#emc | Logs for 2009-06-11

[00:24:38] <mrpinky> hi :D, i saw that I can get button input to emc2 using hal_input, but how can I get position output if I want to e.g. use an external DRO?
[00:35:59] <jepler> mrpinky: it depends on how the PC and the DRO communicate
[00:37:12] <jepler> mrpinky: you can look at the (not well-documented) emclcd program, which communicates with certain serial and usb lcd displays; I'm not familiar with it personally
[00:39:17] <jepler> or you can write a "hal userspace component" in C, C++ or Python, which repeatedly gets the position from halui and outputs it to your DRO in whatever way it requires
[00:48:48] <jepler> enabling halui, description of its pins: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gui_halui.html
[00:49:12] <jepler> a python userspace component that uses (usb) serial to communicate with an avr: http://emergent.unpy.net/01198594294
[00:49:35] <mrpinky> hi jepler, thanks for all the advice!
[00:49:57] <jepler> I hope the links help you
[00:50:49] <mrpinky> i am trying to work out the most appropriate way to interface, without knowing any of the possible ways yet (because i am new to emc), so they will all be helful thanks
[00:51:39] <mrpinky> i am building the DRO myself, i am considering to make it emulate USB HID class. so input is easy using hal_input, but i think output is impossible with this module. i have to write a hal userspace component to do it this way, may be OK
[00:52:34] <jepler> mrpinky: as far as I've been able to tell (I'm the author of hal_input), the linux "input" layer doesn't have any support for outputs except keyboard LEDs, even though HID *does*
[00:52:56] <jepler> I know that you can go below the input layer to the HID layer if you want to / need to, but hal_input doesn't know how
[00:53:21] <jepler> if you have the expertise to do that, we'd love to have you contribute it
[00:56:28] <jepler> (does HID have a data type that is appropriate for a position display? The "analog inputs" I've seen in joysticks are fairly low precision and range..)
[00:57:41] <SWPadnos> it looks like the value is a signed int
[00:58:02] <SWPadnos> (in struct hiddev_event)
[00:58:29] <SWPadnos> then again, that's for a read. it may be different for written values
[00:58:45] <mrpinky> jepler, you are right, it looks like hiddev isn't low-level enough for control transfers :(
[00:59:08] <jepler> mrpinky: for the next level below that, there's libusb
[00:59:13] <mrpinky> i have lots of usb experience on windows, but i have only been using linux for 6 months (and i haven't touched the code)
[00:59:37] <mrpinky> SWPadnos, thanks!
[00:59:48] <SWPadnos> sure
[01:00:01] <SWPadnos> there's a lot of information ni the kernel Documentation directory
[01:00:18] <SWPadnos> I'd get a copy of the kernel source, then look in Documentation/input and Documentation/usb
[01:05:40] <Jymmmm> what about speaker?
[01:05:49] <jepler> oh, you may want to have a look at linux/hidraw.h too
[01:05:49] <jepler> bbl
[01:08:08] <Jymmmm> can't you output position as a stream on a port and just read the port?
[01:08:20] <Jymmmm> udp
[01:08:50] <SWPadnos> you can probably do something like that, but it requires new software everywhere between libusb and HAL
[01:09:01] <Jymmmm> why usb?
[01:09:12] <SWPadnos> because that's what he's building
[01:09:30] <SWPadnos> or at least something that emulates USB HID
[01:09:44] <Jymmmm> well ther'es hte usb to serial chop 3.3v levels
[01:09:49] <Jymmmm> chip
[01:10:01] <Jymmmm> and even fbsd have a driver for it
[01:10:21] <SWPadnos> sure, an FTDI or similar chip could be used
[01:10:30] <SWPadnos> or a USB-enabled AVR/PIC/other micro
[01:10:31] <Jymmmm> then could use th hitachi LED backpacks
[01:10:43] <Jymmmm> no micro eeded
[01:10:47] <Jymmmm> needed
[01:11:00] <SWPadnos> hitachi LED backpacks?
[01:11:07] <Jymmmm> LCD
[01:12:08] <SWPadnos> sure, there are several USB or serial (or SPI) LCD "controllers"
[01:12:09] <Jymmmm> my floppy copy of the internet is being slow
[01:12:19] <SWPadnos> which of course have their own microcontroller on board ...
[01:12:40] <Jymmmm> H44780
[01:12:48] <SWPadnos> HD44780
[01:12:50] <SWPadnos> :)
[01:13:15] <SWPadnos> and others that are similar: SED1536 (I think)
[01:13:26] <Jymmmm> Yeah
[01:13:42] <Jymmmm> want me to find the usb to serial chip?
[01:13:43] <SWPadnos> oh, that one is for graphic displays actually, not usually used in character modules
[01:13:45] <SWPadnos> nope
[01:13:56] <SWPadnos> FTDI FT245 or similar
[01:14:06] <Jymmmm> then wth you harrassing me for then?
[01:14:07] <SWPadnos> and there are others, like from Cypress and others
[01:14:12] <SWPadnos> I'm not
[01:14:15] <Jymmmm> ha!
[01:14:49] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHJOvZK2GNA&feature=channel_page
[01:15:28] <skunkworks> I just thougth it was funny. cannot really tell but she kept getting her tongue stuck
[01:15:46] <SWPadnos> please don't post the hairball video
[01:15:47] <Jymmmm> SWPadnos: double perjury trousers thermal!!!
[01:19:31] <roh> *mill*
[01:19:37] <roh> man is that boring *wait*
[01:19:39] <ds3> hmmm
[01:20:30] <roh> how do you guys watch your mill while its running hour long gcodes?
[01:20:45] <toastydeath> i don't
[01:20:56] <ds3> nope
[01:20:56] <toastydeath> i get on my laptop and just sit there.
[01:21:07] <ds3> until I hear the long bang ;)
[01:21:12] <toastydeath> haha, yep =)
[01:21:20] <roh> but you stay in some reach nearby.. some feet
[01:21:27] <toastydeath> not necessarily
[01:21:32] <Jymmmm> wait till the screeching stops?
[01:21:34] <roh> *sighs*
[01:21:37] <ds3> just within earshot
[01:21:41] <toastydeath> if it's a proven program, I have been on the other side of the building
[01:21:48] <toastydeath> depends on what it's doing, as wbell
[01:21:50] <toastydeath> *well
[01:22:39] <toastydeath> most tool failures don't cause too many problems, and if i'm suspicious of tool wear i'll throw the op stop on
[01:22:51] <roh> we now got a videostream.. its just too noisy
[01:22:55] <toastydeath> that way if the tool roasts 30 minutes into a 60 minute roughing pass and I'm gone the whole time, the finishing tool doesn't crash
[01:23:56] <toastydeath> but really, laptop
[01:24:17] <toastydeath> laptop + discretion when to leave and when it requires babysitting
[01:24:54] <roh> sitting by mine... having the stream on and a emergency-stop in this room
[01:24:58] <skunkworks> when a circuit board takes an hour a side on our slow machine - I just leave and come back.
[01:25:05] <roh> (which is not ip based, but a real wire)
[01:25:12] <toastydeath> how many times have you used e-stop
[01:25:24] <roh> some
[01:25:31] <toastydeath> most crashes during a run on proven code are things you could walk back to
[01:25:42] <toastydeath> tool fails, machine just plods along not knowing any different
[01:25:42] <roh> mostly when one doesnt know how to get something fixed finally yet
[01:25:59] <toastydeath> what do you mean?
[01:26:27] <roh> trying to mill your fixiating gear instead of the workpiece, too low clearances etc
[01:26:38] <toastydeath> proving code
[01:26:50] <roh> and mounting workpiece.
[01:26:55] <toastydeath> what are you doing that is taking an hour of spindle time
[01:27:15] <roh> milling aluminium without too much cooling
[01:27:29] <roh> no fluid yet, adding oil every layer
[01:27:42] <toastydeath> what's your chip load and sfm
[01:27:42] <roh> http://m21.hyte.de:8000
[01:28:30] <roh> eeeh.. its a 3-spoked 6mm diameter head. torroidal
[01:28:39] <toastydeath> ?
[01:28:48] <toastydeath> it's trying to connect but going slowly
[01:28:49] <roh> about and i
[01:29:04] <toastydeath> 3 spoked 6mm diameter head?
[01:29:05] <roh> eh and im'm in the middle between 300 and 3000 rpm in the upper gear on the spindle
[01:29:15] <roh> cutter
[01:29:17] <toastydeath> oh
[01:29:28] <roh> 3 blades
[01:29:50] <toastydeath> you can top your machine out
[01:29:53] <roh> 1mm layers, 6 mm depth pocket with 2mm sidecut
[01:29:56] <toastydeath> if you're not taking deep passes
[01:31:31] <ds3> usually you don't need e-stop; feed hold is sufficient if you are careful
[01:31:45] <toastydeath> roh, how fast are you feeding the tool
[01:31:55] <roh> about 120
[01:32:00] <toastydeath> mm/min?
[01:32:20] <toastydeath> if you run the machine at 3k rpm, you can easily double that
[01:32:21] <ds3> I hope that is not IPM ;)
[01:32:44] <roh> toastydeath eh.. jap
[01:32:48] <toastydeath> t?
[01:32:51] <toastydeath> *?
[01:32:51] <roh> nah.. metric land here
[01:34:33] <roh> i'm sure there is a faster way, but i think i should have working cooling for that
[01:34:40] <toastydeath> negative
[01:34:54] <toastydeath> you aren't even beginning to push the tool temperature
[01:35:12] <toastydeath> the only thing coolant does in aluminum is remove chips (and control part expansion)
[01:35:15] <toastydeath> it does not cool the tool
[01:35:33] <roh> oh.. thats new to me
[01:35:55] <toastydeath> the energy required to shear aluminum is not very high, so there isn't much heat generated to begin with
[01:36:00] <roh> how fast do you think one could do what i do?
[01:36:06] <toastydeath> i think you can run your machine flat out
[01:36:11] <toastydeath> 3000 rpm
[01:36:17] <toastydeath> if you had more, you could run more
[01:36:30] <toastydeath> bump it up incrementally, obviously
[01:36:49] <toastydeath> but the numbers I'm getting are 540 mm/min and for a 3000 rpm max spindle
[01:36:55] <toastydeath> -and
[01:37:03] <toastydeath> assuming your 3 flute, 6mm endmill.
[01:37:40] <toastydeath> if you have a bigger machine, you can just do that and be fine, but if you have a desktop mill i'd step it up
[01:37:47] <toastydeath> also, on the initial slot go slowly.
[01:38:01] <roh> its about 750W spindle power
[01:38:11] <toastydeath> spindle power isn't the issue, it's the rigidity of the machine
[01:38:29] <roh> syil bf20 vario
[01:38:38] <toastydeath> got a picture?
[01:38:51] <roh> the one pictured here: http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Raumfahrtagentur
[01:39:15] <toastydeath> i would step up in a couple increments
[01:39:17] <toastydeath> and see how it does
[01:39:26] <toastydeath> it SHOULD go fine, but better safe than sorry.
[01:39:29] <roh> 'makes more noise' for sure now
[01:39:55] <toastydeath> haha
[01:40:10] <toastydeath> if the machine's quiet, it had better be a finishing pass
[01:40:42] <toastydeath> i like roughing at school with a big facemill, you can hear it clear down the hallway
[01:41:09] <toastydeath> bzzzzzz
[01:41:33] <toastydeath> but back to your thing, with a 2mm stepover you should be pretty good for higher feedrates
[01:41:48] <toastydeath> slotting is really the only killer you'll encounter - if your tool is going to break, it will break during a slot
[01:42:23] <roh> currently its pocketing.. can see it on the video
[01:42:35] <toastydeath> the video won't connect for me, i tried =(
[01:42:48] <toastydeath> what i mean by "slotting" is any time the endmill is cutting full width
[01:42:54] <toastydeath> so like, anytime it steps down, that is slotting
[01:43:24] <roh> ah.. yes... 3 times the force _after_ it stepped down
[01:43:45] <toastydeath> what kills the endmill in slotting is that the chips don't get cleared without air blast or flood coolant
[01:43:57] <toastydeath> so a chip comes around, and wedges between the tooth and the wall and doesn't shear
[01:44:14] <toastydeath> itty bitty 6mm endmill can't crush the chip, tool flexes and breaks
[01:44:50] <roh> yeah.. halved the feedrate for most of the 'middle slots' which initiate a center startin pocket
[01:45:14] <toastydeath> you can tell a surface that has chip recutting because the finish is different - it'll have almost white vertical lines that look like noise or snow on a tv set
[01:45:20] <toastydeath> and it comes and goes
[01:45:31] <toastydeath> as the endmill loads and throws chips then clogs again
[01:45:44] <toastydeath> yeah, good policy to back it down
[01:46:11] <roh> i just wish there would be a way to tell heekscam to do that automagically ;)
[01:46:23] <roh> will think about hacking it in or suggest it to dan
[01:46:33] <toastydeath> does your cam thing have an option for trochoidal looping
[01:46:45] <toastydeath> or any orbital/circular pocketing routine
[01:46:48] <roh> eeeh.. whats that?
[01:46:51] <roh> it has pocketing
[01:46:57] <toastydeath> instead of like, milling in lines
[01:47:02] <toastydeath> it mills arcs until it hits a hard wall
[01:47:09] <toastydeath> then it mills out that corner again in loops
[01:47:13] <roh> and profiles. also 'adaptive rouging' and zigzag.. drilling is in the works still
[01:47:39] <toastydeath> but what trochoidal looping/orbital pocketing does is eliminate slotting
[01:47:49] <roh> see http://code.google.com/p/heekscad/ and http://code.google.com/p/heekscam
[01:47:54] <toastydeath> because as soon as you plunge, you've created a place for the chips to go
[01:47:58] <toastydeath> instead of going off in a straight line
[01:48:16] <toastydeath> hey, cool
[01:48:31] <roh> basically everything which works well for us here is open and free sw
[01:51:36] <toastydeath> also if you have the option, a bigger endmill would help.
[01:51:57] <toastydeath> for roughing, anyway
[01:56:21] <Jymmmm> Jymmmm is now known as Jymmm
[02:51:01] <geo01005_home> Are there instructions anywhere on how to build configs for HM2?
[02:53:20] <cradek> start with the sample
[02:59:37] <geo01005_home> I'm not sure where the sample is.
[03:01:01] <PCW> geo01005: FPGA configs?
[03:02:17] <geo01005_home> PCW: Yeah, more than anything I'm just curious. I would like to learn to use the FPGA tool chain.
[03:02:18] <SWPadnos> I believe there isn't a sample config that e.g. duplicates the old m5i20 setup
[03:02:55] <SWPadnos> oh, if you're tealking about making new FPGAs then the best place to look might be at the work jmkasunich did on that stuff
[03:03:09] <cradek> I guess I didn't understand the question
[03:03:11] <SWPadnos> it's in a branch on the CVS server, there's a makefile that can generate a bitfile
[03:03:28] <PCW> If you want to build a config, you really should use the latest source. its now much easier to chose options
[03:03:30] <geo01005_home> src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/firmware/src/Makefile?
[03:03:43] <SWPadnos> hmmm. that could be useful
[03:03:48] <SWPadnos> it's not what I'm thinking of
[03:04:48] <geo01005_home> PCW, By the way the 3X20 looks awesome.
[03:05:25] <PCW> Its a custom card we will try and sell as a general product
[03:05:31] <geo01005_home> Is there any documentation on how to use the latest source?
[03:05:59] <PCW> No, but its easier ;-)
[03:07:56] <geo01005_home> So where do I start?
[03:09:10] <PCW> Ill try and write up some startup instructions eventually...
[03:09:11] <PCW> Basically you chose a top level file depending on card type (all top level files start with TOP_)
[03:09:13] <PCW> in the top level file there are 2 options (card type and pinout)
[03:09:14] <PCW> if you want a custom pinout you need to create a new pinout file
[03:09:55] <PCW> for 7I43 there are only 2 card types (200K and 400K)
[03:10:58] <PCW> The pinout file drives the build (choses which modules and how many are installed, and the actual pinout)
[03:11:47] <PCW> (this is all for the new source with pinouts in individual files, not all lumped into a deathstar)
[03:12:00] <geo01005_home> So where is this source? Is it inside of trunk?
[03:12:33] <PCW> its waiting for Setbastion to commit it...
[03:12:51] <geo01005_home> Ahh, I see.
[03:12:58] <PCW> (I can send you a zipfile, not very big may 1/5 m)
[03:13:06] <PCW> (1/2M)
[03:13:10] <geo01005_home> Sounds fine.
[03:13:46] <PCW> also has stepgen fix and SSI interface module added
[03:13:54] <geo01005_home> I was trying to build the bitfile from the hostmot2 source from your website. I really don't know much about the whole thing those.
[03:14:07] <geo01005_home> Do you still have my address?
[03:14:25] <PCW> Its not up to date either (who can I blame for that?)
[03:14:53] <geo01005_home> Is it best to build from the command line?
[03:17:36] <PCW> Yep its in the sent mail spool
[03:17:38] <PCW> I use the GUI, (windows) I tried from the command line
[03:17:39] <PCW> but it bailed with a license violation but thats 9.2 maybe the latest fixes this
[03:17:41] <PCW> (the GUI will make a command line for you)
[03:18:40] <geo01005_home> I'll give it a try in the GUI. See if I can figure it out.
[03:22:46] <PCW> bbl
[03:23:36] <geo01005_home> Thanks PCW :)
[05:07:46] <jimbo> jepler: I plan on learning some of the syntax just not sure how a post processor works. Have used manual mills in past just purchased bridgeport CNC to learn and use.
[05:12:46] <toastydeath> a postprocessor, like, a mastercam postprocessor?
[05:17:06] <ds3> anyone know if a standard shop vac can run continously for hours at a time?
[05:17:23] <toastydeath> i don't know if it's a good idea but i've done it
[05:17:35] <toastydeath> ~4-6 hours runtime
[05:18:05] <toastydeath> bed, goodnight
[05:19:34] <ds3> hmmm
[05:19:36] <ds3> night
[06:41:38] <jimbo> jepler: The post process is not so bad It looks like a header with a command to do this and then a trailer. OK
[06:43:01] <jimbo> jepler: It is just an alias.....
[07:31:33] <Russell01> Hey all its Valen here
[07:31:54] <Russell01> This is my fathers PC and its his mill we are converting
[07:32:49] <Russell01> We are thinking about taking the current 80+kg head off and putting a spindle type setup on and were wondering about how they go doing low speed operations, tapping or face milling kind of thing
[07:33:18] <Russell01> and does anybody have any reccomendations on automatic tool change systems?
[07:45:17] <pjm__> pjm__ is now known as pjm
[08:02:49] <alex_joni> Russell01: that's a pretty hard question to answer over IRC
[08:03:04] <alex_joni> otoh it's night in the US, where most guys are, so you might want to ask again later
[08:03:12] <alex_joni> or even better on the emc-users mailing list
[08:36:48] <alex_joni> logger_emc: bookmark
[08:36:48] <alex_joni> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2009-06-11.txt
[08:36:51] <alex_joni> Russell01: ^^
[08:39:32] <archivist> Russell01, http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Case_Studies
[08:43:46] <Jymmm> alex_joni: you into video at all?
[08:51:24] <Russell01> hey archivist, what do you think of spindle motors for low speed stuff?
[08:51:29] <Russell01> tapping, face milling etc
[08:52:00] <Russell01> (its Valen here atm btw)
[08:52:15] <archivist> Russell01, depends in feedback and torque etc
[08:53:31] <Russell01> I was thinking a generic 1000 count encoder
[08:53:45] <Russell01> i was mainly wondering how they were for torque as a rule
[08:53:59] <Russell01> they seem to be high speed things in general
[08:56:35] <archivist> face mill with a big cut needs a lot of grunt
[08:56:54] <archivist> tapping needs good feedback
[08:57:33] <alex_joni> Jymmm: what do you mean?
[08:58:04] <Jymmm> alex_joni: HD mpeg2, streaming, etc
[08:58:52] <alex_joni> not really
[08:58:55] <Jymmm> ok
[08:59:00] <alex_joni> watching some from time to time though :)
[09:00:04] <christel> [Global Notice] Hi all, In a couple of minutes we will be performing a clear-out of the Services database, removing deadwood from the NickServ and ChanServ databases. This will slow down services and could temporarily flood them off. It shouldn't take particularly long though! Thank you for your patience and for using freenode!
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[09:13:00] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[09:56:21] <pjm_> pjm_ is now known as pjm
[16:11:09] <cradek> whee, a debate about the metric system, just what we need
[16:11:56] <SWPadnos> and only 30 years too late
[16:19:26] <alex_joni> 782 fortnights
[16:21:41] <seb_kuzminsky> 782 21/32ths fortnights
[16:21:52] <archivist> * archivist uses both
[16:22:05] <alex_joni> both fortnights?
[16:22:09] <archivist> yes
[16:25:49] <alex_joni> maybe 4 wythnos
[16:28:05] <skunkworks_> I think everything should be based on planks distance.
[16:30:53] <archivist> how many barn is that
[16:31:07] <alex_joni> the "Man-Eating Seals of Antiquity" are out
[17:11:10] <jimbo> Hardware purchase for EMC2 on with feedback from linear scales. 1-Mesa1 5i22 PCi card. 1-7i33T 4 axis servo amp interface. 2-7i37T 16 in 9 out isolated interface. Does this make sense or am i missing something?
[17:14:55] <skunkworks_> jimbo: is this you? http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82659
[17:15:06] <SWPadnos> that's 8 outputs, not 9
[17:15:20] <SWPadnos> otherwise, it's about right
[17:15:59] <SWPadnos> if you expect to use scales and encoders, you'll want to look at the I/O timing of the 7i37T, since one of those would be used for the secondary encoder inputs
[17:16:17] <SWPadnos> or you could get a second 7i33T, and use the spare analog outputs for spindle and whatnot
[17:16:38] <SWPadnos> (using the encoder inputs as secondaries for the furst 4 axes)
[17:16:40] <SWPadnos> first
[17:26:09] <jimbo> skunkworks: Yes this is me. The encoders on the servo motors look like they are tied into the NC400 servo drivers. would I then be able to tie my linear encoders into the 7i33T?
[17:26:46] <SWPadnos> it depends on where you want the PID to be
[17:27:09] <SWPadnos> if the velocity control in the servo drives is good, you might be able to get by without connecting the encoders to the PC
[17:27:11] <cradek> those aren't encoders
[17:27:17] <SWPadnos> resolvers?
[17:27:24] <cradek> if they go to the amps, they are tachs
[17:27:49] <SWPadnos> true, I'd be surprised if a drive from that era took encoder input
[17:27:49] <cradek> you don't hook up tachs to a 7i33
[17:28:08] <alex_joni> they can also be resolvers
[17:28:22] <cradek> oh, I read the question again -- linear encoders yes - read them with the 7i33
[17:28:33] <cradek> those do not hook to the amps
[17:29:05] <cradek> SWPadnos: without hooking the encoders to the pc? what are you talking about?
[17:29:22] <SWPadnos> oh right - I was unclear in that I meant you could possibly get by with only the linear encoders and not the motor-mounted ones (which are more likely tachs)
[17:29:38] <cradek> ah I see
[17:29:46] <SWPadnos> since I had recommended another servo card to read the secondary set of encoders
[17:31:52] <cradek> each axis has (7i33 dac AND analog tachometer -> nc400 -> motor), (encoder -> 7i33)
[17:36:45] <cradek> jimbo: do you have a good picture of the motor and all its markings?
[17:46:43] <Danimal> hey how often do you guys restart/shut down your emc2 computers?
[17:47:38] <jepler> I expect it to run for days or weeks without trouble, though I typically shut it down when I'm not planning to use it again that day.
[17:48:05] <BJT-Work> same here, shut down when finished using it for the day
[17:48:07] <jepler> 12:47:44 up 38 days, 1:37, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
[17:48:19] <jepler> ^^ this machine runs emc
[17:48:19] <archivist_attic> I shut mine down unless it has buildbot duties at the end of the day
[17:48:44] <BJT-Work> my wife gets tired of pedaling the generator after a while
[17:49:06] <archivist_attic> * archivist_attic hands BJT-Work a larger whip
[17:49:08] <Danimal> BJT-Work- hahaha my dog does too
[17:49:31] <BJT-Work> she can shoot better than me so no whips are allowed
[17:50:06] <Danimal> i scrapped a part yesterday, it lost position
[17:50:40] <Danimal> it's been acting a little weird
[17:51:20] <Danimal> freezes here and there (the computer)
[17:51:22] <archivist_attic> I have mechanical problems to sort on mine
[17:51:54] <Danimal> archivist, like what?
[17:52:07] <archivist_attic> not stiff enough
[17:52:17] <Danimal> that's what she said
[17:53:12] <Danimal> archivist what kind of machine?
[17:53:49] <SWPadnos> Danimal, if your PC freezes from time to time, you should run a long-term memtest, and possibly something that exercises the CPU a lot
[17:55:02] <Danimal> SWPadnos, think my mem might be bad?
[17:55:09] <SWPadnos> it could be
[17:55:31] <SWPadnos> there's definitely something wrong with the PC if it "freezes here and there"
[17:55:45] <SWPadnos> unless it always freezes when doing some particular thing
[17:55:54] <BJT-Work> I know my memory is bad or at least I think so
[17:55:54] <Jymmm> memcheck?
[17:56:04] <SWPadnos> memtest86+
[17:56:16] <Jymmm> for 24 hours
[17:56:47] <SWPadnos> at least
[17:57:08] <Danimal> ram for that thing is probably $$$, it's an old pentium 3 box
[17:57:14] <archivist_attic> Danimal, homebrew 5 axis mill
[17:57:32] <Danimal> archivist, nice! any pics?
[17:57:45] <Danimal> c frame?
[17:58:00] <jimbo> Working on the picture. had to go buy batteries for the camera.
[17:59:10] <cradek> remember the internet before cheap digital cameras? we had to use scanners for everything. sometimes polaroids + scanners.
[17:59:24] <Danimal> haha
[17:59:26] <Danimal> yea
[17:59:36] <BJT-Work> dang your old cradek :)
[17:59:45] <Jymmm> cradek: What do you before? I still use my scanner
[17:59:46] <Danimal> still got my scanner somewhere
[17:59:50] <BJT-Work> I remember 5 1/4 floppies
[17:59:57] <BJT-Work> and still have a bunch
[18:01:01] <jimbo> I not only have 5 1/4 inch floppys but I have a couple of 8" hanging along with a ZRdos machine...
[18:01:32] <archivist_attic> 8" floppy rulz
[18:01:35] <Jymmm> Actually, I have the coolest scanner around... 1" thick (including cover) and USB powered.
[18:02:27] <Danimal> should i bother considering a computer upgrade for my machine? it's an old 1.4ghz pentium 3 compaq server.... the jitter was like 17000ns
[18:02:41] <cradek> if it has enough ram, it'll be fine
[18:03:09] <Jymmm> Though, I am looking for a color AIO that's network ready, ADF,and duplex printing
[18:03:25] <Danimal> somewhere around 520mb or so i think
[18:03:47] <Jymmm> compaq server should be able to take more ram
[18:04:25] <Danimal> it can take 2 processors but only has 1
[18:04:26] <cradek> 512 is probably good enough
[18:04:35] <cradek> yeah, more would be better
[18:04:45] <cradek> might need registered PC133 though - it can be kind of hard to find
[18:05:33] <Danimal> thats what i was thinking.... i think i'd replace the computer before i delt with ram in it
[18:05:38] <Jymmm> Danimal: what model
[18:06:41] <Danimal> it has 640mb of ram
[18:06:56] <Jymmm> Danimal: what model?
[18:07:17] <Danimal> Jymmm proliant ml330
[18:07:27] <Jymmm> I'm gonna guess a proliagn
[18:07:30] <Jymmm> lol
[18:08:17] <Jymmm> ml330 what?
[18:08:28] <Danimal> thats all it says on it
[18:08:36] <Danimal> lemme look at the back
[18:08:41] <skunkworks_> ml330 sir!
[18:08:44] <archivist_attic> Danimal, stacked A on B http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2009/2009_05_27_cnc/IMG_0246.JPG
[18:09:46] <Danimal> oh it says g2 on it near the top
[18:09:52] <Jymmm> ty
[18:10:55] <Jymmm> how many slots are in it?
[18:11:10] <Jymmm> and how much would you liek to go up to max?
[18:11:17] <Jymmm> max ram 4GB
[18:11:26] <Jymmm> oh 4 slots.
[18:11:26] <Danimal> hold on, lemme pop the cover
[18:11:32] <Jymmm> nm
[18:11:35] <Jymmm> it's 4 slots
[18:11:43] <cradek> 4 256s shouldn't be too hard to find or expensive
[18:12:12] <Danimal> i only use it for emc2, so what do you think would be best?
[18:12:18] <Jymmm> $29.85/ea for 256 pc133 RE
[18:13:05] <Danimal> http://stores.channeladvisor.com/4-All-Deals/items/item.aspx?itemid=5847344
[18:13:26] <Danimal> 21 bucks for 1 gig, not bad at all
[18:13:37] <Jymmm> up to 4 GB too
[18:13:41] <Danimal> yea
[18:14:09] <Danimal> what do you think would be sufficient?
[18:14:20] <Jymmm> 256TB
[18:14:24] <Danimal> haha
[18:14:32] <SWPadnos> 640MB is sufficient
[18:14:39] <cradek> 768MB would be plenty, 1GB would be luxurious
[18:14:40] <Jymmm> 640KM
[18:14:43] <Jymmm> KB
[18:14:52] <SWPadnos> 512M or 1G would be fine, if you do find that your existing memory is bad
[18:15:03] <Jymmm> 640KB is all anyone woudl ever need
[18:15:13] <Jymmm> btw... http://configurator.oempcworld.com/result.asp?mn=ProLiant+ML330+G2&modelid=31860
[18:15:18] <SWPadnos> oh, I've never even needed that much
[18:15:21] <SWPadnos> ... on my watch
[18:15:33] <Jymmm> I have
[18:16:24] <Danimal> do you think i should try to find another p3 processor and toss second one in there
[18:16:24] <SWPadnos> I don't have a Dick Tracy GPS watch
[18:17:04] <Jymmm> No GPS, just two-way video communicator
[18:17:09] <alex_joni> Danimal: for emc2 it doesn't pay off, unless you want to change the kernel to take advantage of SMP
[18:17:10] <jepler> a second CPU? no. without rebuilding or using experimental packages, emc only uses one CPU or core
[18:18:29] <Danimal> archivist, very cool machine, i like the 5th axis unit. where do you think your rigidity issues are coming from?
[18:18:46] <Jymmm> Y'all know that there are 8 core systems these days, right?
[18:18:49] <Danimal> ok, cool, that saves me 20-30 bucks
[18:19:00] <Jymmm> one coe per axis!!!!!
[18:19:18] <Jymmm> core
[18:19:40] <jepler> Jymmm: that isn't as great an idea as it sounds, since each axis has to be moved in lockstep with the others
[18:19:44] <Danimal> i keep getting joint errors, even when i turn down the velocity
[18:20:03] <Danimal> every once in a while the pc will lock up when i'm jogging
[18:20:10] <Jymmm> jepler: Well, though logic in there will a, eeessh! ;)
[18:20:11] <Danimal> then i have to restart the computer
[18:20:16] <Jymmm> throw
[18:21:21] <Jymmm> jepler: logic as in your arument, not as a solution
[18:21:32] <alex_joni> Danimal: that sounds bad
[18:21:41] <SWPadnos> Jymmm, there are 32-core PC systems these days. They've beed around for a couple of years
[18:21:50] <alex_joni> random lockups are certainly a nono, and usually a sign to run memtest over night
[18:22:00] <alex_joni> or check temperature, or other things that can cause lockups
[18:22:14] <Danimal> seems to be ok when i run a program, it's only when i jog that it acts up
[18:22:23] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: But nothing to take advantage of them, and as jepler pointed out too.
[18:22:33] <alex_joni> that's surely something you are imagining ;)
[18:22:46] <alex_joni> Jymmm: RTAI can take advantage of SMP
[18:22:46] <SWPadnos> I can take advantage of them quite nicely, thank you very much :)
[18:22:50] <mozmck> from what it looks like to me a dual core could have a considerable advantage...
[18:23:02] <alex_joni> it's just that building packages for every SMP out there is not possible
[18:23:06] <mozmck> over single core
[18:23:09] <Danimal> expecially in the z axis... for some reason it hates jogging in z
[18:23:19] <alex_joni> some SMP require combinations of ACPI, APIC, etc that on other machines won't boot at all
[18:23:23] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: What, one pr0n site per core?
[18:23:24] <SWPadnos> mozmck, it depends on the type of multi-core system, and oh how well RTAI can be configured for it
[18:23:30] <Danimal> i gotta keep the velocity below 45ipm
[18:23:31] <mozmck> hmm.
[18:23:46] <SWPadnos> Jymmm, no, but I can think of some image processing tasks that could be sped up dramatically :)
[18:24:00] <mozmck> I know debian had a number of kernels at one time, but I'm not sure if they still do.
[18:24:00] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: But only like 5%
[18:24:03] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: those might still be used for pr0n lateron
[18:24:10] <SWPadnos> depends on the images
[18:24:18] <alex_joni> mozmck: they still do, and ubuntu does too
[18:24:20] <SWPadnos> Jymmm, no, the speedup is nearly linear with the number of cores
[18:24:30] <SWPadnos> you can run multiple copies of the processing software
[18:24:31] <alex_joni> depends on the app though
[18:24:35] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: what app?
[18:24:39] <alex_joni> if it's threadable
[18:24:46] <SWPadnos> almost any of them, but Imagemagick comes to mind
[18:24:52] <alex_joni> Jymmm: say batch-processing of a folder
[18:25:06] <SWPadnos> in my recent experience, a single instance only used one core, and possibly sometimes two
[18:25:12] <mozmck> do you think we might could do something like that at some time?
[18:25:23] <alex_joni> mozmck: some people already did
[18:25:31] <alex_joni> but as I said, it's very computer specific
[18:25:39] <alex_joni> what runs for them, might not run for you
[18:25:48] <mozmck> in experimental right?
[18:25:51] <SWPadnos> mozmck, it's possible now, but I wouldn't expect a fully-configured SMP liveCD (with all the isolcpus/cpusets defined) any time soon
[18:25:51] <alex_joni> so you'll have to try it (no support ;), or do it yourself
[18:25:53] <Jymmm> Guys we've had this discussion before and unless the app is multi core, not gonna happen.
[18:26:10] <alex_joni> Jymmm: or the app can be run more than one time
[18:26:15] <SWPadnos> Jymmm, you can always run more than one copy at a time if your app is single-threaded
[18:26:21] <alex_joni> as in logical separated operations
[18:26:48] <SWPadnos> you can even do a pipeline where multiple copies do different things to the same image, but they do it at the same time on consecutive images
[18:26:49] <mozmck> does each mb chipset cause different problems, or does it have mostly to do with the cpu?
[18:26:50] <Jymmm> Yeah, doen't help when transcoding a mpeg2 stream to have multiple iterations
[18:27:08] <alex_joni> mozmck: it's a combination of chipset, processor and BIOS
[18:27:09] <SWPadnos> you then have a latency "problem", but while your pipe is full, you get linear speedup
[18:27:19] <mozmck> ah...
[18:27:24] <SWPadnos> and also configuration
[18:27:33] <SWPadnos> a dual-core machine should have isolcpus=1 (probably)
[18:27:51] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: at least for 5-6 more kernel versions
[18:27:51] <SWPadnos> a quad-core (or triple or 6-core) might want to use cpusets and IRQ steering
[18:28:07] <alex_joni> after that isolcpus will be deprecated
[18:28:16] <Danimal> archivist, is your z axis a ball screw, or just a thread?
[18:28:29] <mozmck> I left on the basic acpi with the thermal stuff, and still got very low jitter btw
[18:28:43] <SWPadnos> alex_joni, ok, the CPUSet equivalent of isolcpus, but with or without IRQ steering is another issue
[18:28:45] <mozmck> turned off all other acpi stuff
[18:29:22] <SWPadnos> with 3+ cores, you can even have RT tasks (and the timer interrupt) on one core, EMC-related userspace apps on another, and the rest of the OS on the other(s)
[18:29:30] <alex_joni> mozmck: in your case that might be ok
[18:29:35] <alex_joni> on the next machine it might not
[18:29:46] <mozmck> if you have only 2 cores, does it hurt to put more than that in the rtai config?
[18:29:49] <alex_joni> that's why our kernel has the options that might make sense on the most machines
[18:29:58] <alex_joni> mozmck: depends on the rtai version :)
[18:30:09] <alex_joni> but I think it's safe to put 8
[18:30:28] <mozmck> alex_joni: I figured that re the acpi. I just expected worse on my machine.
[18:30:40] <mozmck> I'm using 3.7 from cvs
[18:31:04] <Danimal> archivist, throw an indicator on the spindle and try lifting the head, and try moving it side to side. linear rails tend to not be very rigid... you might have some issues there. seems like they almost amplify chatter
[18:31:47] <alex_joni> mozmck: 3.7 is released, you can grab the latest
[18:31:56] <alex_joni> but either one should be ok
[18:32:28] <mozmck> I think I got cvs because it had a patch for linux and the release did not.
[18:32:59] <Danimal> man i didnt have my retract hight set high enough, and i cut right through a big clamp yesterday
[18:33:28] <mozmck> I was just curious if rtai would need to be compiled different for different smp configurations as well.
[18:34:01] <Danimal> couldnt believe it... carbide half inch endmill, machine was in rapid, probably a .700" cut, and the machine didnt even flinch
[18:34:27] <Danimal> blew right through it like butter, no damage to the cutter
[18:34:31] <cradek> heh, that's probably how you're supposed to cut with it
[18:34:35] <jepler> mozmck: in the olden days (rtai 3.2 or so) we found that an smp rtai kernel wouldn't boot on some single processor machines
[18:34:41] <mozmck> wow!
[18:34:54] <Danimal> yea, i've been severly underworking the machine lol
[18:35:19] <jepler> smp has apic, so rtai compiled for smp assumes apic, but not all single processor machines have apic, particular in older systems
[18:35:25] <jepler> (or assumed, in the 3.2 era)
[18:36:10] <alex_joni> apic, lapic and there was another one still
[18:36:20] <mozmck> jepler: I was think along the lines of maybe having 4 or 5 or so kernel versions like debian does, k8, k7, i686-dual-core,
[18:36:44] <alex_joni> mozmck: it takes a lot of time to build and test only one
[18:36:44] <mozmck> that the end user would choose from depending on his system.
[18:36:53] <jepler> mozmck: that's fine, as soon as you supply me with a dozen stout men to build all the packages
[18:36:56] <mozmck> I can see that
[18:36:58] <mozmck> :)
[18:36:59] <jepler> mozmck: a different build of emc is required for each different kernel
[18:37:00] <alex_joni> maybe 3-4 weeks of work till it's stable enough
[18:37:08] <alex_joni> doing that 6-7 times is crazy imo :D
[18:37:21] <mozmck> jepler: because of rtai?
[18:37:37] <alex_joni> because we supply kernel modules along with emc2
[18:37:43] <jepler> mozmck: because emc uses kernel modules, and kernel modules are not portable from one kernel to another; certainly not from a kernel for cpu type A to cpu type B
[18:37:45] <mozmck> oh yeah.
[18:37:48] <alex_joni> those need to be the same version as the running kernel
[18:38:09] <alex_joni> we "could" one day provide uncompiled modules, and have them compiled on demand
[18:38:11] <mozmck> I should remember that, I just had problems with that as I was getting my setup working.
[18:38:21] <alex_joni> like nvidia does, but that's a lot of work for limited results
[18:38:37] <mozmck> yeah.
[18:38:38] <jepler> or we could switch to lxrt
[18:38:43] <alex_joni> or that
[18:38:52] <jepler> any of these options require someone who is dedicated to the idea
[18:38:58] <mozmck> what is that? I saw it mentioned in rtai
[18:39:08] <alex_joni> userspace RT
[18:39:09] <jepler> it is a way for linux userspace programs to run as realtime
[18:39:15] <mozmck> oh yeah
[18:39:17] <jepler> the way we use rt, only kernel modules can run as realtime
[18:39:29] <mozmck> i see.
[18:39:53] <cradek> I had never thought of doing something like the nvidia thing, but that's an interesting idea.
[18:40:01] <cradek> since there's already infrastructure for it
[18:40:19] <cradek> but yeah, I agree (needs someone who is interested to figure it out)
[18:40:21] <mozmck> there is an app in debian (and i think ubuntu) called module-assistant
[18:40:40] <mozmck> m-a for short. it will download and compile kernel modules
[18:41:20] <SWPadnos> dkms is the modern "auto-compile modules when necessary" system
[18:41:27] <jepler> (and there are a few non-module things that depend strongly on the kernel version -- emc_module_helper has paths that are kernel-version-dependent; halcmd and the userspace libemchal are conditionally compiled depending on rtai vs rtl vs sim; and maybe others that don't instantly come to mind)
[18:41:37] <mozmck> hadn't heard of that one.
[18:41:38] <SWPadnos> it's included in 9.04, and it works quite nicely in my experience
[18:41:52] <SWPadnos> "dynamic kernel module system" or some such
[18:43:02] <SWPadnos> I had the pleasant experience of updating my kernel, and having the NVidia driver get comiled on the next boot, with my graphical login showing up just like nothing had happened (though it tok a little while longer)
[18:43:07] <SWPadnos> compiled
[18:44:26] <mozmck> interesting. I tried to recompile the nvidia driver after putting linux2.6.29.4 with rtai and emc on 9.04 and it just complained.
[18:44:55] <SWPadnos> you may need to register the RTAI kernel with dkms or something
[18:45:13] <SWPadnos> I don't recall exactly how to do that
[18:45:36] <mozmck> could be. I may look it up.
[18:46:14] <SWPadnos> oh, did you make / make install the kernel, or install it as a debian package?
[18:46:21] <mozmck> make install
[18:46:31] <mozmck> no, make-kpkg
[18:46:33] <SWPadnos> I made an RT SMP kernel on 9.04, but did it as a package, and dkms picked it up
[18:46:38] <mozmck> make install was for emc
[18:46:40] <SWPadnos> ok
[18:47:30] <mozmck> i figured the ubuntu kernel had some patches it needed, and I used vanilla
[18:47:49] <alex_joni> it's best not to have the nvidia driver and emc2 together
[18:48:25] <mozmck> that's why I wasn't too worried about it. but I had wanted to try it on this dual-core and see what it did.
[18:48:40] <SWPadnos> it seems to work, though I do get some higher latencies when I'm flipping the desktop cube around
[18:49:14] <mozmck> I see. did you set isolcpus?
[18:50:10] <mozmck> gotta go. bbl
[18:50:15] <SWPadnos> no, I don't think so
[18:50:18] <SWPadnos> see you
[18:54:27] <jimbo> cradek: The pictures you asked for are up. http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82659&page=2
[18:55:06] <cradek> aha, tachometer 19 volts/1000 rpm
[18:55:10] <cradek> so that answers that
[18:56:00] <cradek> but, the tach may be in the motor itself. if so, and if there is something stuck on the end, it may be an encoder or resolver too
[18:56:24] <alex_joni> cradek: 1.9V/1000 rpm
[18:56:41] <alex_joni> maybe not..
[18:57:05] <alex_joni> hmm.. no, 19V is right
[18:57:07] <cradek> I bet it's 19
[18:57:27] <alex_joni> yeah, the 1 that's a bit lower (serial number) is the same
[18:57:31] <cradek> MAX VOLTS 11 is curious
[18:57:39] <cradek> I bet they mean 110
[18:57:59] <cradek> I think the NC400 has a DC bus of 100 volts
[18:58:34] <SWPadnos> the max volts is for the motor, not the tach
[18:58:42] <SWPadnos> and it does say .311 V-s/rad
[18:58:42] <cradek> I know - but 11??
[18:59:39] <jepler> .311 V-s/rad = 32.6 V / 1000 rpm
[19:00:12] <alex_joni> * 3600 (max rpm)
[19:00:23] <alex_joni> ~ 117V
[19:00:31] <cradek> yeah it must be 110
[19:00:50] <alex_joni> might be max current
[19:00:52] <alex_joni> 11A
[19:00:56] <alex_joni> 30 lb-in
[19:01:01] <alex_joni> and 2.75 lb-in/amp
[19:01:07] <alex_joni> -> 11 Amps max
[19:01:20] <SWPadnos> they swapped the RMS amps and voltage ratings on the nameplate
[19:01:21] <cradek> ohhhh it says 117 amps
[19:01:22] <cradek> they reversed them
[19:01:47] <alex_joni> heh, our math is right :D
[19:01:50] <cradek> POWERTRON hahaha
[19:02:22] <alex_joni> now with labels for the eager engineer!
[19:02:45] <alex_joni> watchful?
[19:02:45] <cradek> jimbo: so is there anything on the end of the motor?
[19:03:39] <jimbo> cradeck there is a bump that the wiring is fed int. I will take another pic.
[19:03:42] <anonimasu> alex_joni: got time for a weld question?
[19:04:17] <alex_joni> cradek: looks like it: http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss35/jimbo-colleen/95a7_11.jpg
[19:04:24] <alex_joni> anonimasu: sure
[19:04:32] <skunkworks_> So then the next question is - what are the scales and what do they output?
[19:04:35] <alex_joni> we'll see if also for an answer :D
[19:04:42] <anonimasu> haha
[19:05:22] <anonimasu> though my big problem requires a drawing so I can show it properly
[19:06:23] <anonimasu> anwyway, we have some problems with some stuff breaking out of cracks forming in the welds..
[19:06:46] <anonimasu> ie, weld acts like a stress riser, and stuff cracks after enough time
[19:07:22] <anonimasu> we are pondering some design changes to make things hold(I'll throw you a pic when I get it drawn)
[19:07:55] <anonimasu> how well, does tig treating welds work to combat thoose kind of things?
[19:11:17] <alex_joni> anonimasu: depends when the cracks appear
[19:11:27] <alex_joni> did you inspect the weld itself?
[19:11:33] <anonimasu> yes I did
[19:11:38] <alex_joni> how?
[19:11:44] <anonimasu> visually..
[19:12:11] <alex_joni> did you use penetrants ?
[19:12:21] <alex_joni> I'd suggest you try that
[19:12:25] <anonimasu> hm, the crack was visible enough without
[19:12:36] <alex_joni> oh, so you can see the crack just after welding?
[19:12:42] <alex_joni> that's really bad :D
[19:12:45] <anonimasu> ah no
[19:12:49] <anonimasu> the welds are good after welding
[19:12:54] <alex_joni> I mean right after weld
[19:12:58] <alex_joni> use penetrants
[19:13:08] <alex_joni> you can show cracks even if tiny, and you miss them by eye
[19:13:12] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[19:13:18] <alex_joni> get some sprays
[19:13:22] <alex_joni> usually a set has 3
[19:13:23] <anonimasu> got them already
[19:13:27] <alex_joni> ok then
[19:13:32] <alex_joni> next is material type
[19:13:58] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wonders if we should switch to private or some other channel..
[19:14:05] <anonimasu> yeah, probably
[19:14:26] <skunkworks_> join weldingstuff
[19:14:28] <skunkworks_> ;)
[19:19:58] <jimbo> cradek: Images are up
[19:21:02] <jimbo> skunkworks: The scales are heidenhain LS903
[19:21:06] <cradek> ok, that's just wiring - no encoder there
[19:21:30] <cradek> the motor has extra non-powered brushes that act like a tachometer. those are the two small wires.
[19:21:46] <cradek> along with the big motor power wires, those go to the servo amp too.
[19:28:16] <cradek> can't find specs for those scales. I hope they have index somehow...
[19:33:01] <skunkworks_> hmm - looks like the scales can hook into a QUADRA CHEK II READOUT - kinda makes you think quadrature
[19:33:34] <cradek> surely they are quadrature if they were used for cnc?
[19:33:42] <cradek> if used for dro, who knows
[19:34:30] <jepler> in other news, who knew that DROs now look like consumer electronics or something from startrek, with random useless swoops and curves: http://www.metronics.com/digital_metrology_readouts.php
[19:35:04] <cradek> QC-100 comes with a tricorder!
[19:35:34] <skunkworks_> heh - I cannot believe there is still a market for dro's ;)
[19:36:32] <cradek> new ones even
[19:38:42] <Danimal> whats better than a dro??
[19:38:51] <Danimal> i need something for my bridgeport
[19:39:02] <Danimal> sick of using the dials
[19:39:11] <jepler> cnc is better than a dro
[19:39:12] <skunkworks_> interesting way to add 'screened' looke to a pcb (print out a paper and apply it to the board) http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=624948&postcount=134
[19:39:33] <Danimal> yea, but i'm not putting in ball screws and all that crap
[19:39:42] <skunkworks_> why would I want to look at a dro and manually move the machine into place when I can just command it ;)
[19:40:47] <Danimal> i use my manual machine over my cnc probably 90% of the time
[19:41:10] <Danimal> quicker for onsies and twosies
[19:41:18] <Danimal> onesies*
[19:41:25] <skunkworks_> then you don't have a jog wheel on your cnc...
[19:41:44] <Danimal> no, but even if i did...
[19:41:58] <skunkworks_> :)
[19:42:11] <Danimal> i've been running manual machines all of my life, i'm faster on a manual mill than a cnc
[19:43:30] <Danimal> i use the cnc for big hole patterns or stuff that you cant realy do on a manual easily, like radi and angles
[19:44:00] <Danimal> and also production work
[19:44:17] <Danimal> but i'm a toolmaker, so i dont see much of that
[19:44:44] <Danimal> roughing alot of material is good cnc work too
[19:45:04] <Jymmm> * Jymmm hands Danimal a drawing on a cocktail napkin... make me one of these
[19:46:06] <Danimal> sure, napkin drawings are my specialty lol
[19:46:41] <Jymmm> Danimal: it's a tap btw, not a sex toy
[19:46:57] <Danimal> says you!
[19:47:16] <skunkworks_> one mans tap....
[19:47:17] <Danimal> ribbed for her pleasure
[19:47:28] <Jymmm> Danimal: I never siad it couldn't be used as such, just that that is not what it is
[19:48:30] <Danimal> napkin sketches are open to interpretation
[19:48:55] <Jymmm> lol, true
[19:49:07] <alex_joni> good night all
[19:49:15] <Jymmm> Nite Alex
[19:49:25] <Danimal> nite alex_joni
[19:50:16] <Danimal> man it would be pretty cool to emc2-tize my manual lathe
[19:53:26] <Danimal> i think i need to finish my mill first though
[19:53:53] <ubuntuuser007> can
[19:54:20] <ubuntuuser007> I run emc2.deb in a simulator mode?
[19:54:37] <ubuntuuser007> i.e. without compiling it from nthe source?\
[19:54:48] <ubuntuuser007> alex_joni: ?
[19:55:16] <Jymmm> alex_joni: went to sleep already
[19:55:43] <ubuntuuser007> so, can I?
[19:56:04] <Jymmm> nfc
[19:56:08] <alex_joni> there are simulator-only packages
[19:56:14] <ubuntuuser007> "nfc"??
[19:56:14] <alex_joni> * alex_joni came back from sleep for that :)
[19:56:27] <ubuntuuser007> :))
[19:56:38] <Jymmm> zombie alex!
[19:57:36] <ubuntuuser007> alex_joni: can i train myself on a laptop with that "debian" way of installation through packets
[19:57:38] <ubuntuuser007> ?
[19:57:52] <alex_joni> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMC2_Pure_Simulator
[19:57:56] <ubuntuuser007> ok
[19:58:09] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is really off to sleep now
[19:58:28] <ubuntuuser007> ok, thanks a lot.
[19:58:29] <ubuntuuser007> compiling takes too much time
[20:17:09] <jimbo> cradek: The LS 903 scales tiee directly into the TNC145 controller.
[20:17:26] <anonimasu> jimbo: you can probably forget about heidenhain scales, most likely
[20:17:31] <anonimasu> they are often ~
[20:24:53] <jimbo> ~ meaning
[20:26:59] <skunkworks_> scope it!
[20:29:35] <anonimasu> sinus signals..
[20:30:02] <anonimasu> http://www.auto-met.com/heidenhain/sealed_le/LS_187C.htm
[20:30:10] <jimbo> so there output is a sine wave
[20:30:51] <jimbo> And what I neet is digital
[20:35:54] <jimbo> What you are saying is that most of the time they are defective. And I need to scope them to see if they are good?
[20:38:36] <skunkworks_> anonimasu think your scales might output sinwave. You need square wave. If you cannot find any info on them - checking with a scope is about the only way.
[20:40:47] <cradek> they may plug in to a convertor/conditioner circuit that converts them to quadrature. if so, maybe you can keep that part.
[20:42:39] <jimbo> That is part of the main controller but i am not against gutting the controller. It sounds like this is the only sticky wicket...
[20:44:26] <jimbo> I have to go make someones computer work and someone elses AV system sound good........
[20:46:23] <anonimasu> skunkworks_: most heidenhain scales do tath
[20:47:15] <anonimasu> that..
[20:47:20] <anonimasu> there's converters for them though
[20:48:22] <jimbo> Converters is good... ? where do I find or who sells them..
[20:50:37] <anonimasu> google
[20:51:07] <cradek> if they have a resolver type output, you can use the pico systems resolver-to-quadrature boards
[20:51:13] <cradek> I used those on my lathe retrofit
[20:53:18] <anonimasu> heidenhain sells the converters too
[20:54:17] <anonimasu> http://www.heidenhain.com/wcmsmimefiles/208_961_24_16952.PDF
[20:57:28] <anonimasu> http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/archive/index.php/t-21140.html
[20:57:34] <skunkworks_> looks like they make ttl output scales also - I wonder how lucky jimbo is. ;)
[20:58:33] <skunkworks_> wow - the windows viruses are getting nastier and nastier.
[20:58:37] <anonimasu> I think he's unlucky.. :)
[20:58:47] <jimbo> I have not powerd up yet I will work on this tonight.
[20:59:07] <jimbo> For my sake I want to get lucky tonight.....
[21:00:39] <anonimasu> hm..
[21:00:49] <anonimasu> your control dosent look so awful ...
[21:01:09] <anonimasu> (though I might be looking at tnc-150) docs
[21:02:27] <jimbo> My control is only a 2 1/2 D. All is good except for the monitor which is toast.
[21:02:46] <anonimasu> I see
[21:09:38] <anonimasu> they are sinusoidal scales..
[21:09:52] <anonimasu> 1Vpp or 1uApp
[21:32:35] <jepler> I wonder who figured out this clever quadrature decoding algorithm: http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/weird_quadrature_decoder.py -- I still don't follow it, but it does work.
[21:35:02] <anonimasu> hehe
[21:45:28] <LawrenceG> jepler, yes... that is a mind bender.. one table lookup is so much easier on the head
[21:51:38] <jepler> hm, I wonder if mesa has considered shipping 7i43s with a step-to-pwm-servo fpga firmware. 4 axis servo plus 24 I/O points with some weird multiplexing to the parport. might be a way to capture mach customers.
[21:51:42] <jepler> maybe they don't want mach customers :-P
[22:04:27] <Spida> a question for the circuit board milling guys: how do you make vias (side-to-otherside connections)?
[22:06:56] <jepler> Spida: I make only single-sided boards, so I don't deal with that problem
[22:07:51] <jepler> Spida: but basically, just put a tiny length of wire in the via and solder on both sides
[22:08:51] <Spida> thaht wouldnt work below my smds...
[22:08:59] <Spida> http://www.spida.net/tmp/platinen/whirlygig-bottom.jpg http://www.spida.net/tmp/platinen/whirlygig-brd.png
[22:12:29] <jepler> I think you can get this pretty flat on one side but not on both
[22:12:57] <jepler> place the board on a flat surface. Insert a wire prepared to be only as thick as the board. solder that side. after soldering all wires on that side, flip and solder the second side
[22:13:10] <jepler> the tip of the wire will be flush with the copper on the second side, so the only added height is the solder
[22:14:38] <guest3673456> guest3673456 is now known as FlyingElectron
[22:17:04] <FlyingElectron> Hi All! I have a machine where I installed 2.3.1 from the live CD. I downloaded and built the latest source (2.4.0 pre) but when I try to run it I get a "HAL: ERROR: version code mismatch" and a "HAL: ERROR: could not init shared memory" errors. Anyone have any ideas what I can try to get it to work?
[22:19:18] <jepler> FlyingElectron: when building emc yourself, use the --enable-run-in-place flag when you ./configure, and always "source scripts/emc-environment" in the terminal where you will run emc commands.
[22:22:02] <jepler> bbl
[22:22:32] <FlyingElectron> i think i built with the --enable-run-in-place flag, but let me try it again. From the src directory, i do a "./configure --enable-run-in-place" followed by a "make && sudo make setuid"
[22:22:54] <jepler> right so far
[22:24:17] <jepler> then what commands did you enter to run emc? You should have done something like: cd .. (to go out of 'src' to the top directory), source scripts/emc-environment (to set up the terminal to run this version of emc instead of the installed version), emc (to start it up)
[22:24:42] <FlyingElectron> in the scripts directory, i did a ". ./emc-environment" followed by a "./emc"
[22:25:10] <FlyingElectron> i deleted the source code and am doing a fresh checkout
[22:25:30] <FlyingElectron> i had an old 2.3.x source code that i did an update on, and i'm thinking maybe something didn't update right
[22:25:50] <FlyingElectron> maybe i had some changes that I made that didn't merge correctly
[22:25:56] <jepler> what you did sounds correct
[22:26:01] <jepler> anyway, I have to go. bbl.
[22:26:11] <FlyingElectron> thanks for your help!
[22:26:17] <jepler> "The quality is the most excellence!"
[22:26:58] <FlyingElectron> haha, that sounds like some of the foreign documentation i get sometimes
[23:53:42] <mozmck> FlyingElectron: have you tried running through sudo?
[23:55:22] <SWPadnos> mozmck, though that's probably good advice for determining what's wrong, if you need sudo then by definition something is wrong
[23:56:02] <FlyingElectron> i figured it out
[23:56:07] <FlyingElectron> i had a bad update from cvs
[23:56:31] <FlyingElectron> from an old 2.3 to the new 2.4
[23:56:51] <mozmck> SWPadnos: true, but it sounded somewhat similar to the problem I had with limits.conf
[23:56:54] <FlyingElectron> i deleted the source and did a fresh checkout from cvs and it made my erros go away
[23:57:05] <SWPadnos> mozmck, ok - just checking ;)
[23:57:33] <SWPadnos> FlyingElectron, strange
[23:57:58] <SWPadnos> a make clean should fix just about anything for RIP
[23:58:14] <FlyingElectron> i think i may have had some modified code in the old source so maybe the merge during cvs update didn't go right