#emc | Logs for 2009-09-18

[00:29:21] <cradek> huh, not even raining
[00:33:16] <BJT_Shop> is it suppost to be raining?
[01:10:45] <eric_unterhause1> shouldn't ethernet switches be incredibly cheap?
[03:32:53] <Dave911> Hi guys - does anyone know how to change the Axis toolpath display so it displays properly for a rear tool post lathe (slant back) ??? Hooked up EMC2 to my lathe tonight and the feed axes are working great!
[03:35:16] <cradek> I thought there was an option to flip the display, but I don't see it
[04:43:20] <Jymm> cradek: turn yor monitor around
[07:50:38] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[09:18:45] <Mire> Good morning everybody
[10:04:24] <Valen> howdy
[11:38:07] <EbiDK|AWAY> Hmm, heads up for anyone pondering buying from spreadshirt.net: 20% off all long-sleeved shirts from 28th September – 11th October 2009, coupon code: "Autumn2009".
[14:00:30] <skunkworks> steve b seems to be a hard critic of mach also.
[14:02:26] <Valen> url?
[14:02:48] <skunkworks> so - does anyone know of a source for stock carbon filled ptfe (teflon) piston rings?
[14:03:33] <Valen> still mucking with your piston rings?
[14:03:56] <skunkworks> wait - did I ask this alread?
[14:03:59] <skunkworks> heh
[14:04:00] <Valen> I know you can get glass filled ptfe but it is stupidly expensive
[14:04:07] <Valen> you were talking about it
[14:04:15] <Valen> i forget the specifics though
[14:04:25] <Valen> what were you trying to do again?
[14:04:32] <skunkworks> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DIY-CNC/message/25322
[14:05:54] <skunkworks> it is an r&d project that requires a try piston.
[14:05:58] <skunkworks> *dry
[14:06:03] <skunkworks> (no lube)
[14:07:30] <Valen> you could try straight graphite rings
[14:07:36] <Valen> they use them in some jet engines
[14:07:58] <Valen> they are a bitch to put on though apparently
[14:08:15] <skunkworks> still need a source.. everyone wants to make a 10000 run. :)
[14:08:26] <Valen> graphite you can carve up your self
[14:08:27] <skunkworks> hoping for a company that has some in stock
[14:08:39] <Valen> its basically compressed filth though
[14:09:07] <skunkworks> heh
[14:09:56] <skunkworks> yah - I took one of my little cheap air compressors apart (oilless) and it has a carbon filled teflon ring in it. kinda cool.
[14:10:41] <Valen> sure its carbon filled, not just carbon encrusted ;->
[14:10:55] <skunkworks> it is carbon something.. ;)
[14:11:18] <skunkworks> it is flexable and dirty. ;)
[14:11:35] <Valen> how long does it have to run?
[14:12:27] <skunkworks> well - I kinda want to see how long it will run.. longer the better.
[14:13:06] <skunkworks> I have no clue how long the cheap oilless compressors are supposed to last.
[14:13:13] <Valen> about 5 minutes?
[14:13:29] <Valen> can you say what the application is?
[14:13:34] <Valen> sounds like a dive compressor
[14:13:44] <Valen> although they need mega high pressure
[14:16:07] <skunkworks> no - I don't want to kill anyone.
[14:16:39] <skunkworks> a guy here at work wanted to build a dive tank compressor... I think he gave up after finding out what was involved.
[14:21:02] <Valen> theres 2 ways you can do it
[14:21:07] <Valen> with a really good pump
[14:21:16] <Valen> or a non insane pump and a good filter
[14:21:23] <Valen> option B is usually cheaper ;->
[14:24:18] <Valen> but then buying air is pretty cheap anyway really
[14:24:24] <Valen> spend more on beer ;->
[14:24:44] <skunkworks> heh
[14:24:59] <Valen> yeah so your little problem
[14:25:06] <Valen> how much pressure are you pushing?
[14:26:26] <skunkworks> 100psi - but around 500deg. It is for a drying application here.
[14:26:44] <Valen> 500deg C or F?
[14:27:04] <skunkworks> carbon filled teflon seems to have a working temp of 500deg F
[14:27:13] <skunkworks> or so I hear
[14:27:16] <archivist> ptfe has temperature limits iirc
[14:27:18] <Valen> feels pretty high to me
[14:27:35] <skunkworks> right
[14:27:48] <Valen> 260C is about where it starts to burn off the pan in non stick cookware
[14:28:48] <skunkworks> heh
[14:28:58] <skunkworks> just going by info I have found on the web.
[14:30:09] <Valen> i was going from memory and gut geel
[14:30:10] <Valen> feel
[14:30:14] <skunkworks> http://thirumalaipolyurethane.in/F6269/p_t_f_e_teflon_items.html
[14:30:28] <Valen> at that temp i reckon you would start to see a fair bit of creep
[14:31:21] <Valen> although if you can get plain o-rings it might be worth a shot
[14:31:39] <Valen> you can get non carbon teflon rings for a few cents
[14:32:05] <pjm> afternoon
[14:32:07] <Valen> I would be looking at carbon though
[14:32:14] <Valen> morning
[14:32:50] <Valen> what be happening pjm?
[14:33:05] <pjm> nod a lot here, just winding down for the weekend!
[14:33:10] <pjm> ready to play Mesa cards!
[14:33:17] <Valen> heh fun fun fun ey
[14:33:25] <Valen> I must say it was all rather plug and play for me
[14:33:34] <Valen> and thanks for that tip on the mesa i/o cards too
[14:33:40] <Valen> I'll probably grab one of those
[14:33:46] <skunkworks> Valen: do you know of any sources?
[14:35:08] <Valen> for straight graphite or ptfe rings?
[14:35:27] <skunkworks> strait carbon
[14:35:31] <Valen> there was one
[14:35:37] <Valen> people use it to make rockets out of
[14:35:43] <Valen> there are a few different grades too
[14:35:45] <Valen> lemme see
[14:36:50] <Valen> http://www.aeroconsystems.com/graphite/index.htm
[14:42:55] <skunkworks> thanks
[14:43:57] <Valen> only thing you will need to watch for is its stupidly brittle so it'll be hard to make it expand like normal piston rings
[14:44:19] <Valen> I'd think about putting a few carbon rings in as just a press fit
[15:24:00] <Dave911> >>>does anyone know how to change the Axis toolpath display so it displays properly for a rear tool post lathe (slant back) ???
[15:24:02] <Dave911> Well I'd rather not rotate the screen :-) Or hang up side down. If there is a settingfor this would it be in the integrators manual - if it is possible? Or is there a lot you can do that is not in the integrators manual?
[15:24:18] <Dave911> Skunkworks - where are you located - US?
[15:24:51] <Dave911> I might know of a source for those rings and if they don't have them they probably know who does...
[15:25:43] <skunkworks> I am near lacrosse wi
[15:32:56] <Dave911> OK, I forgot that was you... in WI.
[15:32:58] <Dave911> >> http://www.tmrubber.com/
[15:33:00] <Dave911> I automated their last "lathe" for them - I know they make some very specialized teflon seals and if you tell them what you need - if they can't make it or have it in stock they probably know who does.
[15:33:02] <Dave911> A lot of their work is for gov contracts for jet engines, and a lot of stuff that they have no idea where the seals go and they can't be told etc. Some of the seals they make are very high value.
[15:33:04] <Dave911> But they are like a big mom and pop shop - very friendly folks. I think they are looking for work as some of their bigger customers have slowed down a lot. They sure know a lot about seals of all types.
[15:33:46] <skunkworks> cool - thanks
[15:34:56] <Dave911> Anytime - if you want tell them that "Dave" the guy that did the last lathe upgrade gave you their name...
[15:35:19] <skunkworks> sure
[15:56:25] <jepler> not a whole lot of 5.08mm-pitch screw terminals fit on a 80x100mm circuitboard
[15:57:18] <Jymm> [Jymm(e)] Found a cheap prepad plan... $150 for 75 minutes good for 30 days
[16:05:00] <pjm> Valen so u are gonna build one of they opto cards for the mesa?
[16:30:56] <maximilian_h> Hello, does anybody know how I can automatically estop my machine if the axis gui is inadvertently closed ?
[16:31:25] <cradek> you use a charge pump or watchdog to accomplish that
[16:32:32] <Jymm> cradek: The GUI monitors the chargepump?
[16:32:38] <maximilian_h> can I code it into axis ?
[16:32:42] <jepler> shortly after the DISPLAY program exits, emc2 shuts down. Do you mean you need it to enter estop during that time between the GUI exit and the emc script exit, or do you mean that after emc script exit your machine is not in an estopped state?
[16:33:08] <cradek> this is not a GUI issue
[16:33:33] <maximilian_h> I mean that I want the gui to issue an estop if the axis gui is closed, but the machine is not estopped
[16:34:03] <Jymm> cradek: I know, but I'm asking if AXIS freezes or crashes, would that trigger an estop?
[16:35:11] <maximilian_h> well, I had a problem with a fuse blowing, the machine stopped from the stg watchdog, because I have it wired to stop the amps, but estop is still enabled
[16:35:38] <maximilian_h> and the fuse was for the amps, but not the computer
[16:36:14] <jepler> then you need to improve your real physical estop chain
[16:36:28] <cradek> you should make the stg watchdog estop the machine
[16:36:30] <maximilian_h> then the user (not me) closed the gui and the estop was still off
[16:36:48] <cradek> that would fix all these problems and many more potential problems
[16:37:04] <Jymm> maximilian_h: Does your physical estop chain send a signal to EMC?
[16:37:11] <maximilian_h> I know, than I will make a new pcb shortly
[16:37:35] <maximilian_h> but until then I wanted to know if i can at least make a gui shutdown issue an estop to the machine
[16:38:10] <maximilian_h> yes, my physical estop gets written to EstopSense and the gui sees the estop
[16:38:25] <cradek> sure, a gui shutdown causes a hal shutdown, which causes the charge pump to stop, which causes estop
[16:38:43] <cradek> I don't see how you could add something to the gui that would be better than this
[16:39:10] <maximilian_h> @cradek: By charge pump you are refering to what ?
[16:39:15] <Jymm> I think both SWPadnos and jmkasunich have both had the issue where GUI crashed, but the machien kept running to the end.
[16:39:28] <cradek> charge pump = watchdog
[16:39:34] <cradek> sorry I should say watchdog because that's what stg calls it
[16:40:24] <maximilian_h> just a sec
[16:41:54] <maximilian_h> ok i am back
[16:42:38] <maximilian_h> does axis issue an estop when it gets closed by the big X in the upper right corner ?
[16:42:46] <jepler> No. It exits.
[16:42:57] <jepler> AXIS is not necessarily the only UI
[16:43:05] <maximilian_h> Ah,
[16:43:21] <maximilian_h> can I change that for me ? Because for me axis is the only gui
[16:43:22] <Jymm> jepler: Can it be configured to?
[16:43:35] <jepler> when the [DISPLAY]DISPLAY program exits, emc shuts down.
[16:43:41] <jepler> Jymm: no, that's not currently an option
[16:43:52] <jepler> when emc shuts down, the realtime threads stop running
[16:44:49] <maximilian_h> i agree
[16:44:53] <jepler> in the "axis (or all of linux userspace) crashes" case, that's what the physical estop button is for
[16:45:01] <Jymm> jepler: Is there a way to hook AXIS into HAL, so if ais stops responding a trigger of some sort is sent?
[16:45:11] <jepler> Jymm: no, that's not currently an option
[16:46:03] <Jymm> jepler: Is there a way for HAL to monitor AXIS? I'm not trying to be difficult here, just looking for Q&D alternatives.
[16:46:29] <jepler> Jymm: that way lies madness
[16:46:53] <cradek> maximilian_h: you are of course free to make any change to EMC2 that you like.
[16:47:01] <Jymm> jepler: Since when does software ever implied sanity =)
[16:47:14] <motioncontrol> Good morning. i have a intel chipset mother board and some times exceted realtime deley.i use ubunthu 8.04 version.how possible disable rtai_smi.ko?
[16:47:44] <maximilian_h> I just tried to add a halcmd to the cleanup function in /usr/bin/emc
[16:47:54] <maximilian_h> but somehow it has no effect ?
[16:48:32] <Jymm> jepler: Hmmm, do you think that it might be possible for AXIS to output a "hartbeat" of sorts without effecting it's performance/functionality?
[16:48:41] <Jymm> heartbeat
[16:48:51] <jepler> Jymm: what would that "heartbeat" mean? It wouldn't mean, for instance, that some other application has captured X key events
[16:49:10] <jepler> it wouldn't mean, for instance, that the X server is failing to repaint the screen
[16:49:26] <anonimasu> hm, it would probably mean that the thread with axis is dead or stuck
[16:49:29] <cradek> or the window is covered up so if you hit escape, some other application sees it
[16:49:37] <jepler> it wouldn't mean, for instance, that no other application has used /dev/input to exclusively claim the mouse, preventing the user from clicking on the so-called estop button
[16:49:39] <cradek> it wouldn't add any safety IMO
[16:49:52] <anonimasu> hm, watchdog but for the ui
[16:50:11] <Jymm> jepler: Maybe it outputs a (I can't recall the scheme atm) bitstream and that be watched.
[16:50:46] <cradek> Jymm: talking about implementation is silly if we don't agree on what problem we're trying to solve
[16:50:59] <jepler> motioncontrol: to the best of my knowledge, rtai_smi.ko is NOT used by default. This page describes how to enable it: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?FixingSMIIssues
[16:51:03] <Jymm> jepler: What's that encoding where only a singl bit at a time changes.
[16:51:10] <jepler> if you enabled it yourself in the past, then presuambly undoing the step you took to enable it will disable it
[16:51:51] <maximilian_h> The problem I perceived is that I cannot detect a close down of the gui
[16:52:13] <cradek> you can, because after you close the gui, hal exits
[16:52:38] <cradek> and that causes watchdogs to bite
[16:53:05] <jepler> and proper wiring will cause something in the estop chain to no longer pull in when the watchdog bites
[16:53:07] <cradek> even if you manage to set some state of outputs right after the gui closes, that state will be lost as soon as hal exits and the watchdogs bite
[16:53:23] <anonimasu> cradek: I think jymm wants it to stop the motion in case the ui dies without exiting
[16:53:30] <anonimasu> because that's he's only estop am I right?
[16:53:40] <cradek> anonimasu: it's not clear what "the ui dies" means
[16:53:52] <cradek> nonrealtime programs can and do stop responding to user input for a while sometimes
[16:53:53] <anonimasu> axis exits without being closed properly by the user
[16:53:57] <Jymm> non responsive
[16:54:03] <Jymm> freezes, etc
[16:54:14] <cradek> anonimasu: if it exits, hal exits, and then a properly configured machine estops
[16:55:10] <anonimasu> I see
[16:55:18] <anonimasu> but if it's not a clean exit?
[16:55:47] <cradek> I don't know what that means
[16:56:21] <motioncontrol> jepler, on my pc when i run latency test some time have the latency at 230000 micro sencond, for only one, in the next line test is normal about 9800 microsecond.Is possible the problem is SMI?
[16:58:32] <jepler> motioncontrol: might be, might be some other cause.
[16:58:36] <maximilian_h> methinks, I better change my pcb this weekend and be done with the gui close problem
[16:59:04] <jepler> ooh lunctime here
[16:59:04] <jepler> bbl
[16:59:25] <motioncontrol> jepler, is possible the video card on board?
[16:59:47] <Jymm> cradek: a "non clean exit" where the command is not sent to hal to shut down.
[16:59:53] <maximilian_h> @motioncontrol: The System Management Mode might hit you, but it depends on the firmware/bios
[17:00:10] <maximilian_h> or you might have a bad driver somewhere
[17:02:06] <maximilian_h> you might want to investigate with objdump --disassemble driver.ko | grep cli
[17:02:17] <motioncontrol> maximilian_h, i have read the info of alex foe disable and enable the smi on hardy version:I used this to disable SMI:
[17:02:17] <motioncontrol> sudo insmod /usr/realtime-2.6.24-16-rtai/modules/rtai_smi.ko
[17:02:17] <motioncontrol> sudo rmmod rtai_smi
[17:02:17] <motioncontrol> and later to re-enable:
[17:02:17] <motioncontrol> sudo insmod /usr/realtime-2.6.24-16-rtai/modules/rtai_smi.ko smiReset=1
[17:02:19] <motioncontrol> sudo rmmod rtai_smi
[17:02:21] <motioncontrol> .it is ok?
[17:03:52] <maximilian_h> It might help. I once had a mainboard that could not disable smi
[17:04:07] <maximilian_h> then you can just exchange the mb
[17:06:44] <Jymm> jepler: Ah, 'gray code' is what I was thinking.
[17:07:23] <motioncontrol> maximilian_h, have some help for a good motherboard?
[17:07:59] <maximilian_h> No sorry, I got my ones from ebay
[17:08:27] <maximilian_h> I am looking for a known good one too :)
[17:08:59] <maximilian_h> the problem is that you never know what is running in the system management mode
[17:09:56] <maximilian_h> e.g. I got an old QDI mb that stays in smm for 250ms if you connect anything to the usb ports ;)
[17:10:35] <maximilian_h> that one is totally unuseable for any real time job
[17:11:50] <maximilian_h> Can somebody recommend a mainboard with low latencies that is not too expensive and that is still sold ?
[17:13:33] <motioncontrol> maximilian_h, i thing the asus motherboard with nvia chipset?
[17:15:21] <motioncontrol> maximilian_h, you have some idea for motherboard with 300 us dollar proce?
[17:16:16] <maximilian_h> nvidia has issues with their drivers
[17:16:30] <Jymm> alex_joni: ping
[17:16:34] <maximilian_h> but then you can always use vesa xorg drivers
[17:17:58] <maximilian_h> but no, i don't have any good recommendation for a mb that you can still buy
[17:18:28] <maximilian_h> because I haven't bought a new mb myself yet for emc2 use
[17:20:06] <motioncontrol> maximilian_h, ok i buy a nvia mother board and use vesa driver for grafics card. i thing it good for low latency test
[17:24:20] <Jymm> maximilian_h: I *think* tis is the one that some on here have and gets good latency under EMC... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121359
[17:24:50] <Jymm> maximilian_h: Check with SWPadnos or jmkasunich to confirm the correct model#
[17:29:09] <skunkworks> it has sub 20us latency (barely) but seens to work well. Not stellar.
[17:29:58] <Jymm> ah, SWPadnos lied to me!
[17:30:15] <skunkworks> using the stock livecd
[17:30:24] <skunkworks> others I think have gotten better using smp
[17:30:34] <skunkworks> eric iirc
[17:30:56] <Jymm> Ah, that's right, it is a dual core atom.
[17:31:21] <skunkworks> right
[17:31:47] <Jymm> I wonder if that would perform better than a celeron
[17:31:58] <Jymm> (for general usenot emc specific)
[17:32:22] <skunkworks> I have a few running xp - they seem to work great.
[17:32:34] <skunkworks> I think I have said before - running one as a media pc.
[17:32:41] <Jymm> skunkworks: you runing any heavy video streams?
[17:32:49] <Jymm> Like 30MBps
[17:33:02] <skunkworks> mostly playing dvds and mpeg
[17:33:05] <skunkworks> don't know
[17:33:08] <Jymm> MPEG-2 ?
[17:33:25] <skunkworks> :) don't really know
[17:33:29] <Jymm> =)
[17:34:07] <Jymm> Hmmm, no firewire, damn.
[17:34:21] <skunkworks> nope or dvi
[17:34:47] <Jymm> Eh, DVI I don't care abut as much right now - I can always add a video card.
[17:34:56] <skunkworks> s-video works well for standard def.
[17:35:00] <maximilian_h> hey Jymm, thanks for the link
[17:35:06] <Jymm> maximilian_h: np
[17:35:24] <maximilian_h> i was away at the machine 'investigating' my watchdog
[17:35:28] <Jymm> skunkworks: Nice to hear, that's actually why I like that specific model.
[17:36:24] <maximilian_h> anybody still using an old stg1 with the watchdog out there ?
[17:37:46] <skunkworks> Jymm: with the old tv - I could not read even large font (xp) thru the s-video - but easy to read on the highdef (thru s-video)
[17:38:16] <skunkworks> (but now it is hooked thru vga - 1280X1024.
[17:39:42] <Jymm> skunkworks: Ah. I have a MacMini that I'm planning to replace the existing TVPC, but I need to hi thte Apple store and grab a DVI2S-Video adapter to test it out first. Then I'm thinking BT kybd/mouse, but haven't found an intergrated one yet
[17:42:07] <skunkworks> http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/keyboards/keyboard/devices/4429&&cl=us,en
[17:42:52] <skunkworks> http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/gaming/playstation_3/keyboards/devices/3616&cl=us,en
[17:43:15] <Jymm> Skullworks: Not "desktop" sized, but more coffeetable sized
[17:43:53] <Jymm> Skullworks: I have this now... http://www.bengt-martensson.de/dbox2/DBox2Tastatur.jpg
[17:45:31] <Valen> Get something with an onboard nvidia 9300 or better
[17:45:42] <Valen> you can use it to play blueray with hardware acceleration
[17:45:49] <Valen> direct through mythtv
[17:46:10] <Valen> also SMP gave me much much better latency numbers than without
[17:46:29] <Valen> with SMP i am running a hardware accelerated nvidia card and hitting ~3000 latency
[17:47:11] <skunkworks> what hardware?
[17:47:26] <Valen> oh pjm: i'm probably just going to by the opto from mesa
[17:47:36] <pjm> ah thats what I did
[17:47:36] <Valen> dual Xeon 3.06
[17:47:38] <Valen> old one
[17:47:44] <Valen> its in the wiki
[17:48:23] <Valen> anyway 4:00 am here
[17:48:24] <Valen> night all
[17:48:29] <pjm> gn
[22:22:43] <mikegg> what kind of accelerations do you guys use?
[22:22:56] <mikegg> I got my machine pushin half a G right now
[22:23:15] <Jymm> 7.3G
[22:24:22] <mikegg> thats just crazy talk
[22:24:38] <Jymm> and your point is?
[23:34:04] <ZeroFlex_1> jepperdepep
[23:45:23] <Mire> I have a perplexing tshooting situation concerning hall effect switches. They should want 12v, rite? do they fail short?