#emc | Logs for 2009-08-08

[00:48:30] <skunkworks_> customer appreciation sale at gecko http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87380
[01:18:31] <jymm> skunkworks++
[01:20:19] <jymm> jymm has changed the topic to: Welcome! EMC (Enhanced Machine Controller) is a linux-based opensource CNC control. | Latest release: EMC 2.3.3 | http://www.linuxcnc.org | http://wiki.linuxcnc.org | Geckos on sale till August 23rd
[01:38:24] <jymm> SWPadnos: ~~~~~~~~~~~
[04:19:54] <Valen1> Valen1 is now known as Valen
[12:27:14] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[17:27:18] <Xteven> hi
[17:27:51] <Xteven> I understand that emc2 only controls the cnc machine to route around the tool
[17:28:56] <Xteven> but where in the process do I get to say: I only have a drillbit of 5mm diameter
[17:29:14] <Xteven> is that in the CAD program that genenrates the g-code ?
[17:29:50] <jymm> Actually it's the CAM, not CAD program that genertes g-code
[17:29:57] <Xteven> ah
[17:30:05] <jymm> CAD --> CAM --> G-code
[17:30:32] <Xteven> so the CAM software has knowledge about what my CNC machine can do ?
[17:30:56] <jymm> To some extent, yes.
[17:31:21] <Xteven> what other parts are there to consider ? :)
[17:31:36] <jymm> such as?
[17:32:24] <Xteven> well
[17:32:32] <Xteven> you said "to some extent"
[17:32:38] <Xteven> what do you mean by that ?
[17:32:53] <jymm> Soemtimes there is post-processing
[17:33:36] <Xteven> after the CAM step ?
[17:33:54] <Xteven> I guess that means someone reads the g-code and maybe optimizes it or so ?
[17:34:05] <jymm> It might have info like max travel, max speed, spindle,cooling, etc that describes the machine. No, usually you tell the CAM program about your machine
[17:34:23] <Xteven> ah
[17:35:17] <jymm> Your machien might have a tool changer, may it doesn't. So either a) change a tool automatically, or b) insert a pasue and say "Insert tool blah"
[17:35:37] <Xteven> I see
[17:35:39] <jymm> s/may/maybe/
[17:36:20] <Xteven> I guess the CAM process is what all those scripts on the wiki are for
[17:36:26] <Xteven> to convert svg to g-code and so on
[17:36:42] <Xteven> it makes sense
[17:36:52] <ilya_> pause as M-?
[17:37:14] <jymm> There are many different ways to generate g-code, those are just some of them.
[17:37:24] <Xteven> ok
[17:37:37] <jymm> Xteven: Where did you see svg2gcode?
[17:37:42] <ilya_> Xteven: saving svg as dxf from the Iknkscape is quite a trick
[17:37:45] <Xteven> uhm
[17:38:13] <jymm> ilya_: dont trust inkscape, the math is off.
[17:38:27] <jymm> it's a known issue for years.
[17:38:54] <Xteven> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Cam
[17:39:04] <Xteven> there are some entries that deal with SVG
[17:39:12] <Xteven> I haven't looked at them in depth
[17:39:52] <jymm> I havent' either, thats why I asked =)
[17:42:43] <jymm> SWPadnos: I dont' know why, but I find it funny that digikey doesn't have as wide a selection of LED's than ebay has =)
[17:42:47] <ilya_> jymm: so, inkscape doesn't use maths?
[17:43:45] <jymm> ilya_: No, it's that the math can be wrong. Instead of 2.000, you might get 1.978 or 2.019
[17:44:47] <Xteven> ugh that sucks
[17:45:15] <jymm> View the SVG source to confirm
[17:46:03] <SWPadnos> jymm, it sure seems to
[17:46:16] <SWPadnos> (re: DK and LEDs)
[17:48:30] <jymm> SWPadnos: Yeah, I went looking for 3mm flat tops and no high power, eh oh well.
[17:49:50] <ilya_> jymm: actually, i haven't saved anything from Inkscape to dxf yet.
[17:50:49] <Xteven> maybe qcad would be a better choice for the CAD part ?
[18:18:36] <GammaX> any thoughts on usb oscilloscopes with combined logic analyzer?
[18:18:47] <SWPadnos> barf
[18:19:37] <GammaX> :(
[18:20:23] <SWPadnos> my view is kind of a corollary to "you get what you pay for": "you don't get what you don't pay for"
[18:20:41] <GammaX> SWPadnos, there any logic analyzers that will let you see text instead of bits or hex?
[18:20:50] <archivist> sure
[18:20:51] <SWPadnos> you're not making sense
[18:21:25] <SWPadnos> there are bus analyzers that will disassemble code as it's fetched and executed (for smallish CPUs by todays standards)
[18:21:53] <SWPadnos> so you can see backtraces of actual CPU execution
[18:22:58] <archivist> they are programmable so can be tailored for the job
[18:23:31] <archivist> I need to fix my tek DAS9100
[18:27:52] <GammaX> how much do those run?
[18:28:03] <GammaX> I guess a buss analyzer is diff than a logic analyzer? haha
[18:28:50] <archivist> not always
[18:31:49] <GammaX> archivist, Check PM
[18:31:56] <archivist> ask in chan
[18:32:47] <GammaX> I hate writing in the chan cause I sound like such a noob haha.
[18:32:48] <GammaX> What would be the best thing for getting into reverse engineering hardware devices?
[18:32:56] <archivist> brain
[18:33:18] <SWPadnos> brain and brain. what is brain?
[18:33:47] <GammaX> You reffering to my brain? lol
[18:34:31] <SWPadnos> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708449/
[18:34:59] <GammaX> haha
[18:35:52] <archivist> I used to be employed reverse engineering, its mostly brain work
[18:36:34] <archivist> tools help, but then they need to be tools for the job in hand
[18:36:53] <archivist> if they dont exist, make them
[18:37:24] <GammaX> Well heres an example... If I wanted to figure out the security on an xbox system... What tools would be used?
[18:37:41] <archivist> google
[18:38:32] <archivist> and there is no talk of any illegal work on #freenode
[18:39:29] <GammaX> Not for illegal work I promise.
[19:03:53] <roh> archivist be careful what you call illegal. reverse-engineering is explicitely allowed here within certain boundaries
[19:04:02] <archivist> I know
[19:04:22] <archivist> I did it as a job and for a court case
[19:13:22] <Xteven> for a court case ?
[19:13:24] <Xteven> interesting
[19:14:50] <archivist> yup, had to reverse engineer a database application for that
[19:45:38] <Xteven> cool
[19:49:23] <archivist> some of the thought process is equally applicable to making a part for a 1700/1800's antique watch... "how would they have done this"
[19:50:03] <jymm> hire some bastard for $0.50/week to make it for them?
[19:50:58] <archivist> * archivist accepts the job as 50c is a raise
[19:51:11] <jymm> a WEEK, not an hour
[19:51:35] <archivist> Im out of work end of next month
[19:51:47] <Xteven> hardly covers the electricity bill ;)
[19:52:06] <jymm> puch, that bites. Soorry to hear that. mass layoffs? closure?
[19:52:32] <archivist> closing this place
[19:53:04] <jymm> well, anything you can get from the place really cheap and sell for a profit?
[19:53:57] <archivist> most is too old to make much of
[19:54:22] <jymm> ah
[19:54:39] <archivist> lathe and drill and at least one hobbing machine will follow me home
[19:54:45] <archivist> http://www.archivist.info/cnc/works2008/
[19:54:56] <jymm> is there anything they have that you might be ab;e to revamp/remarket in a new/different way?
[19:55:42] <archivist> hardly
[19:55:42] <Xteven> looks like some nice equipment
[19:55:57] <archivist> some is
[19:56:08] <jymm> like buy a pntent/project off of them
[19:56:16] <archivist> schaublin 120 is for me
[19:56:52] <archivist> patent!!!!!!!!!!!! you have to be joking, this is a clockmakers
[19:57:10] <jymm> archivist: Dude, you REALLY need to get a scanner... you have way too many books
[19:57:48] <archivist> I have a scanner, its damned hard work
[19:57:49] <Xteven> books?
[19:58:10] <Xteven> what kind of books ?
[19:58:16] <jymm> archivist: go find out how all the book warez ppl do it.
[19:58:28] <archivist> Xteven, allsorts http://www.collection.archivist.info/
[19:59:11] <archivist> I do earn a tiny amount off the manuals I have
[19:59:47] <Xteven> ah, you scan manuals ?
[19:59:49] <SWPadnos> damn. there is actually something I could use from mozmck
[20:00:32] <SWPadnos> mozmck, if you're still here, I need a lift cylinder for a Johnson model J bandsaw
[20:00:40] <Xteven> hmm
[20:00:43] <archivist> Xteven, yes, on request, donation is nice for the trouble
[20:00:48] <Xteven> cool
[20:01:00] <Xteven> I found that, if I need a book, I should first check gigapedia.com
[20:02:10] <Xteven> they have about 310000 books
[20:02:15] <Xteven> but need to register
[20:55:03] <twice2> hi all, i was using freenx client for running emc remotely but now axis will not start over nx http://pastebin.ca/1522238
[20:58:29] <twice2> all i could find was a guy installed emc on gentoo and did not have lucidia font install, i can't find it on my system either but axis run locally fine
[21:07:24] <ilya_> you probably can install it
[21:15:06] <twice2> nah, run ok local, i think i've been rooted :/
[21:16:29] <ilya_> twice2: can it launch the axis -> lathe.ini? If not, use python-xml or similar
[21:17:11] <SWPadnos> are you running the nx client on Windows or Linux?
[21:21:54] <twice2> nxclient on xp
[21:22:36] <SWPadnos> one thing google found for me made me think that the client machine needs to have the correct font(s) installed
[21:22:40] <SWPadnos> but I could be wrong
[21:25:50] <jymm> I still don't quite understnad what FreeNX or NX is. a hypervisor?
[21:26:18] <toastatwork> no, they're X tunneling protocols
[21:26:22] <twice2> humm, it was working fine yesterday
[21:27:04] <toastatwork> it sits between the X client and server, and cuts out a major portion of the repetitive traffic, as well as compressing what's left
[21:27:20] <toastatwork> then you can forward the rest over ssh
[21:27:35] <toastatwork> and undo it on the other end - including reproducing what "repetative" stuff should be there
[21:28:17] <jymm> so it's a glorified RDP?
[21:28:26] <toastatwork> faster than rdp
[21:28:32] <toastatwork> it can tunnel rdp as well, iirc
[21:28:55] <jymm> so can ssh -x =)
[21:29:09] <toastatwork> again, the reason NX exists is because it's way faster than ssh -x
[21:29:11] <toastatwork> and rdp
[21:29:13] <jymm> err -D
[21:29:13] <toastatwork> and anything else
[21:29:20] <jymm> wait, I ca't remember
[21:29:22] <jymm> lol
[21:29:34] <toastatwork> ssh compression is still awfully slow
[21:29:47] <toastatwork> nx can be used over the internet fairly well, i've used both before
[21:29:56] <jymm> in the clear?
[21:30:02] <toastatwork> no, over ssh
[21:30:19] <jymm> ok, cuase i do do in the clear for much of anything
[21:30:25] <jymm> dont do
[21:30:34] <toastatwork> you can run nx in the clear if you really wanted to, i don't see why anyone would
[21:31:02] <jymm> I mean i DONT do anything in the clear. Not even http, only https
[21:31:19] <jymm> I dont have http even enabled on my server
[21:32:32] <jymm> So, wy not vnc?
[21:32:51] <ilya_> are there concepts like rough and clean allowance?
[21:33:00] <toastatwork> vnc is slow
[21:33:15] <toastatwork> the only reason nx exists is all the other options are slower than it is
[21:33:23] <toastatwork> it does nothing unique, it just does it fast
[21:33:26] <jymm> Well, there's uvnc, and the other variants
[21:33:32] <toastatwork> and they're all slow?
[21:33:33] <ilya_> I want to translate smth for wiki
[21:33:35] <twice2> emc will not launch over vnc either here
[21:34:44] <twice2> axis won't anyway, it dumps glx errors
[21:34:49] <toastatwork> ilya_ what?
[21:35:03] <jymm> I'm not sure why you would want to remote into emc anyway, not remotely anyway.
[21:35:15] <jymm> as in off the lan
[21:35:26] <twice2> testing code
[21:35:29] <ilya_> "rough allowance" = ? Is there such a mechanical term?
[21:35:42] <jymm> You cna run emc off a thumbstick
[21:35:56] <toastatwork> ilya_ there is when cutting a large block
[21:36:05] <toastatwork> where you cut all features +.050" or whatever
[21:36:11] <ilya_> i'm trying to create an article about the turning, probably for wiki.linuxcnc.org
[21:36:12] <toastatwork> and that is the roughing allowance
[21:36:43] <toastatwork> finishing allowance and roughing allowance are usually synonyms
[21:36:52] <toastatwork> but in g70-g74 in turning, they have specific meanings
[21:36:55] <ilya_> toastatwork: and can I say a "clean allowance", meaning the finishing?
[21:37:06] <toastatwork> clean allowance doesn't make any sense to me.
[21:37:27] <ilya_> toastatwork: OK, thanks
[21:37:27] <toastatwork> i' d use finishing allowance, everywhere any sort of allowance appears.
[21:37:53] <ilya_> in turning theory these two terms are differentiated
[21:38:03] <toastatwork> yes, they are.
[21:39:03] <ilya_> cutting depth are being chosen to have less cuts, and cutting depth depends on a rigidity
[21:39:22] <toastatwork> i think you're confusing terms.
[21:40:19] <ilya_> and final, "clean allowance", can be cut at a very last time with a less depth, feedrate and higher cutting speed
[21:40:43] <toastatwork> "clean allowance" isn't a term.
[21:40:53] <toastatwork> i would avoid using it since it's nonsensical.
[21:41:07] <ilya_> toastatwork: then what is a suitable term in that context?
[21:41:12] <toastatwork> finishing allowance.
[21:41:29] <ilya_> toastatwork: OK.
[21:41:40] <toastatwork> roughing allowance is material left, above and beyond, the finishing allowance.
[21:41:47] <ilya_> I'm trying to create a table for construction steel and a cast iron
[21:41:57] <toastatwork> for instance, we cut machine carriages out of a large block, and there's two seperate roughing operations.
[21:42:02] <ilya_> for lathes, for drilling, and for side cuts
[21:42:06] <toastatwork> we rough it out the first time, then send it to heat treat
[21:42:12] <toastatwork> that is the roughing allowance.
[21:42:33] <ilya_> and finishing allowance is a final one, right?
[21:42:38] <toastatwork> correct
[21:43:29] <ilya_> OK. I actually haven't thought about this all yet.
[21:44:07] <archivist> from rough cast one has to machine the holding points and references, and get the skin off
[21:44:33] <ilya_> toastatwork: heat treat for normalization or hardening of the metal?
[21:44:46] <archivist> stress relieve
[21:44:49] <toastatwork> normalizing of the metal
[21:44:59] <toastatwork> after you machine that much stuff off hot rolled plate
[21:45:04] <toastatwork> it curls up like a potato chip
[21:45:26] <ilya_> oh... poor ilya_ have to read also another book about metals...
[21:45:35] <toastatwork> if you were to start taking cuts right then, every cut would make it curl further
[21:45:41] <toastatwork> and you'd have a bear of a time getting it flat
[21:46:02] <archivist> turning rolled bar is the same
[21:46:05] <toastatwork> so you send it out to heat treat and then it doesn't go anywhere when you start straightening the part out
[21:46:08] <ilya_> toastatwork: I know it can be done to disks for disk brakes before the cutting off the final allowance
[21:46:14] <archivist> keeps moving
[21:46:20] <ilya_> *finishing allowance
[21:47:51] <ilya_> kanzure: have you found a book about with turning and drilling in your native language yet?
[21:48:04] <kanzure> I wasn't looking for one.
[21:48:36] <ilya_> I see the table for drilling contain feedrates depended on a drills' diameters.
[21:48:54] <ilya_> kanzure: you probably should try to find one.
[21:48:56] <toastatwork> ilya_ that is for chip clearance.
[21:49:04] <toastatwork> a bigger drill has more space in the flutes for chips
[21:49:54] <ilya_> toastatwork: so, the feedrate dramatically enlarges with the diameter's size?
[21:50:04] <twice2> SWPadnos: you were correct, missing font on client side, thanks
[21:50:08] <SWPadnos> sure
[21:50:16] <toastatwork> ilya_ not really, it kind of tapers off
[21:50:28] <toastatwork> like if you are feeding a 2" drill vs. a 4" drill
[21:50:29] <SWPadnos> until you get to cutters with more flutes
[21:50:37] <toastatwork> the load per flute is not going to change substantially
[21:50:45] <toastatwork> but from like, a .25" to a .5" drill
[21:50:49] <SWPadnos> (but not necessarily for drilling)
[21:50:52] <toastatwork> or from .125 to .25"
[21:51:18] <ilya_> oh, OK
[21:51:24] <toastatwork> like a .125 drill i may only feed like, .001-.003
[21:51:34] <toastatwork> but a .5 drill i can do like, .005" to .007
[21:52:07] <toastatwork> and a big drill will top out at like, .020" or so
[21:52:17] <toastatwork> provided you have the machine horsepower
[21:52:26] <toastatwork> to drive a drill that size at any appriciable rpm
[21:53:20] <ilya_> yeah, there's a formula, which let to calculate a necessary power using the cutting speed.
[21:53:31] <SWPadnos> other way around
[21:53:40] <SWPadnos> you limit the cutting speed based on the available power
[21:53:48] <toastatwork> either way is correct
[21:54:11] <SWPadnos> well, sure - you can calculate that you need more power than you have based on cutting speed :)
[21:54:12] <toastatwork> depending on what you are doing, you may need to know either one from the other.
[21:54:27] <archivist> using available power would smash the drills
[21:54:39] <ilya_> but i think most of the manufacturers have adjusted their machines in power for maximal sizes of the blanks
[21:55:02] <toastatwork> ilya_: what?
[21:55:10] <SWPadnos> heh, that's what I was thinking
[21:55:19] <ilya_> SWPadnos: "you limit the cutting speed based on the available power" Is this phra
[21:55:26] <ilya_> e somewhere at the website?
[21:55:36] <toastatwork> ilya_ almost nobody uses the full machine power
[21:55:45] <ilya_> toastatwork: really?
[21:55:46] <jymm> http://ReadSWPadnosMind.com/
[21:55:48] <toastatwork> really
[21:56:07] <toastatwork> most machines are not set up to be able to handle the forces generated with a topped out motor in something like drilling
[21:56:28] <archivist> machine slows down and stalls
[21:56:29] <ilya_> jymm: >:o there's no such webpage!!!
[21:56:40] <SWPadnos> *if* you determine a cutting speed and feed (based on material, cutter type, coolant, etc), and you see that you need more power than your machine can output, you reduce the cut depth or do something to reduce the necessary spindle power
[21:57:14] <SWPadnos> but as toastatwork mentioned, it's pretty rare to be limited by the spindle power
[21:58:10] <jymm> ilya_: Sure there is, but it's rated R, so you just dont have access to it is all
[21:58:17] <ilya_> and what about lathes? how about to cut 8 mm depth at g95 f0.5 with 30 m/min for usual construction steel with Gtmp=750 MPa on a sherline 4100?
[21:59:03] <toastatwork> steel requires about 1.5 hp per cubic inch per minute
[21:59:16] <toastatwork> the real equation is much longer, but it's a good ballpark figure
[21:59:24] <ilya_> jymm: yeah, he probably imagines very young machines, those which haven't even been packed ever yet, and actually stay at a manufacturer :)
[21:59:27] <toastatwork> so figure out the volume per minute you're removing
[22:00:21] <ilya_> toastatwork: you even know an equation? I have only found stupid tables...
[22:00:34] <toastatwork> machinery's handbook has it
[22:01:05] <ilya_> toastatwork: What if i come and see some used machine without a handbook?
[22:01:17] <toastatwork> no, THE machinery's handbook
[22:01:19] <jymm> You should see SWPadnos when he drives by a motion control store. It's just so perverted. fonding the ballscrews, rubbing againest the rails, etc.
[22:01:21] <toastatwork> not A machinery handbook
[22:02:41] <jymm> Then SWPadnos sqeals like a lil girl when he gets to the grease and lube isle.
[22:03:00] <ilya_> Oh that SWPadnos!..
[22:03:17] <SWPadnos> I am a little girl. don't try to fool ilya_
[22:03:27] <jymm> rotf
[22:03:50] <jymm> SWPadnos: Well, at least that explains the pink Barbie huse, car, etc
[22:04:11] <ilya_> Anyway, starting from low feedrates seems to be a good idea
[22:04:30] <toastatwork> ilya_ yes, generally speaking, turning should start at around .005"/rev
[22:05:32] <ilya_> toastatwork: yeah...
[22:06:09] <toastatwork> in cnc especially, the depth of cut should remain somewhat shallow and the feed rate enormous
[22:06:25] <ilya_> * ilya_ will see some non-translated ATHF next half-an-hour
[22:07:34] <ilya_> toastatwork: because of lack of rigidity due to portable design of the machines itself, right?
[22:08:06] <toastatwork> no, because they sacrifice bearing capacity for speed
[22:08:11] <toastatwork> i'm not talking about sherlines and whatnot
[22:08:48] <toastatwork> a machine dressed up like an engine lathe will be better with deeper depths of cut
[22:08:55] <toastatwork> and slower speeds and feed rates
[22:09:00] <archivist> ilya_, sherlines and other toys dont rate in proper calculations
[22:09:18] <archivist> just not strong enough
[22:09:26] <ilya_> Ok
[22:09:59] <toastatwork> a big machine with linear guide rails can't handle much force
[22:10:06] <toastatwork> but it can move really fast
[22:10:20] <toastatwork> also the carbide tools they use are somewhat brittle and work the same wa
[22:10:20] <toastatwork> y
[22:10:26] <toastatwork> huge heat capacity, very little shock
[22:10:27] <ilya_> that;s the way!
[22:11:11] <toastatwork> yes, that's the 700,000 USD way
[22:11:18] <toastatwork> i don't have that much money though
[22:11:25] <ilya_> and it actually doesn't follow the "power" equation, too, right?
[22:11:32] <toastatwork> no, it does
[22:11:36] <SWPadnos> everything does
[22:11:42] <toastatwork> it's just how it gets to that power
[22:11:49] <ilya_> what is 700'000 USD?
[22:11:59] <archivist> a lot of money
[22:12:02] <toastatwork> ilya_ the price of a modern, high end machine tool
[22:12:34] <ilya_> toastatwork: therefore, the power will be spend to the feedrate, not to the cutting depth?
[22:12:40] <toastatwork> ilya_ correct
[22:12:46] <ilya_> OK
[22:12:52] <jymm> ilya_: 2 houses in most of the US, or 0.5 house in San Francisco Bay Area.
[22:12:53] <toastatwork> the fast machine will spin the spindle at a bloody fast rate, and feed appropriately
[22:13:09] <ilya_> so, i shouldn't bother with these formulas due to common sense?
[22:13:27] <toastatwork> you shouldn't bother with the formulas because you're going to be limited by things you can't model with simple equations
[22:13:40] <ilya_> jymm: what kind of machine can cost so much?
[22:14:00] <SWPadnos> there are machines that are more than a million dollars
[22:14:02] <toastatwork> ilya_ an Okuma, Kitamura, Mori Seiki, Mazaak, Nakamura-Tome
[22:14:10] <toastatwork> all of those manufacturers make machines more than that
[22:14:26] <ilya_> How much can i pay for 1000x500x200 XYZ-machine with rotating table (4th axis)?
[22:14:41] <toastatwork> uh, depends on how good you want it to be
[22:14:52] <toastatwork> and what it's really for
[22:14:52] <ilya_> toastatwork: slow but reliable
[22:15:08] <toastatwork> do you want true four axis or three plus one
[22:15:13] <SWPadnos> a single good servo can cost more than an entire machine like a Sherline
[22:15:19] <ilya_> steel sheets 5 mm thick and some wooden stuff
[22:15:35] <ilya_> "three +1"
[22:15:39] <ilya_> as at sherline
[22:16:02] <toastatwork> ilya_ unless you're looking a horizontal machining centers, you're not going to find that "stock" on a vertical
[22:16:05] <ilya_> thought about 4-5 K in USD w/o shipping
[22:16:16] <toastatwork> you'll have to buy a used mill, which is 5-10k usd
[22:16:24] <toastatwork> adn then find a used rotary table
[22:16:25] <ilya_> oh...
[22:16:30] <ilya_> ok
[22:16:45] <toastatwork> if you go with a horizontal, you can probably find one for the same price
[22:16:48] <jymm> ilya_: One of these with the options like tool changer, tooling, etc http://www.haascnc.com/details.asp?ID=VF-6/40TR&webid=VMC_5AXISTRUNNION#5AXISTreeModel
[22:16:50] <toastatwork> but the tooling is more expensive and you need more of it
[22:16:57] <ilya_> but wiyhout a rotary table, for those designated dimensions?
[22:17:02] <ilya_> OK
[22:17:16] <toastatwork> horizontals are a bit harder to work with if you are not used to machining.
[22:17:28] <toastatwork> they have more balls and tend not to stop when you screw up
[22:17:38] <skunkworks_> but chip removal is a ton better
[22:17:43] <archivist> spit bits out
[22:17:46] <toastatwork> chip removal is faaaabulous
[22:17:59] <toastatwork> power is fabulous, rigidity is fabulous
[22:18:16] <jymm> SWPadnos: http://www.haascnc.com/hfo/HFO-Union%20City-CA/default.asp#custserv
[22:18:18] <toastatwork> lifting a 100 lb angle plate to put a vice on it, a little bit dicy
[22:19:22] <SWPadnos> jymm, cool
[22:19:36] <ilya_> I have almost downloaded about 80 % of that page
[22:19:47] <jymm> SWPadnos: we can bring our drooling bibs and head over there
[22:19:57] <archivist> should this old 1940's horizontal follow me home
[22:19:57] <SWPadnos> next time I'm in town :)
[22:20:01] <archivist> http://www.archivist.info/cnc/works2008/P1010225.JPG
[22:20:28] <toastatwork> hahaha
[22:20:47] <toastatwork> there's a cnc horizontal at work, from like the 1970s, that i'd take home
[22:21:06] <toastatwork> 20x25x20, 4th axis, 20 hp, geared head, 4000 rpm
[22:21:15] <toastatwork> 20 tool magazine
[22:21:26] <toastatwork> mitsubishi control
[22:21:48] <toastatwork> i hope if they ever decide to get rid of it I've got a place to put it
[22:21:51] <toastatwork> i'd totally buy it
[22:23:34] <archivist> I shove a slitting saw on it and slice lumps with the one here
[22:24:36] <toastatwork> lol
[22:24:45] <toastatwork> overarm supports ++
[22:25:19] <archivist> only has a 30 taper on its arbour
[22:26:12] <toastatwork> haha cute
[22:26:25] <toastatwork> fifty taper =)
[22:27:45] <ilya1> finally online!
[22:28:05] <toastatwork> nothing like a 25 lb CAT-50 holder
[22:28:18] <toastatwork> with a itty bitty .125 endmill in it
[22:30:04] <ilya1> I just know electric motors produce maximal torque at a zero rpm, and at a high speed, there can be a lack of torque
[22:30:25] <toastatwork> torque doesn't matter to high speed machines
[22:30:36] <ilya1> yeah
[22:30:49] <toastatwork> how much work are you doing with 500000000 ft-lbs of torque at 0 rpm
[22:30:53] <toastatwork> (not much)
[22:31:34] <archivist> blowing fuses
[22:33:16] <ilya1> ilya1 is now known as ilya__
[22:33:52] <ilya__> toastatwork: there's something at 0.000000001 rpm though
[22:34:05] <toastatwork> yeah, but you clearly said stall speed
[22:34:09] <SWPadnos> torque is very important up to a point, after that it's power
[22:34:22] <SWPadnos> since torque is proportional to accel
[22:34:32] <toastatwork> indeed
[22:34:38] <ilya__> archivist: blowing fuses and train imagination, teasing prospects
[22:35:47] <ilya__> and i should add the accelleration of spindle, say, to the parameters?
[22:36:22] <toastatwork> why would you care how fast a spindle gets to speed on a hobby machine
[22:36:44] <toastatwork> it takes about 5-7 seconds for our Mori Seiki mill to get to 4000 rpm
[22:36:51] <ilya__> how can i search for suitable parameters in internet? Any special words or websites (as forums)?
[22:36:57] <toastatwork> but it has to spin like, 200-300 lbs worth of crap
[22:37:29] <toastatwork> ilya__ what do you mean by suitable parameters
[22:37:47] <ilya__> toastatwork: on a lathe, i want to program g21 g95 f0.1
[22:38:03] <toastatwork> ...right?
[22:38:09] <ilya__> and it changes rpm relatively very quickly
[22:38:27] <toastatwork> lathes have an enormous amount of mass to spin up
[22:38:37] <toastatwork> i would not really look at the accel/decel
[22:38:53] <ilya__> toastatwork: i mean, how can i find the machine to buy? Is there a list of manufacturers?
[22:39:05] <toastatwork> uh, unless you are looking at spending 50k+
[22:39:09] <toastatwork> don't look at new machines
[22:39:14] <toastatwork> look at ebay, machinetools.com
[22:39:23] <toastatwork> local auctions, especially
[22:39:27] <ilya__> ok
[22:39:37] <cradek> someone on emc-users just mentioned a nice sounding lathe available
[22:39:49] <cradek> asking around is a good idea
[22:39:55] <ilya__> ok
[22:40:20] <toastatwork> here are some good brands
[22:40:27] <toastatwork> this list isn't exclusive, but it's pretty decent
[22:40:56] <toastatwork> okuma (the LS15 is popular, and small-ish), nakamura tome, mazak, mori seiki
[22:41:02] <toastatwork> all make excellent cnc lathes
[22:41:16] <cradek> hardinge
[22:41:30] <toastatwork> hardinge makes good smaller lathes - i am not happy with our hardinge
[22:41:36] <toastatwork> in the "full cnc" size
[22:41:39] <cradek> ah
[22:42:04] <toastatwork> bought it new, it is now almost so worn as to be unusable
[22:42:18] <toastatwork> and we've got a used mori seiki lathe right next to it, from like the early early 80's
[22:42:42] <toastatwork> that still holds tolerance better than any of our other lathes
[22:44:02] <toastatwork> okuma and nakamura tome make smaller machines
[22:44:25] <toastatwork> okuma especially is extremely popular as a higher end brand and they've got a lot of good used gear, compared to the other high end guys
[22:44:30] <toastatwork> mazak too
[22:44:56] <toastatwork> note that okuma-howa is NOT the same, and by comparison makes absolute ass instead of a proper machine tool
[22:46:25] <ilya__> * ilya__ saves weird names of the brands in a secret place. Some people here can find these names **ambiguous**
[22:46:27] <toastatwork> if dmess comes on, he'll have a much longer list of good lathes
[22:46:51] <toastatwork> on practical machinist (website), search in the general and general new forums for old threads on good CNC brands
[22:46:55] <toastatwork> also in the CNC forum
[22:47:12] <ilya__> OK
[22:47:36] <archivist> more names than you can shake a fist at http://www.lathes.co.uk/
[22:47:45] <ilya__> Next time using some good acess to Internets, I will see these machines
[22:47:54] <toastatwork> ooh ooh wait, also Leblond
[22:47:57] <toastatwork> and Makino
[22:48:07] <toastatwork> (same company, different names)
[22:48:41] <toastatwork> unfortunately with lathes.co.uk, you can't quite trust them - a lot of companies that made really friggin' awesome manual lathes totally dropped the cnc ball
[22:49:18] <toastatwork> i.e. hardinge, in my opinion.
[22:49:28] <toastatwork> and i think Monarch did, too, but i've heard mixed things
[22:49:36] <toastatwork> Leblond got even better
[22:50:29] <ilya__> all this needs to be read from these websites, OK
[22:51:26] <toastatwork> ?
[22:51:27] <archivist> or your local library
[22:52:08] <ilya__> no, there's no local library, only vodka and bears
[22:53:18] <ilya__> So, dependig on a rigidity of the machine, its manufacturer offers some tables or formulae for turning and milling, which can be found in the Machinery's Handbook?
[22:54:04] <toastatwork> ilya__ no
[22:54:09] <toastatwork> the machinery's handbook is a book
[22:54:14] <toastatwork> like the oxford english dictionary
[22:54:17] <toastatwork> or War and Peace
[22:54:20] <ilya__> toastatwork: then how do I set it?
[22:54:28] <toastatwork> what do you mean
[22:54:39] <toastatwork> you have to LEARN to set it
[22:54:44] <toastatwork> by breaking endmills and ruining parts
[22:54:48] <ilya__> Ok
[22:55:02] <toastatwork> machining is not formulaic, unfortunately.
[22:55:10] <toastatwork> not in the sense i think you're asking for
[22:55:12] <ilya__> i have no right to break something. the machine isn't mine. :)
[22:55:22] <toastatwork> lol
[22:55:29] <toastatwork> well, you're going to.
[22:57:23] <ilya__> This scientific book I have has so many coefficients...
[22:57:47] <ilya__> they seem have no use for usual aluminum frames of machines
[22:58:01] <toastatwork> that's because aluminum frames are useless for production machines
[22:58:32] <ilya__> theya re probably for wood and thin aluminum sheets
[22:58:45] <ilya__> not even for a rubber
[23:00:40] <ilya__> "machining is not formulaic"
[23:01:59] <toastatwork> aye?
[23:02:32] <ilya__> no, i just say it to myself
[23:02:37] <toastatwork> hahaha.
[23:04:38] <ilya__> slow feedrates and little depth's seem saving the machine's parts.
[23:05:23] <toastatwork> you're going to accidentally rapid the machine down into the part.
[23:05:31] <toastatwork> or something similar.
[23:05:45] <toastatwork> it doesn't matter how hard you machine, as long as you didn't make any mistakes.
[23:06:06] <ilya__> Ok, will see.
[23:06:21] <toastatwork> not saying you'll do it right away, mind you
[23:06:34] <toastatwork> but you will ruin something eventually, it is part of machining.
[23:07:35] <ilya__> I'm looking into scientific book for students... these tables and coefficients... they seem to be only partially acceptable, only some low range of them
[23:07:44] <ilya__> OK
[23:07:59] <toastatwork> what are you looking for, exactly
[23:08:59] <ilya__> I want to copy /sim/axis_mm and create virtual sherline 4000. If nothing will be broken in a simulation mode, i will proude of myself! :)
[23:09:55] <ilya__> toastatwork: it's morning. I propobably should go sleep and imaging that ass from TV film...
[23:11:14] <ilya__> Want to get experience, determine spindle speed for virtual machine, turn some detail... whole lot of work...
[23:12:38] <toastatwork> you might as well just be guessing
[23:13:47] <ilya__> what if at 2500 rpm on lathe, at some point on an X-coordinate, at, say, 20 m/min the spindle stops due to lack of a torque...
[23:14:01] <toastatwork> then it stops
[23:14:07] <toastatwork> you won't be able to tell that
[23:14:13] <toastatwork> with what you're trying to do
[23:14:17] <ilya__> Will the EMC2 program default to a lover speed?
[23:14:20] <toastatwork> no.
[23:14:47] <toastatwork> listen, i know you want this to be a simple issue of picking the right numbers
[23:15:04] <ilya__> ...but it never happens?
[23:15:06] <toastatwork> but machining is 95% experience
[23:15:19] <toastatwork> so what you are doing right now is just screwing around with the almost meaningless 5% by comparison
[23:15:28] <archivist> get on a machine and learn
[23:15:33] <ilya__> OK, it's kinfd of what i wanted to hear from someone.
[23:15:42] <ilya__> archivist: ok.
[23:15:59] <toastatwork> if there's a local community college, some of them offer a machining class with manual machines
[23:16:00] <archivist> I said the other day go and get classes
[23:16:03] <toastatwork> which are a GREAT precursor
[23:16:04] <toastatwork> to cnc
[23:16:39] <ilya__> * ilya__ changes his underware, says "Save me a clipper: I'll be back for a dinner!" and goes somewhere outside the scene.
[23:17:49] <ilya__> archivist: i see a table for those huge, made of a cast metal, very rigid manual machines.
[23:19:59] <ilya__> "Choosing small depths from these table seems to be a good start -- but using these advices on some machines, tools can be broken, anyway".
[23:25:17] <ilya__> 6 coefficients to be multiplied altogether with a value of those tables! Whole lotta science!
[23:26:52] <ilya__> 3 coefficients depend on a cutter's size and form, 3 other depend on a blank's parameters.
[23:27:05] <archivist> sometimes you have to keep cutting load down to stop the part deflecting
[23:27:13] <ilya__> vary from 0.66 to1.26
[23:27:35] <ilya__> archivist: thanks, these are words from experience!
[23:27:38] <toastatwork> ilya__ you don't need those tables.
[23:27:52] <ilya__> toastatwork: ok, how about
[23:27:54] <toastatwork> the only purpose they serve is to tell someone who knows what they're doing what others have done
[23:28:10] <toastatwork> stop reading those books, you're going to have to unlearn all of it
[23:28:30] <toastatwork> because you don't have the experience to understand what those numbers really represent in a concrete sense
[23:28:39] <archivist> dont think he has a book yet
[23:28:52] <toastatwork> s/books/tables/g
[23:29:05] <ilya__> 1 mm depth with g95 f0.1 at 110 m/min for steel and 50 m/min for cast iron for finishing?
[23:29:32] <ilya__> toastatwork: come on, I'm graduated from university.
[23:29:35] <archivist> I use the right much for the iron I have
[23:29:39] <ilya__> in mechanincs
[23:29:47] <toastatwork> ilya__ university has NOTHING to do with machining
[23:29:51] <toastatwork> i am in school for mechanical engineering
[23:29:57] <toastatwork> and i am also employed as a full time machininst
[23:30:00] <ilya__> toastatwork: nope, we had courses.
[23:30:17] <toastatwork> okay, do what you want.
[23:30:25] <ilya__> no!
[23:30:34] <ilya__> it was a question!
[23:31:57] <archivist> for cast iron I adjust the machine till it cuts nice
[23:32:04] <toastatwork> without specific knowledge of what kind of part you are cutting, and the exact machine you are cutting on
[23:32:08] <archivist> no numbers are used
[23:32:16] <toastatwork> those numbers are as useless as a machine tool without power
[23:32:31] <ilya__> "1 mm depth with g95 f0.1 at 110 m/min for steel and 50 m/min for cast iron for a finishing" and "3 mm depth with g95 f0.4 at 44 m/min for steel and 30 m/min for cast iron for a rough finishing" -- and speed is multiplied by those coefficients, which vary it from 0.6 to 1.2. How about this as some starting test?
[23:33:17] <ilya__> Ok, you make sence to Ilya-few-day-back-in-time__
[23:33:47] <toastatwork> those numbers are huge for a tiny machine.
[23:33:48] <ilya__> * ilya__ slice bread and heats it up in a microwave owen.
[23:33:53] <ilya__> *slices
[23:33:55] <toastatwork> the depths, especially
[23:33:58] <ilya__> OK
[23:34:20] <toastatwork> and the speeds are either too high, or too low
[23:34:25] <toastatwork> depending on the tooling material.
[23:35:00] <ilya__> these numbers are for those huge manual lathes nade of the ingot steel
[23:35:14] <toastatwork> so why are you looking at them
[23:35:16] <ilya__> it's a cutting steel
[23:35:47] <toastatwork> why are you doing this to yourself, you're now filling your head with nonsense you have no hope of making sense of, and you're going to have to unlearn it when you actually get in front of a machine
[23:35:51] <ilya__> toastatwork: i have illegally downloaded books, and try to browse its content
[23:36:05] <ilya__> Ok.
[23:37:03] <ilya__> So, i should say to my potential emloyer that I will work for a reliable result while trying to gradually enlarge the speeds?
[23:37:22] <archivist> go as a learner
[23:37:41] <archivist> a trainee
[23:37:43] <toastatwork> you will never get hired right off the bat as a machinist. you have to go with what you have - which is zero experience.
[23:38:06] <toastatwork> which means, if you get a job in a machine shop, you will be pressing the start button and reloading the machine
[23:38:06] <ilya__> Ok. you guys help me!
[23:38:28] <archivist> we cannot help at a distance, go and get local training
[23:38:28] <toastatwork> with WHAT?
[23:38:44] <toastatwork> you cannot do what you want to do, sorry.
[23:38:53] <toastatwork> start at the beginning, or don't start at all.
[23:39:10] <toastatwork> nobody will put someone in charge of an expensive machine tool without lots of experience.
[23:39:29] <ilya__> toastatwork: tjhey wanted to put me
[23:39:32] <ilya__> already
[23:39:39] <toastatwork> then you're in for a huge shock.
[23:39:41] <ilya__> i just have a time to practice
[23:39:49] <ilya__> no.
[23:39:54] <toastatwork> i GOT practice, i got to program CNC, I got manual machining experience.
[23:40:02] <toastatwork> for two and a half years in school
[23:40:07] <ilya__> i want to start from small numbers. What numbers can it be?
[23:40:14] <toastatwork> and guess what - i'm still not able to do what you think you're going to be able to do
[23:40:18] <frallzor> no experience + huge machine = big accident =)
[23:40:21] <ilya__> toastatwork: i'm trying the same.
[23:40:23] <toastatwork> two years of machine shop class
[23:40:28] <toastatwork> and three years of machining experience
[23:40:34] <toastatwork> and I still need help in a production shop.
[23:40:49] <ilya__> "1 mm depth with g95 f0.1 at 110 m/min for steel and 50 m/min for cast iron for a finishing" and "3 mm depth with g95 f0.4 at 44 m/min for steel and 30 m/min for cast iron for a rough finishing" -- and speed is multiplied by those coefficients, which vary it from 0.6 to 1.2. How about this as some starting test?
[23:40:54] <toastatwork> no.
[23:40:58] <toastatwork> i'm not helping you with numbers anymore.
[23:41:04] <ilya__> why?
[23:41:05] <toastatwork> because you're going to hurt yourself or the machine.
[23:41:05] <ilya__> ok
[23:41:08] <toastatwork> and you can't see it.
[23:41:17] <toastatwork> because you have no concept of what you don't know yet.
[23:41:34] <frallzor> toastatwork you can help me instead =D
[23:41:40] <toastatwork> lol
[23:41:50] <frallzor> designwise, simple yet nice Z axis =)
[23:42:00] <ilya__> i need a sample gcode which will work on a toy-machine
[23:42:15] <frallzor> if you cant code it yourself it wont do you no good
[23:42:20] <ilya__> i need to program a lathe
[23:42:25] <toastatwork> ilya__ also, emc works nothing like the gcode on a commerical machine except in the basic sense
[23:42:32] <toastatwork> that it has g0/g1/etc
[23:42:42] <ilya__> what do ou mean
[23:43:09] <toastatwork> If you sit down on a commerical control, you will not know how to work it.
[23:43:17] <toastatwork> even if you can get EMC to do nearly everything it can do.
[23:43:41] <toastatwork> the g-codes are only passingly similar, and for lathes, are very different
[23:43:51] <toastatwork> the control interface itself has NOTHING in common
[23:43:57] <ilya__> commercial control? Doesn't it have a manual mode?
[23:44:11] <frallzor> =)
[23:44:21] <ilya__> i know, lathes are in XZ plane
[23:44:23] <toastatwork> no, commerical cnc machines expect you to know what you are doing
[23:44:31] <toastatwork> and be able to get them to move in g-code.
[23:45:19] <toastatwork> commercial controls use a completely different set of G-code for lathes
[23:45:30] <frallzor> why would a person hire a non-experienced operator?
[23:45:50] <toastatwork> for instance, to home a machine and change a tool on an emc-type control is like a mill tool change
[23:46:05] <toastatwork> g91 g28 z0; t2 m6;
[23:46:09] <toastatwork> on a lathe, it's this
[23:46:12] <ilya__> i plan to program an axis for my bicycle on a sherline lathe starting from dxf to see how it describe some entities, then change it to XZ plane, with rough finishing && finishing and so on.
[23:46:15] <toastatwork> g28 u0 w0; t0202
[23:47:01] <ilya__> frallzor: there's no much machines at this part of russia yet, but i know english and can learn things
[23:47:11] <ilya__> *many machines
[23:47:34] <toastatwork> also many lathes don't have work offsets like EMC does
[23:47:38] <frallzor> and they want to risk the few machines they have and hire someone that cant use them properly?
[23:48:19] <ilya__> i wanted to turn 1 mm at once with that spee di wrote, as a starting example to see what can happen, then learn from experience.
[23:48:50] <ilya__> frallzor: there probably no risk if you have a time to learn.
[23:49:07] <toastatwork> ilya__ there's a huge amount of risk, sorry
[23:49:15] <toastatwork> this is part of the thing where you don't know what you don't know yet
[23:49:21] <frallzor> if there isnt someone on site to teach there is a huge risk yes =)
[23:49:29] <toastatwork> you cannot see why it would be dangerous because you've never had to do it before
[23:49:30] <ilya__> toastatwork: then we will not work with that machine and let it stay.
[23:49:56] <toastatwork> what?
[23:50:02] <toastatwork> you can't do cnc programming without risk
[23:50:06] <toastatwork> it is inherent in the task
[23:50:12] <toastatwork> especially for a new person, even under supervision
[23:50:58] <frallzor> just learn how to be the best manual machinist there is!
[23:51:11] <toastatwork> you will STILL crash a manual machine.
[23:51:16] <toastatwork> http://inv.automatics.com/machpict/000682/296703c.jpg
[23:51:21] <ilya__> i do it before, but on a huge manual machine made of ingot steel. the cutter was like 16x16 mm. that little speed couldn't be dangerous for that machine.
[23:51:42] <frallzor> well he can at least stop before something probably just flies into his head =)
[23:51:46] <toastatwork> and it is that attitude which makes you so dangerous
[23:51:49] <ilya__> toastatwork: should i reduce the spindle speed for a start?
[23:51:49] <toastatwork> "it can't be dangerous"
[23:52:15] <toastatwork> yes, you should
[23:52:19] <ilya__> toastatwork: imaging i'm creating a weapon for you country, and we all vs. aliens
[23:52:25] <ilya__> ok
[23:52:57] <ilya__> i will have done a perfect example.
[23:53:28] <ilya__> this gcode will stay at the NY museum of modern art!
[23:53:39] <toastatwork> i have crushed a 5" tube with .5" wall thickness at only 100 rpm
[23:53:45] <frallzor> "the gcode that killed siberia"
[23:53:52] <toastatwork> so again i say
[23:53:56] <toastatwork> it's dangerous at any speed
[23:54:00] <toastatwork> and at any time the machine is on.
[23:54:07] <ilya__> with words "They didn't believed it! toastatwork, forgive me, I did it!"
[23:54:14] <toastatwork> ilya__ keep on thinking that
[23:54:20] <toastatwork> you're like a kid who thinks they know everything right now
[23:54:38] <ilya__> * ilya__ puts on his sunglasses and goes make a dangerous thing
[23:54:40] <toastatwork> so do whatever you want.
[23:55:07] <ilya__> toastatwork: i will stay afar from the damn machine
[23:55:16] <toastatwork> god damnit, that's the only way you learn
[23:55:20] <toastatwork> is to USE the machine
[23:55:30] <toastatwork> but you're jumping in with all this bullshit you're trying to read from elsewhere
[23:55:30] <ilya__> toastatwork: what was the case? why have you crashed it?
[23:55:40] <toastatwork> because I picked the wrong tool blade.
[23:56:10] <toastatwork> and the small difference in edge geometry was enough to grab the part, and as the spindle turned, crushed it against the tool.
[23:56:14] <archivist> feed rate to high and it digs in
[23:56:24] <toastatwork> exactly.
[23:56:38] <toastatwork> the program was set for a tool capable of higher feeds and depths of cut
[23:56:40] <archivist> job springs
[23:56:50] <archivist> jaws loosen
[23:57:19] <toastatwork> and that's just one example
[23:57:25] <ilya__> Ok, your words go from the expirience and i take it
[23:57:26] <toastatwork> i have a bookcase shelf with all the parts i've ruined
[23:57:31] <toastatwork> over the years
[23:57:36] <toastatwork> to remind me
[23:57:53] <toastatwork> broken tools, milled vice jaws
[23:58:04] <archivist> war wounds
[23:58:29] <frallzor> ive just started with my little mill and got scars from it :P
[23:58:40] <toastatwork> and i actually have a low scrap rate compared to my co-workers, and they've been doing this for many, many years
[23:58:45] <ilya__> toastatwork: you don't accept an idea to enhance the speed of milling at a second day of the work with machine, right?
[23:58:57] <toastatwork> huh?
[23:59:12] <toastatwork> i accept the idea to increase the speed if the machine seems like it can handle it
[23:59:19] <ilya__> ok
[23:59:26] <toastatwork> the only way to learn if it won't work is to try it
[23:59:54] <toastatwork> but part of the experience is learning when trying it is appropriate