#emc | Logs for 2009-02-06

[00:06:59] <BigJohnT> damm, I just busted my ass on the ice OW that smarts
[01:50:05] <seb_kuzminsky> i have a piece of 6061 Al that's 6" x 6" x 0.750", and i want to make it into 6x6x.400
[01:50:10] <seb_kuzminsky> should i use a face mill?
[01:50:30] <seb_kuzminsky> or a fly cutter?
[01:50:34] <seb_kuzminsky> mill file?
[01:50:38] <cradek> whichever you have
[01:50:44] <cradek> fly cutter and face mill are the same animal
[01:50:45] <seb_kuzminsky> file it is then :-/
[01:50:54] <seb_kuzminsky> orly?
[01:50:57] <jmkasunich> cradek: no they aren't
[01:51:07] <jmkasunich> flycutter has one cutting edge, facemill has many
[01:51:13] <cradek> sure
[01:51:19] <cradek> but they work the same
[01:51:23] <cradek> brb
[01:51:48] <jmkasunich> flycutter is only suitable for wimpy cuts, a facemill can remove material
[01:52:11] <jmkasunich> seb_kuzminsky: what tooling do you have (and what kind of mill)?
[01:52:15] <seb_kuzminsky> * seb_kuzminsky clicks the "Order" button by the face mill
[01:52:32] <seb_kuzminsky> i have a little 150-pound benchtop mill (Sieg X2)
[01:52:39] <jmkasunich> out of curiosity, how expensive is the facemill?
[01:52:46] <jmkasunich> and how big?
[01:52:50] <seb_kuzminsky> and the starter's kit of milling cutters, nothing really appropriate
[01:52:53] <seb_kuzminsky> so i'm tooling up!
[01:53:32] <jmkasunich> it's gonna take you a while to remove that much metal with an X2, regardless of what cutter you use
[01:53:32] <seb_kuzminsky> http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1952&category=
[01:53:39] <seb_kuzminsky> surely
[01:53:39] <jmkasunich> that is 27 in^3 of aluminum
[01:53:51] <seb_kuzminsky> no, less
[01:53:57] <jmkasunich> thats not a face mill
[01:54:06] <SWPadnos> 12 or so CI
[01:54:10] <jmkasunich> oops, I took .75 as the material to remove
[01:54:16] <seb_kuzminsky> half of that ;-)
[01:54:29] <seb_kuzminsky> oh yeah, it even doesnt say face mill on it
[01:54:29] <seb_kuzminsky> hmm
[01:54:34] <seb_kuzminsky> * seb_kuzminsky unclicks
[01:54:50] <jmkasunich> thats a face mill: http://jmkasunich.com/pics/facemil1.jpg
[01:55:01] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/pics/facemil3.jpg
[01:55:13] <jmkasunich> a bit much for an X2
[01:55:24] <seb_kuzminsky> looks like it outweighs my vise ;-)
[01:55:36] <jmkasunich> 5.5" dia
[01:55:49] <seb_kuzminsky> lol, that's more than my Y travel
[01:56:41] <jmkasunich> for this 6x6 job, is your goal simply to remove the material, or do you need a very good finish, etc?
[01:57:01] <JymmmEMC> Fly cutter that I have --> http://www.cleavelandtool.com/catalog/webFC53.jpg
[01:57:08] <seb_kuzminsky> i dont need super finish, or great tolerances
[01:57:08] <JymmmEMC> but from Sears
[01:57:10] <jmkasunich> for the best finish you normally would use a flycutter or facemill wide enough to do it in one pass so there is no possibility of a ridge
[01:57:39] <eric_unterhausen> I would go buy a .5" piece of aluminum
[01:57:40] <JymmmEMC> scarry shit too!
[01:57:41] <jmkasunich> that "flycutter" is for making holes in sheet metal (or non-metals), not for facing stuff
[01:58:01] <seb_kuzminsky> jmkasunich: the grumpy old machinist guy at work said to get a facemill with carbide inserts
[01:58:15] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: Yeah, I get scared shitless just using it in wood/plastic... I'll be damn if I try it on metal
[01:58:42] <eric_unterhausen> failing that, I would just use an end mill
[01:58:47] <SWPadnos> it's a hole saw
[01:59:00] <jmkasunich> seb_kuzminsky: grumpy is right
[01:59:07] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: you're a holesaw! =)
[01:59:19] <SWPadnos> watch it! :)
[01:59:22] <jmkasunich> I have no experience with X2 sized machines tho, dunno how big of a facemill it could swing
[02:00:00] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: DRILL YOU! And the spindle you spun in on!
[02:00:06] <eric_unterhausen> x2 flycutter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koYGLVGkRsI
[02:00:08] <SWPadnos> no thanks
[02:00:10] <seb_kuzminsky> the X2 facemill capacity is listed as 1" in the specs
[02:00:25] <jmkasunich> ah
[02:00:41] <jmkasunich> I like the K-Tool face mill, but it is 1.5"
[02:00:44] <jmkasunich> (and not cheap)
[02:00:49] <jmkasunich> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIJNvh22qx4
[02:01:14] <seb_kuzminsky> eric_unterhausen: that's a tormach, not an x2
[02:01:49] <eric_unterhausen> chinese steel is chinese steel
[02:02:06] <jmkasunich> eric_unterhausen: the tormach is 1100 lbs of chinese steel
[02:02:11] <jmkasunich> X2 is quite a bit less than that
[02:02:30] <jmkasunich> http://www.ktoolinc.com/octa/octa-mills/octa-mill.html
[02:02:36] <jmkasunich> ktool sells smakker face mills
[02:02:43] <jmkasunich> smaller
[02:02:55] <seb_kuzminsky> thx, i'll check it out
[02:03:13] <jmkasunich> be sitting when you ask for pricing - the 1.5" one is about $175
[02:03:15] <eric_unterhausen> is the x2 like the one that Jon Elson carries around for demos?
[02:03:19] <jmkasunich> but they _are_ nice cutters
[02:03:36] <eric_unterhausen> with the sheet metal column?
[02:03:54] <jmkasunich> seb_kuzminsky: how much does your X2 weigh (roughly)?
[02:03:55] <eric_unterhausen> 1/2" thick sheet metal column
[02:04:18] <seb_kuzminsky> about 150 lbs
[02:05:25] <seb_kuzminsky> http://www.siegind.com/Products/br-x2-lathe.htm
[02:05:40] <jmkasunich> you might want the OC-875 octamill for that machine
[02:05:43] <seb_kuzminsky> * seb_kuzminsky doesnt know why sieg put "lathe" in the url
[02:05:50] <jmkasunich> can it accept tooling with 3/4" shanks?
[02:05:59] <eric_unterhausen> 1100 pounds of bench mill, that is a heck of a bench
[02:06:10] <seb_kuzminsky> yes, it's got a standard r8 spindle
[02:06:56] <seb_kuzminsky> jmkasunich: yes the -875 or -1000 should work
[02:06:58] <jmkasunich> I have the OC-1575, thats the one in the vids
[02:07:03] <seb_kuzminsky> cool
[02:07:10] <jmkasunich> note the number of inserts, 2, in the 875, 3 in the 1000
[02:07:16] <eric_unterhausen> You can make your PCNC 1100 more effective by adding a CNC Stand, because machining on your knees is pretty tiring
[02:07:18] <jmkasunich> mine has 2
[02:07:30] <seb_kuzminsky> how do the inserts work? i've never used insert-based tooling
[02:07:37] <jmkasunich> three means more $ for inserts, but it might cut a bit smoother
[02:07:48] <seb_kuzminsky> you buy the right kind of replacements and swap them when they get dull?
[02:07:52] <jmkasunich> yes
[02:07:52] <eric_unterhausen> yes
[02:07:55] <seb_kuzminsky> after turning to use all the edges i guess
[02:07:59] <jmkasunich> yes
[02:08:08] <seb_kuzminsky> sounds easier than grinding the flutes :-)
[02:08:45] <eric_unterhausen> they are making wood jointer/planers with indexable tooling nowadays, that's a lot of inserts
[02:09:02] <jmkasunich> heh
[02:09:23] <jmkasunich> I got a tour of a Ford engine plant many years ago (pre-1991, don't recall exactly)
[02:09:35] <seb_kuzminsky> that octa-mill would go in a 3/4" collet i guess
[02:09:36] <jmkasunich> they had a machine that broached the top and bottom of the engine blocks
[02:09:49] <seb_kuzminsky> what's the tradeoff between that and getting one with an r8 shank?
[02:09:52] <jmkasunich> basically a giant moving wall of carbide cutters
[02:10:06] <jmkasunich> is the octamill available with R8?
[02:10:10] <eric_unterhausen> it would be cool to put a joint at the bottom of the X2 column
[02:10:11] <seb_kuzminsky> i dont see one
[02:10:14] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: http://www.c00lstuff.com/354/How_It_s_Made___Engine_Block/
[02:10:29] <JymmmEMC> sorry
[02:10:41] <jmkasunich> seb_kuzminsky: so its a moot point, eh?
[02:10:42] <eric_unterhausen> an r8 version should have less runout and fewer headaches
[02:11:42] <jmkasunich> that broach at Ford completely machined the top of a block in one stroke - both head surfaces (V8), and both intake manifold surfaces (in the valley)
[02:11:48] <seb_kuzminsky> jmkasunich: there are other vendors, here's one: http://stegmantoolcompany.thomasnet.com/viewitems/ide-inserts-indexable-tooling-indexable-face-mills/ace-milling-cutter-rh-cut-with-r8-and-weldon-shank?&forward=1
[02:11:48] <jmkasunich> maybe 15-20 seconds
[02:12:13] <seb_kuzminsky> jmkasunich: that sounds pretty impressive... did you get to see it running?
[02:12:17] <jmkasunich> yes
[02:12:33] <jmkasunich> they were doing production while we walked thru
[02:12:43] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=engine+block+how+its+made&emb=0#
[02:13:00] <jmkasunich> one stroke, top machined, then it flips the block and moves it to the lower half of the moving wall of cutters, and puts a new block at the top
[02:13:25] <jmkasunich> next stroke machines the entire bottom of the first block and the top of the next one
[02:13:34] <jmkasunich> must have been several thousand inserts
[02:14:27] <seb_kuzminsky> each insert takes off a couple thousands, then the next insert takes a couple more, etc?
[02:14:34] <jmkasunich> yep
[02:14:37] <seb_kuzminsky> and they replace them all at the end of the shift?
[02:14:40] <seb_kuzminsky> http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/N2DRVSH?PACACHE=000000083864253
[02:14:47] <jmkasunich> I dunno how often
[02:15:24] <seb_kuzminsky> what's the difference between all the different kinds of inserts?
[02:15:38] <jmkasunich> seb_kuzminsky: it boggles the mind
[02:15:47] <jmkasunich> I don't come close to understanding them all
[02:15:58] <seb_kuzminsky> "the good thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from"
[02:16:08] <jmkasunich> I have personal experience with the octomill (high positive rake), can't speak about others
[02:16:40] <seb_kuzminsky> what's the diff between an indexable face mill and an indexable end mill?
[02:16:56] <seb_kuzminsky> (unified diff if you please)
[02:17:15] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich watching engine blocks
[02:18:13] <seb_kuzminsky> thanks for the pointers guys
[02:18:14] <seb_kuzminsky> bbl
[02:18:23] <jmkasunich> dunno if this is the "accepted" definition, but it seems to me that face mills make wide but shallow cuts, endmills tend to be narrower and deeper
[02:18:46] <jmkasunich> facemill, 1" wide x 1/8" deep, or 4" wide x 1/4" deep, etc
[02:19:36] <SWPadnos> endmills can generally cut with the end or the side, whereas facemills can only cut with the "face"
[02:20:17] <JymmmEMC> HOLY SHIT! That's one hell of a fly cutter in that video!!!
[02:20:19] <cradek> for a small machine I'd make or buy a fly cutter that takes a 1/4 or 3/8 lathe bit. just grind up the shape you want. do you have a bench grinder?
[02:20:35] <jmkasunich> Jymm you mean the facemills near the end?
[02:20:50] <SWPadnos> an endmill also depends on its shape to affect the shape of the milled hole, but a facemill or flycutter depends on the fact that a spinning thing will inscribe a circle that's in a perfectly flat plane (vibration notwithstanding)
[02:20:56] <cradek> I still maintain that flycutters and facemills are the same, except for the number of teeth in the cut
[02:21:14] <cradek> a small machine has enough trouble making one chip at a time
[02:21:18] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: Where they are facing off the the top of the cylender head
[02:21:23] <jmkasunich> by that logic, endmills and facemills are the same too
[02:21:28] <jmkasunich> JymmmEMC: right
[02:21:30] <SWPadnos> cradek, yeah, and maybe some stiffness differences
[02:21:59] <jmkasunich> if you have enough teeth that you can keep one in the cut at all times, it is smoother
[02:22:00] <cradek> jmkasunich: except for diameter and centercutting ability, they are the same
[02:22:20] <jmkasunich> the machine can actually settle down and start cutting, instead of cut, coast, cut, coast
[02:22:42] <cradek> jmkasunich: true but on a small machine I bet a flycut finish might still be better
[02:22:48] <SWPadnos> jmkasunich, yeah, I guess so
[02:23:02] <cradek> if only because sharp HSS is better than almost any insert for low power
[02:23:06] <jmkasunich> finish could be better, but gawd it would take forever
[02:23:37] <cradek> it only has to be faster than finding some 1/2 plate :-)
[02:23:46] <jmkasunich> on the van norman, the difference between just starting a cut (intermittent cutting) and bedded in and working (many teeth) is dramatic
[02:24:00] <cradek> yes, on the bridgeport too
[02:24:15] <jmkasunich> emphasized by the gear noise during the intermittent part
[02:24:26] <cradek> but his machine is more like a sherline than a bridgeport
[02:24:38] <jmkasunich> on the VN, the only limit I've seen so far with the facemill is spindle HP
[02:24:54] <jmkasunich> the 1.5HP VFD will trip on overload before the machine gets unhappy
[02:26:10] <jmkasunich> heh - after 12 cubic inches, the HSS won't be sharp anymore
[02:26:28] <cradek> a flycutter is variable diameter too! might be handy.
[02:27:25] <jmkasunich> seb_kuzminsky: the budget approach is a flycutter, but not like that weird hole-saw thing
[02:27:29] <jmkasunich> more like this:
[02:27:33] <jmkasunich> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=225-3030&PMPXNO=947281&PARTPG=INLMK3
[02:28:13] <cradek> if you have a bench grinder and know how to use it...
[02:28:15] <jmkasunich> but it will be slow - you gotta keep surface speed down to at most a couple hundred SFPM, which isn't much in RPM as the diameter goes up
[02:28:41] <jmkasunich> as RPM goes down, feed has to drop, since cut-per-tooth wants to remain constant
[02:28:51] <jmkasunich> and you wind up crawling
[02:29:00] <jmkasunich> the carbide tools let you keep the speed up
[02:29:14] <jmkasunich> it all depends on your budget I guess
[02:29:40] <jmkasunich> the $20 flycutter will get you there, but will take quite a while, with several stops to regrinde
[02:29:53] <jmkasunich> I bet the K-tool will remove metal 10x faster
[02:31:15] <seb_kuzminsky> heh, the octomill costs the same as the enco flycutter, a bench grinder, and a big pile of tool bits
[02:31:27] <jmkasunich> I'm not surprised
[02:31:40] <jmkasunich> made in the USA, and designed for production use
[02:31:50] <seb_kuzminsky> right
[02:31:54] <seb_kuzminsky> that's not nothing...
[02:32:17] <jmkasunich> the right decision depends on a lot of things
[02:32:25] <jmkasunich> how often do you expect to have to make things flat
[02:32:55] <jmkasunich> whether you just want to get this job done, or if you really are "tooling up" and want to spend some extra $$ to get the good stuff
[02:33:22] <jmkasunich> its a shame you can't try things first
[02:33:42] <seb_kuzminsky> it's cheaper to buy good tools the first time around, than to buy cheap crap *then* buy the good stuff ;-)
[02:33:47] <jmkasunich> is your X2 CNC'ed already?
[02:33:49] <cradek> yeah, that would be a risk of buying a face mill
[02:34:17] <seb_kuzminsky> my x2 is in all its virgin manual glory still
[02:34:21] <jmkasunich> ah
[02:34:29] <seb_kuzminsky> making the parts for a cnc conversion is "on the todo list"
[02:34:38] <jmkasunich> that makes things even more confusing
[02:34:55] <jmkasunich> on the one hand, you have literally hours and hours of cranking ahead of you if you flycut
[02:35:01] <seb_kuzminsky> so taking off 6x6x.5 in .010 increments will give me strong fore-arms ;-)
[02:35:23] <cradek> ugh
[02:35:33] <jmkasunich> on the other, the facemill will want proper feed per tooth - you won't be cranking nearly as long, but you will have to do it at roughly the right speed
[02:36:04] <jmkasunich> given the manual machine, you seriously should go get a piece of aluminum the right size
[02:36:10] <seb_kuzminsky> maybe i should go raid the scrap pile at work
[02:36:37] <jmkasunich> how important is the 0.400", would 3/8" work?
[02:37:30] <cradek> seb_kuzminsky: come on by, I'll cut you a piece
[02:37:47] <jmkasunich> 6 x 6 x 3/8 6061-T651 plate is $23.67 at metal express
[02:37:47] <seb_kuzminsky> cradek: the roadtrip might be cheaper than jmk's facemill ;-)
[02:37:59] <cradek> I think I even have some weird Al plate close to .400
[02:38:03] <cradek> seb_kuzminsky: and more fun
[02:38:25] <jmkasunich> seb_kuzminsky: how much was the facemill? 1" or 7/8" ?
[02:38:38] <seb_kuzminsky> the target is actually 3/8 so i should just buy that
[02:38:46] <jmkasunich> (and how did you get an answer so soon - I had to call a dealer)
[02:39:08] <seb_kuzminsky> just poking around the comparables (near as i could tell) on MSC
[02:39:14] <seb_kuzminsky> $200+
[02:39:23] <seb_kuzminsky> not a fair comparison, i know
[02:39:37] <jmkasunich> I bet it isn't quite that bad, I was quoted $175 for the 1.5"
[02:39:43] <jmkasunich> but still, I bet it would be $150
[02:39:53] <seb_kuzminsky> plus inserts, are they expensive?
[02:40:07] <jmkasunich> anyway.... 3/8 x 6" flat bar (not the same as plate) is $12.74 for a 6" piece
[02:40:16] <jmkasunich> I think it includes the inserts
[02:40:34] <seb_kuzminsky> what's flat bar vs plate?
[02:40:41] <jmkasunich> they are $10-15 each when you need to replace them, but in home shop use that should be after multiple years
[02:41:05] <jmkasunich> flatbar is extruded, the corners are a bit rounded, and the sides may not be extremely flat
[02:41:27] <jmkasunich> plate is much flatter, and they can cut it to whatever size you want
[02:42:07] <seb_kuzminsky> ok i'm convinced: scrounge or buy the right size raw material & save up for good tooling later
[02:42:09] <jmkasunich> metal express isn't local for you, but their website can be educational
[02:42:31] <jmkasunich> http://www.metalexpress.net
[02:42:43] <jmkasunich> click products, then aluminum
[02:42:51] <seb_kuzminsky> right, i see it
[02:42:56] <seb_kuzminsky> that does seem like a good price
[02:43:22] <seb_kuzminsky> wonder if their $5 "handling" charge includes shipping? prolly not
[02:43:35] <jmkasunich> no, shipping depends on weight and distance
[02:44:09] <seb_kuzminsky> makes sense
[02:44:11] <jmkasunich> are you closer to chicago or dallas?
[02:44:22] <seb_kuzminsky> i would guess dallas
[02:44:27] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm near denver, co
[02:44:34] <jmkasunich> I know, but my geography sucks
[02:44:51] <seb_kuzminsky> dallas definately
[02:45:01] <seb_kuzminsky> mine too, but google's is pretty good ;-)
[02:45:07] <jmkasunich> I would call your "local" office - their prices do not track the web, and my experience is that they are cheaper
[02:45:16] <jmkasunich> even if it is going to be shipped
[02:45:27] <seb_kuzminsky> "local" meaning nearest?
[02:45:30] <jmkasunich> I sometimes have them ship, and sometimes pick up, depending on weight mostly
[02:45:32] <jmkasunich> yes
[02:46:14] <seb_kuzminsky> thanks for setting me straight again
[02:46:20] <seb_kuzminsky> bbl
[02:46:22] <jmkasunich> another supplier - I haven't dealt with them: http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?id=60&step=2&top_cat=60
[02:47:01] <jmkasunich> looks like metalmart is cheaper for the bar
[02:47:17] <jmkasunich> $9.60 for a 6" piece (cut to order), or $14.43 for a foot
[02:48:10] <jmkasunich> and $19.80 for 6x6 plate
[02:48:19] <jmkasunich> I might have to give them a try next time
[03:12:12] <cradek> wow, the new MillSetup wiki page mshaver made is going to be useful to folks I bet
[03:12:51] <cradek> a lot of useful concepts all together
[03:13:57] <cradek> can anyone tell me the diameter of a RPGT 1204MOT-ME07 insert?
[03:14:07] <SWPadnos> 1204
[03:14:14] <SWPadnos> with 7 inserts?
[03:14:34] <SWPadnos> (no)
[03:14:46] <cradek> RPGT I get, but for IC diameter it isn't 1 (eighths) or 12 (eighths) so I'm lost already
[03:16:11] <SWPadnos> 20 degree rake, 0.003 width, 15 degree angle
[03:16:23] <SWPadnos> whatever that means
[03:16:33] <cradek> .003 width of what?
[03:16:44] <cradek> (and where did you find this?)
[03:17:04] <SWPadnos> oh wait, diameter is 0.472, s (whatever that is) is .187
[03:17:08] <SWPadnos> http://legacy.secotools.com/upload/north_america/usa/pdf/Milling%20inserts%20265-323.pdf
[03:17:11] <SWPadnos> page 15
[03:17:23] <cradek> .472, of course
[03:17:29] <cradek> darn, I'd rather it be smaller
[03:17:30] <cradek> thanks
[03:17:33] <SWPadnos> sure
[03:17:43] <cradek> so it's not in eighths like the other shapes
[03:18:04] <SWPadnos> damfino :)
[03:18:21] <cradek> crazy innit
[03:19:03] <SWPadnos> yep
[03:19:14] <SWPadnos> 12mm
[03:19:34] <cradek> ohhhh
[03:34:15] <bglackin> got a link to that wiki? or is it in linuxcnc wiki?
[03:34:23] <cradek> yes
[03:40:12] <seb_kuzminsky> bglackin: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?MillSetup
[03:42:50] <bglackin> THanks Seb - I was having trouble finding it
[03:43:27] <seb_kuzminsky> matt shaver posted the link to the emc-users mailing list, that's where i got it
[03:43:58] <cradek> sorry, I didn't mean to be coy, I figured since you mentioned the wiki it was only one click away for you
[03:44:13] <seb_kuzminsky> also you could find it by searching for "millsetup" on the wiki (though searching for "mill setup" with a space doesnt find it...)
[03:44:21] <bglackin> oh - bout 20 or so - gave me a reason to look at some other topics
[03:44:27] <seb_kuzminsky> heh
[03:44:53] <cradek> I like to use the recently-changed search
[03:45:17] <bglackin> downloaded the spreadsheet to do the stepper calcs - paint is drying - tomorrow I dive back in to setup
[03:45:22] <seb_kuzminsky> i compulsively hit "reload" on the RecentChanges page every morning
[03:46:30] <bglackin> Nice primer - bookmarking that
[03:46:56] <seb_kuzminsky> yeah that's a nice "quick start" kind of overview, much appreciated
[03:47:04] <cradek> yes it tackles offsets heads-on
[03:47:29] <cradek> I think people try to avoid learning about them
[03:47:52] <bglackin> I did an offset once and never could figure out how to clear it - kept gettng interrupted everytime I tried to research it )
[03:48:19] <bglackin> finally hand edited the var fileto clear it
[03:48:27] <seb_kuzminsky> lol
[03:48:39] <cradek> I still think we should rot13 the var file
[03:48:57] <seb_kuzminsky> use rot26, it's twice as secure
[03:49:03] <cradek> double-rot13
[03:51:55] <bglackin> gnna have to resolve this calc sheet to tell me how fast I can go rather than tell it how fast I want to go
[03:53:06] <bglackin> doh - I guess I could use the solver function - nice open spreadsheets
[04:16:59] <skunkworksemc> http://imagebin.ca/view/beYceh.html
[04:18:34] <cradek> skunkworksemc: that's just amazing.
[04:19:19] <skunkworksemc> We could send this to mars.. Mission critical ;)
[04:19:45] <skunkworksemc> thats what - 3 days I think
[04:21:42] <seb_kuzminsky> skunkworks: what's the hardware that's running on?
[04:22:39] <skunkworksemc> It is a ecs goal3+ motherboard with a amd athlon 64 processor 3200+
[04:23:21] <cradek> model name: AMD Athlon(tm) XP 1800+
[04:23:31] <cradek> I've had good luck with my athlon too (in the lathe)
[04:23:46] <cradek> I've never seen the latency error since getting the right video card in there
[04:24:14] <skunkworksemc> heh - this is a no-name ati chipset pci-e video card.
[04:25:42] <skunkworksemc> I have not played with enough amd machines to have a feeling for them. This one is awesome.
[04:27:47] <skunkworksemc> time for bed - night.
[04:32:16] <ds3> you turn the athlon to improve it? :D
[04:32:59] <eric_unterhausen> cradek: you have pci millenium?
[04:33:52] <cradek> yes I think all my emc machines have ended up with a matrox of some kind
[04:34:01] <cradek> pci
[04:35:06] <eric_unterhausen> I gotta dig out some of my 486 machines with those video cards in them
[04:35:31] <cradek> hm, 486 != pci, are you sure?
[04:35:59] <eric_unterhausen> would you believe 66 MHz pentium?
[04:36:32] <cradek> oh surely
[04:38:41] <cradek> recently I dug up parts and assembled a 486 scsi system so I could install this, the first Linux distribution I ever used: http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/yggdrasil-beta.jpg
[04:39:46] <cradek> yes it's a photo of the monitor, I couldn't hook the coax ethernet to anything nowadays
[04:43:55] <cradek> fenn: did you do the hexapod vismach? I had no idea the hexapod kins worked that well
[04:45:39] <ds3> Mmmm Yggdrasil CD's
[04:46:02] <seb_kuzminsky> xeyes!
[05:04:20] <JymmmEMC> * JymmmEMC waves his 8Bit ISA SCSI card at cradek
[05:04:43] <JymmmEMC> ...with fdd control built in
[05:04:57] <seb_kuzminsky> it's your all-in-one i/o solution
[05:06:39] <JymmmEMC> Yeah, now I just want *ALL* I/O to be ethernet... No firewire, no usb, no vgs,rgb,dvi,hdmi, serial, parallel, scsi,sata, etc... All ethernet IPv6. Then you can give an Ip address to the toaster AND the toilet, and address anything you want directly
[05:07:15] <JymmmEMC> Oh, and PoE if you can do that with gigabit (not sure)
[05:10:28] <JymmmEMC> And, every device should have it's drivers built in. No more dl'ing or installing drivers, let the system pull the drivers from the device directly
[05:12:05] <JymmmEMC> If you were a gamer, you could have a bunch of random monitors on the network, and address and control anyone of them over the net. that be so cool!
[05:13:05] <JymmmEMC> Plug a hdd into the net, PoE and instant NAS.
[05:13:21] <JymmmEMC> no more freakin walworts!
[05:14:17] <ds3> no pairs free on GigE to do PoE
[05:15:45] <toastyde1th> because i know my toilet needs to be on twitter
[05:15:48] <JymmmEMC> That's what I thought...
[05:16:06] <JymmmEMC> toastyde1th: if you're on twitter, you have other issues!
[05:16:16] <SWPadnos> shittertwitter
[05:16:25] <ds3> you can learn stuff from making ethernet cables yourself ;)
[05:16:57] <toastyde1th> like, for instance, that you should buy them whenever possible
[05:17:09] <toastyde1th> instead of screaming at an inanimate object for ten minutes
[05:17:28] <JymmmEMC> or just learn how to crimp cables properly
[05:17:40] <ds3> crimping cables is easy
[05:18:28] <toastyde1th> it's getting the stupid wires in the little slots and having them stay there that is the crappy part
[08:03:10] <The_Ball> JymmmEMC, you can do PoE with gigabit, it uses phantom power over the signal pairs, well their all active pairs on gigabit
[09:33:05] <micges> good morning
[09:33:27] <micges> is ';' acceptable as a comment in gcode ?
[09:37:29] <micges_mill> I don't remember correctly and in docs there is no info
[09:38:41] <archivist> comments are silly syntax
[09:38:56] <archivist> (comment) iirc
[09:40:19] <micges_mill> yes but someone added alternative syntax
[09:40:55] <archivist> silly because (print......) is not a comment
[09:41:52] <micges_mill> (LOG,...) (LOGOPEN,..) (DEBUG,..) and so on
[09:42:21] <micges_mill> I know them, maybe silly but they working great ;)
[09:42:51] <archivist> I hate click a window on each msg
[09:43:09] <micges_mill> in 2.3 you don't have to click
[09:43:18] <micges_mill> in a 2 months
[09:43:21] <archivist> I heard
[09:43:46] <archivist> but is has it messages IN the wrong area
[09:44:44] <micges_mill> on pyvcp panel ?
[09:45:00] <archivist> needs a scrollable box
[09:47:01] <micges_mill> good idea
[09:47:46] <archivist> needed for debugging gcode (for us hand crafters of code)
[09:50:15] <micges_mill> by hand? what are you making then ?
[09:50:23] <micges_mill> on what machines ?
[09:50:37] <archivist> 4 axis mill
[09:51:24] <archivist> clock gears, helicals gears and escape wheels
[09:51:59] <micges_mill> sounds hard
[09:53:43] <archivist> http://www.youtube.com/user/davethearchivist
[09:55:08] <archivist> I need 5 axis
[09:56:03] <micges> and you making program for THIS by hand ?
[09:56:26] <archivist> yes, dont know any other way yet
[09:57:08] <micges> did you searching any cam for this ?
[09:57:46] <archivist> I have looked at some but they are 3 axis
[09:58:38] <archivist> and they all seem to assume an end mill not the shaped tools I use
[09:59:01] <micges> hole in market I see
[09:59:26] <archivist> maybe
[10:03:03] <archivist> Im tending to produce standardised gcode to handle multiple standard forms
[10:05:08] <pjm_> morning!
[10:05:47] <archivist> its morning?
[10:07:42] <pjm_> yeah i've just got up!
[10:07:45] <pjm_> so it is for me
[10:15:24] <pjm_> archivist i managed to get my VFD running completly from EMC2 last night, even the motor speed is right!!
[10:15:57] <archivist> good, time I did mine
[10:16:04] <pjm_> it is excellent indeed
[10:16:21] <pjm_> i'm using stepgen to generate a pulse train that drives the vfd
[10:16:46] <pjm_> so it is giving a 0 to 6KHz output for 0 to 6000 rpm
[10:23:46] <archivist> I have a 0-10 volt in in the VFD so should be easy enough
[10:25:38] <pjm_> ah yes i thought about using a 0-10V
[10:25:54] <pjm_> with the pwm out but cant decide if it would be better than pulse train
[10:26:41] <archivist> six f one half a dozen of the other
[10:44:05] <alex_joni> archivist: one nice idea would be to have another tab besides preview and DRO which holds the error log
[10:44:47] <archivist> something like that alex_joni
[10:45:27] <alex_joni> that's one of the very few features I like in mini
[10:45:29] <archivist> or an additional panel/box
[10:46:34] <alex_joni> additional should probably be a file
[10:47:22] <archivist> nah needs to be live on screen, file as well would be ok
[10:55:00] <archivist> if your (print...s) are in a subroutine there can be a lot
[11:09:13] <alex_joni> "tail -f" ftw :D
[11:09:18] <alex_joni> or well.. a GUI analog to that
[11:11:23] <archivist> one is watching the machine and the prints at the same time
[11:25:11] <archivist> some times Im re cutting previous work
[12:18:42] <The_Ball> archivist, for crafting 5-axis g-code this might help: http://www.cnc-toolkit.com/ I haven't tried it myself, but when I finish my trunnion table I will give it a go
[12:20:12] <archivist> shame its not open source
[12:21:16] <The_Ball> i hadn't looked into it, i wasn't aware it wasn't
[12:21:48] <archivist> "The CNC Tookit is currently free for non-commercial use, but please consider purchasing it or making a donation if you find it useful. "
[12:23:04] <archivist> bah and needs a signup to yahoo to download!!!
[12:34:03] <alex_joni> Claudi1: ask away..
[12:34:08] <Claudi1> hello, yesterday i asked how to increase the m66 motion digital in and chris or jeff told me that the only thing that i can do is to edit and recompile the source code for the modmot.ko module, well i'm very new on linux so i was wondering if any of you could give me a little help
[12:35:18] <alex_joni> Claudi1: how many do you need?
[12:35:45] <Claudi1> i think 16 would be enough
[12:36:28] <alex_joni> Claudi1: ok, you need to get the source for emc2 first
[12:36:34] <alex_joni> hang on for a link
[12:36:42] <Claudi1> yes i got it already
[12:36:51] <alex_joni> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#On_Ubuntu_6_06_or_8_04_from_source
[12:37:01] <alex_joni> how did you get it? using cvs? or download?
[12:37:05] <Claudi1> i donwloaded with cvs
[12:37:12] <alex_joni> ok
[12:37:19] <alex_joni> what version did you get?
[12:37:24] <Claudi1> 2.2.8
[12:42:57] <Claudi1> i found the source files and the ones that have the digital i/o number but the problem is to compile that because i never used C compilers in linux so i need a simple solution if it exists
[12:44:35] <Claudi1> and i was thinking in recompile only the motmod module and then reeplace it in the modules dir i don't know if that would work
[12:45:38] <alex_joni> do you have a terminal open?
[12:46:26] <Claudi1> i'll open one
[12:46:34] <Claudi1> done
[12:48:13] <alex_joni> Claudi1: type "sudo apt-get build-dep emc2"
[12:49:23] <Claudi1> done
[12:50:10] <Claudi1> this will take a while for download..
[12:51:42] <alex_joni> right
[12:52:11] <alex_joni> Claudi1: then you'll need "sudo apt-get install build-essential"
[12:52:49] <alex_joni> then paragraph 2.4 from here: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#Building_emc2_realtime
[12:53:35] <skunkworksemc> I cannot help myself.. http://imagebin.ca/view/oVW-cLN8.html
[12:54:15] <archivist> * archivist thinks its the same picture each time
[12:55:27] <Claudi1> alex, what shall i do when all of this get installed ?
[12:56:36] <jepler_> jepler_ is now known as jepler
[12:57:10] <Claudi1> or better i tell you when the installation finish
[13:03:16] <alex_joni> yup
[13:10:02] <Claudi1> ok alex, im ready
[13:10:26] <alex_joni> did you run the compile as instructed in paragraph 2.4 from the page I linked?
[13:10:49] <Claudi1> no, wait i'll do it
[13:12:03] <Claudi1> i have a doubt, in wich src dir i have to make this ?
[13:12:26] <Claudi1> in the one of the donwloaded cvs emc ?
[13:13:58] <archivist> get a clean compile before any modification
[13:14:31] <Claudi1> i have it
[13:18:33] <alex_joni> Claudi1: yes, in the src of the downloaded 2.2.8
[13:21:19] <Claudi1> thanks, is compiling it now
[13:22:53] <Claudi1> i've already tried to compile the source of the emc but when i executed ./configure... it said that tcl lib were not available or something like that.. now that hasn,t ocurred, is that because i installed the two packages that you told me ?
[13:29:14] <Claudi1> ok i've done all the commands in the 2.4 paragraph
[13:29:31] <alex_joni> Claudi1: you can now run emc2 from the fresh compiled sources
[13:29:40] <alex_joni> check 2.7 there
[13:33:06] <Claudi1> ok, it worked
[13:33:56] <alex_joni> Claudi1: if that works, then try changing the source of emc2/src/emc/motion/cmcmotcfg.h to have the number of EMCMOT_MAX_DIO and MAX_AIO that you need
[13:34:04] <alex_joni> then go to src/ folder and run "make"
[13:34:39] <alex_joni> after that you can run emc2 again (the same way) and you should see the increased number of motion inputs
[13:35:26] <Claudi1> before i do that i have to close the emc2 that i have executed ?
[13:35:35] <alex_joni> before you run it again, yes
[13:35:59] <alex_joni> (you can edit the file and recompile while it's still running, that doesn't hurt)
[13:37:05] <Claudi1> ok ill try to change the digital i/o and i tell you what happens
[13:42:14] <jepler> it may be that some of the following definitions must also be changed:
[13:42:15] <jepler> src/emc/nml_intf/emc_nml.hh:#define EMC_AUX_MAX_DOUT 4// digital out bytes
[13:42:15] <jepler> src/emc/nml_intf/emc_nml.hh:#define EMC_AUX_MAX_DIN 4// digital in bytes
[13:42:18] <jepler> src/emc/nml_intf/emcglb.h:#define EMC_MAX_DIO 4
[13:42:18] <jepler> src/emc/nml_intf/emcglb.h:#define EMC_MAX_AIO 4
[13:46:39] <Claudi1> ok, it worked and also i tried to link the new motion digital ins to the parport pins and it worked, thank you very much, now one more thing
[13:47:43] <Claudi1> what step should i follow to install the emc definitly with the changes applied ?
[13:48:10] <alex_joni> Claudi1: hmm.. that's a bit trickier
[13:49:16] <alex_joni> one (very simple) thing to do is simply copying the file emc2/rtlib/motmod.ko to /usr/realtime-*/modules/emc2
[13:49:25] <alex_joni> rename the old file, and copy the new one there
[13:49:37] <alex_joni> you need "sudo" or root access to be able to do this
[13:50:07] <Claudi1> and where is the motmod.ko module that i edited?
[13:50:11] <alex_joni> but when emc2 will upgrade your changed file will be overwritten
[13:50:25] <alex_joni> I just typed that.. emc2/rtlib/motmod.ko
[13:53:29] <Claudi1> thanks i found it, so i have to do everything in the console.. i want to know, can i compile this to a .deb file to install it whenever i need it ?
[13:53:39] <alex_joni> Claudi1: yes
[13:53:41] <Claudi1> because we have many machines to apply this config
[13:53:52] <alex_joni> how many? :)
[13:54:02] <Claudi1> now 2 thar are working manually
[13:54:21] <Claudi1> and we have to automate them
[13:54:39] <alex_joni> Claudi1: the next version of emc2 (2.3.0) will already have this fix
[13:54:43] <Claudi1> one is a cam grinder and the other one is a cilindrical grinder
[13:54:50] <alex_joni> but it will be a bit before it's release
[13:54:56] <alex_joni> probably ~2 months
[13:55:33] <Claudi1> yes, but i just wanted to try because may be we could automate the machines before the new version comes out
[13:56:30] <alex_joni> so it depends on you if you want to build a deb now or not
[13:56:40] <alex_joni> ok, guess the answer is "lets build a deb ;)"
[13:56:44] <jepler> to build a debian package with a change you made is several steps: run "dch -n" and type a message that describes the change you made. then run "debian/configure -r". then run "dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc -us". This will create some .deb packages in the directory above the "emc2" directory.
[13:56:59] <jepler> dch is from the package "devscripts", if you don't have it yet
[13:57:14] <alex_joni> and he probably needs fakeroot too
[13:57:34] <alex_joni> sudo apt-get install fakeroot devscripts
[13:57:42] <jepler> yes probably so
[13:57:45] <jepler> bbl
[13:57:57] <Claudi1> i red in a forum or something about a package that generates the deb installer with the command check install
[13:58:14] <alex_joni> Claudi1: yes, that's common to use if the program has no support for debian
[13:58:29] <alex_joni> but emc2 has support for building debian packages, so you shouldn't use checkinstall
[13:58:40] <alex_joni> go to the top source dir (say emc2)
[13:58:49] <alex_joni> then run the commands jepler just pasted
[13:59:19] <Claudi1> ok, ill do it
[14:04:56] <Claudi1> i have a problem with the fakeroot thing
[14:05:04] <Claudi1> everything else worked
[14:05:13] <Claudi1> oh
[14:05:15] <Claudi1> sorry
[14:05:32] <Claudi1> alex already wrote the answer
[14:15:44] <Claudi1> well, that generated a tar.gz file so it would work
[14:16:52] <Claudi1> i am very much obliged to you guys for this, it really helped me thanks
[14:17:30] <alex_joni> err.. no
[14:17:35] <alex_joni> a tar.gz doesn't really help
[14:17:41] <alex_joni> you need to see a .deb
[14:17:59] <Claudi1> can i use the command checkinstall ?
[14:19:57] <alex_joni> no, the command you used above should have built 2 deb files
[14:20:09] <alex_joni> what was the last message?
[14:20:38] <Claudi1> Sin informaciĆ³n para convertir los archivos de formato gif a png.
[14:20:38] <Claudi1> Defina un convertidor en las preferencias.
[14:20:38] <Claudi1> make[1]: *** [../docs/src/Master_User.pdf] Error 1
[14:20:38] <Claudi1> make[1]: se sale del directorio `/home/marsaglia/emc2.2.8/src'
[14:20:38] <Claudi1> make: *** [build-stamp] Error 2
[14:20:38] <Claudi1> dpkg-buildpackage: fallo: debian/rules build gave error exit status 2
[14:21:54] <alex_joni> sudo apt-get install imagemagick
[14:22:14] <alex_joni> then run the dpkg-buildpackage again
[14:22:35] <Claudi1> thanks again alex, let me try and i tell you
[14:31:58] <Claudi1> again a tar.gz file
[14:33:54] <alex_joni> Claudi1: it's normal if it builds the tar.gz
[14:33:58] <alex_joni> it should also build a deb
[14:34:04] <alex_joni> probably another error like above
[14:35:29] <Claudi1> could be that i don't have some .deb package for building?
[14:40:08] <Claudi1> i checked again, now the .deb was created
[14:42:11] <Claudi1> thanks for everything, i have to go, we'll talk later
[14:42:22] <Claudi1> bye
[15:37:35] <fenn> "< cradek> did you do the hexapod vismach?" yeah it's fun isnt it? i like how it bounces off the end of travel (z=0) but notice how the struts don't point exactly at the cardan joints.. thats the bug in vismach::Track i'm trying to fix
[15:37:57] <cradek> neat
[15:38:32] <fenn> the formula i originally used for finding a/b angle coordinates was wrong
[15:57:41] <seb_kuzminsky> another noob machining question...
[15:57:47] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm thinking about how to make this:
[15:58:02] <seb_kuzminsky> http://www.hossmachine.info/images/belt%20conversion%20motor%20plate.jpg
[15:58:08] <seb_kuzminsky> it's the one on the far left here:
[15:58:17] <seb_kuzminsky> http://www.hossmachine.info/images/belt%20conversion%206_800x600.jpg
[15:58:38] <seb_kuzminsky> should i make the big (2.7" diameter) hole with a boring bar in the mill?
[15:59:00] <seb_kuzminsky> start by drilling up to the biggest drill bit i have
[15:59:15] <seb_kuzminsky> then expand in steps using a boring head & bar?
[15:59:22] <cradek> close
[15:59:37] <cradek> blue the plate and scribe the circle with a compass
[15:59:50] <cradek> then drive your end mill around in a mostly-circular way to get the bulk of the material out
[15:59:59] <cradek> then switch to the boring head to make it round again
[16:00:12] <cradek> otherwise you'll be boring for a year
[16:00:28] <seb_kuzminsky> that makes sense, thanks
[16:00:37] <cradek> or, use a rotary table and end mill
[16:00:42] <cradek> that's the better way, surely
[16:01:12] <archivist> * archivist uses rotary table some times for that sort of work
[16:01:24] <cradek> but you can sure rough a circle manually if you don't have a rotary.
[16:01:38] <seb_kuzminsky> is a rotary table still useful after the cnc conversion? i guess i could cnc the rotary and use it as a 4th axis
[16:02:01] <archivist> sure is I use the rotary a lot
[16:02:03] <cradek> not too useful unless you want to do cylindrical stuff
[16:02:22] <cradek> you probably don't have the Z travel to use much of a vertical rotary though
[16:02:29] <seb_kuzminsky> good point
[16:02:35] <pjm_> seb_kuzminsky hi, i just made a motor mount almost the same; http://pjm.dyndns.org/cam/3ph_motor_mount_ali1.jpg
[16:03:06] <seb_kuzminsky> that looks nice pjm_ !
[16:03:07] <archivist> get an angle plate and put the rotary on that
[16:03:22] <cradek> pjm_: I bet it wouldn't have so many nice round corners if you had to cut it manually :-)
[16:03:23] <pjm_> seb_kuzminsky thanks, it was done with a 5mm FC3 cutter only
[16:03:27] <pjm_> hahh
[16:03:39] <pjm_> i dread to think how long it would take on a manual mill
[16:03:45] <cradek> very nicely done
[16:03:49] <seb_kuzminsky> i'll tell you in about a few years ;-)
[16:04:02] <cradek> I don't see flats on the arc reversals. your machine must be tight.
[16:04:05] <pjm_> thanks! well it was EMC2 that did all the hard work, i just drank cups of tea and watched it ;-)
[16:04:10] <fenn> does it even have to be a circle? could just be a square hole i bet
[16:04:35] <pjm_> cradek there is a lot of slop in the axis ;-( about 0.002" on X and 0.003" on Y
[16:04:39] <seb_kuzminsky> i bet you're right: http://www.hossmachine.info/images/IMG_0291_800x600.jpg
[16:04:53] <seb_kuzminsky> a pulley goes under that plate
[16:05:16] <seb_kuzminsky> pjm_: x2?
[16:05:18] <archivist> motors have a circular register
[16:05:36] <cradek> yeah I think the circle is part of the mount. the screws look small.
[16:06:02] <pjm_> seb_kuzminsky my machine is a home made contraption
[16:06:13] <seb_kuzminsky> here's the mating surface on the motor: http://www.hossmachine.info/images/IMG_0288_800x600.jpg
[16:06:21] <seb_kuzminsky> pjm_: cool
[16:06:24] <pjm_> seb_kuzminsky some pics of it http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Pjm
[16:06:53] <seb_kuzminsky> x2 head at least right?
[16:07:01] <cradek> seb_kuzminsky: is that slot for pivoting around the .250 hole?
[16:07:20] <pjm_> seb_kuzminsky it was a mini-mill head from 'little machine shop'
[16:07:47] <seb_kuzminsky> cradek: yes, for swinging the motor back to tighten the drive belt
[16:08:04] <cradek> hm, would be much better as an arc then
[16:08:23] <seb_kuzminsky> it's designed to be made without cnc (or a rotary, i guess)
[16:08:29] <cradek> yeah, very hard to do manually
[16:08:58] <seb_kuzminsky> maybe i'll ask pjm_ for his drawing after i finally get mine cnc-converted, and upgrade the spindle motor mount then :-D
[16:09:09] <pjm_> seb_kuzminsky all the stuff is in http://pjm.dyndns.org/cam
[16:09:21] <seb_kuzminsky> ftw! thanks :-)
[16:09:24] <pjm_> http://pjm.dyndns.org/cam/3ph_motor_mount.jpg is the actual screenshot from the cam soft
[16:10:23] <pjm_> help yourself to anything in there! (usual caveats apply - i'm not an engineer)
[16:10:58] <seb_kuzminsky> looks impressive
[16:11:04] <seb_kuzminsky> how you like cambam?
[16:11:17] <pjm_> well its easy, and a dummy like me can use it ;-)
[16:11:39] <pjm_> to be honest i've not tried any others, it was the first one in the list when i was googling
[16:11:58] <pjm_> it did have some annoyances, but I discovered that was down to user error
[16:12:11] <pjm_> i.e. I didnt know about 'post processors'
[16:12:47] <pjm_> anyway, having corrected the user-error, it is now excellent! and I use it for everything i need to make
[16:12:51] <cradek> seb_kuzminsky: if you're creative you can pivot on the hole and drive the rotation with a long handle attached firmly to the workpiece
[16:13:30] <cradek> preferably you could set up some kind of mounting that doesn't let the cutter lift the workpiece
[16:15:42] <cradek> also, be sure to use 2 or 3 flute end mill for slotting (cutting on both sides of the mill at once), never 4
[16:16:06] <cradek> (sorry if I tell you stuff you already know - I don't know how much machining you have done before)
[16:25:25] <jst_home_> cradek: just curious, why never a 4 flute cutter for slotting?
[16:27:33] <jst_home_> * jst_home_ has not done a lot of machining before
[16:28:57] <archivist> 2 flute slot drill can plunge
[16:29:23] <archivist> it cuts in the center
[16:30:03] <toastatwork> 4 flute usually does as well, what happens though is there's very little chip clearance in a 4 flute
[16:30:20] <jst_home_> toastatwork: as, that makes sense
[16:30:30] <toastatwork> so once you're slotting, the chips tend to clog the flutes, or worse, get stuck in front of the tooth
[16:30:40] <toastatwork> and then the tooth squeezes the chip instead of cutting something, and it breaks
[16:31:14] <jst_home_> and yeah, most of my 4 flute end mills cut in the center
[16:31:14] <jst_home_> thanks guys
[16:31:14] <jst_home_> * jst_home_ has to run
[16:32:10] <archivist> cutting previous chips cause poor finish
[16:35:17] <toastatwork> that too
[16:40:48] <cradek> I think it's because 2/3 flute mills are either cutting the front or the sides, never both at once. a 4 flute will be pushed sideways by cutting in front, but there is a tooth to dig in to the side of the cut when that happens
[16:41:25] <cradek> if you try both you will see that 2 flute works much much better than 4 when slotting.
[16:41:41] <toastatwork> 2 flute is also pushed sideways
[16:41:44] <toastatwork> all endmills are
[16:41:44] <cradek> only use 4 flute when side milling and cutting less than half the cutter width
[16:41:56] <cradek> toastatwork: yes, but there is no flute to dig in to the side wall and mess it up when that happens
[16:42:07] <toastatwork> i slot all the time with 4 flute
[16:42:13] <toastatwork> the difference has been chip evacuation
[16:42:24] <toastatwork> when you have a high volume coolant flood, there's no difference between 2/4 flute slotting
[16:43:03] <cradek> how large diameter of mills are you talking?
[16:43:21] <toastatwork> 1/8th, usually, but sometimes up to 1-1/2"
[16:43:54] <cradek> you slot with 1/8 4 flute? hmm, I wouldn't expect that to work very well. what material and how deep?
[16:45:49] <cradek> (I like 3 flute the best of all, but unfortunately there aren't plentiful cheap imported ones)
[16:46:51] <BigJohnT> I slot with 1/8 4 flute but DOC ain't much :) and gotta have a sharp one... except for 6061 I use a 2 flute carbide one
[16:47:41] <toastatwork> cradek aluminum and stainless steel
[16:47:53] <toastatwork> less often, mild carbon
[16:47:58] <toastatwork> *carbon steel
[16:48:27] <toastatwork> depth is .070-.125
[16:48:58] <toastatwork> but if the coolant dies off, the endmill only has a couple seconds before the chips pile up and snap it
[16:50:02] <toastatwork> airblast has worked too, on machines that don't have the coolant volume
[16:50:09] <toastatwork> but i don't have all that much experience with airblast
[16:50:23] <cradek> that's something I've been wanting to try for aluminum
[16:50:43] <cradek> I have a lot of air available now
[16:50:54] <cradek> not sure if in the end it would be any less of a mess to clean up :-)
[16:51:04] <toastatwork> it's a huge mess to clean up if you don't have an enclosure
[16:51:08] <archivist> Im only going to about .04 deep and in brass without the luxury of coolant, I have to puff the chips, not snapped one yet
[16:51:18] <toastatwork> but if you can even make like an mdf cap for your machine, it makes a huge difference
[16:51:18] <BigJohnT> I just have air on the mill
[16:51:33] <toastatwork> the airblast does, that is, not the cap
[16:51:40] <toastatwork> cap/enclosure
[16:53:10] <cradek> archivist: brass is sure nice to cut
[16:58:45] <cradek> this was interesting, thanks, I didn't think there would be debate about that.
[16:59:16] <toastatwork> ?
[16:59:46] <toastatwork> re: 2/4?
[16:59:46] <cradek> slotting, number of flutes
[17:03:20] <archivist> cradek, brass can be nice but there are some less nice varieties
[17:04:21] <archivist> cast brass we get is a bit sticky
[17:06:25] <fenn> try quenching it?
[17:07:39] <archivist> brass and heat treatment and quenching brings up another can of worms
[17:08:09] <mshaver> Not exactly on topic: Does anybody know a source for ready made spacer plates for stepper motors (NEMA 34 in this case)? What I mean is a plate that has flat, parallel sides, through holes for the 4 mounting screws, a hole in the center to clear the shaft, a bore on one side to accept the spigot on the face of the motor, and a matching spigot on the other side that mimics the one on the motor to fit in the bore on the original moto
[17:08:10] <SWPadnos> well, of course worms are going to be a bit sticky
[17:08:58] <SWPadnos> mshaver, you got cut off after "fit in the bore on the original moto"
[17:09:04] <archivist> mshaver, they come off your mill or lathe :)
[17:09:09] <SWPadnos> I thikn maybe we only missed one "r" though
[17:09:30] <archivist> * archivist missed an or
[17:09:35] <mshaver> fit in the bore on the original motor mount. Thickness needed is about 1/4". What I need to do is replace rigid shaft couplings with flexible ones, but the flexible couplings are longer and I need to move the motor farther away axially from the end of the ball screw to accommodate the extra length of the flexible coupling. Of course, I'm in a vomiting hurry to do this...
[17:09:59] <mshaver> there's a character limit?
[17:10:02] <SWPadnos> thick 1/4" tall standoffs
[17:10:03] <SWPadnos> yes
[17:10:04] <archivist> yes
[17:10:05] <mshaver> who knew...
[17:10:09] <SWPadnos> per line, there is
[17:10:19] <archivist> all of us, but you
[17:10:26] <cradek> how many do you need?
[17:10:29] <mshaver> that figures
[17:10:29] <SWPadnos> if you have a multiline entry option, you can enter more stuff, but it will be throttled (per line)
[17:10:46] <fenn> mshaver: can't you just use short cylinder standoffs on each screw?
[17:10:51] <mshaver> 1 or 2 now, 10-20 sooner or later
[17:11:31] <fenn> like the "unthreaded spacers" from hardware stores
[17:11:32] <SWPadnos> all you really need is a piece of reasonably heavy tube that's cut to length
[17:11:53] <SWPadnos> though a plate does look better
[17:11:56] <mshaver> Re: spacers: It would work, but leave a gap between the original motor mount and the face of the motor, into which chip & stuff could get.
[17:12:05] <fenn> duct tape! :)
[17:12:09] <cradek> those would sure be easier to make, but you lose the location by the motor stickout
[17:12:24] <mshaver> the tube idea I like
[17:12:34] <SWPadnos> square tube about NEMA34 size :)
[17:12:45] <SWPadnos> but cradek is right, you lose the location boss from the botor face
[17:12:48] <SWPadnos> motor
[17:12:54] <archivist> tube can have the register machined
[17:13:09] <fenn> that would be seriously thick walled tube
[17:13:24] <mshaver> well, I could get thick wall tube and bore one end to fit the motor spigot and the other to fit in the bore of the original mount
[17:13:29] <archivist> nah just the right size tube
[17:13:39] <mshaver> I'm thinking a round tube
[17:13:43] <SWPadnos> mshaver, I haven't found any on google, and it seems all the suggestions here are on how to fabricate them easier :)
[17:13:43] <fenn> yeah round tube would be better
[17:14:01] <mshaver> the screws on the outside could have sleeves over them
[17:14:10] <archivist> spacers and tape to hide the ga[
[17:14:15] <SWPadnos> which avoids the question of whether they're available to buy
[17:14:23] <cradek> getting four sleeves and one tube the same length sounds harder than making it from plate
[17:14:47] <fenn> no just one tube and long screws
[17:14:53] <mshaver> archivist: I actually thought of spacers and a ring of giant heat shrink tubing
[17:15:14] <archivist> mshaver, or tin plate and a clamp
[17:15:18] <cradek> yeah if you could get by with the screws being exposed, it's easy
[17:15:39] <archivist> * archivist has some nude screws
[17:15:43] <fenn> and if you use clear heat shrink (or packing tape) you get to see the motor spinning around
[17:16:02] <fenn> oo CNC porn, pics plz
[17:16:04] <mshaver> cradek: yes, the sleeves I was thinking of would be just decorative. Shorter by .010"-.020" than the actual spacer.
[17:16:28] <archivist> easy to fit the coupling in the gap prior to putting the cover on
[17:16:32] <mshaver> I can probably do without the screw covers ;)
[17:17:38] <mshaver> Thanks for the suggestions! Many brains make, uh, easy thinking?
[17:19:02] <cradek> nobody answered your question :-)
[17:19:34] <archivist> neary snuff
[17:19:55] <mshaver> no answer was, in a way, an answer
[17:20:16] <mshaver> and it's a new product idea for someone!
[17:20:36] <cradek> bench grinder, meet motor shaft
[17:20:40] <SWPadnos> you might search for "transition plates"
[17:20:53] <SWPadnos> that's a term I just found while searching
[17:21:09] <SWPadnos> but they're generally for adapting NEMAxxx to NEMAyyy
[17:21:41] <SWPadnos> (which is what I need, so if you have any adapters for NEMA34 mounts -> NEMA42 motors, let me know :) )
[17:21:59] <mshaver> cradek: I thought of that, but if someone wanted a replacement motor in the future... Also, I'm afraid of heating the rotor and its magnets.
[17:22:27] <cradek> yeah, not sure how serious I was, but the solution does come to mind
[17:22:36] <mshaver> SWPadnos: I've made those before.
[17:23:33] <SWPadnos> oh look, all the critical dimensions in one PDF: http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/in/tl-in002_-en-p.pdf
[17:23:34] <SWPadnos> :)
[17:26:24] <mshaver> SWPadnos: printing that for the guy who'll have to make something up to impress upon him the seriousness of the task.
[17:26:31] <SWPadnos> heh
[17:28:06] <SWPadnos> I imagine the big issue for fabrication is concentricity of the locating boss/well
[17:28:56] <cradek> seems like you could just mill the female one and invert it over a male attached to the table to do the other side
[17:29:16] <SWPadnos> yep, if you're doing it on a mill
[17:29:20] <archivist> thats why I think tube wins as that can be done correctly on a lathe
[17:29:23] <SWPadnos> I was thinking of lathe setups
[17:29:53] <SWPadnos> once you get the center bored out, you have a good locating hole anyway, so tube vs. plate should be a non-issue
[17:29:59] <cradek> archivist: that's true but it really wants to be square :-/
[17:30:03] <archivist> male spigot is part of parting off
[17:32:10] <archivist> * archivist grumbles at a fail to connect to http://literature.rockwellautomation.com
[17:34:57] <BigJohnT> I think I'll take the rest of the day off :)
[17:36:49] <archivist> BigJohnT, ask the boss first if you can have time off
[17:37:03] <BigJohnT> I'm the boss today
[17:37:26] <archivist> Im off for a few days next week
[17:40:14] <BigJohnT> talk to you guys later :)
[18:00:49] <Guest575> uh oh - looks like I lost internet at home.
[18:01:48] <seb_kuzminsky> i just lost internet at home too - comcast cable in boulder colorado
[18:02:12] <Guest575> Guest575 is now known as skunkworks
[18:05:03] <seb_kuzminsky> cradek: thanks for the machining suggestions above, i learned something today :-)
[18:13:32] <cradek> anytime
[18:17:01] <JanVanGilsen> gilsen"
[18:49:24] <motioncontrol> good evening.some day before i poste one question for use the hm2_pci driver with two card in one pc, but i have now the problem.when i load the m5i20 old driver the emc load ok, but whit hm2_pci driver emc is in error.
[18:49:35] <seb_kuzminsky> hi motioncontrol
[18:49:43] <motioncontrol> hi seb
[18:49:55] <motioncontrol> you can hel me
[18:50:10] <seb_kuzminsky> well i can try - first i need to know what error you're getting
[18:50:12] <seb_kuzminsky> pastebin?
[18:51:08] <motioncontrol> ok i have connection pc development at intertent and is possible test immediately i copy in pastebin the error, one moment
[18:52:10] <motioncontrol> http://pastebin.ca/1329248
[18:52:42] <seb_kuzminsky> looking
[18:53:44] <seb_kuzminsky> is that with 2.2.8?
[18:53:56] <motioncontrol> yes with 2.2.8
[18:54:05] <motioncontrol> i have compile with debian
[18:54:15] <motioncontrol> and rtai 3.6
[18:54:18] <seb_kuzminsky> ok that's a bug in the hostmot2 driver in 2.2.8, there are two ways to fix it
[18:54:43] <seb_kuzminsky> either upgrade to trunk (check out trunk via cvs, and compile it)
[18:54:55] <seb_kuzminsky> or change your config so you enable at least one encoder
[18:55:31] <seb_kuzminsky> the encoder's pins would still be available to you as input gpio pins, you just can't switch them to be outputs
[18:56:10] <motioncontrol> i dont't know this step
[18:56:30] <SWPadnos> change num_encoders=0 to num_encoders=1
[18:56:38] <SWPadnos> for the second card
[18:56:45] <seb_kuzminsky> in your hal file
[18:57:05] <motioncontrol> ok i reboot because the raltime not unload
[18:57:07] <SWPadnos> updating to TRUNK is probably the better approach though, there are several fixes there, including this one
[18:57:28] <motioncontrol> which upgrade to trunk?
[18:57:37] <SWPadnos> your cvs checkout
[18:57:58] <SWPadnos> cvs up -dpA in your checkout directory
[18:58:01] <seb_kuzminsky> motioncontrol: did you compile from source? or install the .deb debian package?
[18:58:13] <SWPadnos> it's on lenny SMP, I'm betting compiled :)
[18:58:26] <motioncontrol> i want compile the source
[18:58:34] <seb_kuzminsky> we want you to, too ;-)
[18:58:44] <seb_kuzminsky> SWPadnos: oh yeah good point
[18:58:49] <SWPadnos> :)
[18:59:33] <motioncontrol> one moment i traslate
[19:00:41] <motioncontrol> ok i want compile because i want create the addon with labview in emc
[19:00:55] <SWPadnos> ewwww
[19:01:03] <seb_kuzminsky> * seb_kuzminsky coughs
[19:01:16] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos dislikes labview a lot
[19:01:42] <seb_kuzminsky> labview is a little like our HAL, right? i havent really played with it
[19:02:52] <motioncontrol> i working whit labview and i create in c and labview one cnc control with interpreter iso and i/O profibus(www.flexmotioncnc.com)
[19:04:19] <motioncontrol> i dont' understand cvs procedure , excuse but i know linux only one mounth
[19:04:45] <SWPadnos> HAL and LabView have a similar dataflow / module connection concept, but they're vastly different
[19:05:03] <SWPadnos> existing HAL modules offer a tiny subset of what LabView offers
[19:05:25] <SWPadnos> LabView realtime doesn't work anywhere near as well as HAL realtime
[19:06:29] <motioncontrol> ok i want use labview for read and write in halui interface
[19:07:12] <motioncontrol> you thing is possible?
[19:07:46] <SWPadnos> do you have LabView for Linux?
[19:08:00] <motioncontrol> yes i have lab 8.2 for linux
[19:08:09] <SWPadnos> then it's probably possible
[19:09:01] <motioncontrol> ok SW when i start the progect if you want you can collaboration with me
[19:10:37] <SWPadnos> no thanks :)
[19:10:52] <SWPadnos> I really don't like LabView, and I don't have any version for Linux
[19:11:01] <SWPadnos> in fact, the latest version I have is 8.0.1
[19:11:15] <motioncontrol> ok no problem .SWPadnos i dont't understank trunk procedure
[19:11:20] <SWPadnos> so I wouldn't even be able to load any examples you made, and you wouldn't be able to save them so I could
[19:11:37] <SWPadnos> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2
[19:13:25] <motioncontrol> very long procedure.not exist one ftp on the ultimate source debug?
[19:13:40] <SWPadnos> ?
[19:13:50] <SWPadnos> getting the source is only one part of the process
[19:14:08] <SWPadnos> you also need to compile it, and for that you need to have certain things installed on your system
[19:14:10] <seb_kuzminsky> motioncontrol: didnt you already compile 2.2.8 from source?
[19:14:27] <SWPadnos> most of the procedure there is about installing CVS, compilers, and other dependencies
[19:14:33] <SWPadnos> which only needs to be done once
[19:18:21] <motioncontrol> excuse for my ignorance. i have compile the sorce emc2.2.8 with no problem.i want the new source the emc2 with new fixed and i compile egual at emc2.2.8
[19:19:22] <motioncontrol> i have download 2.2.8 pakage and i have compile it
[19:20:00] <motioncontrol> the cvs is the new version the emc?
[19:21:49] <SWPadnos> the code in CVS is the current development code
[19:21:57] <SWPadnos> so it's the latest you can get
[19:22:27] <motioncontrol> ok exist the site or ftp for dowload the ultimate code?
[19:22:48] <seb_kuzminsky> motioncontrol: yes, it's the cvs site that SWPadnos gave you
[19:22:58] <seb_kuzminsky> that has the absolute latest version of the code
[19:23:03] <SWPadnos> if you go to http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/ you can download a tarball of the emc2 code
[19:23:20] <SWPadnos> go to the emc2/ module, and there will be a tarball link at the bottom of the page
[19:24:43] <motioncontrol> ok very thank i dowload tar file and i dearchive it and compile it.this version have the utimate fixed ?
[19:25:16] <SWPadnos> it is the latest
[19:25:20] <SWPadnos> there may still be bugs
[19:25:29] <SWPadnos> got to go. good luck
[19:26:20] <motioncontrol> thanks for all and good work
[19:34:42] <motioncontrol> ok i restart and i have modification the encoder line at ! for second card and start all ok
[19:34:56] <seb_kuzminsky> yay!
[19:35:46] <seb_kuzminsky> one thing to be aware of is that some hostmot2 things in HAL are different in 2.2.8 and Trunk
[19:36:12] <seb_kuzminsky> specifically, the name of the hm2 gpios changed between 2.2.8 and trunk
[19:36:18] <motioncontrol> seb excuse in cvs site i not see the tar archive but the tree structure the emc .
[19:36:49] <seb_kuzminsky> in 2.2.8 the names include the connector and the io number (from the mesa manual), but in trunk they just have the io number
[19:37:12] <seb_kuzminsky> so if you have any hal files that work with the gpios, those might need to be updated (just remove the connector name from the gpio hal names)
[19:38:14] <motioncontrol> i thing no problem the name connector because the pin is progressive input and after output.i dont't know the step for change the name pin
[19:38:38] <seb_kuzminsky> bbl
[19:41:20] <motioncontrol> seb which change the name pin associate
[19:43:08] <motioncontrol> i dont't have dowload cvs version.i have modification my emc2.2.8 version for start 2 card with hm2_pci driver.i have modification line encoder at 1 for second card
[19:43:28] <motioncontrol> start ok
[19:52:57] <fenn> seems like i better get to work on a graphical hal configurator before people start making sub-optimal solutions
[19:57:52] <cradek> fenn: what specifically?
[19:59:47] <jepler> there are a lot of different middle grounds between stepconf and "well, I guess you'd better write 600 lines of hal files in your text editor, then". I thin kthat's what fenn is talking about.
[20:02:51] <fenn> something like a circuit layout tool
[20:03:11] <fenn> probably steal some code from liquidpcb.org
[20:03:35] <motioncontrol> good evening. i dont't see on the http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/emc2/ , the cvs version compress in ter file.which dowload all directory ?
[20:04:07] <motioncontrol> excuse i rewrite .tar file
[20:04:08] <cradek> you did not look very hard. it is at the bottom of the page.
[20:04:26] <cradek> "Download this directory in tarball"
[20:04:41] <jepler> fenn: I wanted to try that out but I wasn't able to get it to build on hardy. cmake couldn't find some file related to freetype. Were you able to build it? what system?
[20:04:49] <cradek> fenn: seems like that's an enduring vision for a hal configurator. It would be neat.
[20:05:39] <motioncontrol> excuse my ignorance
[20:05:40] <jepler> fenn: as someone who programmed for many years before learning to read an electronics schematic, let me assure you that schematics appear totally impenetrable to a newbie.
[20:05:54] <cradek> motioncontrol: sorry, I didn't intend to be mean
[20:06:18] <fenn> this will have lots of words in english, not circuit symbols
[20:06:22] <ds3> schematics are much easier to read then any code
[20:06:29] <ds3> schematics make sense, code barely does
[20:06:50] <motioncontrol> no problem my ignoranse is true, because i known linux and emc only 1 mounth
[20:07:35] <fenn> like this but less pictures http://www.webteacher.ws/img/aviary/peacock.jpg
[20:08:22] <fenn> and more wires :)
[20:13:55] <maddash> maddash is now known as Guest26053
[20:22:10] <jepler> ds3: I assure you it's totally a matter of what you're familiar with. I'm not saying that code is easy; I'm saying that at a certain point in learning about electronics, code made a lot more sense than schematics to me
[20:26:03] <fenn> there's a lot of 'idiomatic circuits' in schematics
[20:26:13] <fenn> things like pullup resistor, or RC filter
[20:26:30] <fenn> nobody bothers explaining them and you're just like "why are there capacitors and resistors everywhere!"
[20:27:20] <motioncontrol> ok i have dowload the cvs version recompile on debian 2.6.22 kernel and rtai 3.6 and load the firmware on 2 m5i20 card. fuction all ok very tanks
[20:28:47] <motioncontrol> excuse my english : very thanks
[20:29:00] <ds3> even programming started out with "schematics" (flow charts and such)
[22:09:09] <jepler> huh, never heard of "funopen" before. doesn't look like linux actually has funopen :( http://www.digipedia.pl/man/fwopen.3.html
[22:09:14] <jepler> I guess I'll have to switch to bsd