#emc | Logs for 2009-08-11

[00:11:57] <Valen> getting it regassed is probably in the $80 range
[03:34:58] <jymm> toastatwork: If the AC came with the apt when it was first rented, and the rental agreement doesn't stipulate anything like "as-is", then they are responsable for repair.
[03:35:31] <toastydeath> jymm: the problem is a little ambiguous - nothing is broken insofar as anyone can tell, the unit is just insufficient to cool the apartment
[03:35:38] <toastydeath> i'm not sure if that falls under anything =/
[03:35:54] <jymm> Well, what is the BTU rating?
[03:36:31] <toastydeath> no idea
[03:36:37] <toastydeath> lemme see if it's stamped on it somewhere
[03:36:51] <jymm> and mind you, that most window AC that run on 120VAC are usually limited to 12,000 BTU, above that require 220VAC
[03:37:16] <jymm> toastatwork: It'll be on a label, sometimes behind the filter.
[03:37:33] <jymm> toastatwork: Aslo, how many sqft is the apt?
[03:37:44] <jymm> Also, do you have attic access?
[03:39:04] <toastydeath> i do not have attic access
[03:39:08] <toastydeath> i can't get to the label
[03:39:23] <toastydeath> i can find the heater's label and see it, the ac part not so much
[03:39:37] <jymm> t's combo? AC and heat?
[03:39:42] <toastydeath> yeah
[03:39:45] <jymm> eh
[03:39:46] <jymm> ew
[03:40:41] <toastydeath> dunno, part of the problem is the apartment is so incredibly poorly insualted
[03:40:42] <toastydeath> *insulated
[03:40:55] <jymm> Well, I'll tell you this, blown in insulation makes a HUGE difference. I rented a cottage and eventually insulated the attic myself, my only regret is that I didn't do it years before.
[03:41:15] <toastydeath> i'm getting the heat load from all the other apartments - in the winter, i can turn my heat off and it doesn't drop below ~68
[03:41:27] <jymm> In the winter, it went from heating up in 20 minutes to 5
[03:41:32] <toastydeath> unfortunately that doesn't help me because natural gas in included
[03:41:36] <toastydeath> *is
[03:41:44] <toastydeath> also more than the attic, are the single-pane glass windows
[03:41:48] <toastydeath> with gaps around the edges
[03:42:15] <jymm> how many sqft?
[03:42:16] <toastydeath> it doesn't LOOK like a shitty apartment complex, but i've discovered it is
[03:42:21] <toastydeath> uh, like 800?
[03:43:00] <jymm> Well, we have ZERO insulation in the ceiling. and have two AC's (we own).
[03:43:42] <toastydeath> oh, that's another shitty thing
[03:43:43] <toastydeath> these windows?
[03:43:56] <toastydeath> they're like safety windows - I'm pretty sure you can't put an AC unit up
[03:44:11] <jymm> safety? as in they dont open?
[03:44:17] <toastydeath> as in the opening is very small
[03:44:21] <toastydeath> and vertical - not horizontal
[03:44:33] <jymm> how big is the opening?
[03:44:40] <toastydeath> it's about 1 foot wide by 4 feet tall
[03:44:47] <toastydeath> perminant screen on the other side
[03:45:24] <jymm> you could get a portable AC unit
[03:45:55] <toastydeath> i'm going to do some research and re-read the terms
[03:46:05] <toastydeath> to see if i can just say shit's broken, replace it
[03:46:05] <jymm> http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11323977&search=air%20conditioner&Mo=2&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Sp=S&N=5000043&whse=BC&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ne=4000000&D=air%20conditioner&Ntt=air%20conditioner&No=0&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav=&s=1
[03:46:17] <toastydeath> hmmmmmm
[03:46:28] <toastydeath> i will bookmark that, thank you
[03:47:21] <jymm> they have them at Sears, kmart, home depot, lowes, etc. but they are seasonal so only available till mid summer or less.
[03:48:04] <jymm> and dont get one that is like 6000-8000 BTU, they are worthless
[03:48:24] <jymm> try at least 12000 BTU or better
[03:49:11] <jymm> 14000 BTU should serve you well, now and in the future. Also check craigslist.org as ppl sell them often
[03:49:34] <jymm> they move and the new place has central air, etc
[03:52:18] <toastydeath> how is the bill
[03:52:29] <toastydeath> i guess i should turn off the shitty unit and use that instead?
[03:53:07] <jymm> You could, if you get a portable unt they are usually energy efficient
[03:53:19] <jymm> energy start rated at least
[03:53:34] <toastydeath> hmmmmm
[03:54:56] <jymm> The trick to having a cool place is to start the AC early in the morning, and not try playing catch up after it's gotten hot.
[03:56:55] <jymm> toastatwork: THESE ARE AWESOME we have two of them http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053&N=5yc1vZ1xr5&R=100662921
[04:03:36] <jymm> toastatwork: screw any one those plasic fans and avoid LASKO brand like the plague, pos of shit
[04:03:52] <toastyde1th> jymm: sorry, dc'ed
[04:03:52] <jymm> toastatwork: THESE ARE AWESOME we have two of them http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053&N=5yc1vZ1xr5&R=100662921
[04:04:23] <toastyde1th> cool, two of those and a portable ac unit
[04:04:26] <toastyde1th> and i should be set
[04:04:28] <jymm> toastyde1th: avoid LASKO brand fans, they're crap.
[04:04:45] <jymm> toastyde1th: shit, one of those fans shuld be enugh for 800 sf
[04:04:45] <toastyde1th> haha i used to have lasko fans =(
[04:05:00] <toastyde1th> it SHOULD be
[04:05:06] <toastyde1th> but I don't want to take any risks
[04:05:26] <jymm> Oh, if you disconnected....
[04:05:33] <jymm> The trick to having a cool place is to start the AC early in the morning, and not try playing catch up after it's gotten hot.
[04:05:43] <toastyde1th> i leave it full blast all day
[04:05:51] <toastyde1th> literally, my ac unit never shuts off during the summer months
[04:05:56] <jymm> But start in the morning like 10am
[04:06:06] <jymm> oh ok
[04:06:26] <toastyde1th> it has been running continuously since june-ish
[04:06:57] <jymm> toastyde1th: If you get those fans, install the feet it comes with or it'll tip over and start moving on it's own
[04:07:27] <jymm> Even on low, sometimes it's lil too much
[04:08:29] <toastyde1th> yeah
[04:08:42] <toastyde1th> at my parents house I had the housefan for a 4000 sq-ft central AC unit
[04:08:53] <toastyde1th> thankfully it weighed about 50 lbs and didn't go anywhere
[04:08:57] <jymm> If you get one, and the fan wobbles, exchange it.
[04:09:03] <toastyde1th> k
[04:09:16] <jymm> well wobbles/vibrates too much that is
[04:09:33] <jymm> it'll do a little, it's just the excess that you want to avoid.
[04:20:04] <toastydeath> what the hell is going on with my internets
[04:22:50] <jymm> too hot?
[04:23:19] <jymm> (no pun intended)
[04:23:28] <toastydeath> zing
[04:23:59] <jymm> I had a ext hdd go into error mode last moth due to being too hot
[04:26:05] <toastydeath> something gets hosed up networking-wise on this pc
[04:26:09] <toastydeath> and i have to reboot it
[04:26:21] <toastydeath> it has an address, link lights, the whole deal
[04:26:24] <toastydeath> it just stops passing traffic
[04:36:50] <toastydeath> i need to take a picture of this endmill
[04:36:59] <toastydeath> it is the biggest i have ever seen
[04:40:19] <jymm> that's what she said
[04:46:46] <toastydeath> http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y5/toastydeath/DSC_4255.jpg
[04:46:49] <toastydeath> http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y5/toastydeath/DSC_4256.jpg
[04:46:53] <toastydeath> http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y5/toastydeath/DSC_4260.jpg
[04:50:51] <jymm> toastydeath: Yo sure that's just not a sex toy from hell?
[04:51:07] <toastydeath> hahaha
[04:52:27] <jymm> just asking
[04:52:36] <toastydeath> it's sharp as hell, so i hope not
[04:52:45] <toastydeath> 3" diameter, 10" flute length, 10x flutes
[04:52:53] <toastydeath> nmtb-50 taper
[05:45:03] <good_kid> toastydeath: what are you doing with that thing?
[05:50:15] <jymm> I think it's a present for his EX girlfirend.
[05:51:13] <good_kid> jymm: he has brought home a tool, he wants to do something with it!
[05:51:40] <jymm> I think it's a present for his EX girlfirend.
[05:52:15] <good_kid> He wants to drill earth and destruct our planet.
[05:54:04] <good_kid> Which picture shows the tool better?
[06:01:19] <good_kid> Is the number of cutting edges standard for all the sizes of the drills?
[06:02:19] <good_kid> He wats to kill the president with that thing!
[06:03:19] <good_kid> good_kid is now known as jerk
[06:45:01] <toastatwork> jerk: standard twist drills all have two cutting edges. there is no reason you can't buy a drill with three, four, etc flutes.
[06:46:33] <jymm> http://www.drillbitsworld.com/Drills-3_Flute_Drills.html
[06:46:59] <toastatwork> but the tool in the pictures is an endmill, not a drill, and it can't plunge
[06:47:22] <toastatwork> and now I go to sleep
[06:47:30] <jymm> toastatwork: I think it's a present for your EX girlfirend.
[06:48:57] <jerk> toastydeath: thanks
[06:54:28] <jerk> jerk is now known as good_kid
[09:25:40] <alex_joni> http://www.pocoro-thegame.com/
[09:50:05] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[10:06:51] <BigJohnT> http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/catid,16/id,691/lang,en/#693
[10:10:07] <archivist_emc> BigJohnT, http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.emc.user/12642
[10:11:06] <BigJohnT> thanks
[10:11:51] <archivist> one of my saved pages :)
[10:57:06] <good_kid> archivist can you send me that webpage compressed?
[10:57:34] <good_kid> I'm watching logs with ` wget -r -c http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2009-08-11.txt'
[10:59:03] <good_kid> Saving pocket money. Have changed the mobile phone plan to 10 mb/USD. If I would try to use less toilet paper each time...
[10:59:05] <good_kid> ;)
[11:00:09] <good_kid> Do you want to play in chat? Join to the channel, `/join ##jswolfbot'
[11:11:14] <good_kid> `If only I would learn how to use less toilet paper each time...' sounds even more funny!
[11:23:46] <good_kid> Dallur  `/join ##jswolfbot'
[17:31:40] <LawrenceG> cool... Alibre cad for $99 http://www.alibre.com/99/default.asp
[17:53:58] <skunkworks726> does anyone remember the fea that jmk used to model his table?
[18:00:35] <skunkworks726> was it this maybe?
[18:00:37] <skunkworks726> http://caelinux.com/CMS/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
[18:11:19] <SWPadnos> I think he used Salome, but for some reason couldn't use that distro
[18:11:55] <SWPadnos> hmmm. no, he starte with something he could make text files (by hand) for, but then maybe ended up using CAELinux/Salome
[18:12:09] <kanzure> can someone convince me to download salome?
[18:12:12] <kanzure> I've been meaning to do it
[18:12:22] <kanzure> but I'm not quite sure what will be inside
[18:12:35] <archivist> strangeness
[18:38:41] <wholepair> anyone here played with HeeksCNC
[18:39:51] <skunkworks726> wholepair: #cam is where heekscnc is discussed. (I have only played with it slightly.) (heekscam)
[18:41:07] <wholepair> I went there - no one is awake... and I was not sure if that channel was specific to heekscnc or not -
[18:42:01] <fenn> it is
[18:42:39] <wholepair> fenn, oic
[19:04:05] <alex_joni> LawrenceG: you can grab the v12 beta for free though :P
[19:08:05] <alex_joni> alibre v12 I mean
[19:08:21] <alex_joni> LawrenceG: http://www.alibre.com/v12sneakpeek/
[20:40:11] <jymm> alex_joni: Are you aware that IRSeekBot is in the channel?
[20:41:05] <archivist> did they ask permission
[20:41:10] <cradek> cradek has kicked IRSeekBot3 from #emc
[20:41:25] <jymm> I dont know, that's why I asking
[20:41:56] <archivist> iirc they are only supposed to log after asking
[20:42:41] <jymm> That's wy I brought it up, it's been in here for at least 24h, I didn't know if someone else was asked or not.
[20:43:17] <jymm> cradek: might as well add a ban while you're at it
[20:43:51] <cradek> they never seem to come back
[20:43:52] <jymm> /mode #emc +b irseekbot!*@*
[20:44:09] <jymm> err
[20:44:15] <jymm> /mode #emc +b irseekbot*!*@*
[21:55:04] <mikegg> what sorts of things can cause feed rate dependent noise?
[21:55:30] <mikegg> maybe that's a little too broad
[21:55:56] <archivist> stepper resonance
[21:56:02] <mikegg> using servos
[21:56:32] <mikegg> http://imagebin.ca/view/9DveRBy.html
[21:56:47] <mikegg> halscope screen shot
[21:57:26] <mikegg> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkgTGt-xUro
[21:57:33] <mikegg> you can hear it too
[21:58:11] <archivist> * archivist has no sound card
[22:00:17] <mikegg> http://imagebin.ca/view/mHHrjUj.html
[22:00:28] <mikegg> opposite direction. twice the feed
[22:06:30] <geo01005> mikegg, you may want to look at tuning the PID parameters a little better.
[22:07:37] <mikegg> yeah I know tune sucks
[22:08:01] <mikegg> ...struggling with that.
[22:08:18] <geo01005> what does the joints position feedback look like? are you missing encoder counts?
[22:08:24] <mikegg> any time I give it the least bit of D gain. they oscillate
[22:08:39] <mikegg> oooh. that could be
[22:09:42] <geo01005> http://controls.engin.umich.edu/wiki/index.php/PIDTuningClassical#Ziegler-Nichols_Method
[22:10:07] <geo01005> Is the encoder you are using homemade or an industrial type?
[22:11:09] <mikegg> came with the motor. 20,000 cpr
[22:14:11] <geo01005> Actually I don't think that it is the encoder...
[22:15:28] <geo01005> The scope traces, were you putting your finger on the coupler when you made those? (are the high spots in the error because you put you finger on the shaft)
[22:15:40] <mikegg> oh, no
[22:16:06] <mikegg> video just shows the audible noise. noise gets louder the more pressure you put on the coupling
[22:16:38] <geo01005> but the motor is driving something?
[22:16:40] <mikegg> the scope traces are just a move. no touching
[22:16:43] <mikegg> yes
[22:17:03] <geo01005> Hmm, I think that it is just a tuning problem.
[22:20:58] <mikegg> well I know the tune is not the best. but if I set the joint up for a long slow move
[22:21:18] <mikegg> I can twiddle the gains and see the response change. but the noise stays there
[22:22:33] <geo01005> so the noise is quite small.
[22:24:49] <geo01005> the scale that you are looking at, in my opinion, is misleading.
[22:25:57] <SWPadnos> what is the overall scale?
[22:26:10] <SWPadnos> 20000 CPR = 80000 counte per rev, and that looks like a small screw
[22:26:20] <SWPadnos> counts
[22:26:45] <SWPadnos> also, what kind of encoder counting hardware (parallel port , mesa ...)?
[22:26:52] <mikegg> 20,000 counts per rev. lead screw is 20 TPI
[22:26:58] <mikegg> 5i20
[22:27:10] <SWPadnos> ok, so you're at 400000 counts per inch
[22:27:13] <mikegg> yep
[22:27:14] <SWPadnos> (!)
[22:27:17] <mikegg> :)
[22:27:24] <SWPadnos> what version of EMC2/
[22:27:25] <SWPadnos> ?
[22:27:29] <mikegg> 2.3.3
[22:28:08] <SWPadnos> too bad we don't have a PID component that can take the more accurate velocity feedback from the encoder
[22:28:50] <SWPadnos> so that was a move at about 3 IPM?
[22:29:04] <mikegg> 2.4 and 4.8
[22:29:08] <SWPadnos> ok
[22:30:22] <mikegg> it does it on all three axes as well
[22:30:37] <SWPadnos> same scale on all 3?
[22:30:41] <mikegg> yes
[22:31:14] <mikegg> 5i20 with a 7i33. to be specific
[22:31:26] <SWPadnos> what's the latency of the PC?
[22:32:21] <mikegg> http://imagebin.ca/view/fwCDpQ.html
[22:32:21] <SWPadnos> you're getting about 16 counts per servo cycle run, but it could be +/- 2 counts with very low timing jitter (in the PC)
[22:36:10] <SWPadnos> I guess there are two possibilities I can think of
[22:36:17] <geo01005> what happens when you only have P gain?
[22:36:26] <mikegg> still there
[22:36:50] <geo01005> (Low P gain)
[22:36:52] <SWPadnos> one is that the resolution is just too high, so a very slight (one bit) change in PWM output makes the motor jump too far
[22:37:28] <mikegg> that sorta makes sense
[22:38:01] <SWPadnos> or that the graininess of the difference calculation is similarly too coarse a resolution (since the D term is based on the difference in position between servo cycle executions, and those are (a) granular and (b) slightly variable)
[22:39:19] <mikegg> for the first one.... the noise is dependent on feed rate. would that make sense?
[22:42:21] <PCW> Looked like the noise peaks were periodic with 2 peaks per turn, does this stay the same at different feed rates?
[22:42:46] <mikegg> no, higher feed = more peaks
[22:42:55] <SWPadnos> oh interesting. misaligned coupling or something
[22:42:59] <mikegg> really?
[22:43:57] <mikegg> i know the couplings are misaligned
[22:44:13] <geo01005> what is your PDM frequency for the 7i33?
[22:44:27] <mikegg> PWM?
[22:44:53] <mikegg> whatever the default is.. going to have to hunt for that
[22:45:03] <PCW> 7I33 has best performance with 6MHz PDM
[22:45:27] <geo01005> I was just going to say that is what the manual says :)
[22:45:50] <geo01005> High ripple at the lower frequency default setting.
[22:47:39] <PCW> Yes, if you set PWM frequency high enough to minimize ripple you will only get 10 or 11 bit resolution
[22:47:41] <PCW> with PDM you can get good linearity and 13 bit resolution
[22:49:00] <PCW> (I still think the funny noise is mechanical) if it were a motor PWM / 7I33 ripple beat
[22:49:01] <PCW> the beat frequency would be constant
[22:50:18] <mikegg> lemme unbolt the motor real quick
[22:50:27] <geo01005> The audible noise may be due to the PDM stuff.
[22:54:57] <mikegg> it's not mechanical....makes the same noise with the motor on the bench
[22:55:09] <mikegg> where do you set the PDM frequency?
[22:55:22] <geo01005> it is a parameters for the stepgens
[22:55:34] <geo01005> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/man/man9/hostmot2.9.html
[22:55:50] <geo01005> Last paragraph under the pwm's
[22:56:02] <geo01005> sorry for the PWMs.. not stepgen.
[22:56:33] <geo01005> output-type =3
[22:56:48] <geo01005> pdm_frequency= 6000000
[22:58:42] <mikegg> from hal config.. pdm_frequency = 00004E20
[22:58:45] <mikegg> is that hex?
[22:59:02] <geo01005> yes, I think so.
[22:59:13] <PCW> Yes, and that sounds about right
[22:59:20] <mikegg> if only I had 16 fingers...
[22:59:59] <geo01005> 4E20 is only 20 khz....
[23:00:26] <mikegg> so...crank it up?
[23:00:34] <PCW> I was thinking register value but thats wrong also
[23:02:14] <PCW> 20 KHz PDM will give you _terrible_ ripple
[23:02:18] <geo01005> you will also need to change to PDM mode for anything to change.
[23:07:51] <mikegg> shit guys
[23:07:59] <mikegg> gonna have to read up on that one....
[23:08:04] <mikegg> will figure it out tomorrow
[23:08:33] <mikegg> thanks all. will let you know
[23:12:37] <PCW> It would be nice if the HM2 HAL setup file had some options for different daughtercard types
[23:12:39] <PCW> with optimal settings for each type