#emc | Logs for 2008-09-16

[00:00:51] <dareposte> main emphasis on cheap and easy, so i guess i will just pick the cheapest and hope it's also the easiest
[00:01:54] <dareposte> and what is this "forward current transfer ratio" thing all about. why would anybody buy a 0.5 when a 1.5 is the same cost
[00:01:59] <Dmess> good luck
[00:04:47] <dareposte> i think i've got it narrowed down to 13 pages of results
[00:04:51] <dareposte> :-x
[00:10:46] <dareposte> I think we have a winner: http://www.lumex.com/pdf/OCP-PCT114+C.pdf
[00:12:35] <dareposte> at $2 for 10 of them I guess I can afford to be wrong
[00:13:46] <dareposte> Dmess: if it works I'll send you a pcb
[00:14:57] <tomp> looking at how others interface stuff is handy http://www.anderswallin.net/2006/08/optoisolator-cards-for-mesa-5i20-servocard/
[00:19:10] <dareposte> hmm wonder why he chose that one
[00:19:37] <dareposte> hcpl2531 is rated to 20v output with only 8ma/channel
[00:19:44] <tomp> recommended by another whiz, he talks about it
[00:19:46] <dareposte> and 5x more expensive too
[00:20:07] <dareposte> wonder if they have better speed characteristics or some other desirable feature
[00:21:36] <tomp> gotta shut down, finished b/u this hd, later!
[00:23:01] <dareposte> ahh that would be it, they are good into the mhz range whereas my cheapies are only good to 85khz or so
[00:23:52] <dareposte> tomp: thanks for the link
[00:24:16] <dareposte> i think for my application 85khz should be plenty good
[00:32:32] <maddash> it's so annoying that GTK2 accelerators don't work
[01:19:51] <pminmo> I've got a 6.06 install problem. Live CD only see's my video at 640 x 480. I can't navigate through the manual disk install when I get to partition selection to continue. Is there key strokes that will let me pan the screen or a way to change the desktop size? Admin>screen resolution only gives 640 x 480 resolution
[01:22:04] <jmkasunich> arrgh
[01:22:17] <jmkasunich> I've seen that problem, but it was so long ago I don't remember the solution
[01:22:30] <jmkasunich> I hate graphical installers
[01:22:46] <pminmo> :-) :-(
[01:49:49] <Unit41> im trying to get a driver to work and all that happens is stepper clicks and config crashes
[01:51:38] <Unit41> i bought one of those mechatronics drivers off ebay
[02:10:38] <SWPadnos> when you say the config crashes, what do you mean?
[02:19:17] <|dareposte|> wonder if he's using stepconf
[02:19:56] <SWPadnos> I wasn't sure if "driver" meant software or hardware
[02:20:06] <Dmess> have you configured it propoerly...its config seemed a little odd to me and i have the same 1 not wired up yet
[02:20:47] <Dmess> the pin outs are backwards it seems
[02:25:05] <|dareposte|> backwards or inverted
[02:45:16] <|dareposte|> anybody know the pulse rate for pdm output?
[02:46:06] <|dareposte|> like a ballpark figure?
[02:46:28] <jepler> |dareposte|: up to one output transition per BASE_PERIOD
[02:47:43] <|dareposte|> would that be normal? the developers manual suggested 10khz i think
[02:47:58] <|dareposte|> as an upper limit
[02:48:03] <jepler> two transitions to go from 0 to 1 back to 0, so for BASE_PERIOD=25000 you get 2*25000ns = 50000ns = 50us = 20kHz
[02:48:52] <|dareposte|> so for generic spindle speed control would it be wise to attempt to run a pdm that fast? it would definitely help the filter circuit to have a higher pulse rate, but what effect would it have on the cpu load
[02:49:20] <jepler> very little, I doubt you could measure it
[02:49:36] <jmkasunich> choose you base period to provide the step rates you need for your other axes, and take whatever you get for the PDM frequency
[02:50:08] <|dareposte|> sounds good
[02:51:16] <|dareposte|> is there any way to set it up to allow for decel / accel times?
[02:51:39] <|dareposte|> if my drive takes 0.2s to accelerate then it would always be 0.2s behind for constant surface speed work
[02:52:02] <|dareposte|> or is that not generally a problem
[02:52:50] <cradek> it's not a problem
[02:53:13] <cradek> you don't change radius that fast, and if you also use feed-per-rev you will never notice it in your part finish
[02:53:41] <|dareposte|> i was thinking about a facing operation on a large part, but it was only a thought
[02:54:17] <cradek> yes facing is especially a time to use fpr+css
[02:54:39] <cradek> at cutting speeds you don't move far in 0.2s anyway
[02:54:51] <|dareposte|> that is true enough
[02:54:59] <cradek> it is more of a problem if you rapid out to a large diameter and then start cutting right away
[02:55:09] <cradek> since the speed can still be too high
[02:55:15] <|dareposte|> easy enough to program around i guess
[02:55:18] <jmkasunich> usually, if you set a VFD for 0.2 (or even 2) second ramp time, that means "the ramp rate is such that it will go form zero to max speed in 0.2 (or 2.0) seconds
[02:55:30] <cradek> yes you just have to think about it when programming
[02:55:34] <jmkasunich> if you are going from 1000 to 1100 RPM as part of css, the time will be much less
[02:55:39] <cradek> you'll see it on the first run anyway...
[02:55:58] <jepler> since you piqued my curiousity, here are two plots of function execution time for 10kHz pwm vs pdm: http://emergent.unpy.net/index.cgi-files/sandbox/pwmgen-pdm.png http://emergent.unpy.net/index.cgi-files/sandbox/pwmgen-pwm-10khz.png -- the variation due to cache effects is much much greater than the variation due to pwm vs pdm
[02:56:21] <|dareposte|> jmkasunich: i was assuming the default accel time of 5s for my drive, and maybe going only a 5% change in speed
[02:56:30] <jmkasunich> ah
[02:56:48] <cradek> adding a braking resistor will help a lot
[02:56:56] <cradek> (I need to get one sometime)
[02:56:59] <jmkasunich> well, I'd set the accel time to as fast as I feel comfortable with, rather than using the default
[02:56:59] <|dareposte|> jepler: did you just make those??
[02:57:09] <jepler> |dareposte|: yeah
[02:57:10] <cradek> I have my vfd set for "don't fault no matter how long it takes to decel"
[02:58:21] <SWPadnos> PWM and PDM do the same amount of math, the only differences are that they use different comparison thresholds and PDM does a lot more OUT instructions
[02:58:41] <jmkasunich> PDM does NOT do more out instructions
[02:58:54] <jepler> by the way, that number is in CPU cycles; the CPU is about 2.13GHZ so when all the stars (and caches) are aligned it takes about 46*nano*seconds to do the pwm/pdm calculations.
[02:59:05] <jmkasunich> pwmgen only sets the HAL pin, and the parport driver updates every time whether the output changed state or not
[02:59:09] <SWPadnos> I thought that was essentially the same as "interlaced" PWM??
[02:59:15] <SWPadnos> ah, true
[02:59:45] <SWPadnos> does the parport driver optimize away redundant writes (if new == old don't bother)?
[02:59:50] <jmkasunich> no
[02:59:53] <SWPadnos> ok
[03:00:17] <SWPadnos> no point for the most part, since you can't have a machine that will crash if it ever has to output the bytes :)
[03:00:20] <jepler> |dareposte|: hal has some nice bits built in for performance monitoring -- you can track in halscope the execution time of each HAL function (such as pwmgen.0.make-pulses), and you can view in halcmd (but unfortunately not graph in halscope) the total execution time of each thread
[03:00:27] <jmkasunich> I suppose it could, but that wouldn't help the worst case (would hurt it a tiny bit) and it would increase jitter
[03:01:05] <SWPadnos> it would only increase jitter for the second write, and of course anything that comes after that function
[03:01:38] <SWPadnos> in any case, PWM and PDM do the same amount of work ;)
[03:03:38] <|dareposte|> jepler: I have not gotten so far as to actually get the electricals hooked up yet, I was just making my circuit for PDM to analog 10v signal and was trying to get the design right
[03:03:59] <|dareposte|> I'm sure I will be getting intimately familiar with halscope very soon though
[03:04:13] <jepler> |dareposte|: it's a very useful tool, you'll be glad once you've learned it
[03:04:44] <|dareposte|> thank you for the help and advice everybody who jumped in, very informative
[03:06:26] <cradek> welcome
[03:06:50] <|dareposte|> on the accel time wouldn't maxing it out be harder on the gear train though
[03:06:57] <|dareposte|> or belt in my case
[03:07:11] <SWPadnos> dareposte, did you see the $28 PWM->analog spindle converter?
[03:07:22] <jmkasunich> a bit, but nothing compared to a normal "across-the-line" start of the motor
[03:07:38] <|dareposte|> yeah I saw it
[03:07:51] <SWPadnos> ok. it may not be quite what you need
[03:07:58] <jepler> (if you discover that PDM is too fast for your optos or whatever, you can simply select an appropriate pwm frequency and turn on dither -- that'll be essentially as good as you can get. "minimum on time" (or off time) would be another interesting mode to have in pwmgen, hmm)
[03:08:11] <SWPadnos> you probably need to use the analog version, which means you'd have to filter anyway
[03:08:16] <|dareposte|> my optos are supposedly have a cutoff frequency of 85khz
[03:09:27] <|dareposte|> swpadnos: I did like the $27 circuit, but I'm trying to incorporate the digital IO and analog speed control all onto the same board
[03:09:32] <SWPadnos> ah
[03:09:45] <SWPadnos> there were those too, for $65 or so I think
[03:09:47] <jepler> which $27 or $28 circuit is this?
[03:09:54] <SWPadnos> may have been a different site
[03:10:03] <SWPadnos> homann designs DigiSpeed GX or XL or something
[03:10:12] <|dareposte|> maybe, i ordered enough optos and opamps to make 5 boards for about $20 though
[03:10:24] <SWPadnos> isoalted analog output from 0-5V, 0-10V, or PWM,
[03:10:35] <SWPadnos> and maybe serial or something also
[03:10:39] <jepler> 'night all
[03:10:43] <SWPadnos> (different versions though)
[03:10:44] <|dareposte|> night
[03:10:45] <SWPadnos> see you
[03:11:44] <|dareposte|> is it common practice to actually use the double-redundant e-stop lines?
[03:12:27] <|dareposte|> on these premade boards that is
[03:12:28] <SWPadnos> I don't think so, but it depends on what you mean by that :)
[03:13:08] <SWPadnos> since e-stop should always be designed as fail-safe (ie, if a wire breaks, you can't get the machine out of e-stop), having two chains just adds extra stuff that can break
[03:13:09] <|dareposte|> i don't know i guess its some safety standard to have two e-stop lines in parallel
[03:13:31] <SWPadnos> yes, there are some situations where that's done. I think the semiconductor industry is one
[03:13:59] <|dareposte|> they make us do it at work that way, and i just assumed it was some safety law or rule they had adopted
[03:14:51] <SWPadnos> it is, for some industries
[03:15:09] <SWPadnos> whether it's necessary / advisable really depends on your situation I guess
[03:15:10] <|dareposte|> is cnc machine tools one of those industries? :)
[03:15:23] <SWPadnos> I don't think it's required, but I don't know for sure
[03:15:55] <|dareposte|> ok
[03:15:56] <SWPadnos> the main things are that you can't have a single point of failure that could make it so the machine can harm someone (at least for Semi-S2)
[03:16:22] <SWPadnos> and you have to remove alll hazardous energy from the machine as fast as possible when E-stop is hit
[03:16:41] <SWPadnos> (and also poisonous gases etc, in the semi industry)
[03:16:54] <|dareposte|> no poison gases here fortunately
[03:16:58] <SWPadnos> yeah :)
[03:17:33] <SWPadnos> there is also a rule (again, I don't know if it applies to CNC specifically) that e-stop can't depend on silicon at all
[03:17:44] <|dareposte|> uh oh
[03:17:51] <|dareposte|> that rules out my optoisolator e-stop circuti
[03:17:53] <SWPadnos> I don't know for sure whether that means no programmable silicon, no microcontroller/FPGA, or no transistors
[03:18:08] <cradek> I think all of the above
[03:18:16] <|dareposte|> in my work its required to be hard-wired with dual channel "safety" relays
[03:18:17] <SWPadnos> as long as you can guarantee that a failure of the opto will cause an estop, then it might be OK
[03:18:21] <cradek> relays only is my understanding (I am not an expert)
[03:18:26] <SWPadnos> cradek, I think so too, but never confirmed it
[03:18:42] <cradek> I designed that in my recent project - just seems smart.
[03:18:59] <|dareposte|> yeah an e-stop button is one thing that i definitely want to have work
[03:19:03] <SWPadnos> the trouble with transistors is that they can fail shorted, which isn't acceptable in an estop chain
[03:19:10] <cradek> right
[03:19:26] <SWPadnos> estop should be isolated through a mechanical relay, and EMC should only have an output to that chain
[03:19:29] <|dareposte|> couldn't a relay stick though
[03:19:41] <cradek> sure
[03:19:43] <SWPadnos> dry contacts are unlikely to stick
[03:19:49] <SWPadnos> but you could use a contactor also
[03:19:53] <SWPadnos> a tiny one :)
[03:20:00] <cradek> mine's a decent size contactor
[03:20:11] <|dareposte|> those safety relays sort of look like contactors now that you mention it
[03:20:15] <cradek> switches off the AC that runs all the other contactors
[03:20:26] <SWPadnos> is estop in series with servo power or something?
[03:20:28] <SWPadnos> ah
[03:20:45] <|dareposte|> so for the e-stop chain it should probably be hard wired with EMC having a single e-stop out into a relay which breaks the NC chain
[03:21:03] <SWPadnos> no, to a relay that makes the estop chain while EMC is ready to run
[03:21:24] <SWPadnos> you don't have to do that, but you can
[03:21:29] <|dareposte|> EMC needs to have an E-stop input too though right, so it can stop the steppers
[03:21:34] <cradek> I use emc to trigger the event to come out of estop. all the buttons have to be out for this to happen
[03:21:59] <|dareposte|> cradek: my vfd says not to cut the AC to it in event of estop, as it will stop faster if it decels
[03:22:01] <SWPadnos> right, and the contactor is in a latching configuration
[03:22:19] <SWPadnos> yes, that's a yough question
[03:22:22] <SWPadnos> you tough
[03:22:24] <SWPadnos> -you
[03:22:26] <SWPadnos> man
[03:22:28] <cradek> |dareposte|: that's a "pick your poison" case. I chose to send 'external fault' to mine and 'unplug' it
[03:23:06] <cradek> I guess I'd rather everything go limp than try to decel under power when something is wrong
[03:23:26] <cradek> but it's only me who has to use it. I don't pretend to know what anybody's "best practice" is
[03:23:27] <|dareposte|> the documentation for mine says it is likely to hurt the vfd as well (??)
[03:23:29] <SWPadnos> except Z - you really want a brake on a head that could fall
[03:23:39] <cradek> SWPadnos: very true
[03:23:53] <SWPadnos> you shouldn't cut power in normal opeeration
[03:24:00] <cradek> |dareposte|: docs with mine are foggy about that
[03:24:02] <SWPadnos> but by definition, estop is an emergency
[03:24:07] <|dareposte|> yeah
[03:24:15] <SWPadnos> and ideally those wouldn't happen too often
[03:24:19] <|dareposte|> i would envision using the estop button when i realize my code is no good
[03:24:24] <SWPadnos> yes
[03:24:30] <cradek> the docs say not to do it as a way to normally control it, use it just for emergency
[03:24:43] <cradek> it says it "may" "shorten" the "life" of the drive or some nonsense
[03:24:47] <SWPadnos> though I must say, estop was a different thing on a particular machine I saw
[03:25:01] <SWPadnos> better than shortening the life of the machine operator
[03:25:28] <|dareposte|> i was thinking maybe use the red mushroom estop button to command a rapid spindle stop, and decel and hold all axes
[03:25:41] <SWPadnos> that's one option
[03:25:44] <|dareposte|> and if things ever really got out of hand have a manual disconnect
[03:25:49] <|dareposte|> that cuts power to the whole rig
[03:25:54] <SWPadnos> usually you cut power to anything that might get a command from the PC
[03:26:03] <SWPadnos> because the PC could be crashed ...
[03:26:12] <cradek> decel and hold all axes how?
[03:26:27] <|dareposte|> hadn't figured out the how yet
[03:26:44] <|dareposte|> maybe force step and direction high for each drive?
[03:27:02] <cradek> oh steppers? they're easy to stop :-)
[03:27:06] <|dareposte|> yeah
[03:27:18] <SWPadnos> decelerating may work on a DC or AC servo, but it doesn't work easily on steppers
[03:27:33] <cradek> better to turn them off
[03:27:39] <SWPadnos> you get the best decel when you slow the pulse stream
[03:27:56] <SWPadnos> yeah - I wonder if drives look like a short when they're depowered
[03:28:05] <|dareposte|> i would like to not lose steps when i hit the e-stop button
[03:28:12] <SWPadnos> get sefvos
[03:28:15] <SWPadnos> servos
[03:28:21] <cradek> yeah, those are incompatible goals
[03:28:45] <cradek> if you use abort, not estop, you get a controlled stop with position preserved
[03:29:11] <|dareposte|> maybe a yellow abort button, with a red estop button then
[03:29:37] <SWPadnos> even if you use encoders (which I'm not suggesting), you would have a full electrical cycle (4 full steps) of uncertainty when you restart, since you don't know where the stepper was beforehand, and the drive will come on in some state that probably isn't the same
[03:29:46] <SWPadnos> yes, abort is different
[03:29:51] <SWPadnos> that's "stop pleast"
[03:29:54] <SWPadnos> please
[03:30:08] <SWPadnos> rather than "STOP THIS BEFORE IT EATS MY ARM!!!"
[03:30:19] <|dareposte|> is abort a HAL input?
[03:30:25] <|dareposte|> err rather can it become one
[03:30:46] <SWPadnos> when you think about it in terms of loss of life or limb, little things like reducing the life of your VFD become less significant
[03:30:47] <cradek> you cannot turn off steppers and keep position
[03:30:48] <SWPadnos> (or they should)
[03:31:12] <SWPadnos> I bet halui has an abort input
[03:31:15] <SWPadnos> if it doesn't it could
[03:31:19] <SWPadnos> =,
[03:31:23] <SWPadnos> argh
[03:31:50] <|dareposte|> i like my life and limbs
[03:31:57] <SWPadnos> yes
[03:32:20] <|dareposte|> so i should probably just deal with having to rezero the machine after an estop
[03:32:25] <SWPadnos> yep
[03:33:19] <SWPadnos> the only good way to avoid that is to have a well-designed feedback system, with careful consideration of how it's powered and when (in addition to whatever it connects to, such as a breakout board or whatnot)
[03:33:21] <cradek> my stepper machines weigh (much) less than me. my servo machines weigh (much) more than me. this makes me generalize that stepper machines are not dangerous. I suspect this is wrong.
[03:33:40] <|dareposte|> maybe that they are less dangerous
[03:33:47] <SWPadnos> at low speeds, or with a running spindle (for mills), they'll hurt you pretty well
[03:34:16] <SWPadnos> you don't even need a motor to be moving to have a mill cut you
[03:34:21] <SWPadnos> the spindle doesn't even need to be on
[03:34:24] <cradek> that's true
[03:34:44] <SWPadnos> if the machine can cut metal, it can cut bone even easier
[03:34:44] <cradek> that's why we take the tool out before we peel the pcb off the table...
[03:34:48] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:35:04] <SWPadnos> unles syou have titanium limbs ;)
[03:36:43] <toastydeath> i have bad news guys
[03:36:48] <toastydeath> there are rumors that EA is making system shock 3
[03:37:30] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure that's going to matter much
[03:37:38] <toastydeath> why not?
[03:37:48] <cradek> should EA and 'system shock' mean something to me?
[03:37:56] <SWPadnos> because most of the people in here don't bother playing FPS games
[03:38:07] <toastydeath> but system shock was barely an FPS
[03:38:08] <SWPadnos> (I do from time to time, but I like stuff like Wolf:ET :) )
[03:38:11] <SWPadnos> oh
[03:38:15] <SWPadnos> see how much I know? ;)
[03:38:17] <toastydeath> haha
[03:38:46] <toastydeath> system shock 2 is one of those games where if you say "this is the greatest game of all time" you do not get much arguement
[03:38:59] <SWPadnos> ah, so it's TRON, only better :)
[03:39:04] <toastydeath> EA is a horrible, horrible game developer but they own the license to SS
[03:39:21] <toastydeath> the guys who did it the first time around moved to a different development house
[03:39:27] <SWPadnos> hmmm. did Portal ever get released?
[03:39:30] <toastydeath> and put out bioshock
[03:39:35] <toastydeath> portal did get released, and it was awesome
[03:39:43] <SWPadnos> bummer. I missed it
[03:40:00] <toastydeath> it's on steam if you want to try it, it's worth the money
[03:40:15] <SWPadnos> I'd prefer a Linux version
[03:40:18] <Unit41> wow after like 2 years i have a proper setup
[03:40:32] <Unit41> pathetic for even a hobo
[03:40:51] <Unit41> anyone want to whip me with a chain
[03:41:01] <SWPadnos> um. no thanks
[03:41:18] <Unit41> i was tricking, usually i have to pay
[03:41:19] <SWPadnos> you can try disabling estop and performing dangerous feats of milling instead
[03:41:30] <Unit41> lawl
[03:41:48] <Unit41> um. no thanks. i still have to connect everything
[03:46:43] <|dareposte|> the story of my life..
[03:47:16] <|dareposte|> a truckload of parts, a big spool of wire, and a crimp tool
[04:17:00] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: would just taking a blowtorch to the estop button , then dropping the chargepump in LN2 be much EASIER?????
[04:17:21] <SWPadnos> depends on which hand got caught in the spindle
[04:17:30] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: yours
[04:17:37] <SWPadnos> then the answer is no
[04:17:42] <JymmmEMC> ah, ok
[04:18:10] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Fine, see how you are... we'll just wire the estop button to shunt the mains instead
[04:18:19] <SWPadnos> ok
[04:18:30] <JymmmEMC> old-skool!!!
[04:27:24] <tomp2> jmkasunich: alt left btn drag will move the window so you can get at the buttons
[09:40:30] <mr_boo> hi
[09:45:43] <micges> hi
[09:47:45] <mr_boo> i've determined that emc only works for me when booted from live cd
[09:48:26] <mr_boo> that way it wont conflict any drivers/settings to my system
[09:48:45] <mr_boo> is that an ok and recommended way of using emc?
[09:50:47] <archivist_ub> the PC I use was installed from a live CD , it has a plug in tray to replace the hard disk to go back to windaz
[09:51:53] <mr_boo> wish i had fast pluggable hd's myself
[09:52:50] <mr_boo> hmm, i know i have 60 gig unpartitioned space
[09:55:30] <mr_boo> can i install another linux partition from the live cd without modifying the existing system?
[10:29:39] <mr_boo> archivist_ub: around?
[10:29:48] <archivist_ub> yes
[10:30:15] <mr_boo> is it smart to install the system on my unpartitioned space
[10:30:55] <archivist_ub> probably but Ive never done that so dunno
[10:31:08] <mr_boo> gonna try it
[10:31:20] <mr_boo> hope i wont screw the remaining partitions
[10:31:41] <mr_boo> do you think 30 gig is enough?
[10:32:34] <archivist_ub> mine is on 8gig
[10:32:45] <mr_boo> hmm
[10:33:09] <mr_boo> so i can pat myself on the back for having 60 gig free unpartitioned space
[10:33:15] <archivist_ub> I had a partition size problem with an old bios
[10:33:54] <mr_boo> anyway, lets roll
[10:33:56] <mr_boo> seeya
[10:34:14] <archivist_ub> brave soul
[10:41:04] <alex_joni> brave and foolish aren't that different
[11:47:04] <mr_boo> at last
[11:49:57] <mr_boo> i've chosen a new "xyz" configuration
[11:50:17] <mr_boo> i wanna play around with jog shuttle and simple g commands
[11:52:03] <mr_boo> looks cool!
[11:57:57] <mr_boo> wander what "joint 0 on limit switch error" means
[12:00:11] <rayh> You have a config that looks for limit switches.
[12:00:42] <mr_boo> ok
[12:00:54] <rayh> Are you setting this up with stepconf?
[12:01:06] <mr_boo> yeah i did
[12:01:27] <rayh> Run it again and where it shows limits select unused.
[12:02:01] <rayh> You can mouse over those boxes and use the center mouse button or click and drag the highlight down to the bottom.
[12:02:15] <rayh> button/wheel
[12:02:23] <mr_boo> i opened another config "stepper xyza" now and now it doesn't bother with limit switches
[12:02:33] <rayh> That's right.
[12:02:48] <rayh> The stepper configs don't either.
[12:02:50] <mr_boo> its a program example with the emc logo
[12:03:17] <mr_boo> as a matter of fact, i'm only using two motors at the moment
[12:03:22] <mr_boo> its a wire winder
[12:03:32] <rayh> Oh right.
[12:04:17] <rayh> Do you write gcode for the number of layers of wire?
[12:04:31] <mr_boo> thats what i plan to do
[12:04:38] <rayh> Okay.
[12:05:04] <mr_boo> the spindle is a 200/steps revolution motor driven at 1/8 microstepping
[12:05:29] <rayh> direct drive?
[12:05:38] <mr_boo> yes
[12:05:58] <rayh> How fast do you want to spin that?
[12:06:14] <mr_boo> tbh, i'm not sure of the capabilities of it
[12:06:30] <rayh> okay.
[12:06:40] <mr_boo> would be nice if i could try that out somehow
[12:07:24] <rayh> You could think of it as a linear with 1600 steps per unit.
[12:07:44] <mr_boo> sounds reasonable
[12:07:48] <rayh> Or an angular with the same.
[12:08:09] <mr_boo> the graphical representation on screen wont be relevant in my case
[12:08:17] <rayh> Right.
[12:08:28] <mr_boo> how do i flush the existing g-code
[12:08:36] <rayh> In fact I'd use a non plotting gui
[12:08:47] <rayh> Just load a new one.
[12:09:28] <mr_boo> but i can write my own right
[12:09:34] <rayh> I've not tried loading an empty file but one with an m2 on a single line would work.
[12:09:38] <rayh> Yep.
[12:09:52] <alex_joni> sure you can.. but I don't think you want to
[12:10:07] <alex_joni> probably running tkemc or xemc should be good enough
[12:10:12] <mr_boo> i've figured out i cant edit the lines at the bottom
[12:10:18] <rayh> It is easiest if you put them in ~/emc2/ncfiles.
[12:10:32] <alex_joni> mr_boo: no, you can't.. AXIS doesn't allow editing of programs
[12:10:38] <alex_joni> it only opens/runs programs
[12:10:38] <mr_boo> so the emc2 app is not an editor?
[12:10:43] <mr_boo> i see
[12:10:46] <alex_joni> nope, it's a machine controller
[12:10:53] <rayh> If you start the file browser and click to emc2/ncfiles
[12:10:58] <alex_joni> there are tons of editors out there, you can pick your favourite ont
[12:11:00] <alex_joni> one
[12:11:02] <archivist_ub> I keep an editor open and just reload
[12:11:10] <mr_boo> sounds wise
[12:11:15] <alex_joni> right, that's how it's supposed to work
[12:11:21] <rayh> then right click over an empty part of the display and select new file it will create an empty.
[12:11:51] <rayh> I'd use the mini interface cause it has an editor built in.
[12:11:58] <rayh> But that's just me.
[12:11:58] <mr_boo> i'm a total newbie but for what i've seen so far its the coolest software on the planet
[12:12:10] <rayh> Yes it is.
[12:12:14] <archivist_ub> methinks would be nice if axis could be extended one day to edit when not running
[12:12:20] <mr_boo> wish i had a cnc mill now
[12:12:33] <rayh> Next week.
[12:12:36] <archivist_ub> make one
[12:13:03] <rayh> You drag the wire back and forth over the spool?
[12:13:20] <rayh> as it spins?
[12:13:28] <mr_boo> thats the plan yes
[12:13:42] <mr_boo> maybe i should post a picture of my machine
[12:13:53] <rayh> That should work fine.
[12:14:03] <mr_boo> here, http://www.carmi.se/misterstarshine/img/DSC00217.JPG
[12:14:41] <mr_boo> looks a bit messy
[12:15:04] <archivist_ub> the real things look messy
[12:15:20] <archivist_ub> we have 3 here
[12:15:30] <mr_boo> the spindle part of the system is very simple
[12:15:58] <rayh> I see that.
[12:16:01] <mr_boo> the threaded bar is intended as wire guide and i need to figure out how many steps required for traveling a certain distance
[12:16:20] <rayh> What is the thread pitch?
[12:17:06] <mr_boo> 1.2mm i think
[12:17:17] <mr_boo> but its not direct drived from stepper
[12:17:30] <rayh> What is that ratio?
[12:18:12] <mr_boo> around 9/19
[12:18:19] <archivist_ub> unless the back tension is good enough it will jump off the guide
[12:18:28] <mr_boo> of course
[12:19:02] <mr_boo> im not entirely confident this is actually gonna work
[12:19:11] <rayh> Is that a 1.8 degree per step motor or 7.5?
[12:19:21] <mr_boo> 7.5
[12:19:22] <alex_joni> wheee.. they discovered water on mars
[12:19:29] <rayh> Okay.
[12:19:31] <alex_joni> http://www.phys.ncku.edu.tw/~astrolab/mirrors/apod/image/0504/WaterOnMars2_gcc.jpg
[12:20:08] <mr_boo> this will give me a clue of the travel distance versus number of steps
[12:22:19] <rayh> for mm units you'd use 84.444444444
[12:23:13] <rayh> Then you'd use the diameter of the wire times the number of turns for the total travel for a layer.
[12:23:56] <rayh> Do you use more than one wire diameter?
[12:24:17] <mr_boo> that will happen later on but its easy to recalculate
[12:24:39] <mr_boo> first step is to be aware of traveling distance as function of number of step pulses
[12:24:50] <rayh> Sure. I was thinking of a general program where wire diameter was one variable and number of layers another.
[12:25:12] <rayh> And number of turns a third.
[12:25:31] <rayh> But that will come as you get into gcode.
[12:26:31] <archivist_ub> some calcs and a subroutine in gcode
[12:27:10] <rayh> If the wire does hop over the thread you could make a simple nut that the wire threads through.
[12:28:08] <rayh> That's the idea archivist_ub
[12:28:37] <archivist_ub> but leave about a wire space per layer
[12:30:22] <mr_boo> i've calculated that 768 steps should travel 1.25 mm
[12:30:28] <mr_boo> now i wanna put this to the test
[12:30:50] <rayh> good thinking. the wire will drop into the groove of the layer below.
[12:31:45] <archivist_ub> * archivist_ub chalenges mr_boo to do wave winding
[12:32:38] <mr_boo> can i write g codes to the "MDI command" field for testing?
[12:33:16] <rayh> Yes you can. It will only make the one set of moves (block of gcode)
[12:33:47] <mr_boo> * mr_boo googles for some g codes
[12:34:04] <mr_boo> i know the first set of g codes are for positioning and traveling along axes
[12:34:05] <rayh> What is the diameter of your wire?
[12:34:21] <rayh> Which axis is the spindle?
[12:34:23] <mr_boo> i haven't even rigged that up yet but it will be around 0.1mm
[12:34:39] <rayh> Okay. so 10 turns per mm
[12:34:46] <mr_boo> spindle is on x and guide on y
[12:35:02] <archivist_ub> hmm google fails for real wave winding, seems the term has been stolen for as different connection method
[12:35:09] <rayh> How many turns
[12:35:30] <mr_boo> haven't decided yet but i know i want something to yield around 300 ohm
[12:36:08] <rayh> Ah. What width will the spool be?
[12:36:22] <rayh> This first sample run?
[12:36:36] <mr_boo> inner diameter is around 6mm and width is 7.4mm
[12:37:11] <rayh> so 74 turns with a 0.1mm wire?
[12:37:13] <mr_boo> but im gonna get the hang of emc first before i rig stuff
[12:37:22] <mr_boo> yeah
[12:37:36] <rayh> Sure. I'm just trying to imagine gcode to do an imaginary spool.
[12:38:02] <rayh> so start with g0 x0 y0
[12:38:31] <mr_boo> maybe i should edit a file now
[12:38:43] <mr_boo> are they *.ngc
[12:39:20] <rayh> then g1 fxx x73 y7.4
[12:39:22] <mr_boo> i'm in ~/emc2/nc_files/examples/ now
[12:40:04] <mr_boo> maybe i should copy and modify an existing file was my thought
[12:40:27] <rayh> brb
[12:41:37] <rayh> If you right click and select create document and empty file it will make a blank one.
[12:41:51] <rayh> Then name it myfirstspool.ngc
[12:42:10] <rayh> Then left click on and that will open it in gedit.
[12:42:19] <rayh> on it.
[12:43:05] <mr_boo> ok
[12:43:53] <jepler> you may not be able to create or edit files in the "examples" folder (it's actually a link into a system directory). use ~/emc2/nc_files instead.
[12:44:04] <mr_boo> ok
[12:44:49] <rayh> ah thanks jeff. I didn't see the examples added there.
[12:45:05] <rayh> back up one to nc_files
[12:46:37] <jepler> * jepler slaps himself for mixing "folder" and "directory" in the same sentence.
[12:47:10] <mr_boo> it wants an end command or "percent sign" at the end of file as it appears
[12:47:41] <mr_boo> my myfirstspool.ngc only had the line "g0 x0 y0" atm
[12:47:41] <rayh> Yes. I'd use m2
[12:47:44] <jepler> yes; I always write "M2" at the end of all my gcode files, though there are other things you can write instead
[12:48:11] <rayh> Automatic spool changer? m60
[12:48:13] <mr_boo> worked just fine
[12:48:58] <rayh> If you've set your unit scale so that one unit is a rotation and one linear unit is a mm
[12:49:20] <rayh> you can program using real winding and length numbers.
[12:49:39] <mr_boo> yeah, i know there are g codes to configure such things
[12:50:01] <rayh> so x74 y7.4 would give 74 wraps
[12:50:04] <mr_boo> i need to tell emc that 768 steps corresponds to 1.25 mm travel
[12:50:09] <rayh> turns excuse me.
[12:50:30] <rayh> I'd make that 1mm and the number of steps required for that.
[12:50:50] <mr_boo> is that a g code for that or should i tweak the stepper setup for that?
[12:51:02] <rayh> tweak the stepper setup.
[12:52:39] <rayh> The rotary isn't quite going to conform to the stepconf X axis page.
[12:53:45] <rayh> You could put 1 in the leadscrew pitch and it should come out the way I'm thinking of it.
[12:54:44] <mr_boo> that makes sense
[12:56:06] <rayh> I got 1013.3 for axis scale on y
[12:56:15] <SWPadnos> other way :)
[12:56:36] <SWPadnos> 768/1.25, not 768*1.25 I think
[12:56:37] <rayh> I just filled in the blanks in stepconf.
[12:56:41] <SWPadnos> ah
[12:56:48] <SWPadnos> it seems wrong though
[12:57:06] <rayh> And it's early here;)
[12:57:14] <SWPadnos> 614.4
[12:57:34] <rayh> Steps per rev = 48
[12:57:35] <SWPadnos> it's early for me here ;)
[12:57:44] <rayh> microstepping = 8
[12:57:46] <SWPadnos> oh, could be a different axis then
[12:58:07] <rayh> pulley teeth 9:19
[12:58:42] <SWPadnos> I was looking at the 768 steps=1.25mm thing
[12:59:01] <SWPadnos> which is 960 if you do it wrong
[12:59:08] <SWPadnos> see - its early ;)
[12:59:39] <SWPadnos> wow, you sure can get cheap flights to Houston for this weekend
[12:59:46] <rayh> phone bbiab
[13:00:06] <mr_boo> i'm playing around with the axis test feature
[13:00:12] <mr_boo> having lots of fun :)
[13:00:18] <SWPadnos> heh
[13:00:33] <skunkworks_> SWPadnos: how is your sister?
[13:00:58] <SWPadnos> she and the kids (and the ex) got out before the storm hit, but she;s not sure there's a house to go back to
[13:01:27] <skunkworks_> yikes. Glad she is taking her time. sounds pretty rough right now.
[13:01:46] <SWPadnos> apparently there's damage to the causeway linking Galveston island to the mainland, and they don't expect to have power for weeks
[13:02:11] <SWPadnos> she wants to go back to see what's left, but she'll need a boat to get there
[13:05:42] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: perfect excuse to buy a yacht
[13:05:49] <SWPadnos> um, yeah
[13:05:49] <alex_joni> and lend it to her for a couple days/weeks
[13:08:32] <SWPadnos> well, my wife did bring up the fact that houseboats are mobile, and somewhat less susceptible to flooding ;)
[13:08:38] <SWPadnos> not that we can afford one
[13:09:35] <rayh> Maybe a fly over would tell the tale.
[13:10:15] <rayh> Would certainly be a good use for sat images on the web this week.
[13:10:28] <SWPadnos> I just saw a video shot on Saturday, and the couple of buildings I recognized as being near her house were pretty unscathed. there wasn't even a lot of water in the street there
[13:10:33] <SWPadnos> heh, yeah
[13:13:41] <mr_boo> rayh: i've found out my spindle motor only can do around 200 rpm
[13:13:46] <mr_boo> rayh: does this make sense?
[13:13:53] <rayh> Sure.
[13:13:56] <archivist_ub> yup
[13:14:13] <mr_boo> faster than that and it stalled
[13:14:24] <mr_boo> and this is at 8th microstepping mode
[13:14:29] <archivist_ub> steppers are not good at speed
[13:14:46] <rayh> What voltage have you got to it's driver?
[13:15:42] <mr_boo> 12V
[13:15:50] <mr_boo> but higher voltages didn't help
[13:15:56] <mr_boo> not higher current setting
[13:16:14] <mr_boo> gonna take ages to wind these fellas
[13:16:33] <rayh> I know nothing about that driver but with a gecko higher voltage will encourage a faster spin.
[13:16:50] <mr_boo> remember that my motors are a joke
[13:16:55] <mr_boo> as well as driver
[13:16:59] <skunkworks_> heh
[13:17:13] <rayh> How many layers do you guess you'll need.
[13:17:17] <mr_boo> the driver is an A3977 based one
[13:18:13] <mr_boo> but i've got some prodrive 2000's that i'm gonna use when i get real stepper motors
[13:18:25] <mr_boo> hopefully all three of them can be used then
[13:19:09] <rayh> Well you've got a start with what you have and 3 wraps a minute is better than hand winding.
[13:19:54] <mr_boo> it is
[13:31:52] <mr_boo> ah, finally done with the stepper setup
[13:32:14] <skunkworks_> mr_boo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_OUNLruaVQ
[13:32:15] <mr_boo> maybe i should rig stuff up now before writing code
[13:34:16] <mr_boo> must install flash first to this partition
[13:36:35] <mr_boo> wish i had gear like that
[13:36:39] <mr_boo> lucky bastard
[13:36:44] <mr_boo> ;)
[13:37:12] <alex_joni> he sold it :P
[13:37:32] <mr_boo> to buy something better i believe
[13:42:10] <skunkworks_> na - to build a garage...
[13:42:12] <skunkworks_> ;)
[13:42:35] <mr_boo> rayh: have you figured out the g code for a wire winder?
[13:43:39] <cradek> I'd set up the rotary as 1 unit per turn, because it's natural to talk in turns instead of degrees
[13:43:55] <cradek> so if the coil is 1" long and you want 100 turns, you'd program G1 X1 A100
[13:46:08] <mr_boo> about g codes, would G1 X3 Y4 make a straight line between (0,0) and (3,4)?
[13:46:17] <cradek> yes
[13:46:46] <SWPadnos> between "wherever you are" and (3,4)
[13:46:59] <mr_boo> i see
[13:47:06] <mr_boo> i guess G2 is for relative motion
[13:47:22] <cradek> G2 is an arc
[13:47:27] <cradek> have a look at the gcode quick reference
[13:47:31] <SWPadnos> g2 is for arcs. look up the G-code quick reference on the linucxnx website
[13:47:35] <cradek> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html//gcode.html
[13:47:39] <mr_boo> thanks
[13:47:41] <SWPadnos> err - linuxcnc
[13:47:47] <cradek> you know it's good advice if two people give it at the same time
[13:48:16] <SWPadnos> even if one mis-spells it
[13:48:23] <mr_boo> :)
[13:48:32] <SWPadnos> (<1/2 cup of coffee so far, so I have an excuse)
[13:48:46] <archivist_ub> we have spelling on IRC?
[13:48:51] <alex_joni> pulled out your IV again?
[13:50:11] <SWPadnos> it fell out overnight
[13:50:57] <alex_joni> http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_n2629_v126/ai_19841026
[13:53:51] <SWPadnos> heh
[14:38:36] <skunkworks_> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64683
[14:41:12] <archivist_ub> I have 4 axis in one port what is he doing wrong
[14:41:26] <cradek> he doesn't say whether he's out of inputs or outputs
[14:42:25] <skunkworks_> does hal_input work both ways? IIRC it does..
[14:42:30] <cradek> archivist_ub: winding activation outputs for three axes takes up 12 outputs...
[14:42:37] <SWPadnos> skunkworks, yes
[14:42:51] <cradek> skunkworks_: yes but don't recommend that unless you know what he needs the IO for
[14:43:07] <SWPadnos> I think the only output type is an LED or something
[14:43:24] <archivist_ub> yes well not using proper stepper drivers is doing something wrong :)
[14:43:24] <cradek> Pokeys emulates keyboard and joystick
[14:43:34] <cradek> that's just probably not an appropriate device
[14:43:53] <skunkworks_> it would not be realtime for sure :)P
[14:44:02] <SWPadnos> unless he's got a lot of non-RT inputs to move there, and can use the parallel ports as output
[14:44:11] <skunkworks_> yikes http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64675
[14:44:39] <SWPadnos> the poKeys is 49.99EUR for the terminal version
[14:44:50] <SWPadnos> $75-ish, might as well get a 7i43
[14:46:02] <cradek> skunkworks_: uh, maybe use the amp-enable output? jeez
[14:46:24] <SWPadnos> or machine on
[14:46:24] <cradek> skunkworks_: if you do anything else you'll get pid buildup while the amps are off, which is bad
[14:46:30] <cradek> SWPadnos: same
[14:46:52] <SWPadnos> ah, well then :)
[14:46:58] <skunkworks_> right
[14:48:19] <cradek> wtf? http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64517
[14:48:23] <SWPadnos> I guess I'd make it so it powers up the drives in estop reset, but enables them in machine on
[14:48:52] <SWPadnos> Magellan or Copernicus, I think
[14:49:01] <SWPadnos> one of those anyway
[14:49:24] <SWPadnos> I think the accessibility tools include a magnifier, but I'm not sure about a screen reader
[14:49:25] <cradek> [RED]Need Help!-[/RED]
[14:49:30] <cradek> those are so irritating
[14:49:38] <BigJohnT> I hate them
[14:49:49] <SWPadnos> ah - gnopernicus :)
[14:49:58] <BigJohnT> if your posting everyone assumes you need help
[14:49:58] <cradek> well it's not just me then (I hate web bbses)
[14:50:19] <BigJohnT> I think Benny did that :)
[14:50:27] <jepler> SWPadnos: the screen reader is unlikely to work for apps based on tk such as tkemc or axis.
[14:50:29] <SWPadnos> what are you guys talking about?
[14:50:29] <cradek> whee
[14:50:42] <cradek> I don't see any indication that the question has anything to do with using EMC
[14:50:45] <skunkworks_> elitist!!
[14:51:05] <SWPadnos> jepler, right. but though I think accessibility software is good in general, blind people shouldn't be running milling machines
[14:51:31] <archivist_ub> I met a blind wood turner!
[14:51:34] <jepler> SWPadnos: that's racist
[14:51:40] <skunkworks_> emc2 - not for the blind?
[14:51:43] <archivist_ub> he felt the work
[14:52:06] <SWPadnos> there was a Linux distribution for the blind a few years ago. the entire install had speech synthesis available. the only thing you had to do was get the CD in the drive right side up
[14:52:25] <cradek> I can do that in only two tries
[14:52:29] <SWPadnos> heh
[14:52:36] <BigJohnT> my grandfather fixed cars after he went blind from diabetes by feel
[14:52:50] <SWPadnos> you don't want to check tool position by feel ...
[14:56:23] <BigJohnT> cradek: some people take more than two tries
[15:07:10] <mr_boo> gotta go
[15:07:17] <mr_boo> i wanna thank for all help
[15:07:30] <SWPadnos> have fun , see you
[15:07:36] <mr_boo> be back later
[16:06:56] <pierp> hi all
[16:07:11] <pierp> I have just intalled version 2.2.5
[16:07:32] <pierp> but I have some problems with latency
[16:08:04] <pierp> the rtai latency test gives me several overruns
[16:08:29] <pierp> which disappear after switchin from nvidia to vesa driver
[16:08:50] <alex_joni> pierp: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TroubleShooting#Unexpected_realtime_delay_check_dmesg_for_details
[16:09:02] <pierp> but axis won't start with vesa driver
[16:09:06] <alex_joni> yup, nvidia driver is one of the known culprits for bad RT performance
[16:09:16] <pierp> yes I know
[16:09:18] <pierp> alex
[16:09:28] <alex_joni> installing the nvidia driver will surely bork a good working vesa driver
[16:09:30] <pierp> that's why I switched to vesa
[16:09:38] <alex_joni> not sure if you can fix that without reinstalling
[16:09:56] <pierp> but as I said axis don't want to start
[16:10:02] <pierp> doesn't
[16:10:09] <alex_joni> nvidia (the binary driver) does some odd things to the software Mesa install
[16:10:20] <alex_joni> even if you uninstall the nvidia driver, things stay messed up
[16:10:53] <pierp> alex_joni: even if I load vesa module?
[16:10:59] <alex_joni> I don't know if (or how) you can fix it, I just know people have complained about this before
[16:11:02] <alex_joni> yes
[16:11:06] <SWPadnos> can you try uninstalling (with --purge) both nvidia and mesa, then reinstalling mesa?
[16:11:18] <SWPadnos> I don't know if it will work, but if it does that would be good to know
[16:11:28] <pierp> ok
[16:11:40] <alex_joni> I remember poking it until it worked.. but this was at least a couple years ago
[16:12:29] <pierp> I have official nvidia driver installed (legacy-drivers)
[16:12:44] <SWPadnos> I wonder if removing then installing the vesa driver might also be necessary or helpful
[16:12:54] <pierp> and mesa libs 6.5.2
[16:12:58] <alex_joni> what does official mean?
[16:13:05] <pierp> binary
[16:13:14] <pierp> from Nvidia
[16:13:28] <alex_joni> the one that's not open source..
[16:13:33] <pierp> yes
[16:13:39] <alex_joni> I think it's called 'nvidia' vs 'nv' the open source one
[16:13:52] <pierp> yes
[16:13:57] <alex_joni> anyways.. I would try to uninstall the 'nvidia' driver
[16:14:06] <pierp> ok
[16:14:22] <pierp> I'll try and unmerge the driver
[16:14:35] <alex_joni> also .. AXIS is probably failing because of missing GLX extensions
[16:14:46] <alex_joni> it's known to happen that you simply need to add the option to Xorg.conf
[16:15:24] <pierp> ah... I'll have a look at xorg.conf
[16:15:41] <alex_joni> Section "Module"
[16:15:45] <alex_joni> Load "glx"
[16:15:52] <pierp> yes ;)
[16:16:12] <SWPadnos> so you're on Gentoo then?
[16:16:28] <pierp> SWPadnos: yes
[16:16:55] <alex_joni> how much of a pain was it to compile emc2?
[16:17:02] <pierp> fast
[16:17:14] <pierp> not a pain at all
[16:17:17] <pierp> really
[16:17:24] <alex_joni> great
[16:17:42] <alex_joni> got some info what kernel/rtai/gcc/python you used?
[16:18:00] <pierp>
[16:18:05] <pierp> RTAI 3.6
[16:18:19] <pierp> gcc version 4.1.2 (Gentoo 4.1.2 p1.1)
[16:18:23] <SWPadnos> got an ebuild for us? :)
[16:18:27] <alex_joni> if you have >= 1G of ram, you should update to 3.6.1 rtai
[16:18:41] <pierp> nope
[16:19:11] <pierp> SWPadnos: that was an idea but I think it is beyond me
[16:19:24] <alex_joni> the ebuild is easy
[16:19:27] <SWPadnos> yeah, me too. jepler could do it, it's python :)
[16:19:34] <alex_joni> supporting the millions of users is painfull
[16:19:44] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is kidding..
[16:19:53] <pierp> brb
[16:21:50] <alex_joni> pierp: glxinfo give you faster testing if it works
[16:21:51] <pierp> tried to restart X with vesa and glx but axis sent a BadWindow (invalid Window parameter) error
[16:22:06] <alex_joni> glxinfo | grep GLX I think
[16:22:17] <pierp> weird
[16:22:24] <pierp> GLX missing
[16:22:33] <alex_joni> yup.. mesa is messed up
[16:23:32] <SWPadnos> that's why you remove mesa and nvidia with purge - they both fiddle with some GL library. mesa wants its own library there, nvidia symlinks it somewhere else
[16:24:06] <SWPadnos> getting rid of both might remove the file, which might enable a reinstall to work
[16:24:10] <SWPadnos> but it's just a theory
[16:24:21] <pierp> ok I'll have a go with it
[16:34:49] <SWPadnos> Jymm, get back to work. slashdot seems to be down
[16:35:07] <SWPadnos> or at least ask.slashdot.com is
[16:35:31] <SWPadnos> uh - .org - you know what I mean
[16:36:06] <SWPadnos> hmmm. actually, everything but the front page seems dead. I wonder if the database server got slashdotted
[16:43:03] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: works here :)
[16:43:09] <alex_joni> alas slow
[16:43:10] <SWPadnos> yep, it's back here too
[16:54:07] <owad> I bought this stack of smashed lathes on Saturday: <http://sandbox.owad.org/lathes.jpg>. I'm hoping to retrofit one for CNC, and turn another into a rotary table for the router.
[16:57:05] <alex_joni> owad: cool
[16:58:11] <owad> for the rotary table, I was thinking about just replacing the motor with a stepper, and putting another chuck in the tailstock. Is that a reasonable way to go about it?
[17:03:51] <alex_joni> depends what kind of rotary you want/need
[17:05:40] <owad> What kinds of rotary are there?
[17:07:03] <archivist_ub> various, platform and on the end of a spindle
[17:07:41] <archivist_ub> I use rotary for gear cutting
[17:09:05] <owad> this'll be on the wood router, so I'll probably be using it mostly for carving/models/that sort of stuff
[17:10:01] <archivist_ub> theres a goos vid on youtube of someone engraging wood objects on a rotary
[17:10:05] <archivist_ub> good
[17:12:08] <owad> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0bh2SUeGHI this?
[17:16:12] <archivist_ub> archivist_ub has changed the topic to: Welcome! EMC (Enhanced Machine Controller) is a linux-based opensource CNC control. | Latest release: EMC 2.2.6 | http://www.linuxcnc.org | http://wiki.linuxcnc.orgbleh cant see it I need to reload firefox, been up too many days
[17:16:12] <ChanServ> ChanServ has changed the topic to: Welcome! EMC (Enhanced Machine Controller) is a linux-based opensource CNC control. | Latest release: EMC 2.2.6 | http://www.linuxcnc.org | http://wiki.linuxcnc.org
[17:16:44] <archivist_ub> heh what happened there
[17:17:42] <archivist_ub> I was just saying bleh cant see it I need to reload firefox, been up too many days
[17:18:24] <alex_joni> archivist_ub: somehow you had a /topic in front :)
[17:18:40] <archivist_ub> but I never type /topic!
[17:18:48] <alex_joni> maybe clicked the topic?
[17:19:10] <archivist_ub> dunno I was watching the keyboard
[17:19:33] <alex_joni> why would you want to do that?
[17:19:37] <archivist_ub> hmm I did copy the wiki url a few secs ago
[17:21:44] <SWPadnos> if you're using chatzilla, that may have left the topic focused, and it is editable
[17:21:45] <archivist_ub> anyway owad, now firefox, restarted it wasnt that one but you got the idea
[17:22:12] <SWPadnos> at least it is sometimes
[17:22:12] <archivist_ub> using xchat
[17:22:20] <SWPadnos> ah
[17:22:56] <archivist_ub> usually one gets a telling off, you dont have ops etc
[17:24:05] <archivist_ub> as " #php-support :You need to be a channel operator to do that"
[17:24:18] <archivist_ub> thats where I can op mysqlf
[17:29:33] <toastatwork> if +t isn't set anyone can change the topic
[17:29:36] <toastatwork> +t was not set
[17:29:42] <toastatwork> now it is
[17:31:08] <alex_joni> toastatwork: you can change it all you want.. ChanServ will put it back
[17:31:39] <toastatwork> alex_joni: just because chanserv puts it back doesn't mean you can't chagne the topic, which is what i was explaining regarding not having ops yet still being able to change said topic
[17:31:44] <toastatwork> *change
[17:41:03] <toastatwork> *change
[17:42:02] <alex_joni> *change
[17:46:46] <toastatwork> oops
[17:46:55] <toastatwork> *change is now a meme
[18:52:06] <Didier> Hello everybody
[18:52:48] <Didier> Yesterday you talk me about inversed deadband
[18:53:27] <Didier> I use the last livecd and i can't find comp ?
[18:54:00] <SWPadnos> how did you look for it?
[18:54:16] <SWPadnos> you should be able to type comp --install at a command line
[18:54:20] <Didier> in the home
[18:54:24] <SWPadnos> comp --install something
[18:54:35] <SWPadnos> if you're trying to find it in a menu, you will fail :)
[18:54:54] <Didier> yes but i have command not found , sorry
[18:55:00] <SWPadnos> ok :)
[18:55:32] <SWPadnos> that's a little strange. you may need to install emc2-dev
[18:56:02] <Didier> ok i need to connect to internet, then
[18:56:04] <SWPadnos> actually, I think you need to install a couple of things so comp can do its job. you need at least build-essential (for the compiler)
[18:56:07] <SWPadnos> yes, I think so
[18:56:20] <Didier> thanks
[18:56:57] <Didier> it will not be easy
[18:57:06] <Didier> thanks a lot, bye
[18:57:19] <SWPadnos> there is a section of the manual on using comp, but I'm not sure it tells you what needs to be installed before using it
[18:57:21] <SWPadnos> see you
[18:57:31] <Didier> bye bye
[18:58:06] <SWPadnos> well, I guess you do need emc2-dev
[19:06:34] <jepler> SWPadnos: the wiki page ContributedComponents does say to install emc2-dev and build-essential. I don't know what the pdf manuals say, I didn't check
[19:06:57] <SWPadnos> right - I got the same info from the wiki page and also didn't check the manual
[19:27:48] <pierp> hi all, I was trying to run the emc latency test
[19:28:07] <pierp> but perhaps I do something wrong
[19:28:19] <pierp> as I get an error
[19:28:31] <pierp> about pyvcp
[19:28:45] <pierp> and vcpparse.py
[19:29:21] <pierp> realtime RTAI latency test works with no overrun
[19:35:45] <cradek> pierp: if you are waiting for an answer, be aware that everyone is waiting for you to say what the error is
[19:35:59] <pierp> ahem
[19:36:05] <pierp> sorry cradek
[19:36:17] <pierp> File "/home/pier/Programmi/emc2/bin/pyvcp", line 38, in ?
[19:36:17] <pierp> import vcpparse
[19:36:38] <pierp> File "/home/pier/Programmi/emc2/lib/python/vcpparse.py", line 24, in ?
[19:36:38] <pierp> import xml.dom.ext
[19:37:23] <pierp> ImportError: No module named ext
[19:37:23] <pierp> lat.hal:5: pyvcp exited without becoming ready
[19:38:43] <cradek> I believe that should come from the package python-xml
[19:38:50] <cradek> on my system it does anyway
[19:38:51] <jepler> is this an os other than ubuntu 6.06 / ubuntu 8.04?
[19:39:22] <SWPadnos> gentoo
[19:39:33] <pierp> gentoo
[19:39:48] <cradek> ah, you are missing some python xml stuff then, you will have to figure out how to get it
[19:39:59] <pierp> perhaps some missing flag in python
[19:40:30] <maddash> totally unrelated to EMC: why don't GTK2 button accelerators work? i.e., a button with the text, "OK" where the "O" is underlined does not activated when the O-key is pressed
[19:40:34] <pierp> ok thanks, I'll check the flags in python
[19:40:51] <cradek> maddash: alt-O?
[19:41:00] <maddash> oooooh
[19:41:12] <maddash> thanks, cradek, I'll try that.
[19:41:34] <maddash> crap late for class
[19:42:21] <SWPadnos> he sure is aptly named
[19:43:30] <jepler> maddash: http://library.gnome.org/users/user-guide/latest/shortcuts-access.html.en
[19:43:32] <jepler> argh too late
[19:44:08] <jepler> apparently it's part of the gnome human interface guidelines that access keys always are paired with alt even when the active control is not one that uses unmodified keys.
[19:44:36] <SWPadnos> that's a good thing
[19:45:44] <nibbs> ello
[19:46:23] <nibbs> anyone using a taig closed system?
[19:48:27] <SWPadnos> no
[19:48:34] <SWPadnos> do you mean closed loop?
[19:55:11] <nibbs> yes
[19:55:57] <nibbs> i'm wondering if there are any hal files for the taig
[19:56:36] <SWPadnos> I don't think there are any. What sits between the PC and the motors?
[19:57:51] <nibbs> a black box!
[19:58:11] <SWPadnos> heh. well, if you can get specs for what's in that black box, someone can help you :)
[19:58:34] <nibbs> tahnks, what sort of info would be handy?
[19:58:44] <nibbs> pinouts?
[20:05:39] <pierp> well emerging pyxml made latency test to work
[20:05:47] <pierp> thanks cradek
[20:10:00] <SWPadnos> nibbs, if it's parallel port connected, there's hope that pinouts would help
[20:10:15] <SWPadnos> if it's a serial or USB-connected box, then you'll need some hardware changes
[20:10:53] <SWPadnos> if it's a stepper system that also has encoder (shouldn't be, but I just found such a description on the web), then you'll need to think about which parts you want to keep :)
[20:10:56] <nibbs> yep its parallel
[20:11:10] <nibbs> yep its got encoders
[20:12:19] <archivist_ub> servos or steppers
[20:12:50] <nibbs> http://www.microproto.com/MMDSLS.htm
[20:12:53] <nibbs> steppers
[20:13:13] <nibbs> its runnig fine on mach3
[20:14:20] <skunkworks> it probably just has a missed step pin that runs an estop signal or something.
[20:18:57] <archivist_ub> hmm broken website on my firefox
[20:19:10] <nibbs> yep mine too ff3?
[20:19:26] <nibbs> txt missing?
[20:20:49] <archivist_ub> yes , ive looked at source and its there
[20:21:33] <nibbs> ff3 seems a bit buggy. no more drag n drop of images into apps as well
[20:21:42] <SWPadnos> hit ctrl-A and you'll be able to see the text
[20:22:00] <archivist_ub> its built in frontpage so.......
[20:22:12] <SWPadnos> with FF3 you can set the style to "no style"
[20:22:14] <nibbs> mmm..
[20:22:26] <archivist_ub> heh good cheat
[20:22:26] <SWPadnos> you'll lose the background but the text will be visible
[20:23:22] <nibbs> i hope his electrical engineering skills are better than his web dev skills, frontpage? pah!
[20:24:39] <SWPadnos> well, it looks like there isn't much technical info on that site
[20:25:08] <archivist_ub> I wonder if he uses the encoders to fix microstep errors
[20:25:13] <SWPadnos> he does say that the DSLS hardware does the work of making sure the motors follow the command position
[20:25:30] <SWPadnos> so it seems like it's still a step/dir system as far as the PC is concerned
[20:25:47] <nibbs> yes, i upgraded from the previous system to this one to cure my lost steps
[20:25:53] <SWPadnos> there aren't enough I/Os on a single parallel port to have step/dir out and encoder in for 4 axes
[20:26:21] <SWPadnos> the cure for lost steps is to run slower or get bigger motors (or in some cases, to change drivers or increase the power supply voltage)
[20:28:10] <cradek> Includes: DSLS Electronic Control Driver Unit
[20:28:20] <nibbs> the encoders cured my lost steps and helped me run rapids a little quicker
[20:28:32] <SWPadnos> cool. glad it worked out :)
[20:28:44] <nibbs> me too, it wasnt cheap!
[20:40:14] <jepler> this page http://www.microproto.com/DSLS.htm makes it sound like it is encoder counting + PID in an external box, similar to gecko g320
[20:41:52] <archivist_ub> * archivist_ub contemplates what that actually is
[20:41:52] <jepler> but .. who knows .. it's "proprietary"
[20:41:58] <cradek> and advanced
[20:42:36] <archivist_ub> I imagine we could erm do something similar
[20:46:27] <jepler> one thing I'm currently thinking would be cool is an open source CPLD-based stepper driver aiming for a gecko-like feature set (whatever exactly that means :-P) and a wide range of max voltage/current capacities by allowing choice of transistors and high-side drivers.
[20:47:01] <archivist_ub> with over current for short term
[20:48:01] <jepler> oh wow microproto.com's software (i.e., mach3) has "Complete G-code set of ALL G-codes."
[20:48:33] <archivist_ub> heh for what value of ALL
[20:49:23] <alex_joni> it even has G1001
[20:50:19] <alex_joni> jepler: and the CPLD would be on a pci card, and only the power stage outside of the PC?
[20:51:07] <archivist_ub> that might be a bit noise prone
[20:51:29] <jepler> alex_joni: no, I'm not talking about step generation and sarcastically reinventing mesa
[20:51:31] <alex_joni> optical link?
[20:51:38] <jepler> I mean the driver itself, current sense, etc
[20:51:59] <alex_joni> hmmm..
[20:52:07] <alex_joni> why not have it all in the same fpga?
[20:52:16] <alex_joni> stepgen + part of the driver?
[20:53:16] <jepler> one of mesa's add-on boards has that but I don't think hostmot has the support for it. and I think the current control is open-loop only, not closed-loop.
[20:53:22] <issy> you can put the stepgen , but bether if it control directlt the mictrosteps
[20:54:08] <alex_joni> hmm.. ok
[20:54:26] <issy> so depending of the speed , smaller or biger microstep
[20:54:57] <archivist_ub> with the feedback it can easily move to the correct place, no need to suffer microstep error any more
[20:55:01] <issy> and outside just a single H bridge
[20:55:47] <issy> if you want to have fast moves , forget the microsteps , but at small speed no other way
[20:56:13] <issy> The only driver I know to do that is the gecko 203
[20:56:21] <archivist_ub> may respond faster any way as its under control
[20:56:34] <jepler> the board I'm thinking of is the mesa 7i32
[20:56:45] <jepler> maybe it is closed-loop current control inside the 7i32, I'm not sure
[20:57:07] <issy> what speed are you targeting
[20:57:38] <jepler> "the 7i32 sets the stepper motor phase currents based on the PWM inputs. These inputs are filtered on the 7i32 card to provide a reference voltage for setting the current." earlier, the manual talks about working with softdmc.
[20:58:15] <jepler> issy: well, this isn't a product I need (my machine has tiny 2A bipolar motors which even the simplest boards can drive)
[20:58:32] <mr_boo> hi
[20:58:34] <pcw> The 7I32 is closed loop but fairly wimpy...
[20:58:44] <mr_boo> i've got a question about the so called 'feedrate'
[20:59:08] <issy> you can use simple allegro chips , they are 3 A ,single chip drivers , accepts steps and dir
[20:59:08] <mr_boo> is that distance units per seconds?
[20:59:18] <cradek> F word in gcode is units/minute
[20:59:35] <mr_boo> thanks
[21:00:00] <pcw> We tried the allegro Step&dir chips -- no good!
[21:00:02] <alex_joni> hi pcw
[21:00:17] <mr_boo> i'm using allegro chips atm
[21:00:22] <mr_boo> A3977
[21:00:24] <pcw> Hi All
[21:00:34] <cradek> hi
[21:00:48] <issy> yes right A3977 , for 2A they work fine
[21:00:55] <issy> at 30V
[21:00:58] <alex_joni> mr_boo: units / second
[21:01:07] <alex_joni> in the INI I presume you are asking..
[21:01:10] <issy> and you can switch the step
[21:01:20] <mr_boo> ok
[21:01:20] <pcw> The problm we had was with the new 80V chip...
[21:01:37] <pcw> (sorry 50V)
[21:01:43] <mr_boo> i'm using two motors, one of them is a 90 ohm/phase and the other 4.6 ohm/phase
[21:01:51] <alex_joni> pcw: heh, wishfull thinking?
[21:01:52] <mr_boo> poor combination, yes i know
[21:02:00] <issy> not god.
[21:02:17] <issy> for them , steppers from www.motionking.com
[21:02:26] <issy> works well
[21:02:30] <issy> 80 uds/pc
[21:02:42] <issy> up to 70V
[21:04:37] <pcw> <alex> I mixed it up with a step controller we are working on (which is 80V or >)
[21:04:54] <alex_joni> ooh.. sounds interesting enough :D
[21:04:59] <stuste1> issy: how is the gui progressing?
[21:05:38] <alex_joni> stuste1: there's a binary you can try out.. but no source yet to be inspected
[21:05:47] <pcw> only if we can get the price low enough (uses $2.00 DSP)
[21:05:57] <alex_joni> pcw: I sent you a private msg
[21:06:07] <issy> finish the cycle time , fiew bugs in the coordinate system. now Iworking on the hal visualaizer
[21:06:07] <stuste1> my inspection of the source is suspect anyway :)
[21:06:40] <alex_joni> stuste1: http://www.linuxcnc.org/dropbox/ISSYGUI.zip
[21:06:54] <alex_joni> no licence statement on it .. so it might eat your computer
[21:07:01] <issy> in the ini file can be set which hal component where and under what name to be visualized
[21:08:06] <stuste1> alex_joni: thanks - as this is a zip file is this for windows only?
[21:08:14] <alex_joni> I think both
[21:08:24] <issy> both.
[21:08:26] <alex_joni> I ran the windows executable, but saw an ELF in there too
[21:08:38] <stuste1> I have it. I will look and see what I can do with it. Thanks
[21:09:43] <issy> ust one advice.
[21:09:53] <issy> reed the ini file carefuly
[21:09:53] <stuste1> shoot
[21:09:59] <stuste1> will do
[21:10:37] <mr_boo> blah, "linear move would exceed limits on line 2"
[21:10:54] <alex_joni> mr_boo: need to adjust your travel
[21:10:57] <mr_boo> how do i bypass all that stuff
[21:11:06] <mr_boo> i've got a wire winder
[21:11:19] <mr_boo> aint got any travel limits in that sense
[21:11:52] <mr_boo> does that have anything to do with the stepper setup?
[21:12:10] <alex_joni> you can put in some really long limits
[21:12:23] <alex_joni> you probably want a couple thousand rotations, not more.. right?
[21:12:38] <archivist_ub> and the rest
[21:12:40] <alex_joni> G0 X0 Y0 will probably take a while though :D
[21:13:01] <mr_boo> uhm, where do i adjust limits?
[21:13:26] <archivist_ub> did you use stepconf
[21:13:32] <stuste1> the .ini file is almost as simple as the normal file - wow :)
[21:14:19] <mr_boo> so it does indeed have to do with stepconf
[21:14:33] <archivist_ub> it sets a default
[21:15:59] <stuste1> I believe this is the first time I have seen a copyright on a gcode file
[21:16:26] <issy> ???
[21:17:36] <stuste1> the file '3D_Chips.nc' in the library has a copyright notice - no problem - just different
[21:17:52] <alex_joni> stuste1: it's been in the file for a long time
[21:18:05] <mr_boo> is there another way to reset the program other than "home axis" on all of them?
[21:18:06] <alex_joni> every emc had that bundled in the last couple of years I think
[21:18:47] <issy> it was taken from the emc sources , no changes made by me
[21:20:32] <stuste1> not a problem at all - just hadn't realized there would be a need to copyright a gcode file - I have created thousands of gcode files and never dreamed to copyright them
[21:21:03] <issy> ask the owner :)
[21:21:23] <stuste1> duh - thanks - I probably won't
[21:21:29] <stuste1> :)
[21:21:30] <alex_joni> heh
[21:21:44] <issy> any sugestion or questions on the gui are wellcome
[21:21:52] <issy> naw is the time
[21:22:45] <stuste1> very good
[21:23:08] <issy> thanks
[21:26:12] <mr_boo> tried to wind my first coil
[21:26:24] <mr_boo> the guide did not catch up thats for sure
[21:26:38] <mr_boo> gotta check my calculations
[21:26:54] <rayh> It's a start
[21:27:47] <mr_boo> how do i outcommend g code statements?
[21:28:08] <alex_joni> put () around them
[21:28:14] <mr_boo> ah, thanks
[21:30:01] <mr_boo> could be that the guide moved in the wrong direction?
[21:30:27] <mr_boo> well, lets mount thread at other end
[21:30:31] <rayh> That would do it.
[21:32:16] <mr_boo> how do i reset the program so it starts from scratch?
[21:32:28] <mr_boo> just reload it with ctrl+r?
[21:32:42] <alex_joni> yup
[21:36:38] <mr_boo> i must've done a poor job in setup, when i instruct it to move 40 it moves 35 on guide axis
[21:37:35] <alex_joni> the easiest to check is instruct it to move one motor rotation
[21:38:19] <jepler> dangit, I missed pcw
[22:07:05] <mr_boo> anyway, thanks for all help, gotta go