#emc | Logs for 2009-03-21

[00:42:26] <dareposte> success! finally managed to wedge that new mill into the garage, using only a cheap shop crane
[00:42:51] <dareposte> i'll be digging metal splinters out of my hands for days
[00:43:58] <archivist> * archivist hopes for the cnc conversion by monday
[00:44:26] <dareposte> lol
[00:44:43] <dareposte> it does look like it will be pretty "easy" to convert
[00:44:48] <dareposte> for x and y
[00:44:52] <dareposte> not sure about the Z yet
[00:45:15] <dareposte> i had to take the knee off to crane it in, and it wasn't immediately apparent how the best way to fit a screw in there is
[00:46:11] <dareposte> i think step one will be getting it leveled on the garage floor, which is apparently not level at all
[00:46:15] <archivist> moving heavy lumps can be fun
[00:46:17] <dareposte> it has a slight rock to it when you lean up against it
[00:48:06] <dareposte> i guess you can use some of those vibration mounts to level it??
[00:49:40] <archivist> some cast cement under the base, some use adjustable screw, some both, some use packing
[00:50:01] <dareposte> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=325-6615&PMPXNO=5832301&PARTPG=INLMK32
[00:50:41] <dareposte> i was thinking of getting four of those and putting one through each hole
[00:51:31] <archivist> that would help with transmitted noise through to the house and next door
[00:51:48] <dareposte> that would be a good thing too I guess
[00:52:50] <dareposte> mostly I just want it leveled though
[00:55:30] <dareposte> and I guess a phase converter too
[00:56:39] <archivist> I would get a vfd that has 0-10v in spead control and phase for the spindle motor
[00:56:55] <dareposte> yeah that's what I was thinking
[00:57:05] <dareposte> i have a 2hp one, but it is a 208v 3 hp motor
[00:58:28] <archivist> motors can be reconfigured star to delta
[00:59:04] <dareposte> yeah but what would that accomplish
[00:59:23] <archivist> changes the voltage rating as well
[00:59:26] <dareposte> still be 3 phase, 3hp right
[00:59:53] <archivist> see label if its designed for both
[01:00:24] <dareposte> I will probably just put one of these on it: http://www.driveswarehouse.com/Drives/AC+Drives/Phase+Converter+VFD/X200-022NFU1.html
[01:00:36] <dareposte> it has a nice 0-10v interface on it
[01:01:00] <dareposte> the only down side is it requires 240v, but oh well
[01:01:19] <dareposte> for a 3hp motor i'd rather be able to plug it into a 20A 120v outlet and let it run off that
[01:01:57] <DanielFalck> dareposte: What kind of mill did you get?
[01:02:19] <dareposte> an "exacto" brand bridgeport copy
[01:02:37] <dareposte> I think I determined it is a series 1 copy, with a J head
[01:03:04] <dareposte> the place I went to pick it up is like machine tool heaven
[01:03:15] <DanielFalck> did you go to HGR?
[01:03:28] <dareposte> no, I went to Mohawk Machinery in cincinnati
[01:03:31] <dareposte> similar to HGR
[01:03:52] <dareposte> they had bridgeport clones stacked up about 5 rows deep by 4 columns wide
[01:03:58] <dareposte> like soldiers in formation
[01:04:21] <dareposte> several different warehouses for manual / stamping / edm / cnc / etdc
[01:04:36] <dareposte> i would have gotten a small flywheel press too if I had any way to get it home
[01:05:35] <dareposte> I think it was a 40 ton press, and it totally would have fit in my garage
[01:06:46] <dareposte> one of my friends is interested in making stampings for re-enactment armor, and wanted it for that
[01:07:15] <dareposte> tiny little scale type things, maybe the size of a golf ball or slightly larger
[02:26:38] <jack000> hellow
[02:27:56] <jack000> hellow (echo)
[02:28:04] <toastydeath> hay
[02:28:35] <jack000> know anything about emc? :]
[02:28:43] <toastydeath> haha, actually, no
[02:28:46] <toastydeath> sorry
[02:29:05] <SWPadnos> I'm sure someone else does though
[02:29:20] <toastydeath> like that guy right there
[02:29:23] <SWPadnos> (might not be me ;) )
[02:29:24] <toastydeath> that guy knows a lot about emc.
[02:29:24] <jack000> ah ok. you don't use emc then?
[02:29:39] <toastydeath> nope, but swpadnos does
[02:29:39] <SWPadnos> you could ask the real question, and see what answers you get ...
[02:29:50] <SWPadnos> well, I plan to, but I don't use it yeu
[02:29:52] <SWPadnos> yet
[02:29:53] <toastydeath> oh.
[02:29:57] <SWPadnos> I just help write parts of it :)
[02:30:02] <toastydeath> hahahahah
[02:30:05] <jack000> I finally finished building my machine, hooked it up and got everything working!!
[02:30:12] <SWPadnos> excellent.
[02:30:14] <SWPadnos> our work is done
[02:30:59] <jack000> the only thing is, when I test my axis, it only goes about 2~3 inches when it's supposed to go 5
[02:31:11] <SWPadnos> how do you mean "test"?
[02:31:17] <SWPadnos> using EMC or stepconf or something else?
[02:31:21] <jack000> using the stepconfig wizard
[02:31:53] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure, but I think the stepconf test may allow something like blending
[02:32:25] <SWPadnos> so as the axis moves toward one end of travel, the position command changes to the other end. so it never quite gets to the full excursion
[02:32:34] <SWPadnos> but like I said, I'm not positive that's the way it works
[02:32:48] <SWPadnos> you could try doing a move in EMC, and see if the distance is correct
[02:32:53] <SWPadnos> if not, change the scale to make it correct
[02:32:54] <jack000> hm.. ok. I think I'll try some gcode and see how far it moves
[02:33:07] <jack000> also, when I test at 2 in/s, it always brings it back down to 1.5. any idea about that?
[02:33:32] <SWPadnos> it just may not have enough accel to get up to speed
[02:33:35] <SWPadnos> oh
[02:33:52] <SWPadnos> actually, your machine may not be able to run it as fast as you want
[02:34:18] <jack000> you mean the computer speed test result thing?
[02:34:24] <SWPadnos> if the latency test numbers were too high, or you have very very high resolution stepping, the max speed the PC can go may not be as high as you want
[02:34:28] <SWPadnos> latency, yes
[02:34:51] <jack000> I set that on whatever default value they had, would that be a bottleneck?
[02:35:05] <SWPadnos> well, the first thing you need to do is get real numbers for your computer
[02:35:15] <SWPadnos> but yes, that can be a bottleneck
[02:35:20] <SWPadnos> what's the steo resolution?
[02:35:22] <SWPadnos> step
[02:35:25] <jack000> ok, thanks I'll try that
[02:35:37] <jack000> 1.8 degree per step
[02:35:51] <jack000> so 200 steps/turn
[02:35:52] <SWPadnos> no, I mean how many steps per inch (or cm)
[02:36:20] <jack000> um.. 10 tpi x 200 steps. think that's 2000
[02:36:31] <SWPadnos> ok, direct drive, no gearing?
[02:36:39] <jack000> wait.. 20 000
[02:36:43] <jack000> direct drive
[02:36:51] <SWPadnos> 10x microstepping?
[02:37:11] <jack000> I'm actually not sure.. it's a gecko 251
[02:37:18] <SWPadnos> yep, 10x
[02:37:33] <jack000> do I have to set that in stepconf?
[02:37:46] <SWPadnos> if you look at the bottom of the axis configuration page, it will show you the scale value it calculated for you
[02:37:48] <jack000> I recall the default being 2 or something
[02:37:59] <SWPadnos> from the steps/rev, microstepping, TPI stuff you enter
[02:38:08] <jack000> ok
[02:38:13] <SWPadnos> default is 2, but I'm pretty sure the G251 is 10
[02:39:10] <jack000> oh. last question :] how do I use a series home switch configuration? the stepconf wizard seems to expect 3 home switches on 3 pins
[02:39:28] <dareposte> toastydeath: I didn't realize you don't use emc!
[02:39:48] <SWPadnos> hmmm. I don't know if there's a shared home option in stepconf
[02:40:07] <SWPadnos> I know there's shared home and limit (per axis)
[02:40:17] <toastydeath> dareposte: YOU REALIZE NOW, I'M SURE
[02:40:20] <SWPadnos> one thing you can do is add to the custom.hal file
[02:40:44] <dareposte> toastydeath: so.. how did you wind up finding this place??
[02:40:59] <SWPadnos> stepconf will generate a line like "net Xhome axis.0.home-sw-in"
[02:41:01] <toastydeath> it's the only cnc related irc i know of that isn't dead
[02:41:18] <toastydeath> that is what i was looking for, and stayed around (much to the chargin of some)
[02:41:22] <SWPadnos> you can add lines to custom.hal that also connect that signal (Xhome) to the axis.1 and axis.2 home inputs
[02:41:45] <dareposte> hah, well i think you have been pretty helpful
[02:41:50] <toastydeath> ty
[02:41:55] <SWPadnos> like "net Xhome axis.1.home-sw-in" (or however it's spelled - check the .hal file that stepconf generates for you)
[02:42:03] <jack000> would that work? how would it recognize which switch has been triggered?
[02:42:39] <SWPadnos> I thought you said there's only one switch input??
[02:42:54] <jack000> well, 3 switches in series
[02:43:02] <SWPadnos> they'd have to be in parallel
[02:43:07] <SWPadnos> or NC
[02:43:25] <jack000> hm.. ok
[02:43:26] <SWPadnos> but there's no way for EMC to tell which switch closes, which means you have to home in sequence
[02:43:49] <SWPadnos> and there's an option that says that home is shared between multiple axes (HOME_IS_SHARED or similar) - you'll have to put that in the ini
[02:44:10] <SWPadnos> once you edit the ini, you'll lose the ability to use stepconf without it overwriting your changes
[02:44:25] <jack000> sounds like it'll be easier to wire it in parallel :]
[02:44:43] <SWPadnos> well, it makes no difference if you only use one pin ;)
[02:45:04] <SWPadnos> check the manual, I think homing is pretty well explained in there
[02:45:16] <jack000> ok, thanks
[02:45:32] <SWPadnos> sure - have fun with it :)
[02:45:52] <jack000> what machine do you have? I'm just starting out with a simple mdf build
[02:46:44] <SWPadnos> I have a Bridgeport milling machine and a Hardinge lathe
[02:46:50] <SWPadnos> which I have yet to retrofit :)
[02:47:01] <dareposte> the lathe or the mill
[02:47:06] <SWPadnos> yes
[02:47:10] <archivist> collecting round tuits
[02:47:19] <SWPadnos> no, I seem to be all out at the moment
[02:47:42] <SWPadnos> I did finally finish my accounting work though, taxes are in the hands of the accountant now
[02:47:57] <SWPadnos> (at least for the business - I get to do personal taxes next month)
[02:48:35] <archivist> I dont like taxes
[02:48:40] <SWPadnos> no, me either
[02:48:43] <jack000> I wish I had some cool gear. Then I might be able to mill some metal. with my machine I think I'll be barely able to route mdf
[02:48:52] <SWPadnos> especially because I get to do them twice
[02:49:13] <SWPadnos> jack000, slow but sure will - uh - not break as many bits
[02:49:18] <SWPadnos> maybe :)
[02:49:28] <toastydeath> ^^^ this
[02:49:35] <dareposte> he might have a 3kw servo on it, you never know :)
[02:49:41] <DanielFalck> might burn them though :)
[02:49:49] <DanielFalck> slow but sure...
[02:49:58] <jack000> I find that mdf flexes quite a bit. I can move it like 1/2 cm just with my hands
[02:50:08] <SWPadnos> oh. thicker MDF might be better
[02:50:14] <SWPadnos> until the humid season starts
[02:50:34] <jack000> hm.. yeah, still need to coat it with poly
[02:50:54] <toastydeath> i have been taking pictures of stuff at work in progress as a new hobby, but somehow i lost three or four pictures
[02:50:57] <toastydeath> sadface
[02:51:37] <jack000> so are you guys doing cnc professionally?
[02:51:48] <toastydeath> i am
[02:51:51] <DanielFalck> I am
[02:52:07] <dareposte> i occasionally attempt, but usually fail
[02:52:18] <toastydeath> hindsight i should have said "i'm sparticus!" instead, and seen if a bunch of people picked up on it
[02:52:20] <jack000> what are the chances of my doing some signage, etc to get back some of my capital? :D
[02:52:33] <toastydeath> depends on how serious you are about it
[02:52:57] <jack000> I'm pretty serious about eating..
[02:53:14] <toastydeath> hah
[02:53:23] <dareposte> DanielFalck: are you using emc commercially?
[02:53:46] <toastydeath> http://twitpic.com/img/2acqj-210075ca7f457af62bae6f32009c87fb.49c45732.jpg
[02:54:00] <DanielFalck> dareposte: not at the moment- I have in the past though
[02:54:52] <jack000> pictures like that makes me want to start on a steel machine
[02:55:11] <archivist> grab metal start making
[02:55:13] <jack000> if only I had more money :]
[02:55:26] <toastydeath> that is a 15" chuck at 800 rpm
[02:55:30] <archivist> cheap metal at scrap yard
[02:55:46] <dareposte> what spindle nose does that mount to toasty
[02:55:51] <toastydeath> A2
[02:56:11] <toastydeath> like an A2-12 or something
[02:56:24] <toastydeath> the spindle is almost flush with the chuck.
[02:56:28] <jack000> I've never been to a scrap yard before.. are there quality steel to be had?
[02:57:36] <toastydeath> (i don't know)
[02:57:38] <archivist> some yards save good looking bits
[02:57:56] <toastydeath> I'm sure you could weld car doors together or something
[02:58:01] <toastydeath> make a bridge machine
[02:58:15] <archivist> could have bought a lathe from the local one for £25 this week
[02:58:56] <jack000> I've never actually done metalwork before either, so that's another problem :]
[02:59:15] <toastydeath> you'll break a few endmills, and pick it up
[02:59:16] <jack000> come to think of it, I've never actually done woodwork before this machine
[02:59:29] <toastydeath> some parts will come loose and put a hole in the wall
[02:59:39] <DanielFalck> learning is part (or a lot) of the fun
[02:59:43] <jack000> but that's the fun isn't it ;]
[02:59:47] <archivist> thats just the MDF machine
[02:59:53] <toastydeath> depends on how heavy the part is when it goes flying
[03:00:05] <dareposte> (and where you're standing)
[03:00:11] <toastydeath> co-worker had a 150 lb block thrown across the room
[03:00:24] <DanielFalck> start with small pieces of balsa wood then
[03:00:35] <jonpry> anyone have experience with use_index?
[03:01:07] <jonpry> my machine homes back to where it came from
[03:01:08] <DanielFalck> not me
[03:01:08] <jack000> how about building a plexiglass "safety booth"
[03:01:30] <toastydeath> a plexi saftey booth is a great idea from a dust/chip/coolant containment perspective
[03:01:33] <toastydeath> regardless of safety
[03:02:01] <dareposte> also wear plexiglass eye shields. mine caught a piece of 9/16" stainless hex recently
[03:02:15] <jack000> I got a full-face shield :]
[03:02:20] <SWPadnos> jonpry, have you read the manual section(s) on homing setup?
[03:02:23] <SWPadnos> oh well
[03:02:28] <cradek> not plexiglass - polycarbonate
[03:02:32] <dareposte> oh
[03:02:40] <dareposte> whatever they are they don't breka
[03:02:41] <dareposte> break
[03:02:57] <cradek> yeah, that's polycarbonate, good stuff
[03:03:03] <jack000> can you mill aluminum with a 24000 rmp woodrouter?
[03:03:20] <SWPadnos> not likely, unless you have a 0.01" end mill
[03:03:25] <DanielFalck> it will melt on you and weld to the end mill
[03:03:35] <SWPadnos> and a very very very very low TIR (like 0)
[03:03:49] <SWPadnos> and no backlash on any axis
[03:03:55] <toastydeath> plain carbide is good to a couple thousand SFM
[03:03:57] <SWPadnos> and a very rigid machine
[03:04:03] <DanielFalck> and some coolant
[03:04:06] <jack000> hm.. ok. how about a variable speed router at 8000 rpm?
[03:04:10] <DanielFalck> which isn't good for mdf
[03:04:20] <cradek> wood routers are for routing wood
[03:04:23] <archivist> pure ally needs lube
[03:04:36] <archivist> its sticky
[03:04:50] <cradek> no wood router is going to cut metal adequately
[03:04:58] <SWPadnos> Tap Magic Aluminum
[03:05:06] <SWPadnos> excellent cuts and it smells like cinnamon :)
[03:05:08] <jack000> what can I use besides a wood router? is a spindle the only way to go then?
[03:05:11] <toastydeath> or a can of wd-40
[03:05:13] <cradek> it's like asking if you could cut down a tree with a dremel tool - technically the answer is yes, but it's asking the wrong question
[03:06:01] <dareposte> what do you need cut out of aluminum?
[03:06:10] <archivist> I get through dremels
[03:06:15] <jack000> robot parts..
[03:06:20] <toastydeath> jack000: milling machine, spindle speed between 80-3k rpm
[03:06:40] <toastydeath> is usually a good range for all purpose metal duty
[03:06:54] <dareposte> you could always use your wood router to make a wood pattern, and cast it
[03:07:07] <dareposte> backyard casting is a bit of an adventure]
[03:07:24] <jack000> from what I've seen of diy casting you need to mill it a bit aftwards anyways
[03:07:36] <archivist> or file
[03:07:44] <toastydeath> or SCRAPE!
[03:07:50] <toastydeath> :D
[03:08:02] <toastydeath> anyway a slower spindle, if one can be had, will do you fine
[03:08:07] <dareposte> you can cast, file flat, and hand fit parts
[03:08:15] <jack000> can I just get a cheap chinese spindle from ebay and cut wood/al/steel?
[03:08:30] <cradek> what will you mount it on?
[03:08:54] <jack000> aluminum machine with 8020 probably
[03:09:16] <cradek> you can't cut steel on that, and probably not aluminum either
[03:09:29] <cradek> mills are made of tons of cast iron for a reason
[03:09:42] <jack000> really? I figured an aluminum machine would be able to mill aluminum
[03:09:54] <toastydeath> you can take light cuts.
[03:10:01] <cradek> possibly
[03:10:10] <toastydeath> it's not going to be anything anyone would mistake as a brisk pace
[03:10:26] <jack000> ok
[03:10:29] <toastydeath> .050" depth passes with like a 1/2" 2fl endmill
[03:10:38] <dareposte> you can get a bench mill and cnc it
[03:10:42] <archivist> you can use speed and inertia and get away with a looser machine
[03:11:00] <cradek> starting with a bench mill is a much smarter approach
[03:11:04] <jack000> anyone ever tried grinding some granite? :D
[03:11:22] <jack000> my cousin does granite work, and he had this crazy idea of a cnc granite machine
[03:11:30] <cradek> countertop guys do that all the time - just takes lots of water
[03:11:34] <toastydeath> i've seen a video of a homemade granite cnc
[03:12:02] <jack000> what kind of endmill would that take? some kind of grinding rock lump I'd imagine
[03:12:21] <archivist> there is a website of pics of an epoxy granite machine
[03:12:29] <toastydeath> they'd retrofitted a hand grinder to a lathe
[03:12:33] <toastydeath> and added a C axis
[03:12:57] <dareposte> i just made a batch of stainless inserts for some guy trying to build a granite cnc mill
[03:13:07] <dareposte> i told him he was crazy but made them anyway
[03:13:21] <toastydeath> brittle stuff does not mill well =(
[03:15:10] <jack000> alright, I'm going to give it another try. thanks for the tips!
[03:15:17] <toastydeath> gl
[03:25:01] <Guest869> is anyone around?
[03:25:19] <toastydeath> a couple folks, yes
[03:25:28] <dareposte> yep
[03:25:53] <Guest869> posted a question earlier about threading issues thought I might see if anyone here had any ideas
[03:26:05] <dareposte> must've missed it
[03:26:08] <dareposte> what was the question?
[03:26:21] <Guest869> for some reason I get rapids in the middle of some threads
[03:26:36] <dareposte> oh i had that problem
[03:26:39] <toastydeath> wow, that is unfortunate
[03:26:43] <dareposte> wound up being noise on the encoder line
[03:26:49] <dareposte> are you using single index pulse?
[03:27:06] <Guest869> yes single index
[03:27:22] <dareposte> try using shielded cable for your encoder
[03:27:32] <dareposte> ground one end of the shield and leave the other end unshielded
[03:27:46] <Guest869> threaded tons of M22x1.5 with no issues switched to M20x2.5 and every other was junk
[03:27:47] <dareposte> or add a bigger current sinking resistor
[03:28:05] <dareposte> well that wouldn't make sense then
[03:28:26] <Guest869> I have shielded cable run in a steel conduit
[03:29:04] <Guest869> Running Jon elson's boards, I belive they have a built in pull-up or pull-down resistor
[03:29:20] <dareposte> well there goes my theory
[03:29:49] <dareposte> does halscope show any problems?
[03:30:11] <Guest869> I have not checked. What should I be looking for?
[03:33:45] <cradek> Guest869: I answered your message on the list. did you see it?
[03:34:04] <cradek> Guest869: also i wanted to ask: are you 100% sure you are using 2.2.6 and not 2.1.6? 2.1.6 had this behavior.
[03:35:30] <dareposte> Guest869: look for a missing or extra index pulse whenever it screws up a thread, try to crank up halscope's sampling rate by using only a single channel on the spindle_index line
[03:36:04] <cradek> he is using ppmc which is a hardware encoder counter board. he will not have direct access to the index signal because it is too fast.
[03:36:25] <cradek> it's the job of the hardware (and driver) to handle the index pulse properly, and this behavior is a sign that it's not
[03:36:41] <cradek> you can observe the index-enable signal which should go low when the count resets
[03:37:11] <cradek> if you get an index-enable going low without the count reset, or a count reset without index-enable going low, you have a driver or hardware bug
[03:37:46] <Guest869> i am running 2.2.6 upgraded a few months back when I was having a similar issue
[03:38:40] <cradek> have you done the troubleshooting with halscope I suggested in the email to the list?
[03:40:13] <Guest869> cradek for some reason I have not yet gotten your email
[03:41:06] <Guest869> I have not looked at this issue with halscope, honestly had no idea what to look for.
[03:41:10] <SWPadnos> didn't Jon make a change to the FPGA code in the last couple of years?
[03:41:18] <SWPadnos> to deal with index issues
[03:41:22] <cradek> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.emc.user/13168
[03:41:37] <cradek> SWPadnos: yes I think so.
[03:41:52] <jack000> thanks! you were right. g251 does use 10. works great now
[03:42:02] <cradek> Guest869: have you talked to Jon E? He should be intimately familiar with this problem - he and I and others spent a LOT of time debugging it
[03:42:03] <SWPadnos> great
[03:43:31] <Guest869> Cradek: I have not yet contacted Jon E, will send him an email. thanks
[03:43:41] <jack000> I will give you $1 000 000 when I become rich from my cnc ventures muahahaha!
[03:44:04] <jack000> ok maybe 1 000 000 japanese yen..
[03:44:41] <jack000> in 60 years..
[03:48:38] <dareposte> maybe stop now, you're starting to insult them
[03:48:40] <dareposte> :)
[04:19:54] <toastydeath> beep boop
[04:19:55] <toastydeath> techno
[04:22:09] <toastydeath> i am reading the emc.user list, some guy named kir wallace asked about a mori seiki SL4
[04:22:15] <toastydeath> *kirk
[04:22:38] <toastydeath> i wonder if he knows that machine is like 40-50 hp and draws full current when the spindle lights up or stops
[04:23:17] <toastydeath> how do i reply to this guy
[04:26:32] <toastydeath> oh well
[04:26:57] <toastydeath> does emc usually work well with preexisting spindle and servo drives?
[04:26:58] <fenn> kirk seems pretty clueful
[04:27:37] <DanielFalck> I think he has a big shop. maybe he has 3 phase and lots of it
[04:28:00] <toastydeath> i'd love an sl4, if he can power it i hope he gets it
[04:28:02] <toastydeath> so accurate
[04:28:04] <toastydeath> and so big
[04:29:57] <jmkasunich> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifWpe0rm350&feature=related
[04:30:24] <toastydeath> but for unknown servo and spindle drives, how does emc work with that
[04:30:36] <toastydeath> do you have to find the specs for them and write a driver or something?
[04:30:42] <fenn> raa butt rock
[04:30:47] <jmkasunich> depends on the drive
[04:30:59] <jmkasunich> many just need +/-10V input
[04:31:11] <jmkasunich> butt rock?
[04:31:26] <fenn> well, that's what we call it
[04:31:47] <jmkasunich> I just got back from the show
[04:31:59] <fenn> have fun?
[04:31:59] <jmkasunich> he's a local dude
[04:32:02] <jmkasunich> yeah
[04:32:13] <jmkasunich> I've seen them about 5 times over the last 25 or so years
[04:32:31] <jmkasunich> he still puts on a good show
[04:33:14] <jmkasunich> its funny being at a concert where grey haired people are standing on bar stools and dancing
[04:33:22] <fenn> http://homepages.nyu.edu/~crm281/butt.html
[04:34:05] <fenn> ok so maybe not
[04:34:46] <jmkasunich> here's another good one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfw3hkuFFYI&feature=related
[05:12:46] <jack000> is it more cost effective to build or buy large cnc machines? something like 8' x
[05:17:12] <coden4life> depends on what you are going to do with it
[05:19:51] <jack000> signage, guitars.. maybe some aluminum robotic parts
[05:20:49] <jack000> oh, and how do you get sharp inside corners? tiny tiny bits?
[05:21:11] <jmkasunich> depends on how really sharp they need to be
[05:21:16] <jmkasunich> it can be very difficult
[05:22:17] <coden4life> concur and a cheap hass mill would work for ya
[05:22:27] <coden4life> I don't like hass myself though
[05:23:11] <jack000> you mean like a conversion? how much do ya reckon a used one will cost?
[05:23:42] <jack000> oh nvm they're cnc.
[05:24:02] <coden4life> ya and they are fairly inexpensive
[05:24:16] <jmkasunich> hass and inexpensive in the same sentence?
[05:24:26] <jmkasunich> maybe by pro machine shop standards
[05:24:30] <jmkasunich> not by hobbyist standards
[05:25:04] <jack000> commerical machines always give me stickershock
[05:25:19] <jack000> think it's possible to build a quality machine for under 10g?
[05:25:19] <coden4life> no more than a new car
[05:25:28] <jmkasunich> jack000: it is a very very wide world out there - for someone trying to put a machine in their garage on a hobby budget, building has a lot going for it
[05:25:30] <coden4life> yup did it for under 1g
[05:25:33] <jmkasunich> for a shop, buying makes sense
[05:26:05] <jmkasunich> jack000: you have to define "quality machine" better
[05:26:06] <jack000> I just finished my first mdf machine. cost me about 1300 canadian
[05:26:21] <jmkasunich> you said guitars and maybe aluminum
[05:26:25] <jmkasunich> and just now MDF
[05:26:33] <jack000> 8' x 4' y, rigid enough to cut aluminum
[05:26:48] <jack000> I'm pondering about my second machine :]
[05:26:48] <jmkasunich> how much Z?
[05:27:05] <jack000> um.. 1' or so?
[05:27:11] <jmkasunich> ok, large and flat
[05:27:15] <jmkasunich> (fairly flat)
[05:27:24] <jmkasunich> that is "router", not "mill" by most peoples standards
[05:27:39] <jmkasunich> a "mill" with an 8' x 4' working envelope is gonna way many tons
[05:27:49] <jmkasunich> because it can cut steel
[05:27:59] <jmkasunich> s/way/weigh
[05:28:07] <jack000> think a router can cut aluminum?
[05:28:14] <jmkasunich> marginal
[05:28:32] <jmkasunich> the bigger it is, the less likely it will be able to cut metal
[05:28:50] <jack000> is there a softer metal that's better for machining? gold maybe :D
[05:29:00] <jmkasunich> if you make the gantry twice as long, it gets four times more flexible
[05:29:36] <jack000> I see, so a smaller metal router might be able to cut al
[05:29:41] <jmkasunich> to get it back where it was, you need to at least double the thickness, so you wind up with at least 4 times as much metal in the frame (and quite possibly 8 times as much) to make the machine twice as big
[05:30:55] <jack000> would a mill conversion be more cost effective? second hand mills shouldn't cost too much right
[05:30:56] <jmkasunich> the difference is really between "cut" and "cut well"
[05:31:17] <jmkasunich> 8' x 4' is a freaking huge size for a mill
[05:31:17] <jack000> hm.. ok
[05:31:41] <coden4life> yup don't have anything that big at work .... that is large
[05:32:00] <coden4life> I have never seen an 8' ballscrew
[05:32:11] <jmkasunich> regarding cut vs cut well - the rigidity needed to run a 1/8" end mill 1/16" deep, and the rigidity needed to run a 1/2" end mill 1/4" deep, are two totally different things
[05:32:12] <jack000> I'll try to think about what I really need in a machine
[05:32:53] <fenn> jack check out mechmate.com - it relies too much on laser cut parts but the basic design is good
[05:33:21] <jmkasunich> just for reference: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=30-689-003&searchtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50&currentPageIndex=0&searchNAP=
[05:33:30] <jmkasunich> that mill has a 2.5' x 4' table
[05:33:37] <jmkasunich> and I bet it weighs 4 tons
[05:34:28] <fenn> there are different alloys of aluminum, and most of them machine like crap
[05:34:41] <fenn> make sure that you get one that isn't too gummy
[05:34:57] <jmkasunich> avoid 5052 like the plague
[05:35:04] <fenn> it's quite possible to machine aluminum with a high quality wood router
[05:35:07] <jmkasunich> 6061 and 6063 are so-so, but cheap
[05:35:16] <jmkasunich> mic-6 is very nice to machine, and not too expensive
[05:35:32] <jmkasunich> 2024 and 7075 machine well and can be very strong, but are expensive
[05:35:49] <jack000> mechmate looks interesting. do they just buy their own steel/components then?
[05:35:51] <fenn> you'll have trouble getting the speed low enough and/or feed high enough to take a decent thickness chip
[05:36:11] <jmkasunich> fenn: when you say router, do you mean "motor and spindle assy", or do you mean "cnc machine with rails and such"
[05:36:21] <fenn> i mean motor and spindle
[05:36:24] <jmkasunich> I agree that a router motor/spindle assy can cut aluminum
[05:36:29] <jack000> I think most variable speed wood routers go down to 8000 rpm
[05:36:33] <jack000> is that slow enough?
[05:36:38] <jmkasunich> but many CNC routers aren't rigid enough
[05:36:42] <fenn> uh, cnc machine mounted on rails.. well, it depends
[05:36:52] <jmkasunich> jack000: there is some simple math there....
[05:37:08] <jmkasunich> you like to keep the chip thick enough that you are actually cutting, not rubbing
[05:37:13] <fenn> there's no particular reason why not, but a lot of people who build woodworking CNC machines don't understand the principles of vibration dampening and rigidity
[05:37:21] <jmkasunich> say 0.0005 as a minimum (0.001 to 0.002 is better)
[05:37:37] <fenn> dampening? or is it damping?
[05:37:38] <jmkasunich> at 8000 RPM with a two flute cutter, you are taking 16000 chips/,minute
[05:37:53] <fenn> damping
[05:38:33] <jmkasunich> with a 0.0005 chip, you need to move at 8 inches/min, with a 0.002 chip you need to move 32 inches/minute
[05:39:15] <fenn> a lot of "variable speed" controls just change the voltage, which means the motor will bog down and heat up when you give it something to chew on
[05:39:21] <fenn> (and snap off the bit in short order)
[05:40:06] <jack000> ok. thanks for the advice. I'm a bit new to metalworking.
[05:40:08] <fenn> at the very least make sure it's a current regulated variable speed, but even better would be velocity control
[05:40:14] <jmkasunich> move too slow, and you will start rubbing instead of cutting, heat will build up, chips will start sticking to the tool, then the tool will break
[05:40:35] <fenn> jack000: make sure you understand the difference between "feed" and "surface speed"
[05:40:48] <jack000> heck, I'm new to woodworking. I build my first machine in my bathroom because I don't have a proper shop :D
[05:40:52] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[05:40:54] <fenn> congratulations :0
[05:41:01] <jack000> nite
[05:41:29] <jack000> what is the difference between feed and surface speed..
[05:41:31] <fenn> a lot of people chicken out/make excuses because they live in an apartment
[05:41:52] <fenn> i want to make kits that people can use regardless where they live and how much they desire to procrastinate
[05:42:08] <fenn> feed = the xyz velocity
[05:42:33] <fenn> surface speed = the velocity of the cutter's edge
[05:42:39] <jack000> I've never really liked kits. I think they kind of subvert the diy spirit
[05:42:46] <jack000> oh ok
[05:43:24] <fenn> hmm i guess i'm not really thinking kits, more like products
[05:43:42] <fenn> anyway they would be partially disassembled when shipped
[05:44:02] <jack000> yeah, sometimes those things make practical sense, if you need to run a business and whatnot
[05:44:07] <fenn> it's a tool to make projects with, not a project in itself
[05:44:55] <fenn> i'd probably publish the plans for building your own from scratch as well, because of my unreasonably high expectations of morality and fairness
[05:45:05] <jmkasunich> I just realized that when I was talking about speed and chips above, I completely glossed over surface speed
[05:45:28] <fenn> surface speed for carbide on aluminum is so ridiculously high it shouldn't be an issue with tiny router bits
[05:45:40] <jack000> oh it's ok, fenn filled me in :]
[05:45:46] <jmkasunich> fenn: I want to show the math that defines "tiny"
[05:46:02] <fenn> let's say 1/4" dia as upper limit
[05:46:03] <jmkasunich> for high speed steel cutters, 200 surface feet per minute (SFPM) is a good number
[05:46:56] <fenn> '8000rpm*(pi*inch/4)/rev' = 523.598 feet/min
[05:47:03] <jmkasunich> 200 sfpm * 12 = 2400 sipm, divided by 8000 RPM = 0.3 inches/rev, divided by pi (since the surface speed depends on the circumfirence of the tool) means 0.1"
[05:47:56] <jmkasunich> carbide can go to several hundred SFPM, _but_ you must make sure the feed is right - at the higher speeds, avoiding rubbing is extremely critical
[05:48:09] <fenn> hm ok
[05:48:13] <jmkasunich> even a few seconds of feeding too slow could start melting chips onto the tool
[05:48:49] <jmkasunich> actually, carbide can probably go over 1000 SFPM, with the right tool, coatings, coolant, etc
[05:49:40] <jmkasunich> jack000: do you have an ordinary router (handheld)?
[05:50:04] <jack000> really old one I bought at a garage sale for $25
[05:50:15] <fenn> i think it would be fun to put a low res encoder on a wood router and do constant feed per rev with emc :)
[05:50:41] <jmkasunich> get a 1/8" (preferred) or 1/4" end mill - two flute - and stick it in the router
[05:50:54] <jmkasunich> set depth of cut quite shallow - 1/16" or less to start
[05:51:00] <jack000> I have a 1/4" 4 flute one
[05:51:01] <fenn> put on your safety glasses
[05:51:04] <jmkasunich> get some 1/8" or thicker aluminum sheet
[05:51:12] <fenn> don't use a 4 flute endmill when slotting
[05:51:15] <jmkasunich> do NOT use 4-flute for aluminum in a router
[05:51:38] <jack000> ok. I figured as much
[05:51:41] <fenn> it will clog instantly
[05:51:47] <fenn> and then break
[05:51:58] <jmkasunich> anyway, clamp the aluminum sheet down, and clamp a straightedge to it
[05:52:12] <jmkasunich> then route by hand, trying various feeds and depths of cut
[05:52:42] <jmkasunich> that will do more than anything you can read (here or elsewhere) to give you a feel for speeds, feeds, and depth of cut
[05:53:05] <jack000> I already feel scared, but I'll try it :]
[05:53:26] <fenn> don't be afraid to jam the router into the work hard enough to get a good feed rate
[05:53:55] <jack000> can you use a light dimmer to slow down the router? I heard that was a bad idea but don't remember why..
[05:54:00] <fenn> also i'd like to recommend Boelube to keep the alumunum from sticking to the bit
[05:54:15] <fenn> or wd-40 if you like making messes
[05:54:17] <jmkasunich> I use WD-40
[05:54:23] <fenn> mess-maker :)
[05:54:49] <jack000> I think I'll stick to mdf for now, I don't want to break my router on the first run :D
[05:54:59] <jmkasunich> jack000: for this "manual router testing", you should use depth of cut as your main variable
[05:55:12] <jmkasunich> you can't reduce router speed much beyond what the router is designed for
[05:55:15] <jack000> ok
[05:55:30] <jmkasunich> you can't reduce the feed rate much below 0.002 per tooth if you want to avoid heat
[05:55:36] <fenn> jack000: don't forget that it's possible to make your own milling spindle with speed reduction pulleys and big beefy bearings etc
[05:55:39] <jmkasunich> but you can make very shallow cuts
[05:55:56] <fenn> i hear tapered roller bearings for trailers works well and is inexpensive ($10 ea or so)
[05:56:09] <jmkasunich> fenn: true, but - the slower you go, the more rigidity you need
[05:56:21] <fenn> something like that
[05:56:51] <jack000> I heard you can get a cheap chinese spindle with vfd for like $500
[05:57:03] <fenn> probably
[05:57:05] <jmkasunich> at high speeds, the mass of the motor and other head parts tends to "filter out" the fluctuations in cutting force as the cutter enters and leaves the work
[05:57:22] <jmkasunich> at low speed, the machine frame has to resist those fluctuations
[05:57:23] <fenn> can't you just use a flywheel?
[05:57:49] <fenn> or are you talking about lateral x/y/z movement/flex of the head
[05:57:56] <jmkasunich> lateral
[05:58:11] <fenn> inertial confinement fission :P
[05:58:37] <jack000> oooh, big words
[05:58:43] <jmkasunich> think about wood routing - you can control a router by hand
[05:59:04] <jmkasunich> put that same cutter in an electric drill and run it at a few hundred RPM - it would be totally unusable
[05:59:41] <jack000> so how's the market for cottage-industry signage? I'd sure like to get some of my money back...
[05:59:50] <fenn> depends where you live
[05:59:53] <jmkasunich> I have clue
[05:59:57] <jack000> canada
[06:00:15] <fenn> in US you need to be a certified master electrician in order to get a permit for a sign installation
[06:00:15] <jmkasunich> usually, people figure out the market, then make a machine to suit the product they are gonna make
[06:00:29] <jmkasunich> starting with a machine and looking for a market seems backwards
[06:00:48] <jmkasunich> fenn: I assume that is for an electric sign?
[06:00:49] <fenn> (becoming a master electrician takes 20 years or so)
[06:01:00] <fenn> yes, but in practice almost all signs are electrical
[06:01:20] <jack000> I'm an engineering student, needed to make robotic parts and stuff for school projects
[06:01:26] <jack000> but money's tight!
[06:01:43] <fenn> jack000: find something you would have spent money on but you can make instead, then sell them
[06:01:53] <jmkasunich> http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&hl=en&safe=off&q=engraved+sign&btnG=Search+Images
[06:02:02] <jmkasunich> most of those are not electric
[06:02:32] <fenn> most of those don't require a 4x8 router either
[06:02:53] <jack000> novelty plates? could say I hand made them, which is sort of true :D
[06:02:58] <jmkasunich> btw, some of those hits are sign making businesses - their pricing may give you a clue about what is competitive
[06:03:26] <jmkasunich> and now I really am going to bed
[06:03:40] <jack000> nite
[06:04:50] <skinnypup> here's something that could fall under specialty signage with no electricity
[06:04:51] <skinnypup> http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.libertymirrors.com/Quickstart/ImageLib/sh_palm_2_200.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.libertymirrors.com/page17.html&usg=__fswvZoez1ngJEGdORE0GPFnlcOI=&h=514&w=1097&sz=207&hl=en&start=3&um=1&tbnid=TW021IdId2uKmM:&tbnh=70&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsandblasted%2Bmirror%2Bsign%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1
[06:05:30] <toastydeath> re: speeds and feeds, with the right carbide tools, you are essentially unlimited in rpm
[06:05:30] <jack000> is that sand blasted glass?
[06:05:34] <toastydeath> er sfm
[06:06:00] <skinnypup> yeah sandblasted , looks nice on mirror signs too
[06:06:47] <jack000> muahahaha, with my newly acquired cnc skills my plans for world domination is complete!
[06:07:18] <jack000> I'm just excited because I finally finished my router tonight.. took me like 6 months
[06:08:42] <fenn> man that stuff is cheesy
[06:08:47] <coden4life> is it running... cause if it ain't your not maken money... that is the trick.... lights out machining
[06:08:50] <fenn> clip-art != art
[06:09:39] <jack000> haven't actually routed anything yet, still need to read the emc docs and learn the software
[06:09:47] <jack000> xyz moves though! yay
[06:13:26] <toastydeath> a+
[06:13:34] <jack000> what type of non-mdf wood is best for signage? ie. won't splinter under a router bit
[06:14:18] <toastydeath> i don't want to be a total poopyhead
[06:14:45] <jack000> preparing to be pooped...
[06:15:03] <toastydeath> but what's your competative advantage versus a shop that's been open for 10 years, has several 50k+ routers, and the very expensive software and EXPERIENCE to program them quickly, with complicated graphics?
[06:15:24] <jack000> my time is virtually worthless :[
[06:15:37] <jack000> so, lower prices..
[06:15:53] <toastydeath> and your signs will reflect that.
[06:16:27] <toastydeath> at least in machining job shops, people try to do home businesses by undercutting the big guys all the time.
[06:16:29] <jack000> yeah, you get what you pay for I suppose :D
[06:16:36] <toastydeath> they always fail, because undercutting is not a business strategy.
[06:16:49] <toastydeath> it's an effect of your business strategy.
[06:17:16] <toastydeath> but you can always try, i suppose
[06:17:58] <jack000> the way I figure it, I'd get maybe one job a week, and that's ok because I mostly built it for myself
[06:18:19] <toastydeath> is it portable?
[06:18:31] <jack000> yeah
[06:18:52] <jack000> I built a modular controller so I can just unplug it
[06:18:59] <toastydeath> how about starting by going to flea markets and little craft shows
[06:19:16] <toastydeath> and offer to make signs for the middle aged ladies who sell things they make from craft shows?
[06:19:49] <jack000> cool, I might try that :]
[06:20:09] <toastydeath> it's a safer bet than taking on work from a business
[06:20:44] <jack000> the main motive was because my school didn't have a cnc machine, which I thought was incredible given the amount of tuition they charge..
[06:21:01] <toastydeath> my school has a cnc, and nobody uses it
[06:21:10] <toastydeath> because it's not as easy as it looks to actually get things made
[06:21:36] <jack000> is it an engineering school?
[06:21:52] <toastydeath> it's an engineering program in a small school
[06:22:01] <toastydeath> the shop takes up most of the engineering wing, if that matters
[06:22:30] <jack000> yeah, me too. my school (SFU) does mostly computer science/electronics and not much mechanical
[06:22:53] <jack000> it's got like a drillpress and a lathe, and that's it
[06:23:01] <toastydeath> a semester isn't enough to teach someone how to run a cnc, much less become a programmer
[06:23:27] <jack000> I figure I can start a club around a cnc machine, so people with projects who need it can join and use it
[06:23:49] <toastydeath> we've got 9 lathes, 6 bridgeports, some drillpresses, shear, surface grinder, a vertical machining center, and a turning center
[06:24:19] <jack000> hm.. I thought it was pretty simple. just model the part, conver to tool path, then to gcode and run it
[06:24:30] <toastydeath> no, it is not that simple.
[06:25:32] <toastydeath> how are you holding the part, do you need to fixture?
[06:25:43] <jack000> I have a custom clamping system
[06:25:45] <toastydeath> cutting certain features before others will affect accuracy and rigidity
[06:25:59] <jack000> basically a grid of threaded inserts
[06:26:00] <coden4life> process is important
[06:26:27] <toastydeath> that's why even though it "sounds" simple, most shops don't let anyone but a few senior machinists do programming
[06:27:10] <coden4life> and at my shop the programmers don't get to program my machines cause they suck using surfcam
[06:27:34] <jack000> hm.. what subtleties are there? I thought the cam program would do most of the work..
[06:27:43] <toastydeath> the cam program does what you tell it to.
[06:27:51] <toastydeath> just like writing code by hand.
[06:27:56] <coden4life> they are programmers not machinist and have no clue on anything except from the shop floor feed back
[06:28:05] <coden4life> yup
[06:28:19] <jack000> I'm a software programmer by trade :]
[06:28:20] <coden4life> that is why quality help is important not just wheel spinners
[06:28:21] <toastydeath> jack000, you need to actually cut some metal, a lot of metal, before you are going to realize exactly how much you don't know about machining
[06:28:35] <coden4life> amen
[06:28:43] <coden4life> time is your only teacher
[06:29:02] <toastydeath> i am only two years into machining, in general, and oftentimes the only thing i learn on any given day is that i don't know much
[06:29:06] <jack000> yeah, I guess I'll find out when I break a few bits :]
[06:29:16] <coden4life> amen
[06:30:10] <jack000> what size bit is good for routing 2d shapes? would a 1/8 bit dull faster than a 1/4?
[06:30:28] <toastydeath> purely 2d?
[06:30:40] <jack000> probably in passes though
[06:30:52] <toastydeath> it depends on what, exactly, you're trying to cut out
[06:31:15] <jack000> a rectangle mostly
[06:31:15] <toastydeath> smallest feature, biggest feature, is this some crazy contour, is it mostly squares and circles
[06:31:19] <toastydeath> etc
[06:31:21] <toastydeath> how big of a rectangle?
[06:31:24] <toastydeath> a pocket, a frame?
[06:31:33] <jack000> 5"x5"?
[06:31:37] <toastydeath> material?
[06:31:49] <jack000> mdf or plexiglass
[06:31:59] <toastydeath> is this a pocket, or are you tracing the outer contour
[06:32:00] <toastydeath> how tall is it
[06:32:16] <jack000> 1/4 thick, outer contour I guess
[06:32:33] <toastydeath> on your machine with how fast a minimum spindle speed?
[06:32:44] <jack000> 24000 rpm fixed
[06:33:24] <toastydeath> i'd try the 1/4 bit, possibly a 3/8ths
[06:33:32] <toastydeath> and take it in two or three passes
[06:33:38] <toastydeath> one flute, by the way
[06:33:43] <toastydeath> if you can find it
[06:33:55] <toastydeath> i know they make one flute router bits somewhere
[06:34:09] <jack000> seems like 4 flutes are pretty useless then?
[06:34:20] <toastydeath> you don't have a big enough machine to use four flutes
[06:34:35] <jack000> shame.. I already have two 4 flutes..
[06:34:47] <jack000> it won't even work for mdf?
[06:34:48] <toastydeath> i calculate you have to run at a minimum, 96 inches a minute
[06:35:00] <toastydeath> four flute endmills are pretty much for steel
[06:35:02] <toastydeath> only
[06:35:09] <toastydeath> tracing outer profiles in steel, not full slotting
[06:35:26] <toastydeath> i have not yet heard of someone running EMC at over 50 inches a minute in a cut.
[06:35:27] <jack000> guess I'll have to get some spiral bits tomorrow then..
[06:35:38] <toastydeath> for a contour, anyway
[06:35:40] <toastydeath> straight facing sure
[06:35:50] <fenn> MDF will dull any bit rapidly
[06:35:56] <fenn> it's full of silica
[06:36:24] <toastydeath> if you use a one flute bit, you're going to hopefully get some wiggle room on speed, but you'll still be moving 24 ipm
[06:36:34] <jack000> even wood spiral bits? what would be a better material then?
[06:36:41] <toastydeath> nothing
[06:36:42] <fenn> to do what?
[06:36:57] <fenn> you still havent told us what you want to make
[06:36:58] <jack000> robot gripper..
[06:37:15] <toastydeath> you have a 24000 rpm fixed spindle, there are LOTS of better materials to make it out of
[06:37:18] <jack000> the most urgent thing is a remote controlled robot for my engineering class
[06:37:22] <fenn> UHMW or acetal are great materials for machining random crap
[06:37:31] <toastydeath> but between that spindle speed and the rigidity of the machine, they are not really avaolable
[06:37:37] <toastydeath> *available
[06:37:38] <fenn> but your router will probably be too fast and melt them :\
[06:37:57] <jack000> yeah I heard acrylics gum up the bits
[06:38:03] <toastydeath> coolant helps
[06:38:08] <fenn> acrylic is especially bad
[06:38:09] <toastydeath> but with a wood machine
[06:38:11] <fenn> it's just a pain in the ass overall
[06:38:24] <fenn> fragile, cracks if you look at it wrong
[06:38:51] <jack000> yeah, aluminum or steel next time..
[06:38:52] <fenn> it's used because it's easy to thermoform, it's cheap, and optically clear
[06:38:56] <toastydeath> UHMW would be the best bet
[06:39:07] <fenn> yeah UHMW is pretty cheap
[06:39:07] <toastydeath> witha 1/8th bit you could get through it at ~1500 sfm
[06:39:13] <toastydeath> and it won't dull the cutter
[06:39:28] <fenn> toastydeath: ever machined polypropylene?
[06:39:33] <toastydeath> just use carbide, and keep the whole thing wet with wd40
[06:39:42] <toastydeath> not personally, no
[06:40:29] <toastydeath> we were able to zip along in uhmw at about that sfm without difficulty
[06:40:32] <fenn> jack if you are on a tight budget and want to do lots of fancy alumium shapes, check out lost foam casting
[06:40:49] <toastydeath> hss tooling
[06:41:19] <jack000> yeah I looked into it, I heard za-12 was better for casting?
[06:41:39] <fenn> "i have not yet heard of someone running EMC at over 50 inches a minute in a cut" iirc les watts was doing something like 125ipm (but maybe that's my faulty memory)
[06:41:57] <fenn> contouring wood thingamabobs
[06:42:11] <jack000> but yeah, i could route out the foam and cast the part. but molten metal is scary as hell!
[06:42:22] <toastydeath> there've been several people through here cutting at 120-150 ipm getting path deviations
[06:42:23] <skinnypup> just don
[06:42:27] <fenn> http://lmwatts.com/cnc.html
[06:42:34] <toastydeath> that nobody has been able to help
[06:42:37] <fenn> yeah he was getting path deviations
[06:42:45] <fenn> because the servo cycle was too slow
[06:43:03] <toastydeath> ah, okay then
[06:43:47] <fenn> someone (pete_v?) got the servo cycle up to 10kHz with some tricks but i dont remember if it mattered for their application (some vertical mill)
[06:44:10] <fenn> using ppmc and a pci parport card
[06:44:13] <toastydeath> well that it works period proves it's not emc
[06:44:17] <toastydeath> and is hardware-related
[06:44:25] <fenn> huh?
[06:44:33] <jack000> alright, battlestar time. I'll be back :]
[06:44:46] <toastydeath> like, the last time i was looking on, one of the devs was talking about maybe it being related to lack of look ahead
[06:44:55] <fenn> oh certainly
[06:44:56] <toastydeath> and that's that last time i heard anything about it
[06:45:06] <fenn> the new TP is very primitive compared to the old one
[06:45:17] <fenn> but we understand how it works so we can fix gross bugs
[06:45:32] <toastydeath> hahah
[06:45:37] <toastydeath> awesome
[06:45:56] <fenn> so far nobody has cared enough to make anything more sophisticated
[06:46:31] <toastydeath> just you wait until someone picks up an integrex with a busted control
[06:46:42] <fenn> usually the easiest solution is just to reduce the number of segments of the toolpath
[06:46:50] <fenn> or something along those lines
[06:47:28] <toastydeath> makes sense
[06:48:05] <fenn> i'm not a big fan of realtime lookahead
[06:48:14] <toastydeath> in what way?
[06:48:22] <fenn> i think the trajectory should be calculated before running the program
[06:48:33] <fenn> instead of trying to do everything on the fly
[06:48:40] <fenn> but nobody else seems to agree
[06:48:51] <toastydeath> there IS a command to run a pre-compiled set of servo pulses
[06:48:59] <fenn> halstreamer?
[06:49:05] <toastydeath> no no, i meant on like, fanuc
[06:49:10] <fenn> oh
[06:49:20] <toastydeath> so someone agrees with you, at least, out there
[06:49:24] <fenn> meh
[06:50:15] <fenn> anyway the reason it isn't implemented is because i'm too lazy to dig through piles of C++
[06:50:21] <toastydeath> hahaha
[06:50:53] <toastydeath> is there an implementation in c++ out there somewhere?
[06:51:13] <fenn> offline trajectory generation? probably
[06:52:11] <fenn> reading lots of papers is just a way to procrastinate
[06:52:34] <toastydeath> "it's work, i swear"
[06:53:35] <fenn> jeebus that's a clean install: http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCLatheCNCEnclosures.html
[06:54:19] <toastydeath> woah, points for the labeler
[06:54:59] <fenn> these "look at my control box" pages are much more interesting now that I'm building one
[06:55:34] <fenn> unfortunately i have to work with crap tools and no materials
[06:56:03] <fenn> next time i get a job like this i'm taking all the electronics/electrical stuff back to the lab to put it together
[06:56:16] <toastydeath> more tools there, eh
[06:56:45] <fenn> and less black grit/metal shavings everywhere
[06:57:35] <fenn> * fenn uploads some pics..
[06:58:33] <toastydeath> pics!:
[06:58:34] <toastydeath> http://twitpic.com/img/2acqj-11cb6e2964ffe800e8b2d6b82abbf00f.49c49090.jpg
[06:58:45] <fenn> * fenn drools
[06:59:44] <toastydeath> somebody bought like, 5" stock for a 3" job
[06:59:48] <toastydeath> most of that gets turned off =/
[07:00:11] <toastydeath> where are the pics, good sir.
[07:00:29] <eric_unterhausen> looks like they bought 10" stock for a 3" job
[07:01:13] <toastydeath> it was pretty unncecessary, yeah
[07:01:28] <toastydeath> the finished thing is just a bit bigger than the hole in the center
[07:01:32] <eric_unterhausen> I guess it depends on how much of a rush job
[07:01:47] <toastydeath> it's some grinding fixture for a big air bearing
[07:01:52] <toastydeath> very rush
[07:02:08] <toastydeath> (i guess?)
[07:02:45] <eric_unterhausen> then again, why go to the bother of ordering something when you have something you can cut down?
[07:02:59] <toastydeath> hahahah
[07:03:19] <toastydeath> i really hope that's what happened, but we've been ordering way overstock size for some reason lately
[07:03:22] <toastydeath> it's been happening a lot
[07:05:37] <fenn> well so much for that idea
[07:05:43] <eric_unterhausen> I need an mpc
[07:06:16] <toastydeath> mpc?
[07:06:19] <eric_unterhausen> mpg
[07:06:21] <toastydeath> oh
[07:06:40] <toastydeath> building a pendant?
[07:06:59] <fenn> http://imagebin.org/42173 cookie for whoever can spot the error
[07:07:01] <eric_unterhausen> control panel
[07:07:28] <fenn> (not the detached power supply connector tab either)
[07:07:29] <eric_unterhausen> relay only has one bolt
[07:07:53] <toastydeath> the cable is too open about its sexuality
[07:08:04] <toastydeath> and is making the other, more bland cables uncomfortable
[07:08:59] <fenn> http://imagebin.org/42174
[07:09:08] <fenn> toastydeath: getting close
[07:09:23] <fenn> toastydeath: the rainbow cable goes the wrong way :\
[07:09:31] <fenn> those IDC connectors don't have tabs on them
[07:09:39] <fenn> so you can plug them in backwards
[07:09:42] <toastydeath> haha what a lucky smartass comment on my part
[07:09:55] <toastydeath> a;sp tjat
[07:10:01] <toastydeath> *also that's a nice table you have there
[07:10:06] <fenn> is it?
[07:10:08] <eric_unterhausen> what is the bob?
[07:10:13] <fenn> deskCNC
[07:10:26] <toastydeath> i mean router frame table
[07:10:37] <toastydeath> thing
[07:11:04] <eric_unterhausen> you should have made it a couple feet longer so you could route out car bodies
[07:11:17] <toastydeath> 300 hp planing spindle
[07:11:52] <eric_unterhausen> they have those giant routers for airplanes and boats
[07:11:56] <fenn> this table is cooler i think http://imagebin.org/42175
[07:12:11] <toastydeath> who's the dude on the phone
[07:12:37] <eric_unterhausen> the rails on the second one cost about the same as my car
[07:12:48] <fenn> nah they are just v-rails
[07:12:52] <fenn> unless you have a really cheap car
[07:13:38] <eric_unterhausen> like the bishop-wiescarver v rails?
[07:13:44] <fenn> i think that white one has about $6k in it so far
[07:13:49] <fenn> including labor
[07:14:20] <fenn> it's funny how people get to about the same point and poop out
[07:15:04] <eric_unterhausen> I was going to buy some v rail for an experiment, and I figured out it was going to cost me $3000
[07:15:13] <eric_unterhausen> My boss would notice if I did that
[07:15:52] <toastydeath> hah
[07:16:00] <toastydeath> speaking of things your boss notices
[07:16:03] <toastydeath> i broke a tool changer arm today
[07:16:04] <eric_unterhausen> sometimes I wish I could just go on ebay
[07:16:12] <toastydeath> i didn't know you could do that, but you totally can
[07:16:16] <eric_unterhausen> I bet a lot of people noticed that
[07:16:29] <fenn> like this https://www.motioncontrol.com/products/index.cfm/BishopWisecarver-Corporation-Offers-NEW-Integral-Bushing-and-Stud-Shaft-DualVee-Wheels
[07:16:33] <toastydeath> yeah man, "crack, tink" as the claw snapped in two and fell on the table
[07:16:58] <toastydeath> followed by "pshhh, KAWHAM" as the 35 lb facemill fell out of the spindle and also hit the table.
[07:17:10] <fenn> i think i'd blame whoever built the machine
[07:17:23] <eric_unterhausen> was that your fault?
[07:17:31] <toastydeath> nah, it wasn't my fault, nor the machine's fault, i just happen to be pressing the green button
[07:17:35] <eric_unterhausen> fenn: that's what I thought you meant
[07:17:58] <toastydeath> earlier, they had a problem with the toolchanger "pot down" switch, and somebody made a little cap for it, but they made it like, a mile longer than it should have been
[07:18:18] <toastydeath> so the pot got stuck at an angle because the switch was now an interference mechanism, but it still triggered as "down"
[07:18:56] <toastydeath> so the tool arm crashed into that with a shocking amount of force
[07:18:59] <toastydeath> that's probably what did it
[07:19:16] <eric_unterhausen> nicely done
[07:19:19] <toastydeath> and it's just been holding on by virtue of how it's put together since
[07:20:27] <toastydeath> the guy who did the repair is an old toolmaker who doesn't understand how the cnc's are put together, and never listens to what our boss asks for
[07:20:40] <toastydeath> i thought poor boss was going to drive his truck into the building and kill everyone after that
[07:21:03] <toastydeath> o well
[07:26:03] <skinnypup> just leave a copy of this near it
[07:26:04] <skinnypup> http://imagebin.org/42176
[07:26:43] <toastydeath> haha we used to have some guys who lived that philosophy
[10:46:35] <justa> re
[10:56:07] <Tottish> re?
[11:01:27] <toastydeath> re
[11:03:17] <JymmmEMC> re?
[11:16:42] <alex_joni> reh
[11:24:14] <JymmmEMC> reh?
[11:29:26] <Tottish> reh?
[12:06:55] <Optic> mooo
[14:18:28] <alex_joni> apt-get moo
[14:38:52] <dareposte> emerge moo
[14:43:55] <BJT-Hardy> are they happy cows?
[14:48:13] <SWPadnos> you'll have to check for yourself
[14:48:18] <SWPadnos> it could vary by machine :)
[14:53:14] <BJT-Hardy> no thanks, I saw Mike Rowe do that before...
[14:54:06] <alex_joni> heh
[16:53:17] <Tottish> Hey guys. I'd like to change the pwmgen.0.scale-value from the G-code. Is this possible? I'm under the impression that it's not since the scale-value is a parameter.
[16:53:57] <jmkasunich> you can't change parameters from g-code
[16:54:06] <jmkasunich> and you can only very indirectly change pins from g-code
[16:54:28] <jmkasunich> my gut feeling is that changing the scale (param or pin) from g-code is a very peculiar thing to do
[16:54:56] <jmkasunich> either you have a very peculiar task that you are trying to accomplish that needs a weird approach, or you are doing it wrong ;-)
[16:55:44] <Tottish> Then I will go on your guts here since I'm feeling pretty confident that they're much more experienced then mine here.=)
[16:56:10] <jmkasunich> what are you trying to accomplish (that requires changing pwmgen scale on the fly)?
[16:56:17] <MrSunshine> what kind of currents can i expect in the diodes that protect the L298 ?
[16:56:46] <jmkasunich> MrSunshine: same as the motor current, but probably only for short periods each PWM cycle
[16:57:16] <jmkasunich> I'm not familiar enough with the L298 to know the actual duty cycle off the top of my head
[16:57:27] <MrSunshine> L298 is ust a h-bridge
[16:58:06] <jmkasunich> so it depends on the control mode
[16:58:35] <MrSunshine> ok so i will have to have diodes that can take atleast 2A then :)
[16:59:06] <MrSunshine> wonder how many amps a stepper from a printer takes
[16:59:26] <MrSunshine> need something to develop with until i get myself better diodes, got some 1N4148 at home .. but they take 450mA peak current
[16:59:35] <MrSunshine> 200 continious
[16:59:45] <jmkasunich> then limit the motor current to 450mA
[17:00:13] <MrSunshine> ahh true :)
[17:00:29] <Tottish> I got my speedcompensating-module for my laser working yesterday. I can now burn a 'field' and get a nice, even shading over the entire area. My next step in developing it is to be able to create diffrent shades. I figured I'll just put the commanded spindle speed value in the pwm-scale unil I realized it was a parameter. =( Do you have better idea?
[17:00:39] <jepler> Tottish: use a 'scale' or 'mult2' block to change the input to pwmgen, rather than changing the scale.
[17:00:50] <jmkasunich> what he said
[17:01:31] <Tottish> mult2.. is that a multiplyer with two inputs??
[17:01:37] <jmkasunich> yes
[17:01:45] <jmkasunich> refer to man pages or manual
[17:01:45] <jepler> man 9 mult2; man 9 scale
[17:04:12] <Tottish> OK, and then I could for instance use one input on it from the XY-velocity and the other from the spindle speed? Is it possible for the spindle speed to be set lower than 1 RPM?
[17:04:32] <Tottish> commanded spindle speed, that is
[17:04:45] <jmkasunich> I don't know - but you can certainly scale it
[17:04:58] <jmkasunich> spindle-speed-out -> scale block -> scaled-spindle-speed -> mult block
[17:05:10] <jmkasunich> set the scale block to 0.1 or 0.01 or 0.001, etc
[17:05:28] <Tottish> OK, I'll check it out, thanks alot!
[17:05:34] <jmkasunich> if you set it to 0.001, then 1 to 1000 RPM from the g-code will give you 0.001 to 1.000 to the multiplier
[17:05:47] <Tottish> Yeah, I see.
[18:24:53] <motioncontrol> good evening.In the lib directory of emc is presente some shared library .so , but i don't see the documentation for the declaretion the parameter void.this the documentation for shared library use . thanks
[18:49:21] <dareposte> hi all
[18:50:10] <dareposte> i just received an Owon digital oscope in the mail, at first glance it doesn't seem too bad
[18:52:34] <dareposte> the screen is adequate but slow
[18:53:32] <jmkasunich> motioncontrol: "the parameter void" ?
[18:53:44] <jmkasunich> void is a C keyword meaning "there is no parameter"
[18:57:45] <eric_unterhausen> I am overhearing my wife trying to help her mother hook up her printer :0
[19:00:02] <dareposte> how's that going?
[19:00:20] <eric_unterhausen> the tenor of the conversation is becoming more strained over time
[19:01:38] <dareposte> do you feel inclined to assist?
[19:01:38] <jmkasunich> heh
[19:01:52] <eric_unterhausen> ah, ... no
[19:02:11] <jmkasunich> more likely inclined to suddenly remember an errand that requires his presence elsewhere
[19:03:09] <motioncontrol> not exact void. the declare the single argument the fuction i search.
[19:03:33] <dareposte> rather run an errand than hook up a printer?
[19:03:40] <dareposte> sounds like a bad situation over there
[19:03:42] <dareposte> :)
[19:03:53] <eric_unterhausen> said printer is 3 1/2 hours away by speeding car
[19:03:55] <jmkasunich> rather run an errand then be around arguing females
[19:03:56] <motioncontrol> example int hal_param_bit_set(const char *name, int value)
[19:04:15] <jmkasunich> motioncontrol: I see no void there
[19:05:08] <dareposte> eric: I get what you mean now. I tried to help a friend set up a wireless router, and I was thinking I could just remote in and fix it up, but trying to get them to set up the remote in capability was probably harder than just having them fix the router
[19:05:09] <motioncontrol> yes not is void , but only declare the fuction .there are the documentation for this shared library?
[19:05:17] <jmkasunich> yes
[19:05:27] <jmkasunich> "man hal_param_bit_set"
[19:05:31] <jmkasunich> or look in hal.h
[19:06:10] <jmkasunich> if you have an installed EMC2, the man command should work
[19:06:33] <jmkasunich> if you are using run-in-place, do ". scripts/emc-environment" first, so man can find the EMC2 man pages
[19:07:05] <motioncontrol> ok i prove in this moment the fuction hal_param_bit_set, this fuction set un pin value whit in input have the name pin and the value pin is correct ?
[19:07:15] <jepler> looks like hal_param_bit_set doesn't have a manpage, but that's because its only legitimate use is in halcmd anyway
[19:07:16] <motioncontrol> int hal_param_bit_set(const char *name, int value)
[19:07:16] <motioncontrol> {
[19:07:16] <motioncontrol> return hal_param_set(name, HAL_BIT, &value);
[19:07:16] <motioncontrol> }
[19:07:51] <jmkasunich> what jepler said
[19:08:16] <jmkasunich> also, read hal.h, it documents all the public functions in the hal API, even if they don't have man pagesx
[19:08:22] <jmkasunich> -x
[19:11:22] <motioncontrol> i have pass char in argument 1(name) :halui.mode.auto , and pass at argument2(value) a integer value =1 , but the halui.mode.auto not change and the return the fuctionc is -3 because?
[19:12:10] <jepler> is halui.mode.auto a pin or a parameter?
[19:12:25] <motioncontrol> is a pin
[19:12:25] <jepler> what does the documentation (man halui) say?
[19:12:28] <eric_unterhausen> headline of the day "pub closed by holy hand grenade"
[19:12:43] <jepler> then "hal_param_bit_set" would not be a function that changes it
[19:12:52] <jepler> because pins are not parameters ("param" is short for "parameter")
[19:13:15] <jmkasunich> the return value of -3 is: #define HAL_INVAL -3/* invalid argument */
[19:13:25] <motioncontrol> ok jepler yes i understand you
[19:13:28] <jmkasunich> because the name you are passing is not the name of a pin
[19:13:54] <jepler> jmkasunich: you mean, is not the name of a parameter
[19:14:02] <dareposte> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgLj9lOwk
[19:14:03] <jmkasunich> right
[19:14:29] <dareposte> eric_unterhausen: that holy hand grenade?
[19:14:34] <eric_unterhausen> yes
[19:14:56] <eric_unterhausen> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5018294/Pub-evacuated-after-Monty-Python-prop-mistaken-for-grenade.html
[19:15:24] <jepler> the way you set the value of an input pin is by hooking it to an output pin with a signal. then when the output pin sets its value, the input pin gets its value.
[19:15:30] <jepler> not with a function call which takes the name of the pin
[19:15:31] <motioncontrol> i don.t see the fuction in hal.h for set the pin because only fuction for create a new pin because ?
[19:16:14] <jmkasunich> because that is not how you use pins
[19:16:34] <jepler> consider a standard stepper system: a signal such as "Xpos-cmd" connects output pin "axis.0.motor-pos-cmd" to "stepgen.0.position-cmd"
[19:17:23] <motioncontrol> exist a fuction for read ad write in a pin ?
[19:17:29] <jepler> NO!
[19:17:40] <jepler> at any rate, that's not how you generally want to affect pin values
[19:17:52] <jmkasunich> if you are asking this question, you do NOT understand HAL well enough to write a program that uses it
[19:17:55] <jepler> you want to affect an input pin's value by having an output pin which is connected to the input pin by a signal
[19:18:11] <jepler> then you change your output pin's value, and it simultaneously changes the signal's value and the input pin's value
[19:18:17] <jepler> because they are all stored at the same memory location
[19:19:43] <motioncontrol> one moment jepler.i want set the pin whit exsternal c program whith use the shared library , you confirm is no possible?
[19:20:29] <jepler> I am telling you that is the wrong way to think about your task
[19:20:45] <jepler> almost nothing is impossible, but there are many wrong ways to do a possible task
[19:21:28] <motioncontrol> you can hel me ?
[19:21:35] <motioncontrol> help me ?
[19:21:56] <jmkasunich> read and understand the HAL introduction and tutorial sections in the manual
[19:23:03] <jepler> halui.mode.auto is an *input* *pin*. The way to change the value of an input pin from a different component is indirect: you do it by giving that component an *output* *pin* which you assign the desired value at the right times
[19:23:13] <jepler> in your hal file, you use a "net" command to connect the two pins together with a signal
[19:23:14] <BigJohnT> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/devel/html//hal_intro.html
[19:23:38] <BigJohnT> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/devel/html//hal_tutorial.html
[19:24:13] <jepler> our documentation bot, BigJohnT, has helpfully provided you with several links to the documentation
[19:24:39] <BigJohnT> and http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/devel/html//hal_basic_hal.html
[19:24:52] <motioncontrol> ok i study the manual , but at some day please hel me for use the shared library for read and write hal pin . thanks for all
[19:25:01] <jmkasunich> NO
[19:25:17] <motioncontrol> bacause No
[19:25:43] <jmkasunich> you do not modify hal pins by calling the library
[19:26:01] <jepler> imagine that the realtime motion controller worked in the way you suggest
[19:26:10] <jepler> you'd have to hardcode the string "stepgen.0.motor-pos-cmd" inside it
[19:26:19] <jepler> but then you could only run one kind of machine, a stepper machine
[19:26:43] <jepler> you'd have to edit the source code of the motion controller to change to something else, like a servo machine that uses pid.0.command instead
[19:27:00] <jepler> and it would be inefficient, because each time you set a pin you would have to do a search for a matching pin by name
[19:27:12] <jmkasunich> your component declares a pin, and then it's code modifies that pin using "*(comp->the_pin) = 100",
[19:27:22] <jepler> the way hal is designed is very elegant and you would do better to understand it and stop asking for it to work in some way other than it does
[19:27:28] <jmkasunich> then you connect your pin(s) to halui's pins
[19:29:33] <motioncontrol> ok i understand .more thanks for help
[21:17:38] <Optic> is there a pin/signal in hal that lets you tell if a job is currently running?
[21:18:46] <BigJohnT> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/devel/html//gui_halui.html#r1_2_14
[21:20:15] <Optic> thanks, so halui.program.is-running ?
[21:20:34] <BigJohnT> yep AFAIK
[21:20:59] <Optic> awesome, thank you
[21:21:14] <BigJohnT> np
[21:23:25] <dareposte> One wrong way to get a knee mill off a trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BNWPQIKmdg
[21:30:05] <dareposte> but proof it eventually works
[21:30:11] <dareposte> http://www.nerdulator.net/mill1_.jpg
[21:30:13] <BigJohnT> need to borrow my cable ratchet thingy
[21:30:42] <dareposte> would've been handy
[21:34:10] <dareposte> wound up removing the head and the knee, and then using the truck to drag the casting to the end of the trailer to get it with the shop crane
[21:36:58] <BigJohnT> that works too... divide and conquer
[21:41:04] <dareposte> kind of abused the snot out of my shop crane, but it didn't break yet
[21:42:50] <BigJohnT> what ever you do don't spill your beer
[21:45:00] <dareposte> i try not to abuse my alcohol
[21:45:03] <dareposte> by spilling it that is
[21:45:42] <BigJohnT> always had it to your buddy so he can back way off and film
[21:45:54] <BigJohnT> had/hand
[21:47:03] <dareposte> its only a 1 ton shop crane, and fully extended is rated for 1/4 ton
[21:47:13] <dareposte> but it picked the knee, the head, and the casting
[21:47:38] <dareposte> and actually the whole assembly for a minute while we got the wood pallet out from under it
[21:47:48] <dareposte> so the safety factor is at least 4x
[21:48:08] <BigJohnT> what does your mill weigh
[21:48:29] <dareposte> 2000
[21:48:38] <dareposte> according to the shipping paper
[21:49:03] <BigJohnT> you were ok then so long as your buddy didn't lower it down on your foot
[21:49:51] <dareposte> yeah i guess so
[21:50:04] <dareposte> but at the fully extended crane arm it's only supposed to lift 500 lbs
[21:50:15] <dareposte> and it was flexing quite a bit
[21:50:34] <BigJohnT> heh
[21:51:34] <dareposte> and naturally the dog kept walking under the load
[21:51:58] <dareposte> trying to lay in the shade of the dangling mill
[21:52:04] <BigJohnT> we used to have a dog like that in the neighborhood
[21:52:44] <BigJohnT> he removed himself from the gene pool
[21:53:55] <dareposte> so often it happens that way
[21:55:48] <dareposte> if i had somewhere to park it i would just get a small fork lift and this would all be so much easier
[21:55:54] <dareposte> but then i would want a bigger machine
[21:56:15] <dareposte> its a never ending cycle
[22:10:48] <BigJohnT> you can rent forklifts...
[22:12:31] <dareposte> yeah i got a quote
[22:12:49] <dareposte> it was like $150 a day which isn't too bad, but they charge a $90 dropoff and $90 pickup fee
[22:13:10] <BigJohnT> ouch
[22:13:14] <dareposte> yeah
[22:13:31] <BigJohnT> here they just let you use a low rider trailer to haul it
[22:13:40] <dareposte> that would be nice
[22:13:54] <BigJohnT> the trailer is part of the rental fee...
[22:13:58] <dareposte> i only got a quote from two places, but they were so close i assumed ti was standard
[22:14:06] <dareposte> a bumper pull?
[22:14:11] <BigJohnT> yep
[22:14:33] <dareposte> electric trailer brakes?
[22:14:47] <BigJohnT> hyd brakes
[22:14:52] <BigJohnT> on the tounge
[22:14:58] <dareposte> ah a surge brake
[22:15:09] <dareposte> i guess that's enough
[22:15:18] <BigJohnT> yep and you don't use a S-10 to pull it either :)
[22:15:33] <LawrenceG> I found it quite hard to reverse up a hill with the surge break!
[22:15:40] <LawrenceG> brake
[22:15:48] <BigJohnT> these have a lock out for that
[22:16:02] <LawrenceG> yup... too late for me :}
[22:16:04] <BigJohnT> you put a pin in it when you back up
[22:16:08] <dareposte> my boat has a surge brake on it, it has an extra wire that you have to have wired in and it releases
[22:16:39] <dareposte> like an extra pin on the normal 4-pin connector
[22:16:55] <LawrenceG> every job is a learning experience
[22:17:19] <BigJohnT> no it is a pin you use to stop the surge brake from moving
[22:17:29] <BigJohnT> like a 1/4" pin
[22:17:47] <dareposte> handy
[22:18:05] <BigJohnT> yep, just don't leave it in when you take off
[22:19:18] <dareposte> the boat trailer has a little weird looking horseshoe shaped pin hanging on a wire, i guess that's what its for
[22:19:35] <BigJohnT> might be
[22:20:47] <alex_joni> good night all
[22:20:58] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT watches the blinky lights on the 5i20 led board
[22:21:02] <BigJohnT> night alex
[22:21:39] <dareposte> i've been looking for a power drawbar kit, but they all seem to cost nearly what the mill did :)
[22:22:14] <BigJohnT> I just use a hammer thingy with a socket in the other end for my manual mill
[22:22:38] <dareposte> sounds like it might be the best plan
[22:22:45] <BigJohnT> have you seen one?
[22:23:00] <dareposte> yeah
[22:23:05] <dareposte> i know what you mean at least
[22:23:33] <BigJohnT> works well for me anyhow
[22:23:35] <dareposte> it would be easy enough to get an air ratchet and rig it up with a 3-way valve I think
[22:23:55] <BigJohnT> I've seen some made around here
[22:24:04] <dareposte> from air ratchets?
[22:24:13] <BigJohnT> air impacts
[22:24:28] <dareposte> i didn't think you would need that much torque
[22:24:38] <dareposte> maybe a small one wouuld be fine
[22:24:46] <BigJohnT> they are real small ones
[22:25:12] <BigJohnT> fit in your hand with a fwd rev lever
[22:26:07] <dareposte> maybe worthwhile then
[22:26:50] <dareposte> i saw something called a quick-change tool holder
[22:26:57] <dareposte> but haven't figured out how thats different from a drawbar yet
[22:27:07] <dareposte> maybe a special type of collet
[22:27:18] <BigJohnT> unless your doing production you don't need it
[22:27:46] <BigJohnT> I have a quick change on my bridgeport it is quite different than a r-8
[22:28:18] <dareposte> how so?
[22:29:20] <BigJohnT> I can mount all my tools in the holders then set the Z offset for each one and change them out during a run with a known Z location for each tool
[22:29:37] <dareposte> that's handy
[22:29:51] <BigJohnT> you can get a r8 adapter but the holders are pricey
[22:29:59] <dareposte> the tool holders?
[22:30:23] <BigJohnT> this is a collet holder http://www.tools-n-gizmos.com/store/agora.cgi?user2=yes&cart_id=2485939.24877*KL3wN2&p_id=10093&xm=on&ppinc=1a
[22:30:48] <BigJohnT> the "ears" locate the holder in the master holder
[22:31:37] <dareposte> i see
[22:31:47] <dareposte> so the spindle is not even an r8 taper spindle then, its something special
[22:32:04] <BigJohnT> or you use an adapter
[22:32:28] <BigJohnT> mine is a kwik switch spindle
[22:32:33] <dareposte> i saw some conversion where it was a big spring washer which kept an r8 1/2" collet closed until an air cylinder opened it, and the tools were set in something similar to what you showed, but just a 1/2" with a shoulder on it
[22:33:06] <dareposte> so all the mills and drills were basically adapted to a 1/2" shank
[22:33:36] <BigJohnT> http://cgi.ebay.com/Kwik-Switch-200-Bridgeport-Quill-model-J1-and-2J-heads_W0QQitemZ290304537557QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item290304537557&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
[22:33:39] <dareposte> wouldn't work so well with big fly cutters, but it was on a smallish machine
[22:34:24] <dareposte> cool
[22:34:34] <dareposte> it would be nice to not have to set tool heights all the time
[22:35:17] <BigJohnT> I set them for each job
[22:35:37] <BigJohnT> then remove the tools usually from the holders
[22:36:13] <BigJohnT> but unless your doing production work it don't pay to have them but the cool factor is up there
[22:37:03] <dareposte> yeah
[22:37:22] <dareposte> if you were running batches it would probably be worthwhile
[22:37:51] <dareposte> how do you set the tool height otherwise, with a fixture or something?
[22:38:03] <BigJohnT> I easily have $1500 worth of holders and $1000 worth of collets for my one cnc mill
[22:38:15] <BigJohnT> no, I use a piece of paper :)
[22:39:17] <BigJohnT> I put the part in the vise and slam the tool holder up into the quill then Z down with my MPG until I just touch the paper then hit my offset button
[22:39:43] <BigJohnT> if I had EMC on the mill then I would use the Stuart method
[22:40:07] <dareposte> whats the stuart method?
[22:40:14] <dareposte> * dareposte man stuart_method
[22:40:35] <BigJohnT> use a dowel pin to find the tool height above the part
[22:41:17] <BigJohnT> lower the tool to below the height of the dowel then slowly raise the tool until the dowel just rolls under and set the offset
[22:41:53] <dareposte> that's basically how i do it on my lathe... i used to use a piece of paper but found it wasn't repeatable enough
[22:42:05] <BigJohnT> he told cradek and then cradek told me :)
[22:42:23] <BigJohnT> on my lathe I take a cut then measure and set my dial
[22:42:25] <dareposte> i use a 5/16" hss tool bit blank and then touch off to the tool table and add 5/16"
[22:42:46] <dareposte> that's probably the best way
[22:42:47] <BigJohnT> same method on the mill
[22:42:49] <dareposte> your way
[22:42:53] <Optic> BigJohn: that halui pin was the right thing. Our system now turns off the laser when you pause or stop a job :)
[22:43:04] <BigJohnT> Sweet! Optic
[22:43:19] <BigJohnT> I'm the doc bot :)
[22:43:54] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT needs to go fling pizza dough into the air and make the wife laugh
[22:43:56] <dareposte> i have a tgp piece of tool steel i chuck in the 3-jaw, jog out to be pretty close, then inch up to where the is a very very slight drag on the 5/16" tool bit when i pass it between the tgp and the tool, then touch off to tool table and set the value
[22:44:39] <BigJohnT> talk to you guys later
[22:44:49] <dareposte> have a good night
[22:45:01] <BigJohnT> you too
[23:15:05] <JymmmEMC> Heh, I use a flashlight to sett height
[23:15:25] <JymmmEMC> I find it far more accurate than a piece of paper
[23:16:09] <JymmmEMC> At least for me that is
[23:30:59] <dareposte> that works too, i guess for a mill?
[23:33:00] <JymmmEMC> I guess for anything you can shine I light on
[23:33:49] <dareposte> so you set tool height at every tool change?
[23:34:06] <dareposte> i'm trying to figure out a method for my mill
[23:34:13] <dareposte> i'm leaning towards r8 end mill holders
[23:34:34] <JymmmEMC> Well, I do, because I dont have tool holders (router)
[23:34:38] <dareposte> oh yeah
[23:34:49] <dareposte> hows that work with emc, it won't let you jog during tool change will it
[23:35:04] <dareposte> i guess use a bunch of separate programs
[23:36:01] <JymmmEMC> Usually I just separate the g-code into seperate files
[23:36:26] <dareposte> i see
[23:37:59] <dareposte> that works pretty well i guess
[23:41:44] <dareposte> for some reason i always want to automate everything
[23:41:58] <JymmmEMC> I would too, but $$$
[23:42:09] <dareposte> it must be my error
[23:43:24] <dareposte> yeah stuff gets pricy pretty quick
[23:43:54] <dareposte> i need to set up a toolpost grinder on my lathe and figure out how to make some of those fancy tapers
[23:45:19] <dareposte> it might be moderately effective to turn it to rough size out of oil hardening tool steel, harden it, then finish by grinding the taper
[23:47:44] <dareposte> or it might be a miserable failure
[23:47:46] <dareposte> hard to say