#emc | Logs for 2009-02-05

[00:02:19] <skunkworksemc> http://imagebin.ca/view/pxM7L0N.html
[00:03:49] <SWPadnos> ok, not much change
[00:04:03] <SWPadnos> I'll see what happens here with offboard video
[00:04:38] <skunkworks> seems to help ;)
[01:35:37] <skunkworksemc> ok - one more.. http://imagebin.ca/view/MoU_f_H.html
[01:36:18] <skunkworksemc> it is a bit sluggish at the moment ;)
[01:41:39] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks FSCK U
[01:41:57] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks and the mobo you rode in on!
[01:42:19] <skunkworks> don't hate me because my latency is so low...
[01:42:39] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks Fine, I'll hate you for every other reason then! ;)
[01:42:56] <JymmmEMC> the grass is green, I hate skunkworks
[01:44:43] <skunkworks> don't hate me because my latency is so low...
[01:44:48] <skunkworks> heh
[01:44:54] <skunkworks> I mean ;)
[01:45:02] <skunkworks> damn up arrow
[01:45:13] <JymmmEMC> =)
[01:49:18] <skunkworksemc> now - do I reboot? maybe that will break something...
[02:37:33] <bglackin> Evening all - question on BASE_PERIOD I was reading Andy Ayre's blog on tuning steppers - http://www.britishideas.com/2008/04/29/configuring-emc2-for-three-axis-stepper-motor-control/
[02:37:56] <bglackin> In there he has a SLA7078 chip - I am using the same driver Chip.
[02:38:47] <bglackin> If my latency is 18,000ns, and the CHip requires 12,000ns, then is it correct to say I can use a base period of 32,000ns?
[02:38:57] <bglackin> err- 30,000ns
[02:40:25] <jepler> one way to look at latency is that a pulse can vary from the nominal length by +- latency. nominal pulse length = 1 base period = 32000ns; 32000ns - latency 18000ns = 12000ns actual pulse length
[02:41:31] <bglackin> Ok - So I could then use a base of 30,000 or a bit more if I wanted some room as an initial starting point for testing?
[02:42:00] <bglackin> Running my stepper until they stall and then recalculate the base?
[02:42:31] <jepler> you would change the maximum velocity or acceleration to fix stalls; the BASE_PERIOD can remain the same.
[02:43:03] <bglackin> Ok - I saw in his post that he would recalculate the base depending upon the speed attained at stall
[02:43:39] <jepler> what recalculating BASE_PERIOD does is free up a little more time for stuff like the GUI
[02:43:45] <bglackin> I take it that the base should depend on the latency test and the driver specs and call it good
[02:44:35] <bglackin> His was much worse latency (92,000ns) so then I assume that would make sense to do
[02:45:29] <bglackin> Thanks Jeff.
[02:46:08] <jepler> you're welcome
[02:47:07] <jepler> fwiw I downloaded an SLA7078 datasheet and I am not sure where Andy Ayre got a 12000ns time for step pulses
[02:47:55] <bglackin> I saw that number on it - there is a point where is talks about 7 to 12 ns depending upon the stepping level
[02:48:08] <jepler> my datasheet page 4 says "maximum response frequency" "fclk" "clock duty cycle=50%" "250kHz"
[02:48:40] <jepler> I would read that as saying you can drive it with a 250kHz square wave, making each half of the square wave only 2us big
[02:49:07] <jepler> if it turns out you're not maxing out your steppers at a 30000ns BASE_PERIOD, you might try going lower..
[02:49:16] <jepler> if not, no reason to tempt fate
[02:49:45] <jepler> yeah, I see the number you are referring to on the next page, but I'm not sure what it means
[02:49:57] <jepler> aren't datasheets great
[02:50:10] <bglackin> I saw that freq note as well - not literate enough to understand its application
[02:52:01] <bglackin> When I originally set it up - I thought the timing was related to the actual stepper response - took a whlie to realize you were all talking about the chip - I got there at least )
[02:53:47] <bglackin> as an FYI - that is the driver chip used on the HobbyCNC boards made by Dave Rigotti
[02:55:20] <jepler> hm, whoever assembled this table on our wiki also came up with the 2000ns figure I did, but I have no idea if he was able to test it, or just did it from datasheets. http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Stepper_Drive_Timing
[02:56:26] <bglackin> That seems quite fast
[02:57:22] <jepler> it doesn't mean the steppers will ever run that fast, of course
[02:57:33] <jepler> but they will probably stall that fast
[02:57:40] <bglackin> I am moving my router in from the cold and will be properly tuning everything this time - I will report my results
[02:57:58] <bglackin> Probably other tings on the baord which will slow things down
[02:58:17] <jepler> were you able to get the skew correction code set up?
[02:58:29] <jepler> (am I remembering the right person?)
[02:59:28] <bglackin> I have it all loaded up on this machine - Just haven't mmoved the box to the basement yet - once I get the router set back up (tomorrow eve hopefully) and tweak the steppers, I will try and run it.
[02:59:37] <bglackin> you recalled correctly
[02:59:54] <jepler> getting it to compile and install is the big hump
[03:00:02] <bglackin> Someone mentioned I will need a home switch to use that - is that correct?
[03:00:17] <bglackin> Thats already done
[03:00:55] <bglackin> for a simple skew correction, the setting home should be enough on open loop
[03:01:05] <jepler> no -- you'll probably want to "do" homing, but that's as simple as jogging to a spot you can see by eye and hitting HOME
[03:01:09] <jepler> no switch required
[03:01:27] <bglackin> I already do that )
[03:01:43] <bglackin> Then my manual home switch will work.
[03:06:45] <jepler> huh that's a surprise
[03:06:56] <jepler> * jepler is trying out millkins.comp in the simulator
[03:08:08] <jepler> jogging doesn't do quite what you might hope
[03:08:14] <jepler> MDI and program mode do, though
[03:10:11] <jepler> the jog keys jog the motors, not the axes -- so as you jog with the up arrow, motor #1 turns and both X and Y change on the DRO (because due to the correction a movement by only motor #1 actually is moving in both X and Y)
[03:10:36] <cradek> with $ you should be able to jog either joints or axes
[03:11:01] <jepler> cradek: millkins.comp lies and says it's KINEMATICS_IDENTITY, so you don't get to choose.
[03:11:09] <cradek> ohh
[03:11:18] <cradek> interesting
[03:11:39] <cradek> I never considered doing that.
[03:11:57] <cradek> so it still run kins both directions?
[03:12:18] <cradek> it=motion
[03:12:47] <SWPadnos> it should, since data still needs to be copied in both directions
[03:12:52] <SWPadnos> even for identity
[03:13:09] <jepler> it must be; axes are updated while jogging, and joints get updated in mdi
[03:13:23] <cradek> true enough
[03:13:41] <cradek> neat.
[03:15:01] <jepler> yes, if you change it to KINEMATICS_BOTH then you get $ to shift betwee joint and coord mode, and you can jog axes (but of course not incrementally
[03:15:04] <jepler> )
[03:21:28] <cradek> does it work right? I know teleop/rotaries are currently bogus
[03:39:07] <SWPadnos> how strange
[03:39:22] <SWPadnos> I just popped a starlite mint in my mouth, and it's not mint, it's cherry
[03:57:25] <JymmmEMC> that's what you get for popping strange named things in your mouth!
[04:05:09] <SWPadnos> well, I just hope it was intended to taste like cherr
[04:05:11] <SWPadnos> y
[04:05:22] <JymmmEMC> no doubt =)
[04:05:26] <JymmmEMC> or....
[04:05:39] <JymmmEMC> you just ate the MILLION DOLLAR mint =)
[04:07:22] <SWPadnos> it was more like dental cherry, so maybe it was the quarter million dollar "mint"
[04:17:27] <jepler> cradek: I didn't try rotaries at all
[04:37:45] <SWPadnos> does this look clearer to anyone? http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#On_Ubuntu_6_06_or_8_04_from_source
[04:38:02] <SWPadnos> (disregarding the fact that most here already know how to use CVS)
[05:04:10] <ds3> has anyone tapped Acrylic before?
[05:04:21] <SWPadnos> only by hand
[05:04:34] <ds3> did you succeed?
[05:04:39] <SWPadnos> yes
[05:04:50] <ds3> did the threads stay intact for more then 48hours?
[05:04:52] <SWPadnos> pipe thread, for liquid fittings
[05:05:09] <SWPadnos> well, I didn't leave things connected for long
[05:05:17] <SWPadnos> IIRC, it did seem brittle
[05:05:25] <ds3> that's what I am worried about
[05:05:31] <jst_home> ds3: I have, successfully, once
[05:05:49] <jst_home> ds3: for an acid bath, and it's still intact (been a few months)
[05:05:51] <ds3> acrylic is cheapbut I want to use screws... so it is either tapping it or pushing my luckand trying to install an insert
[05:06:05] <SWPadnos> you have to learn to tap acrylic for maximum watercooling bling
[05:06:10] <ds3> jst_home: cool... did you do anything special to prevent cracks?
[05:06:52] <jst_home> ds3: it was pretty gut wrenching... I remember I used a lot of oil. A LOT
[05:06:59] <ds3> what about trying to install a press in insert in acrylic?
[05:07:03] <jst_home> ds3: and these were taperd threads too
[05:07:23] <ds3> jst_home: Hmmm... would you do it again or would you try to design around it?
[05:08:02] <jst_home> ds3: with tapered threads... Not sure, if I did, I'd do it before finishing the rest of the part :)
[05:08:11] <ds3> oh hahaha
[05:08:19] <jst_home> ds3: non-tapered threads I think I'd feel a bit better about :)
[05:08:22] <ds3> and I suppose you'd also keep extra stock around? ;)
[05:08:31] <jst_home> ideally, yeah :)
[05:08:38] <ds3> Hmmmmm
[05:08:52] <ds3> anyone tried pressed in inserts in acrylic?
[05:10:02] <jst_home> anyone here know anything about low power wood burning lasers?
[05:10:13] <ds3> how low of a power?
[05:10:17] <SWPadnos> night night guys
[05:10:22] <ds3> night SWPadnos
[05:10:35] <SWPadnos> oh hey ds3, what's your class on again?
[05:10:48] <ds3> SWPadnos: got 2... which one?
[05:10:53] <SWPadnos> both :)
[05:10:55] <jst_home> ds3: < 5W, or whatever would be available for less than say $300 or so
[05:11:17] <ds3> SWPadnos: oh... heh... summary title is - resource constraint linux and the other is bluetooth basics
[05:11:20] <jst_home> but more than 150mW :)
[05:11:25] <SWPadnos> ok, thanks. night
[05:11:34] <ds3> oh... those DVD lasers do burn, just slow
[05:12:27] <jst_home> ds3: I've got one of those sitting right here, and very little luck with that so far.
[05:12:40] <jst_home> ds3: but it is entirely possible that I'm just not focusing it well enough
[05:12:51] <ds3> jst_home: paint it black with a sharpie and try again?
[05:13:11] <jst_home> ds3: the wood?
[05:13:15] <ds3> yeah
[05:13:30] <ds3> black stuff works for me
[05:13:44] <jst_home> oh, that's an idea... I'll give that a try!
[05:14:36] <jst_home> ds3: I really do need to by those goggles everyone recommends... :)
[05:15:16] <ds3> hahahaahahahhah
[05:15:23] <ds3> wonder why ;)
[05:15:37] <ds3> I been look for one under $25 and no luck :(
[05:16:01] <jst_home> ds3: yeah, seems silly to pay $50 or something for cheap plastic
[05:16:19] <jst_home> but then again, it'd be kinda lame to blind yourself too
[05:16:48] <jst_home> ds3: you have one of those in a cnc setup?
[05:16:54] <jst_home> a laser, that is
[05:16:58] <ds3> no, not yet
[05:17:04] <jst_home> ok
[05:17:18] <ds3> I stopped after getting headaches from playing with them
[05:17:31] <jst_home> ds3: literally?
[05:17:39] <ds3> been looking for a reasonable price google for over a year now
[05:17:44] <ds3> jst_home: yep...
[05:17:54] <jst_home> ouch, that's probably not good :)
[05:18:09] <ds3> *nod*
[05:18:13] <jst_home> I'm planning to do a rotary one here at some point, but there's quite a few steps left...
[05:18:21] <ds3> rotary?
[05:18:34] <jst_home> to "print" on dowels etc
[05:18:48] <ds3> oh rotary in thatsense... like a 4th axis
[05:19:24] <jst_home> yeah, only it'd probably start out being a rotary plus only one other axis
[05:19:44] <jst_home> i.e. rotate, and move back and fourth over the dowel
[05:20:10] <jst_home> and then see how that goes :)
[05:20:37] <ds3> I been meaning to finish my 4th axis so I could do that mechanically
[05:20:54] <jst_home> cool
[05:21:23] <jst_home> well, I've gotta go make some metal chips here for a bit, bbl
[05:21:32] <ds3> later
[10:01:47] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[11:45:40] <christel> [Global Notice] Hi all, I'm going to need to take down services (Nick,Chan,MemoServ etc) for a few moments to apply a tiny little fix. It shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes and I'll let you know when they're back up again. Apologies for the inconvenience and have a good day!
[11:49:58] <christel> [Global Notice] Hi all, as promised I return services to you, I'm all done and they're nearly as new! Have a good day and thank you for using freenode.
[12:53:13] <piasdom> how do i know if i'm useing the new gforce video card instead of the m/b ? ....http://pastebin.com/d4f8255c0
[12:53:55] <piasdom> it's an agp card and i have apg selected in the bios
[12:54:58] <piasdom> i'm still getting the realtime error after giving the controller card its' own power supply and a new video card
[12:55:49] <alex_joni> piasdom: obviously you connect the monitor to the other VGA output
[12:57:08] <piasdom> alex_joni: i have the monitor connected to the apg card .... nothing is obvious to me :)
[12:57:33] <alex_joni> if it's connected to the agp card, then I'd say the AGP card is working
[12:58:43] <piasdom> alex_joni: ok great..but why the continuous realtime error ?
[13:00:05] <alex_joni> did you check other causes?
[13:00:27] <alex_joni> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TroubleShooting#Unexpected_realtime_delay_check_dmesg_for_details
[13:02:00] <piasdom> i don't know any other causes...i just worked on the controller card and got off the m/b video...what else is there /
[13:04:26] <piasdom> this is my dmesg ... http://pastebin.com/db7a975e
[13:07:02] <alex_joni> piasdom: good, now pastebin the result from a latency test
[13:07:14] <piasdom> and i don't know all the effects latency...i'm a machinist and new to this computer control
[13:07:24] <alex_joni> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TroubleShooting#Unexpected_realtime_delay_check_dmesg_for_details
[13:07:34] <piasdom> ok...last time it ran around 60000
[13:07:52] <alex_joni> how long did you leave it running?
[13:09:38] <piasdom> a few hours
[13:10:02] <piasdom> but just started test and it's at 1800000
[13:10:25] <piasdom> 1895259
[13:10:47] <piasdom> i now that's can't be good :)
[13:10:54] <piasdom> *know
[13:11:48] <alex_joni> yup
[13:11:50] <alex_joni> not good
[13:12:04] <alex_joni> sounds worse like the onboard card
[13:12:17] <alex_joni> try rebooting without the AGP card, and see what happens
[13:12:41] <piasdom> change to pci in the bios ?
[13:12:51] <alex_joni> that setting is irrelevant
[13:12:59] <piasdom> ok
[13:13:03] <alex_joni> but probably PCI to be safe
[13:13:11] <archivist> could try disabling USB
[13:13:32] <piasdom> brb...hopefully :) ok..no usb
[13:14:18] <archivist> cant imagine why he consistently gets crap results
[13:14:26] <alex_joni> crappy hardware?
[13:14:37] <alex_joni> not generally crappy, just RT-crappy
[13:14:53] <archivist> 286 ?
[13:15:25] <archivist> he has been at this for some months now
[13:15:28] <alex_joni> nah, there are loads of celeron RT-crappy
[13:15:42] <alex_joni> archivist: what can I say...
[13:16:18] <archivist> make one want to send somebody round to see whats really there
[13:16:39] <alex_joni> it's a bit far from here
[13:16:47] <archivist> and here
[13:24:03] <piasdom> running latency-test
[13:28:25] <piasdom> if my latency results are around 25000..how much higher do i set the base ?...1000....10000....or a hundred million thousands ? :)
[13:49:26] <skunkworks_> sorry - no latency test results this morning...
[14:02:39] <jepler> Title: Genetic algorithm based optimization and post optimality analysis of multi-pass face milling http://arxiv.org/abs/0902.0763
[14:06:28] <alex_joni> piasdom: around 30000
[14:15:34] <piasdom> i don't have any results yet..was just wondering what to do with the results..so if it 28000, still set to 30000 or set to 33000 ?
[14:15:51] <alex_joni> piasdom: start with 30000, let emc2 run
[14:16:00] <alex_joni> if you get an error, increase it until it goes away
[14:16:05] <archivist> some headroom is sensible
[14:16:22] <alex_joni> once you have a value which doesn't cause problems, you can start messing about with speeds & accels
[14:16:30] <piasdom> cool, thanks alex_joni
[14:41:20] <piasdom> i left test running and closed all apt. except ksirc,test and opened adept...before opening adept results were 41000..after 1000000
[14:43:21] <piasdom> would a wireless mouse effect latency ?
[14:43:50] <cradek> it's usually video, especially if the latency jumps when you're opening/closing/moving windows
[14:52:08] <piasdom> so it could be nvidia ?
[15:47:50] <fenn> say.. i'm too lazy to read docs.. why does sim/axis want to home on startup and then says "cannot home while shared home switch is closed"?
[15:48:17] <cradek> home before you jog
[15:48:31] <SWPadnos> the simulated config has simulated switches, and the current machine position is "on" one or more of them
[15:48:32] <cradek> it's a symptom of trying to simulate too many things (it has home switches you can't see)
[15:58:02] <piasdom> hello again
[15:59:08] <piasdom> well, i disabled usb and used nv driver and i got 500000 within a minute
[15:59:47] <piasdom> had envyNg and removed that...still 500000
[16:00:27] <piasdom> rebooted a number of time and now it's 420000
[16:00:50] <alex_joni> piasdom: use visa driver
[16:01:07] <piasdom> i'll try that brb
[16:02:47] <BigJohnT> yea! my 5i20 and 7i31 arrived
[16:04:05] <jepler> ooh new toys
[16:04:14] <cradek> whee
[16:04:20] <cradek> what are you going to retrofit?
[16:04:53] <BigJohnT> I'm testing a THC using a custom board that Peter is making with the 5i20
[16:05:18] <piasdom> opened openoffice doc and it jumped to 200000 useing vesa driver
[16:05:42] <BigJohnT> I don't see any docs for the 7i31 on the mesa site :(
[16:06:03] <BigJohnT> any of you guys use it before? (the led card)
[16:06:14] <cradek> I used it once
[16:06:32] <BigJohnT> does it need power to the small plug?
[16:06:36] <cradek> you just plug it between the 5i2x and daughter card, and it tells you what's happening
[16:06:48] <cradek> no, I don't think I did anything with that plug
[16:06:59] <cradek> there is 5v available on the ribbon to power stuff
[16:07:02] <BigJohnT> ok cool
[16:07:12] <cradek> sometimes there is a jumper for internal/external power
[16:08:33] <SWPadnos> you don't have to supply external power
[16:09:07] <SWPadnos> be careful if yo decide to - don't use a floppy cable. the 12V line will be a surprise :)
[16:09:11] <SWPadnos> s/yo/you/
[16:09:26] <BigJohnT> yea it has a twist in it :)
[16:09:39] <cradek> I am not using those external power plugs on any of my setup
[16:09:41] <SWPadnos> you have twisted floppy *POWER* cables? :)
[16:10:10] <BigJohnT> oh I thought you were talking about the flat cable
[16:10:15] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:10:30] <SWPadnos> nope - the flat 4-pin power connectors fit, but are wrong
[16:10:49] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT searches for his "heh" key
[16:11:35] <cradek> SWPadnos: that was a mistake IMO
[16:11:41] <SWPadnos> I agree
[16:11:56] <SWPadnos> the connector should be compatible with a floppy power cable, but with 12V disconnected
[16:12:01] <SWPadnos> or it should be different
[16:12:10] <cradek> I agree
[16:12:18] <SWPadnos> (or heck, use 12V on some boards, with a regulator)
[16:12:26] <BigJohnT> thanks for the heads up SWPadnos
[16:12:31] <SWPadnos> sure
[16:12:52] <SWPadnos> that's one place where a couple of screw terminals would be very useful
[16:32:11] <jepler> SWPadnos: I assume, but don't know, that the "12V" pin would be a no-connect on the mesa boards. Doing otherwise is just asking for trouble
[16:32:22] <SWPadnos> it isn't
[16:32:29] <jepler> o rly
[16:32:43] <SWPadnos> really
[16:32:50] <jepler> I'll have to remember that before I naively hook one up
[16:32:53] <SWPadnos> the two center pins connect together, as do the two outer ones
[16:32:55] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:32:59] <jepler> ouch
[16:33:12] <SWPadnos> and they connect directly back to the 5ixx card too
[16:33:30] <SWPadnos> so the ground reference should be PC ground (of course, it's before the isolation)
[16:34:19] <jepler> so basically you would short the 12V and 5V rails of your PSU together
[16:34:29] <SWPadnos> yes
[16:34:43] <SWPadnos> and connect that to the 5/3.3V supply from the anyIO card
[16:35:00] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure which wire would vaporize first
[16:35:46] <jepler> let's try it!
[16:36:19] <cradek> I bet the PS would just not come up
[16:36:22] <SWPadnos> have fun!
[16:36:35] <SWPadnos> you'd have to power on first, then plug it in "live
[16:36:37] <SWPadnos> "
[16:36:53] <jepler> I'd be placing my bet on the (probably short) trace between the pins on the mesa daughterboard
[16:37:51] <jepler> then if you're really lucky, the blown trace leaves 5V disconnected at the daughtercard and 12V connected through the ribbon cable back to the PCI card
[16:38:08] <SWPadnos> yeah!
[16:38:15] <SWPadnos> which is set for 3.3V
[16:38:20] <SWPadnos> yeah!
[16:39:26] <eric_unterhause1> no wonder my mesa boards don't work
[16:39:37] <eric_unterhause1> I think I collected all the smoke
[16:39:57] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:40:32] <eric_unterhause1> I figure when technology advances a little more, we'll be able to get that smoke back in those chips
[16:40:39] <archivist> did jmk have the same problem considering his blog name :)
[16:40:56] <eric_unterhause1> like the people that have their bodies frozen after they die in hopes of being cured later
[16:41:10] <eric_unterhause1> what's his blog name?
[16:41:37] <eric_unterhause1> I'm sure he turns electronics into smoke as part of his job
[16:42:09] <archivist> magic smoke http://www.jmkasunich.com/cgi-bin/blosxom/photography
[16:42:38] <eric_unterhause1> I was supposed to have built a 3 phase drive that would let the smoke out of the power devices slowly
[16:42:53] <eric_unterhause1> haven't done it yet
[16:43:09] <archivist> there is no slow when the smoke wants to get out
[16:44:54] <fenn> halcmd loadusr hal_input -R 0 seems to work when moving the mouse to the bottom right, but dies when moving upper left (negative X or Y values), with this error:
[16:45:07] <fenn> TypeError: Integer expected, not long
[16:45:33] <archivist> I still remember the day I told a student to test the short circuit protection on an amplifier....it failed
[16:46:14] <fenn> in line 31 of hal_input i printed self._drive.items() and got ('0.rel-x-counts', 36L)
[16:46:29] <fenn> basically it adds an L on to the current value when you go negative
[16:47:01] <fenn> er.. when you move left
[16:47:14] <fenn> with the mouse
[16:47:22] <fenn> * fenn hates english sometimes
[16:48:24] <SWPadnos> fenn, TRUNK or 2.2.x?
[16:52:23] <fenn> TRUNK
[17:34:30] <SWPadnos> fenn, you forgot to put the actual error in the bug report
[17:34:39] <SWPadnos> I only see the reaceback
[17:34:42] <SWPadnos> traceback
[17:35:59] <fenn> i did?
[17:36:27] <fenn> gwah
[17:38:53] <jepler> TypeError: Integer expected, not long
[17:38:59] <jepler> this is the error, I assume
[17:39:07] <fenn> yeah
[17:39:14] <fenn> this broke it http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/src/hal/user_comps/hal_input.py.diff?r1=1.16;r2=1.17
[17:40:35] <fenn> "Patch from Brad McLean: Handle HIDs that give low-resolution signed values for relative axes. Allow suppression of duplicate events from devices that generate them unnecessarily."
[17:41:13] <SWPadnos> you could try setting the precision to something other than 32
[17:41:18] <SWPadnos> but I don't know if that will help
[17:41:36] <jepler> well, there's no reason for this not to work:
[17:41:37] <jepler> import hal; h = hal.component("test"); h.newpin("number", hal.HAL_S32, hal.HAL_OUT); h.number = 1L
[17:42:06] <SWPadnos> + sign = ev.value & ( 1 << (prec-1) )
[17:42:11] <SWPadnos> precision defaults to 32
[17:42:21] <SWPadnos> that may be one too many
[17:42:44] <SWPadnos> oh, -1, nevermind
[17:45:27] <cradek> huh, what a coincidence!
[17:45:56] <cradek> bradmc: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=106744&aid=2569072&group_id=6744
[17:46:02] <cradek> also, hi
[17:46:16] <jepler> fwiw I think halmodule should be changed so that 1L is acceptable
[17:46:22] <jepler> I'm about 50% done with that
[17:47:08] <bradmc> Hi, I'm just jetting by on a lunch break, but I'll take a quick look.
[17:47:11] <eric_unterhause1> you guys are awesome
[17:47:41] <alex_joni> eric_unterhause1: says who?
[17:47:42] <alex_joni> :P
[17:47:52] <eric_unterhause1> terre mader
[17:48:11] <alex_joni> jepler: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/02/05/recompute/
[17:48:22] <alex_joni> you should have patented the idea while you were ahead
[17:48:44] <eric_unterhause1> what's so green about cardboard?
[17:48:57] <alex_joni> it's usually made from recycled paper
[17:49:09] <fenn> alex_joni: http://www.core77.com/greenergadgets/entry.php?projectid=35
[17:49:14] <eric_unterhause1> recycling it is pretty nasty from my understanding
[17:49:22] <fenn> i dont get why they have the usb ports sticking out at a nice snap-me-off angle
[17:49:51] <jepler> alex_joni: did I have this idea? it's such a stupid one, I'd rather I hadn't.
[17:50:20] <eric_unterhause1> one of the grad students had an external usb hard drive case in a cardboard box
[17:50:29] <fenn> yea it's way more environmentally friendly to just have the motherboards lying on the desk in a pile
[17:50:41] <alex_joni> jepler: you had a thingie in a cardboard box with a red light ontop ;)
[17:50:50] <eric_unterhause1> bolted to the side of the desk like one of the founders of Sun did
[17:51:18] <eric_unterhause1> I recycle computer cases fairly frequently
[17:51:25] <eric_unterhause1> too bad they keep changing standards
[17:51:41] <cradek> I just put the new computer in the case I already have
[17:51:52] <cradek> I don't remember the last case I bought new
[17:51:59] <jepler> alex_joni: oh, that -- it filled me with shame
[17:52:08] <eric_unterhause1> I just bought some new ones
[17:52:08] <cradek> (or the last computer I bought new for that matter)
[17:52:27] <cradek> I think it was a dual pentium 166
[17:52:34] <archivist> I got an HP one new because it was so cheap
[17:53:20] <eric_unterhause1> I usually buy new mobo, memory hd for my main desktop
[17:53:27] <eric_unterhause1> all other comps are recycled
[17:53:31] <archivist> dual core athlon £115 ish needed a bit more ram though
[17:53:41] <eric_unterhause1> nice
[17:57:38] <alex_joni> http://isc.sans.org/diary.html?storyid=5797
[17:59:11] <bradmc> Okay, here's the story, I think (I'm not at home, this is a quick code read). The last line of my patch, 162, is:
[17:59:13] <bradmc> self.set(code + "-counts", self.get(code + "-counts") + value)
[18:00:14] <bradmc> Once things go negative, some of the code above can cause the 'value' variable to become long. It appears that self.set() is not restricting it's value to S32, but is accepting that long.
[18:00:28] <bradmc> A fix would be self.set(int( ... ))
[18:00:41] <bradmc> But I can't test right now, or this evening, unfortunately.
[18:01:51] <fenn> self.set(int(code + "-counts", self.get(code + "-counts") + value))
[18:01:55] <fenn> ValueError: int() base must be >= 2 and <= 36
[18:02:32] <fenn> hmm
[18:02:43] <fenn> duh
[18:03:28] <fenn> ok that appears to work when i put the set in the right place
[18:03:36] <fenn> self.set(code + "-counts", int(self.get(code + "-counts") + value))
[18:04:45] <SWPadnos> incidentally, this doesn't fix the Contour jog/shuttle problem
[18:05:01] <fenn> ah no, it doesn't do the right thing after all
[18:05:04] <bradmc> "It works on my machine" :)
[18:05:14] <fenn> now i only get movement to lower right
[18:05:17] <bradmc> What are you seeing with your Contour?
[18:06:00] <bradmc> fenn: I'll have to dig deeper then, next break I get. I'm on the road on a consulting gig at the moment.
[18:06:04] <SWPadnos> bradmc, yeah - the jog/shuttle (non-Pro) reports both the jog wheel and shuttle "disc" as relative axes, but they're not
[18:06:24] <SWPadnos> so when either gets to a zero position, there's no report (since relative 0 = nothing useful)
[18:07:10] <SWPadnos> I think there's a quirk that can be set in the kernel inupt code, but I haven't gotten that to work yet
[18:07:43] <bradmc> Did you set -absolute to True in the HAL?
[18:08:43] <fenn> x/y relative motion works OK but wheel-counts only goes more positive
[18:08:43] <SWPadnos> yes
[18:08:59] <SWPadnos> there's no report when it reaches zero
[18:09:19] <bradmc> Okay. I'll chew on that. Gotta run. Thanks both.
[18:09:20] <SWPadnos> so it almost works, but it goes from +1 to -1 or the opposite
[18:09:24] <SWPadnos> ok, see you
[18:12:02] <jepler> I fixed up the hal module to accept python longs for s32 pins as long as they're in s32 range, but I don't know whether that'll make hal_input work as desired, or just stop it throwing python exceptions.
[18:12:06] <jepler> bbl
[19:16:36] <toastatwork> i just had the strangest rounding error on a conversational control
[19:16:46] <toastatwork> the machine apparently rounds down, universally
[19:17:02] <toastatwork> so there was a .0001 difference between an arc and a line it lead into
[19:17:20] <toastatwork> so instead of cutting the line, it decides it was going to rapid across it
[19:17:34] <toastatwork> this machine requires user input to start any and all rapid moves
[19:17:36] <toastatwork> not this one
[19:17:38] <jepler> ouch, rapid instead of feed is bad news
[19:17:40] <toastatwork> strangest thing ever
[19:17:50] <toastatwork> and the feed rate for the line was 4 ipm
[19:17:55] <toastatwork> i have NO idea how it decides to go to full rapid
[19:18:23] <toastatwork> but i changed the direction of my rounding, and now it's running peachy
[19:21:23] <toastatwork> but i just don't understand how it did what it did - if you enter a disconnected line, it pauses and tells you it has to rapid to the start of the new line
[19:21:35] <toastatwork> this thought it was connected, because using regular rounding logic, it was
[19:21:49] <toastatwork> strangest thing i've seen so far
[19:22:19] <toastatwork> aside from the horizontal mill we have whose Z axis decided to take off at 800 ipm straight forward while it was just sitting there one day
[19:22:55] <jepler> bring a spare pair of underwear!
[19:23:28] <toastatwork> several
[19:23:36] <toastatwork> and don't put your hand in front of that axis without the e stop on
[20:26:11] <toastatwork> also, since you guys have pretty varied interests, does anyone know how big a hybrid rocket (of any variety of your choosing) would have to be to provide 20K lbs of thrust for three seconds?
[20:28:05] <SWPadnos> something big enough to hold enough fuel for 60k lb-sec impulse
[20:28:08] <SWPadnos> :)
[20:29:44] <toastatwork> right!
[20:29:59] <toastatwork> but how big is that, in diameter/length/weight etc
[20:30:52] <toastatwork> i am scouring wikipedia but no avail
[20:31:08] <alex_joni> I'd guess 1-2m diameter, probably 5m long
[20:31:24] <alex_joni> maybe smaller if it's only 3 second
[20:32:44] <alex_joni> hmm.. thrust-to-weight ration is 4.0 up to 136.66
[20:34:12] <alex_joni> the NK-33 provides 339k lbf average thrust
[20:34:28] <alex_joni> and weighs about 2700 lbs
[20:34:37] <alex_joni> so maybe scale that by 10
[20:34:59] <alex_joni> 300-400 lbs the engine + fuel
[20:35:10] <toastatwork> that is awesome
[20:35:38] <alex_joni> but remember that the NK-33 has the best thrust/weight ration in the world :D
[20:35:46] <alex_joni> uses oxygen rich fuel
[20:36:05] <toastatwork> lol
[20:36:06] <alex_joni> * alex_joni reads wikipedia for 2 minutes and starts to talk about rockets like he knows anything
[20:36:12] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:36:19] <SWPadnos> section: Energy Efficiency
[20:36:39] <alex_joni> "Oxygen-rich engines were never successfully built in America. The Russians however perfected the metallurgy behind this trick"
[20:39:15] <toastatwork> i am getting around 10 cubic feet of fuel that has an impuls of 440 lb-s per liter
[20:39:21] <toastatwork> *impulse
[20:39:30] <toastatwork> to get a 60k lb-s impulse
[20:40:37] <toastatwork> and that is a very conservative number if i am reading the charts for impulse for various fuels right
[20:43:35] <toastatwork> all this leads me to believe that it is feasable to run a 3 second quarter mile in a 2000 lb car using a rocket
[20:43:43] <toastatwork> not that anyone would, just wanted to see if it was feasable
[20:51:26] <alex_joni> good night all
[20:51:46] <toastatwork> night
[21:23:09] <fenn> hmm.. 10 cubic feet in 3 seconds..
[21:24:07] <fenn> 25gal/sec
[21:25:00] <fenn> the rocket-turbine (turbonique) only managed 7.3sec
[21:25:53] <toastatwork> hybrid rocket
[21:26:00] <toastatwork> 10 cubic feet of solid rocket propellant
[21:26:11] <fenn> and how much liquid?
[21:26:19] <toastatwork> and i figure in order to get that high a number, it's probably not feasable to use just one rocket
[21:26:42] <toastatwork> no idea, i haven't picked a specific fuel/ox combo
[21:26:53] <fenn> if you're strapping a rocket to some thing with wheels, perhaps you could get rid of the engine
[21:27:05] <fenn> and reduce the amount of mass you have to push
[21:27:08] <toastatwork> this would be a missile with wheels
[21:27:11] <toastatwork> and a seat
[21:27:20] <toastatwork> no engine, drivetrain, etc
[21:27:32] <fenn> so the 2000lb requirement kinda goes away
[21:27:43] <toastatwork> well that's my conservative, "is this possible" guess
[21:28:20] <fenn> yes it's possible, the question is how many G's you can handle
[21:28:28] <toastatwork> i calculated 9g's
[21:28:31] <toastatwork> for a 3 second run
[21:28:40] <fenn> put a nuclear bomb in a well and it'll shoot the wellhead into orbit
[21:28:59] <fenn> er.. escape trajectory
[21:29:07] <toastatwork> 600 mph @ 3 seconds is the trap speed
[21:29:12] <toastatwork> 9g's to get there
[21:29:51] <fenn> no thanks
[21:30:09] <toastatwork> and then probably 4-5g's on the way back down
[21:32:34] <toastatwork> there might be a way to design the fuel casting to have enough internal surface area to get a 1/3rd volume burn per second
[21:32:50] <toastatwork> that would be easier than trying to synch and throttle 2-3 engines
[21:32:54] <toastatwork> (maybe?)
[21:33:21] <fenn> in large solid rockets they cast the fuel grain in a lobed shape, rather like an internal spline
[21:33:30] <toastatwork> oh hot, that's what i was thinking of
[21:33:42] <fenn> so as it burns the surface area decreases (giving constant thrust with declining mass)
[21:34:31] <toastatwork> so maybe one rocket is still theoretically doable
[21:34:44] <toastatwork> a long, thin motor with a lobe/spline cross section
[21:37:17] <toastatwork> not that this will ever happen but it's fun to design this kind of thing
[21:37:24] <fenn> find the burn rate, divide by 3 seconds to find the thickness
[21:37:38] <toastatwork> hmm
[21:37:44] <toastatwork> that will require picking a fuel combo
[21:38:49] <toastatwork> and that will also reduce the amount of fuel required because i picked a low impulse, most fuels have higher than what i used
[21:40:11] <fenn> well gasoline/nitrous should be straightforward to find
[21:40:30] <fenn> er.. you said hybrid so what's that, polyethylene or something?
[21:40:32] <toastatwork> i was hoping to use a solid/liquid instead of liquid/liquid
[21:40:39] <toastatwork> hybrid is solid/liquid
[21:40:49] <fenn> yeah but what's the solid
[21:41:00] <toastatwork> anything you want, which is the problem
[21:41:14] <fenn> i think they use polybutyl rubber usually
[21:41:15] <toastatwork> i am having a hard time finding information on hybrid fuel combos
[21:41:27] <toastatwork> rubbers are the most commonly listed, with nitrous
[21:41:37] <fenn> but you can use a salami
[21:41:45] <toastatwork> ...the lunch meat?
[21:42:30] <toastatwork> i don't think i'd be able to lift my arms much less eat a sandwich in this thing
[21:42:41] <fenn> http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2006/04/episode_51_myths_reopened.html
[21:43:01] <fenn> "This may look like a salami, it may smell like a salami, it may even taste like a salami, but it's rocket fuel."
[21:43:20] <toastatwork> aaahahaha
[21:43:23] <toastatwork> that is incredible
[21:46:18] <fenn> there isnt very much "real" rocketry data because of ITAR
[21:46:27] <fenn> *available
[21:46:27] <toastatwork> ITAR?
[21:47:02] <fenn> international traffic in arms regulations treaty
[21:47:09] <toastatwork> ohhh
[21:47:17] <toastatwork> well maybe some testbed rockets would get what i needed
[21:47:43] <toastatwork> haha now i'm talking like it would happen
[21:47:44] <toastatwork> great
[21:47:55] <alex_joni> toastatwork: what are you trying to do?
[21:48:00] <fenn> blow himself up
[21:48:04] <toastatwork> ^^^^
[21:48:08] <toastatwork> this man speaks truth
[21:48:09] <alex_joni> I figured that already
[21:48:16] <alex_joni> but I thought you might have a point to it
[21:48:24] <toastatwork> i wanted to see what rocket design would take you down a quarter mile in 3 seconds
[21:48:43] <alex_joni> an F16 might
[21:49:10] <toastatwork> 20k lbs of thrust for 3 seconds is what i calculated
[21:49:14] <toastatwork> so whatever has that, it should do it
[21:49:18] <toastatwork> oh wait, i didn't factor in drag
[21:49:20] <toastatwork> damnit
[21:50:00] <toastatwork> oh well, i'll look that up in class tonight
[21:50:11] <toastatwork> ty all who helped look stuff up
[21:54:29] <fenn> F16 doesn't have that much thrust.. that's why they have a giant steam catapult
[22:40:37] <fenn> anyone know how to rotate two angles at once in opengl?
[22:40:55] <mshaver> can anyone tell me how to add a page to the wiki? I've done the "Basic Steps" and have edit links at the bottom of the pages, but I don't see an "add page" button or link.
[22:41:11] <cradek> mshaver: just edit the URL to say the page you want
[22:41:20] <fenn> to add a new page make a [[link]] and click on it
[22:41:28] <cradek> yeah, or that
[22:41:30] <mshaver> THANKS!
[22:41:50] <cradek> when you go to a nonexistent page, it shows an empty page and lets you add stuff
[22:42:08] <cradek> actually, that's pretty obscure, isn't it
[22:42:47] <cradek> fenn: not at once, but they add, so you can just glRotate twice with different vectors
[22:43:11] <fenn> i have azimuth and elevation, or a and b like in g-code
[22:43:22] <SWPadnos> sort of, but since the primary way of getting to a page is via a link, it makes sense that you put the directions to the page into the wiki before you put the actual page in there
[22:43:30] <cradek> that's just two glRotates isn't it?
[22:43:36] <fenn> but when i do glRotatef they apply at the same time instead of adding
[22:44:08] <cradek> try putting them in the other order
[22:44:42] <fenn> did that
[22:45:00] <fenn> i've been stuck on this problem for quite a while, it's why i wrote the tracking-test.hal
[22:45:33] <cradek> what vectors are you using?
[22:46:03] <fenn> glRotatef(az,0,0,1) and glRotatef(el,1,0,0)
[22:46:21] <fenn> or glRotatef(a,1,0,0) glRotatef(b,0,1,0)
[22:46:54] <cradek> someone's code on the web has el,1,0,0 then az,0,1,0
[22:47:17] <fenn> i dont think it matters?
[22:47:29] <cradek> the order sure does
[23:02:11] <fenn> sigh.. coding by exhausting all permutations
[23:02:21] <cradek> does that mean you got it?
[23:02:23] <fenn> no
[23:02:29] <cradek> oh, dang
[23:02:30] <fenn> i havent yet gotten sufficiently systematic :)
[23:02:35] <cradek> ha
[23:02:53] <cradek> by exhausting some permutations randomly?
[23:06:55] <fenn> if you want to try your hand... http://fennetic.net/pub/irc/vismach.py
[23:07:36] <cradek> sorry, I'm working on ... anything else at the moment
[23:07:36] <fenn> and then figure out what /dev/input/event your mouse is on and put that in tracking-test.hal
[23:07:41] <fenn> heh ok
[23:49:29] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: cat /dev/random > curl http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/$1 =)