#emc | Logs for 2009-07-25

[01:24:16] <SWPadnos> well that figures
[01:24:35] <SWPadnos> nice weather for the last 3 days, and we get heavy downpour tonight
[01:24:47] <SWPadnos> after they've stripped the siding off my house
[01:26:16] <ilya_> Who're they? Mobsters?
[01:26:33] <SWPadnos> um. no
[01:27:01] <ilya_> workers then
[01:27:29] <SWPadnos> yes
[01:27:48] <SWPadnos> we're getting the siding replaced, but that means they take off the old stuff first
[01:27:52] <SWPadnos> just before a weekend
[01:29:02] <ilya_> Could RTAI waste a memory plate on my laptop?
[01:29:18] <SWPadnos> what is a mempry plate?
[01:29:20] <SWPadnos> memory
[01:29:31] <ilya_> i'm taking it back from guarantee shop
[01:29:44] <ilya_> DDR or so, 1024 Mb RAM
[01:29:54] <SWPadnos> oh, a memory "stick"?
[01:29:57] <SWPadnos> (mor module)
[01:29:59] <SWPadnos> gah
[01:30:01] <SWPadnos> or, not mor
[01:30:03] <ilya_> module
[01:30:27] <SWPadnos> I don't see how RTAI could do anything to memory that any other software couldn't do
[01:30:56] <ilya_> This laptop I'm using right now can not work in RTAI at all. Have to restart it immediately.
[01:31:19] <SWPadnos> did you compile it yourself?
[01:31:37] <ilya_> Anyway, RTAI + Laptop = problems due to the laptop's construction and ideology
[01:31:50] <ilya_> SWPadnos: no, bootable CD
[01:32:06] <SWPadnos> yes, but it should still run. it just wouldn't be expected to have good latency
[01:32:06] <ilya_> that one was from stock ubuntu repositories
[01:32:13] <SWPadnos> that isn't RTAI
[01:32:15] <SWPadnos> that's -rt
[01:32:27] <ilya_> SWPadnos: what a difference?
[01:32:33] <SWPadnos> a big difference
[01:32:47] <ilya_> SWPadnos: ok, from EMC2's repositories then
[01:33:12] <SWPadnos> now I don't know the question
[01:33:56] <ilya_> it was from EMC2 repositories, after an install-emc2.sh scipt
[01:34:00] <ilya_> script
[01:34:45] <ilya_> that was RTAI, and I probably run something else to the latency test.
[01:35:29] <SWPadnos> ok. I thought you were trying to get things working on 9.04, which is why I asked about compiling it yourself
[01:35:57] <SWPadnos> it's very easy to make an RTAI kernel that doesn't work, much harder to make one that does work.
[01:36:33] <ilya_> even on a PC?
[01:37:08] <SWPadnos> yes
[01:37:22] <ilya_> there should be patched something, with a proper architecture.
[01:37:25] <SWPadnos> there are a lot of settings, and if you get some wrong you're in trouble
[01:37:49] <SWPadnos> sure, I can download and patch the kernel, and build myself some nice RTAI goodness
[01:37:55] <SWPadnos> unless it doesn't work on my hardware
[01:38:03] <SWPadnos> with the settings I chose
[01:39:37] <ilya_> Is it true, that there are many used steppers and drives -- so as `we are capable to buy couple of them and arrange a machine'
[01:39:57] <SWPadnos> that probably depends on where you are
[01:40:04] <ilya_> or it's cheaper to buy a whole machine and changeleadscrews?
[01:40:27] <ilya_> Far from CNC machines, order through the Internets
[01:40:35] <SWPadnos> those aren't an either/or group
[01:40:48] <SWPadnos> you need steppers (or servos), drives, *and* screws
[01:41:15] <ilya_> screws can be created here
[01:41:18] <SWPadnos> buying a whole machine vs building one is a personal preference, and probably depends as much on budget and availability of parts
[01:41:28] <SWPadnos> so can motors, I bet
[01:41:28] <ilya_> the only problem is material isn't cheap
[01:42:13] <SWPadnos> if you have a $10000 budget and want to get a machine soon, you can buy a Tormach (assuming you need a milling machine with that work envelope)
[01:42:33] <SWPadnos> if you have a $1000 budget and a lot of time, then you'll probably need to buy parts
[01:42:41] <ilya_> So, am i right to think `Stepper' = Motor and an electric device, which can be connected to the parallel port immediately?
[01:45:03] <ilya_> Are these parts are `complete'? Or buying something in addition to motors, itself, and ordering it from all over the world is a part of the work, anyway?
[01:46:08] <SWPadnos> you need much more power than a parallel port can provide, which is where the driver comes in
[01:46:11] <SWPadnos> and a power supply
[01:46:26] <ilya_> oh...
[01:46:31] <SWPadnos> and probably some interface electronics (a "breakout board" or BOB) at minimum
[01:46:49] <SWPadnos> and then switches, relays, a spindle drive and motor
[01:46:58] <SWPadnos> and *then* the mechanical parts
[01:47:03] <ilya_> I thought I could cycle & machining instead of staying near the mill... ;)
[01:47:17] <SWPadnos> err
[01:48:06] <ilya_> yeah, switches -- so much!
[01:49:15] <ilya_> I'm reading info these days. I think many firms here try to use cnc for doors and stuff made of wood.
[01:49:34] <SWPadnos> yes, CNC wood routers are good for that
[01:50:01] <ilya_> and they actually pay about a 1 K per month to any worker
[01:50:27] <SWPadnos> is that good there?
[01:50:39] <ilya_> not bad.
[01:50:50] <SWPadnos> ok
[01:51:00] <ilya_> new apartments are about 70 K
[01:51:18] <SWPadnos> a family of 4, each earning $1000/month, would be below poverty level here
[01:51:23] <ilya_> cars as Toyota Land Cruiser is probably 60-70 K
[01:51:26] <SWPadnos> which is why I ask :)
[01:52:15] <ilya_> anyway, it's crisis, so many poor workers have only 999 $, not 1 K ;)
[01:52:22] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:52:32] <ilya_> j/k
[01:59:55] <Jymmm> GODZILLA!!!
[02:01:14] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: no place has/sells case mounting hardware
[02:01:20] <ilya_> Why shouldn't the graphics card use poprietary ati driver? There's a poblem, xorg.conf is needed to be appended with `disable composite' lines, or something else/
[02:07:07] <ilya_> `MDI' = Mode Du Intelligence, or 'Manual ...something... ...something...'?
[02:07:31] <SWPadnos> manual data input?
[02:08:08] <toastyde1th> "May Destroy Investment"
[02:08:31] <ilya_> SWPadnos: could be!
[02:08:46] <ilya_> manual device interface
[02:09:07] <toastyde1th> no, swpadnos is correct
[02:09:10] <toastyde1th> that is actually what mdi stands for
[02:09:23] <SWPadnos> yay! :)
[02:09:33] <ilya_> :P
[02:10:23] <Jymmm> I preferm toastyde1th's definition
[02:10:44] <SWPadnos> "Must Demonstrate Intelligence"
[02:11:30] <toastyde1th> never have I so loudly yelled "oh jesus christ" as when I am using mdi
[02:12:26] <Jymmm> toastyde1th: I dont see why you would do that... He's laughing his ass of at you too.
[02:12:33] <Jymmm> s/of/off/
[02:12:54] <toastyde1th> #$#$^%
[02:13:16] <Jymmm> And by 'you' I mean anyone that has/had/will do that
[02:14:58] <toastyde1th> agreed =(
[02:15:24] <Jymmm> Notice that there wasn't an 'if' in there.
[02:26:44] <ilya_> it's a morning, you've an evening
[02:37:19] <ilya_> same old story
[02:46:51] <ilya_> morning coffee. what a noble act! I would rather with raw bananas interact!
[03:21:40] <Valen> wha?
[03:43:14] <Valen1> Valen1 is now known as Valen
[04:55:07] <cradek> the mill is safely indoors in one piece!
[04:55:18] <cradek> oh wow, it's midnight :-)
[05:17:38] <DanielFalck> cradek: what did you get? (mill)
[05:17:48] <cradek> a little vmc
[05:17:57] <DanielFalck> wow cool
[05:17:59] <DanielFalck> what kind?
[05:18:22] <cradek> mori seiki mv jr
[05:18:28] <DanielFalck> great
[05:18:34] <cradek> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UXd9df0-RM
[05:18:41] <cradek> not my machine, but same model in this video
[05:19:17] <DanielFalck> did you get it from HGR?
[05:19:29] <cradek> nope, did you see one there?
[05:19:35] <DanielFalck> no, just curious
[05:19:38] <cradek> hgr rocks
[05:19:43] <DanielFalck> I look at their site a lot though
[05:19:55] <DanielFalck> we've bought a lot of 'stuff' from them in the last year
[05:20:01] <DanielFalck> great prices
[05:20:03] <cradek> yep
[05:20:07] <cradek> but buyer beware
[05:20:10] <DanielFalck> yep
[05:20:34] <DanielFalck> I figure it's going to need a lot of tlc if it comes from them, but have been pleasantly surprised too
[05:21:05] <cradek> have you used uship.com? it worked great for us. found a nice independent guy with a big truck who was coming this way.
[05:21:25] <DanielFalck> I haven't, but will check them out
[05:21:49] <DanielFalck> I assume you're going to retrofit the machine with emc2?
[05:22:17] <cradek> yes the control boards are missing
[05:23:33] <DanielFalck> I've been out of the loop with emc- I've been totally into heekscnc lately . I'll try and keep up on your progress on this one
[05:24:22] <cradek> this machine has a random carousel where tools move around in pockets. I wrote support for that, but it is still on a branch so far
[05:25:05] <cradek> other than that, I don't think it'll be anything new
[05:27:31] <DanielFalck> are you going to be able to re use the drives and servo motors?
[05:29:10] <cradek> yes I sure hope so
[05:29:23] <cradek> and the ac spindle drive
[05:29:31] <DanielFalck> great
[05:29:38] <cradek> I hope I hope
[05:29:42] <DanielFalck> fanuc hardware?
[05:29:54] <cradek> the control was yasnac
[05:30:14] <cradek> I don't know much about it yet...
[05:30:19] <DanielFalck> we have some yasnac controls at work- they seem pretty decent
[05:30:43] <DanielFalck> you can find the old manuals on the yasnac website too
[05:30:56] <DanielFalck> there might be a maint manual there
[05:30:58] <cradek> nice, I will try that.
[05:31:23] <cradek> I need docs for at least the amps and vfd. I don't have any yet.
[05:31:41] <cradek> the wiring is not obvious unfortunately
[05:31:49] <DanielFalck> if you don't find them online, email me and I will look at work to see what we have
[05:31:57] <cradek> ok, thank you
[05:32:16] <DanielFalck> we will probably end up retrofitting them someday too
[05:32:37] <cradek> I have a maintenance type manual that had the pull stud dimensions - that was a great help - I ordered tooling already. (yes maybe premature)
[05:35:38] <DanielFalck> is Stuart using that big 5 axis Cinci for production yet?
[05:39:16] <cradek> not QUITE yet
[05:39:34] <cradek> I was there recently and he's finally happy with how his geometric-error compensating kinematics are working
[05:39:42] <DanielFalck> great
[05:40:09] <DanielFalck> I hope he can post more videos when he's running something really big on it
[05:41:00] <cradek> we measured the distance by which the spindle centerline is beside, instead of through, the center of rotation of B
[05:41:33] <cradek> if I remember right, it's 0.043 inches
[05:41:38] <cradek> seems like a huge error
[05:41:45] <DanielFalck> wow
[05:42:20] <cradek> his kinematics were keeping position at the table to +- .005 while moving B throughout its range
[05:42:57] <DanielFalck> that's very interesting- I love that you can do that without a mechanical fix
[05:43:23] <cradek> also when you swing B, there is a tiny bit of movement in Y - the head and table aren't quite parallel
[05:43:38] <cradek> those were the only two measurements I saw
[05:44:58] <cradek> wow, it's late - I'm off
[05:45:04] <cradek> nice to talk to you
[05:45:07] <DanielFalck> well, I need to go read- good chatting
[05:45:14] <cradek> goodnight
[12:26:38] <Poincare> what is a good place to shop online for vibration absorbers? :-D
[12:27:48] <BigJohnT> mcmaster carr
[12:29:00] <BigJohnT> what kind of application?
[12:29:23] <alex_joni> relaxation products
[12:29:27] <alex_joni> :P
[12:30:20] <BigJohnT> :)
[12:30:20] <Poincare> for the outdoor unit of my airco, the vibrations are travelling through the walls
[12:31:22] <Poincare> than through the floor into my bed. Can't hear anything when I'm sitting up, but it's driving me crazy when laying down
[12:33:05] <BigJohnT> do you mean the air conditioner compressor?
[12:33:59] <Poincare> yes, that one
[12:34:36] <BigJohnT> it should have vibration isolators all ready... is it touching the structure somewhere?
[12:35:35] <Poincare> doesn't touch anything
[12:36:43] <Poincare> actually it's complexer, originally the outdoor unit was mounted directly on brackets to the wall
[12:37:47] <Poincare> it was silent outdoor, but vibrations through wall/floor/bed made that i couldn't sleep
[12:38:05] <Poincare> so they put absorbers between the outdoor unit and the brackets
[12:38:51] <Poincare> that solved the travelling vibrations, but made the case of the unit vibrate making so much noise that my neighbour started to complain
[12:39:19] <BigJohnT> your neighbor is too close
[12:39:31] <Poincare> that's also a problem :-)
[12:40:34] <Poincare> I put a sack of sand on top of the unit 2 years ago, that solved all the problems untill it bursted few weeks ago
[12:42:23] <Poincare> My idea is to replace the current big/soft dampers with lower ones an put a heavy (concrete) plate between the dampers and the unit
[12:42:57] <Poincare> to get enough inertia to hold the case from vibrating
[12:47:00] <BigJohnT> why not just put a sack of quickcrete on top it will harden like a rock after a few rains
[12:49:27] <BigJohnT> what is the script syntax to wait for a key press? Like press any key to close this window...
[12:50:31] <SWPadnos> what scripting language, and what kind of execution (console vs. separate window)?
[12:51:13] <BigJohnT> I'm launching a terminal window from the desktop
[12:51:29] <SWPadnos> so your script runs in a terminal
[12:51:39] <BigJohnT> yes
[12:51:50] <BigJohnT> but the window closes as soon as the script is finished
[12:52:07] <BigJohnT> because I'm using a launcher
[12:52:09] <SWPadnos> check the "leave terminal open after execution" box in the launcher :)
[12:52:28] <SWPadnos> (or uncheck the "close terminal after ...
[12:52:31] <SWPadnos> ")
[12:53:27] <BigJohnT> I don't see that option in 8.04
[12:53:32] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[12:53:54] <SWPadnos> it should be near the "run in a terminal" option (however that's spelled)
[12:54:24] <SWPadnos> http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-general-1/how-to-make-shell-script-wait-for-key-press-to-proceed...-687491/
[12:55:02] <BigJohnT> SWPadnos: your a google guru
[12:55:06] <SWPadnos> heh
[12:55:19] <SWPadnos> "bash wait for keypress" ...
[12:55:23] <SWPadnos> (no quotes though)
[12:56:28] <BigJohnT> :)
[12:56:45] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT doesn't know anything about bash
[12:57:09] <SWPadnos> now if only I could find out how you're supposed to mount a network interface to a house, I'd be in good shape
[12:57:22] <SWPadnos> (such that you can replace siding around it)
[12:57:53] <BigJohnT> how big is it?
[12:58:30] <BigJohnT> they make dodads for light fixtures that are about 4.5" x 4.5" or so
[12:58:40] <SWPadnos> the NID is pretty small, maybe 10" across and 6" high
[12:58:46] <SWPadnos> no, bigger
[12:59:09] <SWPadnos> and our electric meter is also bolted to the siding, which is annoying
[12:59:33] <SWPadnos> first because I have to open the box to undo the screws (which doesn't make me happy since there's no disconnect)
[12:59:59] <SWPadnos> second because there's a wire in there that goes to nothing, but it's clamped in the same cable clamp as the main power feed
[13:00:33] <BigJohnT> on Dad's house I mounted some treated wood to the OSB then trimmed around it with "J" or whatever it's called
[13:00:38] <SWPadnos> and third because there's no slack in the wires, so I can't move the box far off the house (to remove old siding, put in new siding, or put a panel behind it)
[13:00:49] <SWPadnos> Z-strip (drip edge)?
[13:01:29] <BigJohnT> the same stuff you trim between the siding and the top of the wall where it meets the soffit
[13:01:54] <SWPadnos> oh. that could be J channel
[13:02:02] <BigJohnT> just like you would trim around a window
[13:02:02] <SWPadnos> Z-strip is used above windows
[13:08:12] <BigJohnT> hmmm bash read doesn't work
[13:08:38] <SWPadnos> what is the line from the script?
[13:10:28] <BigJohnT> read -p "press any key" -n1 -s
[13:13:22] <BigJohnT> 4000 lines down in man bash I find read :/
[13:13:25] <SWPadnos> what happens?
[13:13:31] <SWPadnos> yeah, "Shell Builtin Commands" :)
[13:13:56] <SWPadnos> des it blow past the read, wait for you to press return, something else ... ?
[13:14:40] <SWPadnos> (obviously I don't have a machine handy to test with, or I'd answer the question myself)
[13:15:27] <BigJohnT> yea, it just blows by and the terminal closes
[13:16:00] <SWPadnos> two silly things to try: 1) remove the -p "yadda"
[13:16:13] <SWPadnos> (you can echo -n "press any key" above the read to print the prompt)
[13:16:24] <SWPadnos> 2) separate the n and 1: read -n 1 ...
[13:17:27] <SWPadnos> also, you may need to insure that the input buffer is flushed before issuing the read command - it's possible that earlier keypresses are being held until they're asked for
[13:17:33] <BigJohnT> ok
[13:20:42] <SWPadnos> this might also be helpful, if you want to do launcher-foo instead :) http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-938925.html
[13:20:50] <BigJohnT> there seems to be something strage after this line "sudo -S make setuid << 1" things like echo are not in red after that line
[13:21:00] <SWPadnos> ah
[13:21:13] <SWPadnos> ssh also does funny things to stdio
[13:21:26] <ilya_> what does `-S' option do?\
[13:21:44] <ilya_> i'm on a new laptop already.
[13:22:10] <SWPadnos> The -S (stdin) option causes sudo to read the password from the standard input instead of the terminal device.
[13:22:25] <BigJohnT> I moved the read to above the sudo... and it works now
[13:22:29] <SWPadnos> ^^ from the manpage
[13:22:32] <ilya_> As i said, ubuntu 8.04, being installed from usb stick via a backported usb-creator can not mount any USB flash disks
[13:22:56] <ilya_> `standard input'?
[13:23:02] <SWPadnos> BigJohnT, yeah. you may need to connect another file descriptor to stdin, then messa roundwith sudo, then read -u <the_saved_fd>
[13:23:30] <ilya_> i mean usual ubuntu 8.04, not RTAI kernel, which doesn't support usb by default
[13:24:27] <BigJohnT> it works for me putting the read ahead of the sudo I can see any errors before the terminal closes
[13:27:41] <ilya_> BigJohnT: do you have a script to compile emc2? I had one, starting from 'dpkg' in subdirectory, compiling emc2-sim and even wine!
[13:28:02] <SWPadnos> time to run. see you later
[13:28:03] <BigJohnT> going to start clearing the spot for the tower this morning
[13:28:14] <BigJohnT> ilya_: yes
[13:28:24] <BigJohnT> see you later
[13:28:24] <ilya_> i wish i knew how to append the xorg.conf file to disable composite extensions
[13:28:48] <BigJohnT> breakfast time
[13:29:03] <ilya_> evening time
[13:53:10] <Poincare> ilya_: Option "Composite" "Disable" ?
[13:53:45] <Poincare> in the "Extensions" section
[13:54:25] <ilya_> Poincare: when you use a proprietary ati driver, you need to disable composite extensions in /etc/X11/xorg.conf to see graphics in the AXIS interface
[13:54:40] <ilya_> Poincare: yeah
[13:55:17] <Poincare> you already tried the composite option?
[13:56:09] <ilya_> I had script, which copies my files to /etc/wvdial.conf, /usr/share/stardict/dic, installas *.deb packages, compiles emc2-sim and wine (after successfull proprietary driver installation)
[13:57:15] <ilya_> Poincare: as i say, `composite' option doesn't let you see graphics in AXIS's graphics window until you drag the pointer within that window
[13:58:29] <ilya_> i tried it and also couldn't play games as GTA SA in ubuntu 8.04
[13:59:16] <ilya_> Section "Extensions" | Option "Composite" "disable" | EndSection
[13:59:38] <ilya_> then "sudo /etc/init.d./gdm restart"
[14:00:31] <ilya_> and "sudo nano /etc/X11/xorg.conf" to edit it in terminal if changes in xorg.conf weren't successfull
[14:13:01] <ilya_> 5.5 of the `Installing EMC2' guide
[14:17:49] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT goes to get the chainsaw out and clear the spot for the wireless high speed internet tower :)
[14:32:57] <Xteven> internet tower ?
[14:43:31] <Xteven> does anyone here use solid edge ? I'd like to find out if it can export in any format that is useable by EMC2
[14:47:06] <ilya_> `solid edge'?
[14:47:18] <ilya_> HeeksCNC + Inkscape
[14:47:30] <ilya_> .g solid edge
[14:53:57] <Xteven> I have access to solid edge, it appears to be excellent CAD/CAE software
[14:54:45] <Xteven> SE CNC Converter is a must-have tool to automate extraction of 2D and 3D drawings from proprietary Solid Edge format to CNC Machines compatible files.
[14:54:51] <Xteven> I'll have a look at that
[14:55:39] <Xteven> looks promising
[15:28:26] <ilya_> Xteven: is it free from charge?
[15:32:17] <ilya_> I have some unused traffic and want to see some good pictures of CNC machines. If someone can mention any, please, give a link.
[15:32:53] <ilya_> those, revealing switches, cables, and so on. As for beginner.
[15:39:42] <Xteven> ilya_: no, it costs money
[15:39:57] <Xteven> but my university has some licensing agreement wil siemens PLM (author of solid edge)
[15:40:02] <Xteven> and I can get it for free
[15:40:09] <ilya_> Xteven: ok
[15:40:29] <Xteven> thats the reason I'm considering it ;)
[15:40:55] <ilya_> I can get educational ANSYS, but I have already tried caelinux2008.iso from www.caelinux.org
[15:40:56] <Xteven> the SE CNC convertor is free I think, although you need a SE license
[15:41:03] <Xteven> and there is also solid edge 2D, which is free
[15:41:23] <Xteven> http://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/en_us/products/velocity/solidedge/free2d/index.shtml
[15:41:44] <Xteven> "it's absolutely FREE to download and use."
[15:41:48] <Xteven> maybe worth checking out
[15:42:51] <ilya_> I don't really like 3d-modelling for Finite element analysis except, for some certain cases where it saves time
[15:43:26] <ilya_> ok, to see it, i should wait till the end of this card, disconnect and change sim-card
[15:43:35] <ilya_> i'm saving link
[15:44:31] <ilya_> i have compiled emc2-sim from source with `--enable-documentation' and reading it. Need to finish reading and try to get employed
[15:44:33] <Xteven> :)
[15:44:49] <Xteven> ok
[15:44:55] <Xteven> have to cut the lawn
[15:44:56] <Xteven> cya
[15:45:15] <ilya_> it's almost a midnight ? =-O
[15:45:29] <ilya_> right
[16:28:18] <ilya_> skunkworks: any good CNC-related pictures for beginners?
[16:29:19] <pjm> ilya_ what do u want pictures for, to get an idea of what to build etc?
[16:29:36] <skunkworks> cnczone.com
[16:29:46] <skunkworks> has a lot of good ideas
[16:30:58] <pjm> ilya_ http://cncforums.machinetoolhelp.com/gallery/
[16:31:10] <ilya_> pjm: i'm new to CNC and usually browse internet from home via GPRS without any graphics
[16:31:29] <pjm> ahh good idea, i use lynx browser myself
[16:31:42] <ilya_> need good interesting pictures right now, everyone of you can point out some good ones
[16:32:10] <pjm> interesting from what perspective? mechanics / electronics / blah?
[16:32:47] <ilya_> i'm using firefox with web-developer toolbar, which is capable to upload images without renewing the page, it saves time and efoorts
[16:33:06] <ilya_> rather connection to PC
[16:33:28] <ilya_> will see
[16:34:07] <ilya_> 3.24 K/s ===> downloading some dictionaries :)
[18:35:49] <Jymmm> tap tap tap... is this thing on?
[18:35:53] <alex_joni> nope
[18:36:26] <Jymmm> ah, ok
[18:36:42] <Jymmm> how goes it?
[18:38:11] <DaViruz> is there a complete hal reference somewhere?
[18:39:23] <cradek> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/
[18:39:58] <DaViruz> oh
[18:40:41] <alex_joni> Jymmm: pretty fine
[18:43:07] <DaViruz> is stepgen.position-scale used for stepgen velocity control as well?
[18:44:50] <cradek> doubt it - doesn't make much sense
[18:48:21] <DaViruz> so how do i set scale for stepgen velocity contorl :)
[18:49:22] <cradek> oh, I'm wrong
[18:49:33] <cradek> the man page says opposite what I said - in that case, it is usually right
[18:49:58] <cradek> in fact it explicitly has the answer to your question
[18:50:23] <cradek> at that url I gave you earlier, click on stepgen.9
[18:57:01] <DaViruz> oh, i was reading under http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//hal_rtcomps.html , it wasn't clear on that point. the manpage seems more complete. thanks again.. :)
[18:57:22] <cradek> welcome
[18:57:29] <DaViruz> i'll try to be more thurogh before asking more questions on the subject :P
[18:57:32] <cradek> I think the man pages are usually best for the hal components
[18:57:46] <cradek> no big deal - there are lots of places to find docs - it's not obvious sometimes.
[19:00:00] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Did you see my new (surplus for $50) toy? http://www.cidesign.com/product_detail.jsp?productID=60&region=us
[19:03:50] <alex_joni> Jymmm: cool
[19:04:22] <Jymmm> alex_joni: 8 bays of sata hot swap goodness
[19:04:52] <alex_joni> sweet deal
[19:10:05] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Of course I've been looking for years, and when I FINALLY find one, the very next day this is advertised... http://newspaperads.mercurynews.com/ROP/ads.aspx?advid=32664&adid=8104962&subid=26353009&type=
[19:10:50] <Jymmm> It has the OS on the 1st hdd
[19:11:37] <tom1> tom1 is now known as tom3p
[19:13:51] <alex_joni> Jymmm: what's so special about it?
[19:13:53] <tom3p> somebody was looking for a mid power edm supply design? http://cscott.net/Projects/FabClass/final/Schematic/edm-power.pdf
[19:14:11] <Jymmm> alex_joni: how do you mean?
[19:14:18] <tom3p> i didnt think it'd handle finishing frequencies, but would rough ok
[19:14:23] <alex_joni> PC with 4 sata hdds
[19:14:35] <Jymmm> alex_joni: It's a NAS box
[19:14:43] <alex_joni> right
[19:14:45] <alex_joni> and?
[19:14:55] <alex_joni> linux+samba = NAS
[19:15:05] <Jymmm> alex_joni: dedicated
[19:15:24] <alex_joni> it still runs linux probably ;)
[19:15:27] <Jymmm> alex_joni: rip ut the WHS and toss on FreeNAS as example
[19:16:33] <Jymmm> I'm tempted to buy try it out with linux just to see how good it is.
[19:16:57] <Jymmm> alex_joni: The best thing is that they are howswap drives and tray all in a single unit.
[19:18:01] <Jymmm> I RTFM'ed, but I dont see anything about RAID or growing and max supports 4TB, but for $350 not too shabby.
[19:19:25] <alex_joni> get a drobo
[19:19:41] <Jymmm> USB only fsck that
[19:19:57] <Jymmm> even the new 8 bay drobo is iSCSI only
[19:20:14] <alex_joni> they have droboshare
[19:20:18] <alex_joni> NAS for drobo
[19:20:22] <ilya1> what are the `switches' between the parallel port and three steppers?
[19:20:25] <alex_joni> http://www.drobo.com/products/droboshare.php
[19:20:27] <Jymmm> It's still limited to USB speeds
[19:20:35] <Jymmm> and only 10/100 iirc
[19:20:41] <alex_joni> ilya1: step motor drives
[19:20:54] <alex_joni> the power thingies that output the current for the motors to move
[19:21:06] <Jymmm> drivers?
[19:21:11] <alex_joni> Interface:10/100/1000 Ethernet
[19:21:13] <Jymmm> motor drivers like gecko
[19:21:18] <ilya1> can i buy three steppers and cable to connect them to the power supply and a computer, and try a test run
[19:21:26] <Jymmm> alex_joni: still limited to usb speeds.
[19:21:46] <Jymmm> ilya1: sure, they'll just spin of course
[19:21:48] <ilya1> alex_joni: and what is a `power supply'?
[19:22:38] <alex_joni> ilya1: something you connect to power (220V AC) and it outputs power for the motor drivers (usually DC, 40-70V)
[19:24:43] <ilya1> alex_joni: ok, so stepper = controlling device + motor itself, and controlling device have two variables: input as a signal and as DC 40-70V, and output as more or less constant in time DC 40-70V
[19:25:20] <ilya1> so, all these parts can be easily ordered through internet, right?
[19:25:53] <Jymmm> ilya1: No, You need motor driver, like gecko or xylotex and you connect the motor to that (if using stepper motors).
[19:26:20] <Jymmm> You connect the power supply and computer to the motor driver.
[19:27:40] <ilya1> Jymmm: and the motor, itself (and checking if they're connectable)
[19:28:51] <ilya1> ok, and all these parts seems to be standard.
[19:31:51] <ilya1> I just see many self-made microschemas in the internets
[19:34:15] <ilya1> What is it for: http://www.cnczone.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/35/cat/1 ? Something, dedicated to reliable signals?
[19:37:29] <ilya1> Am I right to say "your computer works with RTAI kernel and i recommend add two usual coolers, which red wires are connected subsequentally -- to reduce speed while having a decent air movement"
[19:38:14] <ilya1> or RTAI can only overheat those Laptop's CPU's with their IRQ nature?
[19:38:59] <ilya1> I.e. "RTAI let no CPU to idle" even when latency isn't needed by any program
[19:39:11] <alex_joni> that is not true
[19:39:21] <alex_joni> you have rtai running and linux running
[19:39:25] <ilya1> alex_joni: which statement?
[19:39:28] <alex_joni> rtai is only running a tiny amount of time
[19:39:31] <ilya1> ok
[19:39:37] <alex_joni> when linux is running you can look at the processor load
[19:39:43] <ilya1> RTAI + casual Linux
[19:39:53] <alex_joni> if you are still at <50% that means that you still get some time ofr the CPU to be idle
[19:40:10] <ilya1> and? Why does laptop stop to work and needs a restart?
[19:40:57] <ilya1> alex_joni: ok, and when it's being used -- laptop with turned off acpi support can not handle this load, right?
[19:42:41] <ilya1> Again, why whould I add http://www.cnczone.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/35/cat/1 between my ***not-bad-for-CNC-computer's parallel port*** and actual wire to the machine's steppers
[19:44:04] <ilya1> How does cable spreads over three (or more) different engines? Is there any additional device between this cable from a computer and steppers?
[19:44:19] <alex_joni> you still need to do wiring
[19:44:37] <alex_joni> that device provides some aditional components (described on that page)
[19:44:39] <alex_joni> like isolation
[19:44:50] <ilya1> wiring as 1,2,3 --> 1st stepper, 4,5,6 --> 2nd, etc?
[19:44:59] <alex_joni> something like that
[19:45:35] <ilya1> `isolation'? reliability is meant?
[19:45:57] <alex_joni> isolation means bad currents can't reach and damage your PC
[19:46:21] <ilya1> oh, it's wise :)
[19:47:17] <ilya1> ok, and i manually connect those wires from pins to steppers, right? Any standard physical interfaces for this sake?
[19:48:54] <alex_joni> there are lots of solutions
[19:49:04] <alex_joni> it depends what you want to do
[19:49:07] <ilya1> alex_joni: like what?
[19:49:11] <alex_joni> you always start from the machine specs
[19:49:15] <alex_joni> then you size the motors
[19:49:23] <alex_joni> based on that you decide what drivers to use
[19:49:35] <alex_joni> based on the drivers you look for a breakoutboard
[19:49:37] <ilya1> self-made machine with standard components on a mechanical plant
[19:49:39] <alex_joni> etc
[19:49:47] <alex_joni> that doesn't mean anything
[19:50:02] <alex_joni> consider your X axis
[19:50:03] <ilya1> `brekout board'?
[19:50:13] <alex_joni> the product you showed earlier
[19:50:24] <alex_joni> that's called a breakout board
[19:50:29] <ilya1> 2 meters long, 5 mm thick metal to cut
[19:50:39] <alex_joni> gantry?
[19:50:48] <ilya1> with ... forgot the word
[19:50:48] <alex_joni> what will you use to cut?
[19:50:52] <ilya1> a drill
[19:51:23] <alex_joni> so you want a router (2m x ...) that cuts 5mm metal?
[19:51:27] <ilya1> a drill-like tool for cutting & finishing
[19:51:40] <ilya1> yeah, could be
[19:51:50] <alex_joni> that's going to be hard
[19:52:26] <ilya1> like a big one, as a bridge with carriage and a spindle
[19:52:34] <ilya1> for example
[19:52:46] <alex_joni> that's called a gantry design
[19:52:52] <ilya1> standard parts from sheet metal
[19:53:01] <alex_joni> http://www.gudel.com/common/img/products/linear/monoroll/monoroll-gantry-img01.jpg
[19:53:13] <ilya1> ok
[19:53:31] <alex_joni> you need a lot of stiffness to cut 5mm metal
[19:53:43] <alex_joni> that means for 2m long, it will be a really heavy machine
[19:54:02] <tom3p> is that picture a rack drive ?
[19:54:10] <ilya1> so, i can calculate loads and leadscrews myself. choosing motors, drivers, then i try to choose a breakout board. what is it?
[19:54:23] <alex_joni> tom3p: tack+pinion
[19:54:55] <alex_joni> ilya1: say you decide for a gecko as the driver
[19:55:10] <ilya1> alex_joni: metal, and its shape could bear it
[19:55:42] <ilya1> alex_joni: i didn't read about that gecko yet
[19:55:43] <alex_joni> lets say you decide to buy something like this: http://www.geckodrive.com/product.aspx?c=3&i=14461
[19:56:14] <ilya1> ok
[19:56:23] <alex_joni> this would be a breakout board for geckos: http://www.pmdx.com/Images/PMDX-132.jpg
[19:56:39] <ilya1> ok
[19:56:50] <ilya1> it hadn't loaded yet
[19:57:30] <ilya1> this thing divides signals from parallel port to steppers?
[19:57:31] <tom3p> alex_joni: thx, that gudel stuff is nice
[19:58:10] <alex_joni> ilya1: yes, but also does other things
[19:58:19] <alex_joni> http://www.pmdx.com/PMDX-132
[19:58:25] <ilya1> like what?
[19:58:30] <ilya1> ok
[19:58:59] <ilya1> oh, let's wait a minute, i have only 3 Kbps
[20:01:04] <ilya1> ways to connect, isolation, some controls, and probably something else
[20:01:09] <ilya1> OK
[20:02:09] <ilya1> and now it spins steppers, right?
[20:02:21] <alex_joni> right
[20:02:36] <alex_joni> but it really depends how big motors you need
[20:02:50] <alex_joni> there are also packages to be found on google
[20:02:54] <ilya1> OK, thanks, I'll try to create a memorandum with this all
[20:02:58] <alex_joni> something like this: http://www.kelinginc.net/CNCNEMA34Package.html
[20:03:02] <alex_joni> logger_emc: bookmark
[20:03:02] <alex_joni> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2009-07-25.txt
[20:03:09] <alex_joni> ilya1: ^^
[20:03:10] <ilya1> packages of what?
[20:03:24] <alex_joni> motors+drivers+breakout+power supply
[20:03:26] <ilya1> seeing
[20:04:23] <ilya1> what is shiny at left up corner? (http://www.kelinginc.net/sitebuilder/images/NEMA34Package-375x292.jpg) A power supplier?
[20:04:44] <tom3p> torroid transformer
[20:05:35] <ilya1> so, it turns on power when I and turns off when O, does it?
[20:07:06] <ilya1> and good transformator with enough power and probably few coolers
[20:08:52] <tom3p> the computer asks for the power to turn on. the breakout insulates the tiny computer request from the big power supply ( and makes it easier to connect), the breakout connects to the driver, the driver switches the big power from the supply to the motor.
[20:09:00] <alex_joni> tom3p: GUEDEL has very nice, but also very expensive components :)
[20:09:11] <ilya1> ok, will load some books from www.listlib.narod.ru as those with formulas related to metal cutting (my skilled speciality), create some documents with LYX, creating an offer and trying to be employed despite the crisis
[20:09:21] <tom3p> alex_joni: i'm drooling... how expensive? any examples?
[20:10:41] <alex_joni> a few k for one axis iirc
[20:10:47] <alex_joni> tom3p: http://www.gudel.com/de/img/heavy_modular_img02.gif
[20:10:52] <ilya1> tom3p: and the word `breakout', itself, means turning on and off the power when it's needed
[20:11:37] <alex_joni> tom3p: it's a swiss company
[20:12:06] <tom3p> oh i forgot the mandatory markup for 'made in switzerland' ;)
[20:12:09] <alex_joni> ilya1: no .. breakout comes from the fact that you only connect one cable from PC to that board, the board splits the signals up, and then you gave different cables from that board to the drivers
[20:12:31] <ilya1> OK
[20:13:27] <ilya1> tube is for rigidity within that square profile
[20:13:39] <ilya1> nice.
[20:16:20] <alex_joni> ilya1: that is not an axis to cut metal with
[20:16:23] <ilya1> s/pipe/tube
[20:16:31] <alex_joni> it may be ok for wood, aluminum and plastics
[20:16:42] <alex_joni> it's probably not strong enough for milling 5mm of steel
[20:18:00] <ilya1> cutting with a water jet then, heh
[20:19:02] <alex_joni> that's no problem
[20:19:11] <alex_joni> even plasma or oxy-fuel
[20:19:18] <alex_joni> as you don't have high cutting forces
[20:20:22] <ilya1> cutting forces should be determined. For a round instrument, i'll have found it not in a very first book ...
[20:21:19] <ilya1> there can be another construction.
[20:22:26] <ilya1> well, screws, right?
[20:23:08] <ilya1> ball screw is something new for me. I didn't imagine it before.
[20:23:52] <ilya1> Though, I usually imagined cars. ladies... houses.
[20:25:38] <ilya1> there can be a rail, carriage with stepper, hollow motor and a ball screw. Bridge would have the same.
[20:31:05] <ilya1> screw can be made of a suitable pipe with thick walls, 5 MPa or so  for sliding contacts for usual carbon steel
[20:32:59] <ilya1> no rail, just two pipes, another two pipes and a spindle. It should be in a natural manner. It's easy to remember.
[20:41:55] <ilya1> Can you also call any Machine Operator's Manual for particular machines, with tables D ~ Speed?
[20:50:36] <toastyde1th> wat
[20:51:30] <ilya1> any good machinist's manual
[20:52:17] <toastyde1th> what does D ~ Speed mean
[20:54:00] <ilya1> diameter ~ speed or even forces, although http://www.listlib.narod.ru/mashstroy/aGranovsky.htm seems offers such formulae
[20:54:48] <ilya1> * ilya1 lies and relaxes few minutes.
[20:58:17] <toastyde1th> if you're looking for inches, RPM = SFM * 12 / (D * pi)
[20:59:17] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek/01192416516
[21:04:54] <DaViruz> yay, step/dir driven servo spindle up and running
[21:05:02] <ilya1> SFM ?
[21:05:31] <DaViruz> but 1024 steps per revolution makes for a nasty frequency at max rpm, i'll have to set a prescaler in the drive..