#emc | Logs for 2009-08-27

[01:09:02] <SWPadnos> ds3, many (most?) board houses like RS274X now, instead of RS274D
[01:09:22] <SWPadnos> X has the apertures in the file, D has a separate aperture file
[01:09:33] <SWPadnos> though it's still common to specify drill files in Excellon format
[01:09:50] <SWPadnos> either of the RS274 flavors is usually referred to as a gerber file
[01:11:21] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[01:16:54] <ds3> SWPadnos: ah... that explains it
[01:17:11] <SWPadnos> great!
[01:17:16] <SWPadnos> explains what? :)
[01:17:35] <SWPadnos> oh. I see now
[01:17:36] <ds3> SWPadnos: it would be nice to be able to take a gerber + drill file and be able to generate G code to make it and to generate a STEP/IGES model to verify
[01:17:58] <ds3> explains why I see board houses wanting a seperate drill file but people are saying gerbers includes the drill
[01:18:08] <SWPadnos> well, gerber is 2D only - it's assumed that the drills go "all the way through"
[01:18:17] <SWPadnos> oh.
[01:18:21] <ds3> I know gerber is 2D only
[01:18:26] <SWPadnos> well, there are several files you often need to provide
[01:18:30] <ds3> I want a virtual pick and place machine to verify a gerber
[01:19:02] <SWPadnos> there is often a drill plot file, and also a "pad master", which includes drilled and non-drilled (SMT) pads
[01:19:31] <SWPadnos> the plot file has a symbol of some sort at each drill location - different symbols for each drill size
[01:19:35] <ds3> hmmmm haven't seen those
[01:20:04] <SWPadnos> you're not missing much
[01:20:23] <ds3> closests to let me do all that is the altrium stuff but that is $$$$$$$$$$
[01:20:42] <SWPadnos> yes I know - that's what I have
[01:21:21] <ds3> I just want to eventually do that with the gerbers only so it will be more ecad package independant
[01:21:44] <SWPadnos> well, that's tough to do
[01:21:55] <SWPadnos> gerbers have plot information, not design information
[01:22:12] <SWPadnos> so it's hard to know what to do if there's e.g. a filled polygon area
[01:22:15] <ds3> holes can identify through hole parts; pads are available
[01:22:38] <SWPadnos> it might be a crosshatch of tracks, or it could be any pattern that fills the area completely (for a solid fill)
[01:23:04] <SWPadnos> some pads are drawn, others are "flash" (used to be a separate physical apterture on the optical plotter)
[01:23:43] <SWPadnos> and there's no way to know which pads go together as a component
[01:23:52] <SWPadnos> (you can sort of tell, but not always)
[01:24:28] <SWPadnos> so you'd need a pretty smart program, that looks at silkscreen layers as well as copper layers, to ever be able to edit something from gerber information alone
[01:29:57] <ds3> isn't there some standard they use to feed a pick and place machine?
[01:30:06] <tomp> tomp is now known as tom3p
[01:30:33] <SWPadnos> sure, they're generically called centroid files (like the geometric dcentroid, not the CNC controller :) )
[01:30:59] <SWPadnos> hmmm - one sec
[01:32:02] <SWPadnos> here's a small sample: http://pastebin.ca/1544137
[01:32:15] <SWPadnos> that's just what Altium outputs by default
[01:32:34] <SWPadnos> (pasted in from a spreadsheet, so the tabs are all wrong)
[01:33:38] <SWPadnos> Mid X nad Mid Y are the point the pickup should go to, Ref X and Ref Y are generally the location of pin 1
[01:34:10] <tom3p> any help? http://www.screamingcircuits.com/Portals/0/documents/Understanding%20the%20Centroid%20file.pdf
[01:34:14] <SWPadnos> the only other information that's important is the rotation (and layer I guess, since those parts have to be mirrored)
[01:37:24] <SWPadnos> oh - good level of detail in that document. thanks
[01:38:15] <SWPadnos> tom3p, have you used them?
[01:38:26] <SWPadnos> (screaming circuits, not centroid files)
[01:41:19] <ds3> a starter would be to manually locate the parts
[01:43:48] <tom3p> SWPadnos: no, tho a pick and place is a good app for emc ( and a chance for a non gcode command language )
[01:44:30] <SWPadnos> possibly, but it's a very different application
[01:44:31] <mozmck> I've got a pick and place machine I might try and convert to emc...
[01:44:41] <SWPadnos> it's not path following, it's rapid positioning
[01:45:09] <SWPadnos> the only reason to slow down is if you're carrying a large part that might fall off the vacuum pickup
[01:45:16] <SWPadnos> or shift significantly
[01:56:06] <ds3> start with a virtual one
[03:38:01] <toastyde1th> anybody familiar with the color force
[03:38:22] <SWPadnos> is that like blue?
[03:39:17] <toastyde1th> A BIT
[03:40:03] <SWPadnos> ok
[03:40:11] <SWPadnos> then to answer your question, I'd have to say no
[03:40:55] <toastyde1th> damnit swpadnos, know everything
[03:41:32] <SWPadnos> unless you're talking about Voltron Force, with their differnet-colored lions
[03:42:50] <toastyde1th> no, too many colors
[03:43:10] <toastyde1th> i'm talking about the color force that holds protons together (and neutrons)
[03:43:57] <SWPadnos> oh hmm
[03:44:06] <SWPadnos> I haven't heard of that term
[03:44:24] <dmess> thats made of quirks and quarks... of particle physics...
[03:44:29] <SWPadnos> Is it considered something other than the weak or strong force?
[03:44:34] <toastyde1th> i have been trying to find somebody who can explain to me why the residual effects of color charge wind up holding nuclei together, in addition to holding the hadrons in the nucleus together
[03:44:40] <toastyde1th> the color force is the strong force
[03:44:43] <SWPadnos> ok
[03:44:45] <toastyde1th> quantum chromodynamics
[03:45:07] <dmess> corroec Toast
[03:45:15] <SWPadnos> I'd be surprised if anyone knows why
[03:45:23] <SWPadnos> possibly how, but why is unlikely
[03:45:25] <toastyde1th> not really "why," but "how"
[03:45:29] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:46:30] <dmess> its all about the differance betwen blue and red... but the particulars..are WAY out there..
[03:47:06] <toastyde1th> blue and red are not opposite charges in QCD, blue/antiblue and red/antired are
[03:47:12] <toastyde1th> (and green/antigreen)
[03:47:17] <toastyde1th> i get all that, at least verbally
[03:47:44] <toastyde1th> i don't get how those forces between quark triplets, which seem to sum to zero, give rise to a force external to the hadron
[03:48:00] <toastyde1th> i just figured here was another good place to ask, as people tend to be into some weird stuff
[03:48:05] <dmess> but what was it more of... R/G/ or B
[03:48:46] <toastyde1th> charge is quantized, there's no concept of "more" charge
[03:48:48] <dmess> there are semi-masters of all domains here it seems.
[03:48:50] <toastyde1th> you have units of charge
[03:49:03] <toastyde1th> one, two, three, etc, but not 1.4 units, for example
[03:49:16] <dmess> i understand
[03:49:31] <SWPadnos> at the quantum physics scale, things are "lumpy"
[03:49:47] <dmess> been dreaming particle phisics since i was 18
[03:50:09] <SWPadnos> so you might have a finite number of possible states, and a probability distribution that something is one or another state
[03:50:24] <toastyde1th> yep
[03:50:47] <SWPadnos> I don't know if that applies here
[03:50:58] <SWPadnos> but since quarks are pretty tiny, it might
[03:50:59] <dmess> yes... probability... but only 1 TRUE state.. you cant confirm
[03:51:18] <SWPadnos> or all states, with certain ones becoming more apparent as you observe the situation ...
[03:51:37] <toastyde1th> it applies to quarks but in a strange way.
[03:51:56] <SWPadnos> or multiple simultaneous states, but you can't tell which (like Schrodinger's cat)
[03:52:00] <toastyde1th> because the force does not vary with distance, you don't get a nice lobed distribution like an electron orbital
[03:52:00] <SWPadnos> har har ;)
[03:52:04] <toastyde1th> lol
[03:52:11] <dmess> and its the Q&Q's that drive the final state of equilibrium
[03:52:30] <toastyde1th> but probability distribution aside, i still don't know why quark triplets can hold other quark triplets nearby
[03:52:31] <SWPadnos> why do you say the force doesn't vary with distance?
[03:52:37] <toastyde1th> swpadnos: because it doesn't
[03:52:45] <SWPadnos> the strong force drops off at something like R^4
[03:52:52] <toastyde1th> the further you pull a quark away from it's mates, the harder it pulls back
[03:53:22] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[03:53:23] <toastyde1th> and when you finally pull hard enough to break it free, it instantly (as in zero time) snaps to another quark in another hadron to form yet another hadron
[03:53:29] <dmess> yes.. it is like negative gravity effect
[03:53:30] <SWPadnos> must not be the same strong force
[03:53:30] <toastyde1th> so you can't free a quark
[03:53:40] <toastyde1th> nah, there's only four forces
[03:54:08] <toastyde1th> gravity, quantum electrodynamics, quantum flavordynamics, and quantum chromodynamics
[03:54:21] <SWPadnos> but I dun larned it like it gets real weak-like as you get further aways
[03:54:33] <toastyde1th> the fields get weak, yeah
[03:54:48] <dmess> but the fprce is inverse
[03:54:54] <dmess> fore
[03:54:58] <dmess> force
[03:55:00] <toastyde1th> they're also very tubelike instead of what we think of as fields
[03:55:12] <toastyde1th> i.e. iron filings around a perminant magnet
[03:55:33] <toastyde1th> so they don't have much range at all, but the forces involved are astronomical
[03:55:39] <dmess> its a pussh you pull me type of relationship.... at 0.. it pops
[03:56:15] <SWPadnos> well, one day I'll read about it
[03:56:22] <SWPadnos> but for now, I think I'll go to sleep
[03:56:25] <SWPadnos> night guys
[03:56:26] <toastyde1th> night
[03:56:38] <dmess> night...
[03:57:12] <dmess> toast... you into particle physics on a regular basis...
[03:57:28] <toastyde1th> yeah
[03:57:48] <toastyde1th> i spend a lot of time reading about it, i'd like to double major in physics + engineering when I get to a 4 year school
[03:57:53] <dmess> i need some help to explain over-unity... and demonstrate it
[03:58:02] <toastyde1th> i don't know what that is.
[03:58:04] <fenn> this may be of interest to folks here: http://fennetic.net/irc/cycloidal_9_10.svg http://fennetic.net/irc/cycloidal.py
[03:58:30] <dmess> making more energy than it takes to produce it
[03:59:11] <dmess> hmm cool lookin' gyrotor pump...
[03:59:19] <dmess> fenn
[03:59:34] <fenn> i'm stumped how to get more clearance without changing the number of teeth
[03:59:40] <dmess> positive displacement.. proportional to rpm
[04:00:02] <fenn> it's a cycloidal reduction gear
[04:00:15] <fenn> 9:1 reduction ratio
[04:00:48] <dmess> drop the cprner rads on the tooth form by 10 %
[04:00:54] <dmess> corner
[04:00:59] <fenn> no such thing
[04:01:25] <dmess> what do you mean
[04:01:37] <fenn> the whole tooth is radius
[04:02:33] <dmess> so lower the inner tooths full rad and it will give clearance to the outer form
[04:03:44] <dmess> have you tried an odd # of teeth... our pumps all had odd #'d lobes as we called them
[04:06:18] <dmess> Toast... ever seen 1 of them shaker flash light's...??
[04:06:34] <toastyde1th> yeah
[04:07:15] <dmess> you shake it.. it charges a capacitor or small battery.. then works
[04:07:57] <toastyde1th> yep
[04:09:13] <dmess> What if we alternatly dropped the 2 magnets on a pulley... 1 heavy 1 light... 1 moves up thru the coils.. 1 down... both make E nut only 1 is driven.. by H2O
[04:09:29] <dmess> or the mass of h2o
[04:10:02] <toastyde1th> and then what
[04:10:07] <dmess> but only 1 is driven buy G
[04:10:10] <toastyde1th> you're driving it with water.
[04:10:26] <toastyde1th> all mass interacts with gravity, i don't understand what you're explaining.
[04:11:10] <dmess> continuous electrical potential wit 1/2 the necessary requirement to produce it... 2 X unity
[04:11:41] <toastyde1th> if you think it works that way then just build it
[04:11:52] <dmess> You ARE understanding.. trust me... it all the othe @!#$heads that dont
[04:11:54] <toastyde1th> because i still don't understand the mechanism you've proposed
[04:15:02] <fenn> wow i can't believe you're still going on about pouring water down a hole
[04:15:49] <dmess> imagine a pully in the sky... 2 big magnets with watter buckets on them... when 1 magnet/ side is up... add water...(mass) the other magnet weighs the same... and it on the bottom... so it starts to rise as the other starts to fall... while in the coils it makes electricity.. 1 coil + dc the other - dc... invert and store to battery back-up and voila.. over unity by 2 x
[04:16:24] <toastyde1th> 1) it took energy to get everything up in the first place, including water
[04:16:35] <dmess> Fenn... its not a dream its an obsession... and WILL work.... you'll see
[04:16:44] <fenn> so do it
[04:16:56] <fenn> i suggest starting small so you won't feel bad when it doesn't work
[04:17:25] <toastyde1th> in order to get the mass necessary to get a magnet to drop, you had to do an equal amount of work somewhere else to get the water up that high
[04:17:37] <toastyde1th> if you let nature do that work, you've just invented a hydroelectric dam
[04:17:38] <dmess> i will... but can i feel HIGH when it does.
[04:18:41] <fenn> scaling the inner gear by 0.99 seems to look ok
[04:18:49] <dmess> i start with the water @ ground level.. then dont really worry about geting it back up... have more here USE it
[04:19:06] <dmess> Fenn Cool
[04:19:13] <toastyde1th> that's where you're screwing up, the water has to come from somewhere
[04:19:38] <toastyde1th> if you start at ground level, then the water's falling into a pit and the pit will fill up
[04:19:38] <dmess> i have a creek in the back yard... no sweat
[04:19:47] <fenn> water comes from the sky! :)
[04:19:51] <toastyde1th> dmess: you've just re-invented the hydroelectric dam
[04:19:56] <fenn> it's free energy
[04:20:04] <toastyde1th> you're taking energy out of one system to use it in another
[04:20:05] <dmess> the idea is to use an old abandoned mine
[04:20:31] <skinnypup> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy
[04:20:33] <toastyde1th> whether you dam up a creek or use an abandoned mine
[04:20:40] <toastyde1th> it's still a hydroelectric dam
[04:20:49] <toastyde1th> because you're using the energy coming from SOMEWHERE ELSE
[04:20:50] <dmess> they are still working adjascent mines and
[04:20:50] <dmess> NEED to keep them pumped... so it wont be MY problem
[04:21:03] <toastyde1th> okay, but that's not this "over unity" thing
[04:21:11] <toastyde1th> ethics issues aside
[04:21:31] <toastyde1th> that's "under unity," using somebody else's electric bill to subtract from your own
[04:22:05] <dmess> i still think i could pump all of MY h20 out of the mine and still have power left to use
[04:22:14] <toastyde1th> i don't?
[04:22:21] <toastyde1th> that exact mechanism has been proposed many a time throughout history
[04:22:32] <toastyde1th> it's one of the most popular perpetual motion machines
[04:22:37] <dmess> this system uses minimal water as mass....
[04:23:07] <toastyde1th> so?
[04:23:21] <toastyde1th> then you're going to get minimal energy out of it, and the amount you get out will be less than what you put in
[04:23:30] <dmess> not to rape electricity from gravity without a turbine of some sort
[04:23:44] <toastyde1th> turbines are really efficient, actually
[04:24:13] <fenn> dmess: that would be equivalent to a wheel that spins itself
[04:24:14] <dmess> oh and gravity direct should be less efficient??
[04:24:24] <fenn> one side of the wheel falls, the other raises
[04:24:33] <toastyde1th> sure it's less efficient, you're just making a waterwheel
[04:24:38] <toastyde1th> on a pully instead of a wheel
[04:24:43] <dmess> absoluly correct... but mine works
[04:24:58] <toastyde1th> no doubt it works, they used waterwheels for all sorts of things pre-industrial revolution
[04:25:01] <skinnypup> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankine_cycle may be of interest
[04:25:09] <toastyde1th> the issue is not if it will work, it's if it is a perpetual motion machine
[04:25:10] <toastyde1th> and it isn't
[04:25:15] <dmess> its all about the switching from going up to going down
[04:25:23] <toastyde1th> no, it's not
[04:25:37] <fenn> you can't pump the water back up with less energy than you got out of it going down
[04:26:09] <fenn> water going down = falling side of wheel
[04:26:14] <fenn> water coming up = rising side of wheel
[04:26:23] <dmess> it isnt a p machine... it should be a perpetual generator....
[04:26:59] <toastyde1th> Okay, like, let's think this out. You have this fixed resivoir of water, eh? It is sitting up above your pulley deal.
[04:27:32] <toastyde1th> you start your machine. Whichever bucket is up is filled, then it starts to drop.
[04:27:45] <toastyde1th> so under this imbalance, the other side rises, and the heavy side falls.
[04:27:47] <dmess> i would be droping say 1000kg magnets with 100 kg h2o... the magnets make E the aqua dont
[04:27:55] <toastyde1th> no, the magnets do not make the electricty
[04:28:01] <toastyde1th> the fields moving past the coils make the electricity
[04:28:09] <toastyde1th> the size of the magnet means diddily if you're not moving it fast
[04:28:39] <toastyde1th> so you've only put the amount of force the 100 kg of water can accumulate under the force of gravity into it
[04:29:13] <toastyde1th> once it hits the coils, the field will imediately start pulling energy out of the falling magnet, and thus losing velocity
[04:29:38] <dmess> hmm but as gravity accelerate @ 9.8 m/s sooner or later i'll be moving fast... i'm dreamin' 3000 M shaft here
[04:30:01] <toastyde1th> right, but you've just created a turbine
[04:30:13] <toastyde1th> you dump the water at the bottom - then fill the other side
[04:30:17] <toastyde1th> now any residual momentum you had?
[04:30:19] <toastyde1th> you just lost it
[04:30:24] <dmess> on the pulley yes.. i understand
[04:30:24] <toastyde1th> because you're using a seesaw motion
[04:30:38] <toastyde1th> but even if you were to make it a cyclic loop that could hold momentum
[04:30:42] <toastyde1th> i.e. a turbine
[04:31:00] <toastyde1th> you eventually run out of water - and have to get some way of pumping the water BACK UP to your resivoir.
[04:31:02] <dmess> im thinking miltiple tubes...
[04:31:18] <toastyde1th> and here's the crux, and is why you're not generating any additional power.
[04:31:29] <toastyde1th> either you have to spend the same amount of energy you gained in the first place
[04:31:35] <toastyde1th> to put the water back
[04:32:09] <toastyde1th> OR you just let it fall from "ground level" into a mine, and then the mine fills up until the water level is above the couls.
[04:32:12] <toastyde1th> *coils
[04:32:23] <toastyde1th> if you pump the mine out, you've just done the exact same thing as before - raised the water.
[04:32:37] <dmess> but water has been flowing into this hole for going on 100 yrs and it they have'nt let it fill up yet..
[04:32:46] <toastyde1th> so? THEY'RE spending the energy.
[04:32:56] <toastyde1th> it isn't free, it isn't a perpetual generator
[04:33:10] <toastyde1th> all you're proposing is stealing from the company doing the mine maitnence
[04:33:24] <toastyde1th> since they're spending the money to pump the wayer out that you're pouring down into the mine.
[04:33:33] <dmess> no but should still be re-claimable...
[04:33:37] <toastyde1th> it isn't.
[04:33:51] <toastyde1th> it's lost the energy it had by virtue of height.
[04:34:05] <toastyde1th> in order to raise an object, you need do work, which requires energy.
[04:34:24] <toastyde1th> if you were able to capture 100% of all the energy the water lost by falling with your frictionless, perfect contraption
[04:34:27] <dmess> small scale this winter i hope once the hardinge is running
[04:34:34] <toastyde1th> you'd need to immediately spend it again to get the water out.
[04:34:41] <toastyde1th> except in this case, you're trying to hoist the bill on someone else.
[04:35:03] <toastyde1th> it will absolutely work, it's just stealing because it's not truly free energy.
[04:35:19] <dmess> as i said.. getting it out isnt a priority... they can pump it from shaft #1
[04:35:27] <toastyde1th> you're not listening to me
[04:35:40] <toastyde1th> you are stealing from them, because every pound of water you put down there
[04:35:47] <toastyde1th> is a pound they have to spend money on their electric bill to raise
[04:35:52] <toastyde1th> the electricity comes from a powerplant
[04:35:55] <toastyde1th> which probably burns coal
[04:36:02] <toastyde1th> which is not an unlimited resource
[04:36:07] <dmess> not stealing... the mine will be involve... lookin for green energy solutions
[04:36:24] <toastyde1th> it isn't a damn green energy solution unless they're using green energy to pump the mine to begin with
[04:36:35] <toastyde1th> because you're TAKING their energy, wherever they're getting it from
[04:36:36] <skinnypup> skinnypup, lol's @ green energy
[04:37:01] <dmess> so if we could do a 1:1 would it not be green
[04:37:11] <toastyde1th> if you could do 1:1 you'd be doing zero work
[04:37:18] <toastyde1th> and you'd just have a perpetual motion machine
[04:37:26] <toastyde1th> as soon as you take energy out of the system and use it for something else
[04:37:36] <toastyde1th> you have to put that energy BACK into the wayer
[04:37:37] <toastyde1th> *water
[04:37:43] <dmess> and be keeping a mine empty of water?
[04:37:58] <toastyde1th> you're not understanding me at all
[04:38:15] <dmess> so boys could get gold @ almost 1000/oz
[04:38:38] <dmess> i am.. no worries
[04:38:41] <toastyde1th> what does that have to do with power?
[04:39:03] <toastyde1th> you're taking water at ground level, and dumping it underground - the water underground has less potential energy than at ground level
[04:39:13] <dmess> thats why they have kept it pumpen for the last 100 yrs or so
[04:39:18] <toastyde1th> in order to raise it back up to the surface level, you have to put ALL the energy it lost back into it by raising it
[04:39:39] <toastyde1th> okay wait, you can't justify theft by saying they're going to make money by pulling gold out of the water they pump
[04:39:56] <toastyde1th> you're STILL burning coal
[04:39:59] <toastyde1th> just very indirectly
[04:40:15] <fenn> maybe you should dump cyanide water down the hole instead
[04:40:28] <puddingpimp> toastyde1th, can't definitely say it's theft, it's more like environmental vandalism or pollution
[04:40:29] <DaViruz> or concrete
[04:40:33] <DaViruz> that would end this argument
[04:40:42] <toastyde1th> puddingpimp: i'm making the moral argument that it's theft
[04:40:45] <toastyde1th> not a legal argument
[04:41:30] <toastyde1th> he gets power out of it, but the company he's affecting has to spend that and then some more for every watt he takes
[04:42:03] <toastyde1th> and all of this is irrelevent to the fact it isn't "over-unity" or a perpetual generator, or whatever you want to call it
[04:42:18] <toastyde1th> it's just a complicated and morally dubious waterwheel
[04:42:34] <dmess> hmmm i like that term...
[04:42:50] <dmess> "morally dubious"
[04:43:02] <puddingpimp> toastyde1th, well I agree with that point, but shifting costs onto someone else is morally dubious, but doesn't constitute theft
[04:43:05] <DaViruz> i wonder how much energy you could harness from the roof gutters of a normally sice residence on a particularly rainy day
[04:43:14] <DaViruz> sized
[04:43:28] <toastyde1th> puddingpimp: how is theft defined then, in an absense of legal arguements?
[04:43:38] <toastyde1th> what is moral theft that it would exclude this?
[04:43:51] <dmess> i was always leaning to home size independant generatros
[04:44:04] <toastyde1th> also if you've got as much head as a mineshaft offers, don't use a damn bucket system
[04:44:23] <puddingpimp> toastyde1th, is defined as taking something which doesn't belong to you, the energy in the water belongs to him (assuming he owns the water), just dumping it down the mine is probably illegal
[04:44:24] <toastyde1th> that wastes all the head you've got, design a turbine to take advantage of it
[04:44:37] <skinnypup> Another consequence of this law is that perpetual motion machines can only work perpetually if they deliver no energy to their surroundings. If such machines produce more energy than is put into them, they must lose mass and thus eventually disappear over perpetual time, and are therefore impossible.
[04:44:58] <toastyde1th> puddingpimp: i'm asking you for a definition of theft in the moral sense
[04:45:22] <toastyde1th> i understand what the legal definition is.
[04:45:28] <puddingpimp> toastyde1th, well I don't think there is one, except that theft is immoral in the moral sense
[04:45:49] <dmess> no.. a turbine uses water for a very small percentage of the time it hold it.. i use it longer slower... better
[04:46:00] <toastyde1th> dmess, no you don't
[04:46:10] <toastyde1th> turbines with high head pressure are VERY efficient
[04:46:14] <puddingpimp> I think the only distinction you could really make is when someone takes something which they have a legal right to, but which greatly harms others, could be considered moral theft
[04:46:18] <toastyde1th> they're the most desirable form of hydropower there is
[04:46:20] <tom3p> ok, this perpmotion thing wont end... the pid comp outputs pid.N.output float out . what is the unit/what does 1.0 mean? how can it connect to the bits of a DAC?
[04:47:08] <dmess> thx Tom3p...
[04:47:52] <dmess> I need to go to bed and me and Toast have been here before haven't we...
[04:48:12] <tom3p> wasnt meant to be a segway, i wanna know something about how emc outputs the analog of the detected error
[04:48:22] <toastyde1th> i'm back to finding out how chromodynamics holds atoms together.
[04:49:48] <puddingpimp> toastyde1th, would it make any difference to the efficiency if the turbine was at the top or bottom of the shaft, given a sealed ingress/egress pipe?
[04:50:05] <puddingpimp> aside from the electrical losses if the generator was at the bottom
[04:50:13] <dmess> I'll ask a friend at work tommorrow if he knows anything.. he drew the short stra and had Chromo-D assighned as his thesis..LOL teach hom to be late for class
[04:50:40] <toastyde1th> puddingpimp: i believe so
[04:51:06] <toastyde1th> i think you get a pressure gradient in the pipe
[04:51:23] <DaViruz> that would depend on the shaft length i believe
[04:51:31] <toastyde1th> perhaps if you had some totally sealed, weird system where you had no way to get air back up the pipe
[04:51:35] <toastyde1th> because of that gradient
[04:51:44] <DaViruz> since the water can only "pull" one atmosphere of pressure
[04:51:50] <toastyde1th> yeah
[04:51:57] <DaViruz> but can "push" unlimited pressure
[04:52:28] <puddingpimp> well that would only affect the maximum load you could put on the turbine output shaft, not the efficiency of conversion
[04:52:28] <toastyde1th> the pump would cavitate past one atm, but up until then if you could keep air out of the exhaust tube it might be comparable
[04:52:31] <toastyde1th> i'm not sure.
[04:52:41] <dmess> we arent talking closed loop... but it has been considered
[04:53:27] <dmess> the suction.. on the up side would provide - pressure as well if closed
[04:53:58] <toastyde1th> puddingpimp: if you had the capacity to build a system where the water just gained velocity throughout the whole of the pipe, up to one atm, and nothing weird like air came in
[04:54:09] <toastyde1th> the turbine should come to the same speed no matter where in the pipe it was
[04:54:48] <puddingpimp> toastyde1th, so basically you'd put the turbine at the bottom to prevent getting vapourlock in the turbine
[04:55:00] <toastyde1th> indeed, and because it's pressure based
[04:55:06] <toastyde1th> rather than vacuum
[04:55:10] <toastyde1th> "vacuum"
[04:57:53] <dmess> gotta hit the pit sorry for starting this again guys...
[04:58:31] <dmess> give it some thoiught... it didnt hit in a dream bcz its bad
[05:01:29] <puddingpimp> where would you get enough water from? I imagine it would cost more from a municipal supply than any energy you'd get dropping it down a mine
[05:01:44] <toastyde1th> a creek, or so it's said.
[05:03:54] <puddingpimp> I always wonder about parasitic energy, like if you hang neon tubes under a HT powerline (I'm told), they will glow
[05:04:27] <puddingpimp> does that add extra load to the HT line, or is it already emitted from the lines and otherwise wasted
[05:05:29] <skinnypup> thought they were flourescent tubes
[05:05:38] <puddingpimp> yea, that's what I mean
[05:05:49] <puddingpimp> never actually done it or seen it myself
[05:06:41] <puddingpimp> is it caused by ionic discharge or magnetic interference
[05:17:22] <toastyde1th> it does leech
[05:17:28] <toastyde1th> but it's already losing it by virtue of being a big damn antenna
[05:19:16] <toastyde1th> so i guess that doesn't help you any
[05:19:33] <toastyde1th> i just like to hear myself talk sometimes.
[05:21:16] <puddingpimp> toastyde1th, still doesn't answer weather it's electrical ionisation (ie stray electrons heading to ground through the air) or magnetic coupling causing a voltage across the tube
[05:21:37] <puddingpimp> my guess is the former, as there's not really anything highly inductive about a flurescent tube
[05:32:43] <Valen> mythbusters busted that one
[05:33:12] <Valen> as a method of getting usefull power
[05:34:41] <toastyde1th> nobody said anything about power
[06:07:16] <puddingpimp> what do people use here for designing things prior to CAM conversion?
[08:56:04] <numen> hello
[08:56:29] <numen> i have problem with emc2, on reference, it loose some steps, on normal not, how can i fix that?
[08:56:59] <archivist> reduce speed a bit
[08:57:07] <numen> which line is it?
[08:57:10] <archivist> and reduce acceleration
[08:57:37] <numen> accekeratuib us 10, i think, this should work?
[08:57:37] <alex_joni> MAX_VELOCITY and MAX_ACCELERATION
[08:57:41] <numen> in manual mode, it works
[08:57:52] <numen> max_velocity is 4.5
[08:58:55] <numen> i changed max_velocity to 2.5 but it still shows me 150
[08:59:02] <numen> where is this set?
[08:59:34] <archivist> alex_joni, I have a suspicion there is a bug in the acceleration area of steppers, just not quantified it yet
[09:00:23] <numen> i can set, whatever i want, but it is still 150
[09:00:29] <numen> how can i set this manual?
[09:01:05] <numen> it ignores my settings...
[09:02:09] <numen> is that a bug, or did i something wrong?
[09:07:34] <alex_joni> in the ini you have units/second
[09:07:40] <alex_joni> in the GUI you have units/minute
[09:07:52] <alex_joni> 2.5 * 60 = 150
[09:13:19] <alex_joni> archivist: halscope is the tool to "quantify" it ...
[09:14:59] <archivist> alex_joni, I know the numbers we add to emc dont match a steppers needs, each motor has a curve not a max
[09:15:04] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[10:01:22] <alex_joni> http://windows7sins.org/
[10:04:55] <archivist> alex_joni, a good one for you, M$ MSSQL has a fulltext search, that phones home! during a search
[10:05:24] <archivist> so its borked if used offline
[10:17:53] <clip9> what?
[10:24:44] <puddingpimp> archivist, how the hell does that scale?!? if you're running several hundred fulltext searches a second, that's several hundred phonehomes a second
[10:25:41] <archivist> just trying to refind the m$ knowledge base article
[10:26:32] <archivist> remember the are charging the customer to provide the "service"
[10:29:30] <archivist> http://support.microsoft.com/?scid=kb%3Ben-us%3B915850&x=15&y=8
[10:31:40] <clip9> crazy
[10:36:50] <archivist> I like quoting M$ for their own breakage :) and not some bitter twisted external source
[10:36:53] <Valen> it doesn't say its actually phoning microsoft
[10:37:25] <Valen> it could presumably be phoning any certification system?
[10:39:33] <Valen> ahh
[10:39:34] <archivist> looking at the workaround at the bottom it has to be calling m$
[10:39:52] <Valen> yeah looks like
[10:40:24] <Valen> its some kind of "validation" thing to make sure the sw your running is not virused to some shit i guess
[10:40:34] <Valen> bs load of crap as usual I spose
[10:40:51] <archivist> but in the middle of its day job is not the right place to do it
[10:41:50] <archivist> imagine EMC milling a part then stopping yo phone home, am I valid...oops messed up a part
[10:43:03] <Valen> I didn't say it was a *good* idea
[10:46:30] <Valen> but its not like its sending your search terms to microsoft
[10:47:44] <archivist> er you dont know that
[10:54:56] <Valen> if its doing a certificate verification it will be pretty obvious in a dump of the transaction
[10:55:11] <Valen> vs sending "hot wet stinky sex" in the packets
[10:56:08] <archivist> I dont have it to test
[10:57:16] <Valen> I'd imagne somebody else would have though
[11:18:40] <numen> hmmm my stepper dont want to run anymore, direct on controller it works, but mounted on the axis it does not work anymore...¨
[11:18:47] <numen> anyone an idea?
[11:19:58] <archivist> undo your changes and retry one by one, learn to debug
[11:20:12] <numen> in software i did not any changes
[11:20:26] <archivist> and test ON the machine loose will give you invalid results
[11:20:28] <numen> if i connect the stepper direct to the stepper controller, it works
[11:20:43] <numen> it does not turn...
[11:24:46] <archivist> do you think you have provided any suitable information for use to guess your problem
[11:25:40] <numen> what kind of information do you need?
[11:26:57] <archivist> I am trying to get you to think independently
[11:27:42] <numen> i use a step3d stepper controller, if i use it not mouted on the axis, i cant stop it by hand, but i can move the axis quiet easy by hand
[11:28:43] <archivist> what mechanical part did you forget
[11:33:12] <numen> want to see a pic?
[11:33:54] <archivist> I want you to look at the obvious
[11:40:37] <numen> mom pics commes in a few moments
[11:41:12] <numen> http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=snc000423ylb.jpg
[11:43:33] <archivist> a picture of a motor not fitted fully, only you at the machine can feel for and see problems
[11:43:53] <numen> i unfitted the motor for testing
[11:44:15] <numen> not mounted on the axis, it works, but fitted not...
[11:44:42] <Valen> have you looked to see if the axis is locked?
[11:44:57] <numen> i fitted
[11:45:02] <clip9> Maybe a short?
[11:45:09] <numen> the axis i can move with 2hans
[11:45:11] <numen> hands
[11:45:14] <numen> fingers
[11:45:28] <numen> clip9 nope motor unfitted it works, no short
[11:45:50] <archivist> fiddled with the current?
[11:46:28] <numen> i am on max now
[11:47:01] <archivist> changed the acceleration?
[11:48:19] <numen> set the acceleration to 5
[11:48:21] <numen> works not
[11:48:29] <Valen> does it "try" at all?
[11:48:57] <clip9> Could still be a short. If the mill is grounded and one of the leads are shorted against the motor case.
[11:49:23] <numen> clip9 it works, too, if i put the stepper on the maschine
[11:49:29] <clip9> oh
[11:49:34] <archivist> he has been playing with the acceleration and we dont know what else
[11:49:57] <archivist> not a methodical thinker
[11:50:08] <numen> archivist nothing else
[11:50:20] <numen> acceleration i changed, when it did not work
[11:50:26] <archivist> worked before you chaged it
[11:50:32] <numen> i changed the stepper... but the new one works...
[11:50:33] <clip9> This is why is use git for the configs :P
[11:50:47] <numen> i changed the stepper
[11:51:10] <numen> after it did not worked, i changed acceleration
[11:54:55] <archivist> and another point, "changed motor" same type power and wiring etc
[11:55:25] <archivist> you do see that you have only just mentioned that
[11:58:19] <numen> motor use different current and different wiering, but the motor not fitted on the axis works... i think, its not an electronik problem...
[11:58:52] <archivist> what is the torque rating
[11:59:39] <clip9> Why does axis-remote --reload only work sometimes? I'm trying to call axis-remote --reload from a M1xx file but it oly works like 50% of the time.
[12:00:40] <clip9> i must be missing something here :P
[12:01:10] <numen> archivist torque rate i dont know
[12:01:22] <numen> but 2.4A/ph should be enough ^^
[12:02:56] <archivist> numen, no guessing or assumptions where replacement is concerned, if you use any old motor you may get a lot less torque and a stall
[12:04:02] <numen> archivist i mounted a 8cm diameter part on the axis of the motor, and its quiete hard to stop it with one hand, nearly not possible
[12:28:22] <alex_joni> numen: torque is not that hard to measure
[12:29:34] <alex_joni> http://www.scienceprog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007i/torquemeasure/measure_torque.PNG
[12:33:48] <alex_joni> you can use one of these: http://www.drillspot.com/pimages/1362/136215_300.jpg
[12:33:55] <alex_joni> the same one can be used on the axis too
[12:36:21] <skunkworks_> just got here - But I have measured stall torque with a simple torque wrench.
[12:40:21] <numen> alex_joni something like this, i dont have...
[12:41:24] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[12:42:10] <archivist> numen, bag of sugar
[12:48:10] <numen> just mounting a wire on the axis of the motor?
[12:48:26] <archivist> a disk and cotton/wire
[12:48:37] <archivist> rest is maths
[12:48:40] <numen> hmmm disk i dont have...
[12:48:58] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[12:49:01] <archivist> you said you had 8 cm earlier
[12:50:04] <numen> yes, but this i should not use for that ^^
[12:50:10] <archivist> have lathe, make something, last time I did it I used a cotton reel
[12:50:20] <numen> what a diameter should it have?
[12:50:55] <numen> but i could fix the axis of the motor and use the motor as a disk?
[12:50:59] <archivist> almost any as you can use maths to take it into account
[12:59:36] <_Poincare> _Poincare is now known as Poincare
[13:00:16] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[13:02:11] <numen> wight 610g distance to center 39mm
[13:03:18] <numen> how will i have to calculate?
[13:08:07] <numen> 0,24NM is that possible?
[13:08:53] <numen> or is that not enough?
[13:09:59] <clip9> Gah. I'm an idiot. I diden't relise that you could use "O<myfile> call" in MDI_COMMAND=
[13:10:15] <clip9> This may make thing a bit easier :P
[13:10:21] <clip9> *things
[13:28:07] <piasdom> is there a way to comment out two or three lines without using (P) on each line ?
[13:29:47] <numen> archivist is that enough?
[13:31:49] <ilya__> ilya__ is now known as roadrunne1
[13:32:14] <roadrunne1> roadrunne1 is now known as ilya_
[13:33:09] <ilya_> ilya_ is now known as ilya-
[13:33:19] <piasdom> (P) = parenthesis
[13:34:02] <ilya-> piasdom: '##English'?
[13:34:30] <SWPadnos> piasdom, in G-code?
[13:34:53] <piasdom> SWPadnos: yes sir
[13:35:25] <ilya-> that's are comments; also, ";" for the rest of the line
[13:35:32] <SWPadnos> you can put a slash (/) at the beginning instead, and make sure the "conditional execution" bit is off (I think there's an AXIS button for that now)
[13:35:52] <piasdom> SWPadnos: there is....thanks
[13:36:01] <SWPadnos> the onl yway I know to "comment" a greoup of lines is to turn it into a subroutine that you never call
[13:36:36] <SWPadnos> gah
[13:36:39] <SWPadnos> must have more coffee
[13:36:45] <piasdom> don't know how to creat a subroutine yet :)
[13:37:11] <SWPadnos> put this in front of the block: O<useless> SUB
[13:37:22] <SWPadnos> and this at the end: O<useless> ENDSUB
[13:37:32] <piasdom> ok...thanks again
[13:37:50] <SWPadnos> if you do that for more than one block in the same file, use different names for each one
[13:38:07] <piasdom> got ya
[13:39:00] <ilya-> SWPadnos: What can I do, if I save g-code as .txt from Windows? EMC2 always says "\357 symbol near line 2"
[13:40:02] <SWPadnos> you need to install the package "tofrodos", which has the program "dos2unix"
[13:40:09] <SWPadnos> run that on each file
[13:41:33] <cradek> I doubt that's the problem
[13:41:41] <piasdom> SWPadnos: do i use < > each time and change "useless" to what i want ?
[13:41:47] <cradek> \357 is not a line ending, it's some other dropping
[13:41:56] <SWPadnos> piasdom, yes, or use numbers and no < >
[13:42:02] <SWPadnos> hmmm. true
[13:42:07] <piasdom> SWPadnos: cool
[13:42:08] <cradek> whatever application you used in windows probably doesn't know to write plain files when you use a .txt extension
[13:42:38] <SWPadnos> yep. notepad or nothing on Windows
[13:42:48] <cradek> also, emc2 doesn't care one bit which line endings you use
[13:42:53] <ilya-> cradek: That's quite an obstruction...
[13:43:00] <cradek> ilya-: huh?
[13:43:10] <cradek> ilya-: what application did you use to write this file?
[13:43:11] <ilya-> Notepad?
[13:43:26] <piasdom> yea...i tried office(no good), wordpad and notepad worked for me
[13:44:19] <ilya-> FreeMill > copy to MS Word > OpenOffice.org in Ubuntu 8.04 > some_textual_file_with_g-code.txt
[13:44:28] <cradek> don't do that
[13:44:33] <cradek> don't use ms word or open office to edit gcode
[13:44:39] <cradek> those are word processors. they are NOT text editors
[13:44:46] <SWPadnos> why not just FreeMill > copy to EMC2 machine?
[13:44:56] <SWPadnos> you can then edit with gedit
[13:45:08] <SWPadnos> (Applications -> Accessories -> Text Editor)
[13:45:31] <ilya-> I will try to get employed soon... But all the information is mixed in my head... And my motorbike is disassembled to being modified... Ah poor ilya-...
[13:45:57] <ilya-> Can not even have a rest properly :).
[13:46:06] <SWPadnos> join the club
[13:52:04] <piasdom> SWPadnos: can you give me an example of using numbers...i tried and emc din't like
[13:52:12] <SWPadnos> O100 SUB
[13:52:15] <SWPadnos> O100 ENDSUB
[13:52:27] <SWPadnos> no <>
[13:52:30] <piasdom> i used 0 1 sub
[13:52:38] <SWPadnos> no spaces, I guess
[13:52:43] <SWPadnos> o1 sub
[13:52:45] <piasdom> ok thanks
[13:52:46] <SWPadnos> i1 endsub
[13:52:49] <SWPadnos> errr]
[13:52:52] <SWPadnos> o1 endsub
[13:53:05] <piasdom> hhahha...weeks almost over
[13:53:06] <SWPadnos> try that - it could be considered a bug (or a design feature - I
[13:53:10] <ilya-> SWPadnos: last time, I couldn't use parameters in O-calls, was it wrong, or it's normal?
[13:53:11] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure )
[13:53:21] <SWPadnos> that is not normal
[13:53:41] <SWPadnos> but you may need to put numbers inside []
[13:53:59] <BJT-Work> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//gcode_main.html#cha:O-Codes
[13:54:02] <SWPadnos> G-code ignores spaces, so O100 CALL 1 2 3 is actually O100 CALL 123
[13:54:48] <cradek> piasdom typed 0 1 sub. you need to use O 1 sub
[13:55:00] <SWPadnos> oh - good point
[13:55:16] <piasdom> cradek: oh not zero ?
[13:55:42] <ilya-> "SWPadnos: why not just FreeMill > copy to EMC2 machine?" FreeMill was at another computer in MS Windows XP. And I didn'r know text editors in Linux understand files for Windows.
[13:56:04] <SWPadnos> ok
[13:56:51] <SWPadnos> piasdom, yes, they're "oh codes" not "zero codes"
[13:57:05] <piasdom> thanks all
[14:01:59] <jepler_> jepler_ is now known as jepler
[14:03:41] <piasdom> ok...how do i use the subroutine ?
[14:04:30] <piasdom> never mind....i'll try reading :)
[14:06:37] <piasdom> this reading thing is interesting....thanks all
[14:07:13] <ilya-> I have remembered the problem... Those files from Windows had letters "H" and "a" in the g-code... "Only zeroes and ones... Once, I have seen even other numbers."
[14:15:16] <cradek> "H" and "a" are both valid in gcode files
[14:17:06] <ilya-> cradek: When computers says to the programmer: "Ha!" :)
[14:17:58] <ilya-> "Ha!" as in "Ha! Try it, but the machine isn't capable to do that."
[14:42:23] <ilya-> What happens when after "g96 d5000 s4" spindle's speed becomes "-2500" at that close to the spindle's axis range of X-coordinates?
[14:42:53] <ilya-> The machine seems to wait for "run" command and stops...
[15:08:31] <numen> re
[15:10:53] <geo01005> numen, I'm glad to hear that the filter works now.
[15:40:47] <ilya-> Am I right to think ZigZag tooling is for wood (because it tools all depth at once, usually if not always), and tooling with "Adaptive Roughing" is intended for metals, where many paths with small depth are needed.
[15:41:46] <ilya-> *?
[16:00:31] <fenn> something like that
[16:20:03] <piasdom> is it possible to make a "zero all axis" in axis like the mini has?
[16:20:52] <cradek> anything is possible, but touch off for all axes at the same time is not currently something AXIS does
[16:22:42] <cradek> I'd happily review a patch that adds that. I think the hard part would be cleanly adding it to the user interface.
[16:23:05] <ilya-> as a widget?
[16:23:09] <cradek> often, I want to offset X,Y and not Z
[16:23:25] <cradek> I think I almost never want to do all three at once, because I use different procedures for locating the point
[16:23:42] <ilya-> cradek: but it's possible to offset Z then, isn't it?
[16:24:01] <cradek> I'm trying to think of the use cases here
[16:24:12] <cradek> sure, I guess you could do all three, then do Z separately again
[16:24:15] <ilya-> So it probably isn't needed
[16:24:17] <cradek> but ... ick
[16:24:26] <cradek> which isn't?
[16:24:44] <ilya-> cradek: "touch off" = new coordinate system, right?
[16:25:12] <cradek> um no, it moves the requested coordinate system
[16:25:18] <cradek> or, sets a tool length
[16:25:24] <ilya-> this idea of touching off all the axes at once, it isn't probably needed for a workflow
[16:26:00] <cradek> I don't often want that, but nevertheless that's what piasdom asked about
[16:26:16] <piasdom> i'm trying not to have to home each axis to start...tthe new emc2 won't let you do anything til all are zeroer(which i like)
[16:26:16] <ilya-> moves coordinate system, e.g. on a length of previous detail, and it's possible to run program again and tool another detail?
[16:26:32] <cradek> piasdom: oh do you mean HOME ALL?
[16:26:40] <ilya-> "new" EMC2?
[16:27:01] <ilya-> version 2.3.1 isn't new?
[16:27:06] <piasdom> oop...ya'll call it home :)
[16:27:12] <piasdom> new to me :)
[16:27:18] <cradek> AXIS has home all. you can even have them do it in a certain order, see the docs for how to set it up
[16:27:37] <piasdom> cradek: thanks
[16:27:41] <cradek> this is why I should have asked you what you were wanting to do
[16:27:49] <cradek> the whole discussion was about something else
[16:27:56] <piasdom> oh :)
[16:28:25] <Jymm> cradek: dont ya hate when that happens
[16:29:24] <cradek> yeah, often questions aren't quite precise enough, and I tend to guess instead of asking for clarification - it's a bad habit
[16:30:30] <cradek> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/config_ini_homing.html#HOME%20SEQUENCE
[16:30:41] <cradek> ugh, this page is a mess
[16:31:01] <ilya-> Does MINI offers a 3D backplot?
[16:31:19] <fenn> you can't zoom and rotate after the fact, but yes
[16:31:22] <cradek> it has sections "Homing Sequence" and HOME_SEQUENCE, talking about totally different things, and the image is in the wrong one
[16:31:49] <Jymm> cradek: When the conversain goes "whaaaa?" I usually drop to "What are you attempting to accomlish?" and that usually dials it in .
[16:32:16] <cradek> piasdom: what you want to set up is HOME_SEQUENCE for your axes, and then AXIS will let you home them in any sequence (one of which can be all simultaneously)
[16:32:37] <cradek> Jymm: I agree that's exactly the right question
[16:32:43] <ilya-> cradek: and in the build documentation, that page corresponds to ...?
[16:33:12] <cradek> Jymm: it changes the question from "is there this solution I've already decided on" to "this is my problem and I'm looking for the best solution"
[16:33:35] <cradek> Jymm: the first question is often the wrong question to ask, but the first one asked
[16:34:21] <ilya-> "Homing Configuration"
[16:34:25] <Jymm> cradek: Heh, true.
[16:35:18] <piasdom> i have axis 2.3.3...so if i click "Home Axis",it'll do all if i choose ?
[16:35:43] <cradek> piasdom: one you have set up the homing sequence you want, that button will change to "Home All"
[16:35:54] <ilya-> piasdom: "Home All" usually works, if works at all, this way.
[16:35:54] <piasdom> .....in the ini file
[16:36:03] <cradek> right
[16:36:16] <piasdom> cradek: thanks
[16:36:19] <piasdom> thanks all
[16:36:25] <cradek> if you want them to all home together, you set HOME_SEQUENCE=0 in every axis section
[16:36:36] <ilya-> piasdom: to home all to another place, you may want to do what cradek says
[16:36:46] <cradek> on my mill, I want Z to go up first, so Z is HOME_SEQUENCE=0 and the rest are =1
[16:36:51] <ilya-> (piasdom: I once asked the same)
[16:37:12] <piasdom> cradek: but then i won't be able to home one axis at a time ?
[16:37:20] <ilya-> cradek: can HOME_SEQUENCE=0,1,2,... ?
[16:37:22] <piasdom> ilya :) thanks :)
[16:37:23] <cradek> you can always home or unhome one axis at a time using the menu
[16:37:26] <probotix> are any of you familiar with a kernel bug on 8.04 that requires you to disable onboard lan?
[16:38:13] <piasdom> thanks
[16:38:17] <ilya-> probotix: "#ubuntu"
[16:39:01] <ilya-> probotix: and bugs on launchpad, but I don't know how to do that
[16:39:08] <probotix> sure - but I am wondering if I apply the updated packages, will it break RTAI
[16:39:33] <cradek> probotix: an ubuntu update will not change your realtime kernel
[16:40:08] <ilya-> probotix: I was told to use precompiled RTAI-kernel
[16:40:14] <probotix> specifically - it is these two:
[16:40:26] <probotix> linux-headers-2.6.24-18_2.6.24-18.32ubuntu6_all.deb
[16:40:31] <probotix> linux-image-2.6.24-18-generic_2.6.24-18.32ubuntu6_i386.deb
[16:40:52] <cradek> if you are running the linuxcnc rtai kernel, those packages will have no effect
[16:41:50] <probotix> no affect, as in the bug will still be there?
[16:42:10] <cradek> if it's in the linuxcnc rtai kernel, which these packages do not change, yes
[16:42:40] <piasdom> so in the traj section where it has home 0 0 0 - i change to home 3 2 1 ?
[16:43:01] <cradek> piasdom: no
[16:43:41] <cradek> again: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/config_ini_homing.html#HOME%20SEQUENCE
[16:44:05] <piasdom> ok
[16:44:51] <cradek> just ignore the stupid "There are six pieces of information" followed by nine things :-/
[16:45:23] <probotix> cradek: so does that mean that the problem isn't in the kernel afterall?
[16:45:53] <cradek> probotix: I don't know anything about the problem, but nothing you have said has made me believe that it's not in the kernel
[16:46:01] <SWPadnos> probotix, no, it means that the RTAI kernel package is not the same as the "regular" kernel package, so updating the regular kernel package will have no effect on the installed RTAI kernel
[16:46:20] <cradek> if you found a ubuntu kernel update that is said to fix it, then it's definitely in the kernel
[16:46:49] <SWPadnos> ... and will still be in the RTAI kernel, regardless of whether the stock kernel is updated with the fix
[16:47:22] <probotix> okay then - who could I beg to get this fixed in the RTAI kernel?
[16:47:26] <probotix> ;)
[16:47:49] <ilya-> probotix: some rare onboard LAN probably works good in MS Windows only...
[16:47:52] <SWPadnos> it could (but may not) help to actually provide information about the bug and its remedy
[16:48:26] <SWPadnos> I have never had to disable an onboard LAN to get 8.04 to work, and I ahve installed it on at least a dozen machines
[16:48:37] <probotix> i build lots of machines using mini-itx mobos and it is driving me crazy
[16:48:39] <probotix> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/225749
[16:50:14] <Jymm> probotix: Yur running emc on a laptop?
[16:50:17] <Jymm> your
[16:50:23] <probotix> no
[16:50:49] <probotix> mini-itx
[16:51:04] <probotix> 6.06 works like a champ everytime
[16:51:20] <probotix> but sheetcam will not run on 6.06
[16:51:45] <probotix> gcc on 6.06 is not new enough
[16:52:21] <ilya-> Jymm: laptop + RTAI = turned off LAN at boot (or I muddle something up)
[16:52:48] <ilya-> It said something about LAN at boot...
[16:53:07] <cradek> if you're not controlling a mill with it, you could use emc2-sim and the regular ubuntu kernel
[16:53:22] <ilya-> probotix: can't you compile binutils or something?
[16:53:36] <Jymm> You could just disab;e LAN in bios
[16:53:39] <cradek> I'm puzzled by sheetcam (closed source) cares about gcc
[16:54:52] <ilya-> Jymm: if LAN and USB are disabled, I can only imagine what you answer to me
[16:56:47] <Jymm> That link about 2/3rds's down gives step-by-step directions to fix this issue.
[16:57:14] <probotix> no, its only lan causing the issue - the driver is will recognize realtek rtl8101, but not rtl8102
[16:58:01] <Jymm> So, disable the onboard LAN in BIOS and shove in a real nic.
[16:58:12] <ilya-> And is it a critical error?
[16:58:19] <Jymm> KISS
[16:58:21] <probotix> no room in the case for a real nic
[16:58:37] <ilya-> kiss?
[16:58:39] <Jymm> no room?! What only 2 slots?
[16:58:52] <SWPadnos> mini ITX - only one slot
[16:58:52] <ilya-> * ilya- kisses his laptop
[16:59:07] <Jymm> ok, then get a real system
[16:59:28] <Jymm> SWPadnos: is this the same as that system on newegg with the svideo?
[16:59:31] <probotix> but its otherwise a great little machine
[16:59:32] <probotix> http://www.jetwaycomputer.com/ITX_Barebone.html
[16:59:53] <Jymm> oh gawd jetway. Well I'm done.
[17:01:19] <piasdom> ok...i need to ask the right question :)i'm trying to zero the axis...not move them to anywhere(setting up on my part)
[17:01:31] <Jymm> jetway is like 1 or 2 steps better than emachines imo
[17:02:29] <Jymm> piasdom: So, do it!
[17:02:56] <piasdom> Jymm: ok thanks
[17:03:38] <probotix> my point is that the issue is tied to the kernel and a very common chipset, I would fix it myself, but I don't even know where to start
[17:09:16] <ilya-> probotix: can you compile RTAI kernel yourself? (Or new one, from ubuntu9.04?)
[17:13:37] <ilya-> OK, I should read the documentation with an interest.
[17:14:15] <Jymm> cradek: Hmmmm, what's the url for axis docs? (can't seem to find anything online)
[17:18:34] <probotix> i could compile a new kernel, but I wouldn't know how to build the iso
[17:19:51] <probotix> who maintains that part of emc (building the ISOs)?
[17:21:12] <Jymm> piasdom: Ok, I was being a premature smartass, Zero Coordinate System I believe is what you are looking for,
[17:22:10] <Jymm> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?action=browse&id=CoordinateSystems&revision=8
[17:25:01] <SWPadnos> touch-off
[17:25:16] <Jymm> cradek: jepler: How open are you guys to having AXIS' code rearranged to help make it more modular/customizable?
[17:25:22] <SWPadnos> or zero, which is a special case of touch-off that sets the coordinate(s) to zero
[17:25:46] <SWPadnos> Jymm, it's in process (somewhat)
[17:26:01] <Jymm> SWPadnos: I see the gcode for touchoff, but not the AXIS controls for it
[17:26:04] <Jymm> in the docs
[17:26:07] <SWPadnos> as long as there's a good plan for how to split it up, patches would be happily reviewed
[17:26:28] <SWPadnos> well, that may be because AXIS is partly python and partly Tcl
[17:26:51] <SWPadnos> so the UI controls are in the Tcl part (I think)
[17:26:59] <piasdom> when i click touchoff,it brings up offset P1 G54
[17:27:06] <SWPadnos> (though I could be wrong. my eyes usually cross when I look at it :) )
[17:28:08] <Jymm> SWPadnos: Well, here's the thing... I would be willng to supply such things, BUT... I dont want to go thru the code analysis to figure what/where everything is, submit a crap load of stuff, then hear "um, no thanks". (technical issues aside)
[17:30:04] <Jymm> SWPadnos: For example... I dont care for the dynamic menus, I'd much prefer dimmed options instead, then I can at least see WHERE somethng is located and know that it's dimmed because I'm not in the proper mode to acces that option.
[17:32:17] <Jymm> SWPadnos: On the flip side.... AXIS has always been cradek and jepler's baby, and I can appreciate that feeling when someone else goes and disects it, there's that eery feeling.
[17:33:15] <alex_joni> Jymm: I think jepler is working on rearranging the AXIS code
[17:34:34] <Jymm> alex_joni: Ok, I'll hit the shadows again with this. I brought it about a ear agoa or so I think.
[17:34:44] <Jymm> year
[17:37:21] <Jymm> * Jymm waits for _jane_ and _cheeta_ to arrive.
[17:39:34] <alex_joni> cheetah :)
[17:43:52] <motioncontrol> good evening at all
[17:51:58] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[18:10:44] <SWPadnos> Jymm, sorry for the delay
[18:11:06] <SWPadnos> certain things, like your menu type preference, are probably left alone
[18:11:20] <SWPadnos> unless you can point out clear reasons why your way is better
[18:12:03] <SWPadnos> but other things (not that I can think of examples at this point) may be good candidates for changes
[18:12:19] <SWPadnos> don't hesitate to make suggestions, especially if you're willing to implement them :)
[18:12:59] <SWPadnos> but also please don't take it the wrong way if the response is something along the lines of "well, that's one way, we do it a different way and there's no compelling reason to change it"
[18:15:22] <jepler> AXIS is still never intended to be a user-reconfigurable user interface. The ongoing work is making it easier (i.e., under 500 lines) to incorporate AXIS's preview and live plot in other python programs, including in pygtk programs.
[18:18:09] <jepler> with that plus the long-existing python interface to emc, any hotshot programmer should be able to write a program better than AXIS in an afternoon
[18:18:23] <cradek> haha
[18:18:58] <anonimasu> yeah... like the people writing their own better traj planner..
[18:19:11] <anonimasu> because it's easy to run on on a arm platform..
[18:19:12] <anonimasu> :]
[18:31:45] <archivist_attic> and pigs might fly
[18:35:02] <archivist_attic> I have seen a pig fly at a Pink Floyd concert :)
[18:44:42] <mikegg_> me too!
[18:44:55] <mikegg_> atlanta, must have been early 90's
[18:45:23] <mikegg_> i think they had two actually
[18:47:27] <archivist_attic> I was at Stafford in thr UK
[19:09:49] <probotix> that pig is worth $10K: http://www.reuters.com/article/musicNews/idUSN2934219420080430
[19:11:15] <archivist_attic> aw shredded pig
[19:12:47] <ilya__> Musical CNC machine?
[19:13:15] <archivist_attic> EMC does daisy.ngc
[19:14:29] <ilya__> archivist_attic: that man who has created that file, he's the Lord of programming!
[19:15:08] <archivist_attic> only has 4 voices /me wants 5
[19:18:49] <ilya__> (Perfect female slaves on grape plantations had to sing to show they don't eat but actually work.)
[19:23:45] <ilya__> Why doesn't ~/configs/sim/axis_mm.ini reduce the CPU load when I hide the program's window to the taskbar?
[19:26:50] <ilya__> I'm not sure, but it seems fglrx reduces it for about 300 or 400MHz or so.
[19:28:46] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[19:34:18] <ilya__> Or why those installation-to-Ubuntu-Linux scripts offer to install fglrx? We, users of EMC2, should know what does stay behind the silence of the developers! (The Leader of the Eastern Coalition of EMC2's users (ECEMC2).:)
[19:51:47] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[19:54:42] <ilya__> Use irc.ubuntu.com to avoid netsplit.
[20:40:51] <ilya__> Again, am I right to understand EMC2 have no any use of those linux-rt-... and corresponding debian packages providing (what actually then?) Real-Time Abstraction Level?
[20:46:15] <fenn> ilya__: the linux-rt-* kernels are not hard realtime, they are mainly for audio/video stuff
[20:49:48] <ilya__> oh, like at www.ubuntustudio.org which introduces, then avoids such kernels from time to time? One Ubuntustudio with such a kernel couldn't have installed to a laptop with Atlon XP processor...
[21:01:23] <ilya__> fenn: Can compiled kernel with RTAI be somehow modified for the use of USB ports?
[21:01:52] <clip9> huh. usb ports work fine with rtai
[21:02:05] <ilya__> no
[21:02:34] <clip9> Linux tj-emc 2.6.24-16-rtai
[21:02:43] <clip9> I use 3 usb prts
[21:02:46] <ilya__> Or my laptop in RTAI doesn't support USB ports and I think so.
[21:02:52] <clip9> Mouse, keyboard joystick
[21:03:09] <ilya__> tj-emc 2.6.24 ?
[21:03:24] <clip9> thats just the hostname.
[21:04:08] <archivist> ive used a usb webcam while machining
[21:04:08] <ilya__> And version 2.3.1 of EMC2, should the CD with this version support USB ports?
[21:04:17] <ilya__> omg
[21:04:22] <frallzor2> yes....
[21:04:35] <ilya__> I thought it's normal.
[21:05:08] <cradek> usb works fine
[21:05:15] <ilya__> Mama!
[21:05:23] <clip9> webcam..
[21:05:24] <ilya__> Mamma mia!
[21:05:30] <clip9> thats actaully a very good idea.
[21:05:47] <frallzor2> indeed
[21:06:03] <archivist> clip9, was an experiment in tool position
[21:06:26] <archivist> I learnt some and need to do more
[21:06:27] <clip9> do you use vlc for encoding and serving?
[21:06:52] <archivist> what is this vlc
[21:07:36] <clip9> Well if you want to watch the webcam stream on another pc you may need to encode it in a format suitable for streaming? vlc can do that.
[21:08:19] <archivist> nah just wanted the bitmap for measurement
[21:09:04] <clip9> ok
[21:09:53] <archivist> for a short time I also chucked the image on the web
[21:10:19] <ilya__> for cnc-junkies?
[21:10:40] <clip9> I just want to keep an eye onb my mill without being in the cellar :P
[21:11:16] <ilya__> Your machine is in the cellar? What do you produce with it?
[21:11:33] <clip9> Mostly wood signs.
[21:11:36] <ilya__> Hobby or hobby-for-money stuff?
[21:11:42] <clip9> Both :P
[21:12:00] <ilya__> clip9: we have many firms producing wood doors and everything last time...
[21:14:03] <ilya__> Am I right to say cnc machines were of the same price in USD ten years ago, say?
[21:14:29] <clip9> I don't know. But I think thay cheaper now.
[21:14:49] <clip9> they are*
[21:16:59] <ilya__> uh... It's funny, ten years ago it seemed so unusual...
[21:25:29] <ilya__> clip9: which feed rates for wood do you use?
[21:28:10] <ilya__> e.g. 3 mm drill, depth 50 mm?
[21:30:25] <clip9> Depends on the wood but usually over 5000mm/min
[21:32:53] <mikegg_> if anyone is shopping for a new phone
[21:32:55] <mikegg_> http://dealnews.com/Unlocked-Nokia-E71-Smartphone-for-162-free-shipping/316195.html
[21:32:59] <mikegg_> this one is the tits
[21:33:11] <mikegg_> i bought mine for $300 like 2 months ago
[21:42:04] <ilya__> So, Sherline's Handwheel have encoders for indexing? But the spindle's encoder isn't the same?
[22:37:47] <Jymm> SWPadnos: http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/147906
[23:38:05] <alex_joni> good night all