#emc | Logs for 2009-03-09

[00:00:42] <eric_unterhausen> i didn't realize that was a link
[00:01:23] <bglackin> Judedude - Paste the full lin next time - people notice it faster )
[00:02:05] <judedude> ok www.pastebin.ca/1356188
[00:04:16] <eric_unterhausen> where is the wiki page about setting up parports?
[00:04:29] <fenn> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?NetMos
[00:04:39] <jmkasunich> judedude: regarding the networking - you want to get the CNC router going - we can help you do that a lot better if you are talking to us FROM the CNC router, than if you are jogging back and forth between house and garage
[00:04:54] <eric_unterhausen> why didn't I think to search for netmos when I wanted to set up a parallel port?
[00:05:45] <judedude> All right both computers are in the house now so I won't be leaving.
[00:05:46] <fenn> certainly the wiki could have a better table of contents
[00:06:07] <eric_unterhausen> judedude: did you try 1450 as the address of the port?
[00:07:27] <judedude> no i used a400 as directed by the setup inst.
[00:07:34] <eric_unterhausen> the fact that lspci reports the ports in descending order is disturbing to me
[00:07:40] <judedude> I'll send that to the bin as well.
[00:08:14] <jmkasunich> judedude: line 31 and following in the lspci pastebin are the addresses you should try
[00:08:17] <fenn> where do you get a400 from?
[00:09:16] <eric_unterhausen> the instructions, can't you read?
[00:09:33] <eric_unterhausen> sheesh
[00:09:34] <fenn> doesn't say a400 anywhere on the wiki page, so i guess he must have some other instructions
[00:10:04] <judedude> they are in route
[00:10:44] <fenn> anyway i think 1450 is the address you want
[00:10:46] <eric_unterhausen> someone was on here recently with parport problems
[00:11:13] <eric_unterhausen> I think the fact that they are in descending order may throw a monkey wrench in the wiki page instructions
[00:11:28] <judedude> I can try 1450. Should the original parport be disabled ?
[00:11:40] <eric_unterhausen> shouldn't matter
[00:13:38] <fenn> well if 1450 doesn't work, try 1448, 1440 1430 1458 1460
[00:13:41] <judedude> well my cd doesn't seem to want to read the disk so the instruction i used will take a bit more time.
[00:13:54] <jmkasunich> cd?, disk?
[00:14:09] <jmkasunich> are you transferring stuff from one computer to another with CDs?
[00:14:12] <eric_unterhausen> 1430 isn't going to work, that one can be skipped
[00:14:25] <jmkasunich> somebody send that man a piece of cat5
[00:14:34] <eric_unterhausen> I need some too
[00:14:49] <eric_unterhausen> I have 1000' of cat 5, and I can't find it
[00:14:55] <jmkasunich> bummer
[00:14:56] <judedude> I have 100' but i am not using it until I make the router go.
[00:15:14] <fenn> yeah, stick to your principles!
[00:15:17] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich sighs
[00:15:28] <jmkasunich> a linux computer is only half a computer without a net connection
[00:15:35] <jmkasunich> all the software comes from the internet
[00:15:39] <jmkasunich> all the documentation is on the internet
[00:15:43] <fenn> that guy jmkasunich is just an evil hacker who wants to steal all your porn
[00:15:45] <jmkasunich> all the user support is on the internet
[00:15:51] <jmkasunich> all the updates are on the internet
[00:15:52] <cradek> there's no time to sharpen this axe! Look at all the wood I have to cut!
[00:16:03] <judedude> It has a net connection now. Just not in the garage.
[00:16:32] <eric_unterhausen> getting a network to the garage can be a bit of a travail
[00:16:42] <jmkasunich> router and motors and drives and breakout box are in the garage, right?
[00:16:57] <jmkasunich> do you have any way to test the parport with the computer in the house?
[00:17:09] <jmkasunich> meter, etc?
[00:17:32] <judedude> Yes.
[00:18:22] <jmkasunich> so the CNC computer is now networked, and you can test it in the house
[00:18:26] <jmkasunich> so talk to us from that computer
[00:19:59] <judedude> here is the command I used per the instructions /sbin/modprobe parport_pc io=0x3f8,a400 irq=4,18
[00:20:51] <jmkasunich> we've asked several times what instructions?
[00:21:10] <jmkasunich> parport_pc is NOT emc2's parallel port driver
[00:21:46] <jmkasunich> I for one have absolutely no idea what you are trying to do
[00:22:01] <jmkasunich> if you'd post the URL for whatever instructions you are reading it would help get us on the same page
[00:22:51] <judedude> Be patient the CN computer that is net worked wont read the cd in the drive where the instruction live.
[00:23:13] <jmkasunich> I'm very confused
[00:24:06] <jmkasunich> are you reading instructions from the web somewhere? or a local file on the CNC computer? or a local file on the computer you are talking to us from right now?
[00:25:46] <judedude> The instructions are on a disk that cam with the parport. I am not sure why my cd drive doesn't work. Perhaps a well placed explosive will fix things.
[00:26:05] <eric_unterhausen> don't worry about those instructions
[00:26:08] <jmkasunich> oh, instructions for the parport?
[00:26:36] <jmkasunich> like eric says, they can probably be thrown in the trash... 95% chance they were written for windows anyway
[00:27:00] <judedude> how do I get the pdf file to you guys.
[00:27:21] <jmkasunich> this is a pdf that came with the parport?
[00:27:48] <judedude> yep. Its under the linux installation.
[00:27:52] <jmkasunich> try http://filebin.ca/
[00:32:12] <judedude> here it is http://filebin.ca/qjpuwg/LinuxInstallationGuide.pdf
[00:33:12] <jmkasunich> btw, I wasn't even sure there was such a thing as filebin - I just guessed and googled, then ctrl-C the link from my browser and ctrl-V it here
[00:33:25] <jmkasunich> "use the internet, luke" ;-)
[00:33:47] <judedude> eric do I need to undo what I did using the instruction ?
[00:34:00] <eric_unterhausen> probably
[00:34:28] <jmkasunich> judedude: ok, now I understand what you did
[00:34:57] <judedude> Like I said anyone have a gernade.
[00:35:11] <jmkasunich> their example using a400 is because their lspci (fig 2) has a400
[00:35:24] <jmkasunich> your lspci has a different address
[00:35:26] <eric_unterhausen> you don't have to undo since you didn't affect the actual port
[00:35:38] <judedude> great
[00:35:48] <jmkasunich> the entire modprobe parport_pc thing is for installing the port as a regular printer port
[00:35:51] <eric_unterhausen> it would just be rmmod parport_pc anyway
[00:36:02] <jmkasunich> you don't need/want that, you want to use it for EMC2
[00:36:11] <jmkasunich> so you will use our driver, not parport_pc
[00:37:07] <judedude> OK I am a bit fuzzy with the whole Linux driver thing. Do I need to do anything more than try the address listed like 1460.
[00:37:57] <jmkasunich> somewhere in your config files you have a line that looks something like 'loadrt parport cfg="blahblahblah" '
[00:38:11] <jmkasunich> you want to substitute 1460 for blahblahblah
[00:38:29] <jmkasunich> if 1460 doesn't work, try the other addresses that lspci showed you
[00:39:11] <judedude> And where does this loadrt live.
[00:39:27] <jmkasunich> in a hal file that is part of your emc2 configuration
[00:39:35] <jmkasunich> exactly where depends on you
[00:39:46] <judedude> I can use the wizzard to fix ?
[00:39:49] <jmkasunich> did you start with on of our sample configs, and copy it to another directory?
[00:40:02] <jmkasunich> or did you start with stepconf (the wizard)?
[00:40:05] <judedude> Nope created using the wizzard.
[00:40:23] <jmkasunich> did the wizard ask you for a port address?
[00:40:50] <jmkasunich> I've never used it for real, and only played with it a long time ago....
[00:41:03] <judedude> yes it does i changed it to a400 before
[00:41:21] <jmkasunich> ok, then you _should_ be able to run the wizard again and change that address
[00:42:09] <judedude> is there a way to check the port aside from emc
[00:42:27] <jmkasunich> not really
[00:42:37] <jmkasunich> parports are very simple
[00:42:39] <jmkasunich> that is good and bad
[00:43:00] <jmkasunich> good in that simple means easily used for non-standard stuff (otherwise all it could do is print)
[00:43:30] <jmkasunich> but bad because there is no 'intelligence' out there, so nothing that the software can say "hello, are you there?" to
[00:44:19] <eric_unterhausen> lspci says it works
[00:44:42] <jmkasunich> lspci shows about 5 addresses, I dunno how to figure out the correct one
[00:44:48] <jmkasunich> other than trying it
[00:45:12] <eric_unterhausen> the wiki page says use the third address for the on-board
[00:45:31] <eric_unterhausen> but since then, something has changed
[00:46:19] <judedude> eric super cnc sluth
[00:46:40] <judedude> 1450 it is
[00:48:40] <judedude> eric where did you find this on the page ?
[00:49:27] <eric_unterhausen> you mean in your lspci?
[00:50:16] <judedude> the wiki page. isee it on lspci
[00:50:21] <eric_unterhausen> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?NetMos
[00:51:09] <judedude> 1450 only generated 2 errors. limit 0 and limit 2. should hve been all three
[00:52:36] <eric_unterhausen> how are you testing?
[00:52:46] <eric_unterhausen> nothing hooked up?
[00:54:51] <judedude> yes i know need to network in the garage
[00:55:21] <judedude> What about the section on the read and write does this need to be done also ?
[00:56:15] <eric_unterhausen> you're talking about the wizard?
[00:57:36] <judedude> no. I read the wiki page a bit further. Also in the example it shows 0x preceeding the 4 digit address. I didn't use that I think i should.
[00:57:54] <eric_unterhausen> yes
[00:58:05] <judedude> Well this explains a lot.
[00:58:17] <eric_unterhausen> should have mentioned that
[00:59:07] <judedude> who was to know that I am so green
[01:05:07] <bglackin> Welcome to the green crew - fortunately there are good skippers driving our ship.
[01:05:12] <judedude> Testing using the first address shows the step and direction work.
[01:05:25] <eric_unterhausen> that's good
[01:06:49] <judedude> I have 5v on pin 10, 11, 12 and 13.
[01:07:26] <eric_unterhausen> that sounds right to me, they are all inputs, correct?
[01:08:02] <judedude> should be.
[01:10:45] <judedude> OK I think things are in a position where they can be tested tomorrow. SO eric I don't need to rediredt the read and write
[01:11:11] <eric_unterhausen> what does the read and write say?
[01:11:19] <judedude> This stuff addf parport.1.read base-thread 1
[01:11:37] <eric_unterhausen> that should be ok
[01:11:41] <judedude> addf parport.1.write base-thread -1
[01:12:12] <judedude> Very good thanks for all your help !! I'll let you know tomorrow if it works as expected.
[01:12:52] <jmkasunich> the addf lines shouldn't need changedf
[01:12:54] <jmkasunich> changed
[01:13:23] <judedude> Yippie !
[01:27:57] <dareposte> does emc do gang tooling?
[01:28:29] <dareposte> it seems like tool offsets could do it
[01:29:26] <eric_unterhausen> is that where there are multiple spindles?
[01:34:42] <toastydeath> no, gang tooling is a lathe thing
[01:34:56] <toastydeath> instead of a turret, you have a very long X axis with T slots
[01:35:07] <toastydeath> and you attach all the tools in a line on the X axis tooling plate
[01:35:14] <jmkasunich> sure, emc can do that
[01:35:24] <jmkasunich> you just specify the appropriate tool offsets
[01:35:30] <toastydeath> any lathe can, all you need to do is change how you call you toold
[01:35:32] <toastydeath> *tools
[01:35:47] <toastydeath> instead of T0101, T0202, it's T0101, t0102, t0103
[01:35:58] <toastydeath> or i guess H words in emc
[01:36:56] <toastydeath> then the next time you call the machine to move, it'll be using the next tool.
[01:39:06] <toastydeath> although if you wind up buying a turning center, i'd recommend not using the turret-available offsets (offsets 1-8, or 1-12 or whateveR)
[01:39:58] <dareposte> like t01m01
[01:40:06] <toastydeath> ?
[01:40:13] <dareposte> i'm looking pretty hard at that turning center still
[01:40:33] <dareposte> i found out my truck won't tow it home, the trailer weighs 3000 lbs + 4500lbs for the center
[01:40:42] <dareposte> only rated to tow 5000 lbs
[01:40:55] <toastydeath> owned
[01:40:56] <dareposte> d'oh
[01:41:10] <dareposte> gotta beg borrow or steal a bigger truck i guess
[01:41:15] <dareposte> with electric trailer brakes
[01:41:18] <toastydeath> also t01 m01 is the mill method/emc method for changing tools, any turning center you buy will not use that syntax
[01:41:27] <dareposte> not sure how i feel about towing 7500 lbs behind a 4000 lb vehicle :)
[01:41:36] <toastydeath> lol
[01:41:40] <toastydeath> live dangerously, i guess
[01:41:47] <dareposte> yeah
[01:42:06] <dareposte> my dad has a new tundra which can supposedly tow 10k, but no electric brake controller
[01:42:13] <toastydeath> owned
[01:42:49] <dareposte> i did talk to a rigger though
[01:42:55] <dareposte> see if they will fetch it for me
[01:43:14] <dareposte> and a friend that has a diesel duelly with the brake controller, if i can talk him out of his truck for a week
[01:43:20] <toastydeath> lol
[01:44:15] <dareposte> otherwise i may be forced to scale back my plans slightly
[01:46:18] <dareposte> or at least find a smaller turning center
[01:46:29] <dareposte> but as turning centers go, 5000 lbs is pretty small it seems!
[01:46:38] <toastydeath> yes
[01:46:58] <toastydeath> 4000-5000 lbs is what i'd expect a 16x40 manual lathe to weigh in at
[01:47:15] <toastydeath> a good one, anyway
[01:47:28] <dareposte> i was just looking at them actually
[01:47:32] <dareposte> 3900 lbs
[01:47:36] <toastydeath> what make
[01:47:42] <dareposte> some import
[01:47:45] <toastydeath> ah
[01:47:58] <dareposte> "tool room" lathe
[01:48:17] <toastydeath> yeah, ignore that term.
[01:48:27] <toastydeath> it used to mean something, it doesn't anymore.
[01:48:31] <dareposte> yeah
[01:48:42] <jmkasunich> with imports, "tool room" means "not rugged enough for production"
[01:48:47] <toastydeath> hahahahaha
[01:48:48] <toastydeath> a+
[01:48:54] <jmkasunich> it used to mean "higher quality"
[01:49:30] <dareposte> i have a 12x36 manual lathe collecting dust
[01:49:48] <dareposte> bench top
[01:50:17] <dareposte> i would like to find a foundry that can do a one off casting for me
[01:50:26] <dareposte> without ripping a new one in the price dept
[01:52:01] <toastydeath> tool room was an actual specification of minimum accuracy
[01:52:30] <toastydeath> nowdays just get a 10ee or a hlv-h
[01:52:49] <toastydeath> also good luck with that casting thing
[01:53:03] <dareposte> what's a 10ee
[01:53:05] <dareposte> or hlv-h
[01:53:18] <toastydeath> the two most accurate manual lathes
[01:53:27] <toastydeath> monarch 10ee, hardinge hlv-h
[01:53:34] <toastydeath> they're both 10x20 machines
[01:53:43] <dareposte> ahh
[01:53:53] <dareposte> i saw several hardinge's about that size
[01:53:57] <dareposte> one with a collet closer
[01:54:13] <dareposte> only 1000 lbs though
[01:54:28] <toastydeath> the hardinge lathes are very light machines
[01:54:30] <toastydeath> they're accurate, not big
[01:54:39] <toastydeath> the monarch machines ARE heavy, though
[01:54:53] <toastydeath> they don't have the fancy threading thing that the hlv has though
[01:55:16] <dareposte> oh if i got one it would get cnc controls for sure
[01:55:38] <dareposte> these hardintg'es look like they are missing their carriage though
[01:55:49] <toastydeath> which hardinge
[01:56:06] <toastydeath> the DV-59 and DSM-59 don't have carriages
[01:56:20] <dareposte> what do they do then?
[01:56:26] <dareposte> it was a dv-69
[01:56:27] <dareposte> 59
[01:56:37] <dareposte> here's a spindle off an old hardinge for $39.00
[01:56:39] <toastydeath> they're second op lathes, they have stuff that bolts to the bedway and stays put
[01:56:46] <toastydeath> most have a turret
[01:56:57] <toastydeath> then there's a lever slide for cutof and chamfering, etc
[01:57:19] <dareposte> oh
[01:57:46] <toastydeath> if you set up a turret lathe/first op to do the front end of a part, you can use the second op machine to finish the stuff on the other end
[01:58:29] <dareposte> i see
[01:58:38] <dareposte> so just a tailstock and assorted specialty tools then
[01:58:46] <toastydeath> once you get past 5 parts to about 50-300, depending on what you need, is when they come in handy
[01:58:54] <toastydeath> i use one to deburr this part i cut out on a mill.
[01:59:02] <toastydeath> yeah, exactly
[01:59:20] <dareposte> here's a 10EE for 1250
[01:59:26] <dareposte> $1299 i mean
[01:59:43] <toastydeath> i'd be skeptical of a 10ee for $1299.
[01:59:53] <dareposte> from 1943 it says :)
[02:00:01] <toastydeath> yeah, they're all very old machines.
[02:00:04] <dareposte> about 10 years older than my dad
[02:00:22] <toastydeath> lol
[02:00:44] <toastydeath> i'd be concerend about any 10ee under 3-4k, and any hlv-h under 7-8k
[02:01:28] <toastydeath> it would also be a waste to put them under cnc control
[02:01:34] <toastydeath> (obviously in my opinion, anyway)
[02:01:39] <dareposte> yeah
[02:01:51] <dareposte> i'm just not much for spinning hand wheels
[02:02:08] <dareposte> http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=21-359-020&searchtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50&currentPageIndex=0&searchNAP=
[02:02:27] <dareposte> but i bet as soon as you took out the carriage to make it cnc, you would probably lose a lot of the advantage that the a hardinge has
[02:02:33] <toastydeath> wow, that machine kinda looks like a wreck
[02:02:54] <toastydeath> but it's probably just dirty
[02:03:04] <dareposte> most of them are
[02:03:15] <toastydeath> what do you mean by taking out the carriage
[02:03:28] <dareposte> add screws and servos
[02:03:34] <dareposte> take out the lead screws
[02:03:49] <toastydeath> yes, that would ruin a lot of the advantage since you'd be putting in far less accurate screws
[02:05:03] <toastydeath> it's pretty easy to hit .0005 without trying on an HLV-H
[02:05:12] <dareposte> i'm wondering if a used import would be a good seed for a casting
[02:05:22] <toastydeath> lol, no
[02:05:39] <toastydeath> there are expensive imports that use a mori seiki pattern, those are good
[02:06:04] <toastydeath> but they also cost 8000-9000 for a 15/16 x 40/50 machine
[02:06:08] <dareposte> seriously the import castings on some of the bigger lathes don't seem too bad
[02:06:15] <toastydeath> right, on the bigger lathes
[02:06:21] <dareposte> i'm thinking a 13x40
[02:06:42] <toastydeath> i can almost guarantee you that anything under a 16x## has a flimsy casting
[02:06:52] <dareposte> really
[02:07:00] <toastydeath> in an import, absolutely
[02:07:25] <dareposte> i'm not convinced yet
[02:07:25] <toastydeath> however, it's still a lathe and people do lots of good work on those machines.
[02:08:05] <toastydeath> go to like, grizzly, and look at the size difference between a 14x40 and a 16x40
[02:08:24] <toastydeath> for one, the spindle centerline to bed distance is higher than the width of the bed
[02:08:31] <toastydeath> on the 14"
[02:08:38] <dareposte> oh yeah
[02:08:41] <dareposte> i see what you mean there
[02:08:43] <toastydeath> the weight difference is enormous
[02:08:50] <toastydeath> 2000-2500 lbs vs. 4000-6000
[02:09:18] <toastydeath> and the spindle in a 16" lathe is gigantic - it'll be like a D-6, versus a D-3 or D-4
[02:10:01] <toastydeath> the 16" lathes use a pattern originally designed by mori seiki, a particular manual lathe which is one of the best and most accurate larger, late model manual lathes
[02:10:09] <dareposte> i need to find some good educational materials on spindle sizing
[02:10:13] <dareposte> the A vs D series
[02:10:23] <jmkasunich> http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=80-372-012&searchtable=2&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50&currentPageIndex=0&searchNAP=
[02:10:28] <toastydeath> obviously the quality of an import will depend on the spit and polishj applied
[02:10:41] <toastydeath> but the base casting and all the components are very rigid on the 16"
[02:10:41] <jmkasunich> 10EE
[02:11:01] <toastydeath> i'd like a 10ee =(
[02:11:07] <toastydeath> dareposte: what do you want to know about them
[02:11:15] <dareposte> just get a feel for them
[02:11:25] <dareposte> understand the differences, because apparently they are important
[02:11:25] <jmkasunich> toastydeath: I wish I had room for a 10EE
[02:11:31] <toastydeath> A is a bolt on, D is camlock
[02:11:34] <toastydeath> they're almost identical otherwise
[02:11:38] <dareposte> so D is better?
[02:11:40] <jmkasunich> I live close to HGR, I've seen literally 10 or more come and go at prices I could afford
[02:11:47] <toastydeath> D is quicker to change, A is more rigid
[02:12:06] <toastydeath> A is found on production machines, D is found on toolroom/engine lathes
[02:12:13] <toastydeath> (usually)
[02:12:30] <dareposte> so the spindle i'm familiar with is a threaded nose
[02:12:33] <toastydeath> they're both very similarly dimensioned, with the same short taper
[02:12:41] <dareposte> it takes a back plate, and the chuck goes on the back plate
[02:12:56] <dareposte> the A and D series sound like they don't need a back plate
[02:13:04] <toastydeath> it depends on the chuck.
[02:13:05] <dareposte> just direct bolt/cam lock on
[02:13:18] <toastydeath> some chucks are intergally A or D taper, others are blank backs and you can fit either one.
[02:13:36] <dareposte> i see
[02:13:46] <dareposte> so what does the 4/6/1-4 type numbers stand for
[02:13:50] <dareposte> like a D1-4
[02:13:51] <toastydeath> ?
[02:14:00] <dareposte> i'm pretty sure i've seen that spec'd before
[02:14:06] <toastydeath> D1 refers to the camlock pattern, 4 is the size
[02:14:13] <toastydeath> D means a camlock, 1st pattern, size 4
[02:14:18] <dareposte> is the size in inches?
[02:14:21] <toastydeath> no
[02:14:32] <dareposte> or just an arbitrary size based on teh number of marbles that would fit in it if it was hollow or something
[02:14:35] <toastydeath> it's roughly four inches, but it's not exact - you have to look at the spindle nose charts.
[02:14:40] <dareposte> okay
[02:15:11] <toastydeath> I don't think there's a D2 spindle, if there is it's fairly rare
[02:15:32] <toastydeath> A1/A2 is when you have to watch out, A2 chucks will bolt on to an A1 spindle, but A1 chucks will not bolt to an A2 spindle
[02:15:58] <toastydeath> iirc anyway
[02:16:17] <dareposte> confusing, i just need to go to a machinery dealer and browse all day some time
[02:16:31] <toastydeath> there's a list out there somewhere, maybe on lathes.co.uk
[02:16:39] <dareposte> good idea
[02:16:53] <toastydeath> it has all the dimensions for L, A, and D series tapers
[02:17:03] <dareposte> so maybe an import casting from a 16x40 would be okay?
[02:17:28] <toastydeath> yeah, if it looks monsterous, with three levers in a row on the headstock.
[02:17:35] <toastydeath> and has the D-6 spindle
[02:17:53] <toastydeath> the spindle taper really is the quick way to tell how big an import lathe is.
[02:18:14] <toastydeath> D-6, D-8, you are probably looking at a very solid machine at the least.
[02:18:14] <dareposte> http://grizzly.com/products/16-x-40-3-Phase-Gunsmith-Metal-Lathe/G0509G
[02:18:38] <toastydeath> no, not that one.
[02:18:39] <dareposte> only a D1-6 spindle
[02:19:16] <toastydeath> http://www.grizzly.com/products/16-x-60-3-Phase-Metal-Lathe/G0494
[02:19:59] <toastydeath> you caught me totally off guard with that "gunsmith" lathe, i haven't seen that import model before
[02:20:14] <toastydeath> so i guess the spindle isn't such a good indicator as i thought it was
[02:20:56] <toastydeath> http://www.grizzly.com/outlet/18-x-60-Precision-Machine-Shop-Lathe/G5962
[02:21:44] <toastydeath> that 16x60 is one i'd feel pretty good about buying
[02:22:25] <toastydeath> 7.5 hp, 11 3/4" bed width to a 8" spindle/bed CL
[02:23:25] <toastydeath> good speed range, too
[02:27:21] <toastydeath> although it doesn't look like it comes with anything, so i'd probably go for the other one that comes with a ton of stuff
[02:27:45] <toastydeath> and is cheaper, to boot
[02:29:20] <dareposte> cool
[02:29:51] <dareposte> 5300 lbs
[02:30:12] <dareposte> "freight cost includes a $7.50 fuel surcharge" lol
[02:30:17] <toastydeath> hahahah
[02:30:55] <dareposte> hey its actually free shipping though
[02:31:18] <toastydeath> that's hot
[02:32:33] <dareposte> its a D1-8 spindle?
[02:32:50] <dareposte> see i really don't need all that gearing and crap though
[02:32:50] <toastydeath> heck yes.
[02:32:55] <toastydeath> ?
[02:32:59] <dareposte> i wonder if I could just get a bare casting brought in
[02:33:19] <dareposte> if i did something like that I'd put an ac servo on the spindle, and strip the rest out for screws and servos
[02:33:39] <dareposte> or a machined casting
[02:33:44] <toastydeath> oh
[02:33:44] <dareposte> with the ways and carriage on it
[02:33:49] <toastydeath> you need to look around for an old cnc lathe
[02:33:51] <toastydeath> with no control.
[02:33:56] <dareposte> yeah
[02:33:57] <toastydeath> is really what you're looking for.
[02:34:00] <dareposte> i know
[02:34:03] <dareposte> with a big tool changer
[02:34:12] <toastydeath> they made, those, you know, and they are on ebay
[02:34:27] <toastydeath> just have to look through all the "lathe" listings =/
[02:34:58] <dareposte> maybe an old slant bed
[02:35:03] <jmkasunich> http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=05-599-001&searchtable=2&sortExpression=wbprice&SortASC=Yes&pageSize=50&currentPageIndex=0&searchNAP=
[02:35:07] <toastydeath> okuma, leblond, and mazak all made flat bed lathes with toolchangers
[02:35:08] <jmkasunich> http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=20-933-010&searchtable=2&sortExpression=wbprice&SortASC=Yes&pageSize=50&currentPageIndex=0&searchNAP=
[02:35:09] <toastydeath> back in like the 60's
[02:35:23] <jmkasunich> http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=80-287-001&searchtable=2&sortExpression=wbprice&SortASC=Yes&pageSize=50&currentPageIndex=0&searchNAP=
[02:35:29] <jmkasunich> http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=80-400-002&searchtable=2&sortExpression=wbprice&SortASC=Yes&pageSize=50&currentPageIndex=0&searchNAP=
[02:35:36] <toastydeath> jmkasunich to the rescue
[02:35:44] <dareposte> um 15000 lbs lol
[02:35:47] <dareposte> that first one
[02:35:50] <dareposte> i actually looked at it
[02:36:02] <dareposte> 2nd one is 13k lbs
[02:36:22] <jmkasunich> interesting, they are sorted by price, weight seems to go the other way
[02:36:27] <jmkasunich> last one is 11K
[02:36:32] <dareposte> yeah the bigger they get the less someone wants them
[02:36:41] <dareposte> for the current market at least
[02:36:51] <eric_unterhausen> jmkasunich: have you ever seen a sandblasting cabinet there?
[02:37:01] <jmkasunich> eric_unterhausen: never looked
[02:37:06] <jmkasunich> there is so much stuff.....
[02:37:19] <dareposte> yeah they had a big blasting cabinet there, looked like a gigantic one
[02:37:24] <dareposte> and a saw i wanted too
[02:37:33] <jmkasunich> dareposte: you were there? or just looking at the website?
[02:37:37] <dareposte> website
[02:37:40] <jmkasunich> ah
[02:37:42] <dareposte> i'm going up there on tuesday/wednesday though
[02:37:45] <dareposte> with a 3000lb trailer
[02:37:56] <dareposte> 6 hour drive from here
[02:38:02] <eric_unterhausen> dareposte: what did they call it on the website?
[02:38:09] <dareposte> bead blasting i think
[02:38:18] <jmkasunich> dareposte: where are you coming from?
[02:38:21] <dareposte> lexington ky
[02:38:26] <eric_unterhausen> thanks
[02:38:33] <jmkasunich> you know they are open on saturdays now, right?
[02:38:42] <dareposte> no i didn't
[02:38:47] <dareposte> only the third saturday of the month i thought
[02:38:51] <eric_unterhausen> sandblasting sand is way overpriced
[02:38:58] <jmkasunich> every saturday in 2009
[02:39:04] <dareposte> the best sand i've found for that is the kiddy play sand, fine mesh
[02:39:05] <jmkasunich> 8 am to 1pm
[02:39:09] <dareposte> oh cool
[02:39:25] <jmkasunich> if you decide to come on a sat, let me know
[02:39:25] <eric_unterhausen> I mean at HGR
[02:39:28] <dareposte> that muratech is up there i'm going to look at
[02:39:38] <dareposte> i'm concerned about the cylinder ways though
[02:39:52] <dareposte> i'm going to print the pictures and take them to work tomorrow and see if any of the powertrain guys know its history
[02:40:04] <dareposte> i determined it is an old toyota production machine, and came out of my facility
[02:40:11] <dareposte> scrapped in november 2008
[02:40:17] <dareposte> "scrapped" to the auction that is
[02:41:21] <dareposte> jmkasunich: I may delay my trip to saturday then
[02:41:37] <dareposte> I have the problem of finding a vehicle to tow the trailer I found, and a piece of machine on it
[02:41:37] <jmkasunich> only problem is the 1pm closing time
[02:41:43] <dareposte> my sister lives in columbus
[02:41:44] <jmkasunich> you'd have to get up very very early
[02:41:46] <dareposte> its about half way i think
[02:42:38] <dareposte> maybe go up and stay at her house on friday night, and get up there early on saturday
[02:47:37] <dareposte> how about this one?? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370167397899
[02:47:41] <toastydeath> party party
[02:48:52] <dareposte> two turrets, too
[02:48:55] <dareposte> heaven
[02:49:18] <toastydeath> do it if you can
[02:49:21] <toastydeath> okuma, good brand
[02:49:53] <dareposte> that is a big big machine
[02:49:53] <cradek> There will be a loading fee of $750 to load onto buyers furnished truck.
[02:50:03] <dareposte> yeah, so that brings the total up to .. um... $1000
[02:50:04] <dareposte> haha
[02:50:17] <dareposte> no seriously i'll throw $1000 at it see if i win
[02:50:34] <cradek> I hate fresh paint
[02:50:35] <dareposte> i might crap my pants if i did though
[02:51:07] <dareposte> This machine powers up sometimes but then shuts itself off after a few seconds. The amount of time the machine stays on varies from time to time. Machine was bought at an auction and painted by previous owner. Machine is sold as is, where is. No exceptions!!
[02:51:43] <dareposte> fresh paint covers up problems
[02:51:49] <toastydeath> hahah you probably don't want to buy a machine with any problems
[02:52:08] <dareposte> why's that?
[02:52:12] <jmkasunich> you want to buy a machine with control problems
[02:52:17] <dareposte> YEAH
[02:52:22] <toastydeath> no, don't
[02:52:23] <dareposte> that's what this one sounds like it has
[02:52:28] <toastydeath> oh wait
[02:52:35] <toastydeath> you're ripping the control out
[02:52:39] <dareposte> well i could
[02:52:43] <dareposte> or fix it
[02:52:44] <jmkasunich> get a lowball price because the control is broken, then replace it with emc
[02:52:45] <toastydeath> does emc support dual turret lathes?
[02:52:52] <dareposte> probably not
[02:52:53] <toastydeath> i.e. all the synch codes
[02:53:03] <dareposte> but it would run at least one
[02:53:04] <toastydeath> mirror turning, synch codes
[02:53:16] <toastydeath> you could run both, you'd just be missing some stuff
[02:53:42] <dareposte> would it actually run both?
[02:53:57] <toastydeath> i'm pretty sure - doesn't emc have 9 axes controllable
[02:54:01] <dareposte> that machine looks like it's a bit shorter than the other one i was looking at
[02:54:03] <toastydeath> that's only a four axis machine
[02:54:13] <dareposte> true
[02:54:21] <cradek> you could make one xz and one uw, but you'd get coordinated motion which isn't really what you want
[02:54:22] <dareposte> so i could be drilling and turning at the same time
[02:54:31] <toastydeath> dareposte: no
[02:54:38] <toastydeath> you need synch codes to have both turrets running at the same time
[02:54:38] <dareposte> yeah speed would be off i guess
[02:55:00] <cradek> you could 'simply' run two emcs on two computers
[02:55:00] <toastydeath> you'd be able to run one, then the other
[02:55:13] <toastydeath> cradek: that still requires synch codes
[02:55:16] <cradek> you could hook some IO between them to coordinate
[02:55:33] <toastydeath> which may be something simple to implement
[02:55:39] <dareposte> ladder would do it
[02:55:41] <cradek> a suitably creative person could make it work - but I can't imagine programming it
[02:55:45] <dareposte> interlocks are no big deal
[02:56:04] <toastydeath> programming dual turret lathes works just like cradek said, actually
[02:56:12] <dareposte> maybe in emc they are, but if you can get joint data and tool offsets into classic ladder it should be easy enough
[02:56:21] <toastydeath> there are two motion controllers accessable from the same console
[02:56:55] <toastydeath> and there's a series of M codes (m300, 301, 302, etc) that work as stops
[02:56:56] <cradek> it would be neat if you could run both emcs on the same computer (like to different mesa cards)
[02:57:03] <cradek> but I don't think that's currently possible
[02:57:07] <toastydeath> so whenever one control hits the m300, it waits for the other one to also hit the m300
[02:57:10] <toastydeath> then they both take off again
[02:57:23] <toastydeath> like m00, except the controls are the ones triggering the move again
[02:57:54] <dareposte> wild
[02:57:56] <toastydeath> also one control runs a G code that reverses the coordinate system, like mirroring on the mill, to make programming easier
[02:58:01] <cradek> I have several 'wait for hal pin to go true and then continue' interfaces from ladder on my lathe - it's not hard
[02:58:05] <dareposte> i'm more worried about actually winning it at this point
[02:58:12] <toastydeath> otherwise, to turn a 2" diameter, one has to turn at 2" and the other at -2"
[02:58:24] <dareposte> why would you need to do mirror turning anyway
[02:58:33] <toastydeath> so you can command both to turn 2"
[02:58:35] <dareposte> seems like twice as much chance for error
[02:58:45] <toastydeath> no, it means half the chance
[02:58:46] <dareposte> i could see having one rough and one finish
[02:58:52] <toastydeath> since both turrets run the same bit of code.
[02:58:56] <dareposte> like right behind each other
[02:59:10] <toastydeath> it's also more accurate, because the forces are balanced and the part doesn't deflect
[02:59:17] <toastydeath> helpful on skinny parts or for very accurate diameters
[02:59:30] <toastydeath> the feed rate can be twice as high
[02:59:31] <dareposte> at 9500 lbs, with a 3000 lbs trailer, i would for sure need a big truck to tow it home
[02:59:39] <dareposte> ahh that does make sense then
[02:59:49] <dareposte> for thin parts
[03:00:06] <dareposte> a dodge ram 2500 could tow it home I think
[03:00:12] <dareposte> barely
[03:00:41] <cradek> does your trailer have brakes?
[03:00:47] <dareposte> yeah
[03:00:51] <dareposte> but my truck doesn't have a hookup for it
[03:00:56] <dareposte> i'm borrowing a trailer from a machinery mover
[03:01:02] <dareposte> its a welded machinery trailer
[03:01:12] <dareposte> so i need to find a truck to tow the trailer now
[03:01:12] <cradek> you're borrowing a truck with brake hookups too I hope :-)
[03:01:33] <dareposte> my vehicle weighs only 4000 lbs fully loaded :) yeah i'm borrowing a truck
[03:01:39] <dareposte> just havent' figured out whose yet
[03:02:07] <dareposte> this one is in missouri
[03:02:21] <dareposte> i bid $1k on it
[03:02:57] <dareposte> at that price i could take it and sell it to the steel scrap yard and just about break even :)
[03:03:55] <dareposte> looks like a fanuc controller on it
[03:04:45] <dareposte> gotta run
[03:04:59] <dareposte> we'll see in about 18 hours I guess if I need to start hunting a bigger truck
[03:08:12] <jmkasunich> dareposte: do you own a shop (a business), or are you a hobbyist with a very large garage? ;-)
[03:18:37] <fenn> hobbyist with not large enough garage
[03:19:06] <fenn> we'll get some entertainment from the photos of him disassembling the garage door
[03:20:29] <toastydeath> and cutting some of the garage wall face away
[04:16:21] <dareposte> you know what works really really well for polishing stainless steel parts?
[04:16:43] <eric_unterhausen> garage wall fragments?
[04:16:43] <dareposte> a vibratory polisher, 5lb of rice, and some turtlewax chrome polish
[04:17:04] <dareposte> garage wall is a close second
[04:17:16] <jmkasunich> dareposte: do you own a shop (a business), or are you a hobbyist with a very large garage? ;-)
[04:17:34] <dareposte> um
[04:17:45] <Optic> we got the x/y on our laser engraver moving under control of emc :)
[04:17:46] <dareposte> i actually live in an apartment
[04:17:52] <dareposte> 2nd floor
[04:18:03] <jmkasunich> but you are looking at multi-thousand pound lathes?
[04:18:04] <dareposte> i own a house in lexington, but its rented out until april
[04:18:18] <dareposte> i worked in japan for a few months and rented it out on a year lease
[04:18:34] <dareposte> so the plan is to get the multi thousand pound machine, boot the tenant, and move back in there
[04:18:39] <dareposte> my 9x20 is up here with me
[04:18:41] <dareposte> i run jobs on it
[04:18:58] <dareposte> small lots, usually no more than 50 or so
[04:19:21] <jmkasunich> "hobbyist for money" sort of
[04:19:25] <dareposte> eh
[04:19:30] <dareposte> maybe aspiring business owner
[04:19:43] <jmkasunich> I sometimes do the same (not aspiring owner tho, want to keep the day job)
[04:19:46] <dareposte> bigger stuff i have contracted out to some of my acquaintences with real machines
[04:19:51] <dareposte> if i get it
[04:19:54] <jmkasunich> my lathe is working on a paying job right now
[04:19:58] <dareposte> way to go
[04:20:06] <dareposte> anything exciting?
[04:20:21] <dareposte> were you the one working on the test jig?
[04:20:27] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/pics/cim-boring-guide-rod-holes-2793.jpg
[04:20:27] <jmkasunich> yes
[04:21:01] <dareposte> yeah that is impressive
[04:21:05] <dareposte> i am seriously envious
[04:21:13] <jmkasunich> its doing the last hole now
[04:21:16] <dareposte> i only make fittings, fasteners, adapters, etc
[04:21:21] <jmkasunich> envoius of a shoptask?
[04:21:40] <dareposte> of your ability to turn that piece
[04:21:45] <dareposte> no matter what machine
[04:21:59] <dareposte> i think i actually have some model of that machine
[04:22:06] <dareposte> in storage now
[04:22:17] <dareposte> did it come with a big weird milling head too?
[04:22:23] <dareposte> maybe like a 9x36" lathe with a milling head
[04:22:31] <jmkasunich> another part of the jig: http://jmkasunich.com/pics/worm02.jpg
[04:22:32] <dareposte> pretty lightweight, maybe 1000 lbs
[04:22:46] <dareposte> wow nice gears
[04:23:14] <dareposte> nice jig
[04:23:17] <dareposte> nicea ll around
[04:23:20] <jmkasunich> http://www.shoptask.com/17%2020%20GOLD%20ON%20BENCH.jpg
[04:23:22] <dareposte> did you make that whole thing on the lathe?
[04:23:50] <dareposte> yeah mine was very very similar to that, but bed is a lot longer
[04:23:52] <jmkasunich> cut the gear teeth on my van norman mill
[04:24:09] <dareposte> the milling head was so bad i took it off and scrapped it out
[04:24:21] <jmkasunich> milling is very mediocre
[04:24:25] <dareposte> yours looks much sturdier than mine
[04:24:34] <dareposte> but overall the design is almost carbon copy
[04:24:38] <jmkasunich> although now that its CNC'ed I'm getting a bit more respect for it
[04:25:00] <jmkasunich> the key is high speed - it can't take heavy cuts, but it can do nice feeds if you spin a carbide cutter pretty quick
[04:25:15] <dareposte> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44142
[04:25:20] <jmkasunich> worm gear gashing: http://jmkasunich.com/pics/worm07.jpg
[04:25:28] <jmkasunich> and hobbing: http://jmkasunich.com/pics/worm09.jpg
[04:26:06] <dareposte> thats a nice setup
[04:26:20] <dareposte> i like it
[04:26:25] <dareposte> i only have a spin indexer
[04:26:29] <jmkasunich> I really like the van norman
[04:26:38] <jmkasunich> I just wish it didn't have to live in the garage
[04:26:45] <jmkasunich> no heat, rust problems in the spring
[04:26:49] <dareposte> yeah
[04:26:56] <dareposte> i found that CLP is good for that
[04:27:08] <dareposte> used to use it on my guns, but it works great for chucks and tooling too
[04:27:14] <jmkasunich> another job I did for a friend: http://jmkasunich.com/cgi-bin/blosxom/shoptask/manifolds-2008-04-15.html
[04:28:47] <dareposte> was that from a forging or something?
[04:28:51] <jmkasunich> castings
[04:29:46] <dareposte> very cool
[04:30:03] <jmkasunich> rumor has it he is doing another 48 pieces
[04:30:05] <dareposte> i've done a bit of aluminum and zinc casting on my porch, but it was a bit dangerous for a wood deck
[04:30:20] <jmkasunich> he had the castings done at a foundry
[04:30:31] <dareposte> that's convenient
[04:31:05] <jmkasunich> it was also very expensive - I was shocked at what he paid for tooling
[04:31:14] <dareposte> i bet
[04:31:30] <dareposte> the nice thing about learning to cast is... if you screw it up just remelt it
[04:31:33] <dareposte> not at all like machining is
[04:32:01] <dareposte> i built a little furnace for aluminum, fitted it with a PID controller, and melted down a bunch of scrap alloy wheels
[04:32:42] <dareposte> cast both the mounts for my x-axis screws using it
[04:32:46] <dareposte> turned out medium okay
[04:32:54] <jmkasunich> sand castings?
[04:32:58] <dareposte> yeah
[04:33:14] <dareposte> i found a good place to get the right stuff to make foundry sand right here in town
[04:33:26] <dareposte> turns out they are the major dealer for the region, go figure
[04:35:34] <jmkasunich> you're gonna be making a huge jump from 3-in-1 and 9x20 lathe to a 2 ton machine
[04:35:41] <dareposte> yeah i know
[04:35:48] <dareposte> actually 5 ton
[04:35:49] <jmkasunich> I think I'd be scared
[04:36:00] <dareposte> not scared, slightly aroused maybe
[04:36:05] <jmkasunich> TMI
[04:36:40] <jmkasunich> where are you going to put it? garage?
[04:36:42] <dareposte> yeah
[04:36:49] <jmkasunich> do you have heat?
[04:36:53] <dareposte> if i get one before april it will go in a friends barn
[04:37:13] <jmkasunich> and then move it later?
[04:37:17] <dareposte> yeah in april
[04:37:27] <dareposte> i don't have a heated garage
[04:37:30] <jmkasunich> do you realize how much of a "project" it is to move a machine that size?
[04:37:41] <dareposte> i know enough to get people who know
[04:37:54] <dareposte> i am pretty good friends with some machinery riggers
[04:37:56] <jmkasunich> with a big-ass forklift
[04:38:02] <jmkasunich> ah, that makes a world of difference
[04:38:02] <dareposte> yeah
[04:38:39] <jmkasunich> how much power do you have in your garage? do you have three-phase?
[04:38:45] <dareposte> no three phase
[04:38:56] <dareposte> i have a standard house feed
[04:39:00] <dareposte> what, 200 amp i think
[04:39:19] <jmkasunich> some of the machines you are looking at have 7.5HP spindle motors
[04:39:51] <jmkasunich> that is about 30A at 240V just for the spindle
[04:39:59] <dareposte> yep
[04:40:04] <jmkasunich> and the machine will certainly be wired for three phase
[04:40:07] <dareposte> through a phase converter
[04:40:11] <dareposte> maybe 80% efficient
[04:40:41] <dareposte> i figured a 50A breaker would be able to run it
[04:40:43] <jmkasunich> you certainly think big
[04:41:08] <dareposte> its not beyond the realm of residential power... maybe pushes the limits a bit
[04:41:22] <jmkasunich> yeah
[04:41:31] <jmkasunich> power, weight, the whole thing
[04:41:38] <jmkasunich> how cold does it get down there?
[04:41:46] <dareposte> subzero occasionally
[04:41:49] <jmkasunich> unheated garage will be a problem in winter
[04:41:55] <dareposte> yeah it will have to be heated
[04:42:04] <dareposte> and insulated
[04:42:06] <dareposte> no biggie though
[04:42:21] <jmkasunich> all it takes is money and time, right?
[04:42:31] <dareposte> i guess
[04:42:41] <dareposte> the goal is to not have it at the house for too long though
[04:43:01] <dareposte> in 1-2 years the plan is to have product development done, and move to a real facility for production
[04:43:30] <jmkasunich> oh, you have a specific product you want to make? I thought you were just gonna be a job-shop
[04:43:39] <dareposte> i have a specific product i want to make
[04:43:58] <dareposte> maybe do some contract work to fund product development and testing
[04:44:02] <jmkasunich> so that determines the size of the machine, etc
[04:44:15] <dareposte> the end goal is definitely not going to be as a job shop, there are tons of people better at that than I am
[04:44:30] <jmkasunich> I guess it also explains why lathe and not mill (most shops start with a mill) but if your product is round....
[04:45:05] <dareposte> my degree is in mechanical engineering, so i know very little about machining
[04:45:10] <dareposte> its a big giant learning experience
[04:45:17] <dareposte> but i think in polar coordinates, which is nice sometimes
[04:45:18] <jmkasunich> fun isn't it
[04:45:23] <dareposte> yeah it's a blast
[04:45:31] <dareposte> learning what can be done, and how to do it
[04:45:41] <jmkasunich> I'm an electrical engineer, but my dad was a machinist for 40+ years so I was exposed at a young age
[04:46:12] <dareposte> that's nice
[04:46:35] <dareposte> my dad was a doctor, so he had nothing to do with metalworking
[04:47:01] <dareposte> although i did get free stitches all the time, so it was nice
[04:47:45] <jmkasunich> nice would be not needing stitches all the time
[04:48:09] <dareposte> good point
[04:48:55] <dareposte> i never thought of it that way
[04:49:27] <jmkasunich> hmm, this is discomforting - hole is roughed out, ready for final pass to bring it to size - but it is 0.0025 bigger than the last one was at this point
[04:49:54] <toastydeath> tool wear?
[04:49:59] <dareposte> have you been measuring tool deflection to this point?
[04:49:59] <jmkasunich> tool wear would make it smaller
[04:50:04] <toastydeath> oh, whoops
[04:50:29] <jmkasunich> the last one and this one were cut using exactly the same path, so deflection should be constant
[04:50:48] <jmkasunich> also, the last few cuts are fairly light (0.010 on the diameter, 0.005 radius)
[04:50:57] <dareposte> built up edge?
[04:51:02] <dareposte> what are you turning?
[04:51:05] <jmkasunich> didn't see one, but that is a possibility
[04:51:08] <jmkasunich> aluminum, 6061
[04:51:12] <jmkasunich> HSS tool
[04:51:14] <dareposte> yeah maybe a possibility
[04:51:23] <dareposte> touch it with a stone maybe?
[04:51:48] <dareposte> i get built-up edge really bad on my tools turning 6061
[04:52:08] <jmkasunich> no BUE under a 10x loupe
[04:52:19] <dareposte> hm
[04:52:20] <toastydeath> is the machine warm
[04:52:34] <jmkasunich> I've been using a squirt of WD-40 between passes to keep the chips from sticking and avoid BUE
[04:52:36] <toastydeath> we have one machine that grows .005
[04:52:41] <jmkasunich> toastydeath: not really
[04:52:43] <toastydeath> as it warms up
[04:53:01] <toastydeath> o well
[04:53:37] <jmkasunich> I think I'll adjust the final pass based on what I measured
[04:53:42] <jmkasunich> rather be under than over
[04:54:18] <jmkasunich> I could do the last pass in two steps, and measure again between, but that doesn't thrill me either
[04:54:31] <jmkasunich> target is 1.0015 +/- 0.0005 ish
[04:54:42] <dareposte> whats the ID
[04:55:17] <jmkasunich> program roughs to 0.960, then I do one pass at 0.980, one at 0.990, then stop and measure, then the final pass
[04:55:34] <jmkasunich> my 0.990 is 0.9925
[04:56:36] <toastydeath> BREAK OUT THE DIAMOND TOOLING
[04:56:50] <dareposte> i'd say go for it
[04:57:02] <dareposte> if your next pass is the same size
[04:57:06] <dareposte> i mean same depth of cut
[04:58:00] <jmkasunich> last two passes were 0.020 and 0.010 (on the diameter)
[04:58:14] <jmkasunich> next one is 0.0115 (close enough to 0.010 IMO)
[04:58:31] <dareposte> yeah
[04:58:34] <jmkasunich> if I correct for the oversize I have right now, next pass will be 0.01025
[04:58:42] <dareposte> that's what i'd do
[04:58:57] <dareposte> same feed and everything?
[04:59:02] <jmkasunich> yep
[05:00:25] <jmkasunich> well, we'll know in a few minutes
[05:00:49] <dareposte> jmkasunich: your website is nice
[05:00:52] <jmkasunich> thanks
[05:01:24] <dareposte> pretty informative
[05:01:40] <dareposte> those castings look like crap though for coming from a foundry
[05:01:49] <dareposte> the parting line is like a parting ridge
[05:02:04] <jmkasunich> yeah, they aren't pretty
[05:02:41] <dareposte> if you put those in a vibratory tumbler with ceramic chips, it would take all that flash off
[05:02:59] <jmkasunich> before machining, right?
[05:03:02] <dareposte> yeah
[05:03:05] <dareposte> or after
[05:03:13] <dareposte> aluminum maybe not so good after
[05:03:19] <dareposte> i don't debur any of my parts
[05:03:24] <dareposte> just throw them in my tumbler with ceramics
[05:03:26] <jmkasunich> I don't have such a thing, nor does my buddy, but I'll mention it to him, maybe he knows someone
[05:03:29] <dareposte> little triangle things
[05:03:44] <dareposte> the find and eat sharp edges
[05:03:51] <dareposte> *they
[05:04:12] <dareposte> vibratory tumblers are very nice to have
[05:04:37] <dareposte> i just have a little 5 lb one i got for polishing my rifle brass, but soon learned that by filling it with other media it could do lots of fun things
[05:04:40] <dareposte> paid $80 for it or so
[05:04:55] <dareposte> corn cobs are good for cleaning brass or oil off parts
[05:05:08] <dareposte> ceramic triangles will deburr steel or aluminum parts
[05:05:23] <jmkasunich> thats a tabletop size thing isn't it?
[05:05:27] <dareposte> yeah
[05:05:30] <dareposte> 5 lb hoper
[05:05:33] <dareposte> hopper
[05:05:33] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich is very limited for space
[05:05:51] <dareposte> those castings are probably too big to fit in mine
[05:06:10] <dareposte> but the parts i make are usually small
[05:06:15] <dareposte> and they fit
[05:06:23] <jmkasunich> is that why you are getting a huge lathe ;-)
[05:07:12] <dareposte> the huge lathe is for huge parts
[05:07:15] <jmkasunich> ah
[05:07:21] <dareposte> small lathe for small parts
[05:07:26] <jmkasunich> hmm, the Van Norman 16S at HGR is sold
[05:07:43] <jmkasunich> thats probably a good thing - if it stayed there much longer it might have wound up in my garage
[05:08:36] <dareposte> yah good thing
[05:08:49] <dareposte> i have some rong-fu knockoff mill
[05:08:52] <dareposte> its adequate
[05:09:21] <dareposte> nothing like one of those, but it will make brackets and mounting plates
[05:09:45] <jmkasunich> heh, hit my 1.0015 right on the nose
[05:10:12] <dareposte> good work
[05:10:41] <dareposte> back it off a half thou and run it again, i bet it comes out right on
[05:10:55] <dareposte> maybe a full thou if your boring bar is smallish
[05:11:39] <dareposte> oh yeah you were shooting for 1.0015
[05:11:41] <dareposte> not 1.0
[05:11:45] <dareposte> good work
[05:11:48] <dareposte> i love that feeling
[05:12:03] <dareposte> http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIREARMS/frankford_casetumbler.pdf
[05:12:08] <dareposte> there's my case tumbler I use
[05:12:44] <dareposte> in case you ever feel the need to clean, polish, or deburr small parts in it
[05:13:08] <dareposte> i'll post a pic of the parts once they come out, before and after
[05:13:28] <jmkasunich> neat
[05:13:45] <jmkasunich> gotta run out to the garage to press bushings into these parts - then time to walk dog and get some sleep
[05:19:56] <dareposte> night
[05:44:20] <sys2> sys2 is now known as MrSunshine
[06:33:32] <MrSunshine> can i find a list of the default pins for emc somewhere?
[06:33:46] <MrSunshine> parport pins
[07:03:29] <JymmmEMC> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/config_emc2hal.html
[07:34:25] <dareposte> anybody know what a 5020L control is? who makes it?
[07:43:49] <JymmmEMC> mes 5i20
[07:43:53] <JymmmEMC> mesa
[07:44:09] <JymmmEMC> http://mesanet.com
[07:45:29] <JymmmEMC> http://mesanet.com/parallelcardinfo.html
[07:46:23] <dareposte> me?
[07:46:46] <dareposte> those mesa cards are cool but i dont' think that's what i'm looking at here
[07:46:49] <dareposte> its on an okuma
[07:47:04] <dareposte> i assume some commercial controller
[07:47:11] <JymmmEMC> no clue
[07:51:25] <dareposte> OSP ring any bells?
[07:51:59] <dareposte> maybe okuma's own control
[07:52:09] <toastydeath> okuma does produce their own controls
[07:52:11] <toastydeath> with their own gcode
[07:52:21] <toastydeath> that isn't gcode
[07:54:02] <dareposte> i see
[07:54:13] <dareposte> post processor?
[07:54:32] <toastydeath> wat
[07:54:39] <toastydeath> the control doesn't use gcode.
[07:54:43] <toastydeath> is what i'm saying, if it's an okuma.
[07:55:03] <toastydeath> just like mazatrol doesn't use gcode, but some mazatrol specific shenanigan
[07:55:19] <toastydeath> it looks like gcode with letters and numbers, but if you walk up to it and try to program it, you'll drive the stupid thing into the chuck
[07:57:19] <dareposte> so if i win it, then i should make it run on emc
[07:57:30] <toastydeath> that depends on if the control is functional or not
[07:57:36] <toastydeath> if the control is running, i'd use the okuma control
[07:57:43] <dareposte> the control's not running
[07:57:45] <toastydeath> they're supposed to be really trick dealies, i've always wanted to use one
[07:57:48] <toastydeath> oh, then yeah, emc.
[07:57:57] <dareposte> it powers on then shuts down
[07:58:03] <dareposte> so i'd have to fix it or fit a new one
[07:58:16] <dareposte> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&item=370167397899
[07:58:23] <toastydeath> i'd call okuma and see if they'd help me, and i'd spend a few bucks fixing it
[07:58:30] <toastydeath> if it was expensive to fix, i'd go with emc.
[07:58:52] <dareposte> that's sort of the plan
[07:59:00] <dareposte> first win it, then strip that nasty paint off and make it right
[07:59:09] <dareposte> while i am fixing the controller
[07:59:24] <dareposte> see what's hidden under the fresh paint, and fix it too
[07:59:30] <toastydeath> but yeah, esp. since it's a dual turret machine, do your best to fix the control (within reason)
[07:59:41] <dareposte> i would be fine just parking a turret
[07:59:43] <dareposte> or taking it off
[07:59:50] <toastydeath> * toastydeath shrug
[07:59:56] <dareposte> but yeah it would be nice to have them both work
[08:00:03] <dareposte> i'm not sure i understand all the benefit of it yet
[08:00:11] <dareposte> but it would be nice if the parts were interchangeable for spares
[08:00:24] <toastydeath> the benifits of a second turret?
[08:00:28] <dareposte> yeah
[08:00:37] <dareposte> i mean besides the obvious extra 8 tools
[08:00:44] <toastydeath> 2x the tool capacity and reduced cycle time
[08:00:52] <toastydeath> and higher accuracy on longer parts
[08:00:57] <toastydeath> (using balanced turning
[08:01:18] <dareposte> yeah that all makes sense
[08:01:37] <dareposte> apparently they can't operate on separate parts of the piece
[08:01:44] <dareposte> like one turning a taper, the other making a shoulder
[08:01:49] <toastydeath> oh, they're not a true dual turret machine
[08:02:01] <toastydeath> that's a bummer
[08:02:10] <toastydeath> then really what you're looking at is just 2x tool capacity.
[08:02:49] <dareposte> yeah
[08:03:03] <dareposte> i'm not sure about that though, are you
[08:03:05] <dareposte> ?
[08:03:07] <toastydeath> ?
[08:03:22] <dareposte> about the mirror vs. separate ops
[08:03:57] <dareposte> i haven't found a manual for it yet
[08:04:16] <toastydeath> i dunno, you're the one who told me they can't do seperate ops
[08:04:27] <toastydeath> i was going off that
[08:04:27] <dareposte> that's the way I understand it
[08:04:34] <dareposte> this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8fcGJ9tpuE shows both turrets moving individually
[08:04:57] <toastydeath> that's what i would expect in a more modern cnc
[08:05:13] <dareposte> 1993
[08:05:17] <toastydeath> that's recent.
[08:05:20] <dareposte> yeah
[08:05:21] <toastydeath> compared to say, a 1960's machine.
[08:05:25] <dareposte> oh yeah
[08:05:42] <dareposte> for sure
[08:05:50] <toastydeath> since the ebay thing lists two different X axis and Z axis travels
[08:06:07] <toastydeath> that would lead me to believe the turrets are independant, and can do independant ops
[08:06:08] <dareposte> yeah I saw that too, not sure they have a clue though
[08:06:19] <toastydeath> what leads you to say that
[08:06:35] <dareposte> just get that feeling talking to the guy
[08:06:47] <dareposte> e-mailed him about a couple of things
[08:06:51] <toastydeath> well you'd have to look at it
[08:07:03] <toastydeath> what makes you think they're joined
[08:07:04] <dareposte> i'll look at it when they load it on the truck
[08:07:13] <dareposte> someone else said that they would do mirror ops
[08:07:36] <dareposte> who was it, i lost my chat transcripts
[08:07:37] <toastydeath> would?
[08:07:45] <dareposte> yeah i'm not sure
[08:08:01] <dareposte> if i win it then i guess i'll figure it out
[08:08:22] <dareposte> also it was said that emc could control it, just as another axis
[08:08:37] <dareposte> so if the controller is crapped out beyond reasonable repair, then that would be the next strategy
[08:08:47] <toastydeath> the issue is not that emc can't control it
[08:08:48] <dareposte> or pick the one that seems to be in best shape and turn the other off
[08:08:50] <toastydeath> it's how it controls it
[08:09:19] <toastydeath> but yeah, you'll be fine either way i suppose
[08:09:31] <toastydeath> it's a lathe, and the hardware works, so worst case you just wind up with one turret.
[08:09:35] <dareposte> yeah
[08:09:42] <dareposte> not so sure all the hardware works though
[08:09:57] <dareposte> not even sure that all the hardware is *there*
[08:10:01] <toastydeath> lol
[08:10:14] <dareposte> thats what i mean when i say these guys don't really have a clue
[08:10:27] <dareposte> i wanted to know what servo controllers it had in it, or if it still had them in it
[08:11:07] <dareposte> oh well
[08:11:16] <dareposte> depending how it runs up in the last few hours it might wind up being a steal
[08:11:42] <toastydeath> it would strike me as odd for that machine to be missing any parts.
[08:11:47] <dareposte> yeah
[08:11:58] <dareposte> it came from auction, someone got it, painted it, and re-sold it
[08:12:03] <toastydeath> yeah.
[08:12:11] <dareposte> and now this guy has it on ebay for a few ben's
[08:12:34] <dareposte> it wouldn't strike me as too odd for much of anything with it
[08:12:50] <dareposte> but it looks like the ways, the screws, the spindle, and the castings are all there, so that's what I bid on
[08:13:12] <dareposte> with a 7.5kw spindle motor for sure
[08:13:30] <dareposte> what's that about 10 hp
[08:13:44] <toastydeath> ~5?
[08:13:52] <toastydeath> no, you're right
[08:13:57] <toastydeath> i went the wrong direction
[08:14:37] <dareposte> hope its an ac servo on the spindle
[08:14:45] <dareposte> i'd imagine it probably is
[08:15:19] <toastydeath> no idea
[08:15:48] <dareposte> i'm trying to figure out what size breaker it would need
[08:16:53] <toastydeath> you probably have another 5 hp in servos
[08:17:19] <toastydeath> i'd guess 12 kw or so
[08:17:22] <dareposte> yeah
[08:17:43] <toastydeath> oh uh, just so you know, you are going to have trouble running this on anything but a vfd
[08:17:55] <dareposte> why's that
[08:18:22] <toastydeath> the waveform from an RPC is too dirty and causes problems with the servo and spindle drivers
[08:18:50] <dareposte> well that's a big honkin' vfd
[08:18:55] <toastydeath> yep
[08:19:09] <dareposte> a 15hp rotary isn't so bad
[08:19:18] <dareposte> how do you know about this problem?
[08:19:31] <toastydeath> it's well documented by people who have tried to run CNCs at home
[08:19:39] <dareposte> i see
[08:19:43] <toastydeath> practicalmachinist occasionaly has a thread about the subject
[08:20:16] <dareposte> i may wind up putting it out in a shop somewhere then, where they have 3 phase
[08:20:24] <toastydeath> they want the voltages and phase seperation to all be very close in tolerance to one another
[08:20:46] <toastydeath> otherwise the machine alarms out all the time
[08:21:13] <dareposte> http://cgi.ebay.com/20-HP,-VFD,-VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-AC-MOTOR-SPEED-DRIVE_W0QQitemZ140305672503QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090307?IMSfp=TL090307185017r4663
[08:21:15] <toastydeath> http://cgi.ebay.com/YASKAWA-15-HP-VFD-AC-DRIVE-CIMR-E7U47P5-480-VOLT-13-KVA_W0QQitemZ200276999626QQcmdZViewItem
[08:21:51] <dareposte> does that mean it puts out 480, or it takes in 480
[08:22:11] <dareposte> both it says
[08:22:18] <toastydeath> yeah
[08:22:29] <toastydeath> you'll want to run a RPC to one of those boxes
[08:22:53] <dareposte> damn that sucks
[08:23:04] <dareposte> all the inefficiencies of an rpc, plus the cost of a vfd
[08:23:18] <toastydeath> well, you can use a cheap RPC
[08:23:19] <toastydeath> er
[08:23:21] <toastydeath> cheaper VFD
[08:23:25] <toastydeath> if you give it three phase input
[08:23:36] <toastydeath> otherwise you need a vfd that can take one phase and make it three, and that is more money.
[08:23:56] <dareposte> i'd rather do that to keep the power draw more reasonable
[08:24:01] <dareposte> if i could
[08:24:05] <dareposte> http://www.driveswarehouse.com/Drives/AC+Drives/Variable+Torque+VFD/L300P-150LFU2.html
[08:24:33] <dareposte> you think all the servos need 480?
[08:24:39] <dareposte> 480vac
[08:24:46] <toastydeath> depends on what the machine is wired for.
[08:24:58] <toastydeath> probably not 480.
[08:25:24] <toastydeath> but make sure you verify that the vfd you buy can take single phase, because all the ones you've sent me want 3 phase input
[08:25:35] <dareposte> this one takes 240 single in, puts 240 three phase out
[08:25:35] <dareposte> http://www.driveswarehouse.com/Drives/AC+Drives/Phase+Converter+VFD/PC1-150.html?osCsid=b34b68a15841541f918a77c57e833501
[08:26:35] <toastydeath> yeah that's the one.
[08:26:40] <dareposte> not too bad on the price
[08:27:06] <dareposte> squeeze it in on a 50A breaker too
[08:27:14] <dareposte> assuming it would power the beast
[08:28:08] <dareposte> might shut down all the digital tv reception in the neighborhood :D
[08:28:17] <toastydeath> lol
[08:28:28] <toastydeath> it would certainly dim the lights a bit
[08:28:49] <dareposte> i would guess it's probably fairly rare to have all the motors pulling full load at the same time
[08:29:01] <toastydeath> it's rare to even have one motor pulling full load
[08:29:05] <dareposte> yeah
[08:29:14] <dareposte> spindle is the big one i guess
[08:29:24] <dareposte> i'm making medium sized parts, nothing that big
[08:29:27] <toastydeath> especially in that size machine, i'd be shocked if you had any sustained draw above 25%
[08:30:03] <toastydeath> unless you specifically look to really hammer material off
[08:30:24] <dareposte> it would be nice to take more than a 0.3mm pass for a change :)
[08:30:41] <toastydeath> yeah, that's not a problem
[08:31:12] <dareposte> hey it draws the same power as a hot-tub does!
[08:31:23] <dareposte> my neighbors have a hot tub, so i should be able to have one of these things
[08:31:41] <toastydeath> hahah
[08:32:02] <dareposte> probably weighs about the same as a loaded hot tub too
[08:32:29] <dareposte> yep it does, a hot tub weighs 10000 lbs
[08:32:32] <dareposte> full of water
[08:32:36] <dareposte> perfect
[08:32:44] <dareposte> so when the neighborhood association complains i have my defense
[08:32:45] <dareposte> i
[08:32:53] <dareposte> i'll have my attorney put it in writing and formalize the argument
[08:33:14] <dareposte> its probably quieter than that hot tub full of screaming kids too
[08:33:38] <toastydeath> haha
[08:33:48] <toastydeath> sometimes it'll get loud.
[08:33:52] <toastydeath> SKREEEEE
[08:33:56] <dareposte> haha
[08:34:06] <dareposte> hope not too often
[08:34:15] <dareposte> speed down, feed up
[08:35:04] <toastydeath> how fast is that spindle?
[08:35:09] <dareposte> over 5000
[08:35:10] <toastydeath> i don't have the ebay open anymore
[08:35:15] <dareposte> me neither
[08:35:18] <toastydeath> then you need to start getting used to going the other direction
[08:35:19] <dareposte> i think it was 5500 or 6000
[08:35:58] <toastydeath> if you have headroom, like a 6k rpm lathe spindle turning at 2k, you can usually eliminate chatter by going the other direction just as quickly
[08:36:01] <dareposte> don't think the sheet metal would contain it?
[08:36:07] <toastydeath> ..?
[08:36:09] <dareposte> oh
[08:36:15] <dareposte> i thought you meant running away when i heard that sound
[08:36:18] <toastydeath> no
[08:36:19] <toastydeath> hahah
[08:36:20] <dareposte> before it threw the part at me
[08:36:37] <toastydeath> standing to one side usually works just as well
[08:36:46] <toastydeath> plus the doors, in my experience, are really good at stopping parts
[08:37:01] <dareposte> that's reassuring
[08:37:08] <dareposte> comforting almost
[08:37:27] <dareposte> so you're saying speed up, and slow the feed down?
[08:37:38] <dareposte> never heard that before
[08:37:59] <toastydeath> because it doesn't make sense on manual lathes.
[08:38:43] <toastydeath> chatter is a self-excited vibration, with the cut depth acting as the gain, and the feed rate acting as a damper
[08:38:59] <toastydeath> the spindle rpm and flute configuration obviously varies the frequency
[08:39:45] <toastydeath> in many instances of chatter, by going faster, you get over a hump of frequencies where the gain (cut depth) must be very shallow because of a lack of dynamic rigidity at that frequency
[08:40:32] <toastydeath> those spikes of resonance in the frame occur in harmonics
[08:40:40] <dareposte> makes sense
[08:40:53] <toastydeath> yep
[08:40:54] <dareposte> so just get out of the harmonic resonance and it shoudl stop
[08:41:01] <dareposte> speed up, slow down, damp more
[08:41:04] <toastydeath> yeah, unless the whole thing is just too flimsy
[08:41:19] <toastydeath> which does happen with long workpieces - then you just have to go slow.
[08:41:37] <toastydeath> but if you're turning and it looks pretty rigid, and it's just chattering, then you should go faster.
[08:41:40] <dareposte> how much do you think that okuma would take off the radius on a pass
[08:41:49] <toastydeath> depends on the starting radius
[08:41:55] <dareposte> maybe a 2" 1018
[08:42:03] <toastydeath> lemme look
[08:42:12] <dareposte> look?
[08:42:23] <toastydeath> i.e. doing some envelope math?
[08:42:26] <dareposte> oh
[08:42:36] <dareposte> i was wondering where on earth you would look that up
[08:43:57] <dareposte> i do seem to recall something in machinery handbook about spindle hp, speed, feed, and depth of cut
[08:44:19] <dareposte> at the time it was not important but now it might be interesting reading
[08:44:26] <toastydeath> yeah
[08:44:30] <toastydeath> it's a good thing to do
[08:45:26] <toastydeath> it looks like you'd be able to do 8" per minute at .100 DOC
[08:45:30] <toastydeath> (radial depth of cut)
[08:45:46] <toastydeath> at two inches
[08:45:53] <toastydeath> or rather, from two inches starting diameter
[08:46:32] <dareposte> seems a little slow on the feed doesn't it?
[08:46:47] <toastydeath> not for 1018?
[08:46:52] <dareposte> oh
[08:46:56] <dareposte> no i did the math wrong
[08:47:01] <dareposte> that's 200 mm/min
[08:47:10] <dareposte> not 45mm/min
[08:47:30] <dareposte> .1 off the radius isn't too bad
[08:48:10] <dareposte> about 10x more than i get to take right now
[08:48:25] <dareposte> good improvement
[08:48:26] <toastydeath> so at 500 SFM, that comes out to a feed rate of .008"/rev and an RPM of 955
[08:48:36] <toastydeath> and obviously that's for an 8" length of material
[08:48:59] <toastydeath> deeper cut, faster feed rate for shorter parts.
[08:49:27] <dareposte> i'm getting excited already
[08:50:19] <dareposte> ebay even sent me a $2 off coupon
[08:50:20] <dareposte> must be a sign
[08:50:31] <toastydeath> hahaha
[08:51:01] <dareposte> they probably know better than to send me a 10% off one
[08:52:00] <toastydeath> hahah.
[08:52:01] <dareposte> i gotta get a couple hours sleep
[08:52:07] <toastydeath> night dood
[08:52:09] <dareposte> this time change has me all out of wack
[08:52:25] <dareposte> its only supposed to be 3am right now
[08:52:33] <dareposte> not 4
[08:52:44] <dareposte> later
[08:52:45] <toastydeath> hahah
[08:52:46] <toastydeath> vus
[08:52:47] <toastydeath> *cya
[13:45:16] <BJT-Work> anyone have a link for sharpening a hand scraper?
[13:45:49] <DanielFalck> hand scraper for metal?
[13:46:03] <BJT-Work> yes, the kind with a carbide blade
[13:46:49] <BJT-Work> the only thing I can find is on wood scrapers
[13:47:20] <DanielFalck> I've done it on a kool carb lapper before- hold it at about 5 to 7 degrees and make a very large arc on the face
[13:48:02] <BJT-Work> what is a kool carb lapper?
[13:48:12] <DanielFalck> slow moving lapping wheel
[13:48:23] <DanielFalck> that might be the wrong name
[13:48:33] <BJT-Work> hmmm don't have one of those...
[14:02:07] <BJT-Work> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIvxXMDeCIc
[14:04:28] <archivist> the curve radius seems small there
[14:09:50] <BJT-Work> the end radius?
[14:11:00] <archivist> see him rock vertically when grinding
[14:11:06] <BJT-Work> yes
[14:11:51] <archivist> a new scraper from Eclipse is of a much greater radius
[14:12:03] <BJT-Work> ok thanks
[14:12:26] <archivist> near straight but not quite
[14:12:53] <archivist> probably also depends on use
[14:29:16] <Roguish> good morning all. anyone awake out there know about high voltage wire????
[14:30:05] <Roguish> I need to put some load resistors on a drive and the bus is about 95v DC. I'm chicken of regular 600v wire. any suggestions?
[14:30:21] <Roguish> that's 950v DC
[14:30:38] <archivist> 95v is not very high
[14:30:38] <cradek> that's a big difference
[14:30:44] <SWPadnos> 950 is pretty high
[14:31:06] <Roguish> ah, the pros from dover are here!!! hurray!
[14:31:17] <cradek> don't look at me
[14:31:24] <SWPadnos> you're not in DOver ;)
[14:31:29] <SWPadnos> (neither am I)
[14:31:43] <archivist> 950v will need thicker insulation
[14:35:22] <SWPadnos> Roguish, what kind of current are you talking about?
[14:35:24] <Roguish> http://cgi.ebay.com/3m-20KV-white-High-Voltage-Wire-Cable-Stranded-tesla-HV_W0QQitemZ150326785225QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Connectors_Switches_Wire?hash=item150326785225&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50
[14:36:01] <SWPadnos> you probably don't need 20kV wire. something 3k or higher should be fine
[14:36:08] <Roguish> I don't really know the current. It's regen power from a 10HP, 480v drive
[14:36:41] <SWPadnos> so 950V includes the regen voltage bump?
[14:37:00] <Roguish> yeah, i believe so.
[14:37:54] <Dallur> Anything rated 450v should be able to handle spikes up to 750v If I remember correctly, let me try to find some specs
[14:39:02] <SWPadnos> what resistor value will you be using?
[14:39:09] <SWPadnos> (that will tell the current rating)
[14:39:24] <Optic> good morning machinists
[14:39:29] <Roguish> 47 ohm
[14:40:05] <SWPadnos> so 20A peak
[14:40:19] <Dallur> bs6007 has that 450/750 thing
[14:40:29] <Roguish> 18g recommended wire size, I want something like 16 or even14g.
[14:41:46] <Dallur> Roguish: does it need to flex or can it be solid core?
[14:42:03] <Roguish_> flex.
[14:42:45] <Dallur> roguish: try something that conforms to IEC 60502 for insulation
[14:42:59] <Dallur> roguish: IEC 60228 for the copper strands
[14:43:23] <Dallur> Roguish: should be rated to 1kV
[14:43:48] <SWPadnos> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=W2716B-100-ND
[14:43:58] <SWPadnos> unless you want it in a different color :)
[14:44:40] <Roguish_> looks great. thanks.
[14:45:04] <Roguish_> henry ford color too!!
[14:45:06] <SWPadnos> there are many others, but I limited my search to what was in stock only
[14:45:29] <SWPadnos> they have thicker gauges if you want to special-order
[14:45:47] <Roguish_> i'd founc some earlier, but way more expensive.
[14:46:24] <Roguish_> thanks again. off to the day j o b.
[14:46:30] <SWPadnos> see ya
[15:49:20] <Optic> hi
[15:51:30] <skunkworks_> Hello - how is the laser coming?
[15:52:29] <Optic> we got the steppers moving
[15:52:31] <Optic> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H96ZtMXXBAo
[15:52:50] <Optic> it's still far from ideal, but the motor drivers work
[15:52:54] <Optic> and emc can control it
[15:58:44] <skunkworks_> sweet
[15:59:05] <Optic> we're going to have to figure out how to do constant speed
[15:59:09] <Optic> and what the right numbers are
[16:01:19] <Optic> emc did a wonderful amount of Just Working once we got close to the right timing values for stepping
[16:02:47] <JymmmEMC> Optic: I think that's where the PPI might come into play.
[16:03:04] <JymmmEMC> Optic: It's been a while, so I don't remember the details
[16:03:30] <Optic> do you have a link I could read about it?
[16:04:13] <JymmmEMC> Optic: Sorry no, closest thing it that GCC sample page, but you can't dl the Corel file w/o being a member
[16:04:28] <JymmmEMC> which wuldn't help too much either.
[16:05:19] <JymmmEMC> Optic: Most places, including China imported lasers keep that private. I've even seen dongles being used.
[16:05:41] <Optic> wow
[16:05:56] <JymmmEMC> Optic: What I do recall is that constant laser is only used for cutting, not engaving
[16:06:30] <Optic> we'll have to play with it a bit
[16:06:33] <JymmmEMC> and that's not always true, becasue when I inspect the samples I had created, I can see the pulse marks on cuts.
[16:06:44] <Optic> i imagine if the system slows down it will make bigger lines
[16:07:05] <JymmmEMC> Sure, makes sense.
[16:07:29] <Optic> would G64 be the right thing?
[16:07:44] <JymmmEMC> I don't know g-code like the other guys here.
[16:08:30] <Optic> apparently that is constant velocity mode
[16:08:39] <JymmmEMC> Assuming vector here... But when it gets to a segment, it's constant speed during the whole segment isn't it?
[16:08:57] <Optic> i think so
[16:09:12] <Optic> especially once everything is calibrated
[16:09:27] <Optic> but emc does accelleration and decelleration
[16:09:50] <JymmmEMC> based upon settings iirc
[16:09:53] <Optic> yes
[16:10:23] <JymmmEMC> You know PS at all?
[16:10:34] <Optic> i would imagine the original controller could have done things like overshoot the movement on both ends and turn the laser on for only part of the move
[16:10:38] <Optic> PS?
[16:10:43] <JymmmEMC> PostScript
[16:10:56] <Optic> I know of it, i've never done any coding in it
[16:11:16] <JymmmEMC> ah, well you could probably do the same thing in raw g-code too
[16:11:32] <Optic> yeah
[16:11:42] <archivist_emc> gcode is as "easy" as ps
[16:11:45] <Optic> hardware first, software second :)
[16:11:56] <Optic> gcode seems pretty stright ahead
[16:12:52] <JymmmEMC> Get some corigated card board scraps, then create a crap load of 1" squares in gcode, changeing the speed, velocity, etc cut and engrave a happy face on all of them and start seeing what the results look like
[16:13:14] <Optic> yeah, that's a good idea
[16:13:17] <JymmmEMC> cut out the swuares and examine the cut edges
[16:13:22] <JymmmEMC> squares
[16:13:52] <JymmmEMC> I think you need to look at emulating PPI somehow, I say that as every laser engraver has this feature
[16:14:13] <Optic> what does it stand for again?
[16:14:29] <JymmmEMC> make you can emulate it using spinde speed as PPI (Pulses Per Inch)
[16:14:38] <Optic> ah right
[16:14:58] <Optic> emc can do feed per spindle revolution
[16:15:12] <JymmmEMC> It's basically changeing the laser from 100% duty cycle, to 90%, 75%, etc
[16:15:20] <JymmmEMC> (so to speak)
[16:15:23] <JymmmEMC> PWM
[16:15:42] <Optic> right
[16:15:51] <Optic> well we can pulse the laser very quickly
[16:15:59] <JymmmEMC> Yes, I know =)
[16:16:13] <Optic> we could do a pulse per step
[16:16:13] <JymmmEMC> But use EMC's PWM control ability to adjust the PPI
[16:16:41] <JymmmEMC> 400 PPI is not uncommon, but I'll let you do the math =)
[16:17:16] <Optic> that's cool
[16:17:20] <Optic> i will definately look into it
[16:17:23] <JymmmEMC> Neither is 1200 PPI
[16:17:44] <JymmmEMC> Mind you 1200 PPI would take longer
[16:17:54] <JymmmEMC> but better reolution in the final product
[16:18:05] <Optic> does EMC's pwm work on the parallel port?
[16:18:15] <JymmmEMC> think of it as a DOT-MATRIX printer if you will
[16:18:26] <JymmmEMC> Yes, as spindle control
[16:19:46] <JymmmEMC> So as I see it you want: CUT = 100% On, Off, and PPI from x to y range
[16:20:17] <Optic> that makes sense
[16:20:17] <JymmmEMC> Air-assist could be coolant
[16:20:34] <JymmmEMC> if you decide to add that feature
[16:20:44] <Optic> this device isn't designed at all for cutting
[16:20:55] <Optic> we'd need to make a new bed, some sort material retention, etc
[16:21:14] <JymmmEMC> Eh, anything honeycomb and black will do
[16:21:21] <JymmmEMC> aluminum
[16:21:29] <JymmmEMC> MUST be black though
[16:21:39] <JymmmEMC> flat black
[16:21:52] <Optic> why?
[16:22:07] <JymmmEMC> So the laser doens't bounce back at the material
[16:22:08] <SWPadnos> so nobody gets blinded by reflections
[16:22:12] <Optic> ah
[16:22:51] <Optic> well, the device is enclosed and the lens has a short focal length
[16:22:53] <JymmmEMC> Optic: It WILL spark if it hits reflective material
[16:23:00] <JymmmEMC> Optic: that doens't matter
[16:23:02] <Optic> but having a non-reflective-to-ir surface would be good :)
[16:23:43] <JymmmEMC> besides, you can buy cutting bed material off ebay
[16:23:49] <Optic> oh
[16:23:51] <Optic> awesome
[16:23:51] <JymmmEMC> not always cheap
[16:24:05] <JymmmEMC> maybe $150 or so for the size you have
[16:24:16] <JymmmEMC> but you dont have to use the whole table either
[16:24:23] <Optic> right
[16:25:56] <JymmmEMC> I think this is bullshit, but... http://cgi.ebay.com/Laser-Links-Vector-Cutting-Table-Engraver-Engraving_W0QQitemZ150317553705QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0
[16:26:24] <JymmmEMC> It's not black, and it's frickin chainmail
[16:26:40] <Optic> there are a lot of things that absorb IR
[16:26:53] <Optic> that aren't black
[16:27:20] <JymmmEMC> It's not about absorbing IR, it's also about not ruinng the backside of the material you are workign with, thus air assist
[16:28:32] <JymmmEMC> http://jindiaokj.diytrade.com/sdp/533200/4/pd-2798956/2826349-0.html#normal_img
[16:29:04] <JymmmEMC> THAT's te honeycomb I was talking about, but black is still better, though it does wear off with use.
[16:29:17] <Optic> makes sense
[16:30:21] <JymmmEMC> It's very lightweight aluminum, so maybe you can find an alternative. I have seen some use the 1/2" grid florencent light covers that are chrome plated, but they also caught on fire too and damaged the laser
[16:30:42] <JymmmEMC> so use ALL metal, not plated plastics =)
[16:31:34] <Optic> a friend pointed me to a blog where the author used hacksaw blades quite nicely
[16:32:39] <Optic> http://www.nilno.com/laser_intro/table.html
[22:01:54] <dareposte> dang
[22:01:58] <dareposte> missed it by $100
[22:02:04] <dareposte> darn ebay