The_User> while inside the kernel source directory
[19:54:14] <andypugh> cas: Have you got a reference to halui in the machine .ini file?
[19:54:44] <andypugh> ie the line HALUI = halui ?
[19:56:04] <cas> andypugh: yes, I think. Here is the .init file: http://pastebin.com/m59e2e620
[19:57:57] <andypugh> cas: No, it is missing. Look for the [HAL] section and add the line HALUI = halui
[19:58:09] <andypugh> That adds in the extra user-interface pins
[19:59:00] <cas> andypugh: but, here the contents of custom_postgui.hal : http://pastebin.com/m25d998c0
[20:00:23] <andypugh> That's custom hal, ye need a change in the .ini
[20:00:27] <cas> andypugh: you are right :-)
[20:02:14] <cas> andypugh: EMC started and looks correct, see here a screenshot: http://www.flickr.com/photos/43558168@N00/4053130825/sizes/l/
[20:03:25] <andypugh> Yes, that looks pretty hopeful
[20:04:42] <cas> andypugh: I will document on RepRap wiki this information, so others can install/use EMC ;-) -- many thanks!
[20:04:45] <skunkworks_> cas: this must be you? http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92032
[20:05:07] <frallzor> what version of emc is that?
[20:05:29] <L84Supper> andypugh: that wiki howto is a bit old, don't be too disappointed if it doesn't work
[20:05:31] <cas> skunkworks yes, right ;-)
[20:05:55] <cas> frallzor: see here: http://objects.reprap.org/wiki/Builders/EMCRepStrap
[20:06:56] <andypugh> OK, I seem to be falling at the first hurdle. Which of the files at http://www.linuxcnc.org/hardy/dists/hardy/base/source/ is the actual kernel source?
[20:07:46] <Neo_The_User> OK Can I re-write the entire emc with custom kernel guide?
[20:09:43] <andypugh> That is the "wiki way"
[20:10:35] <Neo_The_User> how about you use a vanilla kernel and patch with rtai 3.7.1 from www.rtai.org like I did?
[20:10:58] <Neo_The_User> you can still make an ubuntu package so you wont be bypassing anything
[20:12:07] <Neo_The_User> you can use checkinstall to build rtai 3.7.1, you can use make-kpkg to build the kernel, and emc can also be built with checkinstall. things are cleaner that way too
[20:12:34] <cas> me thinks that would be great to have EMC2 running on Ubuntu 9.10 ;-)
[20:12:42] <cas> * cas thinks that would be great to have EMC2 running on Ubuntu 9.10 ;-)
[20:12:47] <Neo_The_User> i could do that :)
[20:13:09] <Neo_The_User> all using ubuntu packages too so you wont be doing any sudo make installs :)
[20:13:14] <Neo_The_User> just sudo dpkg -i commands :)
[20:13:18] <andypugh> I have tried the vanilla approach with approximately zero success in the past though. I never got RTAI to work
[20:14:44] <andypugh> Presuming that the instructions on that page made the kernel I am now using (which works fine with 2.4-pre unless I actually want to use a parallel port) that seems like a likely route to success
[20:20:24] <Neo_The_User> brb
[20:28:23] <frallzor> ah finally got a good enought quotation for steel!
[20:28:58] <Dave911> What are you buying and how much?
[20:30:04] <frallzor> 420kgs of profiles
[20:30:17] <frallzor> and a beam =)
[20:30:30] <cradek> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180425248497
[20:30:35] <cradek> that's no boring bar...
[20:32:13] <andypugh> I don't know, it's not dreadfully exciting
[20:32:40] <archivist> thread mill :)
[20:32:48] <frallzor> * frallzor is happy like a kid at christmas
[20:34:18] <skunkworks_> hell - buy it for the thread mill.
[20:35:01] <skunkworks_> * skunkworks_ doesn't know why he was worried about the 40 taper
[20:35:26] <cradek> no BIN - I'll probably bid on it
[20:35:42] <skunkworks_> go for it.
[20:35:43] <cradek> wonder what those inserts cost though...
[20:36:02] <cradek> I actually have a machine that can make round holes - I could use these now
[20:36:57] <cradek> hm I should get a 1/4-20 thread mill to play with. I use that size a lot.
[20:37:33] <skunkworks_> you really should get an encoder mounted...
[20:37:34] <skunkworks_> ;)
[20:37:39] <cradek> yeah I know
[20:38:07] <cradek> maybe I'll work on that tonight. I found some inkjet motors and they have that HP module and a metal wheel in them.
[20:38:12] <cradek> 504 line, iirc
[20:38:21] <andypugh> That would be cool, constant-contact thread milling...
[20:38:22] <archivist> I love stuff not described properly
[20:38:34] <skunkworks_> cradek: with index?
[20:38:56] <cradek> no, but index is no use on mine anyway, since there's a belt
[20:39:14] <cradek> I'll just hook one of the channels also to index so it looks like constant indexes
[20:39:19] <cradek> for tapping, who cares
[20:39:55] <Dave911> not described properly = opportunity!!! I bought a 1" air wrench once. It was on ebay as a drill. :-)
[20:39:56] <SWPadnos> hook up an index sensor to the spindle
[20:40:15] <SWPadnos> but leave the encoder on the motor, since that's easier mounting (marginally)
[20:40:25] <cradek> it's fun to have all the threads on a part point the same way, but other than that, it really doesn't matter
[20:40:40] <cradek> SWPadnos: it's true maybe I could do that
[20:41:16] <archivist> got an 8 chan HP digital storage scope that way
[20:41:22] <cradek> woo
[20:41:34] <cradek> THIS TV DOES'NT WORK
[20:41:44] <cradek> ?
[20:41:48] <archivist> loon described it as a logic analyser
[20:42:55] <andypugh> There's a difference?
[20:44:12] <archivist> its an HP 16500A with scope plugins instead of logic analyser plugins
[21:02:48] <Neo_The_User> andypugh im writing a new guide for you that is actually up to date and works. what is the name of the kernel config in /boot? exact name please
[21:03:26] <Neo_The_User> the non smp kernel config
[21:04:12] <andypugh> non-smp is config-2.6.24-16-rtai
[21:04:30] <Neo_The_User> thanks. guide will be ready in just a second. will post link.
[21:09:36] <Neo_The_User> http://neo-technical.wikispaces.com/emc2-ubuntu
[21:14:20] <Neo_The_User> sudo apt-get install build-essential and so on. sorry. not sudo apt-get build-essential. im going out for a bit. ill look over the guide more later and fix problems when i get back if it doesnt work. Cheers!
[21:16:00] <andypugh> OK, let's see how I get on.
[21:16:09] <Dave911> Speaking of .....
[21:16:11] <Dave911> I'm trying to load all of the files onto this pc so I can recompile EMC2 from scratch, I already have cloned the source files and I was installing the other needed files and I got to this ..
[21:16:12] <Dave911> sudo apt-get install build-essential autoconf
[21:16:14] <Dave911> At this point I get a 404 error - basically website not found... Uh, what do I do now?
[21:16:36] <andypugh> Try again? It worked for me yesterday
[21:17:07] <andypugh> (well, autoconf anyway)
[21:17:16] <Dave911> I think I have tried it 5 or 6 times now. Usually I screw something up but so far I'm stumped ...
[21:17:45] <Dave911> I got through this one ok.... sudo apt-get build-dep emc2
[21:18:24] <Dave911> Perhaps I should wait for 1/2 hr or so .... maybe some DNS update thing is going on..
[21:19:50] <andypugh> Making new Gibbs for my lathe... http://picasaweb.google.com/bodgesoc/Gibbs#
[21:21:03] <andypugh> Hmm, has Neo gone?
[21:21:36] <andypugh> I find myself thinking that I should use the smp .config and add parport_pc rather than the normal config and add smp...
[21:26:58] <Dave911> Did the old gibbs wear out?
[21:29:20] <andypugh> The old gibbs were bits of cast iron plate, and the adjustment was how tightly the allen screws were done up.
[21:29:44] <andypugh> No jack screws, no lock-nuts.
[21:29:56] <andypugh> Just three not-quite-tight allen screws
[21:43:59] <cas> anyone that is using heekscnc?
[21:44:29] <archivist_emc> cas a few in #cam
[21:44:44] <cradek> andypugh: looks nice. bronze? did you scrape it in or just use it as-machined?
[21:44:58] <archivist_emc> but its a bit raw at the moment
[21:44:58] <andypugh> Used as-machined
[21:45:20] <cas> archivist_emc: thanks ;-)
[21:45:32] <andypugh> It was a big improvement in that parting now works (3.5" stainless even)
[21:45:38] <cradek> nice
[21:46:26] <andypugh> Ideally I suppose I should adjust the mounting surface on the saddle to be exactly flat to the ways, but it seems to work fine already
[21:52:35] <andypugh> Well, I am grateful to Neo for trying, but blindly copy-pasting his command strings didn't work.
[21:52:37] <andypugh> fakeroot make-kpkg --initrd --append-to-version=-rtai kernel-image kernel-headers
[21:52:44] <andypugh> Oops, wrong paste
[21:53:02] <andypugh> Meant http://pastebin.ca/1647061
[21:55:39] <Dave911> I got that link to work properly, things are compiling now. Must have been a DNS glitch
[22:03:25] <alex_joni> andypugh: are thouse vanilla or ubuntu sources?
[22:04:15] <alex_joni> andypugh: also it looks like you don't gave any permissions there, so better run it with sudo instead of fakeroot
[22:04:21] <andypugh> I have no idea, it was suggested I as too dumb to think, so I am just blindly following instructions
[22:04:28] <alex_joni> or give yourself write permission to /usr/src
[22:04:48] <andypugh> Aye, I tried sudo instead, and it went further then gave up
[22:07:23] <andypugh> I am trying again with no thought at all this time (last time I decided to try using the smp .config and adding parport_pc. This time I am using the standard .config and trying to add smp
[22:08:34] <andypugh> The instructions look like they will create a kernel with the same name as a good, working one though, which worries me
[22:11:01] <Neo_The_User> andypugh, it won't since the version string is different
[22:11:21] <andypugh> OK
[22:11:23] <Neo_The_User> and you should use sudo
[22:11:34] <Neo_The_User> sorry I haven't used ubuntu in i don't know how long
[22:13:14] <andypugh> Compiling now
[22:13:18] <Neo_The_User> XD
[22:13:36] <andypugh> It got his far last time though
[22:15:11] <Neo_The_User> permissions problem ok run sudo make clean
[22:15:17] <Dave911> I got everything to compile and I did a run in place....
[22:15:19] <Dave911> If I uninstall the existing 2.3.0 so I can compile the newest sw it will not take out my hal folder and the short cuts on the desktop right??
[22:15:50] <Dave911> I mean install instead or run in place..
[22:15:54] <Neo_The_User> then do: sudo make && sudo make modules_install && sudo make firmware && sudo make firmware_install && sudo make headers_check && sudo make headers_install
[22:15:57] <andypugh> No, but it will remove your emc2-dev....
[22:16:14] <Neo_The_User> it bypasses the package manager but it works :P
[22:16:20] <Dave911> Uh, that's not good
[22:16:43] <andypugh> Well, that was what sudo apt-get remove emc2 dod tome yesterday
[22:17:13] <andypugh> (did to me)
[22:17:31] <Dave911> OK, how do you get around that..? copy emc2-dev somewhere else - not under emc
[22:19:05] <andypugh> The details are fuzzy, but I just recompiled so it wasn't a huge issue. The configs and hal files survive, which is the main thing
[22:19:21] <Dave911> OK, how about just copy it somewhere else, then make a directory called emc - put the source code in there and do a compile and run in place...
[22:19:37] <Dave911> I'll just save stuff off and see what happens..
[22:19:58] <andypugh> OK, this compile is running a lot longer
[22:23:48] <andypugh> I should have booted without the dedicated RTAI processor option, for more compile speed, I suspect
[22:24:05] <Neo_The_User> Indeed
[22:24:37] <Neo_The_User> oh and be sure to run sudo cp arch/x86/boot/bzImage /boot/vmlinuz-rtai when you are done and edit menu.lst or grub.cfg accordingly after its finished
[22:25:16] <andypugh> Is that extra to your other instructions?
[22:26:49] <andypugh> I can't copy and paste from the IRC client to the CNC machine, by the way, as that is in the garage being VNC-ed to
[22:27:26] <Neo_The_User> ill just edit the guide and you can refresh the page
[22:27:37] <andypugh> Thanks, that would be clearer
[22:30:37] <Neo_The_User> ok now... that should fix everything
[22:34:37] <andypugh> Bother. I am 20 minutes in to the old 8a...
[22:36:02] <andypugh> Stop it and start again?
[22:36:51] <Jymm> archivist: ping
[22:37:31] <Neo_The_User> no
[22:37:53] <Neo_The_User> just wait until its done and run sudo cp arch/x86/boot/bzImage /boot/vmlinuz-rtai and edit your boot loader config file
[22:38:14] <andypugh> OK
[22:38:31] <Neo_The_User> your hard drive modules and stuff is compiling INTO (Y) the kernel, yes?
[22:38:35] <Neo_The_User> *compiled
[22:39:16] <andypugh> Errr, dunno
[22:39:48] <Neo_The_User> unless you changed that, you need to start all over again, as said in the guide, your hard drive drivers need to be inside the kernel
[22:39:52] <andypugh> Though I see a munch of IDE drivers compiling right now
[22:40:23] <Neo_The_User> you must change those settings to your hardware though
[22:40:40] <Neo_The_User> wait... nevermind. your using the ubuntu config
[22:40:42] <Neo_The_User> my mistake
[22:40:50] <andypugh> I was wondering...
[22:40:58] <Neo_The_User> heh bit out of it today
[22:41:36] <andypugh> I am puzzled why it is better to take the non-smp config and add smp rather than take the smp config and add parallel port
[22:42:21] <andypugh> Except that I tried the second option first and it didn't compile very far
[22:46:27] <andypugh> CC [M] drivers/media/radio.... I am sure I don't need 90% of this stuff
[22:48:02] <Neo_The_User> you don't. its the default kernel
[22:48:58] <Neo_The_User> you can hit control C at any time and re configure the kernel. but you will need to restart the compliation process and run make clean
[22:51:13] <andypugh> And the chances are high of me deciding I don't need something, and being wrong.
[22:53:18] <Neo_The_User> i had to compile about 700 kernels from source to learn the ins and outs of the majority of the options
[22:53:47] <Neo_The_User> * Neo_The_User spends too much time recompiling kernels from git
[22:55:51] <celeron55_> i guess, to build a bootable kernel, you just basically have to be sure there is a driver in the kernel (the Y option) for the ATA controller and for the filesystems used for booting
[22:57:07] <Neo_The_User> for the base kernel, yes
[22:57:54] <Neo_The_User> but to make it somewhat usual, you need to know what networking options or leave on or off, native language support options, sound options, etc,
[22:58:14] <celeron55_> i usually just check that and then go through most of the pages in menuconfig and select/deselect whatever seems reasonable
[22:58:30] <celeron55_> you can always add things as modules after you've got it running :P
[22:59:11] <Neo_The_User> the problem with modules though it constantly running modprobe (depending on if you have module auto loading off) and sometimes udev takes longer to load
[22:59:22] <Neo_The_User> which is why i go for kernels under 900K or so. fast as lightning
[23:02:02] <andypugh> CC [M] drivers/telephony/ ....
[23:03:08] <celeron55_> i guess some of that stuff is quite old and takes ridiculously little space
[23:03:08] <MrSunshine> motherboards with built in graphics card etc is no problem for running emc with right ?
[23:03:10] <Neo_The_User> brb
[23:03:11] <andypugh> Hmm, nice to know that the Phidget drivers are a default install
[23:03:45] <andypugh> MrSunshine: It depends. Try it and see. Most seem fine
[23:04:25] <MrSunshine> well, its about buying a new one, cant afforda a full ATX motherboard that supports my AWSOME 140W cpu :P
[23:04:40] <MrSunshine> hell even a mATX costs like hell for that cpu
[23:04:53] <Neo_The_User> my ms-7267 was pretty cheap
[23:05:36] <MrSunshine> well i have a cpu, and memory and everything, problem is that lightning strook and cut my mobo in half
[23:05:37] <celeron55_> just don't use the closed source graphics drivers and you probably will be fine
[23:05:44] <MrSunshine> so need to buy a new one, dont wanna waste the cpu :)
[23:05:46] <celeron55_> although not always
[23:06:02] <Neo_The_User> too bad it doesnt have a small PCI E 1X slot for the fatal1ty champion pro sound card
[23:06:09] <andypugh> Are you sure everything else survived?
[23:06:20] <MrSunshine> andypugh, tried everything except the cpu realy
[23:06:26] <MrSunshine> RAM, graphicscard etc everything is fine
[23:06:29] <archivist_emc> lightening is likely to have killed everything
[23:06:33] <MrSunshine> so the cpu should be also i hope :P
[23:06:46] <MrSunshine> fans etc starts up, but no picture on screen
[23:07:49] <andypugh> I would be astonished if the CPU survived a lightning strike
[23:07:54] <MrSunshine> but im trying to find someone to test the damn cpu, but now finding out that i need special mobo for a 140W cpu i dont know if i want to put it in someone elses mobo :/
[23:08:08] <andypugh> What CPU?
[23:08:10] <MrSunshine> andypugh, well why did everything else survive? . .and it was not a direct hit .. power spike
[23:08:11] <tom3p> no beep? try no kbd
[23:08:16] <archivist_emc> I would never plug that into a good board
[23:08:21] <MrSunshine> andypugh, AMD Phenom X4
[23:08:23] <MrSunshine> 140W
[23:08:23] <tom3p> if beep then rom is run
[23:08:32] <MrSunshine> no beeps
[23:08:40] <tom3p> then dead
[23:08:50] <archivist_emc> no beeps=no cpu
[23:08:51] <MrSunshine> tom3p, or the mobo can be dead and do not give power to anything? :)
[23:09:00] <Neo_The_User> MrSunshine, I can test it but I can't promise I'll return it if it works :P
[23:09:07] <tom3p> cpu dead ps alive
[23:09:14] <andypugh> How did a power spike cut your mother board in half? Or were you exagerrating?
[23:09:28] <MrSunshine> andypugh, exagerrating ... it just died =)
[23:09:31] <MrSunshine> nothing shows on the mobo
[23:09:35] <MrSunshine> no damage anywhere
[23:10:09] <Neo_The_User> what kind of mobo?
[23:10:16] <Neo_The_User> 79X?
[23:10:24] <tom3p> pull kbd, no beep = dead cpu
[23:10:29] <andypugh> Well, then I change my opinion. But you can't blame me for taking your statement at face value
[23:10:46] <MrSunshine> Neo_The_User, dont remember some crappy stuff .. that does for 1 not support 140W cpu :P
[23:11:15] <MrSunshine> tom3p, even if voltage regulators are fried from the power spike ?
[23:11:26] <MrSunshine> cause i guess the other components also need power to be able to beep
[23:11:28] <tom3p> fan on
[23:11:41] <tom3p> vregs ran fan
[23:11:46] <andypugh> It's not like a car you know, maximum CPU power consumption isn't a great feature.
[23:11:48] <tom3p> use vmeter
[23:12:47] <MrSunshine> tom3p, well lets say it like this then, i guess the vregs that run the cpu isnt the same that runs the fan .. as its so high powered cpus today
[23:12:59] <MrSunshine> so, if the vreg to the cpu is dead == no cpu also :P
[23:13:13] <MrSunshine> but ye, a voltage meter i guess i could find out with if i find the vregs =)
[23:13:36] <tom3p> one alive and others dead is unlikely, a v meter is simple to use, ears simple too
[23:14:03] <Neo_The_User> andypugh, what CPU do you have?
[23:14:10] <MrSunshine> tom3p, well depends on where the voltage spike went doesnt it ? .. if it went out everywhere or if it just took one path .. say 12V cable :P
[23:14:10] <andypugh> Not sure :-)
[23:14:18] <Neo_The_User> heh
[23:14:22] <MrSunshine> just have to find that damn voltage meter
[23:14:29] <MrSunshine> lost both that and the display for my AVR :/
[23:14:31] <Neo_The_User> cat /proc/cpuinfo
[23:14:50] <tom3p> yes your thinking is absolutely correct, determine path with vmeter
[23:15:29] <MrSunshine> aye gonna take that as a project tomorrow if i find the voltage meter .. thanks for the help didnt think of that realy :)
[23:16:05] <andypugh> I was being obuse, the CNC machine is a pair of olde worlde Xeons, and the indoor one is an iMac with a Core Duo
[23:16:22] <MrSunshine> not ever gonna buy a new computer anymore
[23:16:32] <MrSunshine> when i can get a descent one for pennies :)
[23:16:40] <MrSunshine> when someone changes their old :P
[23:16:58] <MrSunshine> bought this one to play games .. $800 or so down the drain as i played for only a month
[23:17:00] <tom3p> in usa?
[23:17:01] <andypugh> I can see me buying a brand new 27" iMac in the not-too-distant..
[23:17:04] <MrSunshine> then it hasve just been standing there
[23:17:11] <MrSunshine> tom3p, me ?
[23:17:15] <tom3p> yes
[23:17:33] <MrSunshine> in sweden but trying to make a currency thingie that people can understand =)
[23:18:26] <andypugh> Gosh! Token ring drivers being compiled now, how useful...
[23:18:33] <Neo_The_User> hahah
[23:18:58] <frallzor> anyone from the UK around?
[23:19:12] <andypugh> The good news is I just saw the parallel port drivers whistle past
[23:19:13] <Neo_The_User> andy is
[23:19:26] <andypugh> Yeah, and archivist, MattyMatt...
[23:19:32] <tom3p> duck!
[23:19:32] <frallzor> andyyyyyyy
[23:19:38] <frallzor> http://www.ukmail.com/index.html ever used these guys?
[23:20:06] <frallzor> Cant find any eta on deliverytimes on that site, thought some uk-guy might have used them =)
[23:20:07] <andypugh> The deliver most of the snail-mail spam I get...
[23:20:41] <andypugh> But I hardly ever post letters
[23:20:54] <frallzor> well you cant mail packages :P
[23:21:00] <frallzor> *email
[23:21:08] <frallzor> before some smart-ass replies :P
[23:21:54] <andypugh> I have always used royal mail parcels.
[23:22:26] <frallzor> no idea where to find eta-times then? :P
[23:22:49] <tom3p> hmmm i thought international post used a unified system... like a single site when i track post from thailand/sg/taiwan/aus
[23:23:04] <tom3p> post as in post office
[23:26:05] <tom3p> sorry old emails dont get me an url
[23:27:49] <tom3p> must be wrong, i found i used EMS but thats not worldwide, just far east post
[23:30:16] <MrSunshine> hmm, all the old mobo says is "M3A <GREEN>"
[23:32:17] <MrSunshine> cant find any info on that :/
[23:32:19] <MrSunshine> about the board
[23:32:54] <tom3p> hold it up so a strong light behind it
[23:33:04] <andypugh> do menu.lst entries require an initrd?
[23:33:23] <Neo_The_User> andypugh, no
[23:33:33] <MrSunshine> tom3p, still stuck in the chassi :/
[23:33:37] <andypugh> OK, lets see what we get then...
[23:33:42] <tom3p> not rqd, but uou tell it where root is
[23:33:45] <MrSunshine> and its half past midnight here so i guess i have to do it tomorrow :)
[23:34:11] <Neo_The_User> andypugh, only when you use mkinitrd or something like that and generate an initial ram disk but it boots up slower
[23:34:26] <Neo_The_User> so your best off just having a base kernel
[23:35:12] <andypugh> Of course, I won't know what it is doing, as it is in the garage with the screen off
[23:35:49] <Neo_The_User> sata drivers = sXX pata = hdXX
[23:36:06] <Neo_The_User> with an inited though, it only uses sdXX
[23:36:10] <Neo_The_User> *initrd
[23:36:18] <andypugh> Bah! no VNC conection, best wander out and see what it says..
[23:36:32] <Neo_The_User> well..
[23:36:43] <Neo_The_User> try editing /etc/fstab to mount the hard drive first
[23:36:56] <Neo_The_User> before rebooting
[23:41:25] <andypugh> Kernel Panic
[23:42:56] <Neo_The_User> ah ok more details please
[23:44:18] <andypugh> not synching something about VFS, mention of sda0,0
[23:44:37] <andypugh> I probably should have taken a pen and paper
[23:44:46] <Neo_The_User> yeah then i could help you fix it
[23:45:01] <Neo_The_User> can you still modify files on the HDD?
[23:45:59] <andypugh> By booting back into the old kernel, yes
[23:46:05] <Neo_The_User> nice!
[23:46:32] <andypugh> You mean there was a risk I wouldn't be able to do that?
[23:46:56] <Neo_The_User> No i just wasn't aware that rebooting still keeps the network alive
[23:47:06] <Neo_The_User> but you would've known that if that were true
[23:47:20] <Neo_The_User> *false
[23:47:21] <andypugh> No, I wandered out to the garage
[23:47:36] <Neo_The_User> sarcasm?
[23:48:24] <andypugh> Let me get the exact panic message
[23:48:52] <Neo_The_User> ok
[23:55:41] <andypugh> [ 0.880113] Kernel Panic - not synching VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(0,0)
[23:56:51] <Neo_The_User> please tell me there is more
[23:57:03] <andypugh> Not on screen, no.
[23:57:36] <Neo_The_User> ok well.. recompile kernel
[23:58:02] <Neo_The_User> first boot into the working kernel
[23:58:25] <Neo_The_User> then im going to make a very small config for you after i get some info from you
[23:58:37] <Neo_The_User> it will compile much faster ;)
[23:59:00] <andypugh> I made two changes to the .config. Presumably that was at least 1 too many.
[23:59:24] <andypugh> I turned on SMP, and I changed the processor type from "Pentium Classic" to "Older Xeon"