#emc | Logs for 2009-01-28

[00:59:56] <eric_unterhausen> googleisyourfriend.com
[01:05:56] <PCW> I also think we should goo-gleisy our friend
[01:06:14] <eric_unterhausen> you would
[01:10:17] <PCW> Did you see my post about multiphase PWM, I'm planning to add such a module to HM2
[01:10:37] <eric_unterhausen> no, I didn't, on here?
[01:10:51] <PCW> I think I just missed you
[01:10:55] <eric_unterhausen> ok
[01:11:18] <PCW> Do you need deadtime between PWM and /PWM?
[01:12:10] <eric_unterhausen> would be nice, but not absolutely required
[01:12:59] <PCW> Also how do you drive a 4 phase motor? 4 1/2 bridges?
[01:13:05] <eric_unterhausen> yeah
[01:13:20] <eric_unterhausen> pain in my behind
[01:18:42] <PCW> Well its a pain for my multiphase PWMgen as well because I was planning to have 3x10 bit PWMgens in
[01:18:43] <PCW> one 32 bit register so they get updated atomically
[01:22:12] <jmkasunich> three, three!
[01:22:18] <PCW> But I suppose if you dont mind the write overhead, it could be identical to the existing PWM gen
[01:22:19] <PCW> but with logic so that the update is only done when the last of (2,3,4) PWM gens is updated
[01:24:28] <PCW> I guess those odd-balls with 4 phase motors could do with 2x 3 phase PWM gens
[01:25:34] <eric_unterhausen> could do that
[01:26:57] <eric_unterhausen> I just thought of this today
[01:27:00] <PCW> Eric: are you planning current control or just voltage mode with current limit?
[01:27:53] <eric_unterhausen> I'm thinking current control
[01:28:23] <PCW> OK, how will you read the currents?
[01:28:37] <eric_unterhausen> although the only feedback is halls
[01:29:04] <eric_unterhausen> that's a good question, maybe I should look into limits
[01:29:12] <PCW> position feedback or current feedback?
[01:29:22] <eric_unterhausen> position
[01:30:11] <PCW> Is this a spindle or servo?
[01:30:15] <eric_unterhausen> spindle
[01:31:38] <eric_unterhausen> the lack of a/d is a problem
[01:32:24] <PCW> How is the motor wired (never seen a 4 phase PMSM)
[01:32:42] <jmk-robot> 2 H-bridges?
[01:32:55] <eric_unterhausen> wye?
[01:33:04] <jmk-robot> wye has three legs, not four
[01:33:12] <jmk-robot> X maybe ;-)
[01:33:13] <PCW> wye knot?
[01:33:16] <eric_unterhausen> X
[01:33:21] <eric_unterhausen> ex
[01:33:37] <jmk-robot> that's surprising
[01:33:46] <jmk-robot> I'd suspect two independent phases
[01:33:50] <eric_unterhausen> pretty sure that's right
[01:34:03] <eric_unterhausen> there are 4 wires
[01:34:17] <PCW> OhmMeter\1
[01:34:18] <jmk-robot> two independent windings would have 4 wires
[01:34:31] <eric_unterhausen> I did the back emf to verify that there really were 4 phases
[01:34:53] <jmk-robot> 4 wires can be 4 windings in an X, two independent windings, or three and a ground (or wye point)
[01:34:55] <eric_unterhausen> was not happy when I realized there was
[01:35:16] <jmk-robot> so all four are connected to each other (according to ohmmeter)?
[01:35:36] <eric_unterhausen> yeah, and there are 4 sine waves generated when you spin it
[01:35:49] <jmk-robot> 0, 90, 180, and 270 degrees?
[01:36:13] <jmk-robot> hmm, measured with respect to what
[01:36:21] <eric_unterhausen> each other
[01:36:31] <jmk-robot> three sine waves measured with the 4th wire grounded
[01:36:35] <jmk-robot> how do you get 4?
[01:36:46] <eric_unterhausen> you can also just ignore ground
[01:37:25] <eric_unterhausen> if you are hoping to prove that there are 3 phases and 4 wires, you don't want to have one grounded
[01:37:46] <eric_unterhausen> if you know that there are 3 phases and just want to know the voltages, that works
[01:38:53] <jmk-robot> I was just wondering how you made the measurements
[01:39:08] <eric_unterhausen> dSpace and a hand drill
[01:39:30] <jmk-robot> scope ground hooked to the (inaccessible) X point, and four channels looking at the four leads wrt the ground, would give four nice sines at 90 deg increments
[01:39:54] <jmk-robot> but with one grounded and scope (or dspace) looking at the other three, the phase relationships would be more complex
[01:41:20] <eric_unterhausen> we do back emf testing on the 3 phase motors, you really can ignore ground without any problem, just hook up all three leads and spin it. The voltages will vary around ground.
[01:41:48] <PCW> Did you measure the amplitudes? With 4 phase you should get V or V*sqrt(2)
[01:41:49] <jmk-robot> so you hook scope leads (or dspace probes) to the winding terminals and use no ground at all?
[01:41:50] <PCW> depending on which pair you read (I think)
[01:42:26] <eric_unterhausen> PCW: i did measure the amplitudes and I would have to look at the files
[01:42:32] <jmk-robot> PCW: that sounds right
[01:42:45] <eric_unterhausen> jmk-robot: don't forget I'm a mechanical engineer :)
[01:42:55] <jmk-robot> adjacent terminals would have 70% voltage, terminals across from each other would have 100%
[01:44:27] <eric_unterhausen> since I'm taking all 4 voltages at once, the lack of ground has no effect, I can ground to an arbitrary point for noise purposes
[01:44:48] <jmk-robot> you are a mech E
[01:45:02] <jmk-robot> there is no such thing as "a voltage"
[01:45:08] <jmk-robot> there is only the voltage between two points
[01:45:25] <eric_unterhausen> generally accepted shorthand
[01:45:44] <jmk-robot> generally accepted because the implied 2nd point is ground
[01:45:52] <jmk-robot> but you just said you can ground any point
[01:46:07] <jmk-robot> call the motor terminals A, B, C, D
[01:46:10] <eric_unterhausen> but if you are measuring the voltage across 4 connected coils, you don't need an absolute ground
[01:46:25] <jmk-robot> you are measuring A with respect to ground, B with respect to ground, etc
[01:46:34] <eric_unterhausen> right
[01:46:40] <eric_unterhausen> the dspace is ground referenced
[01:46:57] <jmk-robot> then you are NOT measuring the voltage across 4 connected coils
[01:47:34] <jmk-robot> because the far end of each coil is inaccessible
[01:47:42] <jmk-robot> the X point is buried down inside the motor
[01:48:20] <jmk-robot> the voltage across the first coil is A-X, 2nd coil B-X, etc, where X is the point you can't access
[01:48:34] <jmk-robot> you are measuring A-G, B-G, C-G, etc, where G is ground
[01:48:41] <jmk-robot> X != G
[01:49:55] <jmk-robot> if you make differential measurements (either in analog, or by subtracting afterwards), you can do (A-G)-(B-G) = A-B, and get the line-to-line voltages
[01:50:25] <jmk-robot> there are 6 of those - A-B, B-C, C-D, D-A, A-C, and B-D
[01:52:06] <eric_unterhausen> there is no reason to expose the virtual ground though
[01:52:14] <eric_unterhausen> and it wouldn't give me 4 out of phase sine waves
[01:52:37] <jmk-robot> I'm just trying to understand what you measured
[01:54:47] <eric_unterhausen> my experience with 3 phase PM synchronous machines says that I can ground one phase lead and measure the voltages from the other two, or measure the floating voltage from all three and get the same answer
[01:55:16] <jmk-robot> when you say "measure", do you mean with a meter, or with a scope?
[01:55:21] <eric_unterhausen> dspace
[01:55:31] <jmk-robot> do you mean with a meter, or with a scope? ;-)
[01:55:43] <eric_unterhausen> it's an a/d
[01:55:57] <jmk-robot> and you display it as a plot vs. time?
[01:56:01] <jmk-robot> then its a scope
[01:56:15] <jmk-robot> if you calc the rms or mean and display a number, then its a meter
[01:56:16] <eric_unterhausen> if you insist
[01:56:30] <eric_unterhausen> I like to call that a time series
[01:56:39] <jmk-robot> scope then ;-)
[01:57:05] <jmk-robot> you're really hurting my head with this floating stuff though
[01:57:05] <eric_unterhausen> yeah, meters aren't very satisfying
[01:57:25] <jmk-robot> lets talk about the 3 phase case
[01:57:25] <eric_unterhausen> I know floating is bad
[01:57:40] <jmk-robot> if you ground A, then you can measure B and C wrt ground (also wrt A)
[01:57:47] <eric_unterhausen> right
[01:57:48] <jmk-robot> that is two measurements, two time series
[01:57:52] <eric_unterhausen> correct
[01:58:04] <jmk-robot> if you do a "floating measurement", how many series do you wind up with?
[01:58:08] <eric_unterhausen> 3
[01:58:16] <jmk-robot> ok, what are they?
[01:58:51] <jmk-robot> in the first case, we had B wrt A, and C wrt A
[01:58:51] <eric_unterhausen> you'd have to know what the preamp was like in the dspace
[01:59:05] <jmk-robot> is it a differential input?
[01:59:08] <eric_unterhausen> no
[02:00:09] <jmk-robot> a couple mins ago, you said that you can gnd one and measure the other two, or do a floating measure on all three, and "get the same answer"
[02:00:44] <SWPLinux> heh - it kind of depends on the excitation now, doesn't it?
[02:00:49] <eric_unterhausen> phase to phase voltage
[02:00:53] <jmk-robot> if the first case gives 2 time series, and the second gives 3 time series, in what strange world are those the same
[02:01:24] <eric_unterhausen> I meant with a suitable transformation
[02:01:55] <jmk-robot> oy
[02:02:15] <SWPLinux> you can only do the transformation because you know the coil configuration
[02:02:20] <SWPLinux> otherwise that's an unknown
[02:02:20] <eric_unterhausen> so?
[02:02:30] <jmk-robot> sure - if you take the B series (B wrt ground) and subtract the A series (A wrt ground), you will get the A wrt B series
[02:02:54] <SWPLinux> 4-phase sounds like a strange motor, which is why I'd be questioning you on your measurements
[02:03:08] <SWPLinux> I've only heard of steppers being 4 phase, but that's just me
[02:03:18] <eric_unterhausen> let me assure you, I was quite disappointed
[02:03:25] <SWPLinux> heh
[02:03:31] <eric_unterhausen> there are 4 and 5 phase that are common
[02:04:02] <eric_unterhausen> I think if you let the common point float, it doesn't float at the same frequency
[02:04:13] <SWPLinux> google seems to only know about 2-phase AC or 4-phase steppers
[02:04:23] <jmk-robot> SWPadnos: there are 5 phase steppers
[02:04:26] <eric_unterhausen> googleisyourfriend.com
[02:04:27] <jmk-robot> rare these days
[02:04:35] <SWPLinux> sure, I searched for 4 phase ac motor
[02:04:40] <SWPLinux> I know about 5 phase also
[02:04:53] <jmk-robot> 4 and 5 phase AC would be rare
[02:04:56] <eric_unterhausen> 4 phase brushless
[02:04:59] <SWPLinux> actually, Vexta still makes a large line of them, and they're fairly common in China
[02:05:08] <SWPLinux> (steppers)
[02:05:16] <eric_unterhausen> there is some company that is going to save the world with 36 phase brushless
[02:05:19] <jmk-robot> yeah, rare is relative
[02:05:43] <eric_unterhausen> the more phases you have, the faster you can go
[02:05:43] <SWPLinux> chorusmotors, 17-phase
[02:06:03] <SWPLinux> plus harmonics :)
[02:06:28] <eric_unterhausen> once you get over 3 phases, yer a pervert as far as I'm concerned
[02:06:45] <eric_unterhausen> but otoh, these are some really nice spindles
[02:07:27] <eric_unterhausen> the first heartbreak was when the resistance between the 4 leads was identical
[02:07:46] <PCW> How many HP?
[02:07:56] <eric_unterhausen> they are dremel sized
[02:08:07] <eric_unterhausen> for pcb routing/engraving
[02:08:14] <PCW> OK tiny
[02:08:29] <PCW> Max speed?
[02:08:37] <eric_unterhausen> no data
[02:08:53] <PCW> Ball Bearing?
[02:08:56] <SWPLinux> zero, without appropriate drivers
[02:08:57] <eric_unterhausen> yes
[02:09:08] <SWPLinux> http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5043641/description.html
[02:09:15] <eric_unterhausen> I am going to start with the dspace
[02:09:21] <PCW> Voltage/RPM
[02:09:25] <PCW> ?
[02:09:42] <eric_unterhausen> I don't think I have my data files here
[02:11:48] <PCW> Manufacturer?
[02:12:00] <eric_unterhausen> they were afraid to put their name on it
[02:14:44] <PCW> That patent only has 4 switches
[02:15:02] <eric_unterhausen> believe it or not, I did build a 3 phase pm drive from scratch
[02:15:41] <eric_unterhausen> yeah, I looked at that patent when I figured out I had a 4 phase motor, I wasn't too impressed
[02:19:55] <PCW> Well it must be pretty low current, a couple of small IGBT modules could drive it,
[02:19:56] <PCW> but it looks like "A Project" ...
[02:21:46] <eric_unterhausen> looks like it
[02:22:48] <eric_unterhausen> I need to go understand how trapazoidal 3 phase controls work a little better
[02:22:53] <PCW> If its just a high speed routing spindle why not just commutate it with its
[02:22:56] <PCW> Hall signals and treat it like a BLDC?
[02:22:57] <eric_unterhausen> it's a minor extension
[02:23:37] <eric_unterhausen> I'm sure that's what the original drive did
[02:24:07] <eric_unterhausen> do you have a reference for that?
[02:24:08] <PCW> Torque ripple isn't going to be a problem at 50K RPM
[02:25:08] <PCW> No But you could experiment pretty easy with some 12V or so low power 1/2 bridges
[02:28:13] <jmk-robot> hello ehj
[02:28:24] <PCW> Bye all
[02:28:30] <ehj> yes
[02:28:31] <jmk-robot> bye peter
[02:28:44] <jmk-robot> I'm talking at you from my Atom board
[02:28:55] <jmk-robot> but I haven't gotten around to reproducing your steps
[02:29:01] <ehj> k, how is it working?
[02:29:03] <jmk-robot> and unfortunately probably won't for a while
[02:29:16] <ehj> k, np
[02:29:17] <jmk-robot> so far, not bad
[02:29:26] <jmk-robot> its been a long and winding road
[02:29:32] <jmk-robot> I started the install sunday evening
[02:30:19] <jmk-robot> detours for everything from making up a cable for that 4-pin 12V connector, to stealing a CD drive from another puter, to finding out that I couldn't burn a CD anyway cause my media is ancient
[02:30:37] <jmk-robot> then attempted USB boot, but the 1G usb stick is dead
[02:30:44] <ehj> yea, been there done that. I must have done 20-30 installs playing with that problem.
[02:31:06] <jmk-robot> put a netboot installer on a 128M usb stick, but had problems fetching packages from the net
[02:31:28] <jmk-robot> finally put the iso on my local webserver and had the installer fetch from there
[02:31:43] <jmk-robot> still have grub/mbr issues - won't boot unless I have the USB stick in
[02:31:57] <ehj> I seem to recall telling you about getting the adapter for the 4 wire 12 V cable. :)
[02:32:04] <jmk-robot> yeah
[02:32:14] <ehj> I think it was $2 to $3.
[02:32:16] <jmk-robot> the 6-24V power supply I intend to use on the robot has that
[02:32:29] <ehj> k
[02:32:33] <jmk-robot> the older ATX supply I'm using now doesn't (and I haven't gotten the other supply yet)
[02:33:03] <ehj> I got the 12-32V PS. It did not have the adapter so it was good I ordered it.
[02:33:19] <jmk-robot> anyway, I just installed the experimental SMP RT kernel
[02:33:29] <ehj> k
[02:34:02] <ehj> good luck
[02:34:07] <jmk-robot> I think I'm gonna ignore the MBR problem for the moment, see how the SMP kernel does
[02:35:52] <eric_unterhausen> ehj, where did you get your ps?
[02:36:56] <ehj> Just a sec, I intended to order it from mini-box, but they did not have the 4 wire adapter, so I ordered from someone else. Give me a sec and I will look it up.
[02:38:26] <ehj> Here: http://www.short-circuit.com/
[02:38:34] <eric_unterhausen> thanks
[02:38:52] <eric_unterhausen> looks like JMK bought the last atom from newegg, they don't have a listing for the one he bought
[02:39:23] <ehj> The dual core atom at mini-box were listed as out of stock last I checked too.
[02:41:33] <ehj> Looks like they are back in stock at mini-box, see: http://www.mini-box.com/Intel-D945GCLF2-Mini-ITX-Motherboard?sc=8&category=100
[02:42:46] <jmkasunich> seemed like everybody and his brother had the atom when I was looking
[02:43:20] <eric_unterhausen> everybody decided to build an htpc
[02:43:37] <eric_unterhausen> or a robot
[02:43:46] <ehj> When I was looking it up to post the information on the boards on the wiki, I noticed that it was out of stock at mini-box.
[02:45:07] <eric_unterhausen> I like the picopsu, they have an AVR running them
[02:49:09] <eric_unterhausen> looks like the Goal went back down in price
[02:51:33] <jmkasunich> ok, who was reporting the eth0:avahi problem on the atom?
[02:51:58] <eric_unterhausen> it was Guest835 I think
[02:52:06] <jmkasunich> oh, I thought it was one of the erics
[02:52:14] <jmkasunich> I have that problem now
[02:52:30] <jmkasunich> using the experimental SMP RT kernel
[02:52:38] <ehj> No not me.
[02:52:44] <eric_unterhausen> what is avahi?
[02:52:48] <jmkasunich> I was OK with the mainstream linuxcnc kernel, 2.6.24-16-rtai
[02:53:23] <jmkasunich> ifconfig shows eth0 and eth0:avahi as two different interfaces, neither one works
[02:53:40] <jmkasunich> I dunno what avahi means, probably an ethernet chipset or something
[02:53:51] <eric_unterhausen> sounds familiar
[02:53:56] <justa> no
[02:54:02] <justa> avahi is zeroconf
[02:54:12] <jmkasunich> ?
[02:54:30] <eric_unterhausen> http://avahi.org/
[02:54:41] <justa> a 'meta' interface for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avahi_(software)
[02:55:21] <jmkasunich> so you're saying that it showing up the same time as my network breaks is just a coincidence?
[02:56:45] <justa> it might actually have to do with it.
[02:56:50] <eric_unterhausen> that's weird that it shows up in ifconfig
[02:57:06] <justa> nah; it makes an alias interface to bind to
[02:57:53] <jmkasunich> ps says I have _two_ instances of the avahi daemon, and _two_ of avahi_autoipd
[02:58:04] <justa> dunno if that's 'usual'
[02:58:25] <jmkasunich> I have a normal DHCP server on my network, why do I need this avahi?
[02:58:25] <justa> can you see if it's really two processes, or is it perhaps a thread ?
[02:58:25] <ehj> jmk: A google search gets quite a few hits for eth0:avahi and listing a number of problems, especially with DHCP. I don't see exactly what you are describing so far.
[02:58:28] <eric_unterhausen> just reading the wiki, it doesn't seem like I need it
[02:58:46] <justa> you don't *need* it.
[02:58:49] <jmkasunich> ehj: yeah, I did the search too, was starting to read
[02:58:59] <jmkasunich> apt-get remove avahi* ;-)
[03:00:17] <eric_unterhausen> apt-get doesn't have a list command?
[03:00:22] <jmkasunich> justa: my ps-foo is weak, I can tell you that they have consecutive process numbers
[03:00:36] <justa> eric_unterhausen: 'dpkg -l' lists all installed packages
[03:00:55] <eric_unterhausen> thx
[03:00:59] <justa> apt-get install fetches them from configured repositories and 'internally' uses 'dpkg -i' to install them.
[03:01:17] <eric_unterhausen> jmkasunich: I have 2 avagu-daemon
[03:01:18] <justa> to search for available packages, use 'apt-cache search somestring'
[03:01:45] <eric_unterhausen> but no interface for avahi
[03:05:03] <justa> I see that i have two avahid's running too.. One 'running', the other is a 'chroot helper'; I'm guessing it's a priviledge seperation scheme
[03:06:30] <jmkasunich> ah
[03:06:42] <jmkasunich> well, they're gone now (uninstalled and rebooted)
[03:06:47] <jmkasunich> but my network still doesn't work
[03:06:48] <justa> aieee
[03:07:05] <jmkasunich> aieee?
[03:07:06] <eric_unterhausen> worth a try
[03:07:07] <justa> anything in dmesg about 'etho' ?
[03:07:10] <justa> err
[03:07:11] <justa> eth0
[03:07:13] <jmkasunich> looking now
[03:07:23] <justa> did you replace a/the card with a new one perhaps ?
[03:07:56] <justa> how are you configuring the network ?.. via /etc/network/interfaces ? or via the gnome/KDE network-management-thingy ?
[03:10:40] <jmkasunich> background: this is a new Atom mobo
[03:10:48] <jmkasunich> I installed hardy, the net worked
[03:10:58] <jmkasunich> installed the standard linuxcnc RT kernel, the net worked
[03:11:05] <jmkasunich> installed xubuntu, the net worked
[03:11:25] <jmkasunich> installed an older, "experimental" RT kernel with SMP support, the net doesn't work
[03:11:57] <jmkasunich> I saved dmesg to a file and am rebooting that box back to a working kernel so I can stop switching back and forth
[03:13:11] <justa> hmm. Okie.
[03:13:46] <jmk-robot> and here I am
[03:14:25] <jmk-robot> jmkasunich@robot:~$ grep eth0 bootlog.smp
[03:14:25] <jmk-robot> [ 3.103942] eth0: RTL8168b/8111b at 0xe001a000, 00:1c:c0:b4:c1:95, IRQ 20
[03:14:25] <jmk-robot> [ 39.678186] r8169: eth0: link down
[03:14:25] <jmk-robot> [ 39.678234] ADDRCONF(NETDEV_UP): eth0: link is not ready
[03:14:25] <jmk-robot> jmkasunich@robot:~$ grep eth0 bootlog.up
[03:14:26] <jmk-robot> [ 19.700767] eth0: RTL8168c/8111c at 0xe000e000, 00:1c:c0:b4:c1:95, XID 3c4000c0 IRQ 11
[03:14:28] <jmk-robot> [ 58.355377] r8169: eth0: link up
[03:14:30] <jmk-robot> [ 58.355396] r8169: eth0: link up
[03:14:32] <jmk-robot> [ 76.573703] eth0: no IPv6 routers present
[03:14:34] <jmk-robot> jmkasunich@robot:~$
[03:14:55] <jmk-robot> similar but not identical drivers are being loaded
[03:15:02] <jmk-robot> different IRQs
[03:16:20] <jmk-robot> the uniprocessor kernel is 2.6.24-16-rtai, the non-working SMP one is
[03:16:39] <jmk-robot> maybe the .20 has an out-of-date driver for this nic?
[03:17:53] <justa> hmm.. possible; can't say
[03:18:06] <justa> RTL's are always a pain, anyhow
[03:18:31] <jmk-robot> yeah, thats why I'm using a kernel that cradek built well over a year ago instead of trying to do my own
[03:18:46] <justa> but; at least it's not a 'mac-address changing' issue with the /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-netdevices file shifting device-labels around
[03:19:09] <jmk-robot> too much stuff goes on behind the curtains anymore
[03:19:25] <jmk-robot> its nice when it "just works"
[03:19:45] <jmk-robot> but when it doesn't, I have very few clues
[03:21:01] <justa> *nod*. I'm a linux sys-admin; we do Ubuntu and Debian so it's not too hard to stay ontop of things.
[03:21:33] <justa> but when it's just 'your tool', then it's harder. Chances are, however, that in this case it might be a driver-release that just doesnt support this chipset (properly)
[03:22:35] <jmk-robot> so if I want to use both cores (and realtime) on this project, I need to build an SMP kernel, using a more up-to-date driver
[03:24:22] <justa> From what I saw so far; i can't see anything else 'obvious' that it might be.
[03:24:32] <justa> except perhaps RT-breakage in this driver
[03:24:42] <justa> something that prevents it working with RT-extensions at all
[03:24:52] <justa> (in SMP)
[03:25:19] <jmk-robot> that seems unlikely, the RT extensions aren't really even loaded yet, just the bare minimum patches in the kernel itself
[03:25:26] <jmk-robot> although anything is possible
[03:26:16] <jmk-robot> copying the working driver from /lib/modules/working to /lib/modules/not-working is a recipe for instant crash, right?
[03:26:29] <jmk-robot> well, instance on reboot
[03:28:37] <jmk-robot> more from dmesg:
[03:28:48] <jmk-robot> jmkasunich@robot:~$ grep r8169 bootlog.smp
[03:28:49] <jmk-robot> [ 3.103069] r8169 Gigabit Ethernet driver 2.2LK loaded
[03:28:49] <jmk-robot> [ 39.678186] r8169: eth0: link down
[03:28:49] <jmk-robot> jmkasunich@robot:~$ grep r8169 bootlog.up
[03:28:49] <jmk-robot> [ 19.700114] r8169 Gigabit Ethernet driver 2.2LK loaded
[03:28:49] <jmk-robot> [ 19.700394] r8169 0000:01:00.0: no MSI. Back to INTx.
[03:28:51] <jmk-robot> [ 58.355377] r8169: eth0: link up
[03:28:55] <jmk-robot> [ 58.355396] r8169: eth0: link up
[03:39:43] <jmkasunich> looks like that driver had problems in the 2.6.20 kernels, supposedly fixed in 2.6.22 and later
[03:41:58] <justa> hmm
[03:42:29] <justa> that could then be it
[03:42:36] <jmkasunich> decisions decisions - do I try to build a kernel, or do I do this project with only one core?
[03:42:43] <justa> I'd have to check the changelogs for it.. but; ah well.
[03:43:02] <justa> Well, why not start with a kernel that works ?.. Compiling a kernel for it later isnt too much of a bother.
[03:43:16] <justa> if it'll work with one CPU of horse-power.. it should fly with two
[03:43:28] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:43:42] <jmkasunich> the project is an autonomous robot using vision to navigate a maze
[03:44:02] <jmkasunich> two cores = twice as many images, half as much time to move off course between images
[03:44:32] <jmkasunich> approx twice anyway, I'm sure it won't thread perfectly
[03:45:01] <jmkasunich> but even if the 2nd core just let me keep the RT code and the image processing from stepping on each others toes it would help
[03:45:35] <justa> *nod*
[03:46:03] <jmkasunich> I'll use the single core RT kernel for now
[03:46:17] <jmkasunich> but.... bummer
[03:46:52] <justa> on the subject of stepper-drivers... any suggestions on good approaches ?.. the 297,298-design ?.. the 6203 ?.. the Allegro a3977 ?.. Discrete FET's ?
[03:47:05] <jmkasunich> depends on your needs
[03:47:09] <jmkasunich> and budget
[03:47:15] <justa> Why not stick in a dirt-cheap Intel card into the PCI slot ?
[03:47:26] <justa> Intel cards just ... work
[03:48:02] <jmkasunich> the slot is likely to be obstructed
[03:48:18] <jmkasunich> bought this card because it is small. 6.75" square by about 1" thick
[03:48:20] <justa> Well; i'm getting 3 x 4.1V, 1.2A steppers. Aim to make a small XY table with it; first with DVD-laser head; later with small spindle
[03:48:32] <jmkasunich> the vehicle won't be much bigger than card + battery + laptop hard disk
[03:48:37] <justa> *nod*
[03:48:57] <jmkasunich> are those nema23 steppers?
[03:49:05] <eric_unterhausen> buy geckos and be done with it
[03:49:31] <jmkasunich> geckos are certainly the best performance, but at $120ish a drive, might be overkill for that size motor
[03:50:02] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: how big is this robot?
[03:50:16] <justa> jmkasunich: they're likely from an old copier or printer
[03:50:29] <eric_unterhausen> l298
[03:50:39] <justa> i have yet to procure them; but the sale-agreement (if you can call it that) has been made.
[03:50:42] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: IS the hdd IDE or SATA?
[03:50:48] <jmkasunich> IDE
[03:50:53] <jmkasunich> 40-44 pin conv
[03:51:24] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: A CF card is bootable and direct pin-to-pin compatable with IDE http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.10309
[03:51:42] <jmkasunich> JymmmEMC: I know, that is on the "if I have time" list
[03:51:45] <justa> CF->IDE is yum
[03:51:54] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: Since you are not using it long term that is.
[03:52:18] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: free shipping on that adapter too.
[03:52:21] <jmkasunich> justa: http://www.xylotex.com/3axBoard.htm
[03:52:45] <jmkasunich> JymmmEMC: to be honest, I'll be pushing to get this working by the deadline
[03:52:56] <justa> jmkasunich: no EU sales.
[03:53:11] <jmkasunich> if I have some spare time, I'll spend it trying to make an SMP kernel to get better performance, not reinstalling the OS on a flash card
[03:53:35] <jmkasunich> wtf, that isn't very nice
[03:53:37] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: Not install, image.
[03:53:52] <justa> jmkasunich: indeed.
[03:54:10] <justa> i find dealing with US shops as a .EU'er rather tedious at best; impossible at worst
[03:54:19] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: It takes 12 minutes for 6GB
[03:54:49] <jmkasunich> the xylotex drives are a nice half-way point - less power and performance than geckos, but much less cost
[03:55:00] <justa> And since I'm capable of etching my own boards (or have them be made for me); i'm looking for a nice design to build.
[03:55:10] <jmkasunich> since they are bipolar chopper drives, they do a lot better than most homebrew drives
[03:55:13] <justa> There's the boards at 'hobbycnc.com' that look promising, though
[03:56:02] <jmkasunich> if you are good with electronics, you might want to look for the allegro chips that xylotex uses
[03:56:18] <jmkasunich> there is very little on their board besides that chip and some bypass caps, etc
[03:56:32] <jmkasunich> I could probably dig up the number
[03:56:57] <justa> jmkasunich: yeah; i was looking at the Allegro A3977.. Microstepping driver for 2.5A, 35volt max,
[03:56:59] <jmkasunich> do you know how your motors are wired? unipolar, bipolar, or universal?
[03:57:09] <jmkasunich> thats the one
[03:57:12] <eric_unterhausen> justa, did you look at pminmo.com?
[03:57:39] <justa> The A3977's would cost me about $5 a piece
[03:57:49] <justa> which sounds like a rather great deal .
[03:57:54] <justa> eric_unterhausen: looking now
[03:58:05] <jmkasunich> heh, if you are equipped (test equipment, knowledge, etc) to use them, should be great
[03:58:44] <jmkasunich> http://pminmo.com/ss3977/ss3977.htm
[03:58:55] <eric_unterhausen> or you and 9999 friends can do a group buy g540 for $120
[03:59:10] <justa> got scope, meters, parts; just not quite sure about motor-driving specifics.
[03:59:22] <justa> oh and got some stabilized lab-supplies and all that.
[03:59:54] <jmkasunich> if you don't have power electronics experience, budget a few chips for smoke/education
[03:59:57] <eric_unterhausen> interestingly, motor controls may work better on an unregulated dc supply
[04:00:28] <jepler> justa: I use a board based on A3977 (xylotex.com), but I am far from the voltage and current limits. It works well for me.
[04:00:38] <justa> eric_unterhausen: I wasnt planning to dedicate a lab-supply to the in-system board; but for testing,.. hey.
[04:00:46] <jmkasunich> 1.2A steppers would be far from the current limits
[04:00:52] <eric_unterhausen> geckos are more in yurp though
[04:01:02] <justa> jepler: *nod* I aim to stay well under what the board can do too.. Just to be sure that I'm not running into weird issues on that side
[04:01:04] <jepler> yeah, 1.2A is comparable to my system. My DC supply is 27V (switching regulator)
[04:01:17] <jmkasunich> 4.1V nominal and a 35V max supply is a bit under 10x overdrive, it will work, but not be the fastest possible drive
[04:01:47] <justa> jmkasunich: flank rise times will be big ?
[04:02:16] <jmkasunich> drive as in motor torque at high speed
[04:02:27] <justa> ahright
[04:02:45] <jmkasunich> using rated voltage on a stepper gives you rated torque at zero speed only, speed drops off very fast because of motor inductance
[04:02:55] <justa> right
[04:03:08] <jmkasunich> chopper drives let you apply much higher than rated voltage for better torque at speed
[04:03:09] <justa> but that's motor-related; not board/driver related though ?
[04:03:19] <jmkasunich> 10 to 25x rated is considered good
[04:03:20] <justa> ah; okie
[04:03:56] <jmkasunich> you will have about 7x or 8x
[04:04:05] <jmkasunich> I think you said your motor voltage is 4.1V?
[04:04:08] <justa> so you pulse 10-25x more than 'what the motor is supposed to take in sustained mode', and keep the duty-cycle low; right ?
[04:04:13] <justa> yes.
[04:04:17] <justa> 4.1
[04:04:25] <jmkasunich> yes, but "you" is the chip
[04:04:35] <jmkasunich> something like the allegro 3977 does that automagically
[04:04:37] <justa> I'm getting them cheap; second-hand.. etc.
[04:05:05] <jepler> 'night all
[04:05:25] <justa> Yes; i figured that. I've been looking through the datasheets of a number of the drivers and some of the 'standard application notes' for a couple of them
[04:06:23] <jmkasunich> I haven't looked at the pminmo site before - under the horrible site layout, I think he tells you everything you need to build your own board, or you can buy bareboards from him
[04:06:42] <eric_unterhausen> the boards he sells are nice
[04:06:51] <justa> Yeah; the info looks interesting; the.. design of the site had me .. stunned
[04:06:53] <eric_unterhausen> but he may not want to ship
[04:07:43] <justa> no problem
[04:07:45] <jmkasunich> justa: where in .eu are you?
[04:08:11] <justa> since I wouldnt buy it anyhow; 8 euro for a blank PCB that the plans are posted for is something I can easily do myself
[04:08:17] <justa> especially since it's single-side
[04:09:02] <justa> and I noticed that the 3977 comes in TSSOP and PLCC ... and i'd really prefer it in a PLCC
[04:09:09] <justa> jmkasunich: Amsterdam
[04:09:22] <jmkasunich> it is either very late or very early there
[04:09:29] <jmkasunich> getting late here (11pm)
[04:09:39] <jmkasunich> I need to walk the dog and get some sleep
[04:09:46] <jmkasunich> thanks for the help with the driver issue
[04:10:13] <justa> it's 5.10AM
[04:10:23] <justa> jmkasunich: no prob. Hope it was useful
[04:11:00] <jmkasunich> kept me from chasing that avahi thing all over the place
[04:11:15] <justa> it might yet escape and eat holes in your fence
[08:02:31] <kg> moin
[08:03:14] <kg> kg is now known as karlo
[08:03:49] <karlo> ewig nicht mehr in nem channel gewese
[08:06:05] <karlo> mh, 100 Leute angemeldet und keiner da?
[08:07:16] <karlo> sorry, maybe this is an english channel?
[08:11:59] <micges> yes
[08:34:57] <alex_joni> hello
[08:35:06] <alex_joni> karlo: sometimes we understand german too ;)
[08:35:25] <alex_joni> but usually more people are around on US times
[08:51:55] <karlo> hi alex
[08:57:35] <karlo> ok, no problem
[09:17:38] <alex_joni> karlo: just ask if you have questions
[09:27:46] <alex_joni> karlo: are you from cncecke?
[09:27:56] <alex_joni> if english is not ok for you then /join #emc-de
[09:28:27] <alex_joni> btw.. this is really cool: http://www.chippc.com/thin-clients/jack-pc/
[10:07:11] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[10:07:26] <micges_emc> good morning
[11:00:53] <micges> where is the info what M62 M63 do ?
[11:02:14] <micges> what mean synced with motion ?
[11:32:38] <piasdom> micges : in the manual, there's a little at chapter 12.10
[11:36:25] <karlo> sorry, custome was here
[11:36:58] <karlo> yes
[11:37:18] <karlo> mh, how works "answe to"?
[11:37:55] <karlo> alex: yes, cncecke
[11:50:50] <alex_joni> micges: it's supposed to work like this
[11:51:11] <alex_joni> with the ones synced to motion, they should happen just before the next motion line (so at the beginning)
[11:51:22] <alex_joni> the ones not synced with motion will be turned on/off just as they reach motion
[11:51:45] <alex_joni> (you know that motion lines get put on the TP queue, and get executed when they are due..)
[11:52:15] <alex_joni> karlo: /join #emc-de - dann koennen wir deutsch reden, geht etwas schneller/besser hoffentlich
[11:54:09] <micges_emc> alex_joni: thanks, this info can be in the user manual
[11:54:32] <micges_emc> there is too little about M62 63
[11:54:49] <micges_emc> I think BigJohnT can take care of this
[12:34:13] <alex_joni> micges_emc: I'm not saying it works like that currently
[12:34:27] <alex_joni> it should work that way.. if it doesn't then it's probably buggy
[12:34:47] <micges_emc> hehe
[12:34:49] <alex_joni> the reason is that I fixed it once to work ok, but that was before the TP rewrite (waaaay long ago)
[12:35:30] <micges_emc> I don't have idea how to test correctness of this
[12:35:45] <micges_emc> I'm testing now table mill
[12:38:57] <micges_emc> I'm sure that M64 M65 works ok :)
[12:39:44] <alex_joni> halscope maybe
[12:45:11] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[12:50:45] <justa> since there's more people awake now, I'll ask this again: Anyone here have experience with 'cheap chinese laser engravers' and the type of interface they use ?
[12:54:40] <micges> justa: cheap chinese in my language means: don't buy it !:)
[12:55:38] <justa> micges: this is where the problem lies: It has been bought ;)
[12:56:15] <micges> I have one chinese machine here, after few month only chinese part left is steel table :D
[12:56:29] <justa> micges: don't worry.. It wasnt me that spent any money on it ; but i'd be liking to use it with less weird software
[12:57:51] <micges> whats wrong with software now ?
[12:59:52] <justa> micges: it's called 'Newlydraw'.. Windows (xp) only, USB-dongle... half-chinese
[13:01:52] <micges> heh I had simmilar one (in english even)
[13:02:56] <micges> we easy put EMC on it but more problem is how to create gcode for it
[13:05:22] <micges> you must know many thing about it if you want to put EMC on it
[13:05:33] <micges> have any documentation ?
[13:05:41] <archivist> justa, you had about the best answer yesterday, use a logic analyser to find what the pins do
[13:07:00] <Mark_FAPS> hello all!
[13:10:52] <Mark_FAPS> I just noticed that in version 2.2.8 the kinematic modules have hal_parms while the newest version in cvs has hal_pins, so would a module compiled with pins work in version 2.2.8?
[13:12:26] <alex_joni> Mark_FAPS: sure
[13:12:29] <alex_joni> and the other way around
[13:12:47] <alex_joni> the whole idea is that we encourage less parameters, and more pins to be used
[13:13:12] <alex_joni> (that way someone can connect things to them.. you can only setp params)
[13:13:36] <alex_joni> for kins it's unlikely you want to connect something to the pins definind how the kins work.. but it may be possible
[13:14:02] <alex_joni> (think a pin for setting the thermal expansion of a screw, then you use a temperature gauge, and connect the temperature value to the kins pin)
[13:15:00] <Mark_FAPS> ok thank you :)
[13:15:18] <alex_joni> sure, np
[13:19:06] <justa> archivist: true; just wondering if anyone else here had any real experience and/or knowledge about these typical devices.
[13:19:56] <alex_joni> justa: no worries about asking, but I doubt you'll get a reply from people here
[13:20:07] <justa> alex_joni: righto
[13:20:08] <alex_joni> (I mean the reply you're after..)
[13:20:20] <justa> Perhaps I should ask in some chinese forum ;)
[13:20:30] <alex_joni> well.. good luck with that
[13:20:39] <Mark_FAPS> another question: if I try to load a module in halrun and it fails to load so that I cant unload it anymore, neither with unloadrt or modprobe, is there away of geting rid of it without rebooting the pc?
[13:20:49] <alex_joni> there was an Eric guy doing emc2 & laser around here
[13:21:09] <alex_joni> Mark_FAPS: fails to load should mean it's not loaded
[13:21:41] <Mark_FAPS> if I type show it says as state: initialising, and I cant getr rid of it
[13:22:34] <archivist> justa, most of us in here would just rip out the specials and drive with EMC2
[13:23:17] <alex_joni> Mark_FAPS: did you configure for simulator?
[13:23:37] <alex_joni> archivist: righto
[13:24:54] <Mark_FAPS> alex_joni: where would I do that? sorry I'm still not shure I quite understood the whole compiling process
[13:25:20] <justa> archivist: i would (and will , eventually) too.. if it ere my machine. I'm sure that the owner will end up frustrated with the system as it is..But , ah well.
[13:25:22] <alex_joni> err.. maybe tell me how you do it now?
[13:25:44] <Mark_FAPS> alex_joni: with sudo comp --install
[13:33:15] <eric_unterhause1> i thought there was discussion of cheap laser engravers on cnczone
[13:33:49] <justa> eric_unterhause1: there is; just no real resolution/conclusion. No info about feasibility of leaving the controller intact
[13:33:52] <eric_unterhause1> and also much wailing and gnashing of teeth
[13:34:17] <justa> the biggest issue i'd be having is how to interface the laser-PSU to something I can use.
[13:47:13] <skunkworks> what is the interface?
[13:47:57] <justa> skunkworks: it's paralel; but it doesnt seem to be 'passive'. There's a good bunch of controllers (40-pin DIP chips) and an EPROM with a firmware-revision label on it.
[13:48:05] <justa> (on the controller board).
[13:51:44] <skunkworks> ah - so your going to have to do some digging.
[13:53:55] <justa> skunkworks: indeed. Just was hoping somebody had any experience with these things. Seems that there's a whole series of 'brands' all selling the same boxes with the same specs, software, etc. The thing that 'worries me' is that they took the trouble of cutting off 5 of the pins off of one 40-pin DIP, aswell as go over the markings with sandpaper..
[13:54:13] <justa> So.. i think there might be a reason why 'nobody has a clue what these things do'.
[14:13:39] <skunkworks> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72439
[14:19:29] <The_Ball> skunkworks, how's the servo h-bridge going?
[14:23:28] <alex_joni> in circles
[14:25:06] <skunkworks> Good - have not had a chance to really test the latest revision other than knowing the logic works and it spins the motor :)
[14:25:07] <The_Ball> oh dear, well i'm off to bed
[14:25:22] <The_Ball> oh there you are
[14:25:40] <The_Ball> was there errors in the previous logic?
[14:26:20] <The_Ball> i let out some smoke on a new servo controller today :(
[14:26:22] <skunkworks> I had to add a diode across the input to the comparator for negative voltages.
[14:26:29] <skunkworks> yecky.
[14:27:22] <The_Ball> well it should give me some use for my new smd reflowing solder station
[14:28:18] <The_Ball> anyway, time for bed
[14:28:23] <skunkworks> good night
[15:55:58] <alex_joni> hey Mark_FAPS
[15:59:17] <alex_joni> I notice your ip says faps.uni-erlangen.de
[15:59:25] <Mark_FAPS> yes
[15:59:32] <alex_joni> I was wondering what you are planning with emc2 at FAPS ;)
[16:00:12] <Mark_FAPS> I'm a student and I'm supposed to try and get a kinematik for a tripod working in emc2
[16:00:31] <alex_joni> ah, cool
[16:00:39] <Mark_FAPS> first as a sim and then maybe in real
[16:00:39] <alex_joni> tripod should be fairly easy
[16:01:21] <alex_joni> sounds good
[16:01:38] <alex_joni> did they point you towards emc2? or was it something you decided?
[16:02:32] <Mark_FAPS> yes they said look here a linux cnc programm go and look at it^^
[16:03:31] <Mark_FAPS> the kinematiks are quite complex though a bit like this maschine : http://www.drives.co.uk/images/news/ABB%20Flexpicker%20first%20gen.jpg
[16:04:23] <Mark_FAPS> I also got a working matlab kinemtiks which I'm now trying to implement in c for the emc
[16:07:04] <alex_joni> oh, so not a simple tripod then
[16:07:10] <alex_joni> I know the flexpicker..
[16:07:43] <Mark_FAPS> ahh, nice
[16:07:53] <alex_joni> scary fast though :D
[16:08:47] <Mark_FAPS> ohh yes theres one in the same hall as me, its very fascinating to watch
[16:08:50] <alex_joni> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADLMXMxLRy8
[16:09:31] <alex_joni> that's 4 dof's .. right?
[16:10:07] <Mark_FAPS> 4 dots?
[16:10:36] <archivist> degrees of freedom
[16:10:40] <alex_joni> DOF = degree of freedom (freiheitsgrade)
[16:12:48] <Mark_FAPS> its got 3 motors (joints) so I think that makes it 3 dof, but I'm not too sure, I'm rather happy I don't have to figure out al the maths, but I'm really having a fight with al the matrixes here
[16:13:40] <alex_joni> I think it has a 4th motor in the middle
[16:13:46] <alex_joni> that rotates the gripped part
[16:14:48] <Mark_FAPS> ah yes in the video thats true, our one is used to wind wires for motors so it doesnt need a fourth dof
[16:14:56] <alex_joni> right
[16:15:15] <alex_joni> Mark_FAPS: you can join #emc-de .. da spricht man deutsch
[16:15:26] <alex_joni> (it's pretty empty though :)
[16:15:45] <Mark_FAPS> I will help fill it then :)
[16:16:05] <Mark_FAPS> just have to figure out how this is the first time I use IRC
[16:16:20] <alex_joni> Mark_FAPS: type /join #emc-de
[16:33:22] <cradek> alex_joni: Mark's english was perfectly fine - why a special channel?
[16:33:40] <alex_joni> cradek: not necessarely for Mark
[16:33:46] <alex_joni> he left anyways..
[16:41:24] <archivist> Ive noticed over the years on IRC that the germans have no trouble with english
[16:42:08] <alex_joni> archivist: only slower in typing
[16:42:28] <alex_joni> but depends on the language literation level :D
[16:42:30] <alex_joni> I guess..
[16:46:16] <donald83> uups, back in emc ???
[16:46:36] <jepler> hi donald83
[16:46:53] <alex_joni> hi donald83
[16:47:55] <donald83> alex: can I use default from menuconfig rtai?
[16:48:02] <alex_joni> yes
[16:48:05] <alex_joni> it should be fine
[16:48:32] <alex_joni> building rtai is .. maybe 5 minutes
[16:48:42] <alex_joni> so if something is still missing, we can always do it again
[16:49:02] <donald83> configure: error: HAL patch not applied/enabled in /usr/src/linux
[16:49:30] <alex_joni> hmm.. is your kernel source in /usr/src/linux?
[16:49:35] <donald83> yes
[16:49:59] <alex_joni> and /usr/src/linux/.config has IPIPE mentioned in it.. ?
[16:50:53] <alex_joni> mine says" CONFIG_IPIPE=y
[16:51:01] <donald83> no
[16:51:07] <alex_joni> then something is not right
[16:51:40] <alex_joni> the kernel source you patch must have that
[16:51:53] <donald83> whish category in menuconfig is it?
[16:51:54] <alex_joni> how did you compile?
[16:52:14] <donald83> menuconfig make .....
[16:52:16] <alex_joni> did you use only menuconfig? or did you build debian packages?
[16:52:30] <alex_joni> linux-image-2.6.24-rtai*.deb ?
[16:52:39] <donald83> at the end I build debian package
[16:52:46] <donald83> yes
[16:53:01] <alex_joni> did you build a headers package?
[16:53:06] <donald83> following the steps I found
[16:53:30] <donald83> Not shure, how I can check?
[16:53:49] <alex_joni> linux-headers-2.6.24-rtai*.deb
[16:54:04] <alex_joni> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Debian_Lenny_Compile_RTAI#Installing_kernel
[16:54:38] <alex_joni> a headers package basicly contains files that are different then the standard kernel source
[16:56:20] <donald83> I have linux-headers-2.6.24-rtai_r1_i386.deb but apt-get will not eat
[16:56:38] <alex_joni> sudo dpkg -i linux-headers-2.6.24-rtai_r1_i386.deb
[16:57:18] <donald83> is working
[16:57:44] <donald83> now cernel new make?
[16:57:47] <alex_joni> once it's installed, you can go back to the rtai menuconfig, and point it to /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.24 (or whatever the folder is called)
[16:58:05] <alex_joni> no, kernel is ok.. we only need to compile/install rtai against the headers
[16:58:06] <alex_joni> then emc2
[17:00:56] <donald83> I dont find the poin to say "there are the headers...
[17:01:22] <donald83> configure: error: HAL patch not applied/enabled in /usr/src/linux
[17:02:02] <alex_joni> schau nach wo linux-headers-* installiert wurde
[17:02:13] <alex_joni> dpkg -L linux-headers-2.6.24-rtai
[17:03:05] <alex_joni> it should be /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.24-rtai/*
[17:03:07] <donald83> Im new at debian, long years a SuSE freak
[17:03:15] <donald83> yes, it is
[17:03:18] <alex_joni> I switched maybe 4 years ago..
[17:03:40] <alex_joni> ok, now you need to tell rtai (in menuconfig) that the linux kernel is in /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.24-rtai
[17:03:44] <alex_joni> not in /usr/src/linux
[17:03:50] <donald83> I was long time beta-tester, but since Novell......
[17:04:13] <alex_joni> yast was something I missed initially when I switched to debian..
[17:05:10] <donald83> now you need to tell rtai (in menuconfig) this is what im searching
[17:05:29] <donald83> now you need to tell rtai (in menuconfig) this is what Im searching
[17:05:35] <alex_joni> you're on your own.. don't remember where.. but there's an option for kernel source
[17:06:22] <SWPadnos> isn't it called "Adeos" or "Interrupt Pipeline" in the kernel config?
[17:06:45] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: in menuconfig yes, in the config file it's CONFIG_IPIPE
[17:06:51] <SWPadnos> right
[17:06:53] <alex_joni> but he's doing the "rtai" menuconfig now
[17:06:58] <alex_joni> different one :)
[17:07:01] <SWPadnos> oh, *that* menuconfig :)
[17:07:31] <SWPadnos> sorry - just having my first sips of coffee now
[17:07:37] <alex_joni> donald83: the rtai menuconfig has lots of levels..
[17:07:47] <alex_joni> but I'm pretty sure the kernel source was the first option
[17:07:58] <donald83> menuconfig ask for linux-source tree and installation directory, no mor chance to put in a path
[17:08:25] <alex_joni> where it asks for linux-source tree you need to put "/usr/src/linux-headers..."
[17:09:02] <cradek> "Part is an aluminum frame 3.5x1.4x.25. Profiled out of .375 stock, plan was to turn over and face off the back and have the part fall out."
[17:09:06] <cradek> uh, yeah, that'll work
[17:10:18] <donald83> configure: error: No Linux kernel tree in /usr/src/linux-headers
[17:10:43] <alex_joni> you need the full path /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.24-rtai
[17:13:15] <donald83> configure: error: HAL patch not applied/enabled in /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.24-rtai
[17:14:01] <alex_joni> donald83: sorry.. you probably missed something..
[17:14:52] <alex_joni> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Debian_Lenny_Compile_RTAI
[17:15:03] <alex_joni> that instruction is very good.. try to follow it exactly
[17:15:23] <donald83> ok, se you later, thanks
[17:16:10] <alex_joni> see you later :)
[17:20:03] <donald83> you think, my kernel is ok? or I start wit it?
[17:20:20] <jepler> if test -r $LINUX_KERNELSRC/include/linux/adeos.h; then
[17:20:21] <alex_joni> donald83: it should be ok
[17:20:23] <jepler> elif test -r $LINUX_KERNELSRC/include/linux/ipipe.h; then
[17:20:33] <alex_joni> but do as jepler says
[17:20:47] <alex_joni> look for /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.24-rtai/include/linux/ipipe.h
[17:20:47] <jepler> it is checking for one of these files inside the linux-headers directory. If these don't exist, then the problem was probably in building the kernel
[17:20:57] <jepler> building or packaging
[17:21:14] <alex_joni> packaging maybe
[17:21:15] <jepler> probably the second one, ipipe.h
[17:21:36] <alex_joni> the kernel he installed and booted is 2.6.24-rtai (in uname -a)
[17:21:39] <alex_joni> so that part looks ok
[17:21:52] <alex_joni> (patch and all).. but the headers deb might be wrong..
[17:24:25] <donald83> find / -name adeos.h didnt found it
[17:24:33] <alex_joni> it's probably ipipe.h
[17:24:48] <donald83> also not found
[17:24:48] <alex_joni> adeos was the older name.. still used up to 2.6.1x or so
[17:24:58] <alex_joni> then there's something completely foobar
[17:25:04] <alex_joni> did you look in /usr/src ?
[17:25:16] <jepler> if you don't have that file anywhere, including in the location where you built the kernel, then you built the kernel incorrectly
[17:25:25] <donald83> I try find /
[17:25:41] <alex_joni> donald83: then probably the kernel is not ok either
[17:25:57] <jepler> that file should have been created within the kernel source when you applied the patch from rtai to the kernel
[17:26:20] <jepler> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Debian_Lenny_Compile_RTAI#Applying_RTAI_patches
[17:33:23] <donald83> arghh..... now I run in the same problem with etch..... there is no kernel-source 2.6.22 and no rtai for kernel 2.6.24....
[17:34:07] <alex_joni> sure there is for 2.6.24
[17:34:22] <alex_joni> 3.6.2 or 3.6-cv works ok for 2.6.24
[17:35:08] <donald83> rtai-3.6-cv/base/arch/i386/patches/
[17:35:09] <alex_joni> the patch is in the x86 folder though
[17:35:13] <alex_joni> not in i386
[17:35:18] <donald83> hal-linux-2.4.34-i386-1.3-04.patch
[17:35:19] <donald83> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 154680 2008-04-11 22:47 hal-linux-
[17:35:19] <donald83> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 154680 2008-04-11 22:47 hal-linux-2.4.36-i386-1.3-04.patch
[17:35:19] <donald83> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 227117 2007-02-10 23:42 hal-linux-2.6.19-i386-1.7-01.patch
[17:35:19] <donald83> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 249524 2008-02-13 14:18 hal-linux-
[17:35:19] <donald83> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 248825 2008-01-05 16:30 hal-linux-2.6.22-i386-1.10-12.patch
[17:35:21] <donald83> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 252799 2008-02-13 14:18 hal-linux-2.6.23-i386-1.12-03.patch
[17:35:37] <alex_joni> starting with 2.6.24 or so i386 and x86_64 have been merged into x86
[17:35:49] <alex_joni> there is only one patch for both platforms
[17:35:56] <donald83> then wiki is fault
[17:36:01] <alex_joni> so you want rtai-3.6-cv/base/arch/x86/patches/
[17:36:08] <donald83> patch -p1 < ../modules/rtai/base/arch/i386/patches/hal-linux-2.6.22-i386-1.10-12.patch
[17:36:12] <alex_joni> donald83: it's a wiki.. if it's wrong, it should get fixed
[17:36:20] <alex_joni> the wiki describes using 2.6.22
[17:36:31] <alex_joni> if you use 2.6.24 then the instructions will be different
[17:36:47] <donald83> ok
[17:37:00] <alex_joni> "NOTE: Debian way is not applicable for now because linux-source-2.6.22 was deleted from the repository and linux-source-2.6.26 which is in the repository, does not work with RTAI 3.6. For now, use the Debian way with the snapshot repository or the Classic way to get kernel source."
[17:37:09] <alex_joni> he got the source from snapshot.debian.net
[17:37:42] <archivist> live CD rules
[17:38:00] <donald83> hal-linux-2.6.24-x86-2.0-05.patch
[17:38:00] <donald83> or hal-linux-2.6.24-x86-2.0-07.patch
[17:38:00] <donald83> ??
[17:44:06] <cradek> archivist: in the early days, everyone had to do this individually to run emc...
[17:45:03] <archivist> I can imagine
[18:16:36] <alex_joni> donald83: I'd use 07
[18:17:06] <SWPadnos> heh. why make 07 if 05 works perfectly? :)
[18:17:25] <alex_joni> maybe 05 doesn't work perfectly then?
[18:17:31] <SWPadnos> huh. could be
[18:17:34] <SWPadnos> I'd use 07 :)
[18:17:47] <alex_joni> then the question is .. why package 05 in the tar.gz
[18:17:54] <alex_joni> maybe th 07 has issues aswell :D
[18:18:37] <SWPadnos> I'd use 09
[18:18:47] <SWPadnos> or 07++
[18:19:36] <alex_joni> 07 was the last one
[18:19:41] <alex_joni> http://download.gna.org/adeos/patches/v2.6/x86/older/
[18:19:42] <SWPadnos> then I'll wait
[18:19:59] <alex_joni> then you've been waiting since 22-May-2008
[18:20:21] <SWPadnos> I'm not holding my breath, just waiting :)
[18:20:28] <alex_joni> :P
[18:37:43] <jensor> SWPadnos, see http://pastebin.com/d20f9770b
[18:39:07] <SWPadnos> the screensaver is probably set to lock the session after some time, and then you need to enter your password again to unlock
[18:39:25] <SWPadnos> I'd disable any screensavers or auto-logout functionality
[18:39:39] <SWPadnos> but that's good that removing xrandr fixed the vesa problem :)
[18:39:56] <jensor> ok it also shuts down evry thing thats running
[18:40:12] <SWPadnos> not if you had an EMC2 error window there
[18:40:28] <jensor> we can shut down the screen savoer
[18:40:30] <SWPadnos> I'm hoping that you didn't try to run both types of test at the same time ...
[18:40:35] <jensor> no
[18:40:40] <SWPadnos> ok - phew :)
[18:45:07] <jensor> I remmeber why the xorg.conf shows a viewsonic VA721 Thats because that is the monitor I was using when I installed Ubuntu and emc. I later procured a viewsonic VE510s and began using that. Should I now do sudo dpkg-reconfigure -phigh xserver-xorg?
[18:47:50] <jensor> To straighten out the config for the different monitor?
[18:50:46] <SWPadnos> if it works, leave it alone :)
[18:51:26] <SWPadnos> the name doesn't matter and there are no mode lines in your config, so the available modes should be auto-detected
[18:58:21] <jensor> Checked and under Systems,Preferences, Sreen saver, I find that it is not activated. So something else must be knockin g it back to the log on screen
[19:00:48] <jensor> The default 1024 x 768 screen resolution seems to be fine
[19:01:37] <jensor> Should I be concerned that t I get knocked out of that latency test?
[19:01:48] <jensor> I've never had that happen before
[19:04:40] <skunkworks> check powersaving
[19:56:54] <jensor> Under System, Preferences, Power Management it is already set to never (sleep) and do nothing.
[20:01:05] <pjm__> evening all, are there any pci parport experts here? I'm having real troubles with a new pci dual parport card that I just bougth of ebay
[20:01:59] <pjm__> pjm__ is now known as pjm
[20:35:19] <cradek> pjm: if you ask your question, maybe you'll get an answer if someone knows it. the problem with asking for an expert is that one doesn't know whether they are an expert, since they don't know if they know the answer, since they don't know the question. I think that's why often, nobody says anything when faced with a question like that.
[20:37:24] <pjm> hahh ok
[20:37:28] <pjm> thanks i will ask
[20:38:49] <pjm> first: a PCI parport works perfectly under windows, when booting linux and lookign in lspci, the mem addresses are showing as 'disabled' , insmod'ing doesnt seem to help. http://pjm.dyndns.org/parport.txt
[20:40:22] <cradek> insmoding what?
[20:41:09] <cradek> are you trying to use these with emc? is emc installed (and therefor parport_pc kernel modules is disabled)?
[20:42:02] <pjm> emc is installed yeah, i tried these base addresses directly with EMC but of course it errors on start up
[20:42:07] <pjm> since it cannot find the ports
[20:42:23] <SWPadnos> set the BIOS to "non-plug+play OS"
[20:42:25] <cradek> did you loadrt probe_parport?
[20:44:29] <pjm> the bios is set to non-plug and play, and i did the 'reset config data' so it assignes relevant io space to the pci cards etc
[20:45:41] <pjm> loadrt probe_parport
[20:45:41] <pjm> loadrt hal_parport cfg="0x378 0xb040 in"
[20:45:41] <pjm> setp parport.0.reset-time 500
[20:45:46] <pjm> is what I have
[20:45:51] <SWPadnos> that PCI ID should have been supported since sometime in 2000 (according to this: http://cyberelk.net/tim/parport/archive/current/3496.html)
[20:45:58] <pjm> ahh ok thanks
[20:46:02] <pjm> so it should work.. hmm
[20:46:06] <cradek> does probe_parport print anything in dmesg?
[20:52:52] <pjm> ok it shows nothing in dmesg when I start emc
[20:53:09] <pjm> it starts and works with the onboard parport which controls the steppers etc
[20:53:19] <pjm> it for some reason cannot see the PCI parports
[20:53:51] <jepler> probe_parport configures isa pnp ports; it does nothing for pci ports
[20:54:21] <cradek> oh really
[20:54:29] <cradek> * cradek <- obviously not an expert
[20:54:42] <skunkworks> can't you run lspci -v and get the actual port address?
[20:54:48] <skunkworks> addresses
[20:54:50] <cradek> but, I think probe_parport does always print something in dmesg
[20:54:59] <cradek> skunkworks: http://pjm.dyndns.org/parport.txt
[20:55:30] <skunkworks> * skunkworks should read back..
[20:55:44] <jepler> reading the source code, I'd expect it to print either "parport: PnPBIOS parport detected" or "PROBE_PARPORT: no PnPBIOS parports were detected"
[20:57:43] <SWPadnos> loading parport_pc may enable the card
[20:57:48] <SWPadnos> then unload parport_pc
[20:58:50] <pjm> ok let me give that a whirl
[21:04:17] <SWPadnos> take a look at lspci after loading parport_pc, and again after unloading it
[21:05:29] <pjm> ok it reports [ 1619.121010] parport 0xb048: You gave this address, but there is probably no parallel port there! for each of the base addresses
[21:05:56] <pjm> and yet Region 0: I/O ports at a040 [disabled] [size=8] <- still showing as disabled, this is what I think is the problem
[21:06:20] <pjm> the addresses btw ignore, as I've since run the 'reset config data' so they have moved
[21:06:43] <SWPadnos> you shouldnt have to specify any port addresses with parport_pc
[21:06:46] <SWPadnos> AFAIK
[21:07:50] <bekks> hi
[21:08:13] <bekks> hmm, this isnt the EMC is suspected when looking for mass storage, right?
[21:09:43] <skunkworks> :) http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=558377&postcount=23
[21:21:42] <pjm> THANKS FOLKS!! I knew u guys would know the answer!! its working
[21:22:12] <pjm> I had to modprobe parport_pc which found the card / parports then rmmod ppdev, lp, parport_pc
[21:22:51] <pjm> ok so now that is working I will add the next parport card
[21:34:45] <ra3vat> ra3vat is now known as dimas_
[23:27:08] <BigJohnT> no power here since 10pm yesterday :( good thing I have a generator and gas heat
[23:28:05] <chr0n1c> woot!
[23:28:29] <BigJohnT> sleet then ice then sleet then ice then snow!
[23:29:07] <BigJohnT> I can't even get my 4w drive truck up my driveway!
[23:31:59] <chr0n1c> sounds about like here BigJohnT
[23:32:16] <chr0n1c> we got 3 inches of snow, half inch of ice, then about 8 more inches of snow
[23:32:55] <BigJohnT> our total is about 6-8 inches
[23:33:33] <BigJohnT> I'm in Poplar Bluff MO here
[23:33:44] <chr0n1c> Dayton, Ohio!
[23:34:24] <chr0n1c> .. i gotta make a motor coupler and get my machine running again, i got a tool pot grinder i'm going to try and convert into a new spinle, for real cutting!
[23:34:39] <chr0n1c> (it will at least be better than my dremel, HA!)
[23:34:40] <BigJohnT> cool
[23:34:48] <chr0n1c> tool post grinder*
[23:37:18] <BigJohnT> you doing pcb or milling metal?
[23:39:25] <chr0n1c> mostly pcb....
[23:39:46] <BigJohnT> cool
[23:39:53] <chr0n1c> i did a buncha wood carvings and a tiny bit of engraving on aluminum/chrome
[23:41:17] <chr0n1c> **UNTIL.... my Z axis motor coupler crapped out!
[23:41:19] <chr0n1c> :D
[23:41:24] <BigJohnT> I gotta do a wood badge sign for my partner on my mill... I did one with my plasma but after all it is a wood badge so he wants one from wood
[23:43:24] <BigJohnT> I hope they get the power back soon
[23:46:04] <BigJohnT> at least with a tool post grinder you can get some good rpm I bet
[23:53:43] <twice2> hello?
[23:53:58] <BigJohnT> hello
[23:54:24] <twice2> is the emc2 ch?
[23:54:48] <BigJohnT> yep
[23:55:14] <twice2> whoa, back to the future
[23:55:33] <chr0n1c> mcfly?
[23:56:27] <twice2> my system's been off for nine months (moved) and the buffer has my last... mcFlew
[23:58:17] <twice2> ok, tmalsh, powered up and ran synaptic update, now i only get rtai exceptions?
[23:58:45] <BigJohnT> update from what to what?
[23:59:50] <BigJohnT> ok then you have your base period set too low and now you are being told about it