#emc | Logs for 2009-01-12

[00:00:11] <beachsurfin> emc2 does 3d modeling, doesn't it?
[00:00:22] <beachsurfin> i figured opengl would be needed for that
[00:00:32] <jackc> opengl is *one* way to do it, sure
[00:00:44] <beachsurfin> but emc2 doesn't use it?
[00:00:49] <beachsurfin> sdl maybe?
[00:00:56] <jackc> i havent played with the arm simulations, but if it *did* thats where it would be
[00:01:02] <beachsurfin> what graphics library does it use?
[00:01:20] <jackc> axis doesnt use any i think, just math
[00:01:23] <jackc> basic 3d math is easy
[00:02:39] <beachsurfin> i suppose opengl is used mostly for animation then
[00:02:55] <jackc> no, its still used for still things
[00:03:08] <jackc> if you care about GL, how bout finding a gl channel?
[00:03:22] <beachsurfin> jackc: i've found one and joined
[00:04:42] <beachsurfin> according to the wikipedia article, it is used in CAD so i wasn't wrong in suppossing that it might be used with emc2
[00:04:54] <jackc> emc isnt cad
[00:04:56] <jackc> at al
[00:04:57] <jackc> *all
[00:05:31] <jackc> there is a huge difference in CAD and CAM
[00:05:37] <jackc> actually
[00:05:51] <jackc> emc isnt even technically CAM, its just a gcode editor with handy features
[00:27:42] <crotchet> beachsurfin: what is your interest in opengl?
[00:29:07] <beachsurfin> crotchet: nothing really, trying to assess the open source scene's use of programming languages
[00:29:13] <beachsurfin> i'm needing a job soon :)
[00:30:28] <crotchet> python is very popular here- axis is written in it. low-level stuff for emc is c, I believe
[00:30:49] <beachsurfin> so, i'm looking at projects that interests me and see what they use. the majority wins out, so i choose that language and get paid to work with it, potentially on the same project or am paid to hone my skills so that i can contribute to the project
[00:30:50] <crotchet> opengl is really an api
[00:31:36] <crotchet> more love of the task than money here.
[00:33:04] <crotchet> if you really want a break-down, try sourceforge and see what the projects there are written in
[00:34:25] <jackc> beachsurfin: what area are you looking to work in
[00:34:43] <jackc> honestly, skills arent really language specific
[00:35:02] <jackc> you learn a few here and there, and after a while it doesnt matter what language it is since theyre all primarily the same things
[00:35:14] <jackc> you may have a look up a specific api occasionally, but you get the point
[00:35:24] <jackc> syntax differs - architecture doesnt
[00:36:05] <beachsurfin> so mostly experience is what matters
[00:36:17] <jackc> yeah, be it on your own or otherwise
[00:36:52] <jackc> i started coding cuz i wanted to make something, not because i like programming
[00:37:20] <BigJohnT> same here
[00:37:48] <BigJohnT> I found if you don't have a goal in mind then it is hard to get past hello world
[00:38:08] <jackc> yep
[00:38:55] <BigJohnT> good night all
[00:39:55] <beachsurfin> that's good advice from bigjohnt
[01:00:05] <crotchet> beachsurfin: interesting info: http://www.ohloh.net/tools
[01:27:49] <jtr> Could someone take a look at the wiki, make sure my edit makes sense? This is the page: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#Preparing_Ubuntu_to_compile_emc2
[01:28:24] <jtr> There was a "basic steps" link in the section on adding the emc2 repository that didn't lead to useful information.
[01:29:05] <jtr> bbl
[01:58:17] <jepler> jtr: looks like mentioning to 'apt-get update' after changing apt configuration is missing
[01:58:50] <jepler> (the emc2-install script would have automatically performed that step)
[01:59:29] <jtr> Ok thanks. I'll add that in.
[02:01:27] <jtr> I wanted to get rid of the install script in case they already had an install and wanted to set up to run-in-place.
[02:03:11] <jepler> ?? if you already have an installed binary then you don't have to edit the apt configuration
[02:03:24] <jepler> oh, and you also forgot the import of the signing key, also automatically done by install.sh
[02:03:41] <jepler> so a user who follows your instructions will get warnings from apt that the package repositories can't be verified
[02:03:44] <jepler> bbl me too
[02:27:12] <jtr_> I've got a 5:30 flight, so I just reverted the changes for now. good night.
[04:03:10] <beachsurfin> thank you crotchet
[08:13:17] <tomp> i suppose it was silly to complain that 'blind' isnt in this small travelers dictionary. "and theres not much room in the book" Ford Prefect
[08:24:37] <micges> qwa
[08:27:41] <alex_joni> tomp: lol
[08:29:43] <alex_joni> "There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarrely inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened." The book ;)
[09:06:21] <tomp> ok, i'm getting 'dont panic' written on the lid of this eepc
[09:06:34] <archivist> type 42
[09:06:50] <tomp> 42
[09:06:55] <archivist> that should fix any problem
[09:07:36] <archivist> it did in a commercial accounting package I used to admin
[09:07:50] <alex_joni> archivist: bsht :D
[09:08:02] <archivist> actiually true
[09:08:18] <archivist> it dumped you aout of crashes
[09:08:32] <archivist> also left crap to fix
[09:08:51] <alex_joni> ha
[09:09:03] <tomp> wow just remebered the bible was the 'the book' tho i knew you meant the guide
[09:09:27] <tomp> the word mean the book
[09:09:59] <tomp> just weird deja vu nt get apostolic on yous
[09:10:08] <alex_joni> tomp: it came from my "fortune"
[09:10:16] <alex_joni> fortune hitchhiker
[09:10:29] <tomp> really? oh, i used zippy the pinhead
[09:11:02] <tomp> back to work :)
[09:16:56] <LawrenceG> logger_emc, bookmark
[09:16:56] <LawrenceG> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2009-01-12.txt
[10:25:27] <JustinXJS2> good evening
[10:27:04] <alex_joni> hi
[10:33:04] <JustinXJS2> I have been thinking about trying out the linistepper controller with EMC, I have been reading the EMC manual and I am trying to figure out how to set the step time, step space, etc values in the stepconf wizard, any tips?
[10:39:26] <alex_joni> JustinXJS2: sure.. on the next page I think
[10:40:02] <alex_joni> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html//stepconf-basic.png
[10:41:43] <JustinXJS2> so those values in the image should work with any controller?
[10:43:38] <archivist> look in your controllers docs to find timings
[10:44:43] <alex_joni> oh, I misread your question
[10:44:54] <alex_joni> I thought you don't know where to write your values, not what values to write
[10:45:15] <alex_joni> JustinXJS2: like archivist said.. you need to find the values based on the controller you use
[10:47:00] <archivist> perhaps a little experimentation, and also go through all the tests that stepconf allows for so you get a feel of your machines speed abilities, then run a bit slower to allow for machining load
[10:47:45] <JustinXJS2> sorry about that, my question was not very clear
[10:49:46] <alex_joni> JustinXJS2: from a quick scan on tehir website, I can't find any information
[10:49:51] <alex_joni> but I can't dig now (at work)
[10:50:27] <JustinXJS2> no worries, I have been digging for a while, and will continue to do so
[10:51:29] <archivist> Im at work as well
[10:52:05] <JustinXJS2> and I should be a sleep, but I am too exicted :-)
[10:53:36] <JustinXJS2> maybe if I understood what those time values were for I could figure it out from max step speeds other linistepper users have been able to use? do those timing values have something to do with that?
[10:54:36] <alex_joni> yes
[10:55:03] <alex_joni> JustinXJS2: start by understanding this: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TweakingSoftwareStepGeneration
[10:55:22] <The_Ball> hi guys, does anybody know about anybody who have done a home built 5 axis "cradle" style mill? The sort which have a cradle which has a rotary table on it?
[10:56:06] <archivist> cradle often known as a trunnion
[10:56:17] <The_Ball> thanks, now i know
[10:56:24] <archivist> * archivist at 4 axis and building up to 5
[10:56:40] <archivist> Im making one slowly
[10:58:29] <The_Ball> i'd like to make one fast, hehe
[11:00:24] <The_Ball> archivist, do you have a webpage/blog on it?
[11:00:39] <piasdom> g'day all
[11:00:49] <JustinXJS2> alex_joni, thanks for the link, that will be a big help
[11:01:06] <JustinXJS2> hello
[11:01:08] <alex_joni> JustinXJS2: it doesn't tell you how to get the numbers though, only what they mean
[11:02:16] <JustinXJS2> yes, but know I know what I am playing with
[11:03:01] <piasdom> what is "unexpected realtime delay on tack 1" in emc2 mini ?
[11:06:20] <archivist> The_Ball, no I have not done any articles on the trunnion
[11:06:50] <The_Ball> ok, is there any benifit to having more than 180 degrees of rotation on the main "cradle"?
[11:07:06] <piasdom> this is the complete error message "http://paste.org/index.php?id=4798" - mill still runs..no mistakes
[11:08:00] <archivist> The_Ball, dunno depends on proposed work, maybe yes or no :)
[11:08:26] <archivist> I will have > 180 probably
[11:20:15] <The_Ball> archivist, do you think ~1300oz/in continuous torque is enough on the trunnion?
[11:20:51] <archivist> also depends on work and machine size
[11:21:15] <The_Ball> small mill, ~300kg
[11:21:22] <archivist> will the endmill snap at that?
[11:21:57] <The_Ball> i have no idea
[11:22:52] <archivist> I was over designing and ending up with a lump too large for the current mill
[11:23:37] <alex_joni> piasdom: that is a latency error reported by RTAI
[11:23:45] <alex_joni> in previous versions it wasn't checked by emc2
[11:23:57] <archivist> currently my 3 axis is too small to make the trunnion parts
[11:24:06] <alex_joni> depending on the god of luck you can have a perfectly functioning machine even with that error
[11:24:19] <alex_joni> although most of the times it would be best to hunt the cause of it
[11:24:38] <piasdom> alex_joni:thanks...but don't know what that means :)
[11:24:50] <piasdom> alex_joni: mill runs great
[11:25:04] <alex_joni> piasdom: I doubt you can feel if th emill loses one step
[11:25:10] <alex_joni> once every few minutes
[11:25:18] <alex_joni> maybe once every few days
[11:25:27] <archivist> I hear when I lose a step
[11:25:41] <piasdom> alex_joni: would it effect the accuracy ?
[11:26:21] <piasdom> alex_joni: and does it reset when i turn the computer off ?
[11:41:08] <alex_joni> I don't understand
[11:41:31] <alex_joni> archivist: you fix clocks for a living, I would suspect you hear such a thing :P
[11:43:53] <piasdom> i just need to know if this error message will effect the accuracy.
[11:46:23] <archivist> alex_joni, and did printer development with steppers :)
[11:47:13] <archivist> piasdom, any stepper losing steps effects accuracy, never fun at a steppers limit
[11:47:20] <archivist> fur=run
[11:47:44] <archivist> heh kb on knee make for tyops
[11:48:01] <The_Ball> archivist, found the specs on the haas tr110 and it only tilts 120 degrees
[11:49:23] <archivist> The_Ball, I look at pics of the haas trunnions for inspiration
[11:49:25] <alex_joni> piasdom: lets say I wouldn't trust it
[11:53:26] <alex_joni> now wth did I find this page: http://hbanich.googlepages.com/28inchf4scopephotosandplans
[11:56:23] <archivist> wont fit your canon camera bag alex_joni
[11:56:57] <alex_joni> you sure?
[12:05:05] <The_Ball> i went down stears to measure how big my mill is and the z height, i don't remember it being this small, i think it has shrunk in this summer heat
[12:05:48] <archivist> I have Z in abundance but miniature X and Y
[12:06:45] <piasdom> alex_joni: how do i edit the stepper limits ?
[12:06:47] <The_Ball> my z is 45cm to the mouth of the mt-3, and the trunnion i wanted to build is 30cm high... :(
[12:06:57] <alex_joni> Cristian CUCUIET: ultima coborire ,seara, putin obosit mi-am dat drumu sageata pe ultimii 30 de m
[12:07:02] <alex_joni> oops..
[12:07:09] <archivist> easy to over make:)
[12:07:20] <alex_joni> http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=1124
[12:07:23] <alex_joni> wrong paste :D
[12:20:46] <alex_joni> wonder where I could get a 1mm hex key
[12:38:11] <The_Ball> archivist, yes easy to over make, but the motors I want to use have a 22cm flange, looks like the bed will not have to come close to center, does it matter if the turn table is over the center line?
[12:38:54] <archivist> I often run the 4th off to make space
[12:43:18] <The_Ball> what do you mean by that?
[12:46:47] <archivist> my travels are very small 90mm by 125 ish so the table is extended and the 4th gets shoved off the side/end where needed
[12:47:02] <archivist> mm by the way
[12:47:58] <The_Ball> ah, i was referring to the cradle being close to the centerline of the rotation point, the haas units have a cradle that sits quite low so the chuck is in the centerline
[12:49:16] <archivist> Im thinking that way now to make better use of space but the scale really is forcing me to think of getting a bigger machine
[12:50:00] <The_Ball> i just made the leap and hit buy it now on two of these units: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=170292174954
[12:52:02] <archivist> looks nice, that would suit me, but cant afford
[12:53:03] <The_Ball> it's quite a streach for me, but i think it should give really good results
[12:54:42] <archivist> Im making a worm and wheel drive system for mine
[12:55:15] <alex_joni> hmm.. seems the key I need is 0.0035" hex key
[12:55:37] <The_Ball> archivist, how can you get minimal backlash with that?
[12:56:03] <archivist> load the worm with a spring system
[12:57:45] <archivist> The_Ball, we also found a ball worm drive system in a patent
[12:58:11] <The_Ball> ball worm drive, interesting
[13:01:23] <The_Ball> these drives use sine encoders, do you know their principal of operation? it's hard to believe that they do two million pulses per rev
[13:02:08] <archivist> dont know at the moment
[13:03:00] <alex_joni> err.. one 0 too many there
[13:03:08] <alex_joni> only 0.035" hex (allan) key
[13:07:25] <archivist> I probably have one, but its here :)
[13:08:32] <piasdom> archivist: can't you just copy and paste and hit send to alex_joni ? :)
[13:08:51] <archivist> I could send a picture
[13:09:39] <archivist> when I need an odd size I grind down a larger one
[13:10:02] <piasdom> i wonder if the ever WILL have teleportation in the far future
[13:11:08] <christel> [Global Notice] Hi all, we appear to have lost our Moscow based client server, and with it approximately 1600 users. We're looking into the issue now and should hopefully have both the server and the users back shortly. Apologies for the inconvenience. Thank you for using freenode and have a nice day.
[13:11:09] <archivist> IBM did some atom placements, so its possible
[13:12:28] <The_Ball> archivist, wouldn't that be duplication, not portation
[13:12:36] <piasdom> thought i heard a few years ago that they did it with a fruit or something...but only a few feet away
[13:13:02] <alex_joni> archivist: I don't think I want to think about grinding one this size
[13:13:21] <The_Ball> piasdom, i can do that with fruit, but it gets squashed when it hits the flor
[13:13:46] <archivist> alex_joni, do it on a flat stone and count the rubs per side to keep even
[13:13:56] <piasdom> hahahhahahaha....but THEY didn't touch the fruit
[13:17:24] <piasdom> i've been searching google and i can't fine how to set my stepper limits...any ideas on what to search for ?
[13:18:45] <alex_joni> piasdom: still the linistepper?
[13:19:26] <piasdom> linistepper ?????
[13:20:30] <piasdom> never heard that term before
[13:20:45] <alex_joni> n/m
[13:20:56] <piasdom> k
[13:20:58] <alex_joni> it was someone else
[13:21:30] <piasdom> o these are sherline steppers
[13:22:11] <piasdom> but thanks
[13:29:42] <alex_joni> piasdom: there are new configs for sherline in the emc2 CVS
[13:29:48] <alex_joni> maybe those are usefull to you
[13:30:12] <piasdom> alex_joni: thanks
[13:36:36] <piasdom> where do i fine this "HOME_SEARCH_VEL = 0 " ?
[13:39:14] <piasdom> i don't have any limit switches..it's just a visual limitation
[13:39:28] <micges> alex_joni: hi
[13:40:29] <micges> can I run-in-place emc2.2.8 in 6.06 ?
[13:46:00] <micges> I think I can but emc refuse to run on that configuration
[13:53:37] <micges> nm, I found problem
[13:53:40] <micges> bbl
[14:51:32] <piasdom> if i take out the home=0.0 and home_offset in my mill.ini, will the blow up my mill ?
[14:52:50] <piasdom> >> home_offset = 0.0
[15:16:10] <jepler_> jepler_ is now known as jepler
[15:30:09] <piasdom> how do i get the cursor out of the message window ?
[15:30:37] <piasdom> i like to use the fast keys and it just type in the window
[15:36:49] <jepler> piasdom: in emc2.2 in both tkemc and axis, the enter key dismisses the window that shows operator messages and errors such as "linear move in MDI would exceed limits"
[15:37:35] <piasdom> jepler:thanks...but i'm using mini
[15:37:42] <jepler> in that case, I dunno
[15:39:13] <piasdom> jepler: thanks
[15:40:11] <piasdom> jepler: can you tell where do i fine this "HOME_SEARCH_VEL = 0 " to edit ?
[15:40:32] <jepler> it's in the inifile in an [AXIS_#] section. I believe it's optional; if not specified, the value 0 is assumed.
[15:41:29] <jepler> but I don't think mini has any way to home an axis anyway
[15:41:40] <jepler> it was designed for switchless machines
[15:41:54] <piasdom> jepler: i don't have any limit switches , so in stepconf i disabled it
[15:42:54] <jepler> (hm, maybe I'm wrong -- ALL ZERO seems to request that all axes home at the same time)
[15:43:05] <piasdom> every now and then i get http://paste.org/index.php?id=4798
[15:44:56] <piasdom> and mini doesn't have a "home switch"
[15:48:00] <jepler> can you tell me what you're trying to accomplish?
[15:48:21] <jepler> you've asked about some specific inifile settings, but I'm not sure what the goal is
[15:48:54] <piasdom> i would like to set my stepper limit
[15:49:23] <piasdom> is that distant the table travels ?
[15:50:18] <piasdom> i'm assuming that is ahy i'm getting that error - http://paste.org/index.php?id=4798
[15:50:34] <SWPadnos> no
[15:50:55] <piasdom> SWPadnos: O
[15:51:09] <SWPadnos> that error says that either your BASE_PERIOD is too fast for your hardware, or your PC isn't suitable for running realtime tasks
[15:51:22] <SWPadnos> hmmm. maybe that's SERVO_PERIOD
[15:51:23] <piasdom> then i've been looking in the woods to find a hammer
[15:51:50] <SWPadnos> but in any case, the error says that your machine goes off into neverland every once in a while, during which time no steps will be output
[15:51:50] <jepler> I've never heard that expression before
[15:52:01] <SWPadnos> me either, but I like it :)
[15:52:13] <piasdom> computer been running emc2 a couple of months now
[15:52:15] <SWPadnos> "looking in the woods to find a toothpick: might be more appropriate
[15:52:37] <jymm> * jymm hands SWPadnos a knife (and a rock)
[15:52:40] <piasdom> you can get a toothpick in the woods...
[15:52:46] <archivist> lokking in the woods and found the wrong haystack
[15:55:02] <piasdom> SWPadnos: my base_period is 75000
[15:55:05] <jepler> bbl, my day job is calling me
[15:55:22] <piasdom> jepler:0 thanks
[15:55:23] <SWPadnos> oh, that's a very long period
[15:55:41] <SWPadnos> the error is actually generated from the servo task
[15:55:45] <piasdom> oh oh
[15:55:51] <SWPadnos> but it doesn't matter
[15:56:08] <piasdom> what's a general number ?
[15:56:12] <SWPadnos> the meaning of the error is that there are issues with realtime latency on that PC
[15:56:16] <SWPadnos> uh
[15:56:33] <SWPadnos> if 75000 is fast enough for the maximum speed you want, then 75000 is a fine number
[15:57:10] <piasdom> i don't know what it does and never changed it before
[15:57:18] <SWPadnos> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TroubleShooting
[15:57:25] <SWPadnos> did you make this config with stepconf?
[15:57:27] <piasdom> should i change it ?
[15:57:31] <piasdom> yes sir
[15:58:04] <SWPadnos> ok, then stepconf chose a number that's as slow as possible while still meeting your requested speeds
[15:58:04] <SWPadnos> so I wouldn't change it
[15:58:52] <SWPadnos> making it slower uses less CPU time, making it faster gives you higher step rates (which you didn't ask for), and better timing resolution
[16:00:00] <piasdom> should i go with 50000 ?
[16:00:20] <SWPadnos> it won't help you
[16:00:23] <piasdom> k
[16:00:41] <piasdom> should i do a latency test ?
[16:00:45] <SWPadnos> sure
[16:01:00] <SWPadnos> but that will only tell you that there is a problem - fixing it is another issue
[16:01:21] <piasdom> how do i do it in hardy....online it shows dapper
[16:01:32] <SWPadnos> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Latency-Test
[16:01:37] <piasdom> thanks
[16:01:44] <SWPadnos> sure
[16:02:53] <SWPadnos> hey unterhausen, add your ASRock already! :)
[16:19:04] <tomp> haha dev mail list discussions about desktop lawnchairs
[16:19:26] <tomp> need a lawnchair icon
[16:19:30] <tomp> :)
[16:33:10] <jymm> If you had to learn-from-scratch today, which would it be? CVS, SUBVERSION, or GIT
[16:34:33] <jepler> of all those, I think only CVS is traditionally written in all-caps
[16:34:40] <jepler> I'd choose git fwiw
[16:35:05] <cradek> I'd ask "for what?"
[16:35:32] <jepler> true enough -- if I wanted to get involved with a project, I'd say "the VC used by that project already"
[16:35:44] <jymm> cradek: for the very first time
[16:35:53] <SWPadnos> "for what" still holds
[16:36:06] <SWPadnos> none of those is very good at managing binary files, for example
[16:36:39] <jymm> SWPadnos: and there is something for binarys?
[16:36:59] <SWPadnos> well, I don't know of anything that's very good actually :)
[16:37:06] <jymm> SMACK
[16:37:28] <jymm> SWPadnos: since when does one do diff's on binarys?
[16:37:42] <cradek> because you can't merge binaries, you need locking. I don't know which vc systems have this
[16:37:44] <SWPadnos> there are programs that do diffs on binaries, so anything that can use an "external differ" could work
[16:38:06] <jymm> SWPadnos: Other than rev engineering, when would this hold true?
[16:38:27] <SWPadnos> schematic, PCB, or other CAD files
[16:38:27] <cradek> usually, vc systems are for source code
[16:38:47] <jymm> SWPadnos: those are typically vector files as the source
[16:38:49] <SWPadnos> yep, which is a bummer
[16:38:54] <SWPadnos> vector?
[16:39:13] <SWPadnos> a schematic is hardly a list of lines and arcs
[16:39:30] <jymm> SWPadnos: or some other text format
[16:39:34] <SWPadnos> no
[16:39:38] <piasdom> ok...how do i stop the latency test in hardy ?
[16:39:46] <SWPadnos> they can be, with some programs, in some versions
[16:40:12] <SWPadnos> piasdom, which latency test? (the HAL one in a window, or the RTAI one in a terminal)
[16:40:29] <piasdom> terminal
[16:40:33] <SWPadnos> ctrl-C
[16:40:36] <piasdom> thanks
[16:40:50] <jymm> SWPadnos: Eh... goony goo goo
[16:40:54] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:41:17] <piasdom> so how do i get the results..the win closed ?
[16:41:25] <SWPadnos> uh
[16:41:45] <SWPadnos> you run in a terminal, and then when you press ctrl-C, you go back to the prompt
[16:42:02] <jymm> SWPadnos: If I was keeping track of say logo revisions, rdiff-backup ftw!
[16:42:05] <SWPadnos> or read the numbers before pressing ctrl-C
[16:42:12] <piasdom> but jitter were in the million
[16:42:20] <piasdom> thanks...i'll do it again
[16:42:35] <SWPadnos> piasdom, if you had jitter higher than low 4-digit numbers, get another PC
[16:42:50] <jymm> SWPadnos: (but most graphics I do are vector to start with =)
[16:42:58] <SWPadnos> err - low 5-digit I mean, like under 20000
[16:43:11] <SWPadnos> vector files are usually binary
[16:43:25] <piasdom> oh oh maybe it's ubuntu 8.04....computer came with mill ?
[16:43:26] <jymm> SWPadnos: Not mine =)
[16:43:27] <SWPadnos> they can be text, but I don't think it's common
[16:43:44] <jymm> SWPadnos: What cha think SVG files are?
[16:43:46] <SWPadnos> what program do you use?
[16:43:56] <SWPadnos> oh, SVG is text? cool
[16:44:05] <jymm> SWPadnos: it's basically XML
[16:44:05] <piasdom> all this is while running vbox
[16:44:22] <jymm> SWPadnos: PS (not EPS) too
[16:44:23] <SWPadnos> in a virtual box or as the host?
[16:44:28] <SWPadnos> I know PS is
[16:44:51] <piasdom> emc2 is in host
[16:44:57] <SWPadnos> ok, good ;)
[16:45:30] <SWPadnos> I don't know how much of an effect virtualbox has on latencies. you may want to try without it running
[16:45:53] <piasdom> it says to run different things to push the comp
[16:46:03] <piasdom> thought that would do it :)
[16:46:18] <SWPadnos> I don't know - it would be interesting to find out
[16:46:25] <SWPadnos> (whether it had a large effect)
[16:46:34] <jymm> SWPadnos: DXF is text too
[16:46:46] <SWPadnos> some computers have SMI issues, which crop up every 64 seconds or so
[16:46:50] <SWPadnos> jymm, or binary
[16:47:24] <piasdom> well...base thread is 160000 while updating winxp in guest
[16:47:56] <SWPadnos> so this is the HAL "latency-test"
[16:48:04] <jymm> SWPadnos: everyone I've came across has been text
[16:48:10] <jymm> SWPadnos: DWG is binary
[16:48:18] <SWPadnos> not the /usr/realtime*/testsuite/kern/latency/...
[16:48:46] <jymm> SWPadnos: Example: http://www.woodworkersworkshop.com/cadfiles/drawings/collins-ent_unit.dxf
[16:48:49] <SWPadnos> jymm, I don't know of any solid modeler that uses a text file format
[16:48:55] <SWPadnos> I've seen dxf
[16:49:19] <SWPadnos> older Protel could use text or binary files for PCBs and Schematics, as could many others of that era
[16:49:41] <SWPadnos> but most of those formats are not used any more
[16:49:57] <piasdom> i ran latency-test in a terminal
[16:49:58] <SWPadnos> for PCBs and schematics, binaries are much much more common than text
[16:50:10] <SWPadnos> for solid models, same thing (AFAIK)
[16:50:11] <jymm> SWPadnos: Oh, and I believe most file format from OpenOffice are text (well zipped text actually)
[16:50:23] <SWPadnos> piasdom, but it popped up another window, right?
[16:50:25] <jepler> files can be "text" and yet nearly useless for traditional diff. For example, when you write lyx files with different versions of lyx, you introduce an incredible number of differences between the files, even though they mean nothing to lyx
[16:50:31] <jepler> same with .glade files in differing versions of glade
[16:50:39] <piasdom> yes
[16:50:50] <SWPadnos> jymm, yes, it's a zip file with several directories and an XML "master" file
[16:51:21] <SWPadnos> there are projects out there with the intent of making an OO diff tool
[16:51:38] <jymm> jepler: sounds more like a drawback of the application itself than anythign else.
[16:51:40] <SWPadnos> piasdom, ok, that's the windowed one, and you need to look at the numbers before closing it ;)
[16:52:01] <SWPadnos> jymm, it is, but it's common
[16:52:05] <piasdom> SWPadnos: took a snapshot
[16:52:08] <jymm> SWPadnos: =)
[16:52:33] <SWPadnos> in a DXF, for example, the order of the text makes no difference to the drawing (in certain cases)
[16:52:33] <jymm> I believe the new flash format from Adobe is now xml based
[16:53:16] <SWPadnos> if you have a couple of POLYLINEs in a DXF, the order of text within each "group" is important, but the order of groups isn't
[16:53:30] <jymm> SWPadnos: Well in the case of PS, it's pretty frickin cool that you can just concat to files to create a new drawing =)
[16:53:36] <SWPadnos> so a text diff is useless for determining differences between models
[16:53:39] <jymm> s/to/two/
[16:53:45] <SWPadnos> sometimes :)
[16:54:16] <SWPadnos> piasdom, or you can write down the numbers :)
[16:54:24] <piasdom> k
[16:54:28] <skunkworks_> disconnecting the encoder from the motor and setting the D only in the pid loop - makes a great variable duty cycle pwm signal. ;)
[16:54:40] <jymm> heh
[16:54:41] <skunkworks_> (by adjusting the encoder)
[16:54:53] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:55:08] <SWPadnos> maybe more predictable by setting only FF0 and changing the command value l)
[16:55:10] <SWPadnos> ;)
[16:55:18] <SWPadnos> or just not using PID at all
[16:55:28] <jepler> skunkworks_: interesting hack
[16:55:56] <skunkworks_> setting the d higher makes it more sensitive ;)
[16:56:43] <jymm> Ok GIT it is....of course it have to be the one that's the most sadistic =)
[16:56:56] <jepler> you could also hook encoder.position to pwm.value and set pwm.scale to change the sensitivity
[16:57:26] <piasdom> SWPadnos: which numbers do i need ?
[16:57:33] <skunkworks_> SWPadnos: then I didn't have to fiddle with the already made hal file.. I am lazy
[16:57:37] <SWPadnos> uh. I'm not sure
[16:57:39] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:58:07] <SWPadnos> piasdom, the numbers from the "max jitter" column
[16:58:09] <SWPadnos> the middle one
[16:58:55] <skunkworks_> I did flunk high power switching again.. The dc reference voltage doesn't equate to actual V/Ohm of the sense resistor.
[17:00:04] <piasdom> SWPadnos: well with vbox base 491328 servo 182750
[17:00:25] <piasdom> SWPadnos: well without vbox base 17347 servo 14115
[17:00:28] <SWPadnos> in the max jitter column?
[17:00:30] <SWPadnos> phew
[17:00:47] <piasdom> SWPadnos: correct
[17:00:50] <SWPadnos> sounds like you shouldn't run vbox while EMC is running
[17:01:00] <piasdom> hahhaha i don't
[17:01:16] <skunkworks_> referencing similar circuits - they run the reference voltage quite a bit higher (2x)
[17:01:35] <piasdom> SWPadnos: but without it...it's still more then 4 digits...not good ?
[17:01:56] <SWPadnos> those numbers are OK
[17:02:01] <piasdom> good
[17:02:32] <SWPadnos> but you should leave the test running for a while (maybe even a few hours or overnight), with somthing like glxgears running
[17:03:23] <SWPadnos> some people have reported higher latencies when they run it for a long time, which they don't see during shorter tests
[17:03:41] <piasdom> SWPadnos: should i change my base_period ?
[17:03:48] <jensor> I am running emc2 on a BP and occassionally get a limit switch error during a run even though it is not any where near a limit switch. The limit switches are connected to the parallel port and are wired normally closed. Has any one had this problem and found a solution? Any suggestions?
[17:03:51] <SWPadnos> there's no need to do that
[17:04:03] <cradek> jensor: it's noise
[17:04:10] <piasdom> SWPadnos: ok..i'll run vbox with it tonight...don't know glxgears
[17:04:22] <SWPadnos> piasdom, no, not vbox
[17:04:44] <SWPadnos> since you know you can't use vbox and EMC2 at the same time, vbox will mask other possible problems
[17:04:46] <archivist> jensor, screen the cables and improve the pull ups
[17:05:01] <SWPadnos> open a terminal or two and type "glxgears"
[17:05:04] <cradek> jensor: check your grounding, maybe add ferrites on power lines if you're using a vfd
[17:05:08] <piasdom> SWPadnos: i don't have glxgears...any suggestions ?
[17:05:09] <SWPadnos> and move those windows around
[17:05:18] <jensor> I thought it might be that and tried triggering it by placing a small jacobs ladder arc generator near the wiring but that wouldn't trigger it.
[17:05:19] <piasdom> SWPadnos: ok
[17:05:28] <SWPadnos> piasdom, do you use AXIS as your GUI?
[17:05:32] <jepler> piasdom: you've established that emc won't run properly with vbox (because issuing steps is interrupted for at least 490000ns, or about 1/2 second). SWPadnos is advising you to run latency-test *without* vbox to find out whether your system has other causes of high latency
[17:05:36] <cradek> jensor: you could also work around it in software by debouncing the limit switch inputs
[17:05:36] <jepler> SWPadnos: no, he said earlier he uses mini
[17:05:38] <piasdom> SWPadnos: mini
[17:05:38] <jepler> so opengl is not important
[17:05:43] <SWPadnos> oh, right
[17:05:47] <SWPadnos> ok
[17:06:05] <piasdom> jepler: i did with and without xbox
[17:06:20] <SWPadnos> jensor, if you add debounce, make sure the limit switches are far enough away from the hard stops that the machine can stop without crashing
[17:06:51] <cradek> it's definitely better to fix it in hardware
[17:07:06] <SWPadnos> maybe open up a firefox session and some openoffice docs
[17:07:11] <jensor> I see .. I suppose the debounce adds a little delay
[17:07:15] <SWPadnos> a PDF or two, that kind of thing
[17:07:23] <SWPadnos> jensor, yes it does
[17:07:23] <piasdom> SWPadnos: will the size of glxgears matter ?
[17:07:31] <jackc> jensor: not neccesarily
[17:07:46] <cradek> yes, debounce adds delay. that's how it works
[17:07:47] <jymm> XBOX360 running EMC - cool! =)
[17:07:53] <SWPadnos> piasdom, I don't think so
[17:07:55] <jackc> jensor: if you can say for certain that another event wont take place for N ms, you can one shot it
[17:08:01] <jackc> cradek: no, only with a low pass filter
[17:08:07] <jackc> cradek: an SR latch deboune add no delay
[17:08:31] <SWPadnos> though the delay may be in BASE_PERIODS, so it wouldn't matter much to the servo thread
[17:08:32] <jackc> *debounce adds
[17:08:32] <jensor> Would a ferite donut on the limit switch lines help?
[17:08:33] <cradek> I'm talking about debounce in software. when you see the signal go high, you wait and check it again a little later to see if it's still high, and only then do you honor it
[17:08:38] <SWPadnos> there could be a delay of one servo period
[17:08:47] <jackc> cradek: ok
[17:09:02] <SWPadnos> debounce in hardware also adds delay
[17:09:10] <jackc> not with SR or oneshot
[17:09:17] <SWPadnos> those aren't debounce
[17:09:20] <jackc> sure they are
[17:09:26] <jackc> they are perfectly valid methods
[17:09:28] <SWPadnos> even a cap across the line adds delay
[17:09:34] <jackc> yes, cuz thats a filter
[17:09:46] <SWPadnos> uh - that's what debounce is (in this context)
[17:09:50] <piasdom> SWPadnos: will run all that tonight..thanks
[17:09:58] <SWPadnos> piasdom, good luck with it
[17:10:11] <piasdom> thanks
[17:11:27] <steves_logging> steves_logging is now known as steve_stallings
[17:11:39] <piasdom> SWPadnos: what is glxgears used for...testing ?
[17:11:59] <SWPadnos> yeah, it shows that the openGL system is working
[17:12:08] <SWPadnos> and it gives a rough approximation of the performance of it
[17:12:24] <SWPadnos> ("it" being openGL software/hardware)
[17:12:53] <piasdom> thanks again
[17:13:13] <SWPadnos> sure
[17:20:59] <jensor> archivist, What do you mean by improve the pull-ups as a solution to killing noise on the limit switch lines.
[17:21:37] <jensor> lower the value?
[17:22:01] <cradek> jensor: is the spindle vfd-operated?
[17:22:05] <jensor> no
[17:22:13] <archivist> helps noise immunity , it pulls the open circuit line harder, the noise source is less able to perturb
[17:22:14] <cradek> ok
[17:22:36] <archivist> lower the value yes
[17:22:50] <cradek> did you try tapping the switches and wiring with something? maybe something's just loose or flaky
[17:22:51] <jensor> ok
[17:22:54] <archivist> and avoid ground loops
[17:23:03] <cradek> if screw terminals, make sure they're tight, etc etc
[17:23:05] <alex_joni> star grounding ftw
[17:23:15] <archivist> star rulz
[17:23:16] <cradek> before changing the electronics (or software) I'd check all that stuff
[17:23:33] <jensor> I'll check out loose wiring and the grounding jcircuit for loops
[17:23:37] <alex_joni> jensor: first question.. was there a (long) time where it used to work better?
[17:24:39] <jensor> Yes it seems the only time I had such a thing happen was occasionally when I applied power to the spindle
[17:29:55] <alex_joni> hmm.. then maybe a ground looping issue
[17:30:52] <jensor> ok will check ground circuit
[17:32:00] <alex_joni> do your spindle cables travel along the limit wires?
[17:32:22] <alex_joni> do any of them have some isolation around them? (wiremesh or similar)
[17:32:54] <jensor> no shielding, not near spindle power lines
[17:34:00] <archivist> are limits isolated from machine ground
[17:34:20] <jensor> yes the limits are isolated
[17:35:13] <archivist> are wires loose or a twisted pair
[17:36:13] <jensor> loose
[17:36:52] <archivist> if loose and its normally closed and unshielded then you have a coil that can have a voltage induced in it
[17:36:52] <jensor> I am sure that twisted would help
[17:37:54] <jensor> strange thing is, it is now happening when nothing else that I detect occurs
[17:45:05] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[17:55:41] <alex_joni> jensor: get some cheapish STP or FTP ethernet cable
[17:55:52] <alex_joni> that one has shielding and twisted pair
[17:57:23] <christel> [Global Notice] Hi all, In about 5 minutes time we'll be taking down one of our client servers for maintenance. The downtime window is one hour but it should take considerably less time. Affected users ~1k. Thank you for flying freenode and have a nice evening!
[18:01:47] <jensor> alex_joni, good idea!
[18:02:10] <jensor> have to run off now, thanks for all the suggestions
[18:16:27] <christel> [Global Notice] Hi again. We've moved leguin to new hardware, it's up and running and linked to the network again. That concludes today's scheduled maintenance and with some luck it's plain sailing from here, until Friday when we move hubbard to a new switch! Big thanks to the University of UmeƄ. Sorry for the downtime and have a continued nice evening.
[18:39:42] <JanVanGilsen> Hi, I have some questions about the mesa products, can I ask them here, or should I mail their support?
[18:40:16] <micges> ask
[18:40:46] <micges> and mail support
[18:41:36] <JanVanGilsen> Well I want to control a 6-joint robot (with emc2)
[18:43:20] <micges> go on
[18:43:47] <JanVanGilsen> all PCI anything I/O cards have 4, 8, 18 channels. can I use only 6 of them and use the other IO's freely?
[18:45:21] <piasdom> on the latency test..which do you look at, the base thread or servo thread ?
[18:46:36] <micges> you mean anythingIO and mesa card at the same time ?\
[18:49:16] <micges> piasdom: for driving steppers base thread
[18:50:45] <piasdom> micges: thanks..as of right now i have 155000 max jitters
[18:50:46] <JanVanGilsen> eg. the 5I20 has the option for a 8-channel servo controller, but I only need 6 of them. Are the pins that are normaly used for the 2 extra servo controllers free to use as in/outputs, (eg. coolant on/of ect..)
[18:51:30] <LesNewell> cradek_: Are you on line?
[18:52:13] <micges> piasdom: something is wrong with your machine realtime
[18:52:24] <piasdom> :(
[18:52:42] <piasdom> micges: thanks
[18:53:01] <alex_joni> LesNewell: he's always online, just not always in front of the terminal
[18:53:15] <piasdom> it jumped to 190000 while taking a snapshot
[18:54:02] <LesNewell> Ok I should have asked if he was in front of his terminal then...
[18:55:21] <micges> JanVanGilsen: you can do that with 5i20
[18:56:14] <JanVanGilsen> wiki: I/O pins not driven by a Module instance revert to general-purpose bi-directional digital I/O.
[18:56:30] <JanVanGilsen> I assume that i need Hostmot2 =)
[18:58:03] <JanVanGilsen> The sevo's need +/-10V signals, both two 7I33 cards or a 7I65 card can provide 8 of them.
[18:58:08] <micges> you assume correctly :)
[18:59:38] <piasdom> do they have the latency test in emc 1 ??
[19:01:43] <JanVanGilsen> It's not clear to me if I can use the 7I33 with all Anything I/O cards or only with the 4I34M, 4I65, 4I68, 5I20 and 7I60
[19:03:21] <JanVanGilsen> The 4I34M and the 7I60 aren't supported by EMC2 and i want a PCI card, does this mean that it only fits with the 5I20
[19:04:59] <micges> those questions are above me :(
[19:06:03] <JanVanGilsen> I'dd prefer to use 2 7I33's because it's cheaper and uses a box connector :)
[19:07:40] <alex_joni> LesNewell: guess not right now :)
[19:08:17] <LesNewell> Nope
[19:08:33] <alex_joni> LesNewell: is this about diameter mode?
[19:08:44] <LesNewell> Yes.
[19:08:57] <alex_joni> then #emc-devel is certainly the proper place (not #emc) :)
[19:09:05] <alex_joni> use /join #emc-devel
[19:09:27] <LesNewell> Cheers.
[19:10:24] <SWPadnos> JanVanGilsen, using the hostmot2 driver, you can specify how many of the available advanced function blocks (like PWM outputs, encoder inputs, stepgens) to enable, and the remaining pins are available as general purpose I/O
[19:11:19] <SWPadnos> however, if you connect e.g. a 7i33 (I think - the 4 channel servo interface) to a connector, you'll have to do something with connectors/Y-cables to get the unused pins off to another generic I/O interface
[19:11:58] <SWPadnos> JanVanGilsen, the 7i33 will connect to any of the supported AnythingIO boards
[19:12:54] <jensor> Is there any way to view earlier discussions that have transpired today while I haven't been signed in?
[19:13:07] <skunkworks_> logger_emc: bookmark
[19:13:07] <skunkworks_> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2009-01-12.txt
[19:13:15] <jensor> thanks
[19:17:50] <JanVanGilsen> SWPadnos: I was thinking of splitting u the flatcable =)
[19:17:59] <SWPadnos> yep, that's one way to do it
[19:18:35] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[19:18:40] <SWPadnos> you can get an opto22-style module rack with only 12 or 16 I/Os on it
[19:19:28] <SWPadnos> which may be good (better than the 7i37 because you can choose input or output for each pin, instead of being forced into using 8 out and 16 in)
[19:19:48] <piasdom> where does win.ini get the file from for the INTRO_GRAPHIC ?
[19:19:59] <JanVanGilsen> My puma cabinet already has a IO mudule, I'm planning on resusing it.
[19:20:15] <piasdom> win.ini _ my mill.ini
[19:20:39] <piasdom> _ = =
[19:21:03] <skunkworks_> btw - dad used the pendant from the puma for the hoist on the gantry crane.. :)
[19:21:13] <JanVanGilsen> The PUMA IO-module has its own relays, fuses, indication leds, ...
[19:21:25] <alex_joni> piasdom: INTRO_GRAPHIC = emc2.gif
[19:21:56] <piasdom> alex_joni: i know...but would like to change the pic
[19:22:03] <fragalot> woot, putting /var/tmp/portage in ram == one HELL of a speed increase
[19:22:41] <alex_joni> INTRO_GRAPHIC = my_freaking_pic.gif ?
[19:22:54] <piasdom> hahaha ok i get it thanks
[19:22:56] <alex_joni> or you mean where the file is actually located?
[19:23:03] <piasdom> location
[19:23:11] <alex_joni> dpkg -L emc2 | grep emc2.gif
[19:23:15] <piasdom> thanks
[19:23:38] <alex_joni> dpkg -L <packagename> gives you a list with all files belonging to a package
[19:24:27] <piasdom> alex_joni: thanks got it
[19:26:48] <jensor> My current configuration has as input pin of the parallel port in series with a 560 ohm resistor to a limit switch which is normally closed to ground of the parallel port. Is the 560 ohm resistor really necessary. Is a pull up needed. If so where do I get power for pull ups without going into the Pc and finding it some where?
[19:27:03] <jepler> piasdom: fwiw, this patch (which is in TRUNK) lets the INTRO_GRAPHIC come from the same dir as the inifile: http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/scripts/emc.in.diff?r1=1.87;r2=1.88
[19:27:25] <piasdom> jepler: thank you
[19:30:52] <piasdom> jepler: can only use gif format ?
[19:32:05] <alex_joni> piasdom: no, experiment with others too
[19:32:27] <piasdom> alex_joni: ok thanks
[19:34:05] <SWPadnos> jensor, you should have a pull-up at the port pin
[19:35:06] <SWPadnos> so the port pin connects to two resistors: one series (560 sounds high for this, but it may not be), and one to +5V (maybe 1k - 4.7k)
[19:35:10] <jepler> piasdom: on my system it appears that png and gif are supported, while jpeg is not.
[19:35:50] <jepler> piasdom: it may be the case that by installing libtk-img that additional formats are supported
[19:36:15] <piasdom> jepler: doesn't like jpg
[19:36:28] <piasdom> jepler: ok...installing ...i hope :)
[19:40:52] <jensor> SWPadnos, As I said before, I am getting noise and falses on the limit switch line (switches normally closed). The inputs seem to recognize the open line as a high without the pull up when the table hits a switch. I suppose I could generate a source for a high, if one is needed, by using one of the pp ports output pins and driving it high.
[19:42:04] <SWPadnos> no, the parallel port is high impedance
[19:42:21] <jensor> I meant as a source for a pullup
[19:42:29] <SWPadnos> you should probably have something like 10-100 ohms in series with the switches, and 1k or so to +5
[19:42:43] <SWPadnos> right, the parallel port is like putting in a 50k pullup, not a nice hard pullup like a 1k
[19:43:06] <jensor> That means I need a 5 volt power supply
[19:43:08] <SWPadnos> the 10-100 ohm resistor is more or less to guard against static discharge damage
[19:43:11] <alex_joni> jensor: USB
[19:43:18] <SWPadnos> you can take it from the PC, but be careful doing that
[19:43:24] <alex_joni> free current limited PSU ;)
[19:43:28] <SWPadnos> a drive power connector would do it too
[19:43:35] <SWPadnos> heh, yeah, USB is better in that regard
[19:43:45] <piasdom> jepler:as you said, it like gif...but mine is HUGH hahahahaha
[19:44:07] <fragalot> to get the 500mA from usb you have to "auth" to the pc first though
[19:44:27] <SWPadnos> it should supply 50 or 100 without any work
[19:44:30] <SWPadnos> mA
[19:44:33] <alex_joni> right
[19:44:38] <alex_joni> you don't need 500mA for this
[19:44:56] <fragalot> true
[19:44:59] <SWPadnos> 5V / 1k = 10 mA
[19:45:03] <SWPadnos> err, 5mA
[19:45:06] <SWPadnos> typo :)
[19:45:12] <fragalot> SWPadnos: PER pin you pull-up :p
[19:45:25] <jensor> x 3 = 15
[19:45:27] <fragalot> I'm using 10k which seems to work just fine
[19:45:33] <SWPadnos> 15 < 100
[19:46:37] <jensor> What would be wrong with using the hard drive power line for the 5 volts?
[19:46:47] <jensor> Is it clean enough?
[19:46:55] <alex_joni> jensor: yup, clean enough
[19:46:57] <SWPadnos> if it shorts out to something, the computer crashes and maybe catches on fire
[19:47:03] <JanVanGilsen> SWPadnos: pins 1 to 24 of the 7I33 are used for 2 joints, that makes a split-up simple
[19:47:05] <SWPadnos> those are high current lines :)
[19:47:16] <alex_joni> but usually hdd psu is inside, has no current limits (not up to 10-20A or so)
[19:48:01] <SWPadnos> JanVanGilsen, yep. I was thinking about usage of the extra pins - using a 12 or 16 I/O card won't waste as much space/cost
[19:49:19] <SWPadnos> ok, time to do some real work. bbl
[19:50:40] <piasdom> jepler: my computer conf deosn't like png as as image
[19:53:08] <jepler> piasdom: huh, I must have been mistaken -- I tried again and mine doesn't either.
[19:53:11] <jepler> *shrug*
[19:56:35] <piasdom> jepler: been looking online for what i need to do with your TRUNK :) what DO i do with it...add it to the top of my mill.ini ?
[19:56:44] <alex_joni> piasdom: n/m
[19:56:49] <alex_joni> probably a bit too complicated
[19:57:03] <piasdom> k
[19:57:10] <alex_joni> you need to download the source and compile for run in place..
[19:57:13] <jepler> piasdom: no, it's a change to one of the source files to emc. if you're not building emc from source, then don't try to do anything with it
[19:57:40] <piasdom> jepler: ok thanks
[19:57:55] <maddash> maddash is now known as Guest18635
[19:58:48] <arghhh> arghhh is now known as maddash
[20:49:48] <jepler> alex_joni: do you happen to have the link to that beer-pouring robot from a few years ago?
[20:53:34] <alex_joni> oh, my
[20:53:44] <alex_joni> not sure I even remember that
[20:53:56] <alex_joni> jepler: doesn't grep on the irc logs bring anything?
[20:54:34] <jepler> alex_joni: I didn't try yet
[20:54:39] <alex_joni> * alex_joni tries
[20:57:14] <alex_joni> jepler: was it something I posted?
[20:59:58] <alex_joni> jepler: oh, I think I remember seeing one at a trade fair
[21:00:08] <alex_joni> it was a motoman if my memory serves me right
[21:00:53] <alex_joni> this is the one I've seen: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/225664/robo_bar/
[21:02:58] <jepler> alex_joni: ow that crashed my firefox
[21:03:04] <jepler> bad proprietary flash plugin
[21:05:59] <alex_joni> jepler: google robobar
[21:06:05] <alex_joni> there are sites with pics
[21:09:15] <jepler> I can't find the one I was thinking of but there sure are a lot of robot beer-pouring videos on the youtubes
[21:10:12] <alex_joni> heh
[21:25:56] <piasdom> anyone know if emc 1 had a latency test ? (it maybe a ubuntu thing)
[21:26:53] <jepler> piasdom: emc1 did not have its own latency test. however, if you're running emc1 on an rtai-based system then it may have the 'kern/latency' test
[21:27:23] <piasdom> jepler: Thank You
[21:28:14] <piasdom> running a couple of hours now and i'm already at 18000
[21:28:30] <piasdom> the company doesn't support emc2 and i know they WON'T help me
[21:28:40] <jepler> the rtai latency test is described here: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TroubleShooting#RTAI_Latency_test
[21:29:18] <piasdom> thanks
[21:30:19] <piasdom> but i have emc2...just asking because i have to call the company and ask if they would help(don't think so)
[21:33:19] <alex_joni> piasdom: you mean sherline?
[21:33:35] <piasdom> i'm sorry...i'm not saying something right...i have emc2 and running latency-test in a terminal, the comp this came from DOES NOT support emc2
[21:33:39] <piasdom> yes sir
[21:34:48] <alex_joni> piasdom: it doesn't hurt telling them you are not 100% satisfied with the version they chose to support
[21:35:06] <piasdom> i would have to go back to debian 4.51
[21:35:18] <alex_joni> it's not debian 4.51 it bdi4emc 4.51
[21:35:24] <alex_joni> to make it even more obtuse :D
[21:35:34] <piasdom> alex_joni..i know and i will tomorrow, but don't like a comp that's like that
[21:35:45] <piasdom> you're right
[21:49:34] <piasdom> the test says not to use FPU...what that :) ?
[21:51:06] <piasdom> and i'm already getting "overruns", that ok ?
[21:51:17] <jepler> no, overruns are bad
[21:51:34] <piasdom> :(
[21:52:09] <piasdom> but this test will not avg the results..i will have to ?
[21:52:39] <jepler> it's not the average that is important, it's the maximum
[21:53:18] <piasdom> getting about 17000
[21:53:27] <jepler> say you're baking cookies, and there's 1 minute during which they are "done" but not yet burned
[21:53:35] <jepler> you always have to check at least once a minute, or sometimes you'll burn your cookies
[21:53:37] <piasdom> just with terminal and ksirc
[21:53:46] <jepler> it doesn't matter if you check on average every 30 seconds but sometimes don't check for 5 minutes
[21:53:50] <cradek> haha
[21:53:51] <jepler> it's the same for controlling motors
[21:54:30] <piasdom> i understand that
[21:55:03] <piasdom> am i looking for the ovl max ?
[21:55:07] <jepler> if you are using the rtai latency test and get anything larger than 0 in the "overruns" column, then IMO that computer is going to burn your cookies
[21:55:35] <piasdom> but i like cookies
[21:55:52] <piasdom> what do i need to fix this ?
[21:56:09] <piasdom> motherboard ? harddrive ? cookies ?
[21:56:17] <jepler> some things are described on that wiki page I mentioned earlier
[21:56:24] <piasdom> k
[21:56:30] <alex_joni> * alex_joni heads to bed
[21:56:34] <jepler> night alex_joni
[21:56:40] <jepler> * jepler is about to head home from the office
[21:57:41] <alex_joni> good night all
[22:03:26] <motioncontrol> good evening.I have one question.With m5i20 card is possible control in +/- 10volt the analog drive for spindle and ceck the zero index with m19 gcode?
[22:04:24] <piasdom> g'night alex_joni
[22:05:30] <piasdom> i'm off also 'night....will run latency all night...thanks all for the help
[22:19:31] <SWPadnos> motioncontrol, what is M19 supposed to do?
[22:21:35] <cradek> spindle orient I bet
[22:21:45] <SWPadnos> yeah, could be
[22:21:56] <cradek> orient + lock?
[22:21:57] <jepler> the internet has several pages that call m19 "spindle orientation"
[22:22:09] <SWPadnos> that would be a nice one to add :)
[22:22:12] <cradek> you could use M1xx and do that in hal
[22:22:22] <jepler> emc doesn't have a "spindle orient" code built in; cradek has a good suggestion, though.
[22:22:48] <SWPadnos> instead of the toolchanger having all the fun
[22:23:12] <motioncontrol> m19 is spindle orientation.The cnc read the mark index encoder and stop the spindle
[22:24:09] <cradek> what is your intended use for spindle orient?
[22:25:16] <motioncontrol> m19 is important for more working: example the tool change or the special working .
[22:26:03] <SWPadnos> spindle orientation can be done in HAL, getting the value to orient to out of G-code is the "hard" part
[22:26:10] <motioncontrol> after the spindle is in m19 the splindle can orientation in angular position
[22:26:19] <SWPadnos> see the demo-mazak config for a relatively complicated example
[22:27:43] <motioncontrol> normaly the cnc read the zero mark not is in drive hardware.Full cnc have this fuction
[22:27:55] <SWPadnos> EMC has this function as well
[22:28:05] <SWPadnos> it's in HAL, the hardware abstraction layer
[22:28:38] <SWPadnos> the hardware needs to read the encoder index mark, not the software
[22:28:50] <SWPadnos> otherwise you have timing and/or accuracy problems
[22:29:31] <SWPadnos> (encoder spins past mark some distace before software notices that the index has occurred, when it zeroes the counter, losing the extra distance traveled)
[22:30:53] <motioncontrol> i have progect my cnc and in my cnc i use read the mark index, after stop spindle and reverse slow velocity at the index mark:www.flexmotioncnc.com
[22:31:21] <SWPadnos> you can do that with EMC, but it's not necessary depending on the hardware
[22:31:27] <SWPadnos> mesa doesn't require it
[22:32:27] <motioncontrol> ok.mesa card can control the spindle with drives in analog +/- 10volt?
[22:32:46] <SWPadnos> yes. the easiest way to do that is probably with a 7i33 card
[22:33:00] <SWPadnos> quad "servo interface" = encoder + pwm/dir to analog +/-10V
[22:33:52] <motioncontrol> ok.in this case whit m3 cw rotation and m4 ccw rotation, m19 spindle orientation and m5 free spindle
[22:34:16] <SWPadnos> the M19 code doesn't exist in EMC2
[22:34:36] <jymm> ZOMG! WHO STOLE IT!!!!!!
[22:34:58] <SWPadnos> you could add it, or use one of the custom M-codes (M100-M199) to tell HAL that you need the spindle to go into "position mode" instead of velocity mode
[22:35:26] <SWPadnos> and you can look at the demo-mazak config for an example of how to accomplish that in HAL
[22:36:14] <motioncontrol> ok.very difficult!!!!
[22:36:34] <SWPadnos> well, it doesn't have to be that hard, but id isn't simple either :)
[22:36:37] <SWPadnos> it
[22:36:52] <SWPadnos> the Mazak is a large complex machine
[22:37:52] <motioncontrol> yes i working for mazak,daewoo,grob and heller machine , but i thing the splindle is not have in emc the all fuction
[22:38:36] <motioncontrol> normaly one splindle is possible move in velocity mode and in position mode
[22:39:22] <SWPadnos> after M19, (a) how does one go back to "normal" mode and (b) how does one specify the orientation in M19 mode?
[22:40:17] <motioncontrol> i don't understand excuse my english.please repeat
[22:40:32] <SWPadnos> ok. two questions:
[22:40:42] <SWPadnos> 1) how do you cancel M19 mode?
[22:40:56] <SWPadnos> 2) when in M19 mode, how do you set the spindle angle?
[22:41:06] <SWPadnos> orientation
[22:41:19] <motioncontrol> the m19 mod calcel with m5
[22:41:26] <SWPadnos> ok, spindle off
[22:41:51] <motioncontrol> m5 = spindle off
[22:42:40] <SWPadnos> yes
[22:43:27] <motioncontrol> m19 is only zero aspindle position , with sinumerik 840d the position spindle named C axis and commad is spos=180 , the spindle autonatic orientation respect at m19 at 180 grad
[22:46:08] <motioncontrol> you have one example of .ini and hal file for command the splindle ?
[22:46:36] <SWPadnos> no. the emc2 interpreter doesn't have words to do that
[22:47:04] <SWPadnos> I wouldn't mind making a specification for it though, in case some kind soul wants to contribute :)
[22:47:20] <motioncontrol> the m3 and m4 set two different pin ok?
[22:47:33] <SWPadnos> 4 pins:
[22:47:52] <motioncontrol> because 4 pin ?
[22:48:00] <SWPadnos> spindle-speed gets a signed number which is the requested RPM (-=M4, +=M3)
[22:48:17] <SWPadnos> spindle-on is 0 for 0 speed or M5, and 1 for any forward or backward speed setting
[22:48:31] <SWPadnos> spindle-fwd is on for M3 and off for M4
[22:48:39] <SWPadnos> spindle-rev is 1 for M4 and 0 for M3
[22:48:48] <SWPadnos> (1=on, 0=off)
[22:49:09] <motioncontrol> ok the m5 exist in emc?
[22:49:30] <SWPadnos> yes, isn't that what you use to turn off the spindle after M3 or M4?
[22:50:20] <motioncontrol> what is the fuction the m5 command in emc?
[22:50:28] <SWPadnos> it stops the spindle
[22:50:36] <SWPadnos> do you have EMC2 installed?
[22:50:38] <motioncontrol> ok
[22:50:50] <SWPadnos> if so, there's a G-code quick reference available in the CNC menu
[22:50:50] <motioncontrol> only m19 not exist ok?
[22:51:00] <SWPadnos> correct
[22:51:38] <SWPadnos> and also the extra pins you'd need to tell HAL/the spindle control that it should be in orientation mode
[22:53:47] <motioncontrol> what is the name the pin for spindle orientation ?
[22:53:54] <SWPadnos> there isn't one
[22:54:04] <motioncontrol> ok.
[22:54:20] <SWPadnos> there is another issue. you can't use C as the spindle axis all the time
[22:54:35] <motioncontrol> in the rigid tapping the emc not control the zero mark encoder ?
[22:54:36] <SWPadnos> so that would have to be settable in the ini file, or maybe it should use S
[22:55:06] <SWPadnos> there are a few levels to rigid tapping:
[22:55:43] <SWPadnos> 1) the encoder counter (hardware or software) keeps track of when the index happens, and zeroes its internal counter at that time. this is controlled by a HAL pin named index-enable
[22:56:20] <motioncontrol> ok
[22:56:24] <SWPadnos> 2) at the start of a rigid tap or spindle-synchronized move, the motion controller waits for an index, then starts axis motion once it's detected
[22:56:58] <SWPadnos> 3) the spindle "position" then becomes the master, with other motion basically geared to that
[22:57:25] <SWPadnos> (it's not electronic gearing because axis motion won't reverse if the spindle reverses, but it's similar)
[22:57:27] <motioncontrol> ok if the emc control the index, is possible write dedicate m100 fuction for spindle orientation ?
[22:57:42] <SWPadnos> the spindle reverse at the bottom of a tapped hole is handled correctly though
[22:58:11] <SWPadnos> you need to study and understand how that can be done, probably using the Mazak files as a starting point
[22:58:20] <SWPadnos> then writing an M100 command should be pretty easy
[22:59:34] <SWPadnos> it will be a little difficult to make M5 turn that mode off though, since the only indication of M5 in HAL is that spidnle-speed gets set to 0 and spindle-on/fwd/rev get set off
[23:00:03] <SWPadnos> (but that should already be true before using orient mode, so there's no state change to detect when another M5 comes along after your M100)
[23:01:06] <motioncontrol> i write the m100 in part program.The m100 code write in classicladder or another location ?
[23:01:42] <SWPadnos> M100-M199 are programs you put in your nc_files directory
[23:01:50] <motioncontrol> ok
[23:01:54] <SWPadnos> they can be C, shell scripts, python - anything executable
[23:03:32] <motioncontrol> is possible control in classci ladder the bolean variable with m101 fuction ' exist one system for comunucation emc with plc?
[23:04:01] <motioncontrol> in more cnc existe the nc plc interface
[23:04:04] <SWPadnos> you can use halcmd commands from your M100 function, so you can set HAL pins to certain values if you like
[23:04:21] <motioncontrol> the nc read ad write in plc and the plc read and write in nc
[23:04:30] <SWPadnos> which includes classicladder inputs
[23:04:49] <SWPadnos> there are some M codes to read or write HAL pins
[23:05:14] <motioncontrol> in classiclader is possible read and write the pin?
[23:05:20] <SWPadnos> M6x I think, but I'm not sure
[23:05:35] <SWPadnos> I'm not a classicladder expert
[23:05:54] <SWPadnos> the classicladder included with EMC2 uses HAL pins for I/O
[23:06:17] <SWPadnos> so if you connect something from the motion controller to classicladder, then classicladder will read it like any other I/O
[23:06:48] <motioncontrol> ok.i studing more in this day because i want retrofit one rambaudi italian machine
[23:07:08] <motioncontrol> but this machine have tool orientation
[23:07:45] <motioncontrol> because have the change tool magazine
[23:08:53] <motioncontrol> you known another emc developer in italian?
[23:09:50] <SWPadnos> I don't know any italian developers
[23:09:58] <SWPadnos> there are a few users, btu I haven't seen them around lately
[23:10:14] <SWPadnos> if you like, you can fly me out there and I'll be an Italian developer :)
[23:11:08] <motioncontrol> i thing the good mounth is agust for beech.
[23:11:28] <motioncontrol> what is your contry
[23:11:30] <SWPadnos> you can't fool me - I know everything is closed in August :)
[23:11:36] <SWPadnos> I'm in the USA
[23:12:29] <motioncontrol> in the next mounth i close one affair for usa , for siemens sinumerik 840d power line cnc control installation line
[23:12:59] <motioncontrol> i thing will good expirence
[23:13:21] <SWPadnos> should be
[23:14:58] <motioncontrol> excusme, in the mazak machine is present the tool change
[23:15:19] <SWPadnos> yews
[23:15:21] <SWPadnos> yes
[23:15:44] <SWPadnos> it's a lot of classicladder, plus some other HAL components
[23:16:12] <motioncontrol> i thing is necessary the zero mark encoder read and stop position
[23:16:35] <SWPadnos> that's done in the classicladder and HAL code now
[23:16:58] <motioncontrol> ok i see the mazak example
[23:17:07] <SWPadnos> it can be assumed that the spindle will be stopped for a toolchange (on a mill anyway)
[23:17:16] <SWPadnos> so the M6 command initiates the spindle orient and tool change process
[23:17:38] <motioncontrol> ok
[23:18:02] <motioncontrol> i want write the code with labview for comunication with halui interface
[23:18:08] <SWPadnos> I'm no expert on the contents of that file, I only know that what you want is in there :)
[23:20:17] <motioncontrol> i studing the metod the classicladder read halui and hal and write the code for labview of national Instrument for create one grafical interface for control emc2
[23:21:07] <SWPadnos> I hate labview, so I'm unlikely to be much help there
[23:22:33] <motioncontrol> ok .in italy is 12.20 pm is very night i want sleep.Good mornig in USA and good 2009 for all people
[23:23:09] <SWPadnos> ciao
[23:23:20] <motioncontrol> ciao