#emc | Logs for 2008-10-28

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[00:29:47] <sjr613> who's ready to watch the phillies tonight?
[01:13:45] <sjr613> i have a question. if i can find a driver board that works for mach2/3, can i use this on linuxcnc effectively?
[01:14:19] <jmkasunich> if it takes step and direction from a parallel port, EMC2 can almost certainly run it
[01:14:35] <jmkasunich> EMC2 can run a lot of other things too - things that Mach can't run
[01:14:52] <sjr613> ok. i wasn't sure
[01:15:22] <sjr613> if i give you the website can you tell me if this looks acceptable or not?
[01:15:28] <sjr613> http://cgi.ebay.com/4-Axis-CNC-Stepper-Motor-TA8435H-Driver-Board-Mach-2-3_W0QQitemZ230303849025QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item230303849025&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318
[01:17:16] <SWPadnos> since it plugs directly into the parallel port, and the only thing Mach can do with a parallel port is generate steps, and EMC2 can also generate steps on a parallel port, I'd bet that EMC2 can drive that board
[01:17:35] <SWPadnos> I have no experience with it though, so I can't tell you if it's worth the money
[01:17:51] <SWPadnos> or if it's approrpriate for your machine
[01:17:52] <sjr613> ok. im just not trying to pay like 300 for that geckodrive you know?
[01:18:10] <SWPadnos> have you seen the G250/G251?
[01:18:23] <SWPadnos> they're supposed to be $50 or so each (USD)
[01:18:59] <sjr613> let me take a look
[01:19:10] <jmkasunich> that thing is quite a bit less - $90 for 4 axes
[01:19:28] <SWPadnos> (I haven't used those either, but I've heard good things about them)
[01:19:38] <sjr613> yeah.
[01:20:08] <sjr613> it actually comes to like 60 some dollars for the ebay item
[01:20:13] <jmkasunich> datasheet for the chip is here: http://www.toshiba-components.com/applications/HomeAppliances/asspmotorcont/StepperMotorController/StepperMotorController.html
[01:20:19] <sjr613> it's 90 australian dollars
[01:20:34] <jmkasunich> I thought maybe you were in AU
[01:21:04] <SWPadnos> as the old saying goes, you (might) get what you pay for :)
[01:21:39] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: don't be a snob
[01:21:47] <sjr613> possibly. but it might work.
[01:22:04] <jmkasunich> granted, the chinglish description kind of puts me off - somehow I doubt you'll be getting much technical support
[01:22:37] <jmkasunich> but that board seems to be in roughly the same power class as xylotex, and about 1/2 the price
[01:22:49] <jmkasunich> differnent chip - xylotex uses an allegro chip
[01:23:16] <sjr613> is there any advantage to the xylotex?
[01:23:21] <jmkasunich> opto-isolation puts it a notch above xylotex
[01:23:50] <jmkasunich> I dunno if xylotex still offers a plain board, they seem to be focused more on complete setups now (with box, power supply, and motors)
[01:23:57] <sjr613> yeah.
[01:24:09] <jmkasunich> they used to have a 3 axis card for a little over $100 - I've had one for a couple years
[01:24:20] <sjr613> yeah.
[01:24:32] <jmkasunich> I managed to kill one channel - a power trace runs close to a mounting hole, and my screw head was too big, shorted it
[01:24:33] <sjr613> i just started to put my machine together the past couple of days
[01:24:38] <jmkasunich> they replaced the dead chip for $27
[01:24:46] <jmkasunich> something tells me these guys won't do tht
[01:24:48] <jmkasunich> that
[01:25:00] <sjr613> yeah. i'll be careful with that.
[01:25:13] <jmkasunich> I do like the optical isolation on the ebay board
[01:25:26] <sjr613> now what exactly is optical isolation?
[01:25:37] <jmkasunich> if they linked to a manual, or described it in clear English, it would be more attractive
[01:25:59] <jmkasunich> isolation means that your motor power circuit and your computer don't share the same ground
[01:26:26] <jmkasunich> so an oops on the power side is much less likely to send power into your parport and fry something
[01:26:36] <sjr613> excellent.
[01:26:45] <sjr613> but i "should" be wary when using this?
[01:27:18] <jmkasunich> when using what?
[01:27:29] <sjr613> the ebay board.
[01:27:47] <jmkasunich> the only concern I see is documentation (or lack thereof)
[01:27:55] <sjr613> ok.
[01:28:21] <jmkasunich> the fact that the guy who wrote the ebay auction is marginally literate in English means the manual will probably suck, if there is one
[01:29:05] <sjr613> ok
[01:29:06] <jmkasunich> I've never purchased an ebay item from overseas, dunno what risk is there, if any
[01:30:34] <jmkasunich> here is another board that uses the same chips
[01:30:34] <jmkasunich> http://www.cnczone.com/classifieds/showproduct.php/product/2245/cat/7
[01:31:24] <sjr613> ok.
[01:31:39] <sjr613> but it is still questionable if emc will make it work?
[01:31:59] <jmkasunich> I am about 99.9% sure EMC can run that board
[01:32:08] <jmkasunich> IF you get decent documentation
[01:32:25] <sjr613> ok
[01:32:43] <jmkasunich> you need to know the required step length, signal polarity, pinout, etc
[01:32:45] <sjr613> no documentation, this doesn't work
[01:32:51] <sjr613> ok
[01:33:12] <jmkasunich> it probably isn't terribly hard to figure out, if you already have some experience with things like this
[01:33:18] <sjr613> somewhat
[01:33:35] <sjr613> i programmed with a usb to parallel converter that was connected to a breadboard.
[01:33:55] <jmkasunich> you will NOT get good results using a USB to Parallel converter
[01:34:10] <sjr613> yeah but it was on a mac so that was my only option.
[01:34:12] <jmkasunich> that should be one of our FAQs - NO USB!
[01:34:26] <jmkasunich> huh?
[01:34:48] <jmkasunich> neither EMC nor Mach runs on a Mac, so I have no idea what you are talking about
[01:35:12] <sjr613> i know, the teacher that taught us how stepper motors work used a mac
[01:35:32] <sjr613> and wrote his own source for controlling stepper motors using codewarrior
[01:35:38] <jmkasunich> oh
[01:35:52] <jmkasunich> that can work, but will have _very_ limited performance
[01:36:16] <jmkasunich> since it isn't realtime
[01:36:29] <sjr613> ok. last question. what the hell is realtime
[01:36:34] <jmkasunich> usefull for education, not for running machine tools
[01:36:37] <sjr613> i read it on the linux cnc homepage.
[01:36:41] <sjr613> no clue what it is
[01:37:02] <jmkasunich> realtime in computers means that when something is supposed to happen at a specific time interval, it is guaranteed to happen
[01:37:22] <jmkasunich> EMC does some things 1000 times a second, other things 20000 times a second or more
[01:37:41] <jmkasunich> ordinary PC programs can easily _average_ 20000 times a second, but they can't guarantee it
[01:38:14] <jmkasunich> maybe the operating system decides to read something from disk, maybe you start surfing the web, etc - all those things can interrupt control and make it miss steps or worse
[01:38:23] <sjr613> ok
[01:38:41] <jmkasunich> but with a realtime kernel (which emc has) those things don't disrupt the "realtime code" which is running your machine
[01:39:12] <sjr613> ok.
[01:39:14] <jmkasunich> Mach plays some tricks on windows to do pretty much the same thing - of course we prefer our way ;-)
[01:39:26] <sjr613> sounds good.
[01:39:27] <sjr613> i'll bbl
[01:39:33] <sjr613> phillies
[01:39:38] <jmkasunich> heh
[01:42:19] <rootard> So what kind of interfaces (other than a parallel port?) can emc utilize efficiently?
[01:43:04] <cradek> pci cards, isa cards, smart parallel port devices
[01:43:07] <tomp4> pci 8255 cards
[01:43:36] <cradek> several options for very nice analog servo controllers for full size machines
[01:44:29] <rootard> what about in the embedded arena? If I bought a board with a breakout area that included GPIO, could I in theory use that?
[01:44:59] <jmkasunich> yes - you'd have to write a driver, but that isn't terribly hard
[01:45:16] <jmkasunich> (if you are the kind of person who does embedded stuff)
[01:45:24] <rootard> :)
[01:46:06] <rootard> I'm interested in CNC but I've been a programmer for a long time.
[01:46:25] <cradek> same for quite a few of us
[01:47:14] <rootard> cool, I'll probably lurk around a bit until I find a direction :)
[01:47:30] <cradek> (wow, my tiny homemade boring bar works better than any of the expensive commercial ones I've tried.)
[01:47:37] <jmkasunich> I'm not that familiar with embedded boards, are there x86 ones that can run Linux _and_ have breakout areas?
[01:47:46] <rootard> yeah
[01:47:54] <jmkasunich> cradek: ground from an endmill?
[01:47:59] <rootard> you can find just about anything these days
[01:48:22] <jmkasunich> true, but if it is targeted at industry, the price is 10x generic PC hardware
[01:48:51] <cradek> jmkasunich: ground from 1/8 square hss
[01:49:07] <jmkasunich> how do you hold it?
[01:49:27] <cradek> just one screw on the top actually
[01:49:41] <cradek> with a 1/4 square under it to make it 3/8 high
[01:49:48] <jmkasunich> ah
[01:50:25] <cradek> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWuOZutnjTk
[01:50:43] <cradek> sadly, this is the best I can do with my camera
[01:51:08] <jmkasunich> spin that turret
[01:51:19] <jmkasunich> I guess it only goes one way?
[01:51:24] <cradek> right
[01:51:36] <jmkasunich> so why not load the tools in the proper order
[01:51:38] <cradek> so you can't put any live tooling on it unfortunately
[01:51:48] <cradek> jmkasunich: that would save time, but it didn't turn out that way
[01:51:59] <cradek> I leave a lot of those loaded - saves lots of work
[01:52:20] <jmkasunich> 3rd op is boring right?
[01:52:29] <cradek> yes
[01:52:32] <jmkasunich> why is it coming out just as slow as it went in?
[01:52:49] <jmkasunich> (everyone's a critic)
[01:52:57] <cradek> g85 boring cycle
[01:53:27] <jmkasunich> never used that, I just use O-loops
[01:53:50] <cradek> with L (cycle repeat) you can do all the passes with one line of code
[01:55:03] <jmkasunich> did I just see it draw the bar out?
[01:55:10] <cradek> yes
[01:55:34] <jmkasunich> partial parting, then stick the tool in the groove, unclamp, move Z, reclamp?
[01:55:41] <cradek> yes
[01:55:46] <jmkasunich> heh
[01:56:54] <jmkasunich> 1st op is facing, right? are you using the cutoff tool for that?
[01:57:11] <cradek> no, it's a face/turn tool, triangular insert
[01:57:47] <jmkasunich> hard to keep track of what's where
[01:59:43] <jmkasunich> I see (going clockise) boring bar, drill chuck, facing/turning, knurling, mystery tool with white circle on top, parting, and ....
[02:00:17] <cradek> last one is a triangle the other direction
[02:00:22] <cradek> for back facing - rarely use it
[02:00:42] <jmkasunich> what is the white-circle one?
[02:00:43] <cradek> the white circle is a stout short upside-down boring bar for large holes
[02:01:37] <cradek> the circle is a dial with .0002 diameter (!) graduations. the holder is split and you can adjust it
[02:01:39] <jmkasunich> the turret is rotated by an air motor?
[02:01:49] <cradek> it was probably for a manual lathe - I just use the tool offset
[02:01:56] <cradek> yes
[02:02:26] <jmkasunich> so not spinning the turret all the way around would save air ;-)
[02:02:33] <cradek> heh
[02:02:40] <cradek> compared to what it all leaks ...
[02:02:46] <jmkasunich> get a vacuum pump, then you can run it both ways
[02:02:55] <cradek> ha
[02:03:08] <cradek> it uses a stop that would only work one way
[02:03:44] <jmkasunich> I noticed you didn't use the part catcher
[02:03:57] <cradek> it's broken
[02:04:07] <cradek> doesn't always retract, and I don't want to crash into it
[02:04:13] <cradek> air solenoid problem
[02:04:23] <jmkasunich> solenoid valve?
[02:04:34] <stustev> neat to watch it run
[02:04:35] <cradek> yeah one of the two-way things
[02:04:50] <jmkasunich> take a photo of the valve one of these days
[02:04:58] <cradek> hi stuart
[02:05:06] <stustev> hi chris
[02:05:09] <jmkasunich> I have an assortment of those things from an old machine I took apart once - maybe I have a suitable replacement
[02:05:12] <stustev> hi john
[02:05:16] <jmkasunich> hi stustev
[02:05:25] <jmkasunich> did you see the HBM model?
[02:05:34] <cradek> jmkasunich: if I can get it apart (not so easy as it sounds, I've tried) I bet I could replace all the O rings and clean it up, and it would work
[02:05:38] <stustev> yes - looks a LOT like the G&L
[02:05:54] <jmkasunich> don't most HBMs look pretty similar?
[02:06:01] <stustev> yes
[02:06:18] <jmkasunich> I based it on a photo of a cinci-gilbert
[02:06:23] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/pics/gilbert-with-part-2662.jpg
[02:06:40] <jmkasunich> the cinci is a lot simpler than the G&L
[02:06:55] <jmkasunich> no hydrostatic bearings or hydraulic balancer - much less plumbing and pumps
[02:07:07] <stustev> yes - less problems
[02:09:21] <jmkasunich> they do some pretty precise work with it
[02:09:23] <stustev> cradek: I am ready to come to Lincoln to work on the BP - when do you want to do it?
[02:09:54] <stustev> they are all good machines
[02:10:10] <stustev> simple, strong, accurate
[02:10:39] <jmkasunich> it seems amazing that it can take serious cuts with a quill that long
[02:10:51] <cradek> stustev: I need to save my pennies and buy another vfd and another whole mess of mesa stuff...
[02:11:29] <stustev> I may have the cinci running before that
[02:11:36] <cradek> stustev: also, you'd probably have to sneak in here and break it, to get me started
[02:11:44] <stustev> can do
[02:11:45] <jmkasunich> that can probably be arranged
[02:11:50] <cradek> I sure hope so - you've got to be close
[02:12:20] <stustev> I finally got the linear axes comped yesterday
[02:12:25] <jmkasunich> speaking of the cinci - any news on the recent following errors?
[02:12:37] <cradek> heh, using EMC, I could sell my tapmatic and get a vfd :-)
[02:12:55] <stustev> random - had one this morning on the Z axis - mostly X though
[02:13:17] <stustev> I am comping A and B now
[02:13:25] <jmkasunich> that's disturbing (the errors)
[02:13:27] <cradek> sure your lube is working?
[02:13:50] <stustev> yes - I even pulled the way covers to check that - oil everywhere
[02:14:00] <stustev> that was my first thought
[02:14:26] <jmkasunich> you should set up halscope and trigger on the fault, then minimize the halscope window and go about your business
[02:14:37] <stustev> I am sure we can find it once we concentrate on it - will do
[02:14:39] <jmkasunich> that way if it happens again, you get some info to troubelshoot with
[02:14:52] <dmess> i still dont have MY VFD running... its powered up.. but the wrong malual leads to "0"
[02:15:25] <stustev> the laser tracker is a very sensitive tool
[02:15:41] <stustev> I had it on the same pad as the machine (not on the floor of the shop)
[02:15:52] <jmkasunich> is that what you are using to do the comp?
[02:16:11] <stustev> a fork truck drove by - the tracker move .004 and back - then it was .0005 off
[02:16:12] <dmess> probably too fine
[02:16:30] <stustev> yes - an API laser tracker
[02:16:35] <jmkasunich> squishy floor
[02:17:18] <stustev> yes the floor is squishy but the tracker was on the same 3 foot thick concrete pad as the machine (separate from the floor)
[02:18:08] <jmkasunich> hmm, that isn't very reassuring
[02:18:15] <stustev> was able to work on Sunday (no one else in the shop)
[02:18:18] <dmess> i went to 1 shop the inspector on the laser measuring machine was 702 lbs (no word of a lie... i roleed my 28" waist around him 5 times)
[02:18:28] <stustev> the tracker repeated very close then
[02:19:19] <dmess> he would lean on the part and the laser would show it... they called him TINY
[02:19:43] <stustev> I told the guy that runs the tracker that I don't like his tripod - I have to focus my frustration on something - the tripod is a good target
[02:20:51] <dmess> it needs to be ROCK solid... for reliability and as9100 stuff
[02:21:11] <stustev> EMC's comp works very good - got the Y comped the first time - took two tries on the Z - all axes position within +-.0005 both directions
[02:22:07] <jmkasunich> dmess: this guy is probably named Tiny too: http://www.truetex.com/clausing8540c.jpg
[02:22:13] <dmess> is it a cam tripod... or a 4 point surveyer tipod
[02:22:13] <stustev> dmess: I had the tracker on the same pad as the machine - I had 75 lbs of shot hanging on the tripod - it still was unstable with anything at all happening in the shop
[02:22:45] <stustev> three point tripod from API - designed and built by the tracker manufacturer
[02:22:51] <dmess> i believe it
[02:22:54] <jmkasunich> (note the normal sized guy behind the crane with the white hat)
[02:24:39] <dmess> laser IS for big parts
[02:25:43] <stustev> It worked great for collecting and verifying the comp on the machine - set it up once - check all the axes
[02:26:01] <stustev> that big guy is ballast
[02:26:32] <dmess> LOL
[02:26:32] <jmkasunich> there's a machinery moving story to go with that pic: http://www.truetex.com/moveclausing.htm
[02:26:37] <jmkasunich> could have ended badly
[03:49:14] <Fisia> cool
[03:49:26] <Fisia> ubuntu EMC2 is a cool stuff
[03:49:57] <SWPadnos> yes indeed
[03:54:57] <Fisia> :)
[04:21:03] <Fisia> ive been emc-devel
[04:21:34] <Fisia> since all they go home, can i ask here?
[04:22:59] <Fisia> im trying to develope a time-machine...
[04:23:15] <Fisia> hehehe.. not that machine, the way alike RTAI
[04:53:15] <Fisia> sorry i posting this, i need comment, bad or good would be okey:
[04:53:16] <Fisia> <Fisia> i wonder if this 100k pulse/sec (100.000 pulse/sec) i can convert to a MEM, so there is no calc needed
[04:53:16] <Fisia> <Fisia> at machine work
[04:53:16] <Fisia> <Fisia> u see what i mean...
[04:53:16] <Fisia> <Fisia> 1 pulse require 1 combination of stepper step, u see
[04:53:16] <Fisia> <Fisia> or multiple by existed axis
[04:53:18] <Fisia> <Fisia> :)
[04:53:20] <Fisia> <Fisia> can it be workin?
[04:53:22] <Fisia> <Fisia> if these true, we can lose RTAI a bit
[04:53:24] <Fisia> <Fisia> the question is, how many combination of step that could be loaded into that MEM... mean: HOW many step of stepper required by stepper in 1 G-CODE Project, at most Many?
[04:53:27] <Fisia> <Fisia> 1 megabyte?(easyest) 1 gigabyte? need hard work
[05:18:52] <toastydeath> pew pew pew lasers
[06:11:28] <Fisia> http://www.todopic.com.ar/foros/index.php?topic=21154.140
[06:11:30] <Fisia> 3d
[06:24:00] <toastydeath> 8d
[06:29:27] <Fisia> haha
[06:29:44] <toastydeath> oh oh oh wait
[06:29:47] <toastydeath> 8d^2
[06:29:50] <toastydeath> WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW
[06:30:06] <Fisia> damn
[06:30:10] <Fisia> good
[08:34:44] <Fisia> where can i download AXIS ...without accessing CVS
[08:35:31] <Fisia> please
[09:24:26] <archivist> alex_joni, I use office(spreadsheet) for calcs and workings out so would miss that sort of thing
[09:25:49] <alex_joni> archivist: sorry?
[09:32:43] <alex_joni> you referr to OO missing from the LiveCD?
[09:33:12] <archivist> yes
[09:33:40] <archivist> as long as a spreadsheet is there
[09:33:40] <alex_joni> well.. the default LiveCD will stay as it is
[09:34:00] <archivist> just "voting" :)
[09:34:08] <alex_joni> colin_ is trying to make a smaller one .. doesn't mean we'll stop using ours :P
[09:34:45] <archivist> I use it when building gcode
[09:35:10] <alex_joni> no-one blames you really
[09:36:08] <archivist> I hope for an added cam and cad when good easy to use stuff eventually gets finished
[09:37:22] <archivist> I can see different uses though, production v the hobbyist
[09:38:09] <archivist> mach3 crowd needs simple widgets as well
[09:38:52] <archivist> so add the python stuff of the wiki to a unified whole
[10:04:20] <fenn> it's not like you can't download extra packages
[10:05:28] <archivist> for a user in his workshop down the garden without internet
[10:56:11] <Kohlswa> has anyone attempted to convert an aktiv digital driven machine to run with emc ?
[11:01:48] <piasdom> g'mornin
[11:02:23] <alex_joni> Kohlswa: details :)
[11:15:10] <Kohlswa> oh, well aktiv digital is semi automatic, i think thay have liniar scales for positioning and ether steppers or servos for driveing the axis but your limited to tell it where to go and then you have to give it a new command manualy
[11:16:39] <Kohlswa> "An "aktiv digital" machine is a machine where one can program an axis to automaticly move to a designated point, where it will stop exactly." from http://www.dialog5.com/aktivdigital.htm
[11:19:15] <archivist> looks a candidate for a sensible upgrade
[11:21:40] <Kohlswa> well the machine ive seen for sale isnt a deckel but a tos but thay have the a simular shape and most likely the inner workings of the electronics are the same.
[11:24:16] <Paragon> Can anyone get to http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/ ?
[11:24:45] <archivist> i get a refused
[11:25:49] <Paragon> Appears to be down. I was not sure if it was my works proxy causing an issue.
[11:25:51] <BigJohnT> I get no route to host
[11:34:59] <fenn> Kohlswa: deckel is a good brand.. if TOS is anything like it, i'd say go for it
[11:35:29] <fenn> Kohlswa: you'll probably have to rip out a lot of electronics and buy some mesa cards + accessories
[11:36:26] <fenn> there is a sort of cult following for the "dialog" user interface, which i think is why many people try to fix the original control
[11:37:15] <Kohlswa> the dialog 5 project is intresting
[11:37:53] <fenn> at one point there was talk of making a frontend to emc that resembled dialog
[11:40:39] <fenn> on practicalmachinist.com
[11:41:03] <Kohlswa> that would been intrestig, i havent worked on the fp series deckels but ive used deckelmaho dmc
[11:44:21] <Kohlswa> in regards to the aktiv digital tos i think i might wait, seems like alot of companys will go under here and i should be able to get something with a decent controler.
[11:45:19] <fenn> anyone know how to search gmane?
[11:46:01] <fenn> duh.. search.gmane.org
[11:46:07] <Kohlswa> :)
[12:04:19] <archivist> hmm an item for the brave emcer ebay 170273505148 brown and sharp cam auto
[12:11:42] <fenn> so we can use emc to cut out cams for it? :)
[12:13:33] <archivist> would be a conversion job, make a work all hours machine
[12:14:33] <archivist> we have a sliding head cam auto here I will cnc if I get ownership of
[12:15:30] <archivist> this beast http://www.archivist.info/cnc/works2008/P1010226.JPG
[13:13:07] <anonimasu> hmm
[13:46:46] <Paragon> Just tried to compile the pluto-servo verilog project and am getting the following error. (No changes have been made to the source which was downloaded from cvs) Error: Cannot find legal location for node "pwm0[10]" of type logic cell
[13:50:06] <Paragon> Oh this is within quartus II btw at the route and fitting stage.
[13:53:59] <SWPadnos> hmmm - what chip is selected for the project?
[13:58:50] <Paragon> Looking at the devices tab the device family = ACEX1K and EP1K10TC100-3 appears to be selected.
[14:00:41] <Paragon> Oh I am using quartus version 8 build 231 in case that helps.
[14:01:39] <Paragon> The error is for all the pwm stuff ..
[14:02:59] <SWPadnos> well, it doesn't help me ;)
[14:04:30] <SWPadnos> ifyou did a full build and got an error, then I'm out of ideas for now (I don't have a working Quartus install on this machine)
[14:05:22] <jepler> I have not built the pluto-servo project lately but I am very confident that the shipped verilog files match the shipped firmware.
[14:08:29] <Fisia> hi
[14:08:54] <jepler> Fisia: welcome
[14:09:08] <Fisia> :)
[14:09:18] <alex_joni> hello
[14:09:52] <Fisia> hei, can i ask, where i can download AXIS without using CVS
[14:10:33] <jepler> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#Other_ways_of_getting_the_source_code
[14:11:02] <Fisia> thanks, my honour meeting you developers
[14:20:33] <SWPadnos> Fisia, you asked (sort of) how many steps there might be in a G-code program
[14:20:50] <SWPadnos> the answer is "a lot"
[14:21:04] <SWPadnos> there are G-code programs that run for 24 hours or more
[14:21:20] <Fisia> :)
[14:21:24] <Fisia> im listening
[14:21:50] <SWPadnos> a high resolution machine may have 40000 to 200000 steps/inch
[14:22:04] <SWPadnos> and there could be literally miles of motion in a single program
[14:22:14] <Fisia> how about MEM that look alike Sandwitch ...overlaping over and over limitless
[14:22:16] <SWPadnos> (that would be a big program, but it's not impossible)
[14:22:38] <Fisia> (still listening)
[14:22:59] <SWPadnos> in any case, I think the question you wanted to ask was something like "if I pre-calculate all the steps, does that reduce or remove the requirement for RTAI?"
[14:23:01] <SWPadnos> and the answer is no
[14:23:24] <SWPadnos> regardless of how you calculate the steps, you still have to deliver them to the motor driver in a timely manner
[14:23:31] <Fisia> YES, oh please explain... :)
[14:23:52] <SWPadnos> so whether you're replaying a precalculated path or calculating on the fly, you still need a realtime OS
[14:24:27] <Fisia> :)
[14:24:59] <SWPadnos> you can use specialized hardware to reduce the realtime requirements on the PC though
[14:27:07] <Paragon> I downloaded the tarball from http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/emc2/src/hal/drivers/pluto_servo_firmware/ note the pluto-stepper source compiled with no errors.
[14:28:37] <Fisia> the question after that, would be..., how to communicate the hardware to realtime-EMC2, or in witch files in EMC2 source, this is what i need also to figure it
[14:29:01] <Fisia> i mean'specialized hardware'
[14:30:12] <Fisia> since i still need time to study emc2, all your comment before, fasten my study..
[14:31:23] <Fisia> :)
[14:31:30] <SWPadnos> look at the linuxcnc.org website and the wiki for hardware support, then download the source and look at the hardware drivers (in src/hal/drivers/)
[14:34:11] <Fisia> 40k step/inch... if machine is so fast(the limit is the feed rate of hard metal can mill/eat), how many inch CNC can do for 1 sec?
[14:34:12] <Paragon> Fisia: I have a denford cnc lathe that uses dos software that sends axis / position information via rs232 to a controller the controller then calculates step / dir pulses which are driven to the stepper motors. EMC2 does not act in this way although I am new to it myself so I could be incorect.
[14:34:42] <Fisia> :) interresting
[14:35:11] <jepler> this is a page on the wiki I recently started to explain the kind of hardware designs that emc works with: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Emc2HardwareDesign
[14:35:55] <jepler> see particularly 2.1 "no buffering" and 2.3 "fairly fast" -- they are relevant to this discussion
[14:36:16] <jepler> Paragon: unfortunately it appears you're right -- pluto_servo won't build in the current version of quartus2
[14:36:50] <SWPadnos> Fisia, I have a machine which will have 40000 steps/inch, and will be able to move 3-4 inches/second
[14:36:54] <Paragon> Rather EMC2 if using the the para port directly runs a fast thread that has priority this sends step / dir pulses from the pins of the para port. These pulses must be sent in synce'd manor to insure that all axis work in harmony when they shoul work. Hence the reason for realtime kernel.
[14:37:11] <Fisia> (im listening)
[14:37:30] <SWPadnos> but I'll be using specialized hardware, not software step generation
[14:37:44] <SWPadnos> that works out to 120000 to 160000 steps/second
[14:37:50] <Paragon> jepler: Thanks for the confirmation.
[14:39:50] <Paragon> That leads me to another question that may be connected with this discussion. If one was to use the pluto-p or another FPGA based card to drive servo / steppers is there still a requirment for EMC2 to run in RT?
[14:39:57] <jepler> Paragon: yes.
[14:40:13] <SWPadnos> but you don't need a fast thread
[14:40:21] <Paragon> Right...
[14:40:30] <SWPadnos> so the PC can be relatively bad for RT latency and still work OK
[14:40:30] <Fisia> :)
[14:40:34] <jepler> those all work by sending velocity commands. imagine that you send a velocity command of 4in/sec and then get a delay of 10ms in the pc instead of the desired 1ms before sending the next velocity command
[14:40:51] <jepler> well, if the next velocity command would ahve been 3.9in/sec (start decelerating), you just missed it and ruined the work
[14:41:11] <Fisia> (160k multiply by 4inch /sec)
[14:41:12] <cradek> to prevent that, those devices all (?) have watchdogs that stop the machine if they don't get an update every couple ms
[14:42:47] <SWPadnos> it's possible, though I believe unimplemented, for an FPGA based step generator to work on positions instead of velocities
[14:43:00] <jepler> you *could* do a cnc system based on different principles (for instance, have a large buffer of points sampled at 1ms separation in time, feed up to 10 seconds to an external box, and have that external box generate velocity commands with realtime guarantees), but that is contrary to the design of emc.
[14:43:34] <Fisia> we always hang on HOW many uC we must use is 1 uC, not as many as it get... 1 uC writing dump data from PC to 1st MEM, and other uC dump 2nd to the CNC
[14:43:51] <SWPadnos> ?
[14:43:53] <Fisia> 2nd MEM
[14:43:56] <jepler> changing the device data from velocity to position (alone) doesn't help. you have to introduce buffering. but when you do that, it's not emc anymore.
[14:44:06] <Paragon> I see. Where as the dos based program I use on the lathe (EMC conversion on the cards) send multiple commands to the controller that then buffers them and then executes them. Gets more commands from PC > bufffers > execute.
[14:44:23] <Fisia> FPGA would not needed..not required
[14:44:36] <Fisia> uC as cheap as 2 dolar
[14:44:50] <cradek> Paragon: a program running in DOS has pretty decent realtime guarantees
[14:45:13] <cradek> lots of DOS software generates step pulses directly, for instance
[14:45:26] <Fisia> i agree
[14:46:13] <Fisia> if im correct, uC has better Interrupt ...
[14:46:43] <Fisia> uC design as KISS, Keep It Simple and Stupid
[14:47:18] <SWPadnos> small microcontrollers like the PIC and AVR have very predictable interrupt response, as long as you only have one active interrupt handler
[14:47:38] <Paragon> cradek: I agree with RT dos. However the old denford software just uses the pc as display, load and command console the traj etc are then streamed via rs232.
[14:47:56] <SWPadnos> once you add multiple interrupts (for instance, a PWM reload interrupt, a timer interrupt, and a serial receive interrupt), it gets less predictable
[14:48:14] <tomp> wouldn't a dos program stil have latency issues ( isnt that dependant on hardware platform)
[14:48:27] <Fisia> yup...SWPadnoss i agree
[14:48:27] <SWPadnos> a DOS program may not use interrupts at all
[14:48:42] <Paragon> I think dos has direct control of the para port ... Right?
[14:48:42] <cradek> tomp: possibly, but hardware was much less unfriendly back then.
[14:48:45] <SWPadnos> they can use loops instead because it's a single-tasking system
[14:49:22] <Fisia> and what IF we Split that JOB to alot of uC...it would be mean comeback to predicable again
[14:49:25] <Fisia> |:)
[14:49:39] <Fisia> the bridge is MEM
[14:50:07] <SWPadnos> sounds a bit overcomplicated to me
[14:50:16] <Fisia> RS232 on DOS mean NO REALTIME
[14:50:28] <archivist> Fisia, there is a system out there like that
[14:50:39] <Paragon> So how does Mach fit into all this? Someone mentioned on some forum it was base on some EMC is this true?
[14:50:58] <Fisia> they dump data to RS232 and uC at the end of theline would do the Realtime
[14:51:01] <alex_joni> Paragon: the interpreter (rs274ngc) was developed by NIST
[14:51:10] <archivist> multiple pic with timers and watchdogs and timed moves
[14:51:11] <SWPadnos> yes, Mach was based on the early EMC public domain code
[14:51:15] <jepler> Paragon: the nist emc is public domain. some people say that parts of the public domain nist emc are incorporated into mach, but of course nobody outside of mach could know for sure if it's true
[14:51:17] <alex_joni> it was PD code after that, and both EMC/emc2 and Mach used that code
[14:51:42] <Fisia> archivist , it must be build ed
[14:51:47] <jepler> (there was certainly evidence of that as recently as two years ago; their gcode interpreter had some specific arc-related behavior that I recognized from emc)
[14:51:49] <Fisia> by our
[14:52:56] <Paragon> Can they close the code off like that if indeed they are using EMC code with in a commercial product?
[14:53:10] <alex_joni> Paragon: if it's based on emc1 they can
[14:53:17] <Fisia> :)
[14:53:56] <jepler> Paragon: yes and no. Like I said, there is old code which is public domain. We incorporated that into emc2 and placed Free Software licenses (GPL, LGPL) on the result. The GPL software can't be taken and incorporated into a closed product.
[14:54:18] <jepler> Mach (possibly) took the public domain software and incorporated it into their closed product.
[14:54:46] <archivist> Fisia, look at this guys http://www.jrkerr.com/pscmc.html he does what your thinking of
[14:55:28] <Paragon> Oh OK that explains it... I must admit I am not up to par with regards to all of the different licences and there underlying meaning / intent.
[14:57:20] <Fisia> (i ll go to see...) :)
[14:58:53] <archivist> and iirc high end mitsubishi controllers talk to each other so they can react to each others load
[14:59:01] <jepler> sure -- nobody's saying that these kinds of systems are impossible. I just think that they are so radically different from emc that starting with emc2 and hal and trying to fit it to these completely different systems is going to waste more time than starting from scratch (or mabybe taking a few selected parts from emc, such as the gcode interpreter, and ignoring the rest)
[14:59:49] <Paragon> Not wanting to shoot myself here or for you guys to shoot me but..... What has the most user base EMC2 - Mach. The reason I ask this is that on forums I tend to see a lot of people pipe up for Mach one such forum is Denfords. They have never come across EMC2 although I am trying to educate.
[14:59:57] <archivist> * archivist not reinventing said wheel :)
[15:00:45] <archivist> Paragon, I thing we need to hit the UK mags as well
[15:01:09] <The_Ball> we don't need no stinking forums ;) mach is windows based and this familiarity eases a lot of users into it
[15:01:27] <Paragon> Could be right there archivist
[15:01:29] <jepler> Paragon: beats me. we don't have any meaningful way of tracking total number of users.
[15:01:43] <SWPadnos> Mach probably has about twice as many users as EMC, but that's a wild-ish guess on my part
[15:01:51] <Fisia> but http://www.jrkerr.com/pscmc.html its a product, not public domain
[15:01:52] <jepler> being a commercial business, mach has more of an interest in promoting itself to end users than we do
[15:02:11] <SWPadnos> I'm estimating the EMC user base at 5000-7500, and I think Mach recently topped 10000 (in the last couple of years)
[15:02:12] <Fisia> :/
[15:02:13] <Paragon> The_Ball: Your also probably right. I bet some of these folks have probably never heard of Linux let alone EMC2....
[15:02:17] <jepler> (emc won't get more useful to me just because we double the number of customers)
[15:02:23] <archivist> model engineer, model engineers workshop, and engineering in miniature, they all seem to have worlwide coverage
[15:02:41] <SWPadnos> Artsoft advertises, we don't
[15:02:47] <The_Ball> jepler, good point, double the number of developers is a different matter though
[15:02:50] <jepler> (no dollars will find their way into my pocket no matter how many full-page ads I put in trade rags pointing people at this free software)
[15:03:09] <SWPadnos> you could advertise it and charge for media and support though ;)
[15:03:29] <jepler> SWPadnos: but then I'd have people who can reasonably expect me to provide them support
[15:03:40] <Paragon> Yep... like Red Hat AS support etc....
[15:03:41] <SWPadnos> sure, but they'd have to pay you first ...
[15:03:43] <Fisia> :)
[15:03:48] <archivist> jepler, unless you do implementation/pluto stuff to earn off the back
[15:04:13] <The_Ball> * The_Ball is having problems rebuilding his 8x750 RAID5
[15:04:30] <jepler> archivist: (I don't see any money from pluto .. I'm not the one who manufactures/sells the board)
[15:04:58] <archivist> make your own better one then :)
[15:04:59] <jepler> (I just found it and it became a project to write the firmware and emc drivers)
[15:05:11] <jepler> hah!
[15:05:14] <archivist> hehe
[15:05:45] <jepler> I'd have to beat mesanet.com's products -- their parport board has higher capacity and much better build quality than pluto-p already.
[15:06:01] <Paragon> jepler: what would be nice is to allow EMC to comunicate via USB to an FPGA card. I think Mack has USB support right?
[15:06:07] <The_Ball> jepler, and i thank you for that effort, i haven't gotten around to plugging that pluto laying on the bench into the computer yet though
[15:06:10] <jepler> Paragon: I don't know, I have never used mach
[15:06:38] <jepler> (except over steve stalling's shoulder at cnc workshop)
[15:06:48] <Fisia> if i want to build pluto, can u reffer the sites?
[15:06:51] <Paragon> Me neither but I looked at the specs the other week
[15:06:59] <archivist> Paragon, the tracjoctory planner will be exported for mach to do that and there is something (they mentioned the other day)
[15:07:06] <Fisia> i need to know more about pluto
[15:07:35] <archivist> Paragon, they will be using a third party system
[15:07:40] <jepler> Fisia: the pluto-p board is a terrible, flaky product. you can buy it from knjn.com.
[15:07:50] <Paragon> http://www.knjn.com/board_pluto-P.html http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.1/html/hal/pluto_servo.html
[15:08:31] <jepler> Paragon: relative to http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Emc2HardwareDesign sections 2.1 and 3.2, I believe that mach is built on a buffering model when it comes to usb motion control
[15:08:43] <jepler> THESE KINDS OF SYSTEMS ARE ENTIRELY POSSIBLE, THEY'RE JUST NOT EMC2
[15:08:59] <Fisia> :)
[15:09:02] <alex_joni> nor do we want them to be
[15:09:20] <jepler> there may be room for those kinds of systems in the free software world, and I don't discourage anyone from working on one, but it
[15:09:33] <Paragon> Sure .... It's just not in the scope of EMC2.
[15:09:39] <jepler> 's a mistake to start breaking the fundamental properties of emc just so that somebody can hook a doesn't-exist-yet usb box up to linux
[15:10:31] <cradek> my personal opinion is that a project is more interesting if there's an ADVANTAGE to doing something a new way. For buffered devices I see only disadvantages. The fact that some other product does it, and has those disadvantages, is not in my opinion a reason to also do it.
[15:11:00] <Fisia> usb not for today
[15:11:10] <Paragon> jepler: What about the possible future of the para port? I have seen desktop PC's that do not have them. Could this be a problem in the future?
[15:11:20] <SWPadnos> the advantage is that the USB interface is unlikely to disappear any time soon, and it exists on roughly 100% of all computers these days
[15:11:46] <alex_joni> Paragon: emc2 isn't limited to parport
[15:11:50] <jepler> Paragon: I've taken care to buy linux-compatible PCs for about 15 years now; the idea of taking care to find an emc-compatible PC is not an alien idea to me
[15:11:51] <SWPadnos> another advantage is that it removes a lot of realtime burden from the PC (like other hardware also does)
[15:12:05] <cradek> SWPadnos: I agree - but that's not important to me I guess.
[15:12:07] <SWPadnos> but there are a lot of complexities and disadvantages that outweigh those two advantages, IMO
[15:12:10] <alex_joni> for homebuilt machines and small mills it's not a problem to add a parport card
[15:12:26] <cradek> parallel ports come in PCI and now PCI-E and probably will for some time
[15:12:37] <Fisia> how about PCI stuff to port stuff, u can use 8255
[15:12:38] <SWPadnos> did anyone test a PCI-E parport card yet?
[15:12:40] <Fisia> IC
[15:12:41] <alex_joni> and for serious machines a servo card i sprobably best to use anyways
[15:12:48] <SWPadnos> JonE and I were going to, but never got to it at the CNC workshop
[15:12:54] <cradek> and I imagine there are currently more EMC-capable computers on the planet than there are people
[15:13:01] <archivist> jepler, non exixtant http://ncpod.oemtech.com/
[15:13:02] <Fisia> servo card is the way tooooo expensive
[15:13:16] <alex_joni> archivist: that's actually emc2 based .. somehow
[15:13:21] <SWPadnos> gecko G-Rex and smoothstepper also exist
[15:13:23] <alex_joni> Fisia: way ?
[15:13:23] <cradek> Fisia: depends on the machine.
[15:13:37] <archivist> alex_joni, ah didnt know
[15:13:44] <jepler> Fisia: there are several drivers in emc that are for cards that included 8255 or 8255-like chips. pci_8255 (for a total shit pci card made in thailand, I don't recommend it), ax5214, and maybe one other
[15:13:45] <Paragon> Agreed... I just wanted to open this up for a small debate so as to get more of a feel why things have been done and have not been done.
[15:13:45] <Fisia> 1000 US... ouch
[15:14:02] <alex_joni> Fisia: a 5i20 card is around 300$ or so
[15:14:08] <cradek> Fisia: you have not done your research if you think a servo card costs $1000
[15:14:46] <Fisia> alex_joni, site address pleasse...
[15:14:53] <Fisia> :)
[15:14:54] <cradek> Fisia: www.google.com
[15:15:10] <alex_joni> * alex_joni uses google.ro
[15:15:11] <Fisia> :)) sure
[15:15:21] <jepler> mesanet.com - motion control
[15:15:25] <cradek> (mesanet.com)
[15:16:07] <alex_joni> http://www.mesanet.com/prices.html
[15:16:17] <alex_joni> 5i20 @ 199$ for 1 pc.
[15:16:52] <Paragon> I like the look of the 7i43 controller.
[15:17:02] <Fisia> how many axis? 5i20 capable of in 1 card?
[15:17:03] <jepler> (5i20 or 7i43) + (7i33 or 7i30 or 1 or 2 7i29) + 1 or 2 7i37 = motion control and possibly servo amplifiers
[15:17:06] <alex_joni> Paragon: not sure if it was ncpod that is emc2 based.. there was a similar one..
[15:17:20] <alex_joni> Fisia: plenty :)
[15:17:48] <alex_joni> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?HostMot2
[15:18:27] <SWPadnos> ys, it's the ncpo
[15:18:32] <Fisia> last time i go to mesa, im confused by it so many product, now u mention the key word, i should thank u..
[15:18:35] <SWPadnos> yes ... ncpod
[15:18:45] <alex_joni> 8-channel servo plus 24 step/dir generators <- crazy :)
[15:19:29] <Paragon> ncpod? I'll take a look at it... for interest and educational purposes of coarse ;-)
[15:19:36] <jepler> $227 (7i43 + 7i33 + 7i37, add analog servo amplifiers) to $935 (5i20 + 2*7i29 + 2*7i37, includes 4 2kw servo amplifiers)
[15:20:13] <SWPadnos> uh - 5i22?
[15:20:19] <SWPadnos> the 5i20 only has 3 connectors
[15:20:20] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: yeah
[15:20:38] <jepler> another very good fpga-based servo or stepper system for emc: http://pico-systems.com/motion.html
[15:20:53] <jepler> SWPadnos: 7i29 uses a half connector (two h-bridges per card)
[15:20:59] <SWPadnos> ah, ok
[15:21:06] <tomp> aerotech is one of a few companies that say firewire can be used for realtime motion control (32uS servo update loop iirc)
[15:21:08] <Fisia> and how much ncpod cost?
[15:21:33] <fenn> tomp: firewire is dying too :\
[15:21:34] <SWPadnos> I think the system is $1000 or so, and you have to use their software
[15:22:06] <fenn> i think future versions of emc should use the motherboard buzzer
[15:22:20] <SWPadnos> there's a speaker driver already ;)
[15:22:21] <jepler> fenn: uh, hal_speaker has existed for 2 1/2 years
[15:22:31] <jepler> I think it's the first hal driver I wrote
[15:22:37] <jepler> it actually plays daisy.ngc pretty well :-P
[15:22:40] <fenn> yes, but for synchronizing stepper pulses instead of using that old crusty parport
[15:22:51] <Fisia> ($1000 hurt my neck) :)
[15:22:58] <fenn> * fenn abandons lame attempt at sarcasm
[15:23:01] <skunkworks> Fisia: this is the pluto. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGF07oVkl6M
[15:23:26] <Fisia> ill go see
[15:24:13] <fenn> so, all this talk about embedded processors on the list.. i hope someone ports emc2 to ARM
[15:24:31] <SWPadnos> yeah yeah
[15:24:36] <Fisia> :)
[15:24:51] <jepler> it
[15:24:58] <fenn> much better solution than all this hacky usb stuff
[15:25:04] <jepler> it's nice that "embedded processor" means "a processor as powerful as a PC processor just a few years ago"
[15:25:52] <Paragon> :-)
[15:26:16] <fenn> its nice that embedded processors are so cheap, small, durable, and cruft-free
[15:26:33] <Paragon> Back Soon.... Off to the library in the vane attempt of finding a Verilog book ;-)
[15:27:57] <Fisia> how about, EMC2 on a 4GB Flashdisk... can RTAI handle to readwrite on Flashdisk..? RTAI work on RAM? please explain
[15:28:17] <alex_joni> no
[15:28:30] <Fisia> why?
[15:28:40] <alex_joni> too long explanation :)
[15:28:54] <alex_joni> RTAI can't access the flash, but it doesn't have to
[15:29:09] <alex_joni> the linux which contains emc2 and RTAI can access the flash
[15:29:16] <alex_joni> and it can be made to handle readwrite
[15:29:17] <SWPadnos> you can certainly boot from a flash disk and run RTAI, they're separate questions
[15:30:05] <fenn> also flash is slow to read/write, compared to RAM.. possibly too slow for what you want
[15:30:35] <Paragon> Does sherline contribute to EMC Dev in anyway. I understand they ship EMC2 with ther hardware.
[15:30:51] <fenn> Paragon: they dont even bother to use emc2
[15:31:03] <Paragon> Really?
[15:31:23] <Fisia> where can i find EMC2 thats work on Flashdisk... HDD gets damages on most vibration on shop
[15:31:54] <fenn> Paragon: i think they ship a BDI version that's branched off from emc1 partway through the transition to emc2
[15:32:35] <Paragon> Oh I see... Thanks fenn...
[15:32:37] <alex_joni> Fisia: you can put the LiveCD on a flash disk
[15:32:38] <fenn> Fisia: you can boot from any compact flash card as if it were a HDD
[15:32:50] <fenn> Fisia: i think usb key will work too
[15:32:53] <alex_joni> right
[15:32:58] <fenn> but sometimes they screw up the realtime performance
[15:33:23] <Paragon> Fisia: Start here http://www.pendrivelinux.com/ and update to have RT linux... Should be possible but I would just use LiveCD...
[15:33:43] <Fisia> what is the common different EMC1 and EMC2?
[15:33:53] <Fisia> LiveCD require HDD
[15:34:03] <alex_joni> Fisia: LiveCD requires CD
[15:34:11] <Paragon> LOL :-)
[15:34:13] <alex_joni> but you can also copy the ISO to an USB stick
[15:34:14] <fenn> * fenn chases fisia's tail
[15:34:23] <Fisia> require CD-drive only? :)
[15:34:28] <alex_joni> yes
[15:34:42] <Fisia> fenn.. :)
[15:34:57] <fenn> some laptops won't boot unless they have HDD installed
[15:35:24] <fenn> you dont have to boot from the HDD though
[15:36:25] <Fisia> how can i copy an ISO CD to Flashdisk and make it work (make it Boot & Kickin)
[15:36:59] <fenn> one way is to just install ubuntu to the flash disk as if it were a HDD
[15:37:07] <Paragon> http://www.pendrivelinux.com ... again
[15:37:18] <Paragon> ;-)
[15:37:31] <Fisia> i dont have knowledge to install RTAI, other before says it is compilcated to install RTAI, can i have a link to read about installing RTAI ?
[15:37:58] <archivist> Fisia, live cd it come with it!!
[15:38:15] <archivist> we need a larger hammer
[15:38:18] <fenn> Paragon: isnt that some kind of qemu thingy?
[15:38:28] <Fisia> link to download RTAI source, Axis source, without CVS please... i have difficult time to remember copying alot of files by clickin all one by one
[15:38:59] <Fisia> oh i see :)
[15:39:00] <alex_joni> what do you want to do with Axis source?
[15:39:31] <jepler> Fisia: rtai source: http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1&q=https://www.rtai.org/&usg=AFQjCNFjUuyyT1K1fMvkv_YAzjpEMjz29g
[15:39:43] <Fisia> i study EMC2... i mean all, thats would give me headache and also fun
[15:39:49] <jepler> Fisia: I sent you a link earlier to a page which gives instructions for obtaining emc source code without using cvw
[15:39:52] <jepler> cvs
[15:39:56] <jepler> (axis is a part of the emc2 source distribution)
[15:40:06] <Paragon> fenn: I thought it was a tutorial for various linux flash drive install... 'alf way down the page'
[15:40:10] <jepler> oops, excuse the bad URL -- google sabotaged it. https://www.rtai.org/
[15:40:19] <Fisia> u did but, end up only EMC2 on sourceforge
[15:40:32] <jepler> (axis is a part of the emc2 source distribution)
[15:40:47] <Fisia> oh... i miss the part...?
[15:41:03] <Fisia> ... :
[15:41:27] <Paragon> Right I am now off to the library ...
[15:42:01] <fenn> Paragon: please install ubuntu on all their computers with your pen drive
[15:42:11] <Fisia> https://www.rtai.org/ ...should be installed all ..or only the part of RTAI, like widget-Lib perhaps?
[15:43:17] <jepler> Fisia: if you are interested in using or developing emc, then here is the easiest way to do it: install ubuntu 8.04 from the live cd image on linuxcnc.org, then follow the wiki instructions to compile emc2.
[15:44:17] <jepler> but our wiki has extensive (if not recently updated) instructions for building rtai: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?RtaiSteps
[15:44:32] <Fisia> im trying 2 of them if u dont mind...
[15:45:00] <anonimasu> two of what?
[15:45:02] <Fisia> of course if u dont mind, and im starting data mining... to study it offline
[15:45:05] <jepler> (hm that page is rather old -- rtai is up to 3.6 at least)
[15:45:59] <fenn> blipkowi - gosh that is old
[15:46:01] <Fisia> use, recompile to see how its work, develop it if i could, in my capacity of EMC2
[15:46:30] <Fisia> (i listening to all u guys)
[15:46:35] <Fisia> :)
[15:47:09] <jepler> to develop emc you don't have to (re)compile the kernel or rtai. you can install the linuxcnc.org live cd, then skip straight to compiling emc2.
[15:47:15] <jepler> that's the point I am trying to make
[15:47:20] <Fisia> since then, i gave my plan & idea to you, like i do before, u see
[15:47:26] <jepler> at this point it's well established that absolutely nobody takes my advice, though, so I don't know why I bother.
[15:48:08] <anonimasu> jepler: agreed
[15:48:10] <Fisia> i always took advice,
[15:48:37] <archivist> then repeated the same questions
[15:48:46] <Fisia> i ve been doing all i could do
[15:49:45] <BigJohnT> jepler: the lurkers take your advise that is why they don't ask any questions...
[15:50:07] <Fisia> thats because, i stop on something on tools problem.... i simulate it on my mind to do it next, and sometime i leep.. fix the puzzle next time
[15:50:36] <Fisia> i stop on my problem, not what on your description
[15:51:00] <anonimasu> BigJohnT: the lurkers have already gotten their answers ;)
[15:51:17] <anonimasu> BigJohnT: how much talk has it been the last 5 days about compiling everything yourself?
[15:51:21] <jepler> BigJohnT: I hope I'm not scaring off too many people
[15:51:32] <Fisia> :)
[15:51:51] <fenn> Fisia: you probably won't learn much just by compiling emc
[15:52:09] <alex_joni> Fisia: it really depends what your goal is
[15:52:13] <BigJohnT> jepler: if they scare that easy then... well you know
[15:52:14] <fenn> changing your car's oil won't teach much about how the engine works
[15:52:18] <alex_joni> if you want to understand the emc2 code.. start reading it
[15:52:23] <Fisia> the description is like a bible... sometimes u dont anderstand couple of pages, but not stopin u to read the whole
[15:52:31] <alex_joni> but probably you need a programming class or similar first
[15:53:03] <BigJohnT> fenn: if you leave the plug out you find out a lot about engines :)
[15:53:37] <fenn> BigJohnT: hear lots of strange noises i guess
[15:54:18] <BigJohnT> for a moment or three
[15:54:53] <Fisia> i study many knowledge not for money
[15:55:07] <archivist> or a strange silence where there was once noice
[15:55:18] <archivist> noise
[15:55:26] <Fisia> :)
[15:57:39] <BigJohnT> on a lathe when you use diameter mode (other software) is it a toggle or a different g code?
[15:58:10] <cradek> I think it's a setup option aka parameter of some kind
[15:58:14] <Fisia> changen oil is 1 of some step to understand how engine works
[15:58:38] <BigJohnT> thanks cradek
[15:58:46] <Fisia> u can see the dark of oil, the liquidity..., volume,
[15:58:54] <jepler> driving the car while being attentive to how the engine behaves is worth something too.
[15:59:12] <cradek> BigJohnT: you still use g0, g1, g2, g3 if that's what you are asking
[15:59:25] <BigJohnT> yep that is what I was asking
[16:00:45] <anonimasu> Fisia: not really
[16:00:47] <anonimasu> bbl
[16:01:33] <Fisia> yes you right, u still need to open the engine
[16:01:40] <Fisia> read the manual
[16:02:15] <Fisia> sees how d the each part movin
[16:02:26] <Fisia> and behave
[16:02:43] <Fisia> lookse what metal it is made off
[16:03:27] <Fisia> whay is that why is this,
[16:04:33] <jepler> it's a mistake to think that you can't do any work in biology when there are unanswered questions in quantum gravity, even if in principle all knowledge of biology depends on fundamental physics.
[16:05:20] <jepler> in the same way, thinking that you have to look at all layers of the software is a mistake -- zero in on the part where your interest lies, and start tinkering.
[16:07:26] <jepler> it's a mistake to think that you can't do any work in biology when there are unanswered questions in quantum gravity, even if in principle all knowledge of biology depends on fundamental physics.
[16:07:30] <jepler> in the same way, thinking that you have to look at all layers of the software is a mistake -- zero in on the part where your interest lies, and start tinkering.
[16:08:32] <Fisia> like.. where is Exhaust hole on submarine when it dive under ocean..? :)
[16:09:11] <Fisia> it water would stop the engine if it floaded with water right?
[16:09:13] <Fisia> hehe
[16:11:01] <Fisia> ... :) yes okey, ill do that
[16:19:44] <Fisia> can anyone tell me ,on EMC2 ,witch files that contain 'List of dependency'
[16:20:06] <Fisia> (many question sorry)
[16:20:38] <jepler> Fisia: debian/control, generated by debian/configure, lists the ubuntu (6.06 or 8.04) package name of each required package
[16:23:02] <Fisia> in ubuntu, how can i search the Files that contain 'a text' on whole HDD partition
[16:23:10] <SWPadnos> find
[16:23:33] <Fisia> on it explorer yes
[16:23:44] <fenn> grep
[16:24:00] <fenn> grep -R i mean :)
[16:25:34] <fenn> for example, grep -R dependencies emc2/
[16:26:44] <Fisia> it would search emc2/.. to it whole sub folder?
[16:27:03] <fenn> yes
[16:27:27] <Fisia> :)
[16:28:57] <Fisia> what is the best bash explorer? is any that more better than night-commander?
[16:30:00] <fenn> what does "night-commander" do?
[16:30:23] <Fisia> it would be Norton-comander alike on DOS OS
[16:31:07] <tomp> midnight commander (mc) in linux
[16:31:14] <Fisia> it would browse &explore folder in click... rather then typein
[16:31:44] <Fisia> oh sure, thats it
[16:31:48] <Fisia> :)
[16:31:54] <fenn> yeah, but what does it do?
[16:32:35] <SWPadnos> it's an ncurses-based "shell helper"
[16:32:51] <Fisia> it helpin us to surf HDD on bash/terminal
[16:33:06] <SWPadnos> it lets you select files/dirs using arrow keys, has hotkeys for various functions (copy, edit ...)
[16:33:16] <Fisia> explorer.exe on winblows
[16:33:26] <fenn> i guess i just press the tab key a lot
[16:33:53] <toastatwork> i, for one, welcome our new tab key overlords
[16:34:02] <archivist> tab!! /me uses cursor up
[16:34:13] <Fisia> the nices feature is viewin text-files
[16:34:21] <fenn> archivist: that too, also ctrl-R is a good one
[16:34:37] <Fisia> :)
[16:35:29] <fenn> Fisia: how could you beat "less"?
[16:35:50] <tomp> mc: sequence to find text in a set of files... F9, C(ommand) F(ind) enter text to grep for, enter where to search, hit return ( mc is just a tool )
[16:36:27] <fenn> three keystrokes to find! what a selling point
[16:36:41] <tomp> free
[16:36:42] <archivist> less is more than more
[16:36:46] <Fisia> fenn, whats less? please
[16:37:11] <archivist> more on steroids
[16:37:13] <fenn> less shows the contents of a txt file, you can search for words and stuff
[16:37:34] <archivist> or more with added vi
[16:37:35] <Fisia> :)
[16:37:35] <fenn> it's used for displaying man pages i think
[16:38:45] <Fisia> whats is the best textFiles edit, small in KB too... would edit Hex and Text and can work with mc
[16:39:09] <Fisia> on bash/terminal
[16:40:58] <fenn> i dunno about hex editor, but nano is good for quick simple edits, and is easy to learn
[16:43:32] <Fisia> :)
[16:49:25] <piasdom> can someone tell me why me dropdown menu in emc2 only has lines and no words ?
[16:50:05] <SWPadnos> something screwy with the menu font maybe?
[16:50:14] <SWPadnos> can you take a screenshot and post it to imagebin.org or somewhere?
[16:50:24] <piasdom> ok
[16:50:33] <cradek> which menu?
[16:50:46] <cradek> (sometimes it's hard to get a screenshot of a menu)
[16:50:53] <piasdom> all....file...settings....
[16:50:57] <piasdom> i did brb
[16:51:57] <SWPadnos> settings?
[16:52:16] <piasdom> http://imagebin.org/29725
[16:52:39] <cradek> what version of emc2 is this?
[16:52:41] <piasdom> i use mini and it has file...edit and settings
[16:52:52] <piasdom> how do i check ?
[16:53:01] <SWPadnos> so I see now :)
[16:53:06] <alex_joni> piasdom: start emc2 from a terminal
[16:53:14] <piasdom> 2.2
[16:53:15] <alex_joni> applications->.. -> terminal
[16:53:19] <alex_joni> then type 'emc'
[16:53:22] <piasdom> k
[16:53:25] <alex_joni> it will write emc 2.2.x
[16:53:28] <SWPadnos> after exiting from EMC
[16:53:31] <cradek> looks ok for me, 2.2.6
[16:53:43] <piasdom> 2.2.6
[16:53:48] <alex_joni> and maybe you can see it in help->about
[16:53:56] <cradek> no, it's not in there in mini.
[16:53:58] <alex_joni> piasdom: did you set up some strange language?
[16:54:12] <piasdom> not that i know of
[16:54:19] <cradek> where strange = non-english
[16:54:22] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:54:27] <piasdom> would it be in setpconf ?
[16:54:42] <SWPadnos> no. if you use stepconf, you'll get AXIS instead of mini
[16:54:43] <alex_joni> piasdom: nope
[16:54:44] <cradek> no, it would be a system setting
[16:54:55] <SWPadnos> env | grep LANG
[16:54:56] <piasdom> i set i to go to mini
[16:55:12] <alex_joni> piasdom: does the "Program" dropdown work?
[16:55:39] <piasdom> yes....i have to remember what they are
[16:55:47] <alex_joni> top left, above MANUAL in that picture
[16:56:11] <SWPadnos> wait - different question. I think Alex is asking if the menu displays properly, not if the hotkeys work
[16:56:33] <piasdom> all the same
[16:56:54] <piasdom> don't use hotkeys
[16:57:07] <alex_joni> piasdom: can you try a different config?
[16:57:16] <alex_joni> there is a sim->mini available
[16:57:31] <piasdom> yes
[16:57:37] <piasdom> brb
[16:58:15] <piasdom> same thing
[16:58:36] <alex_joni> can you try sim->tkemc and see if that is ok?
[16:58:42] <piasdom> even if i use axis
[16:58:48] <piasdom> ok
[16:58:52] <alex_joni> axis?
[16:59:04] <alex_joni> how about a different linux program..
[16:59:07] <alex_joni> like terminal..
[16:59:18] <SWPadnos> methinks some tcl font thing is screwed up
[16:59:45] <piasdom> all other linux programs are ok
[17:00:02] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: probably that's it..
[17:00:22] <piasdom> SWPadnos:what is tcl ?
[17:00:51] <alex_joni> Tcl (originally from "Tool Command Language", but nonetheless conventionally rendered as "Tcl" rather than "TCL"; pronounced as "tickle" or "tee-cee-ell"[2]) is a scripting language
[17:00:55] <SWPadnos> tcl is the lanugage used by mini, tkemc, and AXIS for displaying the UI (or most of it anyway)
[17:01:20] <piasdom> great...no way to fix ?
[17:02:14] <piasdom> be back in a bit (work)
[17:02:41] <alex_joni> piasdom: did you run emc2 from a terminal?
[17:02:53] <alex_joni> are there any messages printed there?
[17:03:13] <Paragon> Just a thought ... Have you tried full screen?
[17:03:28] <alex_joni> Paragon: there is no full screen..
[17:03:37] <alex_joni> or it shouldn't do much with this issue
[17:03:43] <Paragon> Just a thought ;-)
[17:10:05] <Fisia> can i have the link to mini source?
[17:10:31] <jepler> Fisia: it is with the emc2 source
[17:10:37] <Fisia> ouch
[17:10:43] <Fisia> thanks
[17:11:19] <alex_joni> Fisia: mini is to be found in emc2/tcl/mini.tcl
[17:11:41] <Fisia> how to run mini? any configuration?
[17:11:51] <cradek> sim/mini
[17:12:26] <Fisia> why 'sim/' (simulation) what the different from Axis?
[17:12:36] <alex_joni> there is a sim/axis aswell
[17:12:49] <alex_joni> sim means you don't have to have a physical machine.. but rather a simulated one
[17:13:25] <Fisia> can mini do real work as axis?
[17:15:12] <Fisia> it seem does the same as the Axis right?
[17:15:52] <Paragon> Fisia: I have you downloaded the EMC2 Handbook and Intergrators Manual. They make interesting reading.
[17:15:54] <archivist> have you read the docs yet to see what does what
[17:16:23] <Paragon> http://www.linuxcnc.org/content/view/5/5/lang,en/
[17:16:59] <Fisia> ok
[17:17:51] <archivist> there is lot to digest and IRC is best just for pointers not the full explanation
[17:19:24] <Fisia> (yes it will do, i have little difficulty to search 'key word' on ww.linuxcnc.org... but ill manage it)
[17:19:33] <Paragon> The docs will give you a good understanding of how things plug together and as mentioned do make interesting reading. Some of the things in the docs can be a little confusing at the beginning but you will be surprised at how quickly things start to make sense.
[17:20:26] <Fisia> good advise :) it would do
[17:23:41] <Paragon> Fisia: No worries. I can remember when I first got involved with EMC2 I had a million and one questions .... I still do ;-) I dissapeared for a while due to a house move and CNC kit been in storage. I have just recently revisited the hobby and still required a few pointers / reminders from the top fellas in this group.
[17:25:32] <archivist> us bottom fellas learn by helping and using and lurking
[17:25:47] <archivist> and learning hopefully
[17:25:49] <Paragon> lol :-)
[17:25:53] <Fisia> :)
[17:26:21] <alex_joni> we all share the same bottom
[17:26:40] <Paragon> Hope not ;-)
[17:27:08] <alex_joni> it's biologically quite similar :)
[17:27:41] <Paragon> Oh Dear, Oh Dear ... where is going to go .... lol
[17:31:56] <Fisia> :))
[17:32:07] <Paragon> seb_kuzminsky: I contacted mesa with regards to the 7i43 card but unfortuanatly they do not accept paypal or debit cards. which is a pitty.
[17:32:45] <seb_kuzminsky> Paragon: where do you live?
[17:32:53] <Paragon> London, UK
[17:32:59] <Fisia> so, how to buy it?
[17:33:04] <Fisia> im Indonesia
[17:33:28] <Paragon> Credit Card or Money transfer
[17:33:36] <seb_kuzminsky> i dont know how mesa sells their stuff...
[17:33:55] <seb_kuzminsky> credit cards seems reasonable
[17:34:19] <Paragon> seb_kuzminsky: No worries, Just saw you where online and thought I'd mention it since we where discussing the card the other day.
[17:34:23] <piasdom> sorry...back
[17:34:29] <seb_kuzminsky> sure ;-)
[17:34:47] <piasdom> so is there any way to fix this tcl thingie ?
[17:35:02] <Fisia> :)
[17:35:18] <Paragon> Sure CC is reasonable if you have one but I got rid of all mine .... I'm a cash man ;-)
[17:35:35] <Fisia> western union?
[17:35:48] <archivist> piasdom, I would google the ubuntu forums
[17:36:12] <piasdom> but it seems to be limited to emc
[17:36:47] <piasdom> but i'll go ask....thanks
[17:37:06] <SWPadnos> piasdom, I don't know how many other Ubuntu programs are based on tcl
[17:37:34] <Paragon> Never used Western Union. I've heard those horror stories though. I'll work somthing out. For the time being I'll just play with my little pluto-p.
[17:37:36] <SWPadnos> you could try running wish with a simple tcl/ck script (like from some web tutorial)
[17:38:02] <SWPadnos> Paragon, you may be able to get a one-time-use credit card number from your bank
[17:39:04] <Paragon> SWPadnos: Really? I've never heard of that.
[17:39:05] <Fisia> :)
[17:39:14] <archivist> Paragon, there are debits that work in the credit card wold (what I use)
[17:39:19] <archivist> world
[17:39:37] <Fisia> (interesting)
[17:40:38] <archivist> eg Barclays debit is in visa network
[17:40:48] <fenn> if your debit card has a visa logo on it, it should work as a credit card
[17:40:50] <Paragon> archivist: Yes some have mastercard or visa signs on them but allas this one does not ... It's a Maestro which I think is UK only but I am not 100% sure. I have used it in Europe I think but at cash machines etc etc
[17:40:54] <skunkworks> most 'bank' cards here work both ways.
[17:41:32] <Paragon> They call the card a switch card over here in the UK
[17:42:06] <archivist> yup silly oddball system
[17:42:23] <Paragon> Sure is... in this day of age...
[17:43:00] <anonimasu> hm, debit/credit cards are very loose nowdays
[17:43:02] <anonimasu> the terms..
[17:43:02] <anonimasu> :)
[17:43:06] <archivist> which reminds me to put more pennies in my card
[17:43:17] <Paragon> lol
[17:43:21] <anonimasu> I'd be lost without my mastercard.
[17:43:37] <archivist> Im a cash only now as well
[17:43:44] <tomp> piasdom: try a simple tcl script to see what does work http://www.bin-co.com/tcl/tutorial/hello_world.php
[17:43:47] <anonimasu> why?
[17:43:50] <Paragon> Right, gotta sign off to catch the train
[17:43:57] <Paragon> CU Laters ...
[17:44:01] <archivist> low pay ....
[17:44:12] <piasdom> ok
[17:44:33] <anonimasu> archivist: you can still have cards without any credit on them..
[17:44:39] <anonimasu> ie, deposit cash and use them..
[17:45:23] <archivist> anonimasu, yes thats the only one I have now
[17:45:43] <anonimasu> though still with mastercard, on them
[17:45:44] <anonimasu> :p
[17:45:49] <archivist> yup
[17:51:12] <alex_joni> whee.. I have a new favourite software (after emc2 of course):
[17:51:14] <alex_joni> http://www.cs.uit.no/~daniels/PingTunnel/
[17:54:35] <archivist> heh nice toy
[17:56:36] <jepler> many desktop environments make color and font settings that affect Tcl applications. this may be an item that can be disabled somewhere inside the "theme" controls for desktop applications. the configuration item may ask whether the desktop should try to apply themes to legacy applications. if you can find it, change it and log in again. maybe this will fix the problem.
[17:58:58] <jepler> the menu example from the page that tomp linked to would be one to try to see whether it has the same problem
[17:59:25] <jepler> if it does, then it's clearly your own system setup that is bad. if it doesn't, then it becomes more likely that the problem is in mini, even if it is not seen on our systems. http://www.bin-co.com/tcl/tutorial/widgets5.php#menu
[17:59:35] <piasdom> what program do use to write a script ? wants me to save it as *.tcl
[17:59:57] <SWPadnos> jepler, I think he said that tkemc and AXIS exhibit the same behavior
[18:00:08] <SWPadnos> it's just a text file
[18:00:28] <piasdom> thanks SWPadnos
[18:00:37] <jepler> piasdom: save the lines to a file, then run it in the terminal with 'wish whatever-filename-you-gave-it.tcl' in the directory where you save dit
[18:00:48] <jepler> SWPadnos: that sure makes it more likely that it will affect all Tk-based apps
[18:00:53] <SWPadnos> yep ;)
[18:01:11] <piasdom> ok thanks jepler
[18:01:15] <jepler> but by running a small, non-emc wish program it can become a certainty :-P
[18:01:24] <SWPadnos> assalooly
[18:02:01] <alex_joni> Assalooly naasing. "Your sudoku can't mask your erection"
[18:02:08] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:02:16] <alex_joni> wtf?
[18:02:27] <SWPadnos> I was thinking of it as Sylvester Stallone saying "absolutely", but YMMV
[18:02:36] <alex_joni> :P
[18:10:12] <Fisia> i just read Flashdisk emc2 would lack RTAI alitle... is it good or bad?
[18:10:20] <Fisia> above reading
[18:12:01] <alex_joni> where did you read that?
[18:12:23] <SWPadnos> I think you wrote it, Alex ;)
[18:12:28] <fragalot> WHEE
[18:12:36] <fragalot> codeweavers (crossover office) is giving free serials
[18:12:51] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: I did?
[18:13:06] <SWPadnos> no, maybe it wasn't you
[18:13:30] <jepler> 10:28:54 <alex_joni> RTAI can't access the flash, but it doesn't have to
[18:13:34] <Fisia> YUP
[18:13:36] <jepler> ^^^ is it this remark you mean?
[18:13:39] <SWPadnos> could be
[18:13:53] <jepler> that was alex's way to say you're asking the wrong question.
[18:13:54] <Fisia> :) |?
[18:14:13] <jepler> linux (not rtai) is in charge of access to block storage devices like traditional hard drives or solid-state drives
[18:14:24] <Fisia> how RTAI affected explain please?
[18:14:33] <SWPadnos> no, you need to search the web a little
[18:14:35] <alex_joni> RTAI doesn't care
[18:14:45] <alex_joni> if you have linux installed to a HDD or to a flash drive
[18:14:59] <archivist> or live cd :)
[18:15:01] <alex_joni> linux mostly doesn't either
[18:15:12] <Fisia> i ve been search, no ggod
[18:15:23] <alex_joni> "mostly" because there are things which you can do to make it work better
[18:15:39] <alex_joni> like run from a ramdisk, and only save relevant (changed) data
[18:16:35] <jepler> it's like asking whether the linux kernel supports html -- it is not the concern of the linux kernel, which deals with things like memory protection and hardware access. it is the wrong question.
[18:17:20] <jepler> rtai deals with allowing code to be called according to real-time deadlines. it doesn't deal with access to the hard drive or flash drives
[18:17:43] <alex_joni> Fisia: doesn't mean we're angry you're asking the wrong questions..
[18:17:58] <jepler> in some cases, specific hardware makes it easier or harder for rtai to do its job -- for instance, specific motherboards together with specific USB flash drives give very bad rtai performance
[18:17:59] <SWPadnos> yeah - sorry if I was rude there
[18:18:13] <alex_joni> but maybe you should read up on linux first (become used to command line commands, etc) before attempting something like this :)
[18:19:10] <Fisia> :) (was okey noproblm)
[18:19:42] <Fisia> :)
[18:21:19] <Fisia> i ll do homework stuffin, now i must log off, your advice, comment, all, would be my consider to study more on EMC2, it is greatz time to be here, it my honour to be here
[18:21:29] <Fisia> thanks
[18:21:37] <Fisia> greatz thanks
[18:22:01] <Fisia> time to go home now
[18:22:06] <SWPadnos> enjoy
[18:49:10] <user_> user_ is now known as SkinnYPuPp
[21:41:52] <alex_joni> good night all
[21:42:41] <seb_kuzminsky> goodnight alex
[21:47:37] <dmess> hi all
[22:15:33] <anonimasu> what does 2-56 mean in inch?
[22:15:44] <anonimasu> if tat like 2/26" inch?
[22:15:53] <anonimasu> err 56
[22:16:01] <seb_kuzminsky> a #2 screw with 56 threads per inch
[22:16:12] <anonimasu> and #2 screw is what?
[22:16:18] <anonimasu> :p
[22:16:36] <seb_kuzminsky> donno - look it up. LMS has a cheat-sheet with all the info on it
[22:17:08] <anonimasu> *sighs* I wish inch would just die under it's own weight
[22:17:18] <seb_kuzminsky> you and me both
[22:17:23] <anonimasu> :
[22:17:24] <anonimasu> :)
[22:18:15] <dmess> SMALL
[22:18:57] <anonimasu> hmm
[22:19:01] <anonimasu> .0960" ?
[22:19:18] <dmess> sounds about right
[22:19:33] <anonimasu> 2.4384mm
[22:19:52] <anonimasu> free clearance..
[22:21:19] <anonimasu> damn inch is more stupid then I originally thougth..
[22:22:49] <dmess> what do you mean by free clearance
[22:23:04] <anonimasu> ie, what to drill if you want the screw to go through the hole..
[22:23:21] <anonimasu> http://www.littlemachineshop.com/Reference/tapdrill.php
[22:23:36] <dmess> oh.. look for tap drill size.. and subtract .015"
[22:23:52] <anonimasu> I'll drill the holes 2.5mm anyway
[22:24:11] <anonimasu> there probably isnt any easy way to get .0960" drills.. in north sweden
[22:24:12] <anonimasu> :p
[22:24:30] <anonimasu> dormer will sell them and air freight me them -_-
[22:24:46] <dmess> call sandvik shouldnt be a problem.. even ther inch series is made there
[22:24:55] <anonimasu> oh.. dormer is better I think
[22:24:55] <anonimasu> :p
[22:25:06] <anonimasu> (they deliver always the day after you've ordered)
[22:25:23] <dmess> well what a whinin' about
[22:25:39] <anonimasu> I dont want a odd drill for a one off hobby project of mine :p
[22:26:13] <dmess> 2.5mm will be fine ass long as this isnt a load bearing screw
[22:26:26] <anonimasu> I know
[22:26:41] <anonimasu> the load is in axis with the screw into the base of what im making
[22:26:53] <anonimasu> and the screw has a nut too ;)
[22:27:02] <dmess> heck use a 2.25 and the tap will handle the rest.. youll have full thd
[22:27:09] <anonimasu> I'm not tapping
[22:27:24] <anonimasu> just want a through hole for it
[22:27:29] <dmess> well no problem the...
[22:27:34] <anonimasu> yep
[22:27:39] <anonimasu> hence why 2.5 is fine :)
[22:28:04] <dmess> measure screw with vernier/mic.. ad .25 mm... find nearest bigger drill in shop
[22:28:19] <anonimasu> that's 2.5mm
[22:28:29] <anonimasu> :)
[22:28:37] <anonimasu> I dont keep random inch drills around
[22:28:39] <dmess> hmm see i knew we'd figure it out// ;)
[22:28:47] <anonimasu> hehe
[22:28:53] <anonimasu> but how can you name screws #321
[22:28:55] <anonimasu> :p
[22:29:50] <dmess> # sizes are actual wire guage sizes... so screws and such could be mage from stock WIRE
[22:30:12] <dmess> the -56 or -80 is the scre pitch
[22:30:21] <dmess> screw
[22:30:29] <anonimasu> I like M5x1.5 for screws :p
[22:30:36] <dmess> in threads per inch
[22:30:45] <anonimasu> or 1"x0.2
[22:30:46] <anonimasu> :p
[22:31:19] <dmess> 1"-8 tpi is std inc format NOT wire size format
[22:32:07] <anonimasu> I see
[22:32:26] <dmess> #10-24 tpi... inch series is same as # series... my bad...
[22:32:44] <dmess> brb
[22:43:16] <dmess> back
[22:44:24] <dmess> the imperial system is based on an actual "inch" that is held in a standards lab...
[22:45:01] <dmess> but it is only as good as the clowns who made it after all
[22:49:22] <dmess> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AYG4y5et5g check this out... LOL
[22:51:35] <anonimasu> LOL
[22:52:39] <gezar> howdy
[22:56:09] <dmess> not bad eh...??
[22:57:30] <anonimasu> ^_^
[22:59:06] <Dallur2> http://www.intelliadmin.com/blog/2008/10/smb-vulnerablity-found-emergency-patch.html
[23:00:49] <Dallur2> Meaning if you have a windows box with a file share your machine is now as good as open for anyone that can reach the machine via network
[23:01:49] <anonimasu> hmm, what's new about that?
[23:02:01] <Dallur2> anonimasu: not much :)
[23:02:15] <anonimasu> I'll bet you 60% of all users still have no passwords
[23:02:16] <anonimasu> :p
[23:02:42] <Dallur2> anonimasu: now 100% of all servers don't have any passwords :P
[23:02:53] <Dallur2> (100% of windows servers that is)
[23:03:06] <gezar> how has emc been in the past few months? still improving?
[23:05:36] <SWPadnos> yes
[23:06:17] <jepler> Paragon: I fiddled with fitter settings in the current quartusII and eventually got it to build, but I don't presently have any hardware to test pluto_servo on ...
[23:07:15] <SWPadnos> gezar, here's the changelog: http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/debian/changelog?rev=1.42
[23:07:23] <SWPadnos> not all from the last few months though
[23:08:12] <jepler> Paragon: I put the .zip file up at: http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/pluto_servo_firmware.zip
[23:08:32] <gezar> SWPadnos: thank you, im still in school, asm and c++ this sememster, doing well so far
[23:08:45] <SWPadnos> cool. should be fun
[23:08:51] <jepler> I first made a source-code modification that should have made no difference, then I just modified settings in the GUI at random until it stopped complaining.
[23:09:08] <SWPadnos> the Homer Simpson approach
[23:09:32] <SWPadnos> (he did prevent ameltdown though, so it apparently works well)
[23:10:32] <Paragon> jepler: Thanks for letting me know. Ill test it on the pluto-p some point in the week. The xps desktop machine I have in the house does not have a para port. I was not aware until this evening, it's fairly new.
[23:11:52] <jepler> Paragon: OK -- if you can confirm that the new version works properly, that would be useful to me.
[23:12:12] <Paragon> I went to plug the pluto-p in and thought huh dam no para port. Very annoying. .....
[23:12:31] <jepler> indeed
[23:12:41] <SWPadnos> get over to RS and buy a parport card then :)
[23:13:22] <jepler> RS has parport cards?
[23:13:30] <SWPadnos> they may. they have a lot of stuff
[23:13:37] <jepler> I thought they specialized in cellphones and radio controlled plastic these days
[23:13:49] <SWPadnos> RS, not Radio Shack
[23:14:14] <jepler> oh, never heard of 'em
[23:14:20] <SWPadnos> www.rswww.co.uk
[23:14:26] <SWPadnos> or something like that
[23:14:31] <Paragon> Will do jepler. I can test as far as loading up and emc recognising the pluto but I have not broken it out as yet. The headers don't fit correctly on the pluto due to the spacing so need to hard wire the connection on the side... if you follow me.
[23:15:07] <jepler> Paragon: yeah it is hard (impossible) to use all the pins with standard IDC female connectors
[23:15:10] <SWPadnos> yes, they do have them, but they're expensive as hell, £29.90 minimum
[23:16:28] <jepler> I run my little router on pluto_step and it doesn't need a whole lot of I/Os .. I just used these little jumper wires to my stepper driver board which has a 26 pin male header on it: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8430
[23:16:47] <Paragon> Still it would be nice to play with it in the comfort of my house rather than walking to the end of the garden to the shop and testing.
[23:17:22] <jepler> (probably not something you should do if it's not just a toy like mine is :-P -- they're not terribly secure connections)
[23:17:55] <Paragon> It's starting to get cold!
[23:18:07] <jepler> indeed it is (though the weather today was nice)
[23:18:44] <Paragon> Still trying to get my head around Verilog. It's coming slowly...real slow.
[23:19:44] <jepler> indeed
[23:21:28] <jepler> I suspect that trying to learn it based on my verilog is a bad idea -- I was at little more than a "hello world" level when I threw together pluto_servo_firmware
[23:22:06] <Paragon> jepler: Did you read any books on the subject or pick it up online and via the quatus tutorial ?
[23:22:28] <Paragon> Quartus...
[23:22:37] <jepler> Paragon: I have a friend's college textbook on vhdl, but it was useless. I picked it up from various tutorials and on-line references.
[23:23:25] <jepler> (verilog != vhdl, it's like trying to learn C from a Pascal book)
[23:24:55] <Paragon> I have been looking at this site http://www.asic-world.com/verilog/veritut.html but have not managed to get anything to work yet. Kind of getting my head around certain syntax. I have been away from coding (except perl) for quite sometime now.
[23:25:30] <jepler> that page looks slightly familiar, I probably looked at it
[23:25:54] <jepler> is there a specific change or modification you want to do to pluto_servo? or just using it as a step to get into fgpas?
[23:27:02] <Paragon> For example what do I need to do to sucessfully compile the folowing with quartus? http://www.asic-world.com/examples/verilog/divide_by_2.html#Divide_by_2_Counter Assign pins etc? I get defined error 'Error: Top-level design entity "multtwo" is undefined'
[23:28:01] <jepler> I don't even see it saying "multtwo" in there
[23:28:35] <jepler> in the example code, I mean
[23:28:45] <Paragon> Dam thats spooky.. I was just thinking does the module name have to be the same as the file name?
[23:29:18] <Paragon> I just saved it as multtwo from within quartus.
[23:30:04] <jepler> I think I always have the module name the same as the file name
[23:33:05] <jepler> yes it seems that is a requirement
[23:34:02] <jepler> after you get it to compile without pin assignments, the next thing would be to assign appropriate pins. somewhere in the documentation you should have gotten a link to when you bought the board is a list of the relationship between the fpga pin numbers and the pluto-p board itself
[23:34:15] <jepler> clock, parport pins, and header pins
[23:34:18] <Paragon> Still having problems. Going to start a new project and try again.
[23:34:40] <jepler> over here, I created a new project, added clk_div.v, and got a successful compilation
[23:35:08] <Paragon> Really. Did you give the project the same name?
[23:35:25] <jepler> yes
[23:35:38] <jepler> everything named clk_div: project, .v file, "module" of .v file
[23:36:09] <Paragon> ok I'll try that.
[23:36:13] <jepler> in project settings you can choose "top-level entity", but it must default to the same as the project name
[23:37:03] <Paragon> clk_div for entity also I guess
[23:39:32] <Paragon> Yep that worked that time :-)
[23:40:14] <jepler> next thing you might want to do is use the GUI pin assignment editor
[23:41:11] <Jymmmm> jepler: My pascal book had (some) C and ASM fwiw =)
[23:41:12] <jepler> to put these things either on header pins (if you want to use a scope & signal generator for testing) or parport pins (if you want to use hal & halscope to exercise it)
[23:42:05] <jepler> (you could load the firmare with some userspace program like the one I think is still on my website, then run halrun, load hal_parport, and send whatever signals you want to the clk, enable, and reset pins)
[23:42:53] <Paragon> I like the sound of that jepler
[23:43:51] <jepler> it is nice if you only need to test fairly slow signals and have the level of familiarity with hal to be able to set up the test signals you want
[23:44:09] <jepler> but for instance a stepgen waveform out and a half-frequency waveform back in, that should be pretty easy to do
[23:44:42] <Paragon> BTW I noticed that the pluto-servo on the pc side has a .comp suffix what does this indicate?
[23:45:01] <jepler> comp is a wrapper that makes it a little easier to write a HAL component
[23:45:22] <jepler> otherwise there's a lot of boring boilerplate to write
[23:45:36] <Paragon> Specific to EMC / HAL then.
[23:45:39] <jepler> yeah
[23:45:47] <jepler> the "language" is described in our documentation: http://linuxcnc.org/docview/html/hal_comp.html
[23:45:55] <Paragon> Is there a reference anywhere online?
[23:46:36] <Paragon> You just answered that question :-)
[23:47:18] <Paragon> I haven't seen thsi doc before :-)
[23:47:31] <jepler> there's a lot of docs
[23:49:36] <Paragon> Can't see a link for that doc on the documentation page. Wondering what other docs are are out there.
[23:50:16] <jepler> on linuxcnc.org, click "documentation", then click "html" on the line "all documentation in (html)"
[23:50:36] <jepler> then under heading "hal", click "comp: a tool for creating realtime components"
[23:50:47] <jepler> er, for creating HAL components
[23:51:25] <BigJohnT> it is also in the Integrators manual...
[23:51:33] <jepler> I think it's also a chapter in the pdf docs that come with the emc2 package .. what BigJohnT said
[23:51:55] <Paragon> Jeez ... I must of missed this... Thank for the pointer.
[23:52:09] <BigJohnT> HAL Specifics/comp
[23:52:16] <jepler> I frequently think we need to find ways to make the documentation easier to find
[23:52:19] <jepler> but I don't have any great ideas
[23:52:44] <BigJohnT> I agree but also don't have the great idea yet...
[23:54:03] <Paragon> It is already broken down by user manual and development though. I was obviously being blind on this one ;-)
[23:55:38] <Paragon> Although saying that it may be worth having seperate pages for each so as to easily identify between the two.
[23:56:58] <jepler> Paragon: so did you get to this page http://linuxcnc.org/docview/html/ but just not notice the specific document before now? or when looking for online documentation did you get stuck at http://www.linuxcnc.org/content/view/5/5/lang,en/ instead? or was it something else that you think was the problem?
[23:58:41] <Paragon> I think I was looking at the pdf files to be honest. I prefer to read from printed manuals. I must of just missed it. Via http://www.linuxcnc.org/content/view/5/5/lang,en/