#emc | Logs for 2008-07-08

[00:00:07] <toastydeath> it's a battle between manufacturing and engineering, and nobody wins
[00:00:22] <anonimasu> manufacturing always wins
[00:00:34] <anonimasu> in the end if they cant make the parts the machines wont work
[00:00:37] <toastydeath> they'll call out something ridiculous, the machinists ignore it because everyone knows it doesn't need to be that tight
[00:00:49] <anonimasu> thoose kind of things cost $$$
[00:01:01] <toastydeath> and it's not even partially justified
[00:01:04] <anonimasu> yep
[00:01:11] <ds2> that is until they test the ISO9000 thing by firing all the good machinist and bringing in your favorite foreign labor source
[00:01:24] <dmess> we GET it up the ass most of the time... im fed up with having to blow square bubbles out my ass for engineering..
[00:01:25] <toastydeath> recently we had a part come through with a cosmetic feature called out to +/-.0015
[00:01:35] <toastydeath> in four different places
[00:01:42] <anonimasu> LOL
[00:01:50] <toastydeath> when asked why, the response was "because it was easier to call out that way"
[00:02:12] <ds2> depending on where it is, the eye might be able to discern that
[00:02:20] <toastydeath> it's a wall thickness.
[00:02:25] <dmess> was it correctly GD&T'd
[00:02:32] <toastydeath> it was correctly gd&t'd
[00:02:37] <anonimasu> gd&t?
[00:02:48] <ds2> Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing
[00:02:53] <toastydeath> geometric dimensioning and tolerancing
[00:02:53] <anonimasu> ah
[00:02:58] <anonimasu> there's no reason to doubt that then
[00:03:03] <toastydeath> allows you to call out really specific things
[00:03:10] <toastydeath> while leaving other stuff open
[00:03:22] <toastydeath> except somehow our boys manage to flip it the other way around
[00:03:27] <anonimasu> :)
[00:03:31] <dmess> bcz we get impossoble callouts on ours ALL the time... stuff thats been flying for 30 yrs
[00:03:34] <ds2> got to save more money by calling out specific properties instead of giving a blanket tolerance... also got to let the non english speakers make the parts so we got to use those cryptic symbols
[00:03:51] <anonimasu> heh
[00:03:57] <anonimasu> well, usually that's the way it's done
[00:03:59] <dmess> you
[00:04:18] <ds2> no more C'sinks and C'bores, got to have upside down arrows and square U's
[00:04:31] <anonimasu> All dimensions are subject to +/- 0.05 unless otherwise specified.
[00:04:33] <dmess> you
[00:05:22] <toastydeath> sigh.
[00:05:26] <toastydeath> so depressing.
[00:06:07] <ds2> what does that really mean if there is that +/- 0.05 in the notes but there are dimensions like 0.200...does it mean 0.254 and 0.146 are really the acceptable dimensions per sig digits?
[00:06:08] <toastydeath> and it's not all the engineers, either
[00:06:47] <rayh> yo john_f you made it home from fest.
[00:06:48] <toastydeath> ds2: it means both those dims are out
[00:07:03] <toastydeath> nothing over .250, and nothing under .150
[00:07:08] <ds2> toastydeath: then shouldn't the notes call out +/- 0.050?
[00:07:13] <toastydeath> no
[00:07:24] <toastydeath> tolerances without trailing zeroes are absolute values, with no precision
[00:07:30] <ds2> Hmmm so scientists use the sig figures differently then
[00:07:34] <ds2> ah
[00:07:43] <anonimasu> if there's a feature that needs less clearence it says (+/- 0.001)
[00:07:43] <toastydeath> the dimension itself is sig-figure sensitive.
[00:07:46] <toastydeath> but not tolerances.
[00:08:00] <toastydeath> UNLESS there's a modifier on the dimension, like basic, min, or max.
[00:08:06] <ds2> then what is the correct tool to inspect such a part then?
[00:08:16] <anonimasu> cmm..
[00:08:27] <ds2> 0.050 could be a metal scale
[00:08:28] <anonimasu> usually there are inspection dimensions too..
[00:08:29] <toastydeath> to inspect a .200 +/- .050?
[00:08:33] <toastydeath> i'd use a scale, yeah
[00:08:36] <toastydeath> or some calipers
[00:08:44] <toastydeath> maybe just eyeball it and call it good
[00:08:47] <ds2> ah okay
[00:08:48] <anonimasu> yeah..
[00:08:57] <ds2> the 0.200 would suggest a mic or a caliper
[00:08:58] <toastydeath> but if there's a question, you go to the next higher accuracy machine
[00:09:09] <toastydeath> and next highest if that's indeterminate
[00:09:23] <ds2> fun with measurements
[00:09:28] <toastydeath> or you go to the guy in charge of part holds
[00:09:33] <toastydeath> and ask him, hey, is this part good?
[00:09:49] <ds2> heh
[00:09:51] <toastydeath> and if it's just a little out, or might be a little out and no one cares, they'll write the paperwork up and you keep running.
[00:10:12] <toastydeath> and that part gets noted as such and such dim is out, but the error has no engineering consequence
[00:10:41] <toastydeath> as an incompetent whippersnapper, i am very familiar with this process
[00:10:42] <ds2> so he is really the go-no go gage then ;)
[00:10:43] <toastydeath> =)
[00:10:47] <toastydeath> ahaha, yeah
[00:11:56] <toastydeath> also i am one of three people in the shop who can read gd&t
[00:12:05] <toastydeath> yet they insist on using it?
[00:12:09] <toastydeath> yet train no one?
[00:12:40] <toastydeath> my name is ozymandias, king of kings, look upon my work ye mighty, and despair!
[00:13:07] <toastydeath> i probably shouldn't be talking though, i can barely make a rectangle on a mill
[00:13:14] <toastydeath> in tolerance, anyway
[00:13:28] <anonimasu> lol
[00:13:29] <anonimasu> :)
[00:14:59] <anonimasu> toastydeath: http://www.newwayairbearings.com/adx/aspx/adxGetMedia.aspx?DocID=478,458,30,6,1,Documents&MediaID=1111&Filename=new_way_white_papers_history_of_air_bearings_image_03_px499x270_en.jpg
[00:15:13] <K`zan_emc> I'm not at all sure this thing shouldn't just go in the dumpster, sigh...
[00:15:43] <K`zan_emc> Frustration factor reached, bbl.
[00:15:44] <anonimasu> K`zan: dont give up
[00:15:51] <toastydeath> anonimasu: see the second one in from the left, anonimasu
[00:15:54] <toastydeath> make that kind
[00:16:29] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[00:16:35] <anonimasu> I thought so from the other papers
[00:16:37] <toastydeath> iirc that hs the best performance
[00:17:58] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[00:18:20] <anonimasu> westwind tri lobed aerodynamic bearings ?
[00:18:58] <toastydeath> hurr?
[00:19:09] <toastydeath> left handed purple monkey dimple wrench?
[00:19:12] <anonimasu> http://www.fuelcellmarkets.com/content/images/articles/AirBearingTechnologybriefv2.pdf
[00:19:21] <anonimasu> fancy stuff
[00:20:14] <toastydeath> cool man
[00:20:57] <anonimasu> now thoose are hard to make :)
[00:22:03] <toastydeath> hahah.
[00:27:49] <anonimasu> well, I guess there's no other way to see if this works then to test it
[00:27:51] <anonimasu> :)
[00:28:17] <toastydeath> :D
[00:29:32] <anonimasu> if only I could find a better orfice drawing of a round bearing, but I guess im not searching hard enough :)
[00:32:53] <toastydeath> ?
[00:32:59] <toastydeath> what do you mean
[00:33:12] <anonimasu> Like the hydrostatic bearings I've seen they ahve -/ tracks
[00:33:38] <toastydeath> hydrostatic bearings are waaaay different in design
[00:33:43] <toastydeath> waaaaay different
[00:34:16] <toastydeath> oriface spindles are just a lining that's been drilled a whole bunch
[00:34:24] <toastydeath> with a lapped out bore
[00:34:34] <toastydeath> hydrostatic spindles are ridiculously complicated
[00:34:40] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[00:35:47] <anonimasu> well, better try then theorize.
[00:35:56] <anonimasu> ^_^
[00:36:11] <anonimasu> if it works it works.. if it dosent I'll have $1 of scrap.
[00:36:19] <toastydeath> lol
[00:41:37] <fenn> so, if one were making a linear way out of air bearings, you'd need (at least?) five of those pads?
[00:42:28] <toastydeath> depending on what you wanted, yeah
[00:42:56] <toastydeath> we make a carriage that's really popular for diamond turning lathes, it uses 12 pads
[00:42:57] <fenn> you preload two pads against each other right?
[00:43:10] <toastydeath> you can
[00:43:14] <toastydeath> there's also vacuum preload
[00:43:29] <toastydeath> and some folks buy the bearings themselves and use magnetic preload from linear drivers
[00:43:41] <fenn> hmm what does that look like as far as groove shape?
[00:43:51] <toastydeath> ours don't have grooves?
[00:43:51] <fenn> vacuum preload
[00:44:03] <toastydeath> the porous media is a ring on the outside
[00:44:08] <toastydeath> and on the inside is just a blank cavity
[00:44:09] <anonimasu> they have porous media
[00:44:11] <toastydeath> that we pull vacuum on
[00:44:42] <toastydeath> we've made all kinds of crazy vacuum configurations
[00:44:46] <toastydeath> stuff that looks like windowpanes
[00:45:02] <toastydeath> stuff that looks like an oriface bearing, except the orifaces are for vacuum
[00:45:12] <fenn> seems like exposed magnetics would get swarf trapped in it somehow
[00:45:12] <toastydeath> the vacuum stuff is reallll stable
[00:45:34] <anonimasu> fenn: you have positive air pressure all around them
[00:45:38] <anonimasu> I think
[00:45:41] <toastydeath> most diamond turning lathes have way covers.
[00:45:51] <toastydeath> the bearings themselves don't care about dirt, because of what anonimasu said
[00:45:55] <dmess> all
[00:45:56] <toastydeath> but if you're using linear motors, then yes
[00:46:15] <toastydeath> note that's porous media bearings, those are dirt-insensitive
[00:46:30] <toastydeath> oriface/slot bearings ARE sensitive
[00:46:42] <toastydeath> you can crash a porous bearing pretty bad and it'l still come back
[00:46:45] <toastydeath> *it'll
[00:46:52] <anonimasu> any particle bigger then the gap.. and you are done for right
[00:46:57] <anonimasu> seize.
[00:46:59] <fenn> if it's dragging a chunk of hardened steel across the ways over and over, how is that dirt-insensitive?
[00:47:03] <toastydeath> not REALLY, but it damages the bearing
[00:47:17] <toastydeath> the bad crashes are the friciton weld ones
[00:47:22] <toastydeath> on high speed spindles
[00:47:28] <toastydeath> 120k rpm to nothing in very fast
[00:47:32] <anonimasu> :)
[00:47:37] <anonimasu> loss of air pressure?
[00:47:39] <toastydeath> yep
[00:47:42] <toastydeath> fenn: what do you mean?
[00:48:01] <fenn> i'm picturing a steel sliver with the pointy end going into the air gap
[00:48:13] <toastydeath> oh, the air gap is like, .0002"
[00:48:19] <toastydeath> there's no way for chips to get under there
[00:48:27] <fenn> what about grinding dust?
[00:48:32] <toastydeath> the force of the air coming out pretty much blows everything out
[00:48:35] <anonimasu> nope
[00:48:42] <toastydeath> i know some of our customers use the bearings in abrasive environments
[00:48:46] <anonimasu> as you run them dry.. with just air beneath the bearings
[00:48:54] <toastydeath> there's no contact.
[00:48:57] <anonimasu> ther's a mit paper on a grinder using air bearings
[00:49:05] <anonimasu> no way protection
[00:49:10] <fenn> i mean magnetic dust left over from the grinding process, getting stuck to the linear motors
[00:49:20] <fenn> eh i guess the motor isn't the way surface so it doesnt matter
[00:49:21] <toastydeath> linear motors are a whole different thing, and yes you are correct
[00:49:47] <toastydeath> there's a big push now for "sealed" linear motors because they've got a bad rap for failing due to dirt
[00:50:01] <toastydeath> in medium precision applications, anyway
[00:50:10] <fenn> how can they fail due to dirt? there's no sliding contact
[00:50:11] <toastydeath> high precision is obviously pretty much spotless
[00:50:16] <toastydeath> shorting, abrasion
[00:50:31] <anonimasu> hmm
[00:50:33] <toastydeath> coolant tends to dry with tramp oil
[00:50:40] <toastydeath> and the tramp oil loves to make a realy neat lapping compound
[00:50:48] <toastydeath> and it builds up pretty thick
[00:50:48] <anonimasu> toastydeath: capistan drives in ultra precision :p
[00:50:58] <toastydeath> hhaha =)
[00:51:12] <toastydeath> you only see those in like, the absolute limit of accuracy anymore
[00:51:54] <anonimasu> there isnt a picture of that arrangement on google -_-
[00:51:59] <toastydeath> iirc there was a discussion about retrofitting the lodtm interferometers and capstans with scales and linear motors
[00:52:13] <anonimasu> hehe
[00:52:16] <anonimasu> damn
[00:52:25] <toastydeath> you mean a what a capstan looks like?
[00:52:27] <anonimasu> yeah
[00:52:35] <anonimasu> isnt it just a wheel and a steel bar
[00:52:41] <toastydeath> it's a flat lapped bar, against a lapped wheel
[00:52:42] <toastydeath> yeah
[00:52:53] <toastydeath> except every bearing point is usually on air
[00:52:59] <toastydeath> the gearing is all friction
[00:53:06] <anonimasu> wont that slip?
[00:53:06] <anonimasu> ah
[00:53:13] <anonimasu> then I see
[00:53:18] <toastydeath> you may be more successful looking for "friction drive"
[00:53:33] <toastydeath> i think people like calling it "capstan drive" because it has some connotation of precision
[00:54:46] <anonimasu> :)
[00:54:50] <anonimasu> I have no idea what capstan is.
[00:55:07] <anonimasu> like the word :)
[00:55:10] <toastydeath> hahahah
[00:55:12] <toastydeath> a+
[00:55:28] <anonimasu> the drive I've seen just not very much of..
[00:55:58] <toastydeath> it refers to casette tapes
[00:56:09] <anonimasu> yep
[00:56:21] <anonimasu> (I've seen what it is in that mechanism..
[00:56:25] <anonimasu> like drive roller or something
[00:56:37] <toastydeath> someone was just drunk at one of the national labs and decided to call what crackpot idea they came up with a "capstan drive"
[00:56:40] <toastydeath> that's my theory
[00:57:07] <anonimasu> I dont get how they can be ultra precise..
[00:57:18] <toastydeath> well consider what's there to be inaccurate?
[00:57:28] <anonimasu> motor and encoder
[00:57:28] <toastydeath> there's no leadscrew pitch error
[00:57:36] <toastydeath> there's no gear error
[00:57:46] <anonimasu> only interferometer feedback and motor :P
[00:58:04] <anonimasu> dont you use pid to position it or something?
[00:58:07] <toastydeath> ?
[00:58:41] <anonimasu> like position control (servos bounce between encoder counts)
[00:58:49] <toastydeath> no
[00:59:04] <toastydeath> it doesn't bounce
[00:59:12] <toastydeath> it's suprisingly the "rough" positioning
[00:59:24] <anonimasu> ok?
[00:59:26] <toastydeath> there's usually piezoactuators on the tool top
[00:59:27] <toastydeath> *tip
[00:59:31] <toastydeath> that provide the final positioning
[00:59:34] <anonimasu> heh
[00:59:46] <toastydeath> i mean it gets you to .000001"
[01:00:00] <toastydeath> but it's not exactly the same kind of control that other cnc machines use
[01:00:07] <anonimasu> yep
[01:00:12] <chr0n1c> i draw the line at .0005
[01:00:14] <anonimasu> it's not like anything anyone else uses
[01:00:21] <toastydeath> there's no reason you couldn't use a capstan in EMC though
[01:00:33] <toastydeath> it's not like it wouldn't work, it's just not done in practice
[01:00:54] <toastydeath> in practice it says "a mil or two is close, that's inside the fast tool servo range"
[01:01:00] <toastydeath> and then the fast tool system takes over
[01:01:36] <anonimasu> hehe
[01:01:50] <anonimasu> insanity
[01:01:57] <toastydeath> the capstan drive is built for smoothness
[01:02:08] <toastydeath> everything must be smooth and constant, even if it's a little wrong
[01:02:25] <toastydeath> so if it's going to error, it's not a sudden error, the control sees it coming
[01:03:14] <anonimasu> it's like whoops 0.000001 deviation slow down..
[01:03:15] <anonimasu> :p
[01:03:22] <toastydeath> it uses that second axis system to correct
[01:03:27] <toastydeath> rather than the primary axis
[01:03:47] <toastydeath> really strange way of operating but it works very well
[01:07:32] <anonimasu> night
[01:07:53] <toastydeath> nighty sir
[01:31:16] <dmess> ive run stuff to .ooo1 or better in cimaton and got good code.... but takes 2 days... and dont disturb the box
[01:32:54] <dmess> so how big a stepper for a .5 HP lathe??
[01:34:21] <dmess> 4" x 6 inch envelope is pushin' it 2" x 4" i more realitic
[01:35:01] <dmess> and the 4 is questionable even by ME
[01:36:28] <dmess> it IS a SUPER PRECISION HEADSTOCK
[01:37:08] <dmess> from the factory had 25 millionths tir
[01:45:46] <fenn> dmess nema34 is about right, newer square steppers of course
[01:46:12] <fenn> but really you should calculate it with real numbers
[01:46:30] <fenn> expected cutting force, desired acceleration and inertias
[01:47:08] <fenn> also steppers have a top speed of about 1000rpm so that complicates it somewhat
[01:47:24] <fenn> * fenn hates stepper motors
[02:13:09] <K`zan_emc> Well, sigh, I sure made it worse. Now off by 0.026 over 3.3"
[02:13:45] <K`zan_emc> So many problem with that tailstock I don't know where to start or even if it is worth the effort, assuming I can fix it.
[02:13:48] <cradek> you have a dial test indicator that you can mount on the tool post?
[02:13:56] <K`zan_emc> Perhaps just order another one from Grizzly...
[02:14:03] <K`zan_emc> Yep, several.
[02:14:39] <cradek> so you know the error now. mount your tapered bar, put the indicator against the tailstock end, adjust until it's .013 closer/farther
[02:15:58] <cradek> then take another cut at both ends at the same setting and measure with calipers
[02:16:09] <K`zan_emc> It looks like two problems - adjustment requres opening up the hole that the clamp goes through and that cam lock seems to pull it toward the back since the clamping surface is sloped (and the cam lock doesn't line up with the flat space on the back (tilts to compensate for the clamp attempting to flatten to the slope.
[02:16:50] <K`zan_emc> )
[02:16:55] <K`zan_emc> Dunno
[02:17:10] <cradek> oh I figured it had a setscrew front and back
[02:17:14] <K`zan_emc> Hammering on it with the dead blow just did not seem to move it far enough
[02:17:26] <cradek> I bet it was satisfying though
[02:17:42] <K`zan_emc> one underneath, it is all free floating.
[02:18:06] <K`zan_emc> Not until I get out the sledge :), THEN it will be rewarding, briefly :-) :-).
[02:18:50] <K`zan_emc> There is also one on the end but it flops from side to side trying to get it off the ways so you can turn it over and tighten the other screw.
[02:19:03] <K`zan_emc> Sigh, dunno
[02:19:27] <K`zan_emc> I am starting to think I was really lucky to get that taper down to 0.01/3.5"
[02:19:44] <K`zan_emc> Took me three days and god knows how many attempts to get that.
[02:20:12] <K`zan_emc> Dunno, just dunno.
[02:21:02] <K`zan_emc> fenn: No plate glass, but I could probably roll it on the sliding glass door....
[02:21:47] <jmkasunich> K`zan_emc: can you describe the construction of the tailstock?
[02:21:55] <jmkasunich> most consist of two parts, base and upper section
[02:22:17] <jmkasunich> screws or something hold them together, a groove or similar guides front/back movement of the top on the base
[02:22:42] <jmkasunich> and usually there are two setscrews, one in front and one in back, that can be used to push the top one way or the other
[02:23:39] <fenn> would certainly be easier with adjustment screws than without
[02:23:44] <K`zan_emc> jmkasunich: Pix would be easier, lemme see if I have any from the last time.
[02:24:04] <K`zan_emc> fenn: Rod seems to be in full contact with the glass...
[02:24:38] <fenn> then the wobble is just runout
[02:26:15] <K`zan_emc> jmkasunich: http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/MyMachineShop/projects/TailStockCamLockKit/index.html
[02:26:33] <K`zan_emc> Got more, going to have to go to other room since NFS is flakey in here.
[02:27:50] <jmkasunich> what holds the base to the main part of the tailstock?
[02:28:56] <jmkasunich> (can't be the cam-lock, or it will shift every time you move the tailstock along the bed)
[02:29:33] <K`zan> It is one screw on the bottom and a setscrew on the end. More pix:
[02:29:37] <K`zan> http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/tmp/TailstockCentering-1/
[02:30:28] <jmkasunich> heh, cat
[02:30:49] <chr0n1c> http://imagebin.org/22111 <- updated pickit2 to 40 pin pic18f452 adapter
[02:31:08] <chr0n1c> i may beed to add a lvp line in the future...
[02:31:14] <chr0n1c> to pin 38
[02:31:35] <jmkasunich> K`zan_emc: one comment about pic #0004: you should run with the smallest possible "stickout" of the tailstock barrel
[02:31:36] <chr0n1c> or hvp... the datasheet has me lost :D
[02:32:27] <K`zan> http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/MyMachineShop/tmp/vtaper1.jpg <-- That is what got me going in the first place - from the factory IIRC.
[02:33:00] <jmkasunich> ok, lets take this step by step
[02:33:02] <cradek> since the barrel probably doesn't move in line with the spindle, be sure you have it all the way in when you are doing the centering, and also whenever you turn between centers
[02:33:03] <K`zan> jmkasunich: I know, but it depends on getting a cutter in where I need it, had to be longer to get to the end of the rod.
[02:33:27] <jmkasunich> step 1: test for parallelism between barrel and ways
[02:33:44] <jmkasunich> image 0005 shows an indicator mounted on the carriage and pressing against the front of the barrel
[02:34:02] <K`zan> run the barrel into the chuch and loosten the clamp and see if it jumps around ?
[02:34:05] <jmkasunich> with the tailstock locked to the bed and the barrel also locked, run the carriage the full length of the barrel
[02:34:12] <K`zan> s/chuch/chuck/
[02:34:35] <jmkasunich> no - the chuck and the headstock have nothing to do with the tailstock at this point
[02:34:45] <K`zan> Just kidding :).
[02:35:02] <jmkasunich> I can'
[02:35:25] <K`zan> I am pretty sure it is sitting like "/" with the upper part jammed up against the clamp post.
[02:35:28] <jmkasunich> I can't tell if you are getting what I'm talking about
[02:35:45] <jmkasunich> I don't understand that
[02:35:58] <jmkasunich> "upper part" = the main body of the tailstock?
[02:36:11] <K`zan> Think so. crank the clamp down, extend the barrel and run an indicator along it on the carrage.
[02:36:17] <K`zan> Yes, sorry.
[02:37:03] <jmkasunich> the things that can make the indicator reading vary in that test:
[02:37:19] <jmkasunich> 1) barrel bore machined crooked
[02:37:35] <jmkasunich> 2) upper part of body twisted (around vertical axis) compared to lower part
[02:38:01] <jmkasunich> 2a) because the slot in the upper part is a sloppy fit over the rib on the lower part, or
[02:38:14] <jmkasunich> 2b) because the rib isn't perpendicular to the ways
[02:39:17] <K`zan> All possible, I understand - I just may have a pretzel :).
[02:39:22] <K`zan> Some pix that might be better: http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/tmp/TailstockCentering-1/
[02:39:24] <jmkasunich> 2a is by far the most important
[02:39:45] <jmkasunich> those pics are the ones I've been talking about
[02:40:03] <jmkasunich> http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/tmp/TailstockCentering-1/IMG_0005.JPG shows an indicator in exactly the right place for this test
[02:40:17] <jmkasunich> and 0004 shows the long barrell extension
[02:40:31] <jmkasunich> (the 2nd indicator in the background will be in the way)
[02:42:04] <K`zan> Wasn't, that gave me the up/down deviation.
[02:42:32] <jmkasunich> oh, its in the chuck, not on the carriage, right?
[02:42:39] <K`zan> Yes
[02:42:54] <jmkasunich> ok, not in the way (but not usefull at this point)
[02:44:04] <jmkasunich> what worries me most is the fit between slot and rib in this pic: http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/MyMachineShop/projects/TailStockCamLockKit/IMG_0010.JPG
[02:45:51] <jmkasunich> looking at this http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/MyMachineShop/projects/TailStockCamLockKit/IMG_0010.JPG
[02:46:16] <cradek> would be easy to remake that bottom piece and then fix the upper slot to match (if you have a mill)
[02:46:19] <jmkasunich> it looks like when the cam-lock is released, the top of the tailstock can flop around on that groove
[02:49:02] <K`zan_emc> Well, in theory, the screw in the bottom and the setscrew on the end prevent that.
[02:49:20] <jmkasunich> does any pic show the setscrew?
[02:49:21] <K`zan_emc> OK, got the lathe cleaned up and toolpost off.
[02:49:48] <K`zan_emc> Yes one of them IIRC, centered on the end under / infront of the handwheel.
[02:50:01] <jmkasunich> oh, so it presses against the rib?
[02:50:11] <cradek> oh there's a setscrew on the right that goes in that recessed slot and that's what holds the tailstock together?
[02:50:28] <jmkasunich> there is a SHCS on the bottom that is supposed to hold the two pieces together
[02:50:41] <jmkasunich> the setscrew is its vague approximation of a gib
[02:50:55] <jmkasunich> that explains the shallow V in the right side of the rig
[02:50:56] <jmkasunich> rib
[02:51:11] <K`zan_emc> http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/tmp/TailstockCentering-1/IMG_0004.JPG
[02:51:27] <cradek> I see
[02:51:34] <K`zan_emc> very light spot on the left hand side of the top section centered at the bottom.
[02:51:50] <K`zan_emc> Does it matter where the tailstock is?
[02:51:53] <jmkasunich> right, we figured it out ;-)
[02:51:58] <K`zan_emc> :-)
[02:52:03] <jmkasunich> for this test? not really
[02:52:10] <K`zan_emc> Robust and obvious :)
[02:52:13] <cradek> assuming the bed is straight
[02:52:24] <K`zan_emc> Did you say quill all the way in !?!?
[02:52:37] <jmkasunich> for this test?
[02:52:42] <jmkasunich> quill all the way out, and locked
[02:52:45] <K`zan_emc> Seems it should be all the way out?!?
[02:52:57] <K`zan_emc> Ok let me do that.
[02:53:19] <jmkasunich> probably more working room if you put the tailstock near the right end of the bed
[02:53:40] <jmkasunich> lock the tailstock down, make sure the setscrew and the socket head cap screw on the bottom are tight
[02:54:36] <fenn> * fenn covers his eyes!
[02:54:53] <jmkasunich> fenn: why?
[02:54:59] <fenn> looking at that tailstock
[02:55:28] <K`zan_emc> Done, done and done. Zero indicator at front, changes to +0.00225 up against body
[02:55:48] <jmkasunich> 2-1/4 thou, over what distance, about 3" or so?
[02:55:55] <K`zan_emc> BUT, it could well be twisted /tilted side to side
[02:56:12] <K`zan_emc> 2-3/8"
[02:56:27] <jmkasunich> twist and tilt are two different things
[02:56:32] <jmkasunich> so, about 0.001" per inch
[02:56:41] <K`zan_emc> yes
[02:56:48] <jmkasunich> tolerable
[02:57:13] <K`zan_emc> well in this case viewed from the top one end might be to left other to right or vice-versa.
[02:57:35] <jmkasunich> if viewed from the top, left/right doesn't much matter
[02:57:38] <K`zan_emc> Good, something is tolerable :)
[02:57:41] <jmkasunich> what matters is forward/bacl
[02:58:11] <jmkasunich> your measurement says the quill is pointing a little back
[02:58:25] <K`zan_emc> It moves forward and back with no problem. Problem is it moves uup/down and/or right/left (whole tailstock).
[02:58:29] <jmkasunich> instead of parallel to the ways, it is twisted around a vertical axis, clockwise
[02:58:46] <jmkasunich> ok, we're not using the same coordinate system
[02:59:02] <jmkasunich> forward/back = towards/away from the operator
[02:59:09] <K`zan_emc> I'm entusiastic, not necessarily well educated yet :-)/
[02:59:14] <K`zan_emc> OK
[02:59:15] <jmkasunich> left/right = towards/away from the headstock
[02:59:23] <K`zan_emc> OK with you now.
[02:59:34] <jmkasunich> so we were both saying the same thing
[02:59:49] <K`zan_emc> OK.
[03:00:10] <jmkasunich> up/down is less critical, since you cut on the front of the work, not the top or bottom
[03:00:12] <K`zan_emc> So the back comes toward the op.
[03:00:40] <jmkasunich> back = handwheel end?
[03:00:59] <K`zan_emc> camlock lever side.,
[03:01:19] <jmkasunich> ok, then I'm lost again
[03:01:35] <K`zan_emc> right end comes toward op.
[03:01:39] <K`zan_emc> I'll get it :)
[03:01:43] <jmkasunich> we've determined that the quill in-out motion is not quite parallel with the bed
[03:02:20] <K`zan_emc> Yes
[03:02:45] <jmkasunich> but not much
[03:03:10] <jmkasunich> the real issue is that the centerline of the quill is either too far back or too far forward (away from or close to the operator)
[03:03:48] <K`zan_emc> from the looks of it, too far back.
[03:03:59] <jmkasunich> that is supposed to be adjusted by loosening the socket head cap screw (SHCS) on the bottom, loosening the setscrew, tapping it forward or back a bit, then tightening the setscrew, followed by tightening the SHCS
[03:04:16] <jmkasunich> the rib on the base needs to slide in the slot on the main casting
[03:04:32] <K`zan_emc> yes, and every time you do any of that something else moves :-(.
[03:04:34] <jmkasunich> and the paint, etc that is in the way will mess things up
[03:04:55] <K`zan_emc> Wonder if shooting a laser edge finder at it would help?
[03:04:57] <jmkasunich> have you ever completely separated both halves of the tailstock?
[03:05:06] <jmkasunich> no lazers
[03:05:12] <K`zan_emc> Yes, when I last tried this.
[03:05:22] <K`zan_emc> BB in a boxcar for tolerances.
[03:05:26] <jmkasunich> cleaned all paint off the sliding surfaces?
[03:05:32] <K`zan_emc> Probably not.
[03:05:43] <K`zan_emc> Don't remember now...
[03:05:45] <jmkasunich> take a look at http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/MyMachineShop/projects/TailStockCamLockKit/IMG_0010.JPG
[03:06:00] <jmkasunich> three surfaces that matter
[03:06:19] <jmkasunich> the flat horizontal surfaces on both sides of the rib (and mating surfaces on the bottom of the upper part)
[03:06:23] <K`zan_emc> OK, doesn't look that good jnow.
[03:06:25] <jmkasunich> and the left side of the rib
[03:06:39] <jmkasunich> "good"?
[03:07:06] <jmkasunich> paint is not good - should be bare cast iron (at least over whatever range you might slide it) protected with oil
[03:07:15] <K`zan_emc> after that pix it was tapped for days with a nylon hammer and the paint wasn't happy.
[03:07:44] <K`zan_emc> I can pull it apart, NOT a problem at this point to do so and clean it up.
[03:07:51] <K`zan_emc> Absolutely nothing to loose :)
[03:07:54] <jmkasunich> I'd start by taking it apart - completely remove the SHCS from the bottom, unscrew the t-nut, loosen the setscrew
[03:08:00] <jmkasunich> both parts should easily separate
[03:08:06] <K`zan_emc> Oh yes.
[03:08:52] <jmkasunich> set the base on the lathe bed, you should be able to set the top on the base, and then with light pressure pushing the base to the right, it should slide smoothly front-back (toward/away from the operator)
[03:09:17] <jmkasunich> (this is with the setscrew loose, and the SHCS and cam-lock clamp completely out)
[03:09:33] <jmkasunich> if it hangs up on paint ridges or whatever, scrape that crap off
[03:09:50] <K`zan_emc> base slides OK on ways. Got to go figure out where I stored my snap ring pliers to get the cam lock off.
[03:09:58] <jmkasunich> wait
[03:10:05] <jmkasunich> I don't think you need to remove the snap rings
[03:10:26] <jmkasunich> can you just leave the cam part in place, and unscrew the t-bolt part from the bottom?
[03:10:38] <jmkasunich> in this pic: http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/MyMachineShop/projects/TailStockCamLockKit/IMG_0001.JPG
[03:10:50] <K`zan_emc> Maybe, lemme look (/me is proud found the snap ring pliers :)
[03:10:50] <jmkasunich> that plate/spring/stud part should unscrew
[03:12:18] <K`zan_emc> Did, no paint but I think that is what is called a rough casting :-).
[03:12:45] <jmkasunich> the two pieces are separated now?
[03:14:56] <K`zan_emc> Yes, with the spring out of the hole, I get much more than the ~1/16" adjustment range.
[03:15:16] <jmkasunich> confused again
[03:15:25] <jmkasunich> what does the spring have to do with the adjustment range?
[03:15:44] <K`zan_emc> Top moves on the base about 1/16" front to rear.
[03:15:57] <jmkasunich> thats all?
[03:16:31] <jmkasunich> I was expecting a half-inch or more
[03:16:49] <jmkasunich> judging by the length of the SHCS slot in this pic: http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/tmp/TailstockCentering-1/IMG_0001.JPG
[03:17:00] <K`zan_emc> Yep, with the spring out I get lots more. Even with the bolt in there.
[03:17:10] <K`zan_emc> NOWHERE near that.
[03:17:23] <jmkasunich> "the bolt" is that the "t-bolt" that goes into the cam-lock?
[03:17:31] <K`zan_emc> yes
[03:17:53] <jmkasunich> ok, the pics don't show those details - lets see if I understand
[03:18:17] <K`zan_emc> Ruler on the side with everything loose top moves front and rear about 1/16"
[03:18:30] <jmkasunich> the t-bolt goes up thru a very loose hole in the base, and up thru a somewhat less loose hole in the upper part, and then threads into the cam-lock widget, right>?
[03:19:09] <K`zan_emc> Holes are about the same top and bottom, otherwise yes.
[03:19:48] <K`zan_emc> .490 base .523 top
[03:19:50] <jmkasunich> ok (I had it backwards anyway, the top hole should be bigger...)
[03:20:03] <jmkasunich> how big is the bolt?
[03:21:02] <K`zan_emc> Bolk .385, spring .490.
[03:21:28] <K`zan_emc> Bolt
[03:21:36] <jmkasunich> ok, so the spring goes all the way up thru both holes
[03:21:42] <K`zan_emc> Yes
[03:21:50] <jmkasunich> and prevents it from moving very far at all either way
[03:22:00] <K`zan_emc> Yes
[03:22:08] <jmkasunich> take spring, give to cat as toy
[03:23:09] <K`zan_emc> little over 1/16th each way without the spring
[03:23:15] <jmkasunich> now, we have a 0.385 bolt in a 0.523 hole, so there should be about 0.069 clearance on each side
[03:23:23] <jmkasunich> which is damn close to 1/16" ;-)
[03:23:27] <K`zan_emc> Yes
[03:23:56] <jmkasunich> if the t-bolt is completely removed, then you can slide it lots, right?
[03:24:07] <K`zan_emc> yes off either way :)
[03:24:13] <jmkasunich> ok
[03:24:30] <jmkasunich> with the top off, what does the upper part of the base look like?
[03:24:41] <jmkasunich> in the pic, there is paint right up to the seam between top and base
[03:24:52] <jmkasunich> (they probably painted it after it was assembles - heathens)
[03:25:03] <K`zan_emc> Rough, rough...
[03:25:17] <K`zan_emc> LOL, but it is cheap... :-/.
[03:25:19] <jmkasunich> its not as cast, is it?
[03:25:30] <jmkasunich> I sure hope they machine it (even if sloppy)
[03:26:01] <K`zan_emc> No, it looks like someone hit it with about an 80 grit wheel, maybe less.
[03:26:09] <jmkasunich> oh gawd
[03:26:14] <jmkasunich> do you have a nice big file?
[03:26:23] <jmkasunich> maybe 1" wide and 8-10" long?
[03:26:24] <K`zan_emc> A real bastard...
[03:26:26] <K`zan_emc> :-)
[03:26:47] <jmkasunich> can you file (gently) the flat surfaces?
[03:26:53] <K`zan_emc> Well, HF special 7"
[03:27:14] <jmkasunich> just enough to take off the paint in front and back of the part that was maskeed by the top half of the tailstock
[03:27:32] <jmkasunich> try to keep the file flat, so you don't round off the corners or anything
[03:28:01] <K`zan_emc> No paint under where the top sits...
[03:28:16] <jmkasunich> right, but there is paint in front (and maybe in back)
[03:28:30] <jmkasunich> look here again: http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/MyMachineShop/projects/TailStockCamLockKit/IMG_0010.JPGits
[03:28:37] <jmkasunich> (I wish I could just point....)
[03:29:08] <jmkasunich> there is a horizontal line between base and top - there is paint in front of that line
[03:29:39] <jmkasunich> that is a machined surface under that paint (maybe not well machined, but it is machined)
[03:29:43] <K`zan_emc> OK, but that is sort of lower than the metal part, but not by much.
[03:29:54] <jmkasunich> its all metal
[03:30:55] <jmkasunich> if you were to slide the top half out of the screen (in that pic, after removing the t-bolt and SHCS), wouldn't it be sliding on the paint?
[03:31:12] <K`zan_emc> AH, that is just a low spot in the casting.
[03:31:55] <K`zan_emc> Yes, but it isn't ever going to get that far :-), filing anyway, removing all the paint on that plane.
[03:32:20] <jmkasunich> you want to be able to set the base on the lathe bed, and then set the top on the base, and slide the base front to back without it hitting bumps of paint, casting lumps, etc
[03:33:06] <jmkasunich> one good thing - chinese paint often doesn't stick well, and might flake off
[03:33:16] <K`zan_emc> OK, working..
[03:33:38] <K`zan_emc> Gummy paint, had to use the file card to clear it once already.
[03:35:53] <K`zan_emc> OK there is still paint in the low spots but the bearing surface is reasonalby clear and some of the rough marks are a bit shinier now :).
[03:36:12] <jmkasunich> good
[03:36:32] <jmkasunich> probably want to run the file over the bottom surface of the top part too
[03:36:44] <jmkasunich> it shouldn't be painty, but might be bumpy
[03:36:51] <K`zan_emc> Should probably get the paint off the bearing surfaces on the bottom too
[03:37:57] <K`zan_emc> Crappy, I doubt that 25% of the surface on the flat part on the bottom contacts anything.
[03:38:07] <jmkasunich> well, so it goes
[03:38:43] <jmkasunich> you could make a project out of just this, but as long as there are no major bumps or ridges that make it bounce up and down as you slide it, it will be OK
[03:38:58] <jmkasunich> there are a couple other surfaces to clean up
[03:39:06] <jmkasunich> the top of the rib doesn't matter
[03:39:19] <jmkasunich> nor does the matching surface inside the slot of the top
[03:39:28] <jmkasunich> the left side of the rib does matter
[03:39:57] <K`zan_emc> Facing headstock side?
[03:40:01] <jmkasunich> yes
[03:40:19] <K`zan_emc> I can (and have been) filing my fingernails on that...
[03:40:30] <jmkasunich> heh
[03:40:55] <jmkasunich> again, don't worry about the valleys, just knock off the high spots (paint ridges especially)
[03:41:24] <jmkasunich> also do the mating surface inside the groove
[03:41:31] <jmkasunich> (headstock side only)
[03:41:42] <K`zan_emc> OK, working
[03:46:07] <K`zan_emc> OK, and lightly oiled.
[03:46:15] <jmkasunich> cool
[03:46:20] <jmkasunich> one last thing to check
[03:46:30] <jmkasunich> the rib has a shallow V on the right side
[03:46:39] <jmkasunich> look in there and see if the setscrew has made divots
[03:48:03] <K`zan_emc> Would be hard to tell but none in the one that ridees in the ways only on the back of the base plate and cleaned those up in the process.
[03:48:21] <jmkasunich> lost me again
[03:48:37] <jmkasunich> the surfaces that ride on the ways are on the bottom of the base
[03:48:38] <K`zan_emc> Vway is on the bottom.
[03:48:47] <K`zan_emc> Facing op
[03:48:50] <jmkasunich> we've teen talking about and working on the top of the base
[03:49:08] <jmkasunich> there is a rib that runs front-to-back on the top of the base
[03:49:09] <K`zan_emc> ah
[03:49:14] <jmkasunich> you cleaned up the flat left side of the rib
[03:49:16] <K`zan_emc> yes, that one
[03:49:22] <jmkasunich> the right side of the rib has a shallow V in it
[03:49:37] <jmkasunich> (sideways V, point toward headstock)
[03:49:58] <jmkasunich> the setscrew in the upper half pushes into that V
[03:50:21] <K`zan_emc> Well just above it actually. but close enough.
[03:50:35] <jmkasunich> any divots in the V from the screw?
[03:50:37] <K`zan_emc> Filed off the dents.
[03:50:42] <jmkasunich> good
[03:50:55] <jmkasunich> now a quick kinematics lesson ;-)
[03:51:00] <jmkasunich> set the base on the lathe bed
[03:51:05] <jmkasunich> set the top on the base
[03:51:17] <jmkasunich> no t-bolt, no SHCS, setscrew backed way out
[03:51:49] <K`zan_emc> Done
[03:52:05] <jmkasunich> take your finger and push on the quill, away from the headstock (as if your finger was the workpiece)
[03:52:08] <K`zan_emc> setscrew recessed a tad
[03:52:40] <jmkasunich> the top might slide a tiny bit to the right, until the left side of the slot hits the left side of the rib
[03:52:53] <jmkasunich> then it will tip, left side going up
[03:54:12] <jmkasunich> that should let you visialize the forces that are on the tailstock when you tighten the quill or drill a hole
[03:54:14] <K`zan_emc> err, I need to wright that down. left == toward me?
[03:54:30] <jmkasunich> left = toward the headstock
[03:54:39] <jmkasunich> all my directions are from the operators point of view
[03:54:55] <K`zan_emc> Lemme re-read that again, didn't make sense the first time
[03:55:54] <K`zan_emc> OK, but ti really doesn't do anything except fall off if it comes too much toward me.
[03:56:19] <jmkasunich> which way are you pushing it?
[03:56:29] <jmkasunich> you are sitting in front of the lathe, right?
[03:56:30] <K`zan_emc> Probably moves more toward and away from the rib than it does front to rear.
[03:56:42] <K`zan_emc> Yes, well I have to turn around, but yes
[03:57:27] <jmkasunich> if you push the quill to the right (away from the headstock), first the entire top slides to the right - if the rib wasn't there it would side right off
[03:57:30] <jmkasunich> but the rib is there
[03:57:39] <jmkasunich> so the left side of the slot hits the left side of the rib
[03:57:50] <K`zan_emc> yes
[03:57:59] <jmkasunich> and then if you keep pushing, the top half tilts up and to the right
[03:58:35] <K`zan_emc> about 1/16" slop between both sides of the slot
[03:58:39] <jmkasunich> right
[03:58:54] <K`zan_emc> well the whole thing picks up if you move it too far L/R.
[03:59:11] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:59:18] <K`zan_emc> Tilts in direction of movement,,,
[03:59:22] <jmkasunich> right
[03:59:54] <jmkasunich> anyway, the reason behind that excercise - it is the left side of the rib and slot that keeps the top square
[04:00:09] <jmkasunich> you can probably look thru the right side and see light
[04:00:24] <K`zan_emc> Both if it is centered. Yes
[04:00:36] <jmkasunich> but it won't be centered under load
[04:00:51] <K`zan_emc> setc
[04:01:05] <jmkasunich> setc?
[04:01:06] <K`zan_emc> setscrew will pull R side back against rib.
[04:01:17] <K`zan_emc> err L side
[04:01:24] <jmkasunich> setscrew will push on right side of rib
[04:01:30] <K`zan_emc> Yes
[04:01:42] <jmkasunich> so you will have metal-to-metal contact on the left, and only the setscrew touching on the right
[04:01:51] <K`zan_emc> Yes
[04:02:08] <K`zan_emc> And SHCS on underside
[04:02:16] <jmkasunich> the force from the quill will increase the loading on the left, and do nothing on the right
[04:02:18] <K`zan_emc> Never mind
[04:02:24] <K`zan_emc> Yes
[04:02:29] <jmkasunich> the SHCS will keep the left side from lifting
[04:02:42] <K`zan_emc> Right
[04:02:44] <jmkasunich> the right side doesn't want to lift, so no SHCS is needed there
[04:03:05] <jmkasunich> remenber the 0.001" in 1" "twist" that you measured earlier?
[04:03:15] <K`zan_emc> Wish they had put it in from the top...
[04:03:16] <K`zan_emc> Yes
[04:03:19] <jmkasunich> that is controlled by the mating of the left side of the rib and the slot
[04:03:33] <jmkasunich> and someday you might want to fix it by tweaking the slot (file or mill)
[04:03:40] <jmkasunich> but not now - its not severe at all
[04:03:41] <K`zan_emc> So with some filing I could get that 0/0
[04:03:45] <K`zan_emc> Yes
[04:03:47] <K`zan_emc> Understand
[04:04:07] <jmkasunich> so, back to doing the front-back adjustment (where we started so long ago ;-)
[04:04:19] <jmkasunich> with everything loose, you can slide it front/back
[04:04:30] <K`zan_emc> yes, that too
[04:04:42] <jmkasunich> then you lightly tighten the setscrew - just enough to make sure the left side of the rib and slot are mated
[04:04:48] <jmkasunich> don't want to divot that V
[04:05:02] <K`zan_emc> Now?
[04:05:03] <jmkasunich> then tighten the shcs and the cam-lock, and take a test cut
[04:05:21] <jmkasunich> well, when you are ready to do the tailstock alignment
[04:05:30] <jmkasunich> its midnight here, so I'm gonna call it a night soon
[04:05:54] <K`zan_emc> OK, I can do that, only 2100 here, but it has been a LONG day.
[04:06:20] <K`zan_emc> Much appreciate your patience here.
[04:06:24] <jmkasunich> but do you see what you need to do to adjust? loosen everything, slide, tighten setscrew a bit first (to mate the left edge), then tighten SHCS and cam lock
[04:06:56] <K`zan_emc> No idea where it will be but yes I see what we are doing.
[04:07:09] <jmkasunich> ok
[04:07:17] <jmkasunich> time to walk the dog - goodnight
[04:07:28] <K`zan_emc> Pet the puppy :).
[04:07:41] <K`zan_emc> Shop kitties request petting :).
[04:07:48] <K`zan_emc> Rest well and thanks again!
[04:08:15] <jmkasunich> puppy: http://willepadnos.net/jmkasunich/buddy-leaping-1-1909.jpg
[04:13:02] <K`zan_emc> Cute Collie/???
[04:13:18] <jmkasunich> golden/shepard mix (I think)
[04:13:31] <jmkasunich> shelter mut
[04:13:37] <K`zan_emc> Now for the exciting part of trying to get a hex wrench into the SHCS from underneath.
[04:13:54] <jmkasunich> yeah, that might be "fun"
[04:13:57] <K`zan_emc> Best kind and God bless you, so many are killed, all my kitties are shelter kitties.
[04:14:09] <K`zan_emc> Bitch would be too kind.
[04:14:20] <K`zan_emc> Well, alley cat rescues...
[04:14:36] <K`zan_emc> Got a shop kitty, this all just facinates here no end :).
[04:15:04] <jmkasunich> I have a cat too, but he's too old to be fascinated by shop stuff
[04:15:21] <jmkasunich> 19 years I think
[04:15:40] <jmkasunich> he was 4 when we adopted him
[04:16:30] <K`zan_emc> :-)
[04:16:50] <K`zan_emc> We has 4, one died of cancer of spine / kidney.
[04:16:53] <K`zan_emc> Bummer
[04:17:01] <jmkasunich> yeah
[04:17:10] <jmkasunich> we lost a cat a couple years ago
[04:17:16] <jmkasunich> she was my favorite I think
[04:17:33] <K`zan_emc> Going to see if I can put a brass tube on the SHCS so I can find the damn thing in under 20 minutes.
[04:17:38] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/pics/cat_on_bench.jpg
[04:17:53] <jmkasunich> workbench kitty
[04:18:02] <jmkasunich> rip Roo
[04:18:06] <K`zan_emc> Daint was my fave, she chose me and convered nme from the ultimate cat hater :-). Talented :-)
[04:18:24] <jmkasunich> buds: http://jmkasunich.com/pics/cat_and_dog_on_steps.jpg
[04:18:40] <K`zan_emc> Called her Daint for Dainty Feet since she lived up in the pipes in the basement in our old place.
[04:18:46] <jmkasunich> heh
[04:19:25] <jmkasunich> Roo is because when we brought her home as a kitten, she snuggled up in my ex-wife's sweatshirt hood - like a kangaroo baby in a pouch
[04:19:30] <K`zan_emc> Heh, reading the docs, I understand they read by lying on them :)
[04:19:44] <K`zan_emc> LOL, neat :-)
[04:20:06] <K`zan_emc> Dain't spent her first night perched on top of the bedroom door.
[04:20:56] <K`zan_emc> Delightful little creatures :-).
[04:38:20] <K`zan_emc> Enough for one day, Thanks all & good night.
[06:41:46] <K`zan> join #kubuntu
[08:56:03] <anonimasu_> morning
[09:28:15] <Guest419> hi to all
[09:28:49] <Guest419> is there anyone ?
[09:31:25] <_epineh> hi all
[09:31:57] <Guest419> hi
[12:50:10] <dgar> Greetings -- noticed a problem with joystick on new install of hardy, described here:
[12:50:15] <dgar> http://pastebin.ca/1063404
[12:50:26] <dgar> Any suggestions appreciated
[14:00:34] <cradek> dgar: I see you have done good troubleshooting. I wish I had something to suggest but I don't.
[14:06:03] <skunkworks> logger_emc: bookmark
[14:06:03] <skunkworks> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2008-07-08.txt
[14:06:08] <dgar> I'm wondering if anyone can duplicate the problem
[14:06:36] <cradek> good question. maybe someone with a joystick will show up.
[14:07:18] <skunkworks> heh. hmmm.. I don't think I have one anymore.
[14:07:18] <cradek> in your test when you switched between rtai and non-rtai kernels on hardy, did you leave everything else the same including all the hardware, which port the joystick is plugged into, etc?
[14:08:32] <dgar> yes -- all hardware, bios settings, etc are unchanged when booting hardy-rtai, hardy-generic, dapper-magma
[14:08:52] <cradek> ok, I figured so, but just making sure.
[14:09:38] <dgar> what does the nomenclature "magma" mean -- isn't it rtai also?
[14:10:19] <cradek> the different version branches in rtai are named after volcanoes in some cryptic way. I think the development/trunk is always called magma.
[14:10:35] <dgar> ok -- i get it
[18:10:20] <skunkworks> interesting http://www.emc2.com/
[18:11:04] <archivist> who got dat
[18:11:11] <skunkworks> have not looked.
[18:11:18] <skunkworks> internic would maybe tell
[18:11:35] <awallin> "North Pole of America Inc. "
[18:12:01] <skunkworks> rayh? ;)
[18:12:49] <skunkworks> why would you get emc2 - what happens when emc3 comes out? Or maybe it is just someone wanting e-mc^2
[18:13:13] <skunkworks> *=
[18:13:42] <archivist> * archivist buys emc6 and future proofs himself
[18:14:27] <cradek> Creation date: 10 May 1995 04:00:00
[18:14:35] <skunkworks> heh
[18:19:49] <archivist> shouldnt be any competition if its taken 3 years to write an html test page
[18:21:28] <LawrenceG> 13yrs?
[18:22:23] <archivist> piffle minor maff error
[18:22:52] <archivist> * archivist notes contact addr is in london
[18:23:08] <LawrenceG> slow moving project :}
[18:23:43] <archivist> as slow as some of my projects
[19:30:36] <rayh> Hi skunkworks
[19:36:47] <skunkworks> hi ray.. wondering if you where the 'north pole of america inc.' ;)
[19:37:47] <rayh> Nope. Nice name though.
[19:40:12] <rayh> You'd think that if it were connected to emc squared they would have more than a test page.
[19:45:12] <fenn> there is more, its just busted, see http://www.emc2.com/info/tos.php
[19:46:53] <fenn> er, maybe not
[19:48:45] <fenn> lol, e=mc2 is "a lightly carbonated fruit beverage with ginseng!"
[19:52:28] <alex_joni> there's also http://products.emc2.com/
[19:53:05] <archivist> emc2.co has never had so many hits
[19:54:44] <archivist> hehe d20713192.u186.worldispnetwork.com is my new website according to that page
[21:52:40] <toastydeath> why does skipping class feel so right
[21:57:32] <cradek> same reason taking time off work does, I bet
[21:59:56] <toastydeath> hot
[22:37:20] <dmess> yeah.. but i always pay for it when i get back