#emc | Logs for 2009-06-19

[00:15:00] <Goslowjimbo> geo01005: when you enabled the SPI, did you put the "spi=-1,2,4" or whatever in the same line as "num_stepgen=3" ?
[00:27:24] <Goslowjimbo> I seem to be having trouble enabling the SPI ports on the 7i43.
[00:43:05] <PCW> Goslowjimbo: Since theres no driver support for the SPI devices, you have to do everything with raw read and raw write
[00:43:06] <PCW> thats why I was mumbling about registers 0x1104 (DDR reg for second connector) and 0x1204 (AltSource register for second connector)
[00:44:00] <PCW> (NumSPIs will only make the driver barf, since it knows nothing about SPI interfaces)
[01:04:28] <Goslowjimbo> I thought I knew what I was doing. Obvoiusly, I dont.
[01:05:26] <PCW> Down to the peek and poke level I'm afraid
[01:06:01] <f7ee> 1. LiveCD boots up RTAI mode, right?
[01:06:37] <f7ee> So it's not recommented to use this liveCD on a laptop, right?
[01:08:40] <Jymmm> It's not recommened to use a laptop period
[01:10:38] <f7ee> Jymmm: LiveCD is useless if I apply it to the laptop, right?
[01:11:03] <f7ee> Can I get LiveCD withemc2-sim.debs?
[01:11:06] <Jymmm> no
[01:11:22] <Jymmm> iirc it has sim
[01:11:40] <Jymmm> just try it
[01:12:21] <John_F_> I have used the live cd on a laptop just to run axis sim
[01:13:14] <Goslowjimbo> pcw: debug output is the same as dmesg, right?
[01:18:15] <jimbo132> Is the emc.nml file that you call out in the xxx.ini simular to a named pipe or a device file in that if you know the structure anybody can read from it?
[01:19:01] <f7ee> but LiveCD boots up in RTAI mode
[01:21:09] <geo01005_home> Goslowjimbo: Do you understand how my hal component works?
[01:22:52] <geo01005_home> You will have to look into the regmap file to understand what is happening.
[01:23:34] <jimbo132> Is it possable for two interfaces to coexist at the same IE axis and something else?
[01:24:10] <geo01005_home> I can walk you through what I did, and we will see what we can do make your device work.
[01:25:26] <Goslowjimbo> OK I know the first instance in your program accesses a DDR register. I dont know where that address comes from.
[01:25:45] <geo01005_home> So let me show you in the regmap
[01:26:19] <Goslowjimbo> OK
[01:26:38] <Goslowjimbo> How do I look at the regmap?
[01:27:11] <geo01005_home> Take a look here : http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/firmware/src/regmap?annotate=1.5
[01:27:30] <geo01005_home> Lets look at line number 150ish
[01:28:45] <Goslowjimbo> I see it there.
[01:28:57] <geo01005_home> so we need to set the DRR register for the second port manually to get the SPI pins to have the correct direction.
[01:29:30] <geo01005_home> Normally HM2 would do this for us, but since it knows nothing about SPI yet we have to do it manualy.
[01:30:52] <geo01005_home> sorry I'm looking back at my code right now to see what the heck I did...
[01:31:49] <Goslowjimbo> My problem has been I thought the dmesg printout has this information. I understand the need to do raw reads and writes, and to set up the DDR and I/O levels before actually using the spi..
[01:32:10] <geo01005_home> so where are you having problems?
[01:32:58] <Goslowjimbo> In finding this file you are showing me - the regmap.
[01:33:21] <geo01005_home> Ok, well now you know where it is.
[01:33:57] <geo01005_home> BSPI stuff is down on line 668
[01:34:28] <PCW> I was probably wrong about debug output being of much use, Does it print anything useful about unknown pins?
[01:34:28] <Goslowjimbo> Yes. Thanks for your patience. Once I confused the dmesg with the regmap, I questioned everything I thought I knew.
[01:35:39] <PCW> Also GoSlows config uses SSPI, not BSPI (SSPI is line 622)
[01:35:55] <Goslowjimbo> It shows primary and secondary use, # of instances, and modules used.
[01:36:21] <PCW> Waht does it show on the SPI pins?
[01:37:56] <Goslowjimbo> unknown-gtag-# for the secondary tag, unknown-pin-#, then input or output for the pin itself.
[01:38:53] <Goslowjimbo> Another thing that confused me is the dmesg shows only one instance of the module unknown-gtag-128.
[01:39:26] <geo01005_home> hmm, I never understood how to use sspi.
[01:42:48] <Goslowjimbo> http://www.pastebin.ca/1465602
[01:56:35] <PCW> Gtag 128 is the FPGA card LEDs (still unsupported)
[01:58:35] <PCW> bbl
[02:03:22] <Goslowjimbo> g'night
[02:14:51] <geo01005_home> hmm, I updated to 2.3.1 and now hm2 thinks my 400 gate fpga is a 200 gate.
[02:18:17] <geo01005_home> did the bit files change from 2.2.x to 2.3.x?
[02:20:37] <geo01005_home> anybody else had this problem with their 7i43????
[02:21:29] <wholepair> geo01005: i've never used anything but parport, sorry
[02:23:23] <geo01005_home> ha, never mind, I'm a moron. I moved the computer the other day and the parallel port cable came loose:)
[03:25:27] <KimK> Where can I go to find more info on the signals Xen, Yen, and Zen? And what they are dependent on? MIne seem to be staying false all the time. What enables them?
[03:29:20] <KimK> I see the integrators Manual p.67, 10.3.6, where they seem to be outputs from emc2. Nothing is said about what enables them.
[03:34:00] <SWPadnos> signals aren't in the integrators manual, since they have arbitrary names
[03:34:02] <cradek> signals connect pins together; motion has outputs that are pins.
[03:34:11] <cradek> maybe your signals aren't connected
[03:34:27] <cradek> the pins you may want are axis.N.amp-enable-out if I remember right
[03:34:34] <SWPadnos> however, if you are using stepconf, then those signals are likely connected to some motion pins that only turn on when you hit F2 (machine on)
[03:34:55] <cradek> those turn on the "servo amps" (or whatever you want) when you turn "machine on"
[03:36:41] <cradek> goodnight
[03:43:37] <KimK> Yes, "servo amps enable", that is exactly what I'm working on. So the Xen, Yen, and Zen in the manual were just examples? It should say so, I think. OK, axis.N.amp-enable-out, I'll look for it or similar, thanks, that may be what I needed.
[03:43:49] <KimK> Thanks very much to both of you
[03:44:07] <SWPadnos> where in the manual are Xen, Yen and Zen?
[03:44:11] <SWPadnos> youre welcome
[03:44:23] <SWPadnos> oh - you already said
[03:44:24] <KimK> p.67, 10.3.6
[03:45:22] <KimK> No problem. How many times have I or others asked you something you had already answered, LOL
[03:46:31] <SWPadnos> I don't recall ;)
[03:46:43] <KimK> Just for the log, this is what confused me: "For this reason there are already defined signals called ’Xen’, ’Yen’, ’Zen’."
[03:47:04] <SWPadnos> ok
[03:47:15] <SWPadnos> one thing to note is that they are called signals, not pins
[03:47:22] <SWPadnos> components never create signals
[03:48:11] <SWPadnos> note that this chapter starts by saying "The preferred way to set up a standard stepper machine is with the Step Configuration Wizard. See the Getting Started Guide."
[03:48:29] <SWPadnos> so everything in there can be in reference to stepconf (which those signal names are)
[03:49:40] <KimK> OK, my mistake, I thought that emc2 created and provided those signals. Stepconf creates signals, then? (or can, at least?)
[03:50:05] <SWPadnos> stepconf creates configurations that you load
[03:50:24] <SWPadnos> when you load them, the .hal files have commands for halcmd which will create signals
[03:51:01] <ursine> Anyone here who can help a newbie choose a control system? I've narrowed things down to Xylotex or HobbyCNC, but I'm open to suggestions.
[03:51:49] <KimK> SWPadnos: I haven't ever used stepconf, because I haven't really done anything with steppers. I'll probably have to at some point, just because of its popularity (by number installed) over servos.
[03:52:15] <SWPadnos> only if you want to use steppers connected to the parallel port
[03:52:27] <SWPadnos> it's meant for configuration of common, simple machines
[03:53:25] <KimK> ursine: we are happy to help anyone here, but don't be surprised if our recommendations run toward EMC2. See http://www.LinuxCNC.org/ for more info.
[03:53:52] <ursine> I intend to use EMC2,but how about the hardware?
[03:54:17] <SWPadnos> ursine, afraid I can't comment on either of those, they're a little smaller than anything I'm used to :)
[03:55:17] <KimK> ursine: what machinery are you wanting to control?
[03:55:35] <ursine> A home built.
[03:56:03] <SWPadnos> what size (torque, current, voltage) steppers, and how many of them?
[03:56:11] <KimK> tabletop mill? router? hot-wire-foam cutter?
[03:56:37] <ursine> Tabletop router/mill.
[03:57:14] <ursine> I don't have any spec on appropriate steppers, and that is one of the reason I'm here.
[03:57:37] <ursine> I'm looking at 3 axes only.
[03:57:43] <SWPadnos> oh, you haven't selected the motors yet?
[03:57:48] <ursine> Nope.
[03:58:09] <KimK> It's bargain-hunting time
[03:58:34] <SWPadnos> got a budget? :)
[03:58:35] <ursine> Not really. I would preffer to buy a complete package.
[03:58:46] <SWPadnos> (and no, "as little as possible" doesn't count)
[03:58:50] <SWPadnos> ok
[03:58:54] <ursine> The Xylotex and HobbyCNC systems come in about $300.
[03:59:03] <SWPadnos> with motors?
[03:59:29] <ursine> With motors, around 160 or 200 oz-in, if I recall correctly.
[04:00:31] <SWPadnos> depending on what kind of performance you want, you may want to consider getting a Geckodrive G540
[04:00:48] <ursine> Price level?
[04:01:00] <SWPadnos> you'll be looking at ~$500 for that, unless you wait a couple of months for their customer appreciation sale
[04:01:08] <SWPadnos> lemme look at these motors
[04:01:51] <SWPadnos> it's considerably more powerful: http://www.kelinginc.net/KL23H284-35-4B.pdf
[04:01:57] <SWPadnos> these motors are 387 oz-in
[04:02:16] <SWPadnos> the drive is a single unit that can run 4 motors, for $299
[04:02:42] <SWPadnos> it has a built-in breakout board with analog spindle output, a couple of output relays and a couple of optoisolated inputs
[04:03:12] <ursine> Do i really need all that power?
[04:03:16] <SWPadnos> it also has a charge pump monitor circuit, and it will shut down the drives and spindle if the PC dies
[04:03:20] <SWPadnos> darned good question
[04:03:49] <SWPadnos> what kind of speeds do you want to get, and what do you want to cut?
[04:04:14] <toastydeath> sales has told us we need to get them parts tommorow
[04:04:30] <toastydeath> no machines open, and only one day to program, set up, and run a whole batch of parts
[04:04:32] <ursine> Future plans go no further than Kleinbauer's Phoenix. As for speed, I'm in no hurry.
[04:04:33] <toastydeath> v. realistic
[04:05:03] <ursine> I'll be cutting nothing worse than, maybe plexiglas. Mostly balsa.
[04:05:23] <SWPadnos> oh, ok. then you need to spend money on a high speed spindle, not on motors
[04:05:37] <SWPadnos> actually, you need good motors too, but you can only spend so much
[04:05:52] <ursine> I have a spindle.
[04:07:07] <SWPadnos> that's actually a reasonable cutting area
[04:07:39] <SWPadnos> how much research have you done into motor sizing and stepper motor characteristics?
[04:08:29] <ursine> Just beginning to research size. I've done a reasonable amount of reading about motor characteristics, however.
[04:08:41] <SWPadnos> have you seen this: http://geckodrive.com/upload/Step_motor_basics.pdf
[04:09:10] <ursine> Not yet. But I'm going to take a quick look now.
[04:09:25] <SWPadnos> definitely a good read
[04:09:36] <SWPadnos> I don't think he even plugs his own products in that one :)
[04:10:50] <SWPadnos> incidentally, those motors are $49 each, so they're not all that expensive
[04:10:52] <ursine> A quick look through it shows me that it is only a bit more detail on what I've already found.
[04:11:23] <SWPadnos> ok, it's the torque/speed curves, and how higher voltage affects them that should be interesting
[04:12:00] <ursine> I'm aware of what's going on there, and the differences between bipolar and unipolar motors in that area.
[04:12:07] <SWPadnos> ok
[04:12:18] <SWPadnos> HobbyCNC is bipolar, isn't it?
[04:12:29] <SWPadnos> I know the others are bipolar choppers
[04:12:29] <Jymmm> nuhuh
[04:12:37] <ursine> No, unipolar. Xylotex is bipolar.
[04:12:40] <SWPadnos> oh
[04:12:45] <SWPadnos> Xylotex then, hands down
[04:12:53] <Jymmm> ew
[04:13:05] <SWPadnos> well, of the two anyway
[04:13:11] <Jymmm> neither
[04:13:13] <ursine> Why "ew"?
[04:13:23] <Jymmm> they go kablewy
[04:13:24] <SWPadnos> Jymmm may try to talk you out of it, he's got actual experience :)
[04:13:34] <ursine> If neither, than what?
[04:13:34] <Jymmm> so does jepler
[04:13:39] <SWPadnos> yeah, it's true that the specs on those are "wishful thinking"
[04:13:41] <SWPadnos> gecko
[04:13:43] <Jymmm> gecko 4 axis thingy
[04:13:52] <Jymmm> 5??
[04:13:52] <SWPadnos> G540 or G250
[04:14:02] <SWPadnos> G540 is the 4-axis one
[04:14:04] <Jymmm> Yeah, 540 has breakout and all connections
[04:14:15] <SWPadnos> I suggested that, but it is $150 more than the Xylotex
[04:14:20] <SWPadnos> (tiny IMO, but it's not my money)
[04:14:33] <Jymmm> Sure, but you 'll spend it in the breakout board alone
[04:14:38] <SWPadnos> we did some testing with jepler's machine actually
[04:14:56] <SWPadnos> using the gecko, he was able to get significantly higher speeds
[04:15:16] <SWPadnos> but I don't remember if that was before or after we noticed that the current setting was too high for the motor :)
[04:15:19] <Jymmm> Plus Mariss' you fuck it and give it up guarntee
[04:15:30] <SWPadnos> yeah, that is a nice one
[04:15:37] <Jymmm> You just can't beat that.
[04:15:52] <SWPadnos> one time only "oops, I made this mistake and broke it" and he'll replace it anyway
[04:16:13] <mozmck> look here for another package deal based on geckos http://www.candcnc.com/BladeRunner.htm
[04:16:18] <Jymmm> ursine: If you blowup a Gecko drive becasue you made a mistake and you tell him that, he will replace it one time at no charge.
[04:16:22] <ursine> I have the Gecko site in another window, but I'm having trouble locating complete systems.
[04:16:38] <ursine> I see the pieces, but no packages.
[04:16:45] <mozmck> disclaimer: I work there ;)
[04:16:55] <SWPadnos> geckodrive doesn't sell packages or motors
[04:17:01] <SWPadnos> just drives and the G540
[04:17:07] <SWPadnos> and G-Rex, but you don't need one of those
[04:17:26] <KimK> I hadn't heard about that guarantee, that is good. In fact, that rates an SWP patented "heh".
[04:17:35] <Jymmm> ursine: http://www.geckodrive.com/product.aspx?c=3&i=14469
[04:17:56] <ursine> I have that open right now
[04:18:15] <SWPadnos> mozmck, those seem a little pricey to me
[04:18:19] <ursine> Price?
[04:18:26] <Jymmm> ursine: Mind you that has a built in breakout board as well $299
[04:18:34] <Jymmm> for four axis
[04:18:39] <SWPadnos> I guess they do include a power supply and enclosures and stuff
[04:19:04] <ursine> How about a 3-axis controller, which is all I need for the foreseeable future.
[04:19:39] <mozmck> SWPadnos: they include the breakout board, enclosures, PS, motors, and everything is assembled completely
[04:20:02] <SWPadnos> yeah, that's true
[04:20:24] <SWPadnos> it just seems like a lot to me, the lowest price kit there is $725 for a 3-axis
[04:20:27] <mozmck> plus an I/O card with relays and inputs for all your limits and homes.
[04:20:40] <ursine> That's beyond budget limits.
[04:20:51] <SWPadnos> oh - a separate I/O card, or something that uses serial/USB?
[04:20:57] <mozmck> yeah, I don't mess with the pricing :-)
[04:21:01] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:21:30] <ursine> I'm open to all suggestions. I can push to maybe $400, but beyond that . . . .
[04:21:38] <mozmck> no, it is a separate breakout from the main breakout board
[04:21:47] <SWPadnos> can you wait until August/September?
[04:21:53] <SWPadnos> mozmck, yeah, I see it now
[04:22:00] <SWPadnos> plugs into a second parport
[04:22:06] <ursine> probably.
[04:22:07] <SWPadnos> PORT2 card
[04:22:19] <mozmck> the hobbycnc is a kit you have to assemble it looks like, and no power supply.
[04:22:25] <SWPadnos> ok, geckodrive generally has a customer appreciation sale around that time
[04:22:41] <SWPadnos> for the most part, they charge everyone the 100 or 1000-piece prices
[04:23:09] <SWPadnos> I don't know if they'll include the G540 in that, but they'll probably include the G250, which is the actual stepper driver card
[04:23:38] <SWPadnos> you can use 3x G250 plus a breakout board instead of a G540, though the G540 is a very slick little package
[04:23:58] <Jymmm> mozmck: Care to pass along a very biased opinion? =)
[04:24:27] <mozmck> ?
[04:24:28] <SWPadnos> if you're looking for an assembled kit, you're going to have to severely downgrade performance as a tradeoff for the packaging and assembly
[04:24:37] <SWPadnos> asbestos suits ON!
[04:24:55] <ursine> I don't mind soldering . . . .
[04:25:05] <Jymmm> mozmck: the website needs a SERIOUS makeover... maybe even demolition and start over
[04:25:10] <mozmck> I try not to be too biased!
[04:25:28] <SWPadnos> I don't mean putting components on a board, I mean selecting all your own components (steppers, breakout, drivers, enclosures, power supply ...)
[04:25:36] <mozmck> :-) I'll tell Tom. He does the website.
[04:25:42] <SWPadnos> uh-oh
[04:25:42] <Jymmm> ok
[04:25:45] <SWPadnos> now you've done it
[04:26:03] <Jymmm> not yet,
[04:26:11] <Jymmm> working up to it
[04:26:12] <ursine> I don't have the background to engineer electronics.
[04:26:18] <SWPadnos> it is true though - that first row which shows a picture of a system on the left, and Free! on the right, is a little misleading
[04:26:41] <SWPadnos> until you read the text which says they're talking about the mach config files or test software or something
[04:27:05] <mozmck> but I wouldn't disagree with you too much there!
[04:27:26] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:27:28] <mozmck> I haven't looked at the website that much.
[04:27:35] <SWPadnos> ursine, you don't have to do any electrical engineering
[04:27:48] <ursine> The website points at HobbyCNC, btw.
[04:27:53] <SWPadnos> it's more like getting stereo components instead of a single system
[04:27:59] <Jymmm> mozmck: Plus the fact having each item on different pages give beter ranking in the search engines
[04:28:17] <SWPadnos> their stuff works with EMC2, so it's listed
[04:28:31] <SWPadnos> for some applications, it's probably useful
[04:28:33] <Jymmm> mozmck: plus someone can pass a link to someone else and know exactly what the other is talking about / looking at.
[04:29:01] <mozmck> Jymmm: hmmm, yeah. I'll have to look it over and pass some suggestions along.
[04:29:16] <jimbo132> My Mesa electronics arrived today.
[04:29:27] <SWPadnos> ursine, I assumed you were talking about the linuxcnc.org website, listing hobbycnc in the compatible hardware section?
[04:29:36] <SWPadnos> jimbo132, cool - have fun with it :)
[04:29:37] <ursine> Yes.
[04:29:42] <SWPadnos> it's nice stuff
[04:29:54] <SWPadnos> ursine, ok. the website isn't biased, but we can be :)
[04:29:55] <jimbo132> Any advice on the connections
[04:29:58] <ursine> But does it work decently?
[04:30:05] <SWPadnos> jimbo132, be careful :)
[04:30:06] <KimK> jimbo132: Cool, I'm a mesa fan too
[04:30:18] <Jymmm> jimbo132: blow torch and silly putty
[04:30:22] <SWPadnos> I wouldn't spend my money on it, but it may work for you
[04:30:44] <ursine> Performance isn't an issue. Cost and reliability are.
[04:31:13] <Jymmm> I'm biased towards gecko now becasue I spoke for 2 hours on the phone with him for one
[04:31:14] <SWPadnos> I can't tell you whether it will be adequate for your application, only you can decide that
[04:31:43] <mozmck> ursine: I don't know about hobbycnc, but we have used Xylotex in the past, and they have worked fairly well.
[04:31:46] <Jymmm> and I like the way he does business
[04:31:48] <jimbo132> No blow torch or silly putty handy how about super glue and barbed wire :)
[04:31:50] <SWPadnos> I will say this though: given that hobbyCNC is unipolar, I would avoid it unless you get 8-wire steppers
[04:32:11] <Jymmm> mozmck: So have I, but no stall protection
[04:32:12] <SWPadnos> since there are almost no higher-performance unipolar drives, you'd have to toss the motors too if you decide to upgrade
[04:32:31] <mozmck> stall protection?
[04:32:36] <Jymmm> mozmck: and 35V MAX, including BEMF
[04:32:41] <ursine> Yeah, I would go for bipolar motors wired as unipolar.
[04:32:53] <SWPadnos> with the Xylotex, at least you're only spending $100 or so on the actual drive, but you can still use the motors on a future system
[04:32:56] <SWPadnos> ok
[04:32:58] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: whats the word I'm looking for?
[04:33:09] <SWPadnos> shit?
[04:33:14] <mozmck> we ran a small desktop unit for a good while with it, I think on 24V
[04:33:26] <SWPadnos> midband resonance compensation?
[04:33:31] <Jymmm> thank you
[04:33:38] <Jymmm> mozmck: what SWPadnos said
[04:34:01] <mozmck> but the gecko 251s definitely give better performance all the way around even on this small machine.
[04:34:09] <SWPadnos> Jymmm, are you still interested in getting your CNC to work?
[04:34:19] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Yeah
[04:34:23] <SWPadnos> ok
[04:34:41] <ursine> Is there a plan for a complete system based on the 251 anywhere?
[04:34:48] <SWPadnos> what size motors do you have? (NEMA 23, 34 ...)
[04:34:57] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: 23's
[04:35:00] <SWPadnos> ursine, hmmm. there are probably several
[04:35:04] <ursine> Motors to be purchased after selection.
[04:35:07] <mozmck> ursine: plan?
[04:35:10] <SWPadnos> one from each company that makes a breakout board :)
[04:35:22] <ursine> Some kind of drawing and partlist.
[04:35:30] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: were you asking me what size?
[04:35:36] <SWPadnos> Jymmm, yes
[04:36:25] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: 23's all around, Z is good, Y seems to be good, though I do have a #$ bracket for Y, X, well that's just a PITA.
[04:36:53] <SWPadnos> what voltage is your supply?
[04:37:17] <ursine> To be selected along with the rest of the "stuff"
[04:37:24] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I have 48VDC@ 6A iirc on the amperage
[04:37:35] <SWPadnos> ok, perfect for a 250/251/540
[04:37:53] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I have parker drives now... OEM750's
[04:38:02] <SWPadnos> ursine, I don't know where to find a list like that. most any place you see one will likely be trying to sell you some of the parts on the list
[04:38:09] <SWPadnos> yep
[04:38:21] <ursine> Don't mind that, if the quality is decent.
[04:38:42] <SWPadnos> good breakout boards cost about what you want to pay for your drives though
[04:38:52] <SWPadnos> the Xylotex is $100-ish for 3-axis, IIRC
[04:39:00] <ursine> Yes.
[04:39:05] <SWPadnos> and a good breakout board is probably $90 or more
[04:39:19] <Jymmm> if you can find a GOOD one
[04:39:25] <Jymmm> haven't found one yet
[04:40:17] <SWPadnos> what you should do is figure out what connections you need for the machine (limit and home switches, stop button, accessory / spindle controls, motor amp enable ...), and then go looking for the things you need to interface to the machine
[04:40:36] <SWPadnos> you can't choose an I/O setup until you know the I/O you need
[04:40:45] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Why were you asking about electronics/electrical?
[04:40:48] <SWPadnos> and the drives / breakout board are the I/O setup
[04:41:11] <SWPadnos> Jymmm, well, I have this G540 and a few NEMA34 motors sitting around ...
[04:41:31] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: oz-in ?
[04:41:35] <SWPadnos> 384
[04:41:39] <Jymmm> whoa
[04:41:40] <SWPadnos> or 387 or something
[04:41:57] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:42:03] <SWPadnos> yeah, they're almost usable :)
[04:42:29] <SWPadnos> damned small too
[04:42:37] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: so we shove more power on X till it grinds itself to stripped threads?
[04:42:37] <SWPadnos> or they seem that way to me anyway
[04:42:41] <SWPadnos> yeah!
[04:43:47] <SWPadnos> I'd remake that bearing bracket first, with a much wider base
[04:44:02] <SWPadnos> you'd lose travel, but if it works then it's an improvement
[04:44:25] <ursine> I know that I don't want anything more than 3-axis control with limit switches. I'm far more interested in various computational
[04:44:32] <ursine> problems than fancy hardware.
[04:45:00] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: actually, might be able to backset the mount ponton the undercarriage so no loss of travel
[04:45:06] <ursine> NB: Kleinboauer uses 40 oz-inch motors (so he says) for the Phoenix.
[04:45:25] <SWPadnos> and got 12 IPM
[04:45:26] <ursine> Oooops. 50 oz-in. , not 40.
[04:45:37] <SWPadnos> I didn't notice if that was rapid or cutting speed though
[04:46:03] <ursine> I could care less. With programs that I am running taking weeks to finish, 12 IPM would do as well as 12 IPS.
[04:46:04] <SWPadnos> that means it takes 2 minutes to traverse across his table
[04:46:14] <SWPadnos> uh
[04:46:40] <SWPadnos> I guess that depends on whether the program takes weeks due to motor speed or some other limitation
[04:46:55] <SWPadnos> if your spindle only goes 100 RPM, then yes, the steppers aren't going to be an issue
[04:47:17] <ursine> Takes weeks because the problems are inherently difficult. I run a cluster at a college.
[04:47:41] <SWPadnos> ah, computations taking weeks I can understand
[04:48:03] <SWPadnos> does the machining depend on the results though?
[04:48:12] <SWPadnos> (machining fractals or something?)
[04:48:15] <ursine> It might <grin>
[04:48:19] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:48:41] <Jymmm> oh xylotex has thermal issues too, so use lots of fans
[04:49:10] <SWPadnos> one thing to remember, machining wood or plastic actually needs very high spindle speeds, and also very high speed movement
[04:49:17] <ursine> Looking at various comments they make, the thermal issues are fairly clear, and that set off my alarm bells.
[04:49:29] <SWPadnos> if you slow the spindle, you will wear the cutter faster (I think)
[04:49:41] <SWPadnos> if you have a fast spindle and slow motors, you'll burn the work
[04:49:51] <ursine> Well, my spindle will be running at about 5,000 rpm <grin>.
[04:50:15] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[04:50:18] <toastydeath> what size cutter
[04:50:39] <mozmck> not very fast for wood with small cutters
[04:50:45] <ursine> small diameter burrs, and engrabers, I think. At least for the time being.
[04:50:52] <SWPadnos> then you'll want at least 50-100 IPM feed rate
[04:50:59] <ursine> Yeah, engravers.
[04:51:14] <SWPadnos> that's for 0.005 - 0.010 feed per tooth
[04:51:18] <SWPadnos> which is probably a bit low
[04:51:23] <toastydeath> .010?
[04:51:38] <SWPadnos> oh - that would be per rev, wouldn't it
[04:51:43] <toastydeath> .005 i can understand but .010 is a bit much per tooth
[04:51:50] <toastydeath> unless it's like a 1" endmill
[04:51:54] <SWPadnos> in plastic and wood?
[04:52:09] <toastydeath> i'd be concerned about flute clogging
[04:52:25] <SWPadnos> I guess with engravers you'd want a little less, but not 12 IPM
[04:52:42] <toastydeath> yeah you are still talking up in the middle two digit range
[04:53:10] <SWPadnos> in any case, ursine needs to decide, since it's his machine
[04:53:24] <toastydeath> or drop the spindle spee
[04:53:25] <toastydeath> d
[04:53:29] <toastydeath> if all that's possible is 12 ipm
[04:54:09] <ursine> Time for dinner. It looks like consensus, with budget taken into account, is HobbyCNC controller with bipolar motors will have to do for the time being.
[04:54:26] <mozmck> toastydeath: routers will run at 20000 rpm and more
[04:54:28] <SWPadnos> hmmm. I do not think that word means what you think it means
[04:54:32] <ursine> If the performance isn't adequate, an upgrade to Gecko will be in the cards.
[04:54:48] <toastydeath> mozmck: not if they can't sustain more than 12 IPM they won't
[04:54:50] <toastydeath> not for long
[04:55:16] <toastydeath> or i guess they'll run, there just won't be a cutter in the machine for long
[04:55:34] <mozmck> hmm, that slow and it will burn the wood I guess.
[04:56:32] <mozmck> but working wood is quite a bit different than metal.
[04:56:50] <toastydeath> yes.
[04:57:27] <ursine> Indeed. Unlikely that the wood will burn unless the cutter is moving too fast and steps are being lost anyway.
[04:57:47] <toastydeath> the wood burning has to do with the mismatch between feed vs rpm
[04:57:53] <toastydeath> nothing to do with the cutter speed
[04:57:56] <mozmck> I use 1/32" bits in wood and run it at around 25000
[04:58:27] <mozmck> moving pretty slow by hand
[04:59:02] <toastydeath> i'd be shocked if you moved it less than 20-30 ipm by hand.
[04:59:03] <ursine> What I meant was that a high-speed spindle won't burn the wood if it is not trying to move too fast: mismatch between feed and rpm.
[04:59:36] <toastydeath> ursine: other way around.
[04:59:38] <ursine> Well, then, be shocked. I move considerably slower than 20-30 ipm when I am using the rotary tool on bals.
[05:00:20] <mozmck> I think the same here. but I am routing rosewood and ebony. balsa is almost like routing air
[05:00:22] <toastydeath> a 1/32 bit at 25000 rpm
[05:00:30] <toastydeath> is only going a couple hundred SFM
[05:00:33] <toastydeath> which is nothing
[05:00:45] <ursine> I only get into trouble when I apply too much pressure (i.e., try to feed too fast).
[05:01:08] <SWPadnos> there are (at least) two effects here
[05:01:30] <SWPadnos> one is having the cutting speed (not feed rate, but tool RPM) too high
[05:01:48] <SWPadnos> which causes friction and therefore burning unless you move the tool fast enough (feed rate)
[05:01:56] <mozmck> the smaller the bit, the faster the spindle needs to run for a given feedrate
[05:02:38] <SWPadnos> if you have a small tool running fast, it's still not too high a surface speed, but pushing too hard will cause rubbing of the trailing edge of the cutter on the work (and may also snap the tool)
[05:03:16] <SWPadnos> that extra scraping along the tool also causes friction, and therefore burning
[05:03:16] <ursine> Yes.
[05:03:29] <SWPadnos> toastydeath, did I get that right? :)
[05:03:41] <toastydeath> swpadnos: yep
[05:03:44] <toastydeath> i agree completely.
[05:03:46] <SWPadnos> phew
[05:03:52] <ursine> Matches my experience (over several decades of working with balsa).
[05:03:55] <SWPadnos> back to slashdot for me, or maybe bed
[05:04:08] <ursine> Thanks for your time.
[05:04:13] <toastydeath> bai 2 u
[05:04:15] <mozmck> heh, bed for me.
[05:04:17] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: /. wth?!
[05:04:28] <SWPadnos> well, it's been a while
[05:05:08] <Jymmm> fien
[05:05:12] <Jymmm> fine even
[05:06:03] <toastydeath> lol
[05:06:59] <Jymmm> wth... this MacMini doesn't come with IR, but has the module RIGHT THERE!!!!!
[05:07:38] <toastydeath> very cuil
[05:08:25] <Jymmm> ?
[05:08:41] <toastydeath> internet meme, sry
[05:08:46] <toastydeath> bizarre
[05:12:21] <Jymmm> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5540852/Mother-duck-stands-on-duckling.html
[05:13:09] <toastydeath> hahaha
[05:13:11] <toastydeath> slow news day
[05:16:19] <toastydeath> so we get these jobs at work today, due the 19th
[05:16:21] <toastydeath> that's tommorow
[05:16:30] <toastydeath> they have to be programmed, set up, checked
[05:16:34] <toastydeath> that's two days of work right there
[05:16:38] <toastydeath> even if we had a machine open - and we don't
[05:16:52] <Jymmm> something is terribly wrong... SN lookup shows no IR. I see the module right there, looked on the USB bus and if finds a IR receiver,,,,, fsckers
[05:17:34] <toastydeath> ownt
[05:19:03] <Jymmm> bastards... it works!!!!
[05:19:28] <KimK> toastydeath: Do you have time to engrave on one of their blanks "A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part", LOL?
[05:19:53] <toastydeath> hahah considering a couple folks just got sent to mastercam training, yes
[05:19:56] <toastydeath> we have time to do that
[05:20:34] <Jymmm> blanks?
[05:20:48] <KimK> raw material
[05:20:51] <toastydeath> jymmm: the sawcut blocks of material that will become the parts they want
[05:21:08] <toastydeath> and they need to be stupid accurate, on top of that
[05:21:10] <toastydeath> i mean, what?
[05:21:19] <Jymmm> heh, I also think ammo
[05:21:20] <toastydeath> they've got like four very accurately located and toleranced bores
[05:21:23] <Jymmm> always
[05:22:12] <toastydeath> lol
[05:22:33] <KimK> So they toleranced to .0001" because "the CAD package is set to 4 digits and it always does that." ?
[05:22:41] <toastydeath> very similar, yes
[05:22:49] <toastydeath> but it's due to overthinking the assembly process
[05:23:12] <toastydeath> the assembly guy uses the pins for rough alignment
[05:23:24] <toastydeath> this is for an air bearing slide
[05:23:43] <toastydeath> but they're like, +.0004/-.0000 on diameter and to a true position of .002"
[05:24:14] <toastydeath> and i talked to the high precision assembly guy, and he goes
[05:24:26] <toastydeath> "yeah i just use a sloppy pin, it's too hard to get it aligned with the tight pins"
[05:24:51] <toastydeath> so we're holding a .0004" total tolerance that nobody uses.
[05:24:52] <KimK> Well, "Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, and cut it off with a fire ax."
[05:24:59] <toastydeath> exactly.
[05:26:14] <KimK> "...that nobody uses." Well, the pin guy should appreciate that he can always use the same size sloppy pin, LOL.
[05:26:23] <toastydeath> hahah, he'd be fine with anything
[05:26:29] <toastydeath> as long as it's got like .015" of slop
[05:26:51] <toastydeath> get this, we vacuum the air bearings down onto the slide, and essentially glue them in place
[05:26:57] <toastydeath> the housing just has to have enough space for glue
[05:27:09] <toastydeath> it DOESN'T need to be aligned - the process does that automatically
[05:28:53] <KimK> Reminds me of a coupler pin deal for a railroad. The pin was 3" or so, +/- .005". OK that's fine, whatever. But they were dropping it into a 3.500" hole. What?
[05:28:55] <toastydeath> we're a bunch of winners, is what we are.
[05:29:02] <toastydeath> ahahahaha
[05:29:09] <toastydeath> that .495 of clearance
[05:29:11] <toastydeath> is CRITICAL
[05:29:31] <KimK> hahaha
[05:30:50] <KimK> Well good luck to you, however it works out
[05:30:56] <toastydeath> oh, i don't care
[05:31:01] <toastydeath> i'll get around to it when i get around to it
[05:31:12] <toastydeath> your quote from earlier very succintly sums up how everyone feels about it
[05:32:01] <toastydeath> somebody in upper management has been sitting on this job for weeks
[05:32:06] <toastydeath> and now they want it done, now now now
[05:32:07] <toastydeath> tough shit
[05:32:13] <toastydeath> <rant />
[05:32:19] <KimK> hahaha
[05:33:22] <toastydeath> i am really, really curious whose idea it was to give us a job one day before it was due to SHIP
[05:33:29] <toastydeath> i think i'll go find out tommorow
[05:33:38] <Jymmm> management of course
[05:34:05] <toastydeath> it used to be engineering - they'd sit on drawings for years
[05:34:12] <toastydeath> and they'd never be ready when a job came up
[05:34:21] <toastydeath> but that guy got laid off and now engineering is like a drag car
[05:34:43] <toastydeath> so i'm curious who's making the retarded decisions now
[05:34:54] <toastydeath> it's either the VP of manufacturing or sales
[05:35:02] <KimK> If it turns out to be a boss with pointy hair, send me a picture
[05:35:04] <toastydeath> sales has done some pretty retarded stuff lately
[05:35:07] <toastydeath> so it might be them
[05:35:21] <toastydeath> hahah, we unfortunately don't have a true phb =(
[05:35:29] <toastydeath> only in spirit
[05:36:34] <toastydeath> we do, however, have one of the owners who insisted that you could put a R, I, and J word all on the same G2 line.
[05:36:53] <toastydeath> and the vp of manufacturing has zero idea what anybody is doing at any given time
[05:37:16] <toastydeath> so he holds meetings perpetually so that he has some hope of keeping up with what the business is actually doing day to day
[05:38:22] <toastydeath> the QC manager is also kinda retarded, but other than that we're doing pretty good on the intelligent employee front
[05:38:39] <toastydeath> "Lou, you're QC, right?"
[05:38:42] <toastydeath> "Yeah man, why?"
[05:39:12] <toastydeath> "Well, you've got a caliper in your hand and you're measuring a dimension that's +.0005/-.0000 and I'm curious as to what you're hoping to accomplish there."
[05:39:22] <toastydeath> "Oh uh, good point."
[05:42:24] <KimK> That's a good one. Someone nearby heard me laughing and I had to explain.
[05:43:22] <toastydeath> haha.
[05:52:48] <Jymmm> i dont get it?
[05:57:51] <toastydeath> you can't measure a +.0005/-.0000 tolerance with a caliper.
[05:58:15] <toastydeath> and he, being the lead QC guy, should know that.
[06:01:54] <toastydeath> he might as well have taken out a ruler
[06:02:03] <toastydeath> and just kind of held it up
[06:06:51] <Jymmm> oh calipers only go to .001
[06:07:17] <Jymmm> well some goto .0005
[06:08:00] <toastydeath> and they have an accuracy of +/-.001
[06:08:06] <Jymmm> truw
[06:08:08] <Jymmm> e
[06:08:33] <Jymmm> well, we all have those days
[06:11:17] <toastydeath> lou has one of those lives
[06:12:24] <toastydeath> he's terrible at all forms of measurement
[06:12:32] <toastydeath> he'll crash the cmm probes into stuff
[06:12:41] <toastydeath> mistake mics for c-clamps
[06:17:47] <Jymmm> Huh? How do you mistake a mic for a c-clamp.... not even close. One doens't even have a readout
[06:30:14] <toastydeath> jymmm: it's another in-joke, i guess
[06:30:30] <toastydeath> using a mic as a c-clamp is reference to someone who cranks on a mic to get it to read what they want
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[11:07:25] <anonimasu> hello
[11:09:11] <Vq^> hiya
[11:10:54] <anonimasu> what's up?
[11:15:08] <Vq^> coding :)
[11:20:40] <anonimasu> I see
[11:20:49] <anonimasu> im trying to figure out what to do
[11:24:01] <anonimasu> what parts I need to make :]
[11:25:21] <archivist> http://www.5bears.com/cnc.htm
[11:31:32] <anonimasu> I need a toolchanger for the big mill
[11:31:35] <anonimasu> -_-
[11:32:08] <archivist> tool changing and placing in the right place ... /me needs
[11:32:21] <anonimasu> 5bears was nice when updated...
[11:32:27] <anonimasu> my issue is that I need a drawbar
[11:32:36] <archivist> he seems to have got lazy
[11:32:45] <anonimasu> 5 years ago :/
[11:33:05] <anonimasu> If you want to visit the old 5 Bears Metalworking Hobby Pages, here they are. I know I haven't updated them in ages, and I'm not sure that I will again. I continue to enjoy my metalworking hobby, but have branched into a business that I find every bit as fulfilling,
[11:33:10] <anonimasu> http://www.5bears.com/
[11:34:23] <archivist> I saw that... some ideas though
[11:35:14] <anonimasu> yep
[11:35:15] <anonimasu> :)
[11:36:58] <archivist> that drawbar site was also good the other week
[11:37:24] <archivist> http://www.henriksplace.se/CNC/New_machine_BT30_Spindle_Drawbar.html
[11:40:01] <anonimasu> yep, but hard to make accurately
[11:40:28] <anonimasu> you know, I've been playing with the thought of making a batch of them..(like having them ground)
[11:41:09] <anonimasu> they cant be so expensive to ID and od grind..
[11:41:14] <archivist> depends on the speed.. do you need accuracy
[11:41:21] <anonimasu> the ball retainer and stuff..
[11:41:40] <anonimasu> I figure making 5 would offset the cost pretty nicely and make grinding cheaper
[11:43:04] <archivist> hmm I should measure the pull load on morse taper collets and maybe add buttons and drawbar
[11:43:40] <anonimasu> only reason I'd want to have it ground is that tolderances will be dead on..
[11:43:47] <anonimasu> I'd hate to drop at tool.
[11:44:30] <anonimasu> though that henrols design eleminates most problems with that..
[11:44:39] <anonimasu> but, taking a chance... no thanks
[11:47:08] <archivist> need a cnc lathe to mass produce buttons :((
[11:51:56] <anonimasu> :)
[11:52:08] <anonimasu> use the mill as a lathe..
[11:52:18] <anonimasu> and use the table forgang tooling
[11:52:21] <anonimasu> err gang..
[11:53:13] <archivist> I have thought of tools on the rotary :)
[11:56:03] <anonimasu> that would work..
[11:56:09] <anonimasu> but gang tooling is easier I think and just use offsets..
[11:56:14] <anonimasu> brb, walking the dog
[12:26:55] <skunkworks_> jepler: any luck?
[12:29:15] <anonimasu> iab
[12:36:18] <jepler> skunkworks_: I didn't have much time to play last night, but yes and no
[12:36:29] <jepler> skunkworks_: hooked directly to a 20V supply it runs the X axis around pretty good
[12:37:26] <jepler> unfortunately, the coupling doesn't fit through the box that rides on the X axis; I kinda assumed that two holes were the same size (the two holes the coupling has to fit through), but one is different
[12:38:07] <jepler> hopefully cradek can simply turn down the coupling, but it's complicated because it's press-fit to the dowel pin which is press-fit through the bearing
[12:38:15] <jepler> press fit + locktite in the case of the coupling
[12:39:31] <jepler> I haven't wired it to the servo amp yet so another thing I don't know is what current it was running at; it's possible it was above the continuous rating of the motor
[12:40:54] <skunkworks_> did it seem to be straining?
[12:41:20] <jepler> I don't think I'm good at gauging that
[12:41:27] <skunkworks_> (do you get current feedback from the masa card?)
[12:43:59] <jepler> I'm not sure how the 7i30 works. It has a 1A/3A jumper that sets the maximum current. But does that mean that if I send no more than 71% PWM that I'll stay within the continuous region of my motor? (71% of 3A = 2.13A is the continuous rating)
[12:45:43] <skunkworks_> no. because even if you have the pwm set at 71% - the current could still reach 3a.
[12:46:09] <jepler> that's what I thought.
[12:50:37] <jepler> I'll have to look at the board. The jumper obviously picks one of two Vrefs for the current regulator. Maybe by hooking an appropriate resistor across the "3A" jumper position I could actually set a 2.1A limit..
[13:03:45] <skunkworks_> If it were me - I would set it to 3 amps - tune it so that under normal running you never reach that. If you really get fancy - couldn't you do something fancy in hal that would in effect measure the average current by the pwm setting? Maybe have it sample and if the average is over a setpoint for more than say 1 second - it would estop.
[13:04:16] <jepler> cradek has a feature like that on his mill
[13:04:28] <jepler> but if there's no relation between average pwm and average current, how can you tell for sure?
[13:04:51] <skunkworks_> good question.. I might not be thinking it thru very well.
[13:06:58] <SWPadnos> average current should track the PWM duty cycle (or be lower)
[13:07:01] <skunkworks_> some sort of rpm/pwm% mumble something
[13:07:33] <SWPadnos> if you never exceed 71% duty cycle onthe PWM, you shouldn't exceed 71% average current
[13:07:58] <SWPadnos> but the peaks may hit the hardware limit
[13:08:03] <skunkworks_> but if the motor is stalled - 71% would be max current.
[13:08:20] <SWPadnos> oh, is it a velocity mode drive?
[13:08:47] <SWPadnos> I thought it was a "turn on the FETs this much" mode drive :)
[13:10:11] <BJT-Work> any one have a clue? http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/catid,10/id,445/lang,en/
[13:11:23] <skunkworks_> BJT-Work: is he running emc1?
[13:11:40] <skunkworks_> (sounds like it) ;)
[13:11:41] <BJT-Work> skunkworks_ dunno
[13:11:58] <BJT-Work> I'll ask
[13:12:49] <BJT-Work> what tipped you off?
[13:13:17] <cradek> this is a classic case of asking the wrong question: "how do I implement my chosen solution" instead of "how do I solve my problem"
[13:13:26] <BJT-Work> * BJT-Work listens to a little Pink Floyd
[13:13:43] <skunkworks_> adding additional inputs/outputs on emc2 are strait forward. (emc - it is not)
[13:13:59] <SWPadnos> adding them to iocontrol may not be as straightforward as you think
[13:14:11] <BJT-Work> ok, I never could get EMC 1 to run
[13:14:21] <SWPadnos> adding to motion should be a change to a single define
[13:14:35] <SWPadnos> (I think motion is where the g-code accessible IOs are anyway)
[13:14:36] <skunkworks_> I don't think I am all here yet.
[13:14:50] <SWPadnos> me too, so ...
[13:14:59] <SWPadnos> in fact, I think I'll go get some of that fresh coffee
[13:26:34] <skunkworks_> SWPadnos: are you assuming that at 71%dc the motor just won't go above 2.13a? (The motor looks like it will take almost 10a)
[13:26:45] <skunkworks_> or am I not understanding again?
[13:27:00] <SWPadnos> well, it's hard to tell really
[13:27:11] <SWPadnos> especially because I'm not looking at any documentation :)
[13:27:20] <skunkworks_> http://highlab.com/~seb/bzr/fabrication/doc/vendor-docs/pittman/lcm_bulletin.pdf
[13:27:21] <skunkworks_> ;)
[13:27:33] <skunkworks_> 9x36
[13:28:06] <SWPadnos> I think reading that would be like work
[13:31:17] <skunkworks_> ;)
[13:33:59] <SWPadnos> it would be easier for me if jepler just got some 3A motors :)
[13:34:40] <skunkworks_> like I say - set it to 3 amps - tune and keep an eye on it. ;)
[13:36:06] <skunkworks_> he has an extra servo ;)
[13:36:26] <SWPadnos> oh right, servos
[13:48:16] <skunkworks_> SWPadnos: http://imagebin.ca/img/F4rZ1kDs.jpg
[13:48:56] <skunkworks_> cute
[13:53:31] <skunkworks_> heh
[13:53:43] <pcw> Servo Amps often have 3-5 times the continuous motor current capability
[13:53:45] <pcw> so if anything 3A is on the low side.
[13:53:59] <skunkworks_> Hi peter
[13:54:09] <pcw> Hi Skunk
[13:55:10] <jepler> it's safe to say I have a lot to learn about servos
[13:55:27] <pcw> Tuning will be fun...
[13:55:30] <cradek> if there's any problem where the motor is stalled and being pushed hard, you'll very quickly get a following error and it will turn off. I know that's not perfect protection, but it seems like it would help in most cases.
[13:55:54] <archivist> * archivist keeps seeing the bunny on another mailing list as well :)
[13:56:19] <BJT-Work> Hi Peter
[13:56:25] <archivist> classiccmp
[13:56:25] <skunkworks_> remember - I was going to get by with non-current limited drives..
[13:56:27] <cradek> my lathe has (came with) fuses on the servo amp output - I wonder if that's common, and if it does any good
[13:56:30] <pcw> Hi BJt
[13:57:07] <cradek> if you would fuse at 2A (slow-blow?) I wonder if you'd be any better off
[13:57:08] <pcw> Temperature sensing on the motors probably the best
[13:59:26] <jepler> cradek: the A3959 datasheet says that disconnecting the motor while it's powered can damage the driver, so that can't be a good idea
[13:59:35] <cradek> ah
[14:00:20] <jepler> or I guess it's the 7i30 manual that says it
[14:00:55] <pcw> I think it would be pretty hard to have a load that consistently
[14:00:57] <pcw> cause a 2A draw but didn't eventually cause a following error
[14:00:58] <pcw> because of the current getting above 3A
[14:01:41] <skunkworks_> I think it will 'just work' ;)
[14:01:52] <pcw> If you are worried, set the limit to 1A when doing initial testing
[14:02:10] <jepler> I'll probably do that, thanks
[14:02:56] <pcw> You will have to have a fair amount of feed-forward since the 7I30 is a "bare" PWM drive
[14:03:06] <pcw> (FF1)
[14:04:07] <skunkworks_> jepler: I forget - did you play around with tuning the servo/amp I had at the fest? should be similar to that.
[14:05:24] <geo01005> pcw, what do you mean by bare? It is just PWM rather than torque controlled?
[14:06:54] <pcw> Yes just a PWM drive with current limit but no current control
[14:06:56] <pcw> Ive considered making a new version with current control (only a few more R_Cs)
[14:07:12] <jepler> skunkworks_: I didn't play with the tuning at all, no
[14:07:55] <pcw> On a bare PWM drive FF1 is needed to compensate for the motors BEMF
[14:08:18] <geo01005> In my controls classes, all be ever talked about was current and torque control motor drives.
[14:09:47] <pcw> bare is simplest followed by torque(current) control followed by velocity control etc
[14:11:13] <geo01005> Sure, we just never talked about designing controls for bare PWM, wasn't sure if it was hard, or just not common to talk about.
[14:13:12] <pcw> Actually bare PWM drives have some advantages:
[14:13:14] <pcw> No noisy current control loop, much better high frequency
[14:13:15] <pcw> damping (low drive output impedance)
[14:13:17] <pcw> It just needs a smarter controller to work around its
[14:13:19] <pcw> inadequacies
[14:13:33] <skunkworks_> which is why we use emc ;)
[14:14:32] <skunkworks_> and once encoder velocity gets integrated into the pid...
[14:14:34] <pcw> Yep Nothing up the sleeves
[14:15:04] <jepler> is there a more appropriate control algorithm than pid+ff1?
[14:15:06] <skunkworks_> nothing can stop it bawhahahaha
[14:16:35] <pcw> That will be nice, but if our painful experience getting this to work work a PIC is any
[14:16:37] <pcw> guide, the velocity timestamp FPGA firmware needs some changes (I'm sure the will thrill Seb)
[14:17:41] <jepler> don't spring that on him before he's done with spi!
[14:18:03] <geo01005> Ha, Seb is so excited about working on hm2 that he dosen't even come here anymore ;)
[14:18:55] <pcw> I'm only familiar with PID
[14:18:57] <pcw> One that would help for bare PWM is modeling the motor
[14:18:58] <pcw> so the current can be estimated, and then adding inductance feed forward
[14:19:00] <pcw> to improve current bandwidth
[14:20:10] <pcw> SPI is pretty huge, I suspect most of it will have to be left as chip specific HAL setup
[14:20:49] <SWPadnos> pcw, I don't remember - do you have a single clock/multi data SPI function?
[14:20:56] <geo01005> I'm working on implementing (or will soon) a fuzzy control component for the hal. I'm not sure it will be usefull for motor control.
[14:20:58] <SWPadnos> like a single clock that runs several data lines
[14:21:11] <SWPadnos> err - s/runs/is used for/
[14:21:56] <pcw> Not yet but thats on my list (I have a resolver daughter card Im workong on and it uses a single clock multi data SPI A-D)
[14:22:28] <cradek> ooooh, that sounds neat
[14:22:44] <SWPadnos> funny, that's exactly what I have :)
[14:23:11] <cradek> resolvers are everywhere on old stuff perfect for emc retrofits.
[14:23:20] <pcw> That and the readdata skew and autosend
[14:23:41] <SWPadnos> oh interesting - you need simultaneous sampling for a digital resolver interface
[14:23:44] <SWPadnos> and high resolution
[14:23:57] <SWPadnos> are you using the AD7656 or something in that family?
[14:24:04] <archivist> * archivist quoting on a data collection job..... when's the a/d going to be ready
[14:24:29] <SWPadnos> it's ready now, but not in hostmot2 :)
[14:24:44] <pcw> Yes were using a 12 bit 1 MS simultaneous sampling 6 channel ADC
[14:24:56] <pcw> Something like that
[14:24:57] <geo01005> is Seb the only one with who knows enough about hm2 to add SPI?
[14:25:01] <SWPadnos> 1MS per channel or total?
[14:25:54] <SWPadnos> I think the one I have is 1.5MS total, on 6 channels
[14:26:03] <pcw> 1MS each 2 channels 2 data streams at once
[14:26:04] <SWPadnos> 16 bit though
[14:26:05] <pcw> theres a 2MS one also
[14:26:10] <SWPadnos> cool
[14:28:28] <skunkworks_> We are talking millisecond?
[14:28:32] <pcw> Trying to keep costs reasonable 12 bit should get us about 14 bit resolver resolution
[14:28:33] <pcw> depending on how many FIR decimation stages we can afford timing wise
[14:28:41] <SWPadnos> megasamples / second
[14:28:49] <skunkworks_> oh phew
[14:29:08] <pcw> (decimation/bandpass)
[14:30:44] <pcw> When done it will be a HM2 module, but will only fit in Spartan3
[14:30:51] <cradek> for direct drive to a .2" screw does that mean 81920/inch?
[14:31:59] <SWPadnos> half that
[14:32:04] <SWPadnos> err, no, 81920
[14:32:06] <SWPadnos> yes
[14:32:25] <cradek> I wasn't sure if resolvers give one cycle per turn, or more
[14:32:40] <SWPadnos> good question
[14:32:54] <SWPadnos> I'd be one per turn, since they rely on magnetics
[14:33:30] <SWPadnos> s/be/bet/
[14:34:19] <pcw> Resolvers may have more than one pole, often matching the
[14:34:21] <pcw> AC brushless servo poles so they can be used for commutation
[14:38:41] <pcw> bbl gotta walk the dog
[14:45:56] <anonimasu> :)
[15:03:06] <anonimasu> skunkworks: which one?
[15:03:17] <anonimasu> 8XX4 ?
[15:03:28] <anonimasu> it will draw 10.3 peak.. at stall...
[15:05:50] <anonimasu> * anonimasu yawns
[15:13:26] <skunkworks_> 9x36
[15:15:12] <archivist> !=42
[15:17:03] <anonimasu> hehe
[15:17:42] <anonimasu> I wonder about this pullstud stuff..
[15:17:52] <anonimasu> the tolerances for the drawbar..
[15:21:29] <archivist> not tight, its just providing force
[15:22:08] <anonimasu> I have a bolt sitting here..
[15:22:13] <anonimasu> but I have no idea how to get it just about right
[15:22:23] <anonimasu> or if it has merit to make it adjustable..
[15:23:17] <archivist> the spring rate just needs setting so its in bounds when locked
[15:23:44] <archivist> and has enough movement to release the button
[15:24:09] <anonimasu> hm.. I should make the pieces for one.. and see..
[15:24:27] <anonimasu> what about pull into the spindle?
[15:24:58] <archivist> qty of beleville washers sets movement/travel and type/size set rate/force
[15:25:12] <anonimasu> yep
[15:25:24] <anonimasu> that means I have to take my spindle apart.
[15:26:38] <archivist> I did a roller once that was compressed with those, when the paper wrinkled it damaged the steel rollers, had to harden and grind
[15:27:04] <anonimasu> isnt the balls providing force against the taper on the pullstud
[15:27:36] <archivist> why, you only need access to the top and bottom unless you intend machining it
[15:27:59] <anonimasu> I need to pull the old drawbar out..
[15:28:05] <anonimasu> and measure length
[15:28:25] <anonimasu> the real deal is how they provide the force on the taper..
[15:28:44] <anonimasu> ah.. the washers forces balls to close.. then pulls them up more..
[15:29:07] <anonimasu> so, you dont need to limit the horizontal stroke inside, you just need to make it close around the stud..
[15:29:08] <archivist> balls are closed by outer tube
[15:29:38] <anonimasu> yep
[15:29:49] <anonimasu> http://www.henriksplace.se/CNC/CNC_Photos/BT30_Spindle_Design-2.jpg
[15:30:55] <anonimasu> I wonder if I have any balls... somewehre
[15:31:00] <anonimasu> I could make a gripper
[15:31:32] <anonimasu> * anonimasu curses the lack of a rotary table with motor
[15:31:45] <archivist> make one :)
[15:32:11] <anonimasu> I could.. but I have nothing to drive it
[15:32:24] <anonimasu> and I need a heidenhain encoder for it
[15:35:14] <anonimasu> if I design a drawbar, there will be through holder coolant port.
[15:36:01] <anonimasu> hm, I wonder if 4.8mm holes and 5mm balls
[15:36:15] <anonimasu> works :]
[15:38:29] <anonimasu> that gives 1.8mm ball movement..
[15:38:32] <anonimasu> from each side
[16:01:53] <L84Supper_> L84Supper_ is now known as L84Supper
[16:25:44] <anonimasu> hm
[16:25:53] <anonimasu> * anonimasu has a pullstud in front of him
[16:30:13] <anonimasu> and it looks like balls never ever contact the face..
[16:30:16] <anonimasu> just the taper..
[16:30:51] <anonimasu> about 1.17mm per side is enough :)
[16:35:38] <anonimasu> so, a 4.85mm hole through the collet :)
[16:46:58] <anonimasu> mhm, this isnt pretty.
[17:19:28] <skunkworks_> This is a neat video (steppers)
[17:19:29] <skunkworks_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNGFPJETF5s&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpminmo%2Ecom%2Fwhich%2Dstepper%2Dmotor&feature=player_embedded
[17:23:06] <alex_joni> heh, using emc2
[17:24:05] <skunkworks_> :)
[17:24:20] <BJT-Work> hi alex_joni
[17:24:38] <skunkworks_> even though hi doesn't seem to be on here anymore - he still seems to be using emc over mach.
[17:24:45] <skunkworks_> *he
[17:29:24] <alex_joni> smart fellow
[17:29:26] <alex_joni> hi BJT-Work
[18:25:09] <eric_unterhause1> too bad I don't know anyone with a mill
[18:25:36] <cradek> where are you?
[18:25:47] <eric_unterhause1> Central Pennsylvania
[18:28:02] <archivist> cant see your flag on the map
[18:28:05] <eric_unterhause1> I suppose I could work on mine ...
[18:28:08] <eric_unterhause1> what map?
[18:28:24] <archivist> http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php?option=com_google_maps_insight
[18:28:27] <eric_unterhause1> there's a map? Why wasn't I told of a map?
[18:30:04] <bill2or3> anyone in utah? (I'm not signed in)
[18:30:15] <archivist> iirc yes
[18:30:53] <eric_unterhause1> last I checked, it was over a million
[18:31:07] <archivist> two are on the map
[18:31:34] <bill2or3> Eric, no wonder this place is so crowded.
[18:33:34] <eric_unterhause1> yeah
[18:33:40] <eric_unterhause1> I used to live in Layton
[18:34:05] <bill2or3> oof.
[18:35:31] <eric_unterhause1> is giving yourself a username on the wiki sufficient to log into the map?
[18:36:27] <bill2or3> dunno, I didn't have any login at all. (but am creating one now)
[18:36:38] <eric_unterhause1> oh well, headed out to find a mill
[18:36:38] <archivist> yes
[18:37:47] <bill2or3> is a wiki login distinct from the site login form at the lower left of the main page?
[18:37:51] <eric_unterhause1> but you can't just be logged into the wiki, must go to home page
[18:38:37] <bill2or3> I created a login, and it logged me in as part of that process, but I still dont see users on the map.
[18:38:42] <bill2or3> * bill2or3 trys re-logging
[18:38:53] <eric_unterhause1> bill2or3, go to home page
[18:38:59] <eric_unterhause1> linuxcnc.org
[18:39:30] <archivist> * archivist sees 3 in utah now :)
[18:40:28] <bill2or3> I should see a login form on the home page, yes?
[18:40:43] <turkshead> turkshead is now known as DrTurk
[18:40:53] <DrTurk> DrTurk is now known as turkshead
[18:41:01] <eric_unterhause1> yes
[18:41:37] <bill2or3> * bill2or3 clears cookies again.
[18:41:41] <eric_unterhause1> they lied about how to add yourself though
[18:42:00] <bill2or3> they did?
[18:42:10] <eric_unterhause1> no, I'm on there
[18:42:20] <eric_unterhause1> nvmind
[18:42:47] <eric_unterhause1> just proves that moving out of utah speeds up your web access capabilities
[18:42:49] <eric_unterhause1> :)
[18:43:10] <bill2or3> heh, I have plenty of bandwidth here. (at the ISP where I work)
[18:43:33] <eric_unterhause1> I'm talking about the chair/keyboard interface
[18:44:08] <bill2or3> that's always been problematic. :-)
[18:44:09] <eric_unterhause1> 3 users in Utah, and not one named Jared, something's wrong here
[18:44:24] <bill2or3> I know, and where's the Tanner ?
[18:44:41] <eric_unterhause1> Tanner must have been after my time, left in '94
[18:45:13] <bill2or3> * bill2or3 reads about cnc driver powersupplies.
[18:45:31] <skunkworks_> bill2or3: how is your build coming? any pictures?
[18:46:42] <bill2or3> not much progress to see, I've been researching the electronics part of it all. finally hooked up motors to drivers to power, which was kinda neat.
[18:46:54] <bill2or3> just stepping them with a function generator, no pc is set up yet.
[18:46:56] <skunkworks_> Nice :)
[18:47:19] <skunkworks_> I have a prototype amp that I have not destroyed yet... http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/servostart/schem/latestcurrentlimit/mcguNI9R.jpg
[18:47:48] <Jymmm> eric_unterhause1: Utah has some of the best residential infrastructure around - fiber
[18:48:32] <bill2or3> I got an X-Y stage off ebay that I'm going to wire up as a learning/testing excercise. (the stage: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260422827357 )
[18:48:51] <Jymmm> 40Mbps for less than $50/mo
[18:48:58] <bill2or3> unless you live in SLC. :-(
[18:50:25] <bill2or3> that is a big cap.
[18:50:44] <geo01005> I'm in Utah
[18:51:12] <bill2or3> * bill2or3 waves south.
[18:52:10] <geo01005> Might go to NPS tomorrow.
[18:52:56] <bill2or3> I'm thinking I'll try to sneak in a visit tonight.
[18:53:01] <bill2or3> if I can get clearance.
[18:54:03] <geo01005> I went there a couple of Saturdays ago, but I didn't find anything good.
[18:54:55] <bill2or3> yeah, quality varies a lot. I go 2-3 times a month, and usually leave emptyhanded.
[18:55:29] <bill2or3> ... but there was that time I found the linear rails in the "drawer slides" section...
[18:55:57] <bill2or3> * bill2or3 lunches.
[19:35:35] <PCW> skunkworks_: Why dont you try a 3 phase hbridge with one of the IR or Fairchild modules?
[19:37:28] <skunkworks_> PCW: I really would not now where to start. I have not researched 3 phase control. (mainly - the bridge evolved by what I had to start with)
[19:39:09] <skunkworks_> Those modules look neat though
[19:40:19] <skunkworks_> *know
[19:41:20] <skunkworks_> On the surface it looks 'hard' ;)
[19:41:40] <PCW> just 1 1/2 hbridges in a package... (Tom Sawyerly)
[19:42:33] <skunkworks_> could make a 3 axis brushed servo drive with 2 of them ;)
[19:44:18] <PCW> For just voltage mode control (Thats how you are using your HBridge) AC brushless control is pretty easy
[19:46:12] <skunkworks_> from what I gathered from jonE - you keep one low - one floating - and run pwm the last one. (I assume you know which one by the prox?)
[19:46:28] <PCW> I think there are HAL components for most of it
[19:49:36] <awallin> are you sure real-time on a pc is fast enough for ac 3-ph motor control?
[19:51:44] <PCW> For sine wave PWM you drive all with 50% for 0 (locked antiphase)
[19:51:46] <PCW> and then vary each of the U.V.W PWMs sinusoidally with 120degrees
[19:51:47] <PCW> phase shift from phase to phase
[19:51:55] <PCW> Yes sure at 4 KHz or so
[19:53:58] <PCW> (Just trying to get someone to try my 3 phase PWM generator)
[19:54:14] <skunkworks_> heh ;)
[19:54:46] <skunkworks_> I think jmkasunich wanted to try it at some point - he is the one that wrote the clark hal modules
[19:55:14] <PCW> Other than isolation it should drive the module directly
[19:56:08] <kcummins> * kcummins cowers in awe, and wonders if there's a CNC wading pool somewhere... ;)
[19:56:39] <skunkworks_> * skunkworks_ sometimes sounds like he knows a lot - but he wings it a lot.
[19:57:02] <awallin> PCW: wouldn't you still need to generate the PWM in hardware (at 10-20 kHz) and then update the duty cycles for the pwm-generators from HAL at 4kHz?
[19:57:20] <skunkworks_> The mesa card would do the pwm.
[19:57:23] <PCW> Yes
[19:58:22] <PCW> Theres a HM2 3 phase PWM gen (3x 10 bit in one 32 bit word) with complementary outputs and deadzone
[19:58:23] <kcummins> I know what 3 phase is, having had the joy of supporting a Harris mid-range computer for a couple of years, and I'm assuming PWM is pulse width modulation, but I just want to build a cheap, easy controller for my dinky steppers... And then make them move with EMC... ;)
[19:58:25] <awallin> ok, that should work. I played with a dsPIC generating PWM for an IRF IRAMS H-bridge chip maybe 2 years ago
[19:59:16] <kcummins> driver, I mean, not controller. Or is it both... Arrgh! :O
[19:59:43] <PCW> We use a dsPIC on the 8I20 three phase amp
[20:00:10] <skunkworks_> kcummins: http://www.pminmo.com/l297-8/l297-8.htm
[20:00:22] <awallin> kcummins: steppers are different. it's probably cheaper and faster to buy geckodrives than to mess around with DIY electronics for steppers.
[20:00:38] <skunkworks_> But I agree with awallin :)
[20:01:01] <kcummins> Faster, yes. Cheaper, maybe. More fun? :)
[20:02:31] <kcummins> * kcummins is skipping lunches trying to fund his current toy...
[20:03:15] <PCW> Doesnt take too many lunches to fund a little Gecko
[20:03:18] <skunkworks_> kcummins: pictures required..
[20:04:31] <skunkworks_> kcummins: http://www.geckodrive.com/product.aspx?c=3&i=14469
[20:05:02] <kcummins> Oh, I've drooled over the Gecko's, especially the G540...
[20:06:21] <kcummins> But even the G250/G251's seem like pipe dreams... Maybe I'm just being overly naive and need to man up to the financial requirements of the Toy... :)
[20:06:45] <jepler> I have a rule: I never add up what I've spent on my machine
[20:07:10] <kcummins> More realistically, I need to get SWMBO on board. (Hey, no laughing in the back, buddy!)
[20:07:11] <cradek> a xylotex is a much cheaper alternative for a low power stepper machine
[20:08:09] <cradek> I bet a xylotex is cheaper than buying all the parts you need for three pminmo boards.
[20:08:23] <kcummins> What do you consider low power? I'm a part-time garage hobbyist, and my steppers are Vexta PK266's, and I'll be building an MDF rig...
[20:08:24] <skunkworks_> Probably..
[20:08:49] <skunkworks_> what current are teh pk266's?
[20:08:52] <cradek> xylotex is 24? volts at a couple? amps
[20:09:05] <cradek> geckos are 80? volts at several? amps
[20:09:10] <jepler> xylotex is cheaper than G540, but it's also not a finished enclosure. If you make a mistake that burns out a driver on the xylotex, you're stuck replacing the whole thing
[20:09:12] <cradek> precise ratings, you know
[20:09:23] <alex_joni> cradek: 7A for the bigger geckos
[20:09:24] <kcummins> skunkworks_: Ummm... 1.4A bipolar, 2A unipolar.
[20:09:30] <alex_joni> 2.5A for the g540 iirc
[20:09:38] <cradek> kcummins: at what voltage?
[20:09:47] <kcummins> Hang on...
[20:10:05] <jepler> (btdt)
[20:10:48] <kcummins> 5V Bipolar, 3.6 Unipolar
[20:11:31] <kcummins> Current is per phase on a 2-phase motor
[20:12:14] <SWPadnos> 3.5A for the G540
[20:12:17] <SWPadnos> 50V
[20:14:39] <skunkworks_> xylotex looks like Drives up to 35Volts @ 2.5 A/phase
[20:15:16] <skunkworks_> 3 axis for $155 it looks like
[20:15:35] <skunkworks_> kcummins: where are you located?
[20:15:50] <kcummins> Eastern Iowa
[20:15:57] <kcummins> Ceadr Rapids/Iowa City
[20:18:48] <skunkworks_> ah - just noticed that xylotex doesn't ship to the eu :)
[20:31:57] <SWPadnos> I'm surprised that the Xylotex is that expensive
[20:32:08] <SWPadnos> it's only $52 more for a set of three G251s
[20:32:28] <SWPadnos> though you do need a BOB with that, and the Xylotex more or less includes one
[20:32:31] <cradek> hm, I think of the xylotex as about $100 - I need to recalibrate
[20:32:49] <SWPadnos> I wonder if that's a kit
[20:34:01] <jepler> no, that's the board alone, before shipping. http://www.xylotex.com/3axBoard.htm
[20:34:14] <SWPadnos> but it does include a parallel cable
[20:34:38] <jepler> a short ribbon cable. you still need a male-female db25 parallel cable
[20:34:52] <SWPadnos> oh
[20:35:01] <SWPadnos> unless you want it right next to the motherboard
[20:35:39] <SWPadnos> don't the break at 36.5V or something?
[20:35:49] <SWPadnos> I think Steve S said soemthing about that
[20:36:36] <jepler> yes, that's what he said. they're also *cough* unforgiving of motor wiring faults
[20:36:46] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:37:00] <SWPadnos> I don't remember if we tested your motor with the correct current setting
[20:37:14] <jepler> on the G251? no.
[20:37:21] <SWPadnos> bummer
[20:37:29] <SWPadnos> it sure worked better with too high a setting though
[20:37:39] <jepler> yeah, except for the burns when you touch the motor case
[20:38:15] <SWPadnos> well, yeah, those weren't better
[20:39:27] <jepler> having had the experience that blowing one driver makes the whole board unusable, I sure lean towards the "one driver per board" philosophy now.
[20:39:36] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:39:48] <SWPadnos> it's like the component stereo debate
[20:43:59] <SWPadnos> jepler, what kind of additional hardware (if any) did you need so you could hook up other I/Os? (like limits, spindle control ...)
[20:47:05] <jepler> SWPadnos: you mean with the xylotex? I used a self-built breakout board for switches, because they really called for one GND each (there's only one screw terminal for GND on xylotex, iirc, and I had 4 switches) and RC filters. For spindle control I used one of the spare outputs on a pin header to an SSR using a sparkfun female jumper wire with one end replaced by a spade terminal
[20:52:01] <SWPadnos> hmm. OK
[20:52:35] <SWPadnos> I guess my question was really whether you "need" a breakout board of some kind, or whether it's relatively complete
[20:52:59] <SWPadnos> sounds like it's mid-way between
[20:54:00] <alex_joni> good night all
[20:54:03] <rob> rob is now known as robh_
[20:54:13] <SWPadnos> see you Alex
[20:55:43] <jepler> you can do without or diy -- it's nothing you couldn't do on perfboard or prototype board..
[20:56:09] <SWPadnos> ok
[20:56:27] <SWPadnos> the person last night - ursine - was wondering about xylotex vs. HobbyCNC
[20:56:48] <SWPadnos> I wasn't sure what extra stuff would be needed with either of those, or in comparison to a G540
[20:57:08] <SWPadnos> which is pretty complete (except you lose a couple of possible I/Os due to the fourth axis being mandatory)
[20:57:26] <cradek> I thought hobbycnc is the one with the bug
[20:57:57] <SWPadnos> I remember some discussions about the product, and they weren't complementary
[20:58:12] <SWPadnos> weren't they the ones who didn't know the necessary step timing?
[20:58:17] <cradek> I think someone made a wiki page
[20:58:21] <kcummins> OK... After catching up on the chat, I think I'll scavenge the couch for a while and buy some G250/G251's as I have the cash...
[20:58:34] <cradek> hardware bug related to idle current reduction maybe?
[20:58:44] <SWPadnos> dunno, I don't recall that
[20:58:52] <kcummins> cradek: Yep. Just read that page earlier
[20:59:07] <SWPadnos> kcummins, you will need some other stuff, like a breakout board of some sort, to use the G250/G251
[20:59:37] <kcummins> Loses steps because the HobbyCNC driver has some bad logic... But it can be worked around (at the risk of warranty, of course)
[20:59:42] <SWPadnos> I think if you add it all up (counter to jeplers recommendation :) ), you may see that the G540 isn't that bad of a deal
[21:00:17] <kcummins> SWPadnos: Yeah, but that stuff is easy...
[21:01:17] <kcummins> Probably not, but I need the immediate gratification f getting something ASAP, rather than waiting for the big boy... :)
[21:01:24] <kcummins> ^f^of^
[21:01:25] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:01:42] <kcummins> * kcummins has impulse control issues...
[21:01:49] <SWPadnos> oh
[21:02:08] <SWPadnos> so waiting a couple of months for the annual (so far) "customer appreciation sale" at geckodrive is out then
[21:02:36] <kcummins> Well... Maybe not that far out... How good is that sale? :)
[21:02:58] <SWPadnos> he usually gives everyone the 100 or 1000 piece price, so it's pretty good
[21:03:27] <kcummins> Mmmm... Schweet... Might be able to resist that long...
[21:03:38] <kcummins> Couple of months, you say?
[21:04:22] <SWPadnos> yes, I think it's usually in August/September some time
[21:04:47] <kcummins> Hmmm.... Maybe a late birthday gift...
[21:05:07] <SWPadnos> there's no guarantee they'll do it this year, but it might happen :)
[21:05:17] <SWPadnos> and you can work on the impulse problem
[21:05:19] <SWPadnos> and SWMBO
[21:06:00] <kcummins> Well... Still need to build the dang thing... The driver(s) would just let me play with the motors/EMC, and then I'll *never* get the thing built... :)
[21:06:18] <SWPadnos> oh, so it might be a *really* good idea to wait :)
[21:06:27] <bill2or3> kcummins, that sounds familiar...
[21:07:22] <kcummins> Hmmm... SWMBO has the potential need for engraving. I just might be able to get her more on board than "OK, that's a neat hobby. Here's your lunch money."
[21:07:29] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:07:46] <kcummins> * kcummins references previous comment about impulse control in relation to financial responsibility...
[21:07:54] <SWPadnos> $299 for the G540, 4 axis, includes breakout board functions and spindle control (isolated analog voltage output)
[21:08:18] <SWPadnos> it's a really nifty little package, and even includes connectors to go to the stepper motors
[21:08:26] <SWPadnos> if I weren't a servo snob, I'd probably use it
[21:08:40] <skunkworks_> here here!
[21:08:43] <Jymmm> * Jymmm chuckles
[21:09:07] <SWPadnos> along with the Keling motors I bought ($49 each)
[21:09:13] <SWPadnos> 387 oz-in I think I said
[21:09:32] <skunkworks_> the question is - what would you run?
[21:09:43] <SWPadnos> EMC2, of course ;)
[21:10:00] <skunkworks_> I mean at the other end of the steppers.. ;)
[21:10:02] <SWPadnos> 387 oz-in is almost enough to put on the bridgeport actually
[21:10:12] <SWPadnos> if I could settle for very low speed rapids
[21:10:16] <skunkworks_> heh
[21:10:32] <SWPadnos> I do have a bandsaw that I might want to semi-automate as well
[21:10:47] <SWPadnos> though the ram is pretty heavy - it would have to be geared down pretty heavily
[21:10:50] <kcummins> I was happy to get the PK266 (160oz-in) at $20 including shipping...
[21:11:06] <bill2or3> that's cheap.
[21:11:21] <kcummins> That's why I got two.
[21:11:31] <bill2or3> from where?
[21:11:32] <kcummins> SWMBO is why I only got two... ;)
[21:11:36] <kcummins> ebay
[21:11:52] <bill2or3> Mmmmebay
[21:13:15] <kcummins> http://stores.shop.ebay.com/Duct-Tape-Engineering__W0QQ_armrsZ1 I bid $5, lost, then got in on second-chance. :)
[21:14:15] <bill2or3> what're they (eventually) going into?
[21:14:27] <kcummins> My first CNC router...
[21:15:16] <bill2or3> mdf construction?
[21:15:21] <kcummins> Yup
[21:15:32] <bill2or3> gotcha, I think that's a good place to start.
[21:15:34] <skunkworks_> joes2006?
[21:16:28] <kcummins> Nope. My own design. http://www.madlemur.com/cnc-project
[21:16:55] <kcummins> Although I've revised that design a bit. Need to update the page...
[21:17:11] <bill2or3> are those skatebearing+angle stock slides?
[21:17:17] <kcummins> Yup
[21:17:41] <acemi_> acemi_ is now known as acemi
[21:23:23] <bill2or3> kcummins, sounds like you're at about the same stage of building as I am.
[21:23:40] <bill2or3> the "figuring all the parts out & shopping" stage. :-)
[21:24:30] <kcummins> Well, I do have one set (8) of skatebearings, and some angle stock. And now two motors... :)
[21:25:23] <bill2or3> fwiw, centent drivers can be had for about $50 each on ebay.
[21:36:26] <kcummins> There... Updated the site with an image of the "current" design...
[21:36:34] <bill2or3> * bill2or3 looks
[21:37:47] <kcummins> Still thinking about using belt drive instead of direct...
[21:39:24] <kcummins> I'm just worried about introducing even *more* backlash...
[21:39:54] <eric_unterhause1> If you are talking about static belt designs, they don't have much backlash
[21:40:00] <archivist> backlash is a pain
[21:40:28] <anonimasu> the only good way to fight backslash is to throw money at it.. frankly enough
[21:40:30] <anonimasu> at some point
[21:40:56] <archivist> or clever gcode
[21:40:57] <bill2or3> I wouldn't worry about it too much on a wooden machine.
[21:41:02] <anonimasu> indeed
[21:41:39] <archivist> mine 5 axis has plenty, so I do unidirectional cuts
[21:41:54] <bill2or3> based on my lack-of-progress, I'd encourage you to concentrate on finishing something, trying to optimized everything is why mine still isn't done.
[21:42:17] <eric_unterhause1> no kidding
[21:42:19] <kcummins> This is for fun. Some engraving, some woodworking, *maybe* some weak-arsed PCBs or gamining-related mini stuff...
[21:42:33] <eric_unterhause1> even with that philosophy, I'm still searching for someone with a mill
[21:42:51] <eric_unterhause1> if it's for fun, even more reason to just get something working
[21:42:52] <kcummins> And for building Mk2... ;)
[21:43:08] <bill2or3> I have a harbor freight manual mini mill, it's ok.
[21:43:24] <bill2or3> actually, it's crap, but I'm a lousy machinist, so it averages out. :-)
[21:43:27] <eric_unterhause1> I've thought about that, but I don't have the room
[21:43:54] <eric_unterhause1> I should get a milling attachment for my lathe
[21:44:23] <kcummins> Whups! Lost power. Need to shut down to conserve generator...
[21:44:24] <archivist> eric_unterhause1, you can start with a saw and battery drill, ally plates .... some duct tape :)
[21:44:27] <kcummins> * kcummins waves
[21:44:51] <eric_unterhause1> archivist, I found a bandsaw
[21:45:05] <eric_unterhause1> and I have a vise and some files
[21:45:21] <archivist> lathe, then you have a horizontal mill
[21:45:28] <bill2or3> Mmm, bandsaw.
[21:45:39] <eric_unterhause1> why didn't I think of that?
[21:46:14] <archivist> end mill in the 3 jaw
[21:46:15] <eric_unterhause1> not sure I have anything to hold this part on there though
[21:46:21] <eric_unterhause1> I have collets
[21:46:30] <archivist> even better
[21:46:53] <archivist> fly cutter for large area
[21:47:23] <archivist> between center boring bar for holes
[21:47:30] <eric_unterhause1> holding the workpiece is going to be a problem though
[21:48:56] <archivist> some of these techniques but on a smaller scale http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/William_Doxford_and_Sons#The_Manufacturing_Process
[21:51:07] <bill2or3> woah
[21:51:51] <eric_unterhause1> off to search for giant sheets of metal
[21:51:56] <bill2or3> those pictures are way cool.
[21:52:07] <bill2or3> good luck.
[21:52:43] <archivist> yup were posted on the oldengine mailing list the other day, just had to be shared
[21:52:54] <bill2or3> I like how nobody's wearing goggles or any safety gear.
[21:58:27] <eric_unterhause1> that's why gerstner toolboxes had a mirror and tweezers
[22:07:05] <toastydeath> man i would love to work on big stuff =(
[22:07:50] <eric_unterhause1> your workpieces not manly enough for you?
[22:08:03] <toastydeath> OBVIOUSLY NOT
[22:08:52] <toastydeath> production cnc stuff is kind of boring
[22:09:25] <eric_unterhause1> what happened to the German machinist that used to chime in here occasionally?
[22:09:33] <eric_unterhause1> he worked on some big stuff
[22:09:43] <archivist> the one who hurt his hand
[22:09:56] <eric_unterhause1> I musta missed that
[22:10:02] <archivist> I wonder if he ever went back to work
[22:10:29] <eric_unterhause1> I imagine with machines like that you could have large parts of your body go missing
[22:10:43] <archivist> he had some nice pics of big stuff
[22:10:58] <eric_unterhause1> yeah, and all hand programmed iirc
[22:11:55] <archivist> he was craning some thing and chain slipped crushed/squashed hand
[22:12:04] <eric_unterhause1> ouchies
[22:12:31] <piasdom_home> r went back to work
[22:12:31] <piasdom_home> <eric_unterhause1> I imagine with machines
[22:12:37] <piasdom_home> oops
[22:15:08] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[22:25:31] <toastydeath> big stuff is a lot slower
[22:25:44] <toastydeath> i have more fun when I have to measure and think, rather than get the machine set and then sit there
[22:26:21] <archivist> I work at the small end
[22:26:39] <toastydeath> there's two large machine works down the road from where I work, I kinda want to check them out
[22:28:06] <archivist> theres a gantry mill next door with 1 30/40ft bed
[22:28:09] <KimK> How can I reverse the direction of a servo axis (joint) without changing the encoder wiring? I thought if I reversed the signs on the .ini file [AXIS_2] INPUT_SCALE and [AXIS_2] OUTPUT_SCALE values that would do it, but I was wrong. The Integrators Manual does not address this. Any advice?
[22:30:07] <cradek> I also thought negating the scale would do it.
[22:30:13] <eric_unterhause1> did you change the sign on both of those scales?
[22:30:14] <KimK> I am currently running I_S of -50800 and O_S of +1
[22:30:57] <KimK> If I try I_S of +50800 nd O_S of -1, it runs away.
[22:31:17] <eric_unterhause1> runaway bad
[22:31:39] <KimK> EMC2 catches it of course, joint_2 following error or something.
[22:31:56] <eric_unterhause1> I would think you would only want to change one of the two scales
[22:32:41] <KimK> only one?
[22:33:03] <eric_unterhause1> seems like otherwise you are negating the change
[22:33:44] <geo01005> change input scale and pid scale?
[22:35:18] <KimK> eric_unterhause1: Yes, change the input scale to reverse the direction, and change the output scale to compensate for the drive direction. But you think only one?
[22:35:21] <KimK> geo01005: OK, I'll try that.
[22:37:54] <archivist> from ##electronics <polykurt> I have a big linear Lambda power supply to give away in NYC. Output: 0-60VDC, 0-30A. Input 220VAC.
[22:39:16] <KimK> That worked great. And since the "P" value was the only one so far, no tuning affected either. I don't know why changing the output scale didn't work, but my thanks to all, it's working correctly now.
[22:40:13] <KimK> Masybe output scale is on an absolute value basis, like max output?
[22:40:28] <KimK> Masybe? Yikes.
[22:43:32] <geo01005> KimK, I don't know why the output scale didn't work. I think that is what I used on my system.
[22:44:09] <geo01005> KimK, You didn't change the P parameter to be negative did you?
[22:44:30] <KimK> Yes, that's exactly what I did
[22:45:54] <geo01005> I don't know that will work so well for the other parameters... I was thinking that there was a PID.scale parameter...
[22:46:44] <geo01005> You should really be changing it somewhere else... perhaps the way the signals are hooked up you bypass the output scale?
[22:47:04] <geo01005> Someone correct me if I'm wrong here...
[22:49:20] <KimK> No, you may indeed be right, and I would prefer to change it in "scale" but what can you do? Also, if Seb reads this later, this is on a Hostmot2 Mesa 5i22 Mesa 7i33 (using all the relavent keywords, LOL)
[22:50:01] <geo01005> I remember now after looking through things I used the scale parameter in the pwmgen for hostmot2
[22:51:05] <geo01005> setp hm2_5i22.0.pwmgen.scale -1
[22:51:13] <geo01005> or something like that.
[22:53:19] <KimK> OK, that's a good idea, I'll check. Oops, I would like to continue this, but have got to get to a family dinner for a visiting relative. (Spaghetti!) I'll be back tomorrow, hopefully.
[22:53:19] <geo01005> does that work KimK?
[22:53:38] <geo01005> ok, good luck :)
[22:53:47] <KimK> Haha, I can only say, "To be continued..."
[22:54:56] <KimK> KimK is now known as KimK_afk
[23:48:31] <genfool_> What should I see, when running a sim example with no machine connected? Trying to get the os setup at this time.