#emc | Logs for 2009-08-13

[00:30:07] <tomaw> [Global Notice] In memory of a recently deceased good friend: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-787855-start-0-postdays-0-postorder-asc-highlight-.html
[08:53:24] <Valen1> Valen1 is now known as Valen
[09:22:22] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[10:38:31] <archivist> machined swarf http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/djcpd/PD/2009/2009_08_13/verge/P1010320.JPG
[10:38:47] <archivist> 2.8mm od
[10:40:43] <pjm> morning!
[10:41:23] <pjm> wow they are damn small parts, what are they for?
[10:42:04] <archivist> watch escapement
[10:42:10] <pjm> amazing
[10:42:30] <archivist> one needed the reast are one original and ....practice
[10:43:06] <archivist> at that scale one needs to perfect the process
[10:43:19] <archivist> or nery snuff
[10:43:31] <pjm> ah btw, i dont spose u know where i can get some of these rubber bellow type things that u could use for a swarf guard over slideways etc
[10:43:53] <archivist> there is a one off maker in the uk
[10:44:14] <archivist> I need them as well, have brochure
[10:44:22] <pjm> i thought about getting some of that accordian type rubber stuff and making it fit ;-)
[10:44:44] <archivist> they fold it to order
[10:44:58] <pjm> ah right interesting
[10:45:31] <archivist> now you want me to remember where my copy of the brochure is
[10:46:09] <pjm> hahh well perhaps next time u see it, ping me here
[10:46:27] <pjm> my machine doesnt have guards at the moment, but i want to fit them before the end of the year
[10:47:14] <Valen> somebody has a how to out ther on how to make propper bellows type stuff
[10:47:21] <Valen> out of plastic type material
[10:47:42] <archivist> heat and one of two possible folds
[10:47:51] <pjm> ahh ok thanks Valen i'll have a google on making it
[10:48:07] <Valen> The one I saw the guy did it by scoring and folding
[10:48:22] <archivist> camera bellows have the same fold
[10:48:26] <Valen> they used a patent somebody did on "the optimal bellows folding pattern" or somesuch
[10:48:47] <Valen> somebody did a whole bunch of maths to prove this paticular one was the "best"
[10:49:02] <Valen> guy even had a (windows) template generator for it
[10:49:06] <archivist> and oddly the older fold for cameras is used in machine tool
[10:50:06] <Valen> http://www.franksworkshop.com.au/CNC/Bellows/Bellows.htm
[10:50:10] <Valen> this is the one
[10:51:00] <pjm> ah thanks !
[10:52:39] <Valen> clear is so funky for it ;->
[10:56:06] <archivist> when I looked at the model engineer show in Harogate, costs were too high and sheet sizes seemed too small
[11:41:18] <maximilian_h> Is somebody there who knows his way around axis ?
[11:41:42] <archivist> ask the real question
[11:42:29] <maximilian_h> I am trying to convert a machine with multiple spindles in this one machine and this breaks the live plotter preview
[11:42:46] <maximilian_h> some i am trying to surpress a g0 move from showing
[11:42:55] <alex_joni> (AXIS, hide)
[11:42:58] <alex_joni> (AXIS, show)
[11:43:01] <alex_joni> in the g-code
[11:43:13] <alex_joni> everything between hide and show won't be displayed
[11:43:17] <maximilian_h> but the comment (AXIS,hide) or (AXIS,show) do not help, because the position is still updated
[11:43:43] <alex_joni> it's not updated by AXIS
[11:43:47] <maximilian_h> yes, it does not get displayed, but the position still get's updated
[11:43:50] <alex_joni> the position is updated by emc2
[11:44:51] <maximilian_h> are you aware of some way that i can change the current behaviour so that this display does not show the position change ?
[11:45:09] <alex_joni> can you describe what the g0 does?
[11:46:30] <maximilian_h> this i quite some old machine, it has 5 spindles with different tools in each one. All tools are used, there is no tool changer. The offset from one tool/spindle to the next is 100mm. Of course this setup looks horrible on the live plotter
[11:47:01] <maximilian_h> so i am trying to surpress the display of the g0 moves that move from one tool to the next
[11:55:16] <maximilian_h> Alex ? Are you still there ?
[12:23:02] <alex_joni> maximilian_h: sorry, war grade nicht am PC ;)
[12:24:16] <maximilian_h> kein Problem
[12:24:25] <maximilian_h> How come you speak German ?
[12:24:41] <alex_joni> * alex_joni learned it ;)
[12:25:14] <maximilian_h> Is it work the effort ? We seem to all speak English well enough ;)
[12:25:16] <alex_joni> I'm not sure you can do that
[12:25:33] <maximilian_h> I was afraid you'd say that :(
[12:25:38] <alex_joni> keep the G0 from not beeing displayed/updated
[12:25:43] <alex_joni> but there are other things you can do
[12:26:01] <alex_joni> how is the G0 done?
[12:26:01] <alex_joni> only in one direction?
[12:26:08] <maximilian_h> what ? I am grateful for any ideas
[12:26:09] <alex_joni> you could make the toolchange apply the offset to the current position
[12:26:20] <alex_joni> this would be done only in HAL, as a hack
[12:26:46] <alex_joni> when you select tool 2, it will add an offset to the current Z position (both comand and feedback, so emc2 still thinks it's in the same spot)
[12:26:56] <maximilian_h> the offset won't help ( I think ) i already tried using the different coordinate systems G54, G55 etc
[12:26:58] <alex_joni> but the stepgen that actually drives the motor will be moved by the offset
[12:27:04] <alex_joni> not an offset in g-code
[12:27:14] <alex_joni> say you have the current Z position at 100
[12:27:20] <alex_joni> for Tool 3 you need 200
[12:27:34] <alex_joni> emc2 thinks it's at 100, but you add 100mm in HAL before the stepgen
[12:27:42] <maximilian_h> i only need the change in x and y ? The z is this machine is just tool on/off
[12:27:49] <alex_joni> X & Y then
[12:27:53] <maximilian_h> using servos, not stepgen
[12:27:59] <alex_joni> doesn't matter
[12:28:03] <maximilian_h> good
[12:28:32] <maximilian_h> so how do i configure that ?
[12:28:41] <alex_joni> first you need to read and get acustomed to HAL
[12:29:13] <alex_joni> but basicly it works like this
[12:29:17] <alex_joni> logger_emc: bookmark
[12:29:17] <alex_joni> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2009-08-13.txt
[12:29:24] <alex_joni> (you can reread it later this way ;)
[12:29:37] <alex_joni> the output from emc2 comes from the motion controller
[12:29:47] <alex_joni> axis.*.motor-pos-cmd (or similar)
[12:29:49] <alex_joni> that goes to PID
[12:29:55] <alex_joni> from there to your servo
[12:29:58] <maximilian_h> yes, ok until here
[12:30:07] <alex_joni> from your encoder it comes back to your hardware for counting
[12:30:13] <maximilian_h> Iok on that
[12:30:23] <alex_joni> and it gets scaled, and linked to axis.*.motor-pos-fb
[12:30:39] <maximilian_h> ok, i do have it like this in my hal config
[12:30:44] <alex_joni> you need to add an component between axis.*.motor-pos-cmd and pid
[12:30:52] <alex_joni> sum2 or something like that
[12:30:59] <alex_joni> so you can add the offset you like
[12:31:12] <alex_joni> if you add 0, then it sits at the position emc2 thinks
[12:31:25] <alex_joni> if you add an non-zero offset, the motor should move to emc2 + offset
[12:31:36] <alex_joni> but you need to add the same offset for the feedback
[12:31:54] <alex_joni> (else emc2 sees the motor is not where it should be)
[12:32:00] <maximilian_h> yes, or the pid would go nuts
[12:32:03] <alex_joni> gotta run.. hopefully someone else will pick up from here
[12:32:19] <alex_joni> you';ll need a mux, which you use based on the selected tool
[12:32:32] <alex_joni> and some more HAL conenctions based on tool-prepare and tool-change
[12:32:35] <maximilian_h> thanks, i'll try your idea immediately
[12:32:56] <alex_joni> tool-change to select the mux (which outputs the offsets) which get added to the position, and substracted from feedback
[12:33:07] <alex_joni> if you only do it like this you'll have a jump in position
[12:33:12] <alex_joni> and PID will move at max vel/acc
[12:33:28] <alex_joni> maybe you want an additional limit2,3 component after the mux to limit the velocity needed
[12:33:32] <alex_joni> now I'm really gone
[12:33:33] <alex_joni> bye
[12:33:38] <maximilian_h> thanks a lot
[12:34:16] <micges_work> for offseting position you want to use component offset
[12:34:51] <maximilian_h> is this is a comp component ?
[12:34:56] <micges_work> yes
[12:35:17] <maximilian_h> wait let me have a look at its doc
[12:35:41] <micges_work> it offsets command and feedback position at once
[12:37:04] <maximilian_h> Do you happen to have an example ?
[12:37:43] <micges_work> yes
[12:38:09] <maximilian_h> could you please share it with me or give me a pointer as where to look ?
[12:38:45] <micges_work> yes moment
[12:41:47] <micges_work> http://www.pastebin.ca/1527969
[12:44:55] <maximilian_h> An then i could set offset.0.offset from your example with halcmd in a custom M command
[12:45:14] <micges_work> yes
[12:46:10] <maximilian_h> thanks a 1000 times ! :) I'll try that out immediately.
[12:46:13] <maximilian_h> Bye
[12:46:32] <SWPadnos> you can also alias the pin name instead of using a signal
[12:46:45] <SWPadnos> alias offset.0.offset offsetX
[12:47:00] <SWPadnos> then you use setp instead of sets
[12:47:39] <maximilian_h> Oh good, i was not aware of having the feature to alias in hal
[12:47:49] <SWPadnos> it's relatively new
[12:48:11] <maximilian_h> great
[12:48:19] <SWPadnos> then again, it could go away, but signals will always remain :)
[12:49:15] <maximilian_h> If it works now that i am having a productive day
[12:49:30] <maximilian_h> s/that/then/
[12:49:43] <SWPadnos> excellent
[12:49:45] <maximilian_h> ok bye. And thanks again
[14:40:13] <skunkworks_> this is a neat idea.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5jGBE-Xcg4&feature=channel
[14:45:37] <skunkworks_> seems like a simple matter of kins ;)
[15:22:48] <Valen1> Valen1 is now known as Valen
[15:25:31] <mikegg> just made my first EMC2 cuts!
[15:25:40] <pjm> yay congrats!
[15:25:42] <mikegg> sweet
[15:26:15] <pjm> what machine u using, a conversion or something home made?
[15:26:54] <mikegg> home made. well, company made I should say
[15:28:14] <pjm> ah cool none the less
[15:28:37] <pjm> u should write it up and put it on the wiki to give inspiration to others!
[15:28:59] <mikegg> I would love to post some video/pics
[15:29:27] <mikegg> but the fact that we are developing a machine tool is still kind of sensitive
[15:29:56] <mikegg> sucks :(
[15:47:31] <steves_logging> steves_logging is now known as steve_stallings
[15:47:36] <jepler> hi steve_stallings
[16:01:25] <steve_stallings> hi Jeff, see response in devel
[16:15:26] <mikegg> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQSTX2Kqkw8
[16:15:37] <mikegg> here's a quick one from my phone
[16:16:02] <archivist> short but sweet
[16:16:31] <mikegg> that spindle is bitchin
[16:16:37] <mikegg> 150K RPM
[16:20:10] <skunkworks_> wow
[16:20:20] <skunkworks_> screaming
[16:21:03] <archivist> Ive only seen 60k spindles hissing
[16:28:30] <skunkworks_> * skunkworks_ thinks about milling circuit boards at 100ipm :)
[17:11:56] <Valen1> Valen1 is now known as Valen
[17:12:49] <Valen> we are getting closer to first motion
[17:12:56] <Valen> probably in a week or two
[17:18:11] <good_kid> Which file in the source contains definitions of the kinematics? I just want to be more friendly with the program.
[17:31:14] <jepler> good_kid: trivkins.c and others in src/emc/kinematics
[17:32:57] <good_kid> thanks. I'm actually good at theoretical mechanics and in kinematics (because of the university).
[17:40:06] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[17:52:24] <good_kid> need to restart
[17:57:25] <motioncontrol> good evening.I have install the live cd 8.04 and emc2 on dell pc with dual celeron at 2ghz. i have problem with rtai.The message when emc2 start is rtai exceted time.For clear the problem i have upper time base at 150000. i use the servo axis on mesa card. this time is good for servo?
[17:59:18] <seb_kuzminsky> motioncontrol: 150,000 ns is a very short time for the servo thread, i think the current default is 1,000,000 ns (1 ms)
[18:17:03] <mikegg> arg. how do I tie M03/M05 to hm2_5i20.0.gpio.047.out ?
[18:17:33] <mikegg> it's not "net motion.spindle-on => hm2_5i20.0.gpio.047.out
[18:18:08] <seb_kuzminsky> mikegg: is hm2_5i20.0.gpio.047.is_output true?
[18:18:15] <mikegg> yes
[18:19:56] <seb_kuzminsky> isnt the first argument to "net" the name of the signal? so shouldnt it be something like "net spindle-is-on motion.spindle-on => hm2_5i20.0.gpio.047.out"
[18:20:38] <BJT-Work> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//hal_basic_hal.html
[18:22:00] <seb_kuzminsky> BJT-Work: i misread your nick at a glance and thought it said Bjork ;-)
[18:22:12] <BJT-Work> LOL
[18:46:15] <archivist_attic> I hope BJT-Work can sing better than the other one
[18:46:45] <BJT-Work> I can't carry a tune in a bucket
[18:49:19] <BJT-Work> but I think I've been called a jork before :)
[18:49:28] <seb_kuzminsky> haha
[19:20:02] <frallzor> anyone know of a nice site of software thatll help you figure out speed and proper feed for a certain material and tool?
[19:20:07] <frallzor> *or
[19:31:29] <robh_> frallzor, titex used to do a very nice free bit of software, put in cutter type material or just material and it would tell u cutter type to use, feed rpm etc etc dont know if they still do one
[19:33:22] <frallzor> want to guess on 300mm/min, acrylic and 6mm endmill? =)
[19:33:26] <frallzor> what speed to use?
[19:33:47] <frallzor> on the spindle that is
[19:37:43] <robh_> u cuting bits out of a sheet? or other
[19:38:07] <frallzor> 10mm sheet im cutting out from
[19:39:02] <frallzor> so yes, bits from a sheet
[19:59:14] <robh_> sorry had to pop out side, try few thos 2500rpm high feed 400mm or higher, realy depends on kinda of acrylic, cutter (carbide, HSS) machine too, plastic wanna tend to keep rpm low, feedup abit to stop it sticking and melting
[20:00:40] <frallzor> ill try
[20:00:58] <frallzor> played with my new kress too, those low 10000rpm was no good :P
[20:04:14] <robh_> kress?
[20:06:03] <frallzor> spindle
[20:06:30] <frallzor> http://www.badog.biz/catalog/images/1050.jpg kress =)
[20:20:39] <robh_> didt fancy trying one of them chinise spindles u see on ebay then, 22krpm with VFD
[21:27:21] <Guest993> Hello
[21:27:48] <Guest993> need help on changing my x axis direction
[21:27:56] <pjm> hi
[21:28:06] <Guest993> in emc2
[21:28:15] <pjm> stepper motor system?
[21:28:23] <Guest993> yeah, sorry
[21:28:32] <pjm> ok so u can just invert the 'direction' pin
[21:28:33] <Guest993> g540
[21:28:50] <Guest993> in emc2 ?
[21:29:36] <pjm> yeah in the hal
[21:29:45] <Guest993> file ?
[21:30:08] <pjm> so for my setup for example i have;
[21:30:09] <frallzor> the wizard works nice too =)
[21:30:09] <pjm> setp parport.0.pin-07-out-invert 1
[21:30:09] <pjm> net zdir => parport.0.pin-07-out
[21:30:32] <Guest993> you can do it from wizard ?
[21:30:47] <frallzor> the dir yes
[21:31:01] <frallzor> simple invert-box you check =)
[21:31:14] <Guest993> Sweet, Thank you :)
[21:31:33] <frallzor> just load the right config and you are all set
[21:32:13] <Guest993> yeah, i have a x2 mill and it outputs a mirror image
[21:32:13] <pjm> Guest993 the other alternative is to swap the phases of the stepper motor around
[21:33:00] <Guest993> and i got to change X axis :)
[21:34:20] <Guest993> so just to ask how/ you wire bi-polor would i change A# and A
[21:34:24] <pjm> well its easy in either h/w or software
[21:34:34] <Guest993> just to know
[21:34:38] <Guest993> hardware
[21:34:41] <pjm> u get the 2 A wires and swap them with the 2 B wires
[21:35:36] <Guest993> so like A# = B# and A = B ?
[21:36:25] <Guest993> just don't want to burn anything out :)
[21:38:37] <pjm> Guest993 yep that is right wiht the wiring
[21:39:19] <Guest993> Thank you very much sir :)
[21:40:40] <pjm> no problem!
[21:40:46] <pjm> just swap over the AA and BB
[21:41:36] <Guest993> will do
[21:42:07] <Guest993> emc2 is the Bomb :)
[21:42:11] <pjm> worth just metering out each coil and clearly marking the wires before u mod anything
[21:42:21] <pjm> or u can just invert the pin in the hal file
[21:42:38] <archivist> or stepconf
[21:42:59] <Guest993> I will do in the hal / stepconfig
[21:43:05] <pjm> ah yes i'm assuming he has tweaked the config!
[21:43:32] <pjm> if u made your config with stepconfig and have not manually edited the resulting files, u can do the tweaks with stepconf
[21:44:18] <Guest993> i saw just didn't know i inverted all
[21:44:22] <Guest993> axis
[21:44:35] <Guest993> and it did the last night
[21:44:43] <Guest993> did not know :(
[21:44:56] <Guest993> i do now :)
[21:45:40] <Guest993> what kind of cnc do you run (pjm)
[21:45:55] <pjm> well it really is worth getting to grips with emc2, it is absolutly wicked
[21:46:23] <pjm> this is my machine http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Pjm
[21:46:29] <Guest993> yeah i love the layout
[21:46:31] <archivist> being able to home brew a 5axis is nice
[21:46:39] <pjm> its a home built thing that i generally use to make microwave radio parts
[21:46:54] <Guest993> very nice i have a g540 4axis
[21:47:14] <Guest993> x2 mill cnc fusion conversion
[21:47:16] <Guest993> :)
[21:48:11] <Guest993> that is nice
[21:48:18] <Guest993> (pjm)
[21:48:43] <pjm> well yeah its not bad, i'm still fiddling with the setup of it, probably gonna upgrade the controller with a mesa 7i43 card
[21:49:07] <pjm> which will finally be able to read my spindle encoder when running at 6K rpm ++
[21:49:16] <Guest993> is that a homebrew mesa card ?
[21:49:24] <pjm> no its an off the shelf card
[21:49:52] <pjm> http://www.mesanet.com/fpgacardinfo.html
[21:50:02] <pjm> 7i43 is parport attach and 5i20 is pci
[21:50:06] <Guest993> how much hp from that motor ??
[21:50:16] <Guest993> look killer
[21:50:37] <Guest993> 120volt ?
[21:50:50] <pjm> its a 240vac 3phase
[21:50:59] <Guest993> wow
[21:51:13] <pjm> and has a variable frequency drive for speed control
[21:51:22] <Guest993> i see that very nice
[21:51:30] <pjm> it was very cheap!
[21:52:07] <Guest993> what base is that you x2 is on (pjm) ?
[21:52:12] <Guest993> or custom ?
[21:52:24] <pjm> custom made out of whatever i could find around ;-)
[21:52:44] <Guest993> and are those servos ?
[21:52:55] <pjm> no plain old steppers
[21:52:58] <jerk> pjm: have you described it anywhere on the www?
[21:53:11] <Guest993> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Pjm
[21:53:36] <jerk> Guest993: Oh, eah (digly-digly!!!)
[21:53:42] <jerk> (Cladmire)
[21:53:43] <Guest993> lol
[21:53:53] <jerk> lol
[21:54:25] <frallzor> did you mean Quagmire? =)
[21:54:38] <Guest993> brb changing screenname to wireballz
[21:54:46] <jerk> frallzor: actually, yes
[21:55:19] <Wireballz> Back
[21:55:50] <Wireballz> (pjm) that a sweet setup
[21:56:09] <pjm> thanks, it is a nice machine to use too
[21:56:17] <Wireballz> can you mill stainless with it ?
[21:56:29] <pjm> probably yes
[21:56:53] <Wireballz> just asking because it has some meat to it :)
[21:57:59] <jerk> pjm: What feed rate would you program for drilling/milling if you would?
[21:58:04] <pjm> yeah its not too bad in terms of strength
[21:58:22] <Wireballz> (pjm) what time is it over there where you live ?
[21:58:26] <pjm> jerk depends on material, drill size etc
[21:58:34] <pjm> its 22:58 local here
[21:58:50] <Wireballz> uk right
[21:59:02] <pjm> unfortunatly yes
[21:59:11] <jerk> pjm: stainless steel, 3 mm drill, 1 mm thick metal sheet?
[21:59:11] <Wireballz> I am in CA
[21:59:34] <jerk> pjm: Western Siberia, 5:00 a.m.
[21:59:58] <Wireballz> wow here pst 2:59PM
[22:00:24] <pjm> jerk http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=194
[22:00:59] <jerk> Wireballz: tomorrow, at 5:00 a.m. I will typing to you
[22:01:13] <Wireballz> what is the temp over there
[22:01:15] <Wireballz> lol
[22:01:30] <Wireballz> jerk
[22:01:36] <pjm> the temp is about 18C currently outside
[22:01:41] <Wireballz> WOW
[22:01:49] <jerk> it's summer, warm temperature, sun/rain, wet soil
[22:01:50] <pjm> it is summer after all ;-)
[22:01:55] <Wireballz> like 100F here
[22:02:07] <jerk> pjm: oh yeah!
[22:05:16] <jerk> haha, `wget -r -c http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=122'
[22:06:52] <jerk> no, doesn't work for only one webpage...
[22:09:16] <jerk> this was fun, from #ubuntu-offtopic, www.ikanobori.jp/garbage/likelog.txt -- I sometimes read it and getting a nice mood
[22:10:05] <pjm> i've not really tried stainless so far, mostly steel, ally and plastics
[22:10:11] <pjm> oh and some bits of wood and PCB's
[22:11:37] <jerk> `PCB'?
[22:11:59] <Wireballz> printed circut boards
[22:12:02] <Wireballz> :)
[22:12:19] <jerk> `a subroutine'
[22:18:44] <jerk> jerk is now known as good_kid
[22:21:44] <frallzor> hmm I just played with dormer product selector to find out speeds for plexi milling, does 3000rpm spindlespeed and feedrate 419mm/min with a 6mm tool seems right when milling plexi?
[22:22:54] <good_kid> it's soft and very viscous, Mythbusters use plexi as a bulletproof
[22:28:02] <dmes1> if you use too much rpm it will melt and gum an plug the flutes turning it into an 8mm plastic dowel pin wich goes click VERY soon after.
[22:28:32] <dmes1> fyi Mythbusters use Lexan as bulletproof
[22:28:38] <frallzor> yup
[22:28:59] <dmes1> and Lexan Is b/proof
[22:29:11] <frallzor> if you have enogh feedrate it wont do bad afaik
[22:30:18] <dmes1> no... the sfm... melts it instead of cutting it.. i had a 60 K spindle and changed to the reg spindle to make good parts...
[22:30:25] <good_kid> dmes1: how about feed rates for thick rubber? The faster the better?
[22:31:44] <dmes1> i drilled .029" holes in nickle-bronze last week at 1800 rpm and 1.6 ipm.... we tried 5 colid carbide tools @ 8000 and didnt get 1 hole
[22:32:28] <good_kid> what is `ipm'?
[22:32:28] <frallzor> well I assume you need more feedrate than allmost all machined can do =)
[22:32:39] <dmes1> rubber... freeze it the night before ... do the set up and in the am go fast.. get it while its frozen
[22:32:49] <good_kid> i/m
[22:32:50] <dmes1> inches per minute
[22:33:02] <frallzor> *s
[22:33:23] <good_kid> dmes1: nice advice.
[22:33:55] <dmes1> or if you have access to liquid nitrogen.. dip in there for a while
[22:34:45] <good_kid> I used to do everything by hand. These days, have a time and read some books. It seems they have nothing useful. Scientific data and maths, applied to routine tasks.
[22:35:01] <pjm> right gn all, getting late here
[22:35:03] <good_kid> dmes1: no, this is not needed at all.
[22:36:03] <dmes1> I attended the shool of hard knocks... lessons learned are never forgoten
[22:37:45] <Wireballz> Night (pjm) thanks again :)
[22:39:58] <good_kid> "Scientific data and maths, applied to routine tasks".
[22:41:08] <frallzor> I calculate that stuff in school, for milling and lathe, its useful.
[22:42:20] <good_kid> frallzor: which formulae do you use?
[22:43:19] <frallzor> I dont have those in my head, I use a book called Karlebo
[22:43:23] <frallzor> the engineers bible
[22:44:06] <good_kid> frallzor: I also have few `bibles' from few gods, on Russian.
[22:45:14] <good_kid> frallzor: i think those numbers for frames made of ingot steel are too useless for relatively soft frames of many machines
[22:45:25] <good_kid> *too big = useless
[22:46:26] <frallzor> I have no idea what you are talking about
[22:48:45] <dmes1> its all about cutting speed for a particular material... then you apply some not-so-common sense about the rigidity af your tooling and set up to guess-timate an appropriate feed.
[22:49:07] <frallzor> I used dormers software to guess-timate
[22:49:09] <dmes1> in feed per tooth
[22:49:10] <frallzor> I trust it =)
[22:50:08] <good_kid> frallzor: i have few books for mechanical engineering, `engineering bibles', of different authors. They contain formulae, where the speed of the cut is derived from the power of the corresponding machine's motor. I want to use the smallest values from there.
[22:50:47] <dmes1> iscar...kenna....seco... they all have recommended speeds and feeds... but trust ME they are rarely optimized... i can tell how a cutter is cutting by the hair on the back of my neck
[22:51:42] <dmes1> yes.. you want the lowest cutting speed the material can be effectively cut on your machine
[22:52:07] <good_kid> wait a minute
[22:52:23] <dmes1> unfortunatly all our parts go thru nital etch... so too fast and it burned... they find
[22:52:24] <dmes1> it
[22:52:46] <good_kid> dmes1: then, I will advance in speed
[22:52:55] <dmes1> why so??
[22:53:13] <dmes1> are you tearing material away??
[22:53:41] <good_kid> dmes1: no, i will advance towards those tables' values
[22:54:13] <dmes1> give me an example for 4140 steel...
[22:54:41] <dmes1> or russian equivilant... Ti 5553??
[22:54:45] <good_kid> dmes1: which SigmaB does the 4140 steel have?
[22:55:31] <dmes1> not off the top of my head.. but try 300M @ 200 ksi
[22:56:34] <good_kid> OK...
[22:56:40] <dmes1> kips per square inch 1 kip=1000 pounds /2.2= kg
[22:57:35] <dmes1> where are you located good_kid
[22:57:52] <good_kid> here: Western Siberia, a chair
[22:58:03] <good_kid> a chair in the Western Siberia
[22:58:16] <good_kid> that one behind the computer
[22:59:55] <good_kid> >600 MPa of Sigma_t steel, for 6 mm drill -- .2 .15 and .1
[23:00:35] <dmes1> hmmm had a job offer in north eastern Siberia last summer....was too long away from the family... 2 yr installation of 4-6 machines
[23:00:35] <good_kid> <60 MPa of Sigma_t steel, for 6 mm drill -- .2 .15 and .1
[23:01:13] <good_kid> same but for a cast iron with sigma_t<160 MPa -- .3 .15 .1
[23:01:31] <good_kid> 2-year?
[23:01:43] <dmes1> sounds about correct for feed what surface speed is the 6mm drill spinning
[23:01:56] <dmes1> yes 2 years
[23:03:07] <good_kid> it's another table, mm/revolution ~ m/min -- for Steel, with multiplying coefficients
[23:03:17] <dmes1> these are LARGE profilers from Cincinatti milicron... the place thats building your SJ100 wide body... I make the landing gear.. by the way. ;)
[23:03:35] <good_kid> for .2 V=28,33,38,35,37 m/min
[23:04:02] <dmes1> dont look off the scale at all
[23:04:51] <dmes1> any info on Ti 5553???
[23:05:02] <good_kid> What is SJ100. And if it's my, where the hell are my money, dividents, or at least something? Amn't I the general director, by the way?!!
[23:06:03] <good_kid> Ti 5553? It's a reference book for young mechanical engineer from Springfield, state Alabama. (In translation to English :)
[23:06:36] <good_kid> No, this book has no such alloy.
[23:06:48] <dmes1> material titanium 5553 is an alloy developed in Russia
[23:07:07] <good_kid> dmes1: it's a
[23:07:36] <dmes1> a what??
[23:07:46] <good_kid> it's a book from the year-1973
[23:08:07] <dmes1> oh well
[23:09:15] <dmes1> this is a newly certifed-in-the-west alloy that was developed and is in abundance in northern Russia i hear
[23:09:36] <good_kid> there is a formula, N=F(V), and that's all.
[23:10:26] <good_kid> dmes1: there're many deposit fields at the North Siberia.
[23:11:38] <dmes1> are they all close to the surface to make mining easy??
[23:11:43] <good_kid> This Ti alloy is probably special in a particular way: certain known advantages + less amount of disadvantages.
[23:12:20] <dmes1> yes it is a full alpha alloy if i recall
[23:13:35] <dmes1> excellent stress/strain characteristics and awesome stress corrosion
[23:13:45] <good_kid> I don't really remember the Titan's properties. It's light-weight while providing the **same** uh... forgot the word
[23:15:29] <dmes1> whats the highest factor on your surface speed table.. sorry if you lost the page already.. ;)
[23:15:53] <good_kid> dmes1: but... it's only good in phisycal-as-for-aerocosmonautics meaning. In mechanics, it's just very lightweigh, like an aluminum, but endures long-term pulcing loads as the steel
[23:16:27] <good_kid> dmes1: it's a scanned book, and linux ubuntu. it always opens up the same page
[23:16:35] <dmes1> its composition???
[23:17:07] <good_kid> dmes1: what? I meant the properties in comparison with other alloys
[23:18:46] <dmes1> Microstructure/property correlations
[23:18:46] <dmes1> The cast material from the fluidity molds was
[23:18:46] <dmes1> T
[23:18:46] <dmes1> HIP’ed, and selected pieces were chemically
[23:18:46] <dmes1> itanium alloy 5553 (Ti-5Al-5V-5Mo-3Cr)
[23:19:27] <good_kid> for 0.05 mm/rev for 2 mm drill made of a cutting steel with coolant = 46 m/min
[23:19:28] <dmes1> OPPS
[23:19:31] <dmes1> SORRY
[23:20:00] <dmes1> sound good to me
[23:20:23] <dmes1> hihs speed steel driil
[23:20:27] <dmes1> high
[23:21:30] <good_kid> dmes1: i just wanted to say, one book about materials i read before said Ti is good when you need to reduce weight. Alloys colour up advantages while reducing faults
[23:22:42] <good_kid> for .08 mm/rev and 2 mm drill -- 32 m/min, for .10 mm/rev and 2-4-6 mm drills -- 26, 42, and 49 m/min
[23:23:11] <dmes1> still works for me..
[23:23:51] <dmes1> seems you have a machinist bible there too...
[23:24:38] <good_kid> Cr-Ni steel reduces this values by multiplying them to .75 for 55 MPa for sigma_t, .57 for .57, .45 for 95, and .40 for 105 MPa
[23:25:25] <good_kid> dmes1: it's "Dnilevsky2.djvu" at "www.listlib.narod.ru", page 57, or just page 484
[23:25:36] <dmes1> we work at stuff over 200 MPa at my work... after heat treat....
[23:26:44] <dmes1> but my russian isnt soo good.. vitaly is not working with me any more.... he once said i would have made a good russian.. ;)
[23:27:27] <dmes1> how many letters in your alphabet??
[23:27:37] <good_kid> http://www.listlib.narod.ru/mashstroy/aDanilevski.htm
[23:27:49] <good_kid> 33
[23:28:23] <dmes1> man.. we have 26... but you look like you have some cool ones... LOL
[23:29:25] <good_kid> dmes1: Sigma_t = temporary load. it's like 60 kg/mm2 = 600 N/(10E-6) = 600 MPa, sorry for wrong numbers
[23:29:53] <good_kid> kg per square millimeter, old book
[23:30:30] <dmes1> im bilingual... i know metric too and do the math in my head if need be
[23:31:00] <good_kid> dmes1: i sometimes forget about the necessary maths
[23:31:20] <good_kid> 200 MPa = 20 kg/mm2
[23:31:43] <dmes1> metric is the easy one.... the bna system is where stuff nees memory
[23:32:00] <good_kid> So, ok those coefficients modify the value from 0.4 up to 1.2
[23:32:26] <good_kid> dmes1: like "what's bigger, 7/8 or 5/6?"
[23:32:34] <dmes1> i was a physics junkie thru high school... you never forget what you use or love
[23:32:45] <good_kid> -- "my !@#$% is begger!"
[23:33:11] <good_kid> d,ei know maths and theoretical mechanics
[23:33:30] <dmes1> how old are ya??
[23:33:37] <good_kid> 24
[23:33:56] <dmes1> ok challenge?? you up to it??
[23:34:03] <good_kid> I'm usually a good_kid, but sometimes I'm a jerk.
[23:34:15] <good_kid> dmes1: what do you mean?
[23:34:23] <good_kid> OK, anyway!
[23:35:01] <dmes1> im an ass-half all the time because my twin brother would need to be here so i could be an ass-whole...
[23:35:33] <good_kid> =-O OH!!!!
[23:36:13] <dmes1> can you write the equations to find the center of rotation of a point.. and code it to a macro
[23:36:21] <good_kid> I tell people on IRC i go in the shower.
[23:36:57] <dmes1> ahhh thats good for athletes foot... no sweat
[23:37:06] <good_kid> no programming. I only solved those momentary centers of the speed and acceleretion
[23:37:32] <good_kid> with a book.
[23:37:53] <dmes1> you can use all the books you need .. i didi
[23:37:59] <good_kid> I meant I'm solving wwith a book, usually.
[23:38:01] <dmes1> t
[23:38:21] <good_kid> listlib.narod.ru ~ 4.5 Gb, I have copied that website once.
[23:39:47] <good_kid> "center of the masses" for segments and simple figures, we called this "graphical calculations works", 5 or more a semester
[23:41:40] <dmes1> it must be algebraic... not guestimated.
[23:42:15] <good_kid> so, by the way, page 484 says those numbers for V are multiplied further for duraluminum = 2.5, for bronze = 0.75, for "latun'" (Cu+? alloy)= 3.5
[23:42:33] <good_kid> dmes1: I can download the textbook.
[23:44:07] <good_kid> dmes1: it's something like... for i=1 to i=n Epsilon = (sum of V_i * r_i)/(V_i*r_I + ... + V_n*r_n)
[23:44:24] <good_kid> I would take the book and see if it's relly needed.
[23:44:46] <good_kid> r is a vector
[23:45:00] <good_kid> We did it for plane figures.
[23:45:28] <good_kid> latun is an alloy of Cu and... Ah, I should have known!!!
[23:46:45] <dmes1> brb
[23:47:09] <good_kid> brb, yeah... awfull! formulas...
[23:48:24] <good_kid> Or rather r= for i=1 to i=n Epsilon = (sum of V_i * r_i)/(V_i + ... + V_n)
[23:53:37] <good_kid> Cu+ about 40 % of Zn = Latun'
[23:54:18] <good_kid> V (m/min) =values * K2 * K1
[23:57:57] <dmes1> i've had my mother transcribe math from latin scripts... just so i could see if it it worked.... it's never easy but maths are a labor of love... you iether love them or hate them. I hated math till i was 18 and realized ITS ALL MATH.... everything can be broken down to an equation.. if you think in the simplest components
[23:58:40] <good_kid> yeah...
[23:59:36] <dmes1> hell i have the math for my EX leaving... and had i done it 10 years ago.. i'd be much further ahead