#emc | Logs for 2009-03-25

[00:13:23] <jepler> newbie: 29 lb-in = 464 oz-in? this site offers comparable ones in nema34 -- up to 1813oz-in = 113 ft-in http://www.kelinginc.net/SMotorstock.html
[00:13:43] <newbie> yeah but those are peak torque
[00:13:54] <newbie> newbie is now known as dareposte
[00:13:57] <jepler> oh, oops -- you said servos
[00:13:59] <jepler> and I ignored you
[00:14:00] <jepler> forget it
[00:14:02] <dareposte> heh
[00:14:06] <dareposte> no problem, thanks for the responsee
[00:14:19] <dareposte> i guess i will have to call up a baldor rep, but they always try to screw me on pricing
[00:18:09] <dareposte> I need something like this: http://www.baldor.com/products/servomotors/dc_servomotor/dc_servo_spec.asp?CatalogNumber=MT-4070-BLYCE
[00:18:19] <dareposte> or at least think I need it
[00:19:38] <JymmmEMC> Hey, if I wanted to make a small 12" engraving machine, what do you think would be be a good spindle to use?
[00:19:58] <dareposte> air engraver?
[00:20:12] <dareposte> like a dentists drill without the 90 degree angle in it
[00:20:26] <dareposte> I think I found my motor source: http://www.clickautomation.com/products/index.php?func=show&pid=2033&cid=300
[00:20:27] <JymmmEMC> electric
[00:20:31] <jepler> http://quicksilvercontrols.com/store/catalog/QCI-A34H-1-Servo-Motor-w-Encoder-43.html
[00:20:38] <jepler> (just from google, not personal experience)
[00:21:57] <JymmmEMC> Like a dremel, but better quality
[00:22:08] <dareposte> not bad, but 16000 cpr lol
[00:22:18] <dareposte> can a mesa keep up with that?
[00:22:52] <dareposte> JymmmEMC: it's hard to beat a turbine based engraver, but electric they make electric die grinders you might look into
[00:23:06] <jepler> dareposte: the bit I'm confused by is "Index Pulse: 49 - SilverLode Controller/Drivers internally translate to a single index pulse."
[00:23:17] <jepler> surely they don't mean there are 49 "index" pulses per revolution?
[00:23:32] <dareposte> I hope not
[00:23:32] <JymmmEMC> sewing machien motor??? http://www.data-cut.com/page5es.html
[00:23:49] <jepler> dareposte: yes, 16000cpr@2000rpm is 533kHz and no problem on mesa with differential encoder inputs
[00:24:57] <dareposte> http://www.performancetoolcenter.com/ge0600.html
[00:25:17] <dareposte> jepler: not bad, your pricing is better and it comes with an encoder
[00:25:27] <dareposte> it looks a bit small for the stated torque though
[00:25:29] <dareposte> imho
[00:25:38] <jepler> I have no sense of that
[00:27:15] <dareposte> the servos i've seen that are that range tend to look quite a bit larger in length, and the frame has been a 34 or 43 sized frame
[00:27:33] <dareposte> bookmarked it though, it may be a good thing to come back to
[00:28:29] <skunkworks> JymmmEMC: that looks like a hermes head. - sewing machine motor
[00:29:00] <JymmmEMC> http://www.visionengravers.com/products/Vision-router-engraving-accessories.html#A5
[00:30:00] <jepler> what I'm surprised by is putting 16A through pins on an HD15 connector -- unless I'm mistaken, that's the connector style of VGA monitors -- not on that specific motor, but it's an option shown in the datasheet
[00:31:57] <jepler> ah I guess that's only an option on the smallest motor in that range, 3.7A
[00:33:33] <jepler> er, hm -- the power pins are called A-, A+, B-, B+. That's not a servo
[00:33:38] <jepler> at least not a simple dc servo
[00:33:39] <skunkworks> heh
[00:40:13] <jepler> aha: "Our servo controllers convert traditional microstep motors into servo motors also known as closed loop stepper motors. What the industry commonly refers to as a “stepper motor” is, more accurately, a 2 phase, 100 pole, AC brushless motor"
[00:41:17] <jdhNC> using encoders?
[00:41:41] <jepler> jdhNC: yes, high resolution encoders + steppers + expensive pixie dust controller boxes
[00:41:49] <jepler> 16000cpr as dareposte noted above
[00:42:39] <archivist> "traditional microstep motors" odd term
[00:43:31] <jdhNC> heh, scrolled by, this window is only 5 lines
[00:43:48] <jdhNC> and... Hi everyone
[00:48:41] <skinnypup> I prefer this little thing over dremel , its easy to clamp in the tool post too
[00:48:54] <skinnypup> http://www.air-supply.com.au/shop/product.php?productid=17099
[00:49:13] <skinnypup> just the first one i found online
[00:52:50] <jepler> skinnypup: I've seen similar at a local imported-from-china shop
[00:52:53] <jepler> never bought/used it though
[00:53:35] <skinnypup> yeah just scrolled down and saw the $$$$$ lol
[00:53:48] <skinnypup> think i gave 35 or 40 bucks though
[00:53:59] <jdhNC> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=47869
[00:54:18] <eric_unterhause1> I don't think the au$ is quite that weak
[00:55:17] <eric_unterhause1> I'm not very happy with dremels since I fried one on its first use
[00:58:03] <jepler> jdhNC: yeah that's the one
[00:58:17] <skinnypup> dremel might be ok if they bothered to ballance the darn things... i can't stand to use one
[00:59:01] <jdhNC> balancing would take $$$
[01:04:07] <eric_unterhause1> it was worse than the balance at one time, they got rid of a bearing and replaced it with a rubber sleeve
[01:04:56] <skinnypup> Must figure you won't wear it out if ya gotta put it down due to the numb hand
[01:04:57] <eric_unterhause1> I think they went back though
[01:05:20] <eric_unterhause1> I'd still like to have a foredom
[01:06:37] <jdhNC> I think I've ruined/destroyed pretty much everything that I've tried to use a dremel on.
[01:06:40] <dmess> i have a BIG smaller macine going in
[01:07:14] <eric_unterhause1> foredom now sells a belt sander attachment, that's intriguing
[01:07:17] <dmess> for me anyway
[01:07:47] <eric_unterhause1> dmess, what is it, some kind of machining center?
[01:08:23] <dmess> i need a CAT50 jig grinding attatchment
[01:08:47] <eric_unterhause1> one of the guys at work left his ebay account logged in, so I put a pink frilly tutu on his watch list
[01:09:11] <dmess> yes.... smallish boring mill with a 200mm quill
[01:09:37] <eric_unterhause1> smallish boring mill meaning it isn't quite big enough for a 747 landing gear?
[01:10:22] <dmess> no.. but i would eat the torque links ;)
[01:11:46] <dareposte> why does everybody always get excited about the boring mills??
[01:12:08] <SWPadnos> priority inversion
[01:12:18] <eric_unterhause1> they are largish
[01:12:24] <dmess> 1.5m x 1m x1m x 700mm of 200mmdia quill
[01:12:43] <dareposte> that doesn't sound boring at all
[01:12:43] <eric_unterhause1> and we can go over to SWP's house and use his new lathe any time we want
[01:12:55] <SWPadnos> only if you don't want to work on boring stuff
[01:13:03] <dmess> look up the Toshiba btd 200 qh
[01:13:46] <dareposte> http://www.toshibamachine.ca/images/equipment/BTD-200QH/BTD-200QH.jpg
[01:13:49] <dareposte> that one?
[01:14:31] <dmess> i'm looking at a boring head on the quill/ram
[01:14:32] <eric_unterhause1> anything you need steps to change the tool on would take too much 'splainin' to the wife
[01:14:56] <toastydeath> dareposte: that's more of a horizontal mill, unless it has a quill
[01:15:19] <dmess> has a 60 t/c on it
[01:15:43] <dareposte> dmess: you must have a serious shop
[01:15:48] <dareposte> to be fitting that thing in there
[01:16:06] <dmess> it has a 200mm dia quill that reaches 700mm out.... ;)
[01:16:42] <dareposte> * dareposte converts to inches
[01:16:54] <dareposte> holy cow
[01:17:02] <dmess> dont splain to the wife leave her
[01:17:23] <dmess> 8" x 16"
[01:17:46] <dmess> she's GOT BALLS
[01:18:23] <dareposte> your wife?
[01:18:51] <toastydeath> sounds like a hormone problem
[01:19:04] <jdhNC> or a drinking problem
[01:19:20] <dmess> 10" f/c is chicken poop .. ohh well were done.. just co-habitating... btfa
[01:20:28] <dmess> machine is in VAN CANada waitin me to send it a home
[01:20:31] <toastydeath> dareposte: there's a suprising number of large machine tool shops
[01:21:05] <dareposte> yeah
[01:21:10] <toastydeath> one of the places near me aparently has a 500" x 120" floor mount boring mill
[01:21:21] <dareposte> i know those are needed for industry
[01:21:47] <toastydeath> OR ARE THEY
[01:21:51] <dareposte> i didn't figure there would be a lot of huge shops using EMC though, figured it wouldn't be cost effective for that type of work
[01:21:57] <toastydeath> oh, there aren't
[01:22:01] <dmess> tell them to look for wor off shore
[01:22:30] <dareposte> so dmess apparently has both a large shop, and some interest in emc
[01:22:35] <toastydeath> the inserts that go in one facemill on those machines can cost $5000 easily
[01:22:50] <toastydeath> spending 10-20k on a control is not an issue when the hardware is 1.5-2.0 million
[01:22:59] <dareposte> yeah that's kind of what i was thinking
[01:23:18] <dareposte> now my $1000 bridgeport clone made in taiwan, seems to be an excellent candidate for emc
[01:23:23] <dareposte> :-D
[01:23:35] <toastydeath> srs
[01:23:56] <dareposte> dmess: what control did your new machine come with, out of curiosity
[01:24:08] <dmess> i work for Messier-Dowty.... and i have a hardinge i need to pour to EMC
[01:24:26] <jdhNC> are laptops really not suitable for EMC? Nothing that can be configured to make them acceptable?
[01:24:46] <SWPadnos> depends on the laptop, but that's usually the case
[01:25:33] <jdhNC> I have an old compaq p4 that has no current purpose
[01:26:10] <SWPadnos> unfortunately, we can't tell you whether it will work or not, or what you ahve to do to make it work
[01:26:24] <dmess> Tosnuc 999
[01:26:25] <SWPadnos> there are some guidelines on the wiki
[01:26:42] <jdhNC> can you tell me what to look for to tell that it isn't?
[01:26:42] <SWPadnos> you need to disable anything having to do with power management, ACPIP, system management, etc.
[01:26:55] <SWPadnos> basically if it's automatic, turn it off in teh BIOS :)
[01:27:01] <dmess> its a glorified fanuc 16
[01:27:33] <dmess> very glorified
[01:28:05] <toastydeath> i'd like a control that says creepy things
[01:28:15] <toastydeath> "What are you doing, Dave?"
[01:28:22] <jdhNC> it doesn't seem to have many bios options
[01:28:35] <SWPadnos> yeah, I think that's common with laptops too
[01:28:57] <dareposte> I want one that asks me "are you sure?" like four times before it does anything
[01:29:05] <dmess> no problem with that one and the right application guy
[01:29:29] <SWPadnos> jdhNC, try these: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?FixingSMIIssues and http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TroubleShooting
[01:29:38] <dareposte> dmess: so your interest in emc is for personal use, not business?
[01:29:43] <jdhNC> thank you!
[01:29:53] <dmess> dare.... that really pisses a good machinist off
[01:30:06] <dareposte> guess that tells you something about my abilities then :)
[01:30:31] <toastydeath> i have one control at work that's currently confusing the crap out of me
[01:30:56] <toastydeath> it's a fanuc 0T, but it's doing weird things when I command a U/W move in MDI
[01:31:20] <toastydeath> if I jog any part of the machine, the next relative move it makes will be in some totally random, not commanded direction
[01:31:30] <dareposte> that sounds inconvenient
[01:31:32] <dmess> most certenly.. ive been in SOME sort of EMC channel since i was born into LINUX live
[01:31:38] <toastydeath> I'll tell it "G0 U5.0"
[01:31:50] <toastydeath> and it'll go to like U-2.0 W-10.0
[01:31:53] <dareposte> pardon my ignorance, but which axis is U
[01:32:10] <toastydeath> on a dedicated lathe control, U is incremental on the X axis
[01:32:25] <dareposte> and W is Z incremental?
[01:32:31] <toastydeath> there is no g90/g91 on lathes.
[01:32:36] <toastydeath> yar
[01:33:02] <cradek> in EMC those are extra axes, even on a lathe
[01:33:14] <toastydeath> i know, i'm talking about every other control ever made
[01:33:16] <toastydeath> =)
[01:33:21] <cradek> I understand :-)
[01:33:36] <dmess> is this a faCING HEAd???
[01:33:55] <toastydeath> huh?
[01:34:22] <dmess> so the w controls the x
[01:34:28] <toastydeath> nar, this is lathe work
[01:34:30] <toastydeath> not mill work
[01:34:48] <dmess> bottle boring
[01:34:54] <toastydeath> i'm telling the lathe to make an incremental move in X up 2 inches, and it goes off in some crazy direction
[01:34:58] <toastydeath> often right into the part
[01:35:02] <dmess> same shit
[01:35:24] <toastydeath> w controls z
[01:35:38] <toastydeath> and none of the other lathes do this
[01:35:53] <toastydeath> maybe there's a "do crazy things at unexpected times" parameter
[01:35:54] <dmess> seen it
[01:36:12] <dmess> control??
[01:36:18] <toastydeath> fanuc 0t
[01:36:33] <dmess> fACKED
[01:36:50] <toastydeath> but none of our other 0t's do this
[01:36:56] <dmess> with W over z
[01:37:07] <toastydeath> ...?
[01:37:41] <dmess> (21:35:01) toastydeath: w controls z
[01:38:14] <toastydeath> w is supposed to control z on a lathe
[01:38:18] <toastydeath> that's normal
[01:38:32] <toastydeath> what is not normal is the control taking off in any random direction it feels like
[01:38:39] <dmess> it must be a PLC axis whitch they did use back then
[01:38:55] <toastydeath> no, it's standard
[01:39:07] <toastydeath> X/Z are absolute, U/W are incremental
[01:39:24] <toastydeath> no need to switch between g91/g90
[01:41:06] <dmess> i understand... ran manny a lathe... its all about the IJK 's
[01:42:18] <dareposte> toasty: so do you have one hand on the e-stop every time you do an mdi?
[01:42:48] <toastydeath> i never move that lathe in mdi because of that
[01:43:05] <toastydeath> makes it useless, it won't go where i want it to anyway
[01:43:29] <toastydeath> but i guess if you are asking in general, no
[01:44:24] <toastydeath> i keep the rapid down and the feed at 0 until i see where it's going to go pop up on the program check panel
[01:44:45] <toastydeath> unless it's something dumb, like homing it, then i just let it go.
[01:47:12] <dareposte> hm
[01:47:18] <toastydeath> i really hate having to hit estop, even in a crash
[01:47:20] <toastydeath> hitting reset usually works
[01:47:41] <toastydeath> then you have to re-home everything and the machine might get stuck
[01:47:48] <toastydeath> blah blah blah
[01:48:08] <dareposte> get stuck?
[01:48:24] <toastydeath> some machines home funny or move funny until they're homed.
[01:48:30] <dareposte> oh
[01:48:33] <toastydeath> and if you have a drill snapped off at an odd angle..
[01:48:40] <toastydeath> easier to recover if you haven't hit estop
[01:49:12] <dareposte> i think i'm going to have to give up on giant machine tools, they all weigh too much
[01:49:30] <dareposte> EDM's seem to be less hefty
[01:49:33] <toastydeath> although the funniest moment regarding estop was when a co-worker was demonstrating something to me and he said, "okay, time to run this"
[01:49:49] <toastydeath> and mistook the big red estop button for the glowing green "cycle start" button
[01:50:12] <toastydeath> later on that same day he turned the cnc off entirely after mistaking the "cnc off" switch for the "coolant off" switch
[01:50:18] <toastydeath> right in the middle of a cut
[01:50:33] <toastydeath> also ram or wire edm
[01:50:37] <toastydeath> they're expensive to run, so i hear
[01:50:58] <dmess> lol
[01:50:58] <dareposte> wires?
[01:51:03] <toastydeath> ?
[01:51:38] <toastydeath> you're looking at wire edms?
[01:52:05] <toastydeath> i would suggest hitting up practicalmachinist and asking how much the consumables cost
[01:52:25] <toastydeath> fluid/wire
[01:53:02] <dareposte> no i was just looking at turning centers
[01:53:05] <dareposte> but they all weigh too much
[01:53:23] <dareposte> then i saw a 12x15 edm that only weighed 700 lbs
[01:53:45] <dareposte> it was a sinker type
[01:54:11] <toastydeath> edms are slow and expensive to run, man
[01:57:29] <dareposte> yeah
[01:57:35] <dareposte> hard to justify
[01:57:42] <dareposte> maybe one of these instead: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=90-237-018
[01:58:24] <toastydeath> uh, what are you going to do with a high speed press other than take your fingers off accidentally
[01:58:27] <dareposte> lol
[01:58:36] <dareposte> the weight is an issue too
[01:58:45] <dareposte> still 10,000 lbs, it seems to be the magic number
[01:59:17] <dareposte> one of my friends is looking for a way to automate his armor plating business
[01:59:44] <toastydeath> then an obi is not what he is looking for
[01:59:53] <dareposte> its basically 18 gauge little stainless plates formed and with an attachment on the back side
[01:59:57] <toastydeath> oh
[02:00:05] <toastydeath> well then maybe that is exactly what he's looking for.
[02:00:05] <dareposte> some reenactment or something
[02:00:20] <dareposte> apparently its a decent business selling it though
[02:01:55] <dareposte> although that is probably overkill
[02:02:04] <dareposte> he could do a whole year of volume in a couple days on that thing
[02:02:41] <toastydeath> and for the low, low price of 150,000 dollars, you too can have a die to make your parts
[02:03:57] <dareposte> nah you can make dies pretty cheap
[02:03:59] <dareposte> for what he does
[02:04:07] <dareposte> just not the fancy progressive ones
[02:04:26] <toastydeath> hot
[02:04:38] <toastydeath> i have a co-worker who used to work on fancy diesets
[02:04:46] <dareposte> really
[02:04:49] <toastydeath> he showed me this one part, it was a thin little star washer
[02:04:54] <toastydeath> maybe 3/8ths in diameter
[02:05:04] <toastydeath> with a little sunburst pattern in the center
[02:05:19] <toastydeath> million dollar die back in the 1960's
[02:05:23] <dareposte> really
[02:05:26] <toastydeath> i almost peed myself
[02:05:27] <dareposte> they must be class 3 dies then
[02:05:38] <dareposte> the serious everything is perfect and will run forever type
[02:05:49] <toastydeath> yeah, that fits the description
[02:05:51] <toastydeath> of what he described
[02:06:11] <dareposte> that's what all the dies at work are too, for automotive stamping
[02:06:28] <dareposte> serious components
[02:06:38] <dareposte> but you can make or buy class 1 dies for way way cheaper
[02:07:00] <toastydeath> just give a file and a block of metal to a homeless guy
[02:07:03] <toastydeath> and tell him to get crackin'
[02:07:14] <dareposte> something like that
[02:07:39] <dareposte> if you have a piece of O1 or D2 tool steel and a manual mill, you can make an effective blanking die
[02:07:43] <dareposte> cnc makes it much easier
[02:08:26] <dareposte> in fact you don't even strictly need to machine it, you can get pre-hardened steel strips and just arrange them tinker-toy style on a cast iron base and get good results
[02:08:31] <dareposte> for about 10k units
[02:08:37] <dareposte> then it all goes to crap
[02:08:41] <toastydeath> lol
[02:09:01] <dareposte> but if all you need is 10k units, then great
[02:09:50] <dareposte> or if the volume works out such that you can just replace the die every 10k and still be profitable
[02:11:13] <dareposte> right now this guy just uses a manual hydraulic press with a class 1 die and it's working fine for him, but takes a long time
[02:11:21] <toastydeath> oh
[02:12:57] <dareposte> he actually cast the die bottom out of some non-ferrous metal
[02:13:03] <dareposte> the forming die
[02:13:11] <dareposte> pretty cool if you ask me
[02:13:22] <dareposte> i don't remember what it was called, but it was some special blend of zinc and aluminum
[02:13:39] <dareposte> which doesn't sound very strong at all, but apparently is
[02:15:12] <toastydeath> weird man
[02:15:33] <dareposte> kirksite
[02:16:25] <dareposte> way ot though
[02:20:06] <dareposte> $500 fork lift anybody? http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=21-203-001&searchtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50&currentPageIndex=4&searchNAP=true
[02:20:58] <dareposte> its probably really a good thing that I don't live anywhere near HGR
[02:26:36] <eric_unterhause1> yeah, except that when I go there it makes it a lot more expensive
[02:30:37] <eric_unterhause1> I wonder how bad a sandblasting cabinet can get
[02:30:44] <eric_unterhause1> last thing I need is more projects
[02:33:30] <eric_unterhause1> their prices aren't really that great on those
[02:49:01] <eric_unterhause1> toastydeath: I'm thinking about offloading some collets, is there a point to keeping more than 2 or 3 of any given size?
[02:53:19] <jmkasunich> the paint on the forklift is _way_ too new
[02:53:33] <eric_unterhause1> it seems to be on everything too
[02:53:39] <jmkasunich> yeah, forks and all
[02:53:45] <jmkasunich> hiding something
[02:53:57] <eric_unterhause1> maybe not, just hiding ugly
[02:54:23] <jmkasunich> who paints forks? first lift will scrape it off
[02:55:11] <eric_unterhause1> they come painted
[02:55:21] <jmkasunich> weird
[02:55:33] <jmkasunich> I've never seen a forklift with yellow forks before
[02:55:37] <eric_unterhause1> at work our pallet lifters still have paint
[02:55:46] <jmkasunich> pallet jacks, sure
[02:56:38] <jmkasunich> silly discussion anyway, I'm not in the market for a forklift
[02:56:49] <SWPadnos> hmmmmm
[02:57:02] <eric_unterhause1> I'd have to consider an offroad forklift
[02:57:55] <jmkasunich> Jeep forklifts ;-)
[02:58:01] <SWPadnos> hmmmmm
[02:58:04] <SWPadnos> :)
[02:58:11] <eric_unterhause1> they are backwards tractors
[02:58:39] <eric_unterhause1> I figured that a boom forklift would work offroad, but then I saw jon elson's web site
[02:59:19] <eric_unterhause1> but I rented one anyway because I'm lazy and it's a pain to put something in my basement with a regular forklift
[03:12:25] <eric_unterhause1> http://pico-systems.com/sheldon.html
[03:12:35] <eric_unterhause1> I think he should name that page "that sinking feeling"
[03:21:56] <DanielFalck> hi Patrice
[03:22:48] <DanielFalck> Patrice: now you are on irc :)
[03:23:28] <DanielFalck> Patrice is a friend of mine who is new to IRC. He has an emc2 controlled machine that does work to eyeglass lenses
[03:23:35] <Patrice> Okay, it is pretty straightforward, do not know what happened before
[03:23:49] <Patrice> Thank you Dan
[03:24:05] <DanielFalck> that video of the machine that you sent me, would it be possible to show it to others?
[03:24:16] <Patrice> Yes
[03:24:55] <DanielFalck> Patrice is using probing to check coordinates of the eyeglasses and then he does milling to the edges
[03:26:25] <DanielFalck> Patrice: so you want to send info to emc without operators having to enter anything in the control, right?
[03:27:20] <SWPadnos> ok, this was the question about doing an automatic circular probe on the list (saadp.fr or something)
[03:27:22] <Patrice> Some named parameters need to be updated at the beginning of the g-code
[03:27:29] <DanielFalck> SWPadnos: yes
[03:27:33] <Patrice> the rest is automated
[03:27:33] <SWPadnos> oh, saadp@free.fr
[03:28:24] <DanielFalck> Patrice gave me a tour of his factory- it's an amazing place. Prescriptions come in and are bar coded
[03:28:57] <DanielFalck> the frames and lenses move along on conveyor belts from machine to machine. I
[03:29:07] <DanielFalck> it is really interesting to watch
[03:29:29] <SWPadnos> heh. I was recently trying to convince my mother to use an internet eyeglass provider :)
[03:30:19] <DanielFalck> so, Patrice showed me a row of machines that use old DOS controls- I think he wants to replace them all with emc
[03:30:25] <SWPadnos> cool
[03:30:34] <DanielFalck> if he can get more automation going
[03:30:51] <DanielFalck> as in making the scanning more automated
[03:30:53] <SWPadnos> sure. that will probably require some customized hardware (mechanics)
[03:31:19] <DanielFalck> I think I convinced him to take apart one of the tracers to see how it worked :)
[03:31:28] <cradek> 2.3 has new probing codes that are fairly flexible - maybe you could build up what you want based on those
[03:32:12] <SWPadnos> I imagine a pizza-cutter style thing - you drag it around the edge and record (using halsampler or something) the deflection
[03:32:24] <DanielFalck> I think the jdi.py script might be enlightening for him also
[03:32:39] <cradek> so do you sample the frames directly and then cut the lens to match?
[03:32:43] <SWPadnos> unless probing will work - except that only uses straight moves
[03:32:46] <DanielFalck> SWPadnos: yes that's it
[03:33:21] <Patrice> we trace lenses or frames
[03:33:35] <SWPadnos> to what resolution?
[03:33:39] <cradek> so it always makes a pseudocircular path I imagine
[03:33:52] <Patrice> Yes, I should say patterns
[03:33:57] <SWPadnos> more of a round rect sometimes, I imagine
[03:33:58] <cradek> do you have analog feedback from the probe?
[03:34:02] <DanielFalck> cradek: it looked like a spring loaded stylis
[03:34:42] <DanielFalck> but , I might be wrong on how it applied pressure
[03:35:08] <SWPadnos> a spring makes sense if you have analog/encoder deflection feedback
[03:35:14] <cradek> can you trace and cut simultaneously? seems like maybe you could just make the machine follow.
[03:35:53] <Patrice> This is what we do, trace, save, then cut
[03:35:57] <cradek> think of the probe as a very precise joystick that drives the cutter around
[03:36:13] <cradek> no, I mean skip the digitize step
[03:36:14] <Patrice> It is using polar coordinates
[03:37:24] <Patrice> I want EMC2 to run my place :)
[03:37:34] <DanielFalck> me too :)
[03:38:21] <DanielFalck> cradek: so, what I saw was the frames come in a little plastic tote with a doctor's prescription
[03:38:43] <DanielFalck> the paper with the prescription had the prescription barcoded on it
[03:39:02] <DanielFalck> an operator placed the frame that was in the tote in the little tracer machine
[03:39:29] <DanielFalck> that somehow attached geometry to the job
[03:40:20] <DanielFalck> then the tote moved down the conveyor line to the grinding and edge cutting steps (from what I remember...)
[03:40:50] <cradek> ok, so you have to digitize, because the tasks are separate
[03:41:12] <Patrice> Yes, the output file has a bunch of couples (angle, radius)
[03:41:22] <cradek> I assume you have to offset the path too, for cutter compensation
[03:41:36] <SWPadnos> is there a difference in the grinding step depending onthe final shape/size of the lens (or frame)?
[03:41:43] <cradek> er no, you'd just have to shape the probe like the cutter
[03:41:46] <DanielFalck> I think that SWPadnos should come out and visit his brother in Beaverton and stop by and see Patrice
[03:41:48] <SWPadnos> cradek, use the right size wheel
[03:41:56] <SWPadnos> heh, sounds like a good idea :)
[03:42:02] <SWPadnos> then I can decuct the trip
[03:42:07] <cradek> yeah, it's obvious after 5 seconds of thought :-)
[03:42:08] <SWPadnos> err, I mean then it's all business
[03:42:51] <cradek> where are you Patrice?
[03:43:01] <SWPadnos> Portland, looks like
[03:43:06] <cradek> ah
[03:43:07] <DanielFalck> he has newborn twins in the back round too
[03:43:10] <Patrice> in portland, or
[03:43:35] <DanielFalck> the kids are keeping you busy :)
[03:43:48] <Patrice> Yes
[03:44:04] <eric_unterhause1> wow, I thought all the optics manufacturing went overseas
[03:44:17] <DanielFalck> we are overseas from France
[03:44:38] <DanielFalck> it's a French based company
[03:44:48] <eric_unterhause1> funny
[03:44:54] <Patrice> Yes
[03:45:27] <maddash> on average, how fast is a high steprate?
[03:45:34] <maddash> 12000Hz?
[03:45:43] <cradek> on average, how long is a stick?
[03:46:03] <maddash> argh
[03:46:11] <cradek> you could look up the max step rate input of a driver you're interested in
[03:46:17] <maddash> reasonably high**
[03:46:54] <cradek> depends on optos and other fiddly stuff - they are all different
[03:47:18] <SWPadnos> a PC can, for the most part, generate 25-35 kHz easily
[03:47:24] <maddash> ok, what's the fastest steprate you've seen?
[03:47:41] <SWPadnos> from the control, input limit on a drive, what?
[03:47:50] <SWPadnos> from a motor ...
[03:47:51] <cradek> softare generated? hardware generated?
[03:47:52] <maddash> SWPadnos: noooo -- my dual core fancy schmancy can only get to 12kHz
[03:48:05] <cradek> ok now we're getting to the real question
[03:48:06] <SWPadnos> then you need to reconfigure it
[03:48:07] <maddash> cradek: both
[03:48:55] <SWPadnos> multiple MHz hardware generated
[03:48:59] <maddash> well, obviously hardware is far more capable at step generation
[03:49:11] <SWPadnos> around 60 kHz software generated, I think
[03:49:13] <maddash> yeesh...
[03:49:15] <cradek> http://pico-systems.com/univstep.html
[03:49:36] <SWPadnos> 12.5 kHz is terrible, just so you know
[03:49:40] <cradek> this does 300kHz
[03:49:53] <SWPadnos> if you're not using doublestep, you should be
[03:50:14] <SWPadnos> 12.5 kHz is a 40 uS base period, non-doublestep
[03:50:36] <maddash> yep.
[03:50:38] <SWPadnos> if you have a computer that can't handle better than 40 uS, then you should get a better PC (for this purpose)
[03:50:46] <SWPadnos> or get hardware
[03:51:06] <cradek> unless 12.5 is good enough for your application
[03:51:18] <maddash> well, technically, I start seeing realtime delay notices @ <40us
[03:51:18] <SWPadnos> heh, yeah
[03:51:29] <SWPadnos> my assumption is that it isn't, or we wouldn't be getting this question
[03:51:39] <cradek> SWPadnos: you know what they say about assuming
[03:51:47] <SWPadnos> yeah, very well :)
[03:52:08] <maddash> argh it makes no sense
[03:52:09] <cradek> looks like the actual question is how to fix the realtime delay notice at <40
[03:52:24] <cradek> what video card and driver?
[03:52:45] <maddash> video card is some random ati rage pro
[03:52:59] <maddash> 'driver'?
[03:53:05] <SWPadnos> X driver
[03:53:12] <SWPadnos> for the video card
[03:53:18] <cradek> also have you checked bios for power management stuff you can turn off?
[03:54:05] <maddash> yes
[03:54:25] <maddash> acpi -- disabled ; usb controller -- disbaled
[03:55:22] <maddash> note on the cpu: it's one of the early pentium d models. supposed to be dual core, but I can only see one core unless I enable hyperthreading
[03:55:35] <maddash> in which case I see only two cpus. and I have isolcpus=0
[03:55:37] <SWPadnos> hyperthreading is bad, turn it off
[03:56:41] <maddash> can't , see above. in fact, it's even slower when I turn it off.
[03:56:59] <SWPadnos> what SMP+RTAI kernel are you using?
[03:57:18] <SWPadnos> (more assumptions here, that you're using SMP, or you wouldn't ever see multiple CPUs)
[03:57:21] <maddash> kernel 3.6-cv
[03:57:25] <maddash> yup
[03:57:30] <SWPadnos> which you built yourself?
[03:58:45] <maddash> yes.
[03:58:59] <SWPadnos> and if I remember correctly, you're on Debian rather than Ubuntu
[03:59:04] <maddash> is this the point where you tell me to buzz off?
[03:59:20] <SWPadnos> no, I'd suggest installing our kernel to see if it behaves better
[03:59:31] <SWPadnos> if it does, *then* I'd tell you to buzz off :)
[03:59:33] <cradek> you could just boot the cd and do the test
[03:59:48] <SWPadnos> yes, that would be the easiest thing to do, wouldn't it :)
[04:00:14] <cradek> it'll show one CPU and not do HT
[04:00:43] <SWPadnos> well, HT should be disabled in the BIOS
[04:00:44] <maddash> so try the emc live cd?
[04:00:45] <SWPadnos> if possible
[04:00:47] <SWPadnos> yes
[04:01:12] <maddash> and what about the HT thing -- isn't it weird that I can't see the second cpu without HT?
[04:01:16] <cradek> yeah, just run it live and see if it's better - if so you know you can probably improve it with kernel and/or rtai settings
[04:01:34] <cradek> not really - many of those were HT only, not really two entire cores
[04:02:04] <SWPadnos> maddash, maybe, maybe not. the CPU is probably single-core + HT, which is dual-core in marketing-speak
[04:02:13] <maddash> fuck.
[04:02:29] <maddash> that's just lame.
[04:02:43] <cradek> yeah
[04:02:49] <maddash> but isn't HT simply the capability to truly execute 2 threads simuultaneously?
[04:02:57] <cradek> I think the Ds had a tiny tiny cache too
[04:03:02] <maddash> wouldn't that speed things up?
[04:03:15] <cradek> speed up != better latency
[04:03:28] <cradek> you've got conflicting goals unfortunately
[04:03:58] <maddash> but I get much better numbers on the /usr/realtime/testsuite/kern/latency test
[04:04:06] <maddash> with HT rather than without
[04:04:13] <cradek> interesting
[04:04:22] <SWPadnos> yeah, interesting
[04:04:32] <SWPadnos> with isolcpus?
[04:08:12] <maddash> yes
[04:08:14] <maddash> isolcpus=1
[04:08:17] <maddash> erm 0*
[04:08:29] <maddash> gives some crazy segfault when set to 1
[04:08:46] <SWPadnos> if you only have 1 CPU, then 1 is invalid
[04:08:51] <SWPadnos> though it shouldn't segfault
[04:09:02] <maddash> hm, you're right
[04:09:36] <maddash> riiiight. I remember better now -- I switched away from isolcpus=1 *before* I re-enabled HT.
[04:10:24] <SWPadnos> hmmm. I wonder if it's any better to use CPU0 rather than CPU<N> for RTAI
[04:10:42] <SWPadnos> since it needs fast response to interrupts
[04:11:02] <SWPadnos> (which are normally vectored to the first CPU, though that can be changed)
[04:12:11] <maddash> i'll have access to the machine again on friday -- then I'll post some numbers for you guys
[04:12:47] <SWPadnos> cool. feel free to debunk my statement that HT is bad - that's all I've heard about it
[04:12:54] <JymmmEMC> didn't jepler or someone say that if you have a dual box that putting "some" load on the other cpu increased perforamnce
[04:13:01] <SWPadnos> that was me
[04:13:13] <SWPadnos> and it's only been confirmed on core2 CPUs
[04:13:29] <SWPadnos> I don't think the Atom exhibited that, and no AMD chip I know of has either
[04:13:48] <JymmmEMC> Well, I aint pulling out the HT box to test, it's WAY TOO LOUD
[04:13:54] <SWPadnos> OK THEN
[04:14:02] <JymmmEMC> dual xeon
[04:14:08] <maddash> shhhh it's bedtime
[04:16:46] <SWPadnos> oh. so it is. night all
[04:17:22] <JymmmEMC> Has there been any talk about adding USB to EMC by chance?
[04:18:57] <DanielFalck> sorry JymmmEMC, we all live in our parent's basements and haven't heard of usb yet :)
[04:19:07] <JymmmEMC> lol
[04:20:21] <JymmmEMC> Well, I'd still prefer ethernet, but can't get SWPadnos to even consider it
[04:20:30] <SWPadnos> I also prefer ethernet
[04:20:36] <SWPadnos> USB is a dead end
[04:20:47] <SWPadnos> (nyah - I haven't gone to bed yet)
[04:21:40] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Wouldn't offloaded ethernet to I/O module do better than trying to do everything on a low latency mobo?
[04:21:56] <SWPadnos> sure
[04:22:16] <SWPadnos> conceptually, offloading all very high speed I/O is better than having the PC CPU respinsible for it
[04:22:25] <SWPadnos> or responsible
[04:22:49] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: should a off the shelf gigabit switch be able to deal with it?
[04:23:09] <SWPadnos> the less tightly coupled the I/O becomes from the trajectory planner, the more things stop working, or the more features you have to stop using
[04:23:12] <JymmmEMC> I know we talked about a hub, but tare
[04:23:39] <JymmmEMC> couldn't a calibration cycle be performed?
[04:23:51] <JymmmEMC> rare
[04:23:57] <SWPadnos> switches introduce effectively random lags, but there are a lot that can do wire-speed switching
[04:24:10] <SWPadnos> dunno how the lags would compare
[04:24:36] <JymmmEMC> right, which I was suggesting a calibration cycle to determine that
[04:24:57] <SWPadnos> you can't calibrate random
[04:25:26] <SWPadnos> it's random dependent on other switch traffic, not "a different constant for each switch"
[04:29:58] <JymmmEMC> if it can be done on a paraport, why not ethernet swtich?
[04:30:29] <SWPadnos> it's not impossible, especially when you're talking about sending data at the servo rate, not a really fast step interrupt rate
[04:31:09] <maddash> is that an fpga on the pico universal stepper?
[04:31:18] <SWPadnos> yes
[04:31:59] <SWPadnos> there's a serial EEPROM onthe board - the FPGA isn't "easily reprogrammable"
[04:32:31] <SWPadnos> which is good, if you want the thing to be active as soon as it's powered on, but bad if you want to change the config
[04:34:05] <SWPadnos> ok, bedtime now. night
[09:20:08] <fenn_> fenn_ is now known as fenn
[09:20:32] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[09:35:45] <pjm_> good morning
[09:38:57] <micges> good morning
[11:08:01] <pjm_> btw, is anyone else playing with spindle sync'd motion, for stuff like rigid tapping? My mill works fine if I tap say a M3 thread but if I go to something like M6, at the start of the tapping cycle, I can hear the Z axis motor speed PLL'ing to get to the right Z speed for the spindle speed, is that right / normal?
[11:10:49] <alex_joni> what do you mean by PLL'ing?
[11:11:35] <pjm_> um similar to how a phase locked loop locks up on an oscillator, dunno how to describe it in mechanical terms
[11:12:07] <pjm_> but i can hear the Z motor speed ramp up/down in shorter and shorter cycles until the speed is smooth
[11:12:17] <pjm_> if that makes sense
[11:12:45] <pjm_> i checked the quadrature input right thru to the parport input pins, and its a clean square wave
[11:12:55] <pjm_> this is from the 360ppr spindle encoder
[11:15:13] <alex_joni> pjm_: a halscope trace on the Z velocity would help
[11:15:47] <pjm_> ah good idea
[11:16:07] <pjm_> ok i'll do that, Z velocity and perhaps spindle velocity on the same graph
[11:16:37] <pjm_> once the Z and spindle are in sync then it seems to work perfectly, its just the starting up bit that might be a problem
[11:16:44] <pjm_> but i will do that, thanks for the pointer ;-)
[11:18:46] <alex_joni> starting from that, it might be interesting to look at other thingies too
[11:18:53] <alex_joni> like encoder position, index, etc
[11:21:48] <pjm_> sure, i can do that. I've noticed a shortcoming with my parport for the spindle speed measurement, it seems i cant reliably clock more than about 6KHz into the ports, I really need to get one of the 7i43 cards
[11:54:24] <pjm_> archivist , when is the next UK 'engineering' sort of show / exhibition etc?
[11:58:40] <skunkworks> pjm: http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/servostart/Fastermouse.png
[11:59:08] <skunkworks> that is a tranistion about every 25us
[11:59:17] <pjm_> wow 51KHz! amazing
[11:59:29] <pjm_> presumably not with a parport?
[11:59:39] <skunkworks> thru the parallel port - 1ghz pent III
[11:59:50] <pjm_> staggering!
[12:00:32] <skunkworks> and that was mouse guts
[12:00:50] <alex_joni> pjm_: 6kHz seems awfully slow
[12:00:59] <pjm_> yeah that is what I'm thinking...
[12:01:17] <pjm_> i ran the latency test over night and it was stable at 15716
[12:01:39] <pjm_> that was with glxgears, and www pointing at an auto refreshing mrtg page
[12:08:37] <pjm_> i must have some error in my config, the max sample speed in halscope is 16.1KHz
[12:14:07] <pjm_> ahh i'm wondering if I tweaked the base period since i moved EMC to this faster box! that could be it perhaps. Old was 633MHz P3, new is 2.4GHz P4
[12:55:06] <skunkworks_> logger_emc: bookmark
[12:55:06] <skunkworks_> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2009-03-25.txt
[12:56:50] <pjm_> i've fixed the problem! thanks for the pointers. I'd copied over the old config from the slow PC to the new one
[12:57:06] <pjm_> I've updated the base_period and can now sample at 34KHz or so
[12:59:08] <skunkworks_> sweet :)
[12:59:26] <skunkworks_> how many rpm is that?
[13:01:04] <pjm_> hehh i didnt crank it up fully, let me have a quick go
[13:01:36] <pjm_> although I'm not sure my base period is optimised becase initially I set it to 20000 but EMC reported a RTAI error on start up
[13:01:37] <alex_joni> holy crap: http://www.fanucrobotics.com/file-repository/DataSheets/Robots/M-2000iA-Series.pdf
[13:03:05] <Optic> that's not a small robot
[13:04:58] <Optic> look at the "repeatability" spec
[13:05:02] <Optic> holy crap
[13:07:06] <alex_joni> Optic: 1200kg payload
[13:07:27] <alex_joni> ~ 2600 lbs
[13:08:17] <pjm_> skunkworks its working nicely with a 10KHz input now, i.e. about 1550rpm or so
[13:08:20] <SWPadnos> so it could mill things by moving a Bridgeport around :)
[13:10:01] <Optic> alex: 0.3mm repeatability
[13:10:03] <SWPadnos> pjm_, isn't that encoder 360 CPR = 1440 PPR (in quadrature)?
[13:10:17] <pjm_> it is yeah
[13:10:44] <SWPadnos> ok, so that's pretty fast actually, you need 37200 Hz sampling at absolute minimum
[13:10:54] <SWPadnos> (at 1550 RPM)
[13:11:01] <pjm_> so i tried setting my base period to 20000 given that the max latency was about 16000, would you say that is too near the knuckle?
[13:11:12] <pjm_> but at 20000 it errored wiht the RTAI stuff
[13:11:22] <SWPadnos> yeah, that's a bit close
[13:11:39] <pjm_> ok i have BASE_PERIOD = 27500 at the moment
[13:11:43] <pjm_> and it seems ok
[13:12:00] <pjm_> but yeah i probably need to think about moving to a 7i43 card for the spindle encoder
[13:12:39] <SWPadnos> might as well do all stepping/PWM/encoder I/O on it, and get rid of the base period entirely
[13:13:02] <pjm_> yeah thats probably a good idea, i can get rid of some of my parports then
[13:13:06] <SWPadnos> heh
[13:13:17] <SWPadnos> get a 5i20, it has 72 I/Os ;)
[13:13:20] <pjm_> there is 5 ports currently, so i could drop a couple of them
[13:13:32] <alex_joni> 5 ports?
[13:13:35] <SWPadnos> and doesn't take up a parallel port, so you could still use one of those
[13:13:38] <alex_joni> whee.. can you take some pics?
[13:13:44] <pjm_> hahh sure
[13:13:49] <alex_joni> pjm_: sounds fun
[13:13:50] <SWPadnos> wow. a 5i20 should be less expensive than 4 plug-in ports :)
[13:14:00] <pjm_> they were all ebay c**p
[13:14:02] <pjm_> so cheap
[13:14:02] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: not if they're doubles
[13:14:07] <alex_joni> 20$ for 2 ports
[13:14:11] <pjm_> yeah 2 of them are dual port cards
[13:14:38] <alex_joni> so 40$ for 4 ports + the mobo one free :D
[13:15:32] <SWPadnos> close enough :)
[13:16:17] <SWPadnos> hmm. looks like I need to restart Mozilla. it decided to stop getting emails automatically
[13:16:21] <SWPadnos> bbiab
[13:17:59] <pjm_> ok so a question on base period, of course i've used the latency test tool, but is there a precise way to set up the base period so I can get it as fast as possible?
[13:18:24] <pjm_> i've set all the PCI latency stuff in the bios down to minimum to try to reduce everything where possible
[13:21:09] <alex_joni> pjm_: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TroubleShooting#Unexpected_realtime_delay_check_dmesg_for_details
[13:21:38] <pjm_> ah yes dmesg, of course, sorry for the silly questions, I obviously have brain fade today
[13:21:50] <pjm_> i've had my head in reports for work since monday
[13:21:58] <Optic> we made some nice cuts out of acrylic last night
[13:22:18] <alex_joni> pjm_: I pasted that page for possible causes which might cause high latency
[13:22:29] <alex_joni> but usually it really depends on your luck with the PC
[13:22:42] <alex_joni> some PIII's a re very good with latency
[13:22:52] <alex_joni> I had good experience with some older Athlon's
[13:23:12] <alex_joni> some recent Core2Duo's can be very good, but they can also be very bad
[13:25:44] <Optic> we cut some 1/4" and 1/8" material with good success
[13:27:16] <pjm_> alex_joni would you be able to cast your eye over http://pjm.dyndns.org/dmesg.txt and offer some words of wisdom?
[13:27:30] <pjm_> its only the last few lines from the current session, not the whole thing!
[13:29:36] <Optic> what is the unit for "feed rate"?
[13:29:50] <Optic> in gcode
[13:30:14] <pjm_> units per minute i think
[13:30:20] <Optic> ahh yes
[13:30:25] <Optic> ok, i was thinking units per second
[13:30:28] <toastatwork> units per minute, units per revolution, or inverse time
[13:30:31] <Optic> but that would be totally wrong :)
[13:30:34] <toastatwork> are the three modes
[13:30:39] <toastatwork> most machines start up in units/minute
[13:47:57] <alex_joni> pjm_: not much I can understand from that..
[13:48:36] <pjm_> ok, thanks for looking tho. I found an S3 video card that I'll try in the box first, see if that makes any improvements
[13:54:21] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: hey biotch
[13:54:49] <alex_joni> 'lo
[13:55:22] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: What would you suggest to have/use as a kiosk system with tools that need to access/use system utilities?
[13:55:40] <alex_joni> define system utilities
[13:56:02] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: as basic as dd, fdisk, mkfs, etc
[13:56:11] <JymmmEMC> but mostyl dd
[13:57:06] <JymmmEMC> maybe html for documentaton, but not only web
[13:57:42] <alex_joni> the kiosk system I've seen usually had only a touchscreen as the interface
[13:57:54] <alex_joni> and you could open a virtual keyboard for typing
[13:58:48] <JymmmEMC> Well, the cost of a laptop these days is < $500, the cost of a overlayed touchscreen is $200. I was considering using a rotary encoder for the IO
[13:59:04] <alex_joni> a regular PC is 200
[13:59:28] <JymmmEMC> with a laptop, I can just remount/relocate the LCD itself
[13:59:43] <alex_joni> too much work
[14:00:14] <JymmmEMC> Rotary encoder http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/powermate/
[14:00:36] <JymmmEMC> Not really, if this works, could do production.
[14:01:02] <JymmmEMC> a standard 15" LCD still isn't as cheap as some laptops that I've seen for $300
[14:02:42] <JymmmEMC> The only difficult part I see is the cable between the main board and the LCD itself, as they are usually flex PCB that would need to be extended in length.
[14:04:43] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: But nothing a razor blade and soldering iron couldn't fix =)
[14:05:02] <jdhNC> 17" lcd's are $90-115
[14:06:13] <SWPadnos> razor blade and soldering iron on flex cable. good luck :)
[14:07:06] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Tehen, what would you suggest?
[14:07:32] <SWPadnos> get an industrial monitor and mount it the way it's supposed to be mounted
[14:08:01] <JymmmEMC> too costly
[14:08:02] <jdhNC> off-the-shelf 15" touchscreens can be had for <$400, 17's aren't much more
[14:08:19] <JymmmEMC> I can get a whole laptop for $299
[14:08:35] <SWPadnos> if this kiosk is intended to be touched by "the public", then you will be replacing laptop screens every week or two
[14:08:38] <JymmmEMC> unless of course you are offering your credit card number
[14:09:03] <jdhNC> cheap is often very expensive
[14:09:18] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Nothing 3/8" plexiglass can't resolve
[14:09:27] <SWPadnos> as long as you don't need touch, sure
[14:09:37] <JymmmEMC> I can't afford it
[14:09:45] <JymmmEMC> thus the rotary encoder for IO
[14:10:05] <SWPadnos> ah
[14:10:25] <JymmmEMC> Think the old arcade games where you entered in your initials
[14:10:50] <JymmmEMC> simple iface that anyone can intitively use
[14:11:03] <JymmmEMC> intuitively
[14:11:04] <SWPadnos> oh, sure. you're using the Tempest interface :)
[14:11:09] <JymmmEMC> exactly
[15:05:15] <toastatw1rk> toastatw1rk is now known as toastatwork
[15:30:06] <skunkworks_> alex_joni: are you still using chrome?
[15:33:31] <alex_joni> yup
[15:33:36] <alex_joni> switched to beta
[15:33:49] <alex_joni> skunkworks_: no real issues with it
[15:36:27] <alex_joni> skunkworks_: why?
[15:41:49] <skunkworks_> just saw a reference to it today and wondered how you liked it.
[15:43:06] <alex_joni> it was released a while ago (the stable 1.0.x version), which I ran for ~ half a year
[15:43:24] <alex_joni> it has some annoyances (features missing), that's why I switched to the new beta
[15:44:12] <alex_joni> in paralel there's chromium which is the OSS version of chrome (not that you can't get the source for chrome), which has an unstable tree - a bit too shaky for me
[15:46:50] <skunkworks_> heh
[15:50:25] <skunkworks_> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DIY-CNC/message/27351
[15:50:33] <skunkworks_> quite spirited
[15:52:05] <eric_unterhause1> does mach really run at ring 0?
[15:52:05] <SWPadnos> huh. can't seem to access that without signing up
[15:52:17] <skunkworks_> aww - sorry.
[15:52:22] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: that's true for any yahoo group
[15:52:30] <skunkworks_> some are open though
[15:52:37] <SWPadnos> I have a Yahoo account, I'm just not signed up for that list
[15:52:40] <alex_joni> very few
[15:53:00] <eric_unterhause1> I don't know why a group wouldn't make messages available though, that is an option
[15:53:00] <alex_joni> anyways.. it's not a topic I want to read without screaming FUD every second other email
[15:53:02] <SWPadnos> eric_unterhause1, yes, there's a kernel driver they use
[15:53:11] <alex_joni> eric_unterhause1: to cause more people to sign up
[15:53:16] <skunkworks_> heh
[15:53:27] <alex_joni> eric_unterhause1: and then show off how many subscribers they have
[15:53:59] <alex_joni> ROFL
[15:54:16] <alex_joni> "Mach3 doesn't attempt such tight control of the hardware. Servo loops
[15:54:16] <alex_joni> are not done within Mach since
[15:54:17] <alex_joni> Windows is simply not that responsive."
[15:54:31] <alex_joni> so you can easily do step pulse generating, but doing closed loop is hard
[15:54:42] <skunkworks_> clueless
[15:55:02] <eric_unterhause1> i got 6 words, "closed loop control" "feed rate override"
[15:55:27] <skunkworks_> the whole break a bit - jog away - fix bit and start again is a big hangup for people.
[15:55:34] <skunkworks_> or a couple of people it seems
[15:56:40] <eric_unterhause1> John S. must be John Stevenson?
[15:57:34] <eric_unterhause1> duh, says so on the right of the interface
[15:57:37] <alex_joni> dunno, but he's full of sh*t
[16:03:35] <cradek> http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1377336&group_id=6744&atid=106744
[16:03:53] <cradek> before 2005 we had the same FO>100% bug
[16:04:42] <skunkworks_> wow - you have fixed a lot of bugs - nice work!
[16:05:26] <cradek> :-)
[16:07:51] <eric_unterhause1> Mach certainly has gotten a lot of people started in cnc that otherwise wouldn't have done anything
[16:08:38] <eric_unterhause1> I think the screen designer argument is a red herring
[16:08:46] <eric_unterhause1> people don't want to have to make linux work
[16:09:06] <skunkworks_> but they don't have to.. that is the problem
[16:09:22] <eric_unterhause1> didn't say that was a real problem, just fud
[16:09:31] <eric_unterhause1> fud works, ask IBM
[16:09:32] <JymmmEMC> Ppl use what's familure to them.
[16:09:39] <SWPadnos> people don't understand that Linux (with GUI) and Windows are almost the same, and they're scared of "that thing they don't know"
[16:10:07] <JymmmEMC> nix has a huge learning curve all on it's own.
[16:10:14] <SWPadnos> at the same time, they don't realize that they know very little (on average) about Windows also, but at least they're used to it
[16:10:18] <SWPadnos> no, it doesn't
[16:10:20] <eric_unterhause1> mach has the same latency problem as emc, they just don't admit it to you
[16:10:30] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Yes, it does.
[16:10:33] <SWPadnos> you can *use* it just as easily as you can *use* Windows
[16:10:49] <SWPadnos> there is a learning curve for *administration* though
[16:10:56] <SWPadnos> which most people don't know how to do on Windows either
[16:10:58] <eric_unterhause1> I had a really nasty problem on windows, found out the solution on a linux forum
[16:11:03] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: To an end-user it's all the same.
[16:11:11] <SWPadnos> I disagree :)
[16:11:26] <SWPadnos> unless you're saying that for an end user, Linux and Windows are about the same :)
[16:12:06] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Ok, add a printer to nix compared to M$
[16:12:14] <SWPadnos> local or remote?
[16:12:20] <eric_unterhause1> actually, I did recently
[16:12:28] <eric_unterhause1> it's easier on linux most of the time now
[16:12:37] <JymmmEMC> doens't matter. same goes with a usb device
[16:12:43] <eric_unterhause1> I had to hack my wife's computer for a while to get it to work
[16:12:44] <alex_joni> I installed ubuntu and passed it on to a nephew of mine (aged 8)
[16:12:50] <alex_joni> he had no issues in using the computer
[16:13:30] <eric_unterhause1> ask my wife how easy it is to get a printer working on windows, she was trying to talk her mother through it on the phone and was close to crying/screaming
[16:13:50] <alex_joni> eric_unterhause1: actually it's pretty simple (at least for me)
[16:13:59] <eric_unterhause1> what?
[16:14:01] <alex_joni> navigate to the samba computer, in view network computers
[16:14:09] <alex_joni> double click the printer, and it's installed
[16:14:31] <alex_joni> that assumes samba and cups are properly set up, and fed with the proper drivers
[16:14:33] <eric_unterhause1> I think you are agreeing with me?
[16:14:47] <eric_unterhause1> my wife's computer was windows xp, required some hacking and restarting
[16:15:04] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, on Linux, it's either trivial or very hard to install hardware
[16:15:07] <alex_joni> I mean the win part to install a printer is pretty easy (if the printer is installed on a linux box/server)
[16:15:18] <eric_unterhause1> printer is on a windows pc
[16:15:23] <SWPadnos> on Windows, it's can run the range from easy to hard
[16:15:30] <SWPadnos> but it's almost never trivial
[16:15:39] <eric_unterhause1> there was some problem with workgroups that ubuntu had no problem with, bill gates couldn't handle it
[16:15:52] <JymmmEMC> Consider a brand new AIO printer attached to a nix box.
[16:15:58] <SWPadnos> even for a mouse, I recently had problems that I couldn't resolve on Windows (though I should see if it works now that I rebooted)
[16:16:32] <SWPadnos> on Linux, I haven't had a problem with a single USB input device in the last year or two
[16:16:55] <eric_unterhause1> even my wireless was plug and play on my new ubuntu box
[16:16:58] <SWPadnos> on Windows, I might get basic 2-axis/3 buttons/scroll wheel functionality, I might not
[16:17:11] <SWPadnos> and extra buttons just don't work at all until I install drivers
[16:17:26] <piasdom> they're making linux easier nowadays,not too long ago, that wasn't true
[16:17:32] <SWPadnos> same mouse plugged into any recent Ubuntu machine works perfectly every time
[16:17:51] <SWPadnos> I agree, there have been great strides in usability in the last few years
[16:18:47] <piasdom> still i have "NO" how to install a program if it doesn't use apt or synaptic
[16:18:55] <JymmmEMC> sure, but still not there. even wifi is still an issue much of the time
[16:19:33] <SWPadnos> hasn't been for me, except with one brand of USB->wifi adapter in Germany
[16:19:58] <skunkworks_> piasdom: sure - but would you be able to install a program on windows if it didn't have an installer?
[16:20:19] <piasdom> i prefer win(don't throw anything) because it has a follow-the-pic(icon) format..in linux, you really need to know what you're doing
[16:20:29] <eric_unterhause1> try installing a driver without an installer, it can be an all day affair
[16:20:30] <piasdom> true
[16:20:31] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks name a program that doesn't have an installer ?
[16:20:45] <JymmmEMC> on M$ that is
[16:21:00] <JymmmEMC> other than unzipping and running
[16:21:06] <SWPadnos> well, there are a few you can just download and run, like putty :)
[16:21:12] <eric_unterhause1> visual studio has a nice packager nowadays
[16:21:22] <SWPadnos> this misses the point though
[16:21:45] <skunkworks_> anything that is source code only...
[16:21:52] <eric_unterhause1> how do you figure out what programs a .deb has installed?
[16:21:57] <SWPadnos> which is that for day to day tasks, especially on a machine that will be more or less dedicated as a CNC controller, neither OS is much better or worse than the other
[16:22:20] <SWPadnos> eric_unterhause1, you can go to Synaptic and click on the "Installed files" list in Package Properties
[16:22:26] <eric_unterhause1> keeping a windows machine from getting crufted up and slowed down is nearly impossible
[16:22:30] <alex_joni> eric_unterhause1: dpkg -L foo
[16:22:40] <eric_unterhause1> thanks
[16:22:48] <alex_joni> or you use mc, and hit enter on the deb
[16:22:56] <alex_joni> it's basicly a tar.gz archive
[16:23:01] <eric_unterhause1> aiiiiiieeee, no mc :)
[16:23:02] <SWPadnos> on Ubuntu, if you try to run a program which is part of a package, you will be notified of the package to install (in a terminal anyway)
[16:23:22] <alex_joni> eric_unterhause1: why not?
[16:23:27] <SWPadnos> alex_joni, will mc show you the permissions of the files?
[16:23:34] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: I think so
[16:23:38] <alex_joni> let me check
[16:23:51] <skunkworks_> That is the otherthing.. Unless you do it often - when you get infected by a virus - you're most likely stuck until someone can fix it.
[16:23:54] <SWPadnos> synaptic doesn't, so you can't really tell what's executable except by the location (like /usr/bin...)
[16:24:13] <skunkworks_> or re-install the os
[16:24:17] <alex_joni> yes it does
[16:24:27] <eric_unterhause1> turns out I'm smart enough to do that myself
[16:24:39] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: yes it does
[16:24:40] <SWPadnos> ok, cool
[16:25:35] <skunkworks_> I am actually a windows person.. I really only use linux for emc, and somethimes eagle)
[16:26:24] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: http://imagebin.org/42859
[16:26:38] <eric_unterhause1> I gave up on windows
[16:27:37] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: you can also see links, and where they point, etc
[16:29:51] <SWPadnos> ok.
[16:30:11] <SWPadnos> even that isn't a perfect method, since the post-install scripts could compile/install/chmod things later
[16:30:48] <alex_joni> you can view those
[16:31:47] <SWPadnos> sure, but it's not an easy way - you have to know what scripts do and stuff
[16:32:29] <Optic> giant fanuc robot: want
[16:33:53] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: right.. although it's probably not very common that postinst & co will change that
[16:34:06] <SWPadnos> true enough
[17:57:17] <skunkworks_> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DIY-CNC/message/27400
[17:57:23] <skunkworks_> wait - is this true?
[17:57:30] <skunkworks_> did I miss something?
[17:58:36] <cradek> Don't have a Yahoo! ID?
[17:58:36] <cradek> Signing up is easy.
[17:58:43] <jepler> skunkworks_: can't view without logging in .. maybe you could pastebin whatever it is you think is interesting
[17:58:44] <skunkworks_> I just thought the rfl was 'fixed' to make it easier to start in the middle.
[17:58:49] <skunkworks_> hold on
[17:58:50] <SWPadnos> I don't think it's true. he's probably talking about imprvements in run from line
[17:59:19] <cradek> oh god, is there another forum to watch now?
[17:59:27] <skunkworks_> http://pastebin.ca/1371882
[17:59:52] <jepler> well that guy can just suck on a log for all I care
[18:00:00] <SWPadnos> and don't forget the Mach forums, where misinformation about EMC can just go unchecked
[18:00:01] <jepler> he doesn't want answers from programmers -- that's fine, because I don't want questions from him
[18:00:04] <jepler> moving along
[18:00:09] <skunkworks_> heh
[18:00:20] <cradek> you mean the "geek squad"?
[18:00:27] <SWPadnos> "Nerd Herd" :)
[18:00:45] <cradek> i.e. the people who make the software available to him for free?
[18:00:56] <cncjerry> i have my cnc system running on a p3 old ATX box, I think it is a 2.8ghz with 2gb memory. do you guys know of a good cpu/motherboard that wold be cheap and a step-up from this ?
[18:01:10] <SWPadnos> I am curious as to just who JS's friend was
[18:01:28] <cradek> cncjerry: I don't think there is such a thing as a P3 above about 1GHz, so you must not know what you have there
[18:01:35] <SWPadnos> who asked for help and was told that he should know what he's doing by us several times
[18:01:47] <SWPadnos> cradek, I think they went to 1.4 GHz or so
[18:01:53] <jepler> SWPadnos: to be fair, that's often the summary of jmkasunich's advice
[18:01:58] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:02:01] <skunkworks_> :)
[18:02:02] <cradek> oh, I missed "Answers from users only, not programmers", hahaha
[18:02:05] <SWPadnos> he's not here, so he's the asshole
[18:02:20] <cradek> SWPadnos: oh, ok
[18:02:28] <SWPadnos> I think - not absolutely sure about that
[18:02:42] <skunkworks_> I got yelled at from jmkasunich... and I came back. (for good or bad)
[18:03:00] <cradek> cncjerry: I think anything around 2.8GHz is so fast that you won't notice any difference by using any newer machine
[18:03:24] <SWPadnos> oh hey - I was right :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_III
[18:03:41] <skunkworks_> a nice p4 -2.8ghz usually runs emc quite nice.
[18:03:54] <cradek> yeah
[18:04:00] <Optic> we have an atom 1.6 board doing a great job with emc
[18:04:01] <cncjerry> that is what I was thinking but the problem with the m-board on that system is it only supports two ddr2 slots max 2gb of memory. I haven't tried the denser chips in it
[18:04:05] <Optic> $100!
[18:04:17] <Optic> including CPU :)
[18:04:19] <cradek> cncjerry: there is no point to having more than 1GB of RAM on an EMC machine
[18:04:23] <SWPadnos> 2GB should be about 4x what you need
[18:04:46] <cradek> model name: AMD Athlon(tm) XP 1800+
[18:04:47] <cncjerry> I use the machine for CATIA occasionally, not much recently
[18:04:53] <JymmmEMC> You'll never need more than 512KB of ram
[18:04:55] <cradek> this is what's running my lathe. It is perfectly fast
[18:05:22] <cradek> it has 768 MB of RAM which is more than it ever uses, like JymmmEMC says
[18:05:34] <cncjerry> I bought one of thos amd deskside systems with a 1800 I think for $500 fully configured with monitor for my son, that thing screams
[18:05:40] <JymmmEMC> cradek: Sorry, I was quoting Bill Gates
[18:05:55] <cradek> haha, I read that as 512MB
[18:05:56] <alex_joni> I was using my Athlon XP 1600+ with 256M ram until last year
[18:06:02] <alex_joni> it got an upgrade to 512
[18:06:09] <jepler> bill gates never said that, and anyway it was 640KB , not 512KB
[18:06:18] <cncjerry> cradek, are you one of the developers? familiar with Axis internals?
[18:06:40] <cradek> cncjerry: yes, but I sense I'm falling in a trap by admitting it :-)
[18:07:55] <cncjerry> k, so I was messing with Axis yesterday trying to get it to give me higher jog when shifted+cursor. are you familiar with Jog under Axis?
[18:08:50] <cradek> go ahead and ask your real question
[18:09:12] <cradek> or, maybe we should take it to emc-devel if it's going to be intricate
[18:11:41] <cncjerry> well, I messed with jogspeed within the jog_on function, saved, reloaded and couldn't get any impact. looks straight forward. I have to play with it more, did't have a lot of time yesterday.
[18:11:53] <jepler> this is both easy and hard. the "easy" is that if the ongoing jog is a continuous jog, just send a new jog message with the desired new speed when shift is pressed or released. the hard is making sure that there are no sequences of events that fail to shut off some jogs, keeping in mind that there are 3 jog sources: axis-specific keys, active-axis keys, and active-axis mouse clicks. In 2.4 I'd like to see axis's jog completely rewritten.
[18:12:59] <cradek> wait, you are talking about two different things: one sets the jog speed according to the modifier only when the jog starts [cncjerry] and one changes the speed during the jog as the modifier changes [jepler]
[18:13:10] <cradek> which is what you are trying to implement? which is what we want?
[18:13:14] <cncjerry> yes, I was at start.
[18:13:54] <JymmmEMC> cncjerry: Are you trying to replicat the functionality of TCNC ?
[18:14:00] <cncjerry> I want to be able to press the shift at jog start and go fast. without shift go slow. add shift during jog wouldn't imact the current jog.
[18:14:13] <cncjerry> no, replicate the keyboard functions of mach3
[18:14:26] <cradek> in your design, how does this fast/slow interact with the jog speed slider?
[18:14:32] <cncjerry> press ctrl and jog increment, press shift and go fast.
[18:14:41] <SWPadnos> (and the functions of TCNC, and Ah-Ha ...)
[18:14:55] <SWPadnos> does the slder position change, in your model?
[18:14:56] <cncjerry> I would have the slider set the max, shift would be at max, without shift it would be a factor of max
[18:14:57] <SWPadnos> slider
[18:14:58] <jepler> yes, by all indications this is not an original idea
[18:15:08] <cradek> ok, now we're talking about three things, the third is a modifier for incremental
[18:15:20] <cncjerry> nobady said it was a new idea
[18:15:20] <JymmmEMC> ok. In TCNC, arrows jog, arrow+SHIFT do fast jog. Even while holding down the arrow keys continously, toggling the SHIT key will flip between normal and fast jog.
[18:15:35] <JymmmEMC> err SHIFT
[18:15:36] <cncjerry> yes, that would be ok
[18:15:48] <SWPadnos> 'd like a SHIT key
[18:15:49] <cncjerry> so adding shift would make it go faster
[18:15:50] <SWPadnos> I
[18:16:42] <cncjerry> the real plus would be starting with ctrl+arrow for incremental instead of hitting the i. you have to stare at the screen to make sure the I is .001 not 1 or you crash into the chuck a few times
[18:16:46] <cradek> I'm all for more keyboardability. I can't come up with a coherent design though (the complicating factor is wanting to support any jog speed, which is why we have the (logarithmic) slider)
[18:16:56] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: alias [az]= rm-rf /*
[18:17:45] <JymmmEMC> cradek: is that used alot? Changing jog speeds
[18:18:23] <cradek> JymmmEMC: constantly, if you have a fast machine and/or long travel
[18:18:30] <cncjerry> no, if you can shift to a higher speed, then going slow is normal, shift + arrow is high. I used that a lot with Mach3. the ctrl+ arrow I used even more.
[18:18:39] <JymmmEMC> cradek: Would having a normal and fast jog be a viable alternative?
[18:18:53] <cradek> on a small stepper machine, I bet people leave it turned up all the way because they move so slow
[18:18:58] <JymmmEMC> cradek: values set in a ini file
[18:19:04] <cncjerry> i would think having the normal be .5 max and then shift being max
[18:19:13] <cradek> no, I adamantly believe that replacing it with two speeds is unacceptable
[18:19:18] <JymmmEMC> I think it should be user settable
[18:19:32] <cncjerry> keep it simple, max and half max
[18:19:37] <cncjerry> slider being max
[18:19:44] <alex_joni> current, and half-current
[18:19:45] <cncjerry> ctrl+arrow being incremental
[18:19:49] <jepler> personally, I feel uncomfortable with incremental being a modifier -- "accidentally release ctrl, break tool" is easier to do than "accidentally press c, break tool"
[18:20:29] <jepler> likewise, the speed modifier key shouldn't be used to access the slower (safer) jog speed
[18:20:32] <cradek> cncjerry: by default then, you wouldn't get the jog speed shown on the screen when you press the arrow. I think that would be confusing to the user.
[18:20:37] <cncjerry> accidentally hit i twice without staring at the small font on axis and go from .0005 to .1. Press that a few time and bury the tool in the new softjaws
[18:20:40] <SWPadnos> or "accidentally miss the ctrl modifier inthe first place, brerak tool"
[18:20:45] <JymmmEMC> cncjerry: I actually set custom jog speeds. really slow, and quick rapids to get to the other end, and just pulse when I get clsoe
[18:20:56] <cradek> cncjerry: in 2.3, "I" doesn't wrap anymore for this reason
[18:20:59] <jepler> default = obey jog speed slider. shift = max speed
[18:21:33] <cradek> cncjerry: i = smaller increment, I = larger increment
[18:21:49] <SWPadnos> does it wrap?
[18:21:51] <cncjerry> so i ruined my brand new soft jaws yesterday and broke a cutter with the i wrap.
[18:21:54] <cradek> no. I agree that wrapping was a bad idea
[18:22:02] <cncjerry> when can I get 2.3?
[18:22:10] <cradek> cncjerry: today there is a beta available
[18:22:20] <cncjerry> is it easy to install?
[18:22:23] <cradek> yes
[18:22:33] <cncjerry> where is it?
[18:22:33] <jepler> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.emc.devel/1967
[18:22:53] <jepler> (that reminds me, I never sent the beta2 announcement)
[18:23:46] <alex_joni> jepler: yup, that might be nice
[18:23:57] <alex_joni> maybe even an anouncement at linuxcnc.org ?
[18:24:47] <cncjerry> well, i am going to continue with my keyboard mods when I get time. having the two jog speeds is great. the incremental with ctrl+arrow allows you to hit ctrl+pagedown for instance at the end of a pass and then go back into continuous for taking successive amounts off a part.
[18:25:54] <alex_joni> not much different than 'c' then page-down
[18:26:09] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is nitpicking <- don't mind him
[18:27:09] <cradek> I would like to have a coherent design that has what everyone wants... Then when jepler decides to rewrite jogging he can get it right in one try!
[18:29:01] <cradek> (unfortunately not everyone always agrees with my definition of coherent)
[18:29:22] <JymmmEMC> Why not let everyone have what they want?
[18:29:36] <JymmmEMC> let them choose/enable which ever they prefer
[18:30:13] <cradek> because then you're committed to writing and maintaining every possible jogging method
[18:30:28] <cradek> (or at least, many of them)
[18:30:31] <jepler> because the different choices will interact in ways the developer does not foresee
[18:30:55] <JymmmEMC> Not really, Just give them the option to pick and choose.
[18:30:58] <jepler> for instance, many of the jogging bugs in axis arise only if you use a keyboard jog and a mouse jog at the same time (the "+" and "-" onscreen buttons)
[18:31:16] <Optic> is there a way in axis to enter a position manually?
[18:31:20] <Optic> numerically?
[18:31:29] <SWPadnos> MDI
[18:31:29] <cradek> Optic: that's what MDI is for
[18:31:33] <Optic> oh, you can type in g-code in that other tab, right? :)
[18:31:33] <Optic> haha
[18:31:38] <cradek> heh
[18:31:45] <Optic> G0 X0 Y0
[18:31:47] <Optic> I forgot all about that
[18:32:38] <alex_joni> can't do that (MDI) while machine isn't homed!
[18:32:53] <Optic> that's ok
[18:33:41] <alex_joni> that's ok: bad command or filename
[18:34:31] <jepler> * jepler wonders if he needs to explain alex_joni's sense of humor to Optic
[18:35:42] <cradek> wow, that's an amazing set of release notes.
[18:36:55] <jepler> cradek: did you check to make sure I didn't accidentally double them up or something?
[18:36:58] <jepler> it did seem quite long
[18:37:09] <jepler> on the other hand, it represents a year's work by several people (part time, but still)(
[18:37:12] <jepler> s/($//
[18:37:25] <cradek> no, it's real
[18:37:56] <cradek> best EMC release ever! (and yes, I say that every time)
[18:38:35] <Optic> * Optic gets it
[18:38:38] <Optic> i'm just having a slow day :)
[18:38:39] <SWPadnos> maybe we should make a "brown paper bag" release, just to make you wrong about it once
[18:39:56] <jepler> SWPadnos: pretty sure we've had a few of those
[18:40:12] <Optic> http://capybara.org/~dfraser/temp/squares.jpg
[18:40:21] <Optic> check out our lasered acrylic squares!
[18:40:43] <jepler> why'd you choose to cut them at different angles? is it testing something?
[18:41:00] <cradek> nifty!
[18:41:01] <Optic> yeah, non-straight lines, x vs y steps per inch calibration
[18:41:10] <Optic> they're all the same size!
[18:41:23] <jepler> well that's a good idea
[18:41:26] <Optic> plus it looks cool
[18:41:33] <alex_joni> cool
[18:41:35] <jepler> also lets you measure parallelism of X and Y, in addition to scaling
[18:41:41] <jepler> without having anything that's known to be square
[18:41:47] <Optic> it's a really easy jigsaw puzzle
[18:42:15] <Optic> that's full power from our 25W co2, at a feed rate of 20
[18:42:16] <alex_joni> jepler: the real fun is cutting those out on a non-square machine, then mixing them up, and trying to fit them back together
[18:42:22] <alex_joni> 20 IPM ?
[18:42:26] <Optic> yep
[18:42:43] <Optic> pretty slow
[18:43:03] <Optic> all the pieces fell out when I picked it up off the bed
[18:43:30] <alex_joni> cool
[18:43:35] <Optic> cutting acrylic seems to generate some liquid
[18:43:48] <Optic> i had it sitting on cardboard when I was cutting it, and it made little pools
[18:43:51] <Optic> that etched the plastic
[18:43:53] <Optic> you can see it on the squares
[18:44:03] <Optic> a proper raised bed would help, i'm sure
[18:44:24] <Optic> some honeycomb
[18:44:25] <jepler> are you the person who linked to the bed made of saw blades?
[18:44:30] <Optic> yep
[18:45:23] <jepler> hacksaw blades
[18:45:45] <Optic> that was me
[18:46:29] <Optic> that was 1/8" stock, we were also able to cut 1/4"
[18:46:42] <Optic> we had to move the focus point to the middle of the stock, and cut at 7 IPM
[18:47:18] <alex_joni> how do you focus?
[18:47:35] <alex_joni> raise bed / ocular?
[18:47:49] <Optic> the bed height is adjustable
[18:48:02] <Optic> there's a little plastic focus jig that was included with the engraver
[18:48:24] <Optic> basically the beam waist is 2" below the lens
[18:48:31] <Optic> on our machine
[18:48:53] <Optic> we have the bed height as the "W" axis on emc2
[18:49:53] <Optic> unfortunately the stepper for the bed moves it very slowly and the home sensor is at the very bottom of its travel, so we don't home it or have it calibrated
[18:50:10] <Optic> it would take serveral minutes to home it
[19:01:54] <alex_joni> "We.ve validated in a number of tests that VMware virtualised servers can run twice as many applications than other hypervisors at equal or even greater performance levels."
[19:04:43] <Optic> hmm
[19:04:52] <Optic> i call bullshit
[19:05:49] <alex_joni> "so even if it's more expensive than the competition, by sticking more VMs in the same hardware you're actually saving money"
[19:06:35] <toastatwork> i don't understand how vm can beat a hypervisor
[19:07:24] <toastatwork> o well
[19:07:30] <alex_joni> toastatwork: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03/25/vmware_calculator/
[19:07:55] <toastatwork> i'm not disagreeing that they're claiming it
[19:08:06] <toastatwork> i just don't understand/trust how they came to say it
[19:08:47] <alex_joni> I simply linked it, cause there's a pdf where they might explain it
[19:08:51] <toastatwork> ah
[19:08:52] <alex_joni> I didn't bother reading it :)
[19:08:53] <toastatwork> ty
[19:13:56] <alex_joni> toastatwork: it's only targeted at M$ Hyper-V
[19:14:51] <toastatwork> i'm not curious enough to actually read the pdf, but it just seems bizarre that they'd get TWICE the performance out of their implementation
[19:14:56] <toastatwork> versus other solutions
[19:17:00] <alex_joni> to be honest, they did start 2-3 years before the others
[19:17:23] <toastatwork> that is true
[19:17:36] <toastatwork> also i am facemilling a large block of 304 right now and it takes forever
[19:17:57] <toastatwork> which i suppose gives me lots of time to sit on irc and complain about how long it takes
[19:18:37] <SWPadnos> the only thing I can think of (without bothering to read the PDF) is that they have drivers to go in the guests, which may remove some shenanigans that have to be done in the Hypervisor otherwise
[19:30:09] <jepler> toastatwork: I guess you should mill it on vmware instead of something else
[19:33:12] <JymmmEMC> toastatwork: On a MBP (which has BootCamp), I kinda find it ironic that the EXACT same XP install performs as good (or sometimes even better) under a VM that it does nativity on the same exact hardware.
[19:38:21] <toastatwork> jepler i hear it'd be twice as fast
[19:40:06] <alex_joni> not twice as fast, but you can mill on twice as many vice's at once
[20:44:43] <toastatwork> there's this insert mill that's making a really loud popping sound
[20:44:47] <toastatwork> and i can't figure out why
[20:44:58] <toastatwork> it's crackling
[20:49:15] <toastatwork> oh well
[20:49:44] <toastatwork> oh, that's why
[20:49:55] <toastatwork> we're conventional milling stainless steel and the mills are recutting chips
[20:49:56] <toastatwork> great
[20:51:17] <Optic> that sounds bad but I have noi dea
[20:51:20] <Optic> no idea :)
[20:53:31] <toastatwork> considering the chips work harden after they're cut, it's pretty bad
[20:55:31] <Optic> oh i see
[20:55:36] <Optic> it's like they're tempered?
[20:55:46] <Optic> from the heat?
[20:56:10] <toastatwork> no, work hardened
[20:56:23] <toastatwork> material that is very malleable, like stainless
[20:56:34] <toastatwork> it has like a 50% elongation before failure
[20:57:11] <toastatwork> the grains fracture and slip in the metal, and smaller grains are harder
[20:57:23] <toastatwork> it's the same kind of strength imparted by forging
[20:57:26] <toastatwork> or cold working
[20:57:44] <Optic> aha
[20:57:52] <Optic> so recutting them would be very bad for the mill
[20:57:56] <alex_joni> good night all
[20:57:58] <toastatwork> yep
[20:58:03] <toastatwork> also sometimes the chip doesn't recut
[20:58:10] <toastatwork> and just jams between the tooth and the work
[20:58:15] <toastatwork> then you hear "ping"
[20:58:28] <toastatwork> and you suddenly own one fewer endmill
[21:00:50] <toastatwork> that happens mostly with smaller endmills
[21:01:00] <toastatwork> these are 1 and 1 1/2" endmills, so a a chip won't break the tooth
[21:17:06] <robin_z> oh dear ...
[21:17:24] <robin_z> why do people have to tempt me with gas turbines
[21:39:38] <rob__> Hi all, just tryed to run stepconfig on firends machine and got a traceback error see here http://innovative-rc.co.uk/stepconf-error.jpg
[21:43:13] <eric_unterhause1> read only filesystem?
[21:44:14] <rob__> its made files in the home folder, under name of mill i gave it to call it
[21:44:23] <rob__> its written the ini file, but hal file is empty
[21:44:48] <rob__> i just try it quickly on my machine and it has same error even with default values
[21:45:01] <eric_unterhause1> did you check to see if /usr/share/doc/emc2/examples/sample-configs/common/emc.nml exists?
[21:45:25] <eric_unterhause1> how did you install your system, live cd?
[21:45:38] <seb_kuzminsky> it's not a live cd
[21:45:52] <seb_kuzminsky> is it the 2.3.0beta2 .deb?
[21:46:06] <rob__> CVS latest (as of sunday)
[21:46:33] <seb_kuzminsky> you compiled a .deb from CVS and installed that? or you're running out of your sandbox with run-in-place?
[21:47:01] <eric_unterhause1> run-in-place shouldn't look in usr/share
[21:47:07] <rob__> its installed
[21:47:08] <seb_kuzminsky> i agree ;-)
[21:47:22] <eric_unterhause1> rob__ maybe not :)
[21:47:37] <seb_kuzminsky> rob__: are you on Trunk or v2_3_branch?
[21:47:38] <rob__> yea that location does not exsist, /usr/share/doc
[21:48:02] <toastatwork> uh oh, now that insert mill is glowing erd
[21:48:03] <toastatwork> *red
[21:48:24] <eric_unterhause1> toastatwork: run!
[21:48:26] <skinnypup> woo hoo
[21:48:37] <toastatwork> i am not okay with this
[21:49:17] <rob__> 2.3.0 beta 1 mine is
[21:49:31] <eric_unterhause1> rob__ did you make install?
[21:49:34] <rob__> yea
[21:49:51] <eric_unterhause1> did configure give you any problems?
[21:49:56] <seb_kuzminsky> rob__: wait, what? did you do a make install or dpkg -i?
[21:50:04] <rob__> make install
[21:50:08] <seb_kuzminsky> ick
[21:50:36] <eric_unterhause1> CVS checkout of the source tree, correct?
[21:51:10] <rob__> yes
[21:51:40] <seb_kuzminsky> looks like configs/common doesnt get installed by make install
[21:51:42] <eric_unterhause1> i don't see how a dpkg -i is going to do anything other than issue errors
[21:54:15] <seb_kuzminsky> the configs/common files *do* get installed by the .deb
[21:55:26] <seb_kuzminsky> rob__: look in /usr/local/share/doc/emc2, is there anything there?
[21:56:06] <rob__> yes thre is
[21:56:18] <seb_kuzminsky> is there examples/sample-configs/common/emc.nml?
[21:56:41] <rob__> yes
[21:57:17] <seb_kuzminsky> i wonder why stepconf thinks it should look in /usr/share instead of /usr/local/share
[21:58:05] <seb_kuzminsky> i bet the "make install" gets less testing than the rip and the deb... so thanks for testing it ;-)
[21:58:22] <rob__> haha
[21:58:36] <rob__> so i do deb this will fix it right
[21:59:07] <seb_kuzminsky> i think so
[21:59:53] <seb_kuzminsky> is there a "make uninstall"? if so run that first and cross your fingers ;-)
[22:00:13] <rob__> ill have give that a try 2morow night
[22:00:58] <seb_kuzminsky> do you have local changes in your CVS sandbox? If no, it'd probably be easiest to just install the 2.3.0 beta .debs
[22:01:31] <rob__> no i dont
[22:01:54] <seb_kuzminsky> are you on hardy?
[22:02:07] <rob__> yes
[22:02:26] <seb_kuzminsky> great! this should be pretty easy to get working well :-)
[22:03:15] <seb_kuzminsky> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#On_Ubuntu_8_04_using_precompiled_EMC2_packages
[22:03:51] <seb_kuzminsky> i think you just have to download and run that script and it should take care of it all
[22:04:03] <rob__> install 2.3 beta
[22:04:12] <seb_kuzminsky> right
[22:05:29] <rob__> ill give it a shot later, thx
[22:06:31] <seb_kuzminsky> would you please also file a bug report on sourceforge, against Trunk, that after a make install in /usr/local, stepgen still looks for sample-configs/common/emc.nml in /usr, not /usr/local
[22:07:58] <rob__> sure
[22:13:23] <rob__> is beta2 out yet?
[22:13:32] <seb_kuzminsky> yes, it just came out
[22:13:34] <jdhNC> (not really emc related, but...) can someone tell me difference between a CNC Mill and a CNC Router? spindle power? some arbitrary limits?
[22:14:46] <toastatwork> speed
[22:15:02] <toastatwork> routers tend to be fast machines, in spindle and linear movement
[22:15:15] <toastatwork> they're not as accurate as a mill, lower horsepower
[22:15:17] <toastatwork> larger envelope
[22:15:20] <toastatwork> the Z axis tends to be smaller
[22:15:21] <JymmmEMC> no cooling
[22:15:30] <toastatwork> sometimes they have a vacuum hookup on the spindle
[22:15:44] <JymmmEMC> not really intended for metal
[22:15:45] <toastatwork> a lot of routers can be had 5 axis simultanious for not all that much money
[22:15:51] <toastatwork> whereas a 5 axis mill is $$$$$
[22:16:12] <toastatwork> they're tailored for wood, wax, light aluminum work, etc
[22:16:15] <toastatwork> composites
[22:16:21] <toastatwork> they deal with abrasives better
[22:16:24] <JymmmEMC> plastics
[22:16:39] <jdhNC> so what's better for small circuit boards?
[22:16:52] <jdhNC> and if you build it yourself, is there still a difference?
[22:16:54] <toastatwork> probably a router, for the spindle speed
[22:17:11] <toastatwork> but depending on what ELSE you want to do, aside from circut boards
[22:17:13] <toastatwork> will give you the answer
[22:17:25] <jdhNC> heh, I want it to be able to make parts for a more precise one.
[22:17:36] <toastatwork> if you build it yourself, you are going to be building a machine more in line with a router
[22:18:11] <toastatwork> imho, anyway
[22:18:38] <eric_unterhause1> toastatwork: do you have internet access at your cnc?
[22:18:38] <jdhNC> any advantage to board based stepper drivers vs. commercial drive units? I can get working, pulled stepper parker drives for pretty much nothing
[22:19:06] <toastatwork> i have wireless access in front of it, does that count?
[22:19:16] <eric_unterhause1> jdhNC: you should send all those parker drives to me
[22:19:28] <toastatwork> jdhnc: i dunno, you'd have to ask one of these more knowledgable gentlemen
[22:20:01] <eric_unterhause1> If I could get a batch of Parker drives for very little, I'd be all over that in a heartbeat
[22:20:29] <toastatwork> eric_unterhause1: what did you mean re: internet
[22:20:32] <jdhNC> next... does anyone use headless boxes for emc with remote X displays? any latency/lag issues?
[22:20:52] <eric_unterhause1> toastatwork: I was just curious what machine you were using for IRC
[22:20:54] <jdhNC> sounds like he's haxq0ring your mill
[22:21:09] <toastatwork> im in ur mills cuttin' ur steel
[22:21:22] <eric_unterhause1> jdhNC: I think it would work fine
[22:21:42] <eric_unterhause1> my millz isn't on the internet due to laziness
[22:21:45] <cradek> jdhNC: it works ok but I'd be careful with fast continuous jogs
[22:22:17] <toastatwork> both mills i am running right now have fanuc controls, they don't do anything but cut metal
[22:22:23] <toastatwork> no vim or solitare
[22:22:36] <jdhNC> one more... can you feed step/dir pulses back in to EMC as encoder input?
[22:23:10] <cradek> what is the goal you have in mind that makes you ask that?
[22:23:13] <jdhNC> so you could have a manual jog control that also fed steps to the drives and emc would still know where you were.
[22:23:22] <cradek> oh you mean a jog wheel
[22:23:28] <cradek> they are quadrature, and yes they work great
[22:23:30] <jdhNC> kind of
[22:23:39] <toastatwork> jog wheels make the world go round
[22:23:43] <eric_unterhause1> jdhNC: feed the jog into emc
[22:23:50] <cradek> yep the best way to jog, hands down
[22:24:55] <jdhNC> I had a reason to not do it that way, but it seems to escape me now.
[22:25:00] <eric_unterhause1> I thought about doing it the other way on my mill, decided better of it
[22:25:15] <cradek> sorry, not doing what, what way?
[22:25:45] <jdhNC> not feed a jog+/- to emc but generate steps externally
[22:26:33] <eric_unterhause1> my drives have an extra encoder input for that purpose
[22:26:41] <eric_unterhause1> I decided not to use that
[22:26:50] <seb_kuzminsky> thanks rob__
[22:26:57] <cradek> a milling machine cannot obey two masters :-)
[22:27:02] <rob__> np seb_kuzminsky glad can help ;)
[22:27:12] <toastatwork> cradek and lord help you if it tries
[22:29:12] <fenn> now there's an idea: cheese lithophanes
[22:29:40] <eric_unterhause1> fenn, the thought had never occurred to me
[22:30:41] <fenn> it neednt be custom machined: you could make a mold to press/cast the cheese
[22:32:56] <|newbie|> |newbie| is now known as dareposte
[22:46:45] <jepler> darnit -- I clearly remember stocking up on radioshack perfboard two years ago, but I'll be damned if I can find my stash now
[22:47:15] <fenn> just mill some out :P
[22:47:31] <fenn> stripboard.py should be easy enough
[23:18:14] <dmess> hi all
[23:21:43] <JymmmEMC> yo
[23:52:29] <dmess> sup.. you know of a GOOD ct50 jig grinding attatchment??
[23:52:56] <dmess> not just an overspinner
[23:54:57] <JymmmEMC> I have nfc even what a CT50 is... and can't even think of anythign funny to make of it either
[23:56:02] <dmess> CAT 50 spindle sound familiar?