#emc | Logs for 2009-05-25

[01:30:45] <tom3p> is this http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?SimulatedMachine compatible with this http://www.jcinacio.com/projects/vmware-ubuntujeos-804/ ??
[01:30:49] <tom3p> ( emc sim under vmware hardy 'jeos' so i can play without any hardware ) ??
[01:59:31] <SWPLinux_> SWPLinux_ is now known as SWPLinux
[02:13:19] <GavNZ> Can I ask support questions here?
[02:15:23] <Valen> no, you my only ask questions about monty python and the search for the holy grail
[02:15:38] <Valen> ;->
[02:16:04] <Valen> you might not get a speedy answer though, most of the people here are in the USA I think
[02:16:10] <Valen> (or thereabouts)
[02:19:53] <GavNZ> HAve you any experience with a G540?
[02:22:35] <SkinnYPuP> I've done a few other gecko stepper drives, g251 and g203v
[02:24:01] <tom3p> the only mention on wiki is on a wish list for step cfg
[02:24:26] <GavNZ> You may be able to help. I have a 3-axis router with steppers and I'm running EMC2 (obviously). I am getting a positioning error in 1-axis only and I can only put it down to missing steps. I am using the standard gecko settings in the stepconf wizard. Does the G540's requirements fit with these?
[02:25:56] <atex57> It seems to me that one of the Gurus placed a G540 file at Gecko.com . Check there in there archives or something like that.
[02:27:36] <tom3p> plug this into the google search field site:www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc g540
[02:27:42] <tom3p> lotsa discussion
[02:27:54] <GavNZ> Thanks, I did try their .xml file but I think that was for Mach3?
[02:29:27] <tom3p> the above search only yields stuff from emc's wiki about g540
[02:29:27] <GavNZ> Thanks! I'll read through those posts and see if I can find anything
[02:29:32] <tom3p> np
[02:30:10] <tom3p> tune in here & ask again (just few heads right now)
[02:30:39] <GavNZ> cool, appreciate it
[02:31:45] <Valen> so any of you guys from australia?
[02:40:52] <GavNZ> nz
[02:45:03] <LawrenceG> Canada
[02:51:13] <SWPLinux_> SWPLinux_ is now known as SWPLinux
[06:17:54] <micges> good morning
[06:27:37] <alex_joni> morning
[06:53:17] <Vq^> morgen
[07:08:22] <alex_joni> God mórgon!
[07:09:36] <alex_joni> Vq^: Hur är det?
[07:10:37] <Vq^> i can't complain
[07:12:21] <Vq^> still alive and doing what i like :)
[07:15:01] <Vq^> does that phrase mean that you took the Mastering Swedish lessons? :o)
[07:16:08] <alex_joni> lol
[07:16:14] <alex_joni> a long time ago ;)
[07:17:40] <Vq^> did they have the fifth lesson then? otherwise i recommend downloading it
[07:18:02] <Vq^> it's very amusing :)
[07:25:00] <alex_joni> Vq^: I would probably have to take them again :D
[07:25:38] <alex_joni> Skönt skjut i ett skjul är kul vid jul
[07:26:47] <Vq^> :D
[07:27:38] <Vq^> Ball balbil för far for förbi fyr och får för fort
[11:26:57] <BigJohnT> http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/id,286/catid,10/limit,6/limitstart,6/lang,en/
[13:56:28] <tom3p> woohoo, the dload rate is 300k here, the ubuntu hardy desktop vmware image will NOT take 1.3 days :)
[14:12:36] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[14:22:16] <geo01005> So I take it Seb never got a chance to work on SPI support for HM2 at the fest?
[14:27:32] <tom3p> i noticed hot-wire and wire edm grouped together on a linux cnc org poll.
[14:27:39] <tom3p> yep, the motion is similar, but the velocity is based on different ideas ( time or process).
[14:27:40] <tom3p> maybe, the same tho. does the hot-wire wire cool down if it goes 'toofast', does it get hotter if 'too slow'?
[14:28:13] <tom3p> (is the tool temp dependant on work done ?)
[14:32:10] <BigJohnT> tom3p: yes in foam cutting the nichrome wire will cool down in the middle and lag behind if you go to fast and that makes an ugly wing core :)
[14:33:10] <tom3p> hmm, sounds like a need for temp feedback to velocity ( simpler to test than wedm )
[14:34:28] <tom3p> oops, by middle do you mean middle of path or middle of tool length? ( bowing of tool i suspect , inconsistant temp over its length )
[14:34:40] <colin_> middle of the wire
[14:34:47] <BigJohnT> yes in the middle of the wire
[14:35:55] <BigJohnT> doing it by hand you have to arrive at a speed that does not undercut (too slow) or lag behind in the middle (too fast) by trial and scrap
[14:37:53] <tom3p> has anyone monitored the average temp to observe this ( the uneven temp )? do you think it'd be a viable feedback?
[14:38:50] <tom3p> if so, a meter of sorts would make 'by hand' easier
[14:40:27] <tom3p> and would model how to automate it ( use it as feedback to the new velocity update)
[14:43:10] <tom3p> the same thing happens in wedm, we call it 'bicycling' as the wire middle travels behind the ends, and takes a different path ( like the 2 wheels of a bike when you turn a corner... look at the wheel tracks after going thru a puddle ;)
[15:52:34] <colin_> alex_joni, http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~mech498/498lecture3.pdf
[15:52:54] <colin_> theres a file that lists the D_H stuff on the puma arm quite well
[15:54:03] <colin_> helped me understand thing a bit better
[15:54:08] <colin_> could be usefull to others
[15:54:19] <alex_joni> skunkworks: ^
[15:54:29] <alex_joni> colin_: skunkworks is the next guy with a puma ;)
[15:55:38] <colin_> cool
[15:56:22] <colin_> looks like im going to have to add extra kine for the wrist on mine
[15:59:24] <colin_> well at least i will if i want 5axis machining
[15:59:54] <alex_joni> colin_: looks nice (that pdf)
[16:01:02] <colin_> need to work out how to alter the offset in the code
[16:01:09] <colin_> in the puma its th1 = atan2(hom.tran.y, hom.tran.x) - atan2(PUMA_D3, -sqrt(sumSq));
[16:01:29] <colin_> because the arm is offset to the right/left
[16:01:40] <colin_> but on the ABB arm its offset above
[16:02:08] <colin_> http://www.robotsltd.co.uk/images/ABBpics/IRB6400/ABBIRB6400M94Adimensions.jpg
[16:02:47] <alex_joni> whee: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/05/25/superspeed_usb_3_guide/
[16:03:01] <colin_> also looks like the arm isnt on the center line one the base rotation either
[16:04:18] <alex_joni> wow: http://www.fpdimages.com/html/StoreOpenSystemsBanner.htm
[16:12:13] <Jymmm> alex_joni: eh
[17:04:06] <BigJohnT> http://imagebin.ca/view/5YSHwT5v.html
[17:04:21] <BigJohnT> http://pastebin.ca/1434080
[17:04:27] <BigJohnT> :)
[17:45:01] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: at least go for a full circle ;)
[18:06:02] <cradek> hey, arcs even
[18:11:57] <tom3p> re: that banner... "self confessed, hardcore Unix fan" i dont recognize any of the tool chain as unix (adobe illustrator, corel draw, roland versaworks )
[18:12:56] <tom3p> peeple are becoming more os interoperative
[18:15:37] <tom3p> haha usb3 uses encoder cabling
[18:18:02] <alex_joni> tom3p: at least it'll be easy for encoder manufacturers :P
[18:18:11] <alex_joni> just use USB3 connectors ;)
[18:18:40] <alex_joni> although the unshielded for index might be a problem :)
[18:18:51] <tom3p> with the latency of systems we've seen, can we feed it fast enuf to use it?
[18:19:21] <alex_joni> I meant only use the cable :)
[18:19:30] <alex_joni> I don't know any usb3 specific timings
[18:19:50] <alex_joni> but by the time there will be usb3-rt drivers we'll be pretty old I guess
[18:20:35] <tom3p> hah already there!
[18:21:28] <alex_joni> skunkworks: around?
[18:45:36] <BigJohnT> run this one http://pastebin.ca/1434174
[18:46:05] <BigJohnT> http://imagebin.ca/view/FGZvHnW.html
[18:46:22] <BigJohnT> cradek: this is really neat! this makes it too easy...
[18:50:27] <Roguish> ok, simple one again. where do I find the debug messages??
[18:55:26] <alex_joni> Roguish: terminal
[18:56:06] <tom3p> BigJohnT: some old forms of gcode were 'tabbed', you had to write in columns ( throwback from punch cards ) very easy to read
[19:01:45] <Roguish> alex_joni: thanks. i was running from a launcher. changed to a plain terminal...
[19:17:20] <BigJohnT_> BigJohnT_ is now known as BigJohnT
[19:51:56] <BigJohnT> what would be the ideal ppr for an encoder on the spindle for threading with a 5i20?
[19:53:33] <BigJohnT> I can get 100, 360, 500, 1000, 1024, 2500 ppr all for the same price
[19:54:33] <jepler> I'd look at the max RPM and get the highest resolution one that runs at the RPMs you desire
[19:55:27] <jepler> "minimum value of
[19:55:27] <jepler> (3600000/CPR)
[19:55:28] <jepler> and (60000)"
[19:55:35] <jepler> for this random usdigital family of encoders
[19:56:22] <jepler> so if you want to thread at 3000rpm then you need <1200 cpr in that family
[19:56:27] <Jymmm> I tik jmkasunich said that 2500 was too low for some applications,
[19:56:48] <jepler> (in other words, maybe it's not much of an issue)
[19:57:27] <BigJohnT> the max speed is the same for all of them @ 6k rpm
[19:57:29] <Jymmm> BigJohnT: you want the higest resoltion you can get, you can always use less of it if needed I believe
[19:59:08] <Jymmm> BigJohnT: If an encoer is rated at 2500, but you only need 0-500, you could just use a ratio of 5:1
[19:59:49] <Jymmm> but if it's rted at 100, you're screwed =)
[20:00:00] <jepler> 3000RPM * 2500ppr = 125kHz which is well below the mesa single-ended encoder rate according to the 7i33 manual (maximum count rate page 7
[20:00:03] <jepler> )
[20:00:10] <jepler> so I don't see any reason so far to not get the 2500ppr encoder
[20:00:17] <BigJohnT> thanks
[20:01:42] <jepler> if you're using a different interface daughtercard, then the figure might be different (much different for the 7i37 isolated I/O card for instance)
[20:02:55] <BigJohnT> so for the 5i20 I would want the 5vdc line driver differential one?
[20:04:43] <jepler> I'm not aware of a downside to the differential inputs
[20:09:46] <BigJohnT> http://web2.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Sensors_-z-_Encoders/Encoders/Light_Duty_Standard_Shaft_(TRD-S_Series)/TRD-S2500-VD
[20:10:19] <BigJohnT> dang internet is slow today
[21:01:27] <Jymmm> BigJohnT: dialup ?
[21:02:27] <Jymmm> What color does the one on the right look like? http://c-leds.com/pics/8mm_white_warm_white_combo.jpg
[21:05:39] <gtom> still have hostmot2 stepgen probs
[21:06:46] <BigJohnT> Jymmm: yup
[21:06:52] <gtom> hi
[21:06:58] <BigJohnT> hi gtom
[21:07:13] <gtom> some infos from seb?
[21:07:55] <BigJohnT> not yet, he was here a while a go for just a bit
[21:08:22] <BigJohnT> I sent him an e mail about the homing issue with hm2
[21:08:49] <gtom> i took a look at the source, found nothing...
[21:09:20] <gtom> works fine with home switches
[21:09:29] <BigJohnT> alex_joni: thought it might be that hm2 was not resetting from an index properly
[21:09:59] <BigJohnT> are you just using the index without home switches for homing?
[21:10:10] <gtom> well, i think its a positioning prob
[21:10:26] <gtom> did both setups, with, without
[21:10:39] <gtom> same problem
[21:11:06] <gtom> also homing with switches ist a bit strange...
[21:11:09] <BigJohnT> after the index it goes at warp 12 to the 0 position?
[21:11:19] <gtom> yes
[21:11:28] <BigJohnT> even with home final vel set
[21:11:35] <gtom> yes!
[21:11:54] <gtom> same setup with parport stepgen works!
[21:12:06] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT wishes seb or peter was around
[21:12:14] <gtom> spend 3hrs changing params
[21:12:26] <BigJohnT> I know the feeling
[21:12:57] <gtom> i can google some stuff but in this case...
[21:13:15] <BigJohnT> sometimes the developers don't know about a problem until someone with the hardware tries it out
[21:13:48] <gtom> if a had a better documentation i would spend all my time to find out...
[21:14:38] <BigJohnT> you can help with the documentation if you want :)
[21:15:08] <BigJohnT> sometimes the docs lag behind the software...
[21:15:19] <BigJohnT> gtom: are you using a 5i20?
[21:15:35] <gtom> Yes, 5i20
[21:15:46] <BigJohnT> me too
[21:16:01] <BigJohnT> I'm getting ready to install it in my plasma cutter
[21:16:11] <BigJohnT> what does your machine do?
[21:16:24] <gtom> i use em with linear encoders, just a Maho-Size mill
[21:16:52] <gtom> building 2-Cycle cylinders
[21:17:29] <BigJohnT> for airplanes?
[21:17:40] <gtom> no, for jetskis,boats
[21:17:47] <BigJohnT> ok, cool
[21:18:04] <NZGav> Anyone willing to give me a hand diagnosing a missing steps problem - G540
[21:18:42] <BigJohnT> gtom: as soon as I hear something from Seb I'll let you know
[21:18:54] <gtom> ok, thanks
[21:19:14] <BigJohnT> in the mean time I'll set up here too as soon as my cable arrives for my stepper
[21:19:26] <BigJohnT> ask away NZGav
[21:20:25] <NZGav> setup is: Dell D3000 pc, 3-axis router, Gecko G540. Positioning error in y-axis only. Sometimes it's better than others. I'm going to post to links, 1 is almost right, the other is terrible
[21:20:37] <NZGav> Almost right: http://imagebin.ca/view/rd1JxUw.html
[21:20:47] <NZGav> terrible: http://imagebin.ca/view/o0WCyOmO.html
[21:21:36] <NZGav> I was using EMC 2.8, now using 2.3.1 (because 2.3.1 has a setup config for G540. 2.8's generic Gecko setup seemed to be a lot better but still same problem
[21:22:01] <NZGav> Sorry I meant I was using EMC 2.2
[21:22:06] <BigJohnT> do you have any physical binding on the Y axis
[21:22:21] <BigJohnT> or more load from a gantry
[21:22:42] <NZGav> Nope, I have checked and rechecked and rerechecked y-axis and it is smooth. The y-axis is heavier though.
[21:23:04] <BigJohnT> then your acceleration might be too high for the load
[21:23:17] <NZGav> Funny thing is, the "terrible photo" was running 1/4 of the feedrate of the "almost right" image
[21:23:38] <NZGav> So when I slowed program down, it got worse
[21:24:31] <BigJohnT> does the 540 have a low speed pot like the 203v?
[21:25:07] <NZGav> Pass... It has trimpots marked "tuning" next to each plug for each axis
[21:25:28] <NZGav> or actually I think they're marked "trim"
[21:25:40] <BigJohnT> did you set them while running at the speed recommended?
[21:25:59] <BigJohnT> some good info here http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//common_Stepper_Diagnostics.html#r1_1_3
[21:26:28] <NZGav> No I don't know what I'm looking for, will the sound of the motors change if I adjust this, or the speed or?
[21:27:18] <NZGav> Ah thanks, I haven't found that page in my searching yet, I'll read through that
[21:27:51] <BigJohnT> yes you run them at 1/2 rev per second and adjust till smooth
[21:28:32] <NZGav> Awesome, good info, thanks BigJohnT
[21:28:50] <BigJohnT> np, been there before glad to pass it along
[21:29:26] <NZGav> So would you say the trim is the first thing to try and then start playing with adjusting ferror, minferror etc?
[21:30:02] <BigJohnT> trim first then acceleration not ferror and minferror
[21:30:28] <BigJohnT> once your trim is set try the test in the link
[21:30:59] <NZGav> The 200 times repeat back and forth test and then measure link? Thanks, I'll do that
[21:31:28] <BigJohnT> yea, if your voltage is lower than max you can't get the acceleration
[21:31:37] <BigJohnT> then you might loose steps
[21:32:02] <NZGav> Is there a rule of thumb ratio of acceleration to max velocity?
[21:32:24] <BigJohnT> no it depends on the power of the stepper and the mass
[21:32:50] <BigJohnT> in other words how fast the stepper can accelerate the mass
[21:32:57] <BigJohnT> without loosing steps
[21:33:11] <BigJohnT> the more mass the more power needed
[21:34:38] <NZGav> So if the trim is adjusted correctly, I should be able to run it with low acceleration and velocity and get accuracy?
[21:35:36] <BigJohnT> yep
[21:35:48] <NZGav> I'm going to go and try what you have suggested and come back (hopefully before you are asleep) to let you know what happened
[21:35:54] <NZGav> Thanks heaps for your help
[21:36:03] <BigJohnT> keep in mind that about path following
[21:36:09] <BigJohnT> wait one sec
[21:36:48] <BigJohnT> read this one too http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//common_User_Concepts.html
[21:37:10] <BigJohnT> ok it is 4:36 pm here so I'm good for a while
[21:37:18] <NZGav> Path following as in if you go too fast it puts big radii on the corners?
[21:37:38] <BigJohnT> depends on what you tell it to do in the g code
[21:37:43] <NZGav> I'll try and get it done quick
[21:38:13] <BigJohnT> ok
[21:53:37] <seb_> seb_ is now known as sebjames
[21:54:12] <BigJohnT> seb?
[21:58:38] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT wanders upstairs for a bit
[22:07:22] <Roguish> is index homing working in hostmod2 ??
[22:27:40] <NZGav> Still there BigJohnT
[22:27:41] <NZGav> ?
[22:34:48] <NZGav> If you come back, I adjusted the trim. It was not far off. Ran the test and it stopped in exactly the right place. Interesting thing was that while it was running the second half of the test (with no pauses) it was reversing direction about 1/4" before it was supposed to on both ends, but when it got to the end of the program it stopped in the right place. I presume this is because it can't come to an exact stop when there is not a pause at
[22:42:48] <NZGav> Time here is 10.42am (New Zealand Time Zone). I will be back up here in 15mins to see if you are back.
[22:49:12] <BigJohnT> I'm in and out NZGav
[22:51:41] <BigJohnT> to program it to be in exact stop mode you use G61 http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//gcode_main.html#sub:G61,-G61.1,-G64:
[22:54:25] <NZGav> Thanks for your help. I'm going to try the program in G64 with a path following tolerance and see what happens.
[23:11:38] <BigJohnT> ok I'm going to shut down now and do some shrimp on the barbie
[23:12:00] <BigJohnT> talk to you later
[23:12:01] <toastydeath> does somebody have a good resource online explaining complex powers
[23:12:24] <BigJohnT> or pop by the forum and leave a post there