#emc | Logs for 2009-06-15

[00:43:00] <skunkworks> It is going well - probably another month or so depending on help
[00:45:05] <skunkworks> Firs time I have used tyvek - I need to put the rest up.
[00:45:09] <skunkworks> that stuff is tought
[00:45:12] <skunkworks> tough
[00:47:50] <Jymmm> skunkworks: Yep, though it is NOT UV proof. I think it has a UV exposure life of 60-90 days. After that, I'm not sure what's suppose to happen.
[00:48:29] <skunkworks> turns to mush?
[00:48:30] <skunkworks> ;)
[00:50:04] <Jymmm> I think it starts to degrade, much like plastic grocery bags
[00:50:10] <Jymmm> but slower
[00:51:05] <Jymmm> skunkworks: I want to use it for ground cover (weed control), but not willing to spend $120 to try it out withut being UV proof =)
[00:56:06] <skunkworks> heh - it seems to have fiberglass in it - knives dull very fast.
[01:21:37] <jimbo132> Why use Tyvek.. all Good siders in oregon use tarpaper or felyt.. Fewer problems in the long run. Most houses with Tyvek when you open them up later have mold behind it. With tarpaper when you drive nails for your siding the tar in the paper seals around the nails...
[01:22:52] <jimbo132> This is one of those things where old school is still better.
[01:23:03] <skunkworks> because it came with the kit.. ;)
[01:23:52] <jimbo132> sell it to someone else and make yours better...
[01:25:19] <jimbo132> It's the American way...:)
[01:25:41] <skunkworks> I would have to bet that if you opened up a tarpaper house - there would be mold also. mold is over-rated.
[01:26:49] <jimbo132> not near as much if any. the big deal is the seal around the siding nails with Tyvek you do not get this.
[01:27:32] <skunkworks> people used to live in mud houses
[01:29:16] <jimbo132> Some people still do.
[01:32:34] <skunkworks> exactly
[01:35:52] <roh> well.. here we still use stones *g*
[01:35:59] <roh> kinda worked well
[01:37:10] <roh> our hackspace has some walls which are 50-70cm thick, and there is no cellar
[01:39:53] <Goslowjimbo> My connection to FreeNode keeps timing out. Is anyone else having this problem? It's every few minutes. I don't think I've missed much yet, it's just disconcerting.
[03:08:02] <tom3p> this newest mobo is 2745486 max jitter servo thread. why do so many suggest its easy to find good mobos and all i find are crap? intel 815aaemobo, 512 meg ram, matrox 450 pci
[03:12:10] <roh> tom3p what kind of systems did you try yet??
[03:12:21] <roh> seems i had luck on first try
[03:12:59] <tom3p> tyans, intels, soyos, all crap sevral year several hundres of dollars, wanna buy one?
[03:13:04] <SWPadnos> tom3p, are you running the test for a very long time? (like days and days)
[03:13:39] <tom3p> only 1/2 hr to 2745486, but left it while at work today, same nuber & noit frozen when home at 10pm
[03:13:57] <SWPadnos> ok. have you disabled SMI?
[03:14:44] <tom3p> just reading about it & wondering how to get inet access with the wifi only hotel & ubuntu (no wifi ubuntu)
[03:14:57] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[03:15:06] <tom3p> run 'setsmi' bash: command not found
[03:15:15] <SWPadnos> does your laptop have an ethernet port?
[03:15:31] <SWPadnos> (or whatever you're using right now)
[03:16:44] <tom3p_> crap internet connection anyway, it just dropped
[03:16:49] <SWPadnos> oh
[03:17:10] <tom3p_> i will drag it to work tomorrow and see if i can get wired
[03:17:23] <SWPadnos> I was going to suggest installing firestarter on your laptop and sharing the connection via wired ethernet (assuming your laptop has an ethernet port)
[03:17:41] <SWPadnos> but going somewhere with a better connection is probably a good idea too :)
[03:18:38] <tom3p_> thanks for the tips
[03:18:42] <tom3p_> tom3p_ is now known as tom3p
[03:18:47] <SWPadnos> sure
[03:24:08] <tom3p> i read a bit on firestarter, its a firewall, what does it do for the sharing? ( tomp knows very little about networking and has a few prayers I chant to make mine work )
[03:24:30] <SWPadnos> hmmm. maybe that's the wrong one
[03:24:41] <SWPadnos> I thought it could also set up connection sharing pretty easily
[03:24:57] <SWPadnos> the normal network manager can't manage more than one interface at a time, but firestarter can
[03:25:02] <SWPadnos> (sort of)
[03:25:10] <tom3p> no, i see now, ';howto share with firestarter, cool
[03:25:30] <SWPadnos> not that you might need a crossover cable or a hub/switch to make it work
[03:25:38] <SWPadnos> depends on your ethernet hardware
[03:25:51] <tom3p> http://www.fs-security.com/docs/connection-sharing.php
[03:26:11] <SWPadnos> yeah - I've done it before, but it was a couple of years ago
[03:26:39] <SWPadnos> (silly hotels won't let you use more than one laptop per room, even when they charge you for the connection)
[03:28:08] <tom3p> hah, to get this box to boot, i had to get an ide hd, that meant the laptop needed a usb to ide, that meant more ancient hardware, that brought on the smiles from the micro center store 'we dont have many ide drives or enclosures, maybe look in the closeout bins'
[03:28:29] <SWPadnos> shoulda been cheap at least
[03:28:43] <tom3p> they di have a 30$ 160G hd
[03:28:45] <tom3p> did
[03:29:04] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:29:13] <SWPadnos> do you have it now? :)
[03:29:32] <tom3p> yeh its running emc now
[03:29:43] <tom3p> lotsa 20G partitions
[03:30:39] <SWPadnos> strangely though that's still a crappy price per GB
[03:30:43] <SWPadnos> but maybe not for IDE
[03:31:38] <tom3p> and a 99$ ACER 19" LCD, wish the intell chipset would allow it to rotate to page display
[03:32:13] <SWPadnos> I haven't seen that feature really work since the old Pivot monitors/cards
[03:32:41] <SWPadnos> maybe not even then
[03:33:30] <tom3p> a tech here spins his at will, he's gotten use to flipping from web to cad
[03:33:46] <SWPadnos> cool. do you know what it is?
[03:34:12] <tom3p> no, may check tomorrow, whats the one with 3 little birds?
[03:34:22] <tom3p> was popular with mac
[03:34:29] <tom3p> viewsonic
[03:35:18] <SWPadnos> yep, viewsonic
[03:35:31] <SWPadnos> I'd be more curious about the card driving it
[03:35:38] <tom3p> and the matrox 450 millenium is twin head (vga and that weird boxy conncetor, came with a weird to vga dongle tho )
[03:35:51] <tom3p> ok, i'll ask about the video coard
[03:35:54] <tom3p> card
[03:36:04] <SWPadnos> I have a CAD card (Nvidia Quadro FX3500) which can pivot, but it's a lot slower when rotated than in normal mode
[03:36:23] <SWPadnos> DVI :)
[03:36:24] <tom3p> the time is in the retrace huh?
[03:36:35] <SWPadnos> no, it just works weird
[03:36:38] <tom3p> yep dvi
[03:37:03] <SWPadnos> the monitor still scans the same way, but the graphics need to be drawn rotated and in the wrong places
[03:37:27] <SWPadnos> also, left-right movement isn't along contiguous bytes, it requires moves by row
[03:37:48] <SWPadnos> it should be really close to the same, or the video card should be able to figure it out, but that didn't seem to happen
[03:38:19] <SWPadnos> I guess if I did web stuff in portait and CAD in landscapr, it would be OK - you don't need a lot of video speed to do web devel or word processing
[03:40:14] <tom3p> i wasted the day debugging noisy servo drives, noise feedback was making some solenoids chatter thru the 24Vps, so i began rewiring the cables, insuring the shield was gnd'd at the src. the cnc mfctr used wires on db15 not shroud. the tech made ribbon cables(no nice way to connect shield)... it wont fly, i gotta solder 8 sets of 7 axis up.
[03:40:41] <SWPadnos> bummer
[03:40:59] <tom3p> keeps me busy ( wish i was paid by the hour ;)
[03:41:02] <SWPadnos> sounds like I should get to bed before I hear any more horror stories (might keep me up :) )
[03:41:10] <tom3p> gnite, thx
[03:41:27] <SWPadnos> sure. good luck with the soldering
[03:42:24] <tom3p> heh, the notes on firestarter sharing "That's it. You're done, don't touch this card further." i like that 'put you hands in you pockets and step away'
[03:43:52] <tom3p> oh, anyone have ideas on how to get say cvs src from one machine (which has inet access ) to another ( that you're trying to get on the net) ?
[03:44:23] <SWPadnos> since I haven't left yet, I'll suggest a flash drive ...
[03:44:33] <SWPadnos> or a USB-connected 160GB hard disk
[03:44:57] <tom3p> oh, i thought cvs created special directories, heheh yep i got one of those thingys
[03:45:12] <tom3p> i will try that
[03:45:40] <SWPadnos> if you do a checkout, you'll still have all the source. you can't commit from a non-connected machine anyway, so the special info doesn't really matter
[03:46:43] <tom3p> great, i'll be soldering and sitting all dat, may as well dload some stuff
[03:46:47] <tom3p> ok bombay potatoes and saltines is a good fake for iltaco or supreme brand tamales :)
[03:47:05] <SWPadnos> no more horror stories! :)
[03:47:06] <SWPadnos> night
[03:47:11] <tom3p> hahahah
[03:47:15] <tom3p> gnite
[03:49:12] <tom3p> non-horror:: goto youtube, search daleks ( dr who ) spike milligan (the Goons) and pakistani (the people)... what do you get? spike milligan in a dalek costume , but he's pakestani ! hilarious!
[03:56:16] <tom3p> kills dog: put him in the curry! kills granny: put her in the curry! kills budgie: put him in the curry! really, forget this cnc stuff & go have a laff
[03:59:03] <roh> hmm
[04:00:04] <roh> i tried adding encoder knobs to tune feed override and jog the 3 axis. the encoders work and i see count as i want in halmeter
[04:01:28] <roh> but when i try to connect them i get an error that "halui.spindle-override.counts must not be the same as a pin"
[04:03:06] <tom3p> 'must not be same as a pin' is not informative, did you look at the src code to see what causes that msg?
[04:03:21] <tom3p> (becuz the msg sux)
[04:06:40] <SWPadnos> if I had actually not been drawn in by the daleks (thank you tom3p), I wouldn't answer
[04:06:41] <SWPadnos> but ...
[04:07:04] <SWPadnos> you probably have a "linkpp" command which was changed into a net command
[04:07:19] <SWPadnos> the net command doesn't let you make a signal with the same name as a pin
[04:07:55] <SWPadnos> so add a useful signal name to the net command
[04:08:59] <roh> tom3p nope i just added "net halui.spindle-override.counts <= encoder.0.counts" to custom_postgui.hal
[04:09:59] <SWPadnos> so make it "net a_name_I_like halui.spindle-override.counts <= encoder.0.counts"
[04:10:17] <tom3p> grep for those 2 labels to see if someone already uses them (what SWPadnos said with a twist)
[04:10:27] <SWPadnos> no, it's not that
[04:10:45] <SWPadnos> it is not allowed to make a net with same name as an existing pin
[04:11:12] <SWPadnos> (at least not with the net command)
[04:11:32] <tom3p> yeh, wouldnt the name show up in a search, and he should avoid names already taken?
[04:11:48] <SWPadnos> just giving it some name that doesn't look like a pin name would do it :)
[04:12:07] <SWPadnos> like "net encoder3 halui.spindle-override.counts <= encoder.0.counts"
[04:12:12] <SWPadnos> err
[04:12:15] <tom3p> like 'dalekpakestani-spindle-overkill'
[04:12:19] <SWPadnos> like "net encoder0 halui.spindle-override.counts <= encoder.0.counts"
[04:12:23] <SWPadnos> yes! :)
[04:12:54] <SWPadnos> I didn't realize he was the one who went around asking stupid Americans questions
[04:13:23] <SWPadnos> (with a map that showed Australia as many different countries, like Iran, France, North Korea ...)
[04:15:09] <roh> yeah.. works
[04:16:02] <tom3p> roh: you got spindle override with a rotary encoder now?
[04:16:22] <roh> tom3p i want to add 6 rotary encoders
[04:16:39] <roh> got them cheap from a surplus... will mount em in a small box with a cable to parport
[04:16:39] <tom3p> 6 axis ? 6 spindles?
[04:17:26] <roh> 3 for the axes. the feed-Ãoverr, spindle-overr. and i will find some use for the 6th one as well.. dunno yet
[04:17:55] <tom3p> did it 'wind up'? (does it stop as soon as you stop moving the wheel? or doe sit finish some 'count' )
[04:18:00] <tom3p> does it
[04:18:16] <roh> we also got a usb gamepad, but that is somehow not what one want... for some tasks it would be practical to move it 'one click' at a time
[04:19:25] <roh> it works now (for spindle-override as a test at least) so its cool. quite easy.. just patch it to the parport against ground and use pin1 as output static on true as a 5v to use pullups against
[04:19:49] <roh> hal is pretty cool
[04:20:14] <tom3p> gotcha, the thingy i work on now has a joypad (not emc) and the jog is the 'same' btn as the jog, the 1st press causes one step, holding it down breaks into a rapid. i dont like the 'jerk then go'
[04:20:32] <tom3p> ah , i see , spindle was the test
[04:21:01] <tom3p> on this system tap tap tap is step step step but , push is step THEN jog
[04:21:07] <roh> don't have the case yet.. will buy it in a few hours when shops are open (its monday, 6:21 am here atm ;)
[04:21:33] <roh> so i only have one encoder wired up to the 3rd parport atm
[04:23:10] <tom3p> i picked up a netmos pci parport to get 2 ( cheap i/o )
[04:23:20] <roh> yeah. thats the one we have too
[04:23:35] <tom3p> yep, if i get a working box, i'll play with hal a lot more
[04:23:37] <roh> netmos 9865
[04:24:29] <roh> the first one (onboard) controls the mill, the second is for reprap, the third will be used with these encoders :)
[04:24:42] <tom3p> soulds right, i dloaded the pdfs from netmos, there were singles and dual and single serials with dual parallels, lotsa variant
[04:24:57] <tom3p> ah reprap, i was thinking the additive hot sugar was a good idea
[04:25:31] <tom3p> do you extrude plastic? hot melt? what?
[04:25:46] <roh> tom3p jap. ours had unplaced jumper-pads on the pcb and some folded paper as manual which didnt match the idea of a dual parport.. but the pcb was 2 subd25 and every pin does what it should so far ;)
[04:26:11] <roh> not yet.. but we want to do 'melt' concept, yes.
[04:26:27] <roh> abs i think for now
[04:28:03] <roh> did mill some parts of the extruder yesterday and also lathe the transporter-screw out of brass
[04:28:54] <roh> used hdpe for the parts for now. if it dies due to mechanical stress i'll use aluminium *g*
[04:31:05] <roh> and it seems i'll run out of ports soon. need analog ones for the reprap heater temperature feedback loop. so adding an atmel on the serial is the easiest and 'been done' way
[04:31:54] <tom3p> i'm impressed with the rotary overides, please post them on the wiki, heh i just dreamed a linear encoder on each axis, you push the 'reader head' where you want the joints to be, extremely intuitive.
[04:32:43] <tom3p> oh, for analog, jepler had done soemthing, maybe his arduino work, i tried a 'labjack' but didnt write a driver suited to emc/rtai
[04:32:45] <roh> on the wiki is some page: Spindleoverride which basically has that
[04:33:30] <tom3p> roh, is velocity on reprap sensitive to the temperature feedback?
[04:33:31] <roh> tom3p i'd really like to use some parport pins (have some free on port1) and keep the serial free.. its the 'last port' which is not usb ;)
[04:34:06] <roh> hm.. dunno. i guess it changes the 'bridging' behaviour since one pulls the filament into thin stripes
[04:34:51] <tom3p> is the temp feedback used for a loop for the heater?
[04:35:04] <roh> the temperature is important to keep the plastics in the right behaviour for extruding, so usually one waits till the head reaches some value and then starts
[04:35:24] <roh> jap. loop with the heater. reprap usually controlls everything with arduino
[04:35:39] <roh> they even use it to parse and execute gcode 'somehow'
[04:35:41] <tom3p> aha, you could use a good bimetal switch or tow ( hot euf & too hot... just 2 pins )
[04:35:49] <tom3p> or two
[04:35:53] <roh> good enough for their simple mechanics i think
[04:36:52] <tom3p> someone talked about velocity being influenced by the wire temp in a foam wire cuttin app.
[04:36:55] <roh> tom3p naah.. one wants to change the temperature depending on material.. also the point to measure is some hole in a brass pipe near the nozzle.. my sensor (ntc) is about 0.5mm wide and _very_ fast
[04:37:09] <roh> makes sense (in foam)
[04:37:59] <tom3p> contact measurement! maybe non contact could be .... cleaner?
[04:38:10] <roh> more expensive for sure ;)
[04:38:32] <roh> not really contact with the plastics.. with the brass heating it
[04:39:56] <tom3p> look at molding ( moulding?) sprue heaters ( what keeps the plastic hot as it enters the mold
[04:40:35] <tom3p> gotta go, congrats on the new handrad
[04:41:14] <maddash> hmmm
[04:41:15] <roh> tom3p thanks.
[05:13:56] <roh> yeah.. jogging axes also works
[07:27:15] <micges1> micges1 is now known as micges
[07:36:51] <micges2> micges2 is now known as micges1
[07:48:19] <micges1> micges1 is now known as micges
[09:10:45] <micges1> micges1 is now known as micges
[09:18:43] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[11:29:42] <pjm> afternoon folks
[11:35:55] <roh> how does one connect multiple things to one output in hal?
[11:48:24] <roh> i want to have axis.0.jog-scale on the abs.1.out.. but also axis.1 .. and axis.2
[11:54:15] <micges> roh: 'net scale abs.1.out => axis.0.jog-scale axis.1.jog-scale axis.2.jog-scale'
[13:01:05] <roh> micges found it
[13:01:20] <roh> did use the net multiple times.. that one worked
[13:03:04] <micges> roh: 'net signal-name out-pin => in-pin1 in-pin2 in-pin3 ....'
[13:03:19] <SWPadnos> and it doesn't even have to be in that order
[13:03:30] <SWPadnos> it's just net name pin1 pin2 pin3 ...
[13:08:28] <anonimasu> hm..
[13:08:36] <anonimasu> * anonimasu is fighting to get threadmilling working on the heidenhain
[13:47:05] <roh> heh.. have another problem
[13:47:49] <roh> i have now an encoder wheel which is connected to a limit1 which is connected to axis.[012].jog-scale
[13:48:26] <roh> works ok... just that i can 'move the wheel below min or max' and it needs the same amount of turning to get back to the limit is bad.
[13:48:51] <roh> some way to tell encoder where its min and max value for .position are?
[13:49:25] <cradek_> maybe you want http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/man/man9/knob2float.9.html
[13:49:30] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[13:50:55] <Jymmm> Gooooooood Morning Vietnammmmmm!
[14:01:27] <roh> yay.. thats it
[14:01:40] <roh> thanks cradek . that one solved it
[14:03:11] <cradek> welcome
[14:04:49] <roh> really cool what hal can do. i just had the idea tonight... now i got a plastic box with 6 encoders on the mill and can jog it down to 1/100th of a mm
[14:24:02] <alex_joni> 6 encoders?
[14:24:58] <skunkworks_> logger_emc: bookmark
[14:24:58] <skunkworks_> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2009-06-15.txt
[14:26:04] <geo01005> skunkworks, logger_emc is a pushover, I'm pretty sure you have done that more than once ;)
[14:26:41] <skunkworks_> used to be logger_aj
[14:26:58] <skunkworks_> he was a pushover also.. ;)
[14:35:21] <roh> alex_joni a manual-jog-box
[14:36:05] <roh> small plastic box with 6 knobs. spindle-override, feed-override, 'manual jog speed for all 3 axes' and x y and z axis
[14:37:01] <Jymmm> roh: and what hardware is controlling all this?
[14:37:16] <roh> Jymmm 6 pullups and some wires to a parport
[14:37:32] <Jymmm> so, a pc mobo?
[14:38:05] <roh> yes. msi board, via chipset, duron 1600 cpu 1gb ddr or ddr2 ram (dunno anymore)
[14:38:16] <roh> radeon9000 graphics on agp slot
[14:38:34] <roh> emc2.3.1 on ubuntu hardy
[14:38:36] <Jymmm> So basically what you have is just a HID
[14:39:10] <roh> ack.
[14:39:13] <Jymmm> Are the knobs you speak of encoders?
[14:40:00] <Jymmm> and where be the pics???????
[14:40:48] <SWPadnos> Jymmm, it's a "pendant" with 6 encoders, which connects to a parallel port or two on the EMC2 PC
[14:40:52] <roh> http://yamato.hyte.de/linuxcnc/syil_bf20/
[14:42:18] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Yeah, I got that. when he said "manual" i thought "self contained box"... dedicated uC or Pico in the same enclosure, etc
[14:42:49] <Jymmm> roh: No pics at that url btw
[14:43:19] <SWPadnos> I noticed, but there are HAL configs so you can form your own mental picture
[14:43:35] <roh> Jymmm importing the pics from the cam atm.
[14:43:42] <Jymmm> roh: k
[14:44:11] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: you've had way too much coffee already !
[14:44:30] <SWPadnos> no, impossible
[14:44:38] <Jymmm> or I haven't had enough to keep up with you
[14:44:44] <SWPadnos> that's possible
[14:47:20] <Jymmm> Hmmm, still get HBO. Maybe comcast is being generous
[14:47:41] <SWPadnos> it costs money to send someone out to change the trap filter
[14:48:08] <Jymmm> They had a Free HBO/Cinemax weekend, but the weekend is over
[14:49:23] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Dude, it's all digital now.... say buBye to analog, we'll miss you!
[14:57:36] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: This network tuner box isn't too shabby, though the HW and TS bites
[14:58:28] <SWPadnos> that's more or less cool :)
[14:58:58] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: The TS has attitudes worse than mine.
[14:59:26] <SWPadnos> impossible!
[14:59:28] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I've been able to stream across all boxes on te lan so far. even broadcast (as a test)
[15:00:25] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: One HD stream was about 5MB/s, avg is 2Mb/s, and SD is about 500KB/s or
[15:00:26] <Jymmm> so
[15:00:46] <Jymmm> 2MB/s
[15:00:49] <SWPadnos> was that first one supposed to be 5mbits?
[15:01:04] <SWPadnos> ah, ok - all bytes
[15:01:38] <Jymmm> Yeah, 30s file to hdd of raw ts stream was 150MB
[15:01:55] <Jymmm> I'll let you do the math =)
[15:02:11] <roh> http://yamato.hyte.de/linuxcnc/pics/
[15:03:12] <Jymmm> roh: Cool
[15:09:44] <BJT-Work> http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/catid,9/id,429/lang,en/
[15:20:36] <skunkworks_> raining?
[15:20:40] <skunkworks_> ;)
[15:50:07] <cradek> grr
[16:49:52] <LawrenceG> nice doggie..... whats happening?
[16:50:26] <archivist> yap yap
[16:57:19] <skunkworks_> LawrenceG: How is it going?
[17:04:53] <LawrenceG> not too bad... working on servo stuff.... I have an idea on fet control I want to bounce off someone.... got a minute?
[17:05:56] <LawrenceG> skunkworks, ?
[17:09:12] <LawrenceG> skunkworks_, ?
[17:29:55] <skunkworks_> LawrenceG: sorry - sure. (I don't know if I will be much help but wth)
[17:56:38] <LawrenceG> skunkworks_, hey... with the fet gates in the bridge controlled by the microprocessor, I see 2 modes of operation (fwd,rev) to do this, I
[17:57:04] <LawrenceG> plan on setting 3 out of the 4 fets to a steady state and doing pwm on the remaining upper fet
[17:57:54] <LawrenceG> this should minimize heating because there is only 1 fet switching and using the upper fet keeps the charge pump working
[17:59:02] <LawrenceG> I dont think this is how bridges are normally driven... any comments?
[18:00:03] <alex_joni> you mean 2 closed, one open and the other one pwm'ed ?
[18:01:47] <LawrenceG> hi alex_joni .. I think 1 lower closed, opposite upper in pwm and the other two open
[18:02:53] <alex_joni> err... yeah, that's what I meant :)
[18:03:18] <alex_joni> all the h-bridge design's I've seens usually pwm both fet's
[18:03:35] <SWPadnos> LawrenceG, if you're trying to reduce heating, you could try alternating which FET gets PWM'ed at a slow rate (10 times a second or something)
[18:03:41] <LawrenceG> sequence of switching when changing direction is tricky... dont want any shootthru
[18:03:54] <SWPadnos> so PWM the top side for 0.1s, then the bottom side (leaving the top one on) for the next 0.1s
[18:05:23] <skunkworks_> interesting.
[18:05:45] <skunkworks_> * skunkworks_ just takes the approch of oversizing. ;)
[18:05:49] <LawrenceG> all the fets are on a common heatsink... so I dont think it will make much difference if the upper or lower is pwm'd (total power into the heatsink)
[18:06:07] <SWPadnos> I don't know if the "imbalance" from having one side connected and the other floating will cause any issues
[18:06:09] <LawrenceG> pwm on upper keeps the charge pump working
[18:06:20] <SWPadnos> it shouldn't, since there's no current path, but I don't know
[18:07:10] <SWPadnos> ah, o/ it seems that it should help a little to alternate, but it could be more trouble than it's worth
[18:07:18] <LawrenceG> a single direction motor control usually works with just 1 fet ... this just has the option of reconfiguation for both directions
[18:07:51] <SWPadnos> sure - you tie the high side to the supply and use a single FET for drive
[18:08:12] <SWPadnos> oooooh, big thunder
[18:08:56] <LawrenceG> a lot of the losses come during the switching time... seems like that power is cut in half by switch 1 fet only.... there is still the IR loss component and the losses in the body diodes, but those are kind of fixed
[18:09:12] <SWPadnos> yep
[18:10:00] <LawrenceG> hey... its only smoke.... I think I check the processor logic with some leds and a scope first!
[18:10:24] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[18:10:36] <SWPadnos> if you're using a hardware PWM for this, it may be hard to configure correctly
[18:10:53] <SWPadnos> (assuming it's a pair of outputs from the same PWM)
[18:11:18] <SWPadnos> then again, you can just disconnect the low side outputs from the PWM and set them "manually"
[18:11:54] <LawrenceG> the dspic looks like it can be configured to do it.... really only 1 pwm active at a time and the other outputs are fixed
[18:12:23] <SWPadnos> yeah, you just have to be careful about how you change the direction
[18:12:35] <LawrenceG> I think the switch over at direction changes should only be a few carefully done instructions
[18:12:45] <LawrenceG> :}
[18:12:48] <SWPadnos> a PWM service interrupt should do it, but I don't know that there's a guarantee that the PWM output will be off when that interrupt is serviced
[18:13:06] <SWPadnos> seems more likely that it would be guaranteed to be on
[18:14:54] <LawrenceG> at the 1ms update, if changing direction, one needs to turn everything off then reconfig the pwm pin and let it go for another servo cycle
[18:16:01] <SWPadnos> yeah - coud lead to stuttering though
[18:16:03] <SWPadnos> could
[18:16:20] <LawrenceG> a few nops may be needed to be sure switching has occurred... processor is pretty fast
[18:17:08] <LawrenceG> 33ns/instruction
[18:17:55] <SWPadnos> it's not that, it's the synchronization between two PWM outputs and two non-PWM outputs that would concern me
[18:18:39] <SWPadnos> the PWM service interrupt will be synchronized to the PWM reload (presumably), which is better than the 1ms or so interrupt which will not be sync'ed to the PWM at all
[18:19:08] <SWPadnos> but, once the reload interrupt fires, the PWM has probably already started its next cycle
[18:19:36] <LawrenceG> shut everybody off... maybe 500ns wait for devices to shut off, and then start pwm of correct pin
[18:19:55] <SWPadnos> sure - if you don't mind glitches in the output, that would work :)
[18:20:03] <SWPadnos> (I'm a purist, I don't like glitches :) )
[18:22:30] <LawrenceG> actually, I think there will be less glitches than the hardware method, because you have exact control... although it would still be possible to go from full forward to full reverse in approx 500ns
[18:23:01] <LawrenceG> one crazy servo oscillation!
[18:23:09] <SWPadnos> you'll have a glitch on the PWM-controlled output if you turn it off in the service interrupt, fiddle with registers, then turn it back on
[18:23:43] <SWPadnos> (it being the PWM itself, since you would be changing the duty cycle and the output pin connections)
[18:24:14] <LawrenceG> true, but you always have the gitch when the timing is updated every ms.... pwm has descrete levels
[18:24:22] <alex_joni> I did a 2-channel pwm on a microcontroller once
[18:24:33] <alex_joni> I used a fast thread, which set both pwm's on/off
[18:24:44] <alex_joni> and a slow thread, that just updated some variables the fast thread used
[18:25:12] <SWPadnos> huh. now I wonder why this person thinks he should be reviewing things
[18:25:22] <SWPadnos> cons: Metal case is heavier and less durable than plastic
[18:25:43] <SWPadnos> I don't think I've seen any metal thing that's less durable than a plastic thing
[18:26:11] <LawrenceG> maybe if acid immersed?
[18:26:18] <SWPadnos> oh, could be
[18:26:34] <SWPadnos> but I probably wouldn't go around doing that with a notebook SSD
[18:28:52] <geo01005> what is the review?
[18:29:03] <SWPadnos> http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=332&Itemid=60
[18:29:04] <archivist_attic> plastic does not accidently stick to magnets
[18:29:24] <SWPadnos> the conclusion page has that inane con
[18:29:36] <SWPadnos> neither does aluminum (or aluminium)
[18:31:39] <skunkworks_> LawrenceG: are you using driver ic's?
[18:31:50] <skunkworks_> or are you wanting to do it all in the uc?
[18:36:36] <skunkworks_> Guest586: hello
[18:37:08] <Guest586> hey! can emc2 be used to control DC Servo using analog velocity control - specifically an older model Fanuc dual drive?
[18:37:10] <Guest586> see: http://www.dnc-electronics.co.uk/fanuc-drives/6047_fanuc_velocity_control_unit.htm
[18:37:29] <alex_joni> Guest586: yes, but you need some hardware card for that
[18:37:36] <alex_joni> servo control card.
[18:37:55] <alex_joni> one of the ones here: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMC2_Supported_Hardware
[18:38:40] <Guest586> I have a full fanuc robot with 3 of these dual drives in it -
[18:38:41] <Guest586> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeffreygarman/120366442/in/set-72057594054963039/
[18:39:57] <LawrenceG> skunkworks_, yes... fan(...mumble) driver IC's to keep the gate drive fast
[18:42:22] <alex_joni> Guest586: those looke like DC servo's with encoders on them
[18:43:44] <Guest586> alex_joni: yup
[18:43:45] <skunkworks_> Don't those have some sort of deadtime in them so the possiblity of shoot thru is pretty low?
[18:44:53] <skunkworks_> (like non-existant sans layout issues)
[18:45:55] <alex_joni> Guest586: from this point of view it should be fairly easy to get going
[18:49:08] <Guest586> alex_joni: but getting a servo control card is key to running them with EMC2? something that can take the encoder and the velocity inputs
[18:49:46] <alex_joni> right
[18:49:55] <alex_joni> encoder inputs, and -10/10V outputs
[18:51:22] <Guest586> alex_joni: any suggestions on where I could find wiring diagrams / specifications for these Fanuc DC servo drives?
[18:51:33] <alex_joni> sorry.. no idea
[18:51:44] <geo01005> Guest586: I'm not sure that the current puma kinematics module will work for that bot though.
[18:52:01] <Guest586> I've seen those videos -
[18:52:14] <alex_joni> geo01005: I'm quite sure it won't :)
[18:52:20] <alex_joni> but that's a nice math exercise
[18:53:32] <LawrenceG> skunkworks_, I will have to look again at the driver specs... they are a 1/2 bridge driver, so they probably have at least a both on lockout and possibly enforced deadtime... I dont remember
[18:53:41] <Guest586> guess I will have to read up on defineing new kinematics modules then - is there a live rendered model of the puma settup that you can run in sim mode with emc2
[18:53:57] <alex_joni> yup, there is
[18:54:03] <geo01005> I can't tell if you can decouple the translation and rotation like you can with a puma.
[18:54:18] <alex_joni> geo01005: what translation on a puma?
[18:54:58] <geo01005> so the solution for the current puma bot the translation solution (x,y,z) is decoupled from the rotations.
[18:55:22] <geo01005> That dosen't look like the case for this bot.
[18:55:22] <alex_joni> ah, right
[18:56:22] <geo01005> Perhaps there is an offset in the base that we can't see in the picture though.
[19:01:16] <geo01005> This guy may have done the kinematics for that machine : http://www.memsnet.org/resumes/661/
[19:02:00] <geo01005> at least he said he has done it under the Robotics and Classical Controls section
[19:06:06] <Guest586> interesting "Dynamic and Kinematic analysis of GMF 110R manipulator."
[19:06:58] <geo01005> Does the machine work?
[19:09:10] <Guest586> it was powered up once since we got it at the scrap yard - circular connectors are busted on two servos - we don't have a teach pendant for it -
[19:09:58] <geo01005> do the servo drives have a model number on them?
[19:10:21] <Guest586> it powered up without making any smoke and booted into the Karel language thing - errors were prob due to busted connectors -
[19:11:18] <Guest586> geo01005: A20B-1000-0220 + A16B-1200-0230 + A06B-6047-H
[19:13:57] <geo01005> This place sells/ refurbishes them, maybe they would give you the pinouts? http://www.fanuc-parts.net/drive.html
[19:15:33] <Guest586> I saw that earlier - just thought I would ask the EMC2 people first :-)
[19:18:39] <geo01005> Good luck :) I think EMC is a great solution for that bot.
[19:19:10] <Guest586> It's a long term project - I have to go now - thanks for the input/starting points
[19:59:03] <geo01005> interesting: http://www.mbkpinternational.com/artcut_m40_laser_engraver.htm
[20:00:29] <geo01005> Cheap laser engraver.
[20:05:31] <jepler> quality software: "This Engraver does not work on windows XP Pro. It does work on all other windows version but we only give tech support on Windows XP Home. If you have something besides XP home then we cannot give any tech support."
[20:06:48] <skunkworks_> yikes
[20:06:57] <alex_joni> hahaha
[20:07:10] <motioncontrol> good evening at all
[20:07:17] <alex_joni> good night at all
[20:07:58] <skunkworks_> night alex
[21:01:10] <kirk_wallace> Hello. I want to record AXIS' "Show EMC Status". Using screen capture was sugested, but not all of the data fits on my screen. Does the staus live in a file that I can copy instead?
[21:47:32] <jepler> kirk_wallace: you can select the text with the mouse, then middle-click (wheel click) to insert it in another program
[22:03:55] <i-pink> hii
[22:04:16] <i-pink> someone here?
[22:04:32] <SWPadnos> several people. if you have a question, just ask
[22:04:45] <i-pink> ok,
[22:05:11] <i-pink> i have ubuntu 8.04 on my pink netbook
[22:05:24] <i-pink> *pink ubuntu
[22:05:37] <SWPadnos> is pink a color or a brand?
[22:05:46] <i-pink> color
[22:05:57] <SWPadnos> ok
[22:06:37] <i-pink> and i want to install all the cnc sftwer
[22:07:09] <i-pink> software*
[22:07:32] <i-pink> i dont have a cd :(
[22:08:29] <SWPadnos> you will be installing for simulation only, I presume
[22:09:04] <i-pink> i have a cnc
[22:09:17] <SWPadnos> (unless your netbook has a PCI slot or a parallel port, and magically doesn't use any power saving ACPI tricks)
[22:09:22] <i-pink> i make it from floppy motor :)
[22:09:26] <SWPadnos> what netbook do you have?
[22:09:37] <i-pink> m912X
[22:10:07] <i-pink> i have adapter from usb to rs232
[22:10:48] <SWPadnos> neither is useful for controlling motors with EMC2
[22:11:45] <SWPadnos> the expresscard slot might be usable with a parallel port adapter (I think such devices exist)
[22:11:56] <SWPadnos> but laptops in general are not suited for realtime use
[22:13:41] <i-pink> my netbook work 24/7
[22:14:03] <i-pink> and i can bay adapter for LPT
[22:14:17] <SWPadnos> that won't fix realtime latency problems
[22:14:24] <i-pink> but how i can install the EMC2?
[22:14:27] <SWPadnos> you might not have any, but notebooks are usually very bad
[22:14:43] <SWPadnos> I thought there were pointers on the emc2 wiki, but I can't find them right now
[22:15:01] <SWPadnos> you can make a bootable USB flash drive and boot from that, instead of a CD
[22:15:10] <i-pink> is not work
[22:15:17] <Jymmm> Use an external bootable USB cdrom drive
[22:15:21] <SWPadnos> there are pointers here: http://www.pendrivelinux.com/
[22:15:27] <i-pink> i try to make USB bootable
[22:15:35] <i-pink> with unetbootin
[22:15:42] <SWPadnos> if you can't make the computer boot from USB or some other external media, then you will have a very hard time
[22:15:43] <i-pink> is not work!
[22:16:00] <Jymmm> Boot the liveCd then use the internal utility to create a LiveUSB
[22:16:24] <SWPadnos> he has no CD-ROM
[22:16:29] <SWPadnos> (or she)
[22:16:33] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: desktop computer
[22:16:41] <SWPadnos> ah
[22:16:53] <i-pink> i want only the cnc softwares, not install all the ubuntu from 0
[22:16:55] <SWPadnos> I think the utility doesn't exist or doesn't work well on 8.04
[22:17:17] <SWPadnos> ok, you don't need to install from CD anyway
[22:17:22] <SWPadnos> you said you have 8.04 on it now, right?
[22:17:33] <i-pink> yes
[22:17:45] <SWPadnos> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#Precompiled_EMC2_for_Ubuntu
[22:18:09] <SWPadnos> you will need an internet connection, of course
[22:18:58] <i-pink> i have
[22:19:22] <i-pink> i need only download the sh file????
[22:19:35] <i-pink> http://linuxcnc.org/hardy/emc2-install.sh??
[22:19:43] <i-pink> only this?
[22:20:22] <SWPadnos> when you run it, it will download new package lists and then install EMC2 and all its dependencies and recommends
[22:20:52] <SWPadnos> it will probably be 50-100 MB or so total, maybe more depending on how up to date your system is
[22:21:24] <i-pink> this file make all this automatic?
[22:21:44] <SWPadnos> yes
[22:21:46] <i-pink> look i love pink (not computers)
[22:22:00] <SWPadnos> it changes your sources list, then updates the package listings, and installs EMC2
[22:22:27] <i-pink> mmmm brrrr
[22:22:50] <i-pink> if i want to make it manuel
[22:23:13] <SWPadnos> then download the script and look at what it does :)
[22:23:14] <i-pink> without scary script...
[22:23:16] <SWPadnos> it's just text
[22:23:39] <i-pink> is't scary
[22:24:05] <SWPadnos> do you know how to use synaptic or apt?
[22:26:01] <i-pink> i know
[22:26:25] <i-pink> but what is the packege name?
[22:26:40] <SWPadnos> once you add the emc2 repositories, the package name will be emc2
[22:27:18] <i-pink> ok
[22:27:40] <i-pink> and is install all the cnc software
[22:28:12] <SWPadnos> yes
[22:28:25] <SWPadnos> and the realtime kernel, which is required by the CMC software
[22:28:53] <i-pink> realtime kernel... whaaaat??????????
[22:29:23] <SWPadnos> EMC2 requires a realtime kernel
[22:29:34] <SWPadnos> unless you only install the simulator packages
[22:29:52] <SWPadnos> the realtime kernel is unlikely to work well on your netbook, but you will only know if you try it
[22:30:16] <SWPadnos> if you could boot from USB, that would be the best way, but if you can't, then you need to install it to test it
[22:30:48] <i-pink> but linux is realtime machime
[22:31:06] <SWPadnos> no it isn't, by default
[22:33:35] <i-pink> mmmm and it delete the old kernel?
[22:34:01] <SWPadnos> no, both kernels will be installed, you can select which one to boot at startup time (in the grub menu)
[22:34:14] <i-pink> if iwant to go back?
[22:34:29] <SWPadnos> uninstall the RT kernel
[22:34:36] <SWPadnos> which will cause EMC2 to get uninstalled too
[22:35:13] <i-pink> what do you mean?
[22:35:35] <i-pink> i afraaaaaid
[22:35:51] <SWPadnos> the non-simulator emc2 can not work without a realtime kernel. if you don't want the realtime kernel, then you can't have emc2
[22:35:51] <i-pink> is't so scaryyyyyy
[22:36:24] <i-pink> ok
[22:36:54] <i-pink> about the motor
[22:37:27] <i-pink> i have 2 wire from the controler
[22:39:16] <i-pink> if i get clock in the left wire the motor go left, if i get clack in the right wire the motor got right
[22:39:40] <i-pink> is ok for the emc?
[22:39:53] <SWPadnos> yes
[22:39:54] <jepler> in emc that is stepgen "type 1". it is supported, but not by the common graphical configuration program (stepconf)
[22:41:18] <i-pink> jepler, what do you mean?
[22:41:54] <SWPadnos> he means that you will have to configure it yourself, since the graphical configuration program doesn't have an option for using that type of output
[22:42:04] <SWPadnos> but EMC2 and its hardware drivers can run the motor
[22:43:08] <i-pink> what the program preferd?
[22:43:42] <SWPadnos> ?
[22:44:23] <i-pink> i build the motor controler now
[22:44:28] <SWPadnos> oh
[22:44:31] <SWPadnos> step and direction
[22:44:57] <SWPadnos> one wire selects the direction, the other makes the motor step
[22:45:17] <i-pink> ok
[22:46:21] <i-pink> in the wire of the direction i need to make it like date, if "1" go right, if "0" go laft?
[22:46:31] <SWPadnos> no
[22:46:37] <SWPadnos> err, yes (sorry)
[22:46:41] <jepler> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/hal_rtcomps.html#sub:Stepgen-Step-Types
[22:46:57] <jepler> most commonly used is "type 0"
[22:47:45] <i-pink> jepler, what do you mean?
[22:48:19] <i-pink> i think i am the first woman are make cnc...
[22:48:28] <SWPadnos> not quite :)
[22:48:58] <jepler> that page I linked to shows each type of step waveform emc can produce. "type 0" is step and direction, the type SWPadnos has been explaining to you.
[22:49:04] <SWPadnos> I figured you might be female because you told us the color of your laptop before the make and model :)
[22:49:11] <SWPadnos> are you in Israel?
[22:49:46] <i-pink> is i am from israel
[22:50:10] <i-pink> is good or bad?
[22:50:25] <SWPadnos> just interesting - lots of users all over the place :)
[22:51:23] <SWPadnos> if only I remembered any hebrew
[22:52:11] <SWPadnos> not that I could type it into chatzilla
[22:52:37] <i-pink> mmm try in english
[22:52:41] <SWPadnos> heh
[22:52:45] <SWPadnos> I have been :)
[22:52:56] <SWPadnos> your english is much better than my hebrew ever was anyway :)
[22:53:12] <i-pink> mmm ok..
[22:53:52] <i-pink> from where are you?
[22:54:00] <SWPadnos> Vermont, USA
[22:54:29] <i-pink> i want to go to travel is usa
[22:54:59] <SWPadnos> it's a big place. lots to see
[22:55:21] <i-pink> mmmm yeh
[22:56:09] <i-pink> how i can connect the motor controlet to the lpt?
[22:57:13] <SWPadnos> you will need a DB-25 connector and some wires
[22:57:39] <i-pink> hehehe
[22:57:51] <i-pink> yes... i have it..
[22:58:30] <i-pink> but what wire to what legs in the DB-25 connector ???
[22:59:42] <SWPadnos> that is all up to you. you can choose which pins EMC2 will output to
[23:00:34] <i-pink> what is the defaullt?
[23:01:32] <SWPadnos> I think pin 2 is step and pin 3 is dir for the first axis
[23:01:43] <SWPadnos> but it's very easy to change around
[23:02:10] <i-pink> ok
[23:03:05] <i-pink> what is the maximum axis i cam connect on one DB-25 connector?
[23:03:37] <SWPadnos> I think 6
[23:03:46] <SWPadnos> but it depends on what else you need
[23:03:55] <i-pink> 6 wow
[23:04:45] <i-pink> i want to work on aluminum
[23:05:06] <i-pink> is hard?
[23:05:21] <SWPadnos> pretty easy to machine, for a metal
[23:05:35] <SWPadnos> but ou definitely need a better machine that you would for wood or plastic
[23:05:36] <SWPadnos> you
[23:06:28] <i-pink> i need it to make new body to my netbook
[23:06:43] <i-pink> like the macbook
[23:06:51] <i-pink> is so sexy!!
[23:06:55] <SWPadnos> heh
[23:08:20] <i-pink> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob-RBntcZc8
[23:08:36] <i-pink> look at this...
[23:13:19] <SWPadnos> that is an expensive machine
[23:13:56] <i-pink> i know 100K $
[23:16:41] <i-pink> bat i want to do something like that in my home
[23:17:14] <SWPadnos> it is possible to do that, but it will be much much slower
[23:17:38] <i-pink> ok
[23:17:38] <SWPadnos> floppy motors are a good place to start, but you will need significantly more power and speed for real work
[23:17:50] <i-pink> i have a loooong time
[23:24:43] <i-pink> this motor
[23:24:50] <i-pink> http://www.codeproject.com/KB/system/steppermotorcontrol/pic5.jpg
[23:34:42] <jepler> servo motor mount WIP: http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/img_4755-medium.jpg http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/img_4756-medium.jpg http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/img_4757-medium.jpg
[23:36:20] <i-pink> is from you?
[23:38:39] <i-pink> jepler, is from you?
[23:41:39] <SWPadnos> that scale is disconcerting to me :)
[23:42:25] <i-pink> way?
[23:42:39] <SWPadnos> I'm not used to motors being that small :)
[23:42:58] <SWPadnos> or shafts or pulleys ...
[23:43:49] <i-pink> what do you think about this motor.
[23:43:56] <i-pink> http://www.codeproject.com/KB/system/steppermotorcontrol/pic5.jpg
[23:44:06] <SWPadnos> it's very small for milling metal
[23:44:17] <SWPadnos> or moving much at all
[23:44:33] <SWPadnos> but it will be good for learning about motors, motor control, and CNC
[23:44:48] <i-pink> and for tiny cnc..
[23:44:59] <SWPadnos> very tiny, yes
[23:45:05] <i-pink> if it work i buy good motor
[23:45:14] <SWPadnos> yep - that's a good plan
[23:45:26] <i-pink> 3x7 cm CNC
[23:45:32] <i-pink> micro cnc
[23:45:57] <SWPadnos> you could almost mill a cell phone case with that :)
[23:46:10] <i-pink> heheh
[23:46:19] <i-pink> openmoko!!!!
[23:46:27] <SWPadnos> indeed
[23:47:14] <lerman> Some might disagree, but if I wanted to learn about real cnc, I'd use a servo system. You can get some Pittman motors for about $15 (USD) each.
[23:47:21] <i-pink> cnc second hand is ok?
[23:47:34] <SWPadnos> shipping to .il could be problematic
[23:47:52] <SWPadnos> yes, used equipment is what makes the wrold go around
[23:47:55] <SWPadnos> world
[23:48:00] <cradek> that's the truth
[23:48:16] <i-pink> my fantasy is A3 CNC
[23:48:24] <i-pink> 5 axis
[23:54:03] <i-pink> what is the normal price for cnc second hand? (size A3)
[23:54:03] <jepler> i-pink: yes, a friend is helping me make them
[23:54:50] <i-pink> he build all the servo from 0?
[23:57:34] <i-pink> SWPadnos, jepler ^^
[23:57:50] <SWPadnos> no, the servos are not home made
[23:57:54] <SWPadnos> as far as I know
[23:58:37] <i-pink> what is the normal price for cnc second hand? (size A3)
[23:58:49] <SWPadnos> it depends on too many factors to give you an answer
[23:59:06] <i-pink> + - ~
[23:59:19] <i-pink> or for NEW.
[23:59:32] <toastydeath> what is size a3
[23:59:39] <toastydeath> to me, that is a sheet of paper
[23:59:48] <SWPadnos> (some factors are: location, condition, spindle type, spindle power, axis motor type, axis motor power, control features, accessories ....)