#emc | Logs for 2009-04-05

[00:02:43] <SWPadnos> you could jsut ask. if people know the answer, they'll probably answer
[00:02:50] <SWPadnos> but we can't until we know the question
[00:04:51] <cradek> people sometimes abbreviate "Don't ask to ask, just ask" as "DATAJA"
[00:05:20] <shayter> Cool -- thanks.
[00:06:16] <shayter> I'm swapping motors on my z-axis -- I'm putting a 300oz/in torque motor in place, but I'm getting far less torque than I get with my other cheapie steppers.
[00:07:09] <shayter> I'm very confused, 'cuz the procedure I used to tune the 90oz/in motors isn't having the same effect on the bigger ones.
[00:07:34] <shayter> Any thoughts re: how to get more torque?
[00:07:45] <SWPadnos> are you using the same driver?
[00:07:48] <cradek> if your drives are underpowered, it seems like big motors might work worse than smaller motors
[00:07:49] <shayter> FWIW, it's generating about 40oz/in
[00:08:12] <cradek> tell us about the drives and motors
[00:08:12] <shayter> driver is rated 24-32V@5A
[00:08:24] <SWPadnos> ok, and the motors?
[00:08:27] <SWPadnos> (both types)
[00:09:01] <shayter> Drive is a non-standard drive. Got it from a vendor on eBay (MDFly). Saw a posting saying it wouldn't work w/EMC, but I got it running just fine last weekend. I have docs if needed.
[00:09:46] <shayter> Motors are Lin Eng, NEMA 23, 284oz/in 3.15V @ ... 3.8A? 'sec, I'll get the spec sheet.
[00:10:00] <shayter> The original motors are 0.7A@30V
[00:10:08] <shayter> 1.8 degree, yada yada...
[00:10:33] <SWPadnos> so the originals are 90 oz-in at 0.7A?
[00:11:26] <shayter> Max, if memory serves. I'll need to actually locate the spec sheet -- they came from a surplus place a year ago -- I remember at the time that they matched the driver and power supply nicely.
[00:12:02] <shayter> http://www.alltronics.com/mas_assets/acrobat/28M003.pdf 5718L-01P
[00:12:15] <SWPadnos> well, if you rake 90 oz-in / 0.7A, you get about 128.6 oz-in/amp
[00:12:21] <SWPadnos> s/rake/take/
[00:12:21] <shayter> 2.8A/phase, 294oz/in, 2.08N-m
[00:12:53] <SWPadnos> divide 284 oz-in / 2.8 A and you get 105 oz-in/A
[00:13:08] <SWPadnos> so given the same torque setting, you'll get lower torque from the larger motor
[00:13:12] <SWPadnos> err, same current setting
[00:13:34] <SWPadnos> what voltage is your power supply?
[00:13:59] <SWPadnos> also, how do you measure torque?
[00:14:06] <shayter> Ahh -- didn't realize how the calculation was done (haven't found anything specfic in the docs).
[00:14:10] <shayter> You'll laugh.
[00:14:20] <SWPadnos> for servos, it's called the torque coinstant
[00:14:21] <SWPadnos> -i
[00:14:42] <shayter> I have a torque screwdriver -- I kept dialing in 'til the motor stalls.
[00:14:47] <SWPadnos> ok
[00:14:52] <SWPadnos> that may be close enough :)
[00:14:54] <shayter> So, it's approximate
[00:15:31] <shayter> So, if you look at that spec sheet, the 5718L-01S is better suited?
[00:15:45] <SWPadnos> oh, no idea - I'm not looking at the spec sheet :)
[00:15:53] <shayter> Or even the 5718M-04S ?
[00:15:59] <shayter> heh
[00:17:02] <shayter> Well -- that blows.
[00:17:16] <shayter> Ok -- latency errors/video drivers....
[00:17:23] <SWPadnos> so, what voltage are you running?
[00:17:28] <shayter> Oh -
[00:17:29] <shayter> 24V
[00:17:35] <SWPadnos> ok
[00:17:58] <SWPadnos> well, you should be able to crank up the driver output quite a bit
[00:18:11] <SWPadnos> current output that is
[00:18:21] <SWPadnos> the new motors take 4x the current
[00:18:59] <shayter> That's what I *think* this problem is... But I'm not sure how to go about it. I've been adjusting a couple of settings in stepconf (the XYZ axis menus) but I'm not seeing the increase in torque I'd expect.
[00:19:17] <SWPadnos> nothing you can do on the PC will change the current setting on the driver board
[00:19:17] <shayter> For example -- and lemme explain what I did to actually get the small motors running....
[00:19:30] <SWPadnos> that should be a pot or a resistor
[00:19:37] <shayter> ('sec -- launching step-conf)
[00:19:57] <SWPadnos> should I say that again?
[00:20:01] <shayter> Nope..
[00:20:04] <SWPadnos> ok :)
[00:20:34] <shayter> There's only a dip switch.
[00:20:40] <shayter> "Half Current" and "Auto"
[00:21:09] <SWPadnos> that's likely for some sort of auto-current-reduction mode
[00:21:25] <SWPadnos> ie, after some time with no steps, it will reduce the current to reduce motor heating
[00:21:35] <shayter> Am I right in assuming that the steppers are driven using PWM? If so, woudl the step time and step space have *any* bearing, or none whatsoever?
[00:21:41] <shayter> Ahh.
[00:22:01] <shayter> Microstepping...
[00:22:02] <SWPadnos> I'm not familiar with that particular driver, there are PWM (chopper) and non-PWM drives
[00:22:17] <SWPadnos> well, microstepping would be another setting
[00:22:20] <shayter> that's how I got the other motors to work
[00:22:53] <shayter> I dropped microstepping (increments) to 0.05 -- only then was I able to get solid performance without stalling
[00:24:03] <shayter> But, when I approached it in the same manner with these bigger motors, it just basically stalls out... ie: it'll run with no load with a setting of 1, but if I lower it to 0.05 it won't step at all. The sweet spot seems to be 0.9
[00:24:55] <shayter> But, even then, I can stop it with no effort by pinching the shaft between my thumb and forefinger.
[00:25:14] <shayter> (I'm checking the board's manual for a current adjustment right now)
[00:25:42] <SWPadnos> which model do you have?
[00:26:04] <shayter> The driver?
[00:26:07] <SWPadnos> yeah
[00:26:12] <SWPadnos> they seem to sell several
[00:26:23] <shayter> MD3AXIS8435
[00:26:25] <SWPadnos> nonw of which say 5A (5.6, 4.2, 2.5 ...)
[00:26:27] <SWPadnos> ok
[00:26:34] <shayter> You want the manual?
[00:26:50] <SWPadnos> no, I see it
[00:26:55] <SWPadnos> it's a 2.5A driver
[00:26:58] <SWPadnos> not 5A
[00:27:05] <shayter> Right. Didn't I say 2.8??
[00:27:22] <shayter> Oh -- nope. 5A
[00:27:24] <shayter> Sorry.
[00:27:30] <SWPadnos> you said the drive was 24-32V @ 5A
[00:27:33] <shayter> That's the power supply... 24V@5.8A
[00:27:41] <SWPadnos> ok
[00:28:03] <shayter> I suppose I could put smaller power resistors in there...
[00:28:24] <SWPadnos> err, what?
[00:29:09] <SWPadnos> ok, I think that board will suck with those motors no matter what you do
[00:29:26] <SWPadnos> first, it's 2.5A peak, sniusoidal output
[00:29:47] <SWPadnos> it's only 1.5A average
[00:29:47] <BMG> I agree with SWP - I have 200 oz-in motors with a 3 amp drive
[00:30:21] <shayter> So .. basically .. get a Gecko?
[00:30:29] <SWPadnos> a gecko would work nicely
[00:30:52] <SWPadnos> the G250/251 or the G540 would be great, if you want it simple :)
[00:30:57] <shayter> Been unemployed for months, but start a new job next week -- maybe I owe myself a present.. ;-)
[00:31:11] <shayter> What's the one that's the bare board?
[00:31:25] <shayter> $70ea, or something--is that the 250?
[00:31:40] <SWPadnos> G250 and 251 are just boards, one has scerw terminals and the other a pin header
[00:31:58] <shayter> yeah -- I'd probably go that route...
[00:32:01] <SWPadnos> the G540 has 4 drivers, some isolated I/O, a charge pump, and is $300 maybe?
[00:32:08] <shayter> $399, I think.
[00:32:14] <SWPadnos> oh, could be
[00:32:32] <shayter> So, basically, you figure that I'm up a creek at this point?
[00:32:46] <SWPadnos> well, you son't get very good performance
[00:32:55] <SWPadnos> if you do have series resistors, get rid of them
[00:32:55] <shayter> Slow doesn't bother me.
[00:33:04] <BMG> if your pinched for coin, the hobbycnc kit (you assemble ) is under $100
[00:33:05] <SWPadnos> these motors can handle anything the drive can put out
[00:33:22] <shayter> URL?
[00:33:31] <BMG> hobbycnc.com
[00:33:36] <shayter> Oh. Duh
[00:33:38] <SWPadnos> google for hobbycnc ;)
[00:33:38] <shayter> heh
[00:34:12] <BMG> there are some issues with the idle current circuit - but can be modded to allow EMC to manage it
[00:34:13] <shayter> Wait -- $64? Serious?
[00:34:31] <BMG> its 4 axis - work upto 325oz-in motors
[00:34:44] <BMG> I use it
[00:34:57] <BMG> price was right for me when I did mine
[00:35:26] <shayter> What about the pro? $15 more and seems to have the idle problem dealt with.
[00:35:42] <BMG> pro has the idle circuit - the EZ does not
[00:36:22] <BMG> I would get the pro and the idle circuit mod is posted on CNCzone.com - I think I put the link on the hardware page in the emc wiki for that driver
[00:37:07] <shayter> Almost makes me wonder if the drivers are pin-for-pin compatible. I'd try swapping the chips first.
[00:37:12] <BMG> EMC is precise - it sends commands faster than the Idle circuit can wake up
[00:37:30] <shayter> Although I guess that may introduce timing issues.
[00:37:38] <BMG> the boards are slightly different
[00:37:41] <shayter> SWP -- series resistors?
[00:38:05] <BMG> Not sure - weak on electronics
[00:38:18] <SWPadnos> [20:29:05]<shayter>I suppose I could put smaller power resistors in there...
[00:38:31] <BMG> if your pinched on cash - its a great option - otherwise head for the geckos
[00:38:37] <shayter> I mean the driver chips vs the Toshiba chips currently in mine.
[00:39:00] <SWPadnos> you don't want idle current reduction on the motors
[00:39:21] <shayter> Ahh -- well there's a pair of power resistors on each of the XYZ axis. A doesn't have -- doesn't need, I'm assuming.
[00:39:29] <SWPadnos> unless they provide full torque (which I think you can with only 0.707*normal current)
[00:39:38] <SWPadnos> no idea
[00:39:46] <SWPadnos> those could be current sense
[00:39:54] <BMG> SWP - I like it now that I "fixed" the board - I often walk away from the gantry and come back and the motors are stone cold
[00:39:55] <shayter> I don't have a schemo -- just experience/intuition...
[00:40:07] <shayter> Gotta be current limiting resistors, the 5W jobs.
[00:40:38] <SWPadnos> well, I dunno. I briefly looked at the datasheet for the driver chip, and there's a current sense input (pin 10 I think it was)
[00:40:50] <shayter> Anyhow -- I'll mess w/it. I know the Gecko is the hobbyists Cadillac..
[00:40:52] <SWPadnos> you don't use current limiting resistors for a chopper drive
[00:41:17] <shayter> Maybe this is a ... oh -- might be part of a damping setup...
[00:41:30] <shayter> Who knows -- I'm not gonna reverse engineer it...
[00:41:39] <shayter> I'll have to think about for a bit.
[00:41:54] <shayter> I have a link to a photo of it, if you wanna see what I'm talking about.
[00:41:57] <SWPadnos> yeah, who knows what they did
[00:42:00] <jmkasunich> current limiting resistors and current sense resistors are totally different things
[00:42:04] <SWPadnos> I saw the board on an ebay listing
[00:42:09] <shayter> 'k
[00:42:19] <shayter> So -- the performance/latency question I ad.
[00:42:20] <shayter> had
[00:42:25] <SWPadnos> shoot
[00:42:51] <shayter> I was conf'd for 800x600 w/an NVidia card running w/VESA drivers.
[00:43:15] <SWPadnos> the G540 is $299 (just looked it up :) )
[00:43:35] <SWPadnos> http://geckodrive.com/product.aspx?i=14469
[00:43:38] <shayter> Never had a problem, but I got sick of slow screen refresh, and figured I'd let the card do all the work instead of making the CPU break a sweat.
[00:43:44] <shayter> cool -- thx
[00:43:46] <SWPadnos> bzzzzt!
[00:44:05] <shayter> So, I downloaded and compiled the .. go on ...
[00:44:17] <SWPadnos> for most people, the proprietary nVidia drivers (or ATI or whichever) give much worse realtime latency
[00:44:27] <shayter> Yeah, I discovered that.
[00:44:29] <shayter> SO
[00:44:33] <SWPadnos> heh :)
[00:44:48] <shayter> I rolled back to VESA, and managed to get the thing to run in 1024x768 mode.
[00:45:00] <shayter> But when I do, EMC won't launch. Fatal error, etc, etc.
[00:45:04] <shayter> Thoughts?
[00:45:12] <cradek> I think ... you should say what the error is
[00:45:17] <jmkasunich> error message?
[00:45:33] <shayter> Gimme a second -- I need to swap xorg.conf files and reboot the box...
[00:45:48] <jmkasunich> rule #1: when something isn't working, run EMC from a shell so you can see all the output
[00:45:58] <cradek> probably the nvidia driver porked up your GL libraries
[00:46:01] <SWPadnos> nvidia installs bork Mesa openGL in such a way that it's nearly impossible to recover
[00:46:10] <jmkasunich> rule #2: if you ask questions, make sure everyone else can see the all the output (pastebin, etc)
[00:46:14] <cradek> does it bork it or pork it?
[00:46:38] <shayter> Mmmmm... pork...
[00:46:58] <shayter> box is rebooting
[00:48:01] <jmkasunich> amazing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5aC5Kpvibc&feature=related
[00:48:02] <shayter> jmka: Yeah -- I'm a sys admin, I normally do -- I just didn't wanna mess w/it at the time (I'd just gotten both X & Y axis running properly, so rolled back to something that "worked")
[00:48:07] <SWPadnos> I'm more of a swedish chef type I think, so I think it's borked
[00:48:11] <SWPadnos> borked borked borked
[00:48:21] <shayter> * shayter ducks the flying frying pans
[00:49:18] <shayter> Ugh -- there's a who kernel dump...
[00:50:00] <shayter> I see a TCL error: X server has no OpenGL GLX extension...
[00:50:06] <shayter> * shayter scratches his head
[00:50:17] <jmkasunich> do "sudo dmesg -c" before running EMC to avoid all the crap from boot being in your dmesg
[00:50:19] <shayter> I've screwed something in the xorg.conf
[00:50:32] <shayter> It's gotta be that.
[00:51:07] <shayter> Lemme launch from the CLI and see what gives... I probably didn't need to bring this up -- it's an X issue, not EMC (I think)
[00:51:27] <cradek> yep, GL libraries are porked up by the nvidia crapo
[00:51:33] <cradek> right, X issue
[00:52:05] <shayter> frak
[00:52:16] <cradek> if someone figures out how to unscrew this problem, it would be nice to put instructions on the wiki
[00:52:23] <SWPadnos> did you install the nvidia restricted drivers Ubuntu package, or from the nvidia site?
[00:52:33] <shayter> yes
[00:52:37] <SWPadnos> both?
[00:52:38] <shayter> ;-)
[00:52:41] <SWPadnos> bummer
[00:52:56] <SWPadnos> well, I have a suggestion which may not work
[00:53:03] <shayter> I installed the restricted, but in order to get 'em to work, I had to switch from the RTAI
[00:53:21] <SWPadnos> and it's probably a lot harder than backing up your data and reinstalling :)
[00:53:38] <BMG> Anyone know how to fix the none functional flash video? I already ran through all of firefox's recommended fixes (mplayer, libraries, preference settings etc...) with no change - THat last link JMK put up just has white space where the video should be.
[00:53:40] <shayter> But, EMC wasn't happy 'bout that, so I rolled back, switched kernels, and then d/l'd the source driver and compiled.
[00:53:56] <shayter> Shoot
[00:53:58] <cradek> shayter: ouch
[00:54:16] <shayter> Delete the plugin and reinstall it.
[00:54:34] <SWPadnos> but if you'd like to try, then the idea is to purge anything that says nvidia, and maybe even mesa-openGL (which would remove a lot of stuff), and then install the vesa/mesa drivers again, pus EMC2 and whatever else is missing
[00:54:53] <SWPadnos> that could possibly get rid of enough stuff that the new install would put in the correct files
[00:55:02] <BMG> SHayter - tried that - no luck - will try again though
[00:55:29] <SWPadnos> IIRC, the problem is that nvidia replaces some openGL files with their own versions (like libGL.so.1 or something)
[00:55:38] <shayter> Ack
[00:56:01] <shayter> so .. theoretically, I should just be able to force a reinstall of those libs?
[00:56:07] <SWPadnos> like I said, a USB stick and reinstall are probably easier
[00:56:18] <SWPadnos> well, maybe, in theory
[00:56:34] <SWPadnos> but that hasn't worked wright either, if I'm remembering things right
[00:56:37] <SWPadnos> -w
[00:57:03] <shayter> How well does yum work under Ubuntu?
[00:57:08] <shayter> Same as Fedora?
[00:57:11] <SWPadnos> does it work at all?
[00:57:17] <SWPadnos> ubuntu uses apt, not rpm
[00:57:56] <shayter> yeah, I know -- I just spend most of my life in the Redhat fork....
[00:58:23] <jmkasunich> watch out for flying chips: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnEZuvgiYoU&NR=1
[00:58:29] <shayter> Well -- it doesn't work very well (in case you were curious)
[01:01:36] <shayter> ugh -- I remember now why I don't like apt. ;-)
[01:02:30] <SWPadnos> has nothing to do with apt, I think
[01:02:50] <SWPadnos> except maybe that nvidia provides redhat RPMs and not Ubuntu debs :)
[01:02:55] <jepler> funny, I spent many years on redhat but really like apt/deb once I finally tried it
[01:03:28] <shayter> yum list *vesa* | grep installed shows just what you think it would. doesn't seem to be a way to do that w/apt.
[01:03:43] <SWPadnos> dpkg -l "*vesa*"
[01:04:21] <SWPadnos> or dpkg -l vesa " grep -e "^ii" (or similar)
[01:04:42] <SWPadnos> but if you installed from nvidia source, the package list won't really matter much
[01:05:08] <shayter> Ugh -- there's STILL a crapload of nvidia stuff installed.
[01:05:10] <shayter> Ya know...
[01:05:19] <SWPadnos> got a memory stick? ;)
[01:05:22] <shayter> * shayter copies his configs and NC files to the network
[01:08:32] <shayter> *grumble*
[01:09:02] <shayter> I really wish my spare monitor hadn't flaked...
[01:09:31] <shayter> Thanks for the help...
[01:09:35] <shayter> I'm bummed about the motors...
[01:09:59] <shayter> I really wanted XY&Z working flawlessly this weekend.
[01:11:00] <shayter> SWP: you think a Gecko w/these motors is the way to go, eh?
[01:11:08] <SWPadnos> check for a current limit setting on that driver
[01:11:23] <shayter> Will do -- 99% certain there isn't one.
[01:11:28] <SWPadnos> you would have gotten the small motors very warm if you were driving1.5A through them
[01:11:44] <shayter> They get hot to the touch alright.
[01:11:47] <SWPadnos> I know a gecko will run them (assuming they're bipolar)
[01:11:55] <shayter> Yep
[01:12:02] <SWPadnos> well, hot to the touch is OK (for larger ones at least), sizzling hot isn't ;)
[01:12:18] <shayter> The bigger motors don't even warm up.
[01:12:37] <SWPadnos> no, you can't run them past half current with that driver
[01:12:42] <shayter> Matter of fact, the drivers themselves don't even get warm to the touch -- not even w/the big motors on the line
[01:13:03] <SWPadnos> so you'll never get more than 1.5* 105 = 157.5 oz-in with that driver
[01:13:10] <SWPadnos> (the 105 from the previous calculation)
[01:13:39] <shayter> So it's better to upgrade, otherwise I'm just wasting these babies potential
[01:13:48] <SWPadnos> it seems that way to me
[01:14:21] <SWPadnos> there may be some way of getting your driver to work, but I don't know how, and I don't think I'd waste^Wspend the time finding out
[01:14:27] <shayter> Cool. My b-day is next weekend. Maybe the missus will treat me. ;-)
[01:14:35] <SWPadnos> $299 :)
[01:14:39] <shayter> heh
[01:14:41] <SWPadnos> less than an xbox ;)
[01:14:48] <shayter> heheh
[01:14:52] <shayter> And hours more fun!
[01:15:01] <SWPadnos> at least
[01:48:45] <JohnAsh> does anyone know if there are integrators around michigan - and how they can be reached?
[01:49:31] <SWPadnos> Ray Henry is in the UP
[01:49:58] <JohnAsh> does he do alot of retrofits up there?
[01:50:13] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure what he's doing these days
[01:50:30] <SWPadnos> he may know better who's around though
[01:50:59] <JohnAsh> does he have a website or something - or e-mail address?
[01:52:12] <SWPadnos> his email is all over the emc mailing lists
[01:58:02] <tomp> uff da!
[02:17:14] <Valen> anybody using brushless servo motors?
[02:39:06] <JymmmEMC> LOVE! PEACE! TACO GREASE!!
[02:41:40] <SWPadnos> ARE YOU ON DRUGS?
[02:41:52] <SWPadnos> err, I mean, please pass the taco grease
[02:42:28] <JymmmEMC> TACO NAZI ---> SWPadnos NO TACOS FOR YOU! NEXT....
[02:42:47] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:43:42] <JymmmEMC> =)
[02:44:56] <shayter> SWP: I mighta fixed the library issues -- not sure. I got distracted, but I tried implicitly removing the mesa/vesa glx package. That flagged and removed a crapload of dependencies, which I installed manually following the deletion... The last message I saw was something about Network Manager -- box is off the network right now. ;-)
[02:45:11] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:45:24] <SWPadnos> yeah, you could remove X, but a heck of a lot depends on it ;)
[02:45:47] <DanielFalck1> use keystick right?
[02:45:47] <SWPadnos> Valen, not many are using brushless servos, they tend to be quiet expensive
[02:46:02] <shayter> didn't seem to matter ... 'course, a reboot post removal would be bad.
[02:46:13] <SWPadnos> the few I know of are using the standard +/- 10V control interface and encoders
[02:46:20] <Valen> I'm wondering really what the difference between a brushless servo and a stepper motor is when you get down to it ;->
[02:46:23] <SWPadnos> or synthesized encoder feedback actually (from the drive)
[02:46:29] <SWPadnos> design ;)
[02:46:56] <Valen> the design is pretty similar really, its more a question of speed
[02:47:15] <jmkasunich> pole count is the main difference in the motor
[02:47:21] <jmkasunich> the real difference is how they are controlled
[02:47:32] <shayter> Not entirely -- if these are anything like RC servos in the way they operate, you give a coordinate and it goes there
[02:47:43] <jmkasunich> steppers use constant current and constant flux, and the angle between rotor and stator flux varies with torque
[02:47:47] <shayter> A stepper needs to be pulsed a certain number of steps.
[02:47:50] <SWPadnos> shayter, no, they're usually not run that way
[02:47:56] <jmkasunich> servos maintain the angle at 90 degrees, and vary the flux to vary torque
[02:48:11] <shayter> Ahh.
[02:48:49] <Valen> an "ideal" stepper doesn't vary position with torque
[02:48:49] <shayter> It occurs to me that I could learn a fair amount just lurking here. ;-) Will I get idle kicked if I hang around...
[02:49:18] <Valen> and if they do microstepping the drive waveform looks rather similar to a brushless drive
[02:49:27] <Valen> just slower perhaps
[02:50:22] <jmkasunich> Valen: similar but different
[02:50:48] <jmkasunich> a servo drive controls the angle between rotor and stator flux, a stepper drive sets the stator angle and hopes the rotor follows
[02:52:14] <Valen> yeah i know the difference between closed and open loop controll
[02:52:24] <SWPadnos> shayter, no, I left this machine connected for the last week :)
[02:52:30] <SWPadnos> while I was on a trip
[02:52:39] <SWPadnos> Valen, that's not it
[02:53:18] <Valen> the point i was making however is if you put a scope on the wires into both motors while they were both running at 500Hz it would look pretty much the same
[02:53:41] <Valen> the stepper would probably be doing square wave drive and the brushless DC would be doing trapezoidal say but still
[02:53:52] <SWPadnos> or sinewave
[02:54:00] <jmkasunich> true (although the servo would be spinning damn fast, because the pole count is so different)
[02:54:26] <Valen> thats why i said 500Hz not 500 rpm ;->
[02:55:43] <Valen> what i was thinking was if one of mesa's anything I/O boards could be used to run a brushless servo system
[02:56:08] <Valen> you just need 3 half H bridges per drive channel but then stepper drives already have that
[02:56:42] <Valen> ergo other than RPM Vs Frequency and an encoder whats the difference?
[02:56:55] <Valen> stick an encoder on the stepper and drive it like a servo
[03:32:51] <pcw> valen: We've driven steppers as servos (our SoftDMC will do it), needs 30 KHz or so servo loop rate and a hi-res encoder
[03:32:53] <pcw> at reasonable power levels though step motors make pretty lousy servos, with more complicated drive electronics
[03:34:20] <pcw> (than 3 phase synchronous PM = AC servo)
[06:13:20] <shayter> When you're running latency-test, how much load is (realistically) too much load?
[06:15:56] <shayter> I've got 6 glxgears running, Firefox, Totem (streaming audio from shoutcast, with visualizations), and I'm VNC'd into the box from upstairs (ultimately it'll be headless anyway, so I wanted to test). Before launching Totem, I had a peak jitter of 11983 -- now the peak is 49061
[06:16:37] <shayter> And the test has been running about 40 minutes (give or take)
[06:27:06] <JymmmEMC> let it run overnight
[08:52:14] <tomp> damn! this Z has a 4mm pitch, that explains some of the lost motion . i need some better tools, like a dti and some gages. 40mm of it looks like 10 turns, maybe its weird Imperial pitch
[10:18:18] <pjm_> morning
[12:31:28] <BigJohnT> what software are you guys using to layout pcb's?
[12:32:57] <Valen> I use eagle
[12:33:45] <BigJohnT> I thought something like that was what I had heard...
[12:34:13] <Valen> eagle is a for pay software but they have a free version with limits that aren't too harsh
[12:34:26] <Valen> and its in apt w00t ;->
[12:35:53] <BigJohnT> I just want to make a couple of custom breakout boards so nothing complicated
[12:36:17] <Valen> eagle is probably your best bet, it has a bit of a learning curve but it has lots of parts
[12:36:30] <Valen> there is a PDF tutorial floating about, ~20 pages i think
[12:36:40] <BigJohnT> what is "apt w00t:->"?
[12:37:11] <Valen> apt as in in the ubuntu apt repositories, w00t as in huzza software be easy to install ;-> as in ;->
[12:37:40] <BigJohnT> ok :)
[12:54:46] <JymmmEMC> Mother Fsckers... GoDaddy just charged me $10 for processing a complaint that the WHOIS info on one of my domains is invalid (phone: 000-000-0000). Like email/snail isn't enough, have to get spammed via phone too. Make me want to get a 1-900 number and put it in there out of spite!
[12:55:22] <Valen> rofl
[12:55:25] <Valen> who complained?
[12:55:32] <Valen> ($10 it was godaddy)
[12:56:36] <JymmmEMC> No clue who complained, just that goDaddy's legal agreement says they can charge me $10 for processing the complaint.
[12:56:51] <JymmmEMC> I wouldn't be surprised.
[12:56:59] <BigJohnT> JymmmEMC: I got a little windburn from riding so long yesterday :)
[12:57:17] <JymmmEMC> =)
[13:05:44] <fenn> BigJohnT: kicad is very easy to draw schematics with
[13:05:52] <fenn> (compared to eagle at least)
[13:06:12] <BigJohnT> thanks fenn
[13:07:16] <fenn> also i have been playing with jukumagic.googlecode.com
[13:07:59] <BigJohnT> I'll check them both out thanks
[13:18:26] <Valen> kicad also does (or can do) 3d renders of the final product and is open source
[13:18:34] <Valen> (and un restricted)
[13:20:16] <BigJohnT> downloading it now :) thanks
[13:33:36] <jepler> kicad might be OK if you don't have years of using eagle behind me. When I start the kicad schematic editor, my blood boils instantly at stupid things like no apparent way to mouse pan, and the way the cursor keys move the mouse pointer around...
[13:34:35] <BigJohnT> kinda like being a power solidworks user and opening up qcad :)
[13:37:59] <justa> http://www.uniquedaily.com/laser-print-music/ a missing feature in EMC
[13:46:51] <jepler> Ow! I just reread what I said. forgive me for murdering the english language like that.
[13:48:28] <jepler> justa: not missing at all. daisy.ngc is a 4-part harmony for an XYZA stepper mill.
[13:48:34] <archivist> BigJohnT, hehe I like that comment Solidworks is damned good
[13:50:03] <justa> jepler: doh ^.^
[13:50:14] <jepler> hm, debian sid has a newer kicad than ubuntu intrepid (200808 vs 200711)
[13:50:25] <archivist> Americans have been murdering OUR language for a while :)
[13:50:47] <jepler> archivist: yeah, but I usually do a little better at pronoun agreement within a single sentence.
[13:51:32] <archivist> Melvyl Dewey loved to bork our spelling
[13:53:05] <cradek> it's suddletees like speling that throw us
[13:56:59] <archivist> I do like the unix/linux way of miss speeling
[14:00:44] <JymmmEMC> archivist: Yeah? Go make a web page red with your funky spelling!
[14:03:54] <archivist> re locations of emc people just seen an email on the wikipedia project and it seems http://www.openstreetmap.org/ is about ready for prime time we could use the data for our EMC user location thing
[14:14:08] <Optic> hehe
[14:14:11] <Optic> that's our engraver!
[14:14:27] <Optic> and it as done with gcode in emc
[14:14:41] <Optic> the bassline is the table/focus axis
[14:14:51] <BigJohnT> well the Eagle is up and running
[14:25:02] <jepler> hah cool
[14:26:31] <pjm_> afternoon
[14:27:41] <fenn> huh i was just looking at openstreetmap
[14:29:08] <archivist> seems a good toy fenn
[14:29:29] <archivist> I must add missing roads around here
[14:30:31] <archivist> I need to get the old GPS out as it has a serial out to record tracks
[14:30:33] <fenn> want to do augmented reality stuffs with it
[14:35:46] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT wonders what lib a 50pin connector header might be in eagle
[14:36:16] <jepler> con-lstb
[14:36:31] <jepler> er, maybe not -- that one only goes to 2x20
[14:38:01] <jepler> con-harting-ml
[14:38:28] <BigJohnT> can you do a search for a part number like HRP50H-ND?
[14:39:03] <BigJohnT> ML50, thanks
[14:41:31] <fenn> there should be a 'search by picture' function
[14:44:07] <skunkworks> search by brain waves
[14:45:17] <BigJohnT> I did something and headers showed up :)
[14:48:44] <fenn> you know.. that's not so far off
[14:49:07] <skunkworks> I heard mattel has some sort of game that uses brain waves to control.
[14:49:17] <skunkworks> Should be out this year
[14:49:38] <fenn> dunno if you've seen this http://www.pinktentacle.com/2008/12/scientists-extract-images-directly-from-brain/
[14:49:53] <BigJohnT> how do I get the list of parts back after a search?
[14:50:27] <archivist> normal thickos that buy games will be disappointed when they dont have the brain power to play
[14:51:17] <fenn> archivist: nah they will just buy brain pumps on ebay
[14:51:28] <fenn> or brain enlargement pills
[14:51:34] <archivist> hehe
[14:52:03] <skunkworks> BigJohnT: remove the search criteria?
[14:53:11] <BigJohnT> did that and nothing... right clicked on the add tool then left clicked and it's back
[14:54:28] <skunkworks> BigJohnT: eagle isn't very intuitive (at least for me) but once you figure out it's oddities - it works very well.
[14:54:49] <BigJohnT> ok now I'm looking for a 3.5mm spacing terminal block or 10 holes 3.5mm apart
[14:55:38] <BigJohnT> with a 1.2mm hole :)
[14:56:38] <skunkworks> http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/09/video-mattel-mind-flex-hands-and-heads-on/
[15:07:02] <Valen> that fmri = picture thing is freaky
[15:13:53] <archivist> * archivist stabs Garmin for not supporting Linux
[15:14:03] <Valen> in the eye?
[15:14:16] <fenn> can't you just get NMEA over rs232?
[15:14:37] <Valen> probably doesn't help if you want to do anything more than that
[15:14:42] <Valen> like upload new maps or something
[15:15:55] <archivist> my street pilot is USB
[15:16:20] <Valen> what you trying to do with it?
[15:16:44] <archivist> get tracks, my old GPS is ok and has RS232
[15:17:46] <Valen> odds are the GPS has a generic usb/serial in it
[15:18:05] <SWPadnos> the 1-second heartbeat should be generically usable
[15:18:06] <Valen> tail /var/syslog when you insert it and see if anything pops up
[15:18:58] <SWPadnos> if you have a Linux GPS program (mapping or whatever), it may be as simple as using /dev/ttyUSB0 instead of /dev/ttyS0
[15:20:09] <tomp> BigJohnT: if you're begiining eagle with a 50 pin connection, check the largest pcb you can make... it aint big and you just ate about 1/4 to 1/3 of the real estate. you can draw all you want but you cant output a very big pcb with the free version (75x100mm??? 3x4inch?? unsure )
[15:20:28] <Valen> about that
[15:21:44] <BigJohnT> tomp: these are idc connectors so they are only 2.75" long
[15:21:53] <BigJohnT> thanks for the heads up
[15:24:41] <tomp> 50 pin breakout... check awallin's breakouts maybe http://www.anderswallin.net/2006/08/optoisolator-cards-for-mesa-5i20-servocard/
[15:27:04] <tomp> re: gps & linux "Navit is a car navigation system with routing engine. As it is free software, it runs on Linux, it can use the maps from OpenStreetMap"
[15:27:19] <tomp> http://navit.sourceforge.net/
[15:27:21] <Valen> hmmm sounds interesting
[15:27:58] <SWPadnos> http://www.dash.net/
[15:28:09] <SWPadnos> why not just run Linux on the GPS itself? :)
[15:28:18] <BigJohnT> tomp: thanks for the link... I can hack his up for mine :)
[15:28:24] <SWPadnos> and of course: http://www.tomtom.com/
[15:28:57] <SWPadnos> BigJohnT, make sure to count up terminal costs before deciding if you should buy a 7i37T :)
[15:29:06] <SWPadnos> instead of building one
[15:29:42] <BigJohnT> 2.21 for the 10pos terminal block and 1.36 for the 50 pin header
[15:30:19] <BigJohnT> the 7i37TA is about $70 as I recall
[15:30:24] <SWPadnos> yep
[15:30:56] <BigJohnT> I just need a few wires connected from the A-F to the 5i20
[15:31:07] <SWPadnos> A-F?
[15:31:36] <BigJohnT> V-F not A-F LOL
[15:31:49] <SWPadnos> voltage to frequency converter?
[15:31:53] <SWPadnos> or a VFD?
[15:32:14] <BigJohnT> the mesa MI 94V
[15:32:20] <Valen> well nighty night peoples
[15:32:24] <BigJohnT> yes voltage to freq
[15:32:36] <SWPadnos> oh. never heard of it
[15:32:44] <tomp> are the gps in USA aware of your speed and teh speed limits? here the dang things are real backseat drivers, complaining about your speed and how close you are to other cars
[15:32:49] <BigJohnT> I have the only one in the world
[15:32:50] <tomp> Valen, g'nite
[15:34:08] <BigJohnT> my gps has a mute button :)
[15:34:27] <fenn> tomp: how do they know where the other cars are?
[15:35:21] <tomp> fenn: sorry, that feature's npt gps, the speed is gps, the close is some prox system
[15:36:19] <tomp> speed limits are looke dup in some database/link to whereIam
[15:37:11] <archivist> damn seems no NMEA in my Street Pilot i3
[15:38:26] <tomp> http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/nmea.htm
[15:39:14] <anonimasu> hm, you usually have to enable it with garmin gps:es
[15:39:42] <archivist> anonimasu, not in the manual or menus for this one
[15:40:03] <archivist> was a cheap car boot find
[15:40:14] <anonimasu> I see
[15:46:06] <pjm_> archivist btw, talking of car-boot cheapness, i found another VFD today
[15:46:24] <archivist> hehe good find
[15:46:28] <pjm_> and some mitsubishi PLC's - no idea what to do with them tho
[15:46:53] <pjm_> yeah the guy with the VFD twisted my arm to give him 2 quid for it
[15:47:13] <archivist> keep in "sfuff that comes in useful" store
[15:47:47] <pjm_> yeah i need to read up on the plc's to find out what i can actually use them for, hopefully something to integrate into my cnc
[15:50:59] <coden4life> pjm_: what kinda cnc do you have?
[16:00:29] <pjm_> coden4life its one i made myself, wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Pjm has some pictures
[16:00:59] <pjm_> i've spent this weekend putting all the electronics in a metal cabinet
[16:01:18] <archivist> time I boxed my wiring :)
[16:01:21] <pjm_> trying to cut out some of the noise the VFD spits out, quite staggering how back it is
[16:01:22] <pjm_> hahh
[16:01:29] <coden4life> that part is always a dread
[16:01:43] <archivist> rats nest rulz
[16:01:57] <pjm_> wiht the scope probe held 0.5" away from the wires to the braking resistor, you can see 0.5v p-p of crud
[16:06:06] <coden4life> nice work there pjm_: the reason I asked is you mentioned plc and I thought an ATC would be a nice addition to a machine
[16:07:41] <pjmcnc> thanks, ah i dunno what that is? these plc's i picked up are both mitsubishi, one is an fx1s-30mr-es/ul and the other is a fxo-30mr-es/ul
[16:08:06] <coden4life> o
[16:08:39] <coden4life> then you can program them and use you emc to make calls to them and such
[16:08:42] <pjmcnc> the guy i got it all off said it was from a pumping system, for monitor and control. there is a whole box of other crap, relays, switches, detectors, timers etc
[16:08:50] <coden4life> ATC automatic tool changer
[16:08:56] <pjmcnc> ahh
[16:09:01] <pjmcnc> i need one of them!
[16:09:16] <coden4life> sorry industry lingo
[16:09:31] <BigJohnT> pjmcnc: did you get a programming cable for the mits?
[16:09:31] <pjmcnc> the manual tool changer does get a bit tiresome
[16:09:43] <pjmcnc> BigJohnT, no just the units
[16:09:53] <BigJohnT> :(
[16:10:20] <coden4life> that is a bummer
[16:10:46] <BigJohnT> last time I looked at a mits for a job they wanted $150 for the program cable and I forget what for the software
[16:12:32] <pjm_> wow that is a lot!
[16:12:54] <pjm_> pjm.dyndns.org/cam/junk.jpg bottom right of this pic is the units
[16:12:58] <archivist> industrial stuff costs the earth
[16:13:44] <archivist> useful haul!
[16:13:50] <pjm_> hahh most of it is c**p
[16:14:08] <coden4life> I am jealous you can tap
[16:14:16] <pjm_> <£5 for all that stuff
[16:14:41] <pjm_> coden4life well the encoder stuff etc was done with a lot of help from the experts in here
[16:14:44] <archivist> cheap for the pile
[16:14:56] <pjm_> and the v2.3beta of emc is sweet as you like for tapping
[16:15:03] <BigJohnT> loads of terminal blocks a manual motor starter and lots of other stuff
[16:15:19] <BigJohnT> a power supply
[16:15:30] <pjm_> archivist when i get up to warwick with tihs linear bearing, i will put this junk in the car and u can pick through it ;-)
[16:16:07] <archivist> I have some equivalent in "stock"
[16:16:13] <coden4life> I turned a (WW2) drill press into a cnc mill/drill I have no spindle reverse
[16:16:26] <pjm_> brb food. the best item out of that stuff is the mitsubishi fr-u120s 0.75Kw VFD tho
[16:37:47] <coden4life> thanks pjm_: now I have motivation to see about using the 2 relay connections on my controller card to see if I can get a spindle forward and reverse going
[16:38:06] <pjm_> * pjm_ back
[16:38:17] <pjm_> coden4life yeah that will be excellent if u can get that running
[16:38:42] <coden4life> tapping by hand ain't that enjoyable
[16:38:49] <pjm_> archivist is there a cnc parts swap forum anywhere for UK folks (not meant to exclude any other folks btw)
[16:39:30] <pjm_> coden4life yeah i was making some boxes for a microwave amplifier that needed M2 tapped holes and it was pretty nice to have the machine do them
[16:43:45] <pjm_> BigJohnT, hi, presumably these PLC's I have cant be made to do anything useful unless i have this programming s/w etc? I see under a conver there is a connector for RS422 comms, should be fairly simple to convert that to 232
[16:43:48] <archivist> pjm_, I did come across a UK forum but did not join it (commercial behind it)
[16:43:58] <pjm_> ahh ok
[16:44:08] <coden4life> I just finished a beginners sagcad video tut does anyone have any good english tuts on the subject ... I did a 1" cube with 1/4" corner radius and then how to use the cam button ... simple for the advanced users but I am no expert so I thought it would help the rest of us.
[16:44:19] <pjm_> it would just be handy to offer this stuff to fellow emc'ers to help with their machines etc
[16:44:50] <BigJohnT> if you can find the pinout for the programming cable then you need the software... there should be some dos software out there to program them
[16:44:54] <coden4life> cnczone might be a place for that kinda thing
[16:44:58] <BigJohnT> melsec or something like that
[16:46:23] <pjm_> ah ok thanks, i'll have a look. It'll be another steep learning curve - still not sure what i would use them for at this point in time ;-)
[16:46:42] <BigJohnT> flea bay :)
[16:46:47] <archivist> pjm_, I saw some MCB's up at a computer fair yesterday but I have enough
[16:47:17] <coden4life> that is a problem I think a lot of tinkerers have... got it but what to use it for
[16:47:41] <pjm_> coden4life - yes exactly, i have 3 big sheds 'full of stuff that will come in handy one day'
[16:47:52] <pjm_> i'm sure my missus chucks boxes of it out and i dont even notice
[16:48:35] <coden4life> lmao
[16:48:37] <pjm_> perhaps i'll put the PLC's on ebay and the $ can go towards a 7I43 card
[16:48:53] <archivist> there is a model engineers site which is free and unecumbered cant remember where though, didnt see much cnc
[16:49:09] <pjm_> she went into a 'tazmainian devil' type frenzy when she saw me lugging todays haul of c**p down the garden
[16:49:18] <archivist> :)
[16:49:33] <archivist> hide it in the car till dark
[16:49:40] <coden4life> yup
[16:49:41] <pjm_> i justified it by saying it was only a few quid
[16:49:50] <pjm_> and i had to have it at that price
[16:50:01] <pjm_> a poor excuse i know
[16:50:04] <coden4life> they don't care bout the cost they just see junk
[16:50:13] <pjm_> exactly
[16:50:29] <pjm_> ah if i got rid of my missus, i could fill the house up with c**p too!
[16:50:47] <pjm_> and my machines could get moved in the the room formally known as the kitchen
[16:51:01] <coden4life> ya
[16:51:48] <coden4life> I have one in the basement and the garage wife is asken bout when I am taken the one in the basement to the garage
[16:51:58] <archivist> Im old free and single :)
[16:52:19] <coden4life> young married and learning
[16:52:27] <archivist> running out of house need more shed
[16:53:16] <coden4life> wife thinks it is bull that I make more $$ and did not go to college and she is a nurse..... I told her to become a machinist we could make $$$ together
[16:53:55] <jmkasunich> and both get laid off together
[16:54:05] <jmkasunich> stay diversified ;-)
[16:54:27] <coden4life> skills I have around here are hard to find
[16:54:43] <jmkasunich> how big are the parts you work on?
[16:54:55] <coden4life> depends
[16:55:11] <coden4life> but I work for a group that will always have work
[16:55:16] <jmkasunich> if they fit on a plane, its only a matter of time before they are done in china
[16:55:59] <archivist> luckily china does not do cheap 1 off
[16:56:15] <coden4life> and the guys I work with are not willing to use the new technologies that we keep getting were I jump right in and my employer has no others to turn to ....
[16:56:32] <coden4life> and what I make won't be given to other nations to make
[16:56:46] <coden4life> it is a matter of national security
[16:56:52] <jmkasunich> that helps
[16:56:55] <coden4life> ya
[16:57:11] <coden4life> even if your not in a war you still need parts
[16:59:21] <jmkasunich> what do you make parts for? (or is it a secret?)
[17:00:31] <coden4life> communications.... aircraft........ cabinets (boxes)....... complex geometries
[17:00:44] <pjmcnc> interesting
[17:00:51] <pjmcnc> stuff for EW ?
[17:01:02] <coden4life> no
[17:02:05] <coden4life> most the prints say they are covered under international arms agreement and cannot leave the US
[17:02:59] <jmkasunich> encrypted comms probably
[17:03:11] <coden4life> not anything secret about it but you know how things are... just the cases
[17:03:19] <coden4life> we don't assemble
[17:03:30] <coden4life> so what goes in em is a mystery
[17:03:37] <jmkasunich> you work for a commercial company, right?
[17:03:44] <coden4life> ya
[17:03:53] <jmkasunich> does it have any overseas facilities?
[17:04:04] <coden4life> only one facility
[17:04:24] <jmkasunich> if so, its only a matter of time till your bosses start trying to convince the powers that be that the cases aren't really secret, and should be unprotected
[17:04:39] <coden4life> na
[17:04:48] <jmkasunich> that amazes me
[17:04:54] <coden4life> cause we are like the third man on the rung
[17:05:10] <coden4life> we make it for so and so who makes it for so and so
[17:05:31] <coden4life> who puts it all together for uncle sam
[17:05:34] <coden4life> lol
[17:05:44] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich is skeptical
[17:05:56] <jmkasunich> there isn't a business around that isn't trying to figure out how to cut costs
[17:06:22] <jmkasunich> and getting stuff from overseas is a favorite way
[17:07:12] <jmkasunich> big businesses anyway - small ones that have only one facility not so much
[17:07:27] <jmkasunich> but the top rung on your ladder might decide that it can get the parts from elsewhere
[17:08:01] <coden4life> ya my first gig... I worked for a seal maker and they had plants all over... the swiss plant is the one I would have like to went to
[17:08:17] <coden4life> a to be 18 again ...
[17:08:44] <jmkasunich> no thanks
[17:10:28] <coden4life> back then I was dumb and thought making good $ and running a cnc for someone was just fine.... Now I do the math and realize I could make a killing running 4 to 5 of my own machines ... lol
[17:11:24] <archivist> and usually the capital cost to startup is a killer
[17:12:01] <archivist> EMC gives the small guy a step on the ladder
[17:14:49] <coden4life> well I have been a linux user since 96 and that is when I started machining... I like building machines and if I can build a few a year and make a little cash I could get into that.. I know I won't be no Okuma or Tsugami but they started somewhere.
[17:17:20] <archivist> I intend retrofitting a dead commercial cnc with EMC when I can afford one
[17:18:25] <coden4life> so if I see a used machine on ebay... with say working motors and good ways .... for cheap (in the UK) and buy it for you would you do the retro
[17:19:35] <coden4life> or will it have to be a machine you believe you can do it to
[17:19:56] <archivist> I keep an eye on dead stuff on ebay, there is one in a few days
[17:19:57] <coden4life> or are you like me and don't believe in the impossible just improbable
[17:20:28] <coden4life> improbable due to lack of motivation
[17:20:29] <coden4life> lol
[17:20:43] <archivist> 110371217543 looks doable
[17:22:16] <coden4life> hell ya it does
[17:23:40] <archivist> only space and transport and some spare cash slows me
[17:24:21] <archivist> no one bid for 280324887839 dunno if you can see it
[17:26:25] <coden4life> nope can't see it
[17:27:05] <archivist> still in my watch list, was a mazak but too large for me at home
[17:28:11] <jst_home_> coden4life: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280324887839
[17:28:34] <jst_home_> jst_home_ is now known as jst_home
[17:30:32] <coden4life> that looks like a monster of a machine for milling
[17:32:42] <coden4life> 390041700717 what is the verdict on this one ...
[17:32:56] <coden4life> says it was taken outta service
[17:35:08] <archivist> poor thing has been worked to death there seems to be some snake il in the test :)
[17:35:13] <archivist> text
[17:41:00] <BigJohnT> writing a comp is fun :)
[18:02:45] <pcw> BigJohn: Other than power you only really need 1 wire from V-F to 5I20
[18:04:04] <pcw> (or Parallel port)
[18:55:40] <BigJohnT> hi pcw
[18:55:53] <BigJohnT> dang just missed him
[18:58:34] <pcw> Hi BigJohn
[18:59:07] <BigJohnT> wow your back
[19:00:09] <BigJohnT> so other than +5, gnd which do I use?
[19:00:53] <pcw> Didn'yt actually leave just that this version of Firefox is about as stable as a pig on stilts
[19:01:12] <BigJohnT> that would be funny to see
[19:01:24] <pcw> + F0 or -FO
[19:01:37] <BigJohnT> ok
[19:02:29] <BigJohnT> my plan for the moment is to hook it to the parallel port card on one computer down here in the beer cave to get the HAL component working
[19:02:40] <pcw> The "B" encoder input needs to be grounded (or tied high)
[19:03:16] <pcw> I guess unconnected would be OK (high) in 5I20 case
[19:03:32] <BigJohnT> ok
[19:04:09] <BigJohnT> ok to use my lab power supply to provide the 0-10vdc for the input?
[19:04:48] <BigJohnT> for testing
[19:05:36] <pcw> Sure, you wouldn't hut it by connecting the inputs to 120VAC...
[19:05:46] <pcw> (hurt)
[19:07:16] <BigJohnT> that's good to know
[19:07:18] <pcw> it will take 500V continuous on the inputs without the external divider
[19:07:19] <pcw> (50 --> 1 overload)
[19:07:52] <BigJohnT> wow
[19:12:37] <pcw> The divide by 32 and divide by 16 jumper settings are swapped on the board artwork
[19:12:39] <pcw> but the options are right, F/1 F/16 F/32 F/128
[19:12:40] <pcw> so you have a ~ 1MHz FS, ~30 KHz FS, ~15 KHz FS and ~7KHz FS
[19:12:42] <pcw> so you can select one thats not too fast for your base thread to track
[19:12:43] <pcw> Theres also a blinky LED to show the approximate rate
[19:13:03] <BigJohnT> ok
[19:14:05] <BigJohnT> so if I apply 0-10 volts to the input for testing is it the same as the voltage divider circuit for the 0-300 volts?
[19:14:53] <pcw> Yes
[19:15:22] <BigJohnT> ok, just wanted to make sure :)
[19:17:30] <BigJohnT> I actually got a good start on a THC HAL component today
[19:17:35] <pcw> one end of 300v resistor string to Vtorch,
[19:17:37] <pcw> other end of resistor string to THCAD -IN
[19:17:39] <pcw> THCAD +in to plasma "work"
[19:18:11] <BigJohnT> ok
[19:18:14] <pcw> I guess starting and stopping are tricky
[19:18:50] <BigJohnT> stopping is more tricky than starting as you have to "bleed off" the offset as you retract the torch
[19:19:56] <BigJohnT> once you fire the torch off and get within the tolerance of velocity you can start to apply the offset when needed
[19:20:14] <pcw> you have a step motor Z axis?
[19:20:21] <BigJohnT> yes
[19:20:49] <BigJohnT> gecko 203v's
[19:21:32] <pcw> So you use a PID loop for height with voltage feedback?
[19:21:46] <pcw> (torch voltage)
[19:23:11] <BigJohnT> no, the plan was to use the velocity*scale to add to the Z motor commanded position but I'm open to suggestions
[19:23:43] <BigJohnT> or something like that
[19:24:50] <pcw> Oh OK, sounds like a way to start
[19:25:10] <BigJohnT> yea, start simple and work from there
[19:26:50] <pcw> So you have a torch height (voltage) setpoint?
[19:27:05] <BigJohnT> basicly my "set voltage" will be converted to number to equal to the velocity feedback from the THCAD and the difference times a scale will be added to the Z position command
[19:27:23] <BigJohnT> that will be a pyVCP item
[19:27:39] <BigJohnT> a dial or spin box
[19:29:04] <BigJohnT> the best thing is my plasma torch is on a floating head so with a drag tip on the torch I can't hurt it :)
[19:29:22] <pcw> So its a "P" loop with gain being your scale
[19:30:52] <BigJohnT> yes
[19:30:59] <pcw> Thats really good for testing, since diving into your work is almost guaranteed first time...
[19:31:58] <BigJohnT> yep there is going to be some "hey, hold my beer and watch this" moments for sure
[19:34:03] <BigJohnT> the floating head has a contact switch that I use to locate the top of the material before each cut...
[19:34:28] <BigJohnT> dang string must have broke
[19:35:42] <pcw> well if that could be a Z axis limit it might be a little less exciting
[19:36:09] <BigJohnT> that is what I was just thinking about
[19:37:13] <BigJohnT> also the Hypertherm has connection points for the tip voltage signal labeled + and - on the main circuit board so they make that easy
[19:43:34] <pcw> Thats convenient, no guessing
[19:43:36] <pcw> For non HF start torches I can assemble a THCAD that has the right resistors for 0-300V
[19:43:37] <pcw> on the main card so its wont need the external divider but the external resistors are safer
[19:43:39] <pcw> especially if they are located at the Plasma supply.
[19:44:38] <BigJohnT> yes it is much safer to have them inside of the plasma torch. btw, the hypertherm 1250 is a non HF start
[19:47:47] <pcw> Good, dont want to be piping the plasma power around on skinny wires,
[19:47:48] <pcw> HF start have very nasty EMI problems, but I think The THCAD would work with them,
[19:47:50] <pcw> just need HV resistors to survive the 20KV or so starting voltage
[19:48:47] <BigJohnT> seems like off the shelf THC's have a hard time coping with HF start plasma torches from what I've read on the Zone
[19:49:58] <pcw> Yah, A-Ds dont really like Tesla coil input :-)
[19:57:27] <pcw> If you have the resistors inside the torch or plasma supply, you can get 300V open circuit
[19:57:29] <pcw> if the THCAD is disconnected but current is limited to 100 uA so theres no shock hazard
[19:58:28] <BigJohnT> that's good to know :)
[20:00:32] <BigJohnT> well after some searching it looks like the 487k resistors are a 0411 size :) learning eagle is fun
[20:01:31] <pcw> Power dissipation of the whole series resistor string is just 30 mW
[20:01:33] <pcw> so they could be shrink tubed
[20:02:03] <BigJohnT> that would make it easy
[20:04:50] <alex_joni> hi guys
[20:04:55] <alex_joni> I see you're having fun
[20:05:06] <BigJohnT> hi alex_joni
[20:05:09] <BigJohnT> you bet
[20:05:28] <pcw> Hi Alex
[20:06:52] <alex_joni> http://failblog.org/2009/04/05/serious-safety-fail-2/ <- lol
[20:09:06] <pcw> HaHa looks like that would deter the sending of _any_ alarms
[20:12:10] <BigJohnT> except for a kid who would in a heartbeat figure out how to do it with out getting caught
[20:12:16] <alex_joni> heh
[20:12:19] <alex_joni> use a stick :D
[20:14:41] <alex_joni> whoa.. this is cool: http://lifehacker.com/5195999/portable-ubuntu-runs-ubuntu-inside-windows
[20:16:57] <Roguish> hey, all. quick question. i've got a standard 2.8 version installed on 6.06, but haven't seen an udate message for 2.3
[20:17:14] <BigJohnT> you won't
[20:17:27] <Roguish> do i need a new install for 2.3? or what?
[20:17:28] <jmkasunich> major rev updates (2.2.x to 2.3.0) aren't automatic
[20:17:30] <BigJohnT> you have to ask it to update to 2.3
[20:18:30] <BigJohnT> Roguish: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?UpdatingTo2.3
[20:19:02] <Roguish> was just looking for that. thanks.
[20:23:12] <jmkasunich> http://failblog.org/2009/03/23/parking-fail-11/
[20:26:17] <SkinnYPuP> was thinking i could get an r/v in that hole faster
[20:38:44] <motioncontrol> good morning.One question for pyvcp. with xemc interface the pyvcp scripts fuction or no?
[20:50:52] <wildrice> What is the procedure for upgrading from Dapper to Hardy? I started the update, but it says that it will remove EMC2 (and lots of other stuff). Do I just do the regular Ubuntu upgrade to Hardy, or are there special instructions?
[20:52:36] <alex_joni> wildrice: you can do the regular update to hardy
[20:52:45] <alex_joni> but after it finishes, you need to run the emc2 install script
[20:52:54] <alex_joni> just as if you would on a fresh 8.04 install
[20:53:18] <alex_joni> wildrice: bear in mind that I only tried the complete upgrade once, but it worked for me
[20:53:25] <alex_joni> remember to backup your data first
[20:54:57] <motioncontrol> good morning.i prove the xemc interface with pyvcp , but the pyvcp not start with xemc interface. because?
[20:55:17] <alex_joni> you need to start it yourself from the hal file
[20:55:26] <alex_joni> loadusr pyvcp ...
[20:55:44] <alex_joni> the exact commands you can see in the halui_pyvcp sample dir for example
[20:56:56] <motioncontrol> good mornin alex. i start halui_pyvcp example and change the interface in ini file of axis at xemc.with axis the pyvcp started, with xemc no started.
[20:57:18] <Gamma-X> Hey everyone.
[20:57:55] <Gamma-X> BigJohnT, hey u there old man? haha
[20:58:17] <wildrice> Ok, I am going to hit the button. Looks like I will see in a couple of hours. Thanks.
[20:58:42] <SkinnYPuP> wildrice, don't forget to back up your machine config files too
[20:59:24] <wildrice> Just the stuff in the emc2 folder in my home folder, Right?
[20:59:47] <SkinnYPuP> yeah.
[21:00:11] <SkinnYPuP> since it wants to remove emc2
[21:00:30] <wildrice> I backed up my entire home folder, but nothing it outside of that.
[21:00:36] <alex_joni> motioncontrol: what is the error?
[21:00:56] <alex_joni> SkinnYPuP: removing emc2 won't remove your config files
[21:01:19] <SkinnYPuP> thanks for the correction alex, didn't know that
[21:01:36] <alex_joni> no problem, just usefull to know ;)
[21:01:46] <SkinnYPuP> sure enough
[21:01:49] <alex_joni> backing these up is always a lot better than to be sorry afterwards though
[21:02:10] <alex_joni> using apt-get remove emc2, won't even remove the sample configs from /etc/emc2 (in 2.2.x)
[21:02:27] <alex_joni> only using apt-get remove --purge emc2 will
[21:04:30] <motioncontrol> alex not are the error.the terminal write : warning:cannot open file; no such file or directory
[21:05:30] <alex_joni> sounds like a typo
[21:05:36] <alex_joni> or you don't have xemc compiled
[21:05:43] <alex_joni> check if sim/xemc.ini starts
[21:06:00] <alex_joni> I suspect you don't Xaw libs & co installed, and xemc didn't get compiled
[21:06:54] <alex_joni> uname -a
[21:06:55] <alex_joni> Linux pubuntu #1 PREEMPT Sat May 24 22:27:30 UTC 2008 i686 GNU/Linux
[21:07:56] <motioncontrol> ok i control
[21:17:25] <motioncontrol> alex excuse. i start the config halui_pyvcp and i have change only in halui.ini only the dispay line : axis in xemc.when start the emc the xemc open normaly , but the pyvcp panel no started . i sue the cvs version.You thing i recompile ?
[21:19:08] <alex_joni> motioncontrol: I need an error message to tell you what's wrong
[21:19:17] <alex_joni> start emc2 from a terminal, and pastebin the log
[21:19:29] <motioncontrol> ok
[21:22:20] <motioncontrol> http://pastebin.ca/1383070
[21:22:59] <BigJohnT> I am now Gamma-X
[21:23:02] <alex_joni> nothing else there?
[21:23:16] <alex_joni> try emc -d
[21:23:25] <motioncontrol> ok i prove
[21:24:16] <BigJohnT> how do you tell eagle what size board your going to use?
[21:24:45] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: it depends on how much you pay :P
[21:24:47] <skunkworks> The outside peremeter is the board size
[21:25:17] <motioncontrol> http://pastebin.ca/1383077
[21:25:27] <BigJohnT> nothing
[21:25:56] <BigJohnT> it shows about a 3 x 4 board and I want a 1 x 4 board...
[21:27:06] <alex_joni> motioncontrol: odd
[21:27:15] <alex_joni> any messages in dmesg?
[21:27:25] <alex_joni> try a sudo dmesg -c (to clear dmesg)
[21:27:28] <alex_joni> then run emc2 once
[21:27:30] <skunkworks> you just move the outside perimeter to 1X4
[21:28:10] <motioncontrol> ok i prove
[21:28:16] <BigJohnT> skunkworks: got it thanks
[21:28:36] <Gamma-X> BigJohnT, HEY!
[21:28:53] <BigJohnT> what's up Gamma-X
[21:29:17] <Gamma-X> getting ready for bed haha. I told u about the whole iraq ting right?
[21:29:28] <BigJohnT> nope
[21:29:35] <Gamma-X> yeah im in iraq...
[21:29:54] <jepler> fwiw I get the same thing as motioncontrol when I change [DISPLAY]DISPLAY=xemc in halui_pyvcp/halui.ini
[21:29:58] <BigJohnT> what are you doing over there
[21:30:11] <Gamma-X> Im a contractor. I do media forensics haha
[21:30:33] <BigJohnT> sounds like fun to me
[21:30:37] <alex_joni> jepler: humm
[21:30:39] <motioncontrol> http://pastebin.ca/1383090
[21:30:44] <Gamma-X> yeah its pretty awsome actually haha
[21:30:55] <Gamma-X> gettin a little hotter day by day though.
[21:31:10] <jepler> but that's not the reason that pyvcp doesn't start
[21:31:14] <Gamma-X> pretty cool to see the helicopters flying all over. Lots of gun fire 2.
[21:31:15] <jepler> POSTGUI_HALFILE = pyvcp.hal
[21:31:27] <alex_joni> ah, that only gets run by AXIS
[21:31:30] <jepler> Only axis supports POSTGUI_HALFILE
[21:31:52] <Gamma-X> I think I might give up on emc and just buy a working cnc machine or a new controller period...
[21:32:10] <jepler> change it to just HALFILE
[21:32:22] <jepler> I don't see any reason that it uses POSTGUI_HALFILE, also fwiw
[21:33:38] <motioncontrol> good morning jepler . i don't use the pyvcp with xemc?
[21:33:43] <alex_joni> jepler: I think initially it was set up to be part of AXIS
[21:34:05] <alex_joni> motioncontrol: he just said: change POSTGUI_HALFILE to HALFILE in halui.ini, and it will work
[21:34:32] <motioncontrol> ok i prove
[21:34:57] <jepler> right, having made the two changes shown here I get xemc and pyvcp: http://pastebin.ca/1383094
[21:36:44] <jepler> the "cannot open file ;" message comes from inside Xt, after it tries to open a file with an empty name
[21:36:58] <motioncontrol> ok more thanks now fuction ok
[21:40:47] <skunkworks> BigJohnT: If you have any hangups just ask. I know I asked a few questions on here. Jepler and cradek have used eagle quite a bit and now I have a pretty good Idea how things work
[21:42:22] <BigJohnT> skunkworks: thanks I seem to have a board layout done and am fumbling around trying to see what is next to say drill the holes...
[21:42:36] <jepler> motioncontrol: the other warning is because you did not specify [DISPLAY]HELP_FILE in your inifile. You can specify any text file you like, and I guess xemc will display it when you click the "Help" button.
[21:43:43] <skunkworks> BigJohnT: are you going to cnc it?
[21:43:51] <BigJohnT> yes
[21:44:02] <BigJohnT> at least I think so LOL
[21:44:57] <motioncontrol> ok thanks for info jepler i add the help file.in Italy is 00.00 pm i start my sleep.Good day at all.
[21:45:35] <BigJohnT> skunkworks: I might just cnc the holes then use the sharpie method for the traces...
[21:46:02] <wildrice> BigJohn: Do you have PCB-gcode installed yet?
[21:46:18] <BigJohnT> not that I know of...
[21:46:45] <BigJohnT> is that part of eagle or something else
[21:46:52] <alex_joni> addon iirc
[21:47:09] <wildrice> It is installed into the egale libs.
[21:47:22] <wildrice> You can get a copy at: http://pcbgcode.org/index.php?5
[21:50:23] <wildrice> I just installed it a few weeks ago, but it really seems to work well. It does not optimize the tool paths, but there is another package that you can add to do that.
[21:50:34] <skunkworks> BigJohnT: I haved ^ ... But I currently use the script written by jepler/cradek. http://unpy.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/eagle/ulp/
[21:51:04] <BigJohnT> skunkworks: thanks
[21:51:28] <skunkworks> But I use tool length setting with a microswith with is already setup in the one by jepler/cradek
[21:51:42] <skunkworks> which
[21:51:44] <wildrice> Skunkworks, I will have to give that one a try too. Thanks.
[21:54:06] <jepler> one cool feature of the unpy.net one is that you can use two trace removal tools -- a coarse one and a fine one. a not so great feature is that you have to modify the .ulp (eagle script) to change anything about the output..
[21:54:23] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/servostart/top.JPG
[21:54:51] <BigJohnT> ok, I have gcode.ulp in my /eagle/ulp directory
[21:55:16] <skunkworks> jepler: works great. I have not needed more. there are a few things that I would like to see if I could add. simple things like tool length cancel at the end of the program
[21:56:02] <BigJohnT> how do I use gcode.ulp?
[21:56:07] <skunkworks> run gcode
[21:56:24] <jepler> if it can't find it with "run gcode", just type "run" then navigate to gcode.ulp using the file browser
[21:56:27] <BigJohnT> ok, I see a ulp button :)
[21:58:18] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT slaps his forehead
[21:58:24] <jepler> bbl
[21:58:54] <BigJohnT> works now :)
[22:04:24] <alex_joni> http://imagebin.org/44450
[22:05:56] <alex_joni> the preview doesn't work for some odd reason (glxgears seems to be working though)
[22:07:28] <alex_joni> jepler: any ideas what this means? http://pastebin.ca/1383125
[22:08:13] <BigJohnT> I get a whole bunch of html stuff in the top of the.ngc file...
[22:12:40] <skunkworks> BigJohnT: windows or linux?
[22:13:04] <BigJohnT> linux
[22:13:10] <BigJohnT> http://pastebin.ca/1383130
[22:17:32] <skunkworks> oh - I think it doesn't work with the latest version of eagle.....
[22:18:09] <skunkworks> Now that I think about it...
[22:18:58] <skunkworks> I was going to mention that a few weeks ago'
[22:25:55] <cradek> BigJohnT: your singlesided.gpar is downloaded wrong. it should be only a few lines.
[22:28:09] <BigJohnT> cradek: thanks, I'll do it again
[22:30:11] <alex_joni> portable_ubuntu might be a really nice way to show off emc2
[22:30:19] <alex_joni> for windows people who might want to switch
[22:33:31] <alex_joni> it's using colinux (http://www.colinux.org/)
[22:37:05] <BigJohnT> now I get a start point too close to probe point :(
[22:40:29] <BigJohnT> well, I gotta run bbl
[22:40:35] <BigJohnT> thanks for the help guys
[22:42:18] <cradek> I think it uses g30 to find the tool length probe switch - maybe you need to monkey with that.
[22:46:35] <alex_joni> good night all
[22:47:13] <skunkworks> my issue with the latest verion of eagle> It was permission issue with the ulp directory
[22:48:55] <skunkworks> (just fixed it)
[22:49:08] <skunkworks> * skunkworks is now a linux guru ;)
[22:53:12] <skunkworks> I should also add a header for pluging in a fan
[23:07:03] <dareposte> mo o
[23:34:05] <BigJohnT> I got the board to load in emc but I had to modify all the probe moves...