#emc | Logs for 2008-05-01

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[01:34:44] <BigJohnT> Houston, we have ignition!
[04:02:18] <K`zan> Progress: http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/MyMachineShop/PipeDreamMill/PDM-Xaxis1/
[04:06:29] <gfixler> Hi all - I thought I would share my latest little machining video, which makes mention of my use of EMC2
[04:06:33] <gfixler> http://youtube.com/watch?v=KI9_q2Y59_I
[04:11:35] <jmkasunich> nice
[04:11:51] <jmkasunich> o-word looping?
[04:11:58] <gfixler> yep
[04:12:00] <jmkasunich> cool
[04:12:16] <jmkasunich> hours?
[04:12:43] <gfixler> it was about 6 days of actual time on the machine, intermittently when I found free time after work
[04:12:48] <jmkasunich> ouch
[04:12:50] <gfixler> I know
[04:12:54] <gfixler> I'm still learning
[04:12:59] <gfixler> getting faster with each little project
[04:13:20] <gfixler> I'm also overly careful, so my loops will run for hours, just to trim something down in size on the lathe
[04:13:26] <gfixler> I'm getting a bit more bold there, too
[04:13:39] <jmkasunich> I've been machining (hobby, not pro) for 10 years, and I still didn't really start to get a feel for what the machine can do until I started doing CNC
[04:13:57] <gfixler> how long without cnc?
[04:14:03] <jmkasunich> 9.5 yrs
[04:14:06] <gfixler> wow
[04:14:14] <gfixler> I definitely wanted the cnc stuff right away
[04:14:19] <jmkasunich> I got the machine running over xmas break
[04:14:20] <gfixler> so I got it with the mill
[04:14:27] <gfixler> steppers, or servos?
[04:14:31] <jmkasunich> steppers
[04:14:35] <gfixler> cool
[04:14:38] <jmkasunich> a shoptask 3-in-1
[04:14:54] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/cgi-bin/blosxom/shoptask
[04:14:57] <gfixler> whoa, they're pretty big, no?
[04:15:15] <jmkasunich> about 600-700 lbs
[04:15:28] <jmkasunich> big compared to sherline, small compared to bridgeport
[04:16:17] <gfixler> wow
[04:16:20] <gfixler> that's aawesome
[04:16:41] <gfixler> it has so much speed and power in the video
[04:16:43] <gfixler> compared to me
[04:16:48] <gfixler> I can lift the sherline with one hand :)
[04:17:05] <jmkasunich> they are handy that way
[04:17:25] <jmkasunich> getting the shoptask in the basement was a project, and getting it out again is something I don't even want to think about
[04:17:32] <gfixler> haha
[04:17:51] <gfixler> they make things for moving very heavy items, like gun safes into, and out of basements
[04:17:52] <jmkasunich> nice oops on the boring head
[04:17:57] <gfixler> yeah :(
[04:17:59] <tomp> very nice demo vid
[04:18:05] <gfixler> then I read how they're supposed to be used, and felt pretty dumb
[04:18:08] <gfixler> thanks
[04:18:18] <jmkasunich> did you make that on a linux box?
[04:18:22] <gfixler> yeah
[04:18:28] <gfixler> Ubuntu 7.10, with Kino
[04:18:35] <tomp> ah, kino
[04:18:50] <jmkasunich> I have to remember that
[04:19:05] <gfixler> it's very non-intuitive, but once you get it, it's very handy
[04:19:10] <gfixler> the help files were a must
[04:19:18] <gfixler> and thankfully, a pretty quick read
[04:19:22] <jmkasunich> the vid you saw is my one and only vid
[04:19:34] <gfixler> I enjoyed it
[04:19:36] <gfixler> just finished
[04:19:56] <gfixler> video editing does rob me of more time to design, and code things for the mill, and lathe, though
[04:20:16] <jmkasunich> nice fit on the part
[04:20:38] <gfixler> yeah, I keep wondering how much of that was luck
[04:20:39] <tomp> did you install just Kino or the whole studio?
[04:20:44] <gfixler> just kino
[04:20:55] <gfixler> I have another machine with Ubuntu Studio on it, though
[04:21:02] <gfixler> but it's mainly for recording work at my piano
[04:21:16] <gfixler> that's a tiny Shuttle KPC
[04:21:24] <gfixler> which I rate an extremely good deal
[04:22:10] <gfixler> there's a Flickr set of the 7 days of work on the mill vacuum stuff
[04:22:12] <gfixler> http://www.flickr.com/photos/garyfixler/collections/72157604713088268/
[04:22:19] <gfixler> actually - a collection of 6 sets
[04:22:30] <gfixler> now that I look at it, it was more like 4 days on the machines
[04:22:43] <jmkasunich> lol - augers
[04:22:50] <gfixler> haha
[04:22:53] <gfixler> another whoops
[04:23:01] <jmkasunich> goin' for the helicopter of death there
[04:23:03] <gfixler> I like to learn how to use machinery by endangering myself :)
[04:24:40] <tomp> did you use Maya in getting the gcode?
[04:25:09] <gfixler> yes, and no
[04:25:25] <gfixler> I took measurements off the maya mockup, but wrote the g-code in a text editor by hand
[04:25:33] <tomp> ah, just for dimensions, cool
[04:26:03] <gfixler> I have used it to generate g-code for me
[04:26:08] <tomp> very nice, very pro ( keep your fingers in your pockets ;)
[04:26:08] <gfixler> with MEL, it's embedded scripting language
[04:26:17] <gfixler> thanks, tomp :)
[04:29:55] <gfixler> jmk: what's the precision on the shoptask?
[04:30:06] <jmkasunich> depends
[04:30:07] <gfixler> resolution, rather
[04:30:26] <jmkasunich> either 20000 or 40000 counts per inch, don't recall at the moment
[04:30:36] <gfixler> !!?
[04:30:40] <jmkasunich> the machine itself can work to 0.001 if you are carefull
[04:30:49] <jmkasunich> 10x microstepping (gecko drives)
[04:30:52] <gfixler> 40k per inch!
[04:30:58] <gfixler> wow
[04:31:13] <jmkasunich> 10 tpi screws, 2:1 timing belts, 200 step/rev motors, 10x microstepping
[04:31:27] <jmkasunich> I'm planning to replace the screws with 5tpi ballscrews
[04:31:28] <gfixler> are the threads precise enough for that, or is it all theoretical?
[04:31:31] <SWPadnos> I've got the same resolution on my Bridgeport
[04:31:36] <gfixler> wow
[04:31:45] <SWPadnos> 1000CPR encoders, 2:1 belt drive, 5TPI
[04:31:48] <gfixler> oh, I see - the machine drops all of that to 1000ths
[04:32:06] <jmkasunich> slop in the ways, screw error, etc, mean you don't get anywhere near that resolution
[04:32:12] <gfixler> yeah
[04:32:32] <jmkasunich> if I'm quite carefull I can turn a press fit, but I can't just write a program and have it come out that good
[04:32:33] <gfixler> I'm not sure what the microstepping of the Sherline driver is
[04:32:41] <gfixler> right
[04:32:44] <jmkasunich> I have to get close, measure, and then make a finish pass or two
[04:32:49] <gfixler> I was fascinated to learn about that
[04:32:57] <gfixler> the fact that a human can achieve better results than a machine
[04:33:11] <gfixler> my whole life I thought machines were perfect, infallible, and amazingly accurate
[04:33:23] <jmkasunich> heh, then you started using a machine tool
[04:33:24] <gfixler> and I wondered why handmade cars were ever considered better :)
[04:33:28] <gfixler> haha, yeah
[04:33:46] <SWPadnos> remember: the first tools were made by hand
[04:33:53] <gfixler> yep, that blows my mind
[04:34:04] <SWPadnos> it takes a brain to improve accuracy. machines can't do it themselves
[04:34:05] <jmkasunich> I wouldn't say a human can achieve better than a machine - a human with a machine can do better than a machine alone
[04:34:06] <gfixler> the only inkling I have of how has been reading up on the three-table method of creating a flat surface
[04:34:06] <tomp> remember hands made the first tools
[04:34:24] <SWPadnos> heh - yeah, that's a cool trick
[04:34:33] <SWPadnos> I wish I knew more of those
[04:34:36] <gfixler> me too
[04:34:53] <jmkasunich> the Moore book on that kind of stuff is fascinating
[04:34:56] <gfixler> I keep wishing some science channel would do a history of accuracy, precision, straightness, flatness, and related things
[04:35:04] <gfixler> I'm going to look that up
[04:35:08] <jmkasunich> I think its called "Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy"
[04:35:13] <gfixler> excellent!
[04:35:23] <jmkasunich> its an expensive book if you can find it - I got it on interlibrary loan
[04:35:23] <gfixler> I've scoured google a bit for such things, finding little bits here and there
[04:35:38] <gfixler> the only mildly related text I have is the mechanical movements book
[04:35:52] <gfixler> http://www.amazon.com/Five-Hundred-Seven-Mechanical-Movements/dp/1879335638
[04:36:01] <gfixler> great for ideas when building machinery, robots, etc
[04:36:10] <jmkasunich> the Moore book is probably from the 60's or so - it partly reads as a boast about how good Moore jig borers are, but its also very interesting
[04:36:19] <gfixler> nice
[04:37:09] <jmkasunich> http://www.mooretool.com/publication.html
[04:37:52] <gfixler> wow, that is pricey
[04:38:04] <gfixler> do you feel reading through it has made you a better machinist in any ways?
[04:38:07] <jmkasunich> thats why I don't own a copy
[04:38:15] <jmkasunich> I dunno
[04:38:23] <jmkasunich> it inspired me to try hand scraping
[04:38:34] <jmkasunich> which in turn taught me that hand scraping is a LOT of work
[04:38:37] <gfixler> haha
[04:38:39] <gfixler> seriously
[04:38:48] <gfixler> nothing has inspired me to actually try that yet
[04:39:15] <jmkasunich> I did some on the Shoptask about a year ago
[04:39:23] <jmkasunich> the ways were tighter at one end than in the middle
[04:39:36] <jmkasunich> I was able to improve it quite a bit, with two days of hard work
[04:39:42] <gfixler> that's good to hear
[04:39:47] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/cgi-bin/blosxom/shoptask/scraping-12-17-06.html
[04:39:56] <gfixler> I have a nice table saw with a miter channel that changes width
[04:40:08] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/cgi-bin/blosxom/shoptask/scraping-12-18-06.html
[04:40:18] <gfixler> which meant I couldn't use a miter bar with precision wheels, because it pinches on one end
[04:40:23] <jmkasunich> hmm - a channel would be tough
[04:40:27] <gfixler> yeah
[04:40:32] <gfixler> I've been imagining a hone stone of some sort
[04:40:37] <gfixler> worked back and forth in the channel
[04:40:37] <jmkasunich> yeah
[04:40:58] <jmkasunich> it really comes down to two steps - measuring the high spots, and removing them
[04:41:03] <gfixler> yeah
[04:41:11] <gfixler> woodpeckers just sent me spam on this thing today: http://www.woodpeck.com/sawgauge.html
[04:41:13] <jmkasunich> you could probably remove them with fine silicon carbide sandpaper
[04:41:14] <gfixler> precision ground pins
[04:41:20] <gfixler> it answers a need I've had for awhile
[04:41:32] <gfixler> I want the inverse
[04:41:37] <gfixler> to measure the actual channel
[04:42:01] <jmkasunich> something similar to that could measure width
[04:42:08] <jmkasunich> straightness is a more difficult challenge
[04:42:28] <gfixler> yeah, and I think straightness is the problem
[04:42:43] <gfixler> I have a feeling the channel is about the same width, but bends off to one side at the back end
[04:42:52] <jmkasunich> what's the closest thing you have to a precision straight edge?
[04:43:13] <jmkasunich> clamp it down, and run the woodpecker in the slot, with the indicator plunger bearing on the straightedge
[04:43:18] <gfixler> coincidentally, woodpecker's straight edge: http://www.woodpeck.com/sse2.html#1109
[04:43:25] <gfixler> that's a good idea
[04:43:31] <gfixler> I did use this to check the straightness
[04:43:38] <gfixler> and was able to lightly rock it on one side, and not on the other
[04:43:46] <jmkasunich> adjust the straightedge till the pecker reads the same at both ends, and the reading in the middle will tell you how curved it is
[04:43:56] <gfixler> good idea
[04:44:01] <gfixler> I'm going to do that
[04:44:36] <gfixler> I could make a small, precision holder for my dial test indicator
[04:44:41] <gfixler> one that runs along the straight edge
[04:44:54] <gfixler> and could then see exactly where, and by how much it's curving
[04:45:02] <jmkasunich> then you could indicate both sides of the slot, one at a time - and get both straightness and width
[04:45:09] <gfixler> yeah
[04:45:16] <gfixler> and then lots of work to straighten it up
[04:45:30] <jmkasunich> depends on how far off it is
[04:45:41] <gfixler> also coincidentally, I just bought some dykem from a small machine shop nearby
[04:45:52] <gfixler> not for a reason - just 'in case'
[04:45:53] <jmkasunich> the evil blue goo
[04:46:04] <gfixler> yeah, I'm afraid to open it around anything I like
[04:46:42] <jmkasunich> just open a fresh roll of paper towels and a bottle of some oil-cutting cleaning fluid first
[04:47:01] <jmkasunich> but keep it away from your woodworking stuff - you sure don't want blue spots on wood
[04:47:26] <gfixler> that'll be tricky
[04:47:31] <gfixler> the entire barn is woodworking stuff
[04:47:43] <gfixler> your surface plate - what material is it?
[04:47:45] <jmkasunich> duh - I thought the "woodpecker" was their name for that saw gage- its the name of the company
[04:47:50] <jmkasunich> granite
[04:47:51] <gfixler> yeah
[04:47:56] <gfixler> does sliding it around damage it?
[04:48:02] <jmkasunich> 12x18, got it surplus for $50
[04:48:05] <gfixler> nice!
[04:48:13] <gfixler> littlemachineshop.com has a sale on a tiny one
[04:48:18] <jmkasunich> not if you slide it on something that is already reasonably flat
[04:48:36] <gfixler> http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2882&category=
[04:48:40] <gfixler> more a stand than a plate
[04:48:48] <gfixler> but pretty cheap at $30
[04:49:00] <jmkasunich> I think enco sells pretty inexpensive surface plages
[04:49:02] <jmkasunich> tes
[04:49:17] <jmkasunich> wow, 12x18 for $25
[04:49:30] <jmkasunich> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INLMK3?PMK0NO=909662
[04:49:43] <gfixler> grade b
[04:49:55] <jmkasunich> I'd have to read up to see what that means
[04:50:05] <gfixler> they don't say which granite
[04:50:09] <gfixler> I believe black granite is the best
[04:50:23] <jmkasunich> the enco ones are black
[04:50:27] <gfixler> hardest - least porous, so it doesn't pull in dirt, which can grind up the surface over time
[04:50:50] <jmkasunich> I think when you are talking $25 plates for home use it doesn't much matter
[04:50:50] <tomp> blacks' most common, i think pink is harder, and more $$
[04:50:58] <gfixler> ah
[04:51:10] <jmkasunich> ah, B is +/- 0.0002
[04:51:20] <gfixler> yeah, I figured - it's in the specs at the link
[04:51:34] <gfixler> that's still 5x tighter than my mill can achieve
[04:51:43] <jmkasunich> of course I had no idea what grade mine is - it's twice as thick as the enco plates, with ledges
[04:52:06] <jmkasunich> I had it reconditioned for I think $75, they said its now +/-0.000050
[04:52:06] <K`zan_emc> Hi folks, installed the latest(?) EMC and it does fine off the ethernet, but I will be using it with a wireless adapter (just arrived today) and apparently there is nothing to do with wireless in this install, should I just start over (nothing much done so far)? TIA
[04:52:17] <K`zan_emc> Impressive :)!
[04:52:27] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[04:52:50] <gfixler> 5 *hundred* thousandths?
[04:53:13] <tomp> 50 millionths
[04:53:29] <gfixler> I think I'd want to build a glass display case for something that accurate
[04:53:33] <jmkasunich> its funny, by pure coincidence it was reconditioned and certified exactly 31 years after the date on the original cert tag
[04:53:41] <gfixler> nice
[04:53:57] <tomp> traceable to NIST, the mother of EMC :)
[04:54:08] <gfixler> I guess 50 millionths is more accurate than 5 hundred thousandths
[04:54:14] <gfixler> because it adds in that extra 0
[04:54:56] <gfixler> K'zan - how is EMC using the ethernet?
[04:55:01] <jmkasunich> I got to watch them do it - it was interesting
[04:55:17] <gfixler> grinding wheels, right?
[04:55:19] <tomp> ? :) i just dont think in hundred thousandths, both are same thing tho
[04:55:29] <jmkasunich> they flipped it upside down on a much larger plate, and slid it back and forth with diamond dust between the plates
[04:55:40] <jmkasunich> slide, turn, slide, turn - by hand
[04:55:44] <gfixler> but you'd have to say 5.0 hundred thousandths to really mean 50 millionths
[04:56:01] <gfixler> to stress that extra digit of precision
[04:56:04] <jmkasunich> then take it off, clean, and check using a very sensitive dial indicator and a precision straightedge
[04:56:37] <gfixler> what makes their original plate so incredibly flat?
[04:56:46] <jmkasunich> just checked the tag - its actually 60 millionths, not 50
[04:56:47] <gfixler> where's the divine mover? :)
[04:57:03] <jmkasunich> I think its partly that three-plates averaging thing
[04:57:04] <gfixler> oh, well that's no good then ;)
[04:57:27] <gfixler> I wonder if there's an XY machine with a precision reader, and grinding tip
[04:57:39] <gfixler> that can run around checking every point, and grinding it down
[04:57:42] <jmkasunich> if you slide one thing on another thing, constantly rotating them so the pattern is nicely random, the two things wind up matching
[04:57:56] <gfixler> right, but you need the third table in there
[04:58:09] <gfixler> or they may perfectly match a spherical shape
[04:58:13] <jmkasunich> right
[04:58:26] <jmkasunich> they generate flats by using three
[04:58:41] <gfixler> I wonder if three run against each other in that way will automagically flatten all 3
[04:58:41] <jmkasunich> although there are techniques to do it with only 2
[04:58:46] <gfixler> so you don't actually need to check anything
[04:58:46] <jmkasunich> yep
[04:58:56] <jmkasunich> 1 on 2, then 2 on 3, then 3 on 1, etc
[04:58:59] <gfixler> right
[04:59:10] <gfixler> that's pretty impressive when I think about it
[04:59:20] <jmkasunich> the moore book goes into that kind of stuff
[04:59:20] <gfixler> using randomness to create very non-random things
[04:59:38] <jmkasunich> moore does it by scraping three cast iron plates to match each other
[05:00:23] <K`zan> I'll just copy my emc directory over to the server and reinstall and see what happens.
[05:01:11] <jmkasunich> I bet the $25 surface plate from Enco needs $40 in shipping
[05:01:16] <gfixler> probably
[05:01:20] <jmkasunich> if not more
[05:01:25] <gfixler> still, I had no idea I could get a surface plate for such a low price
[05:01:31] <gfixler> I've had in my head they were likely hundreds of dollars
[05:01:41] <jmkasunich> ones that aren't made in China are
[05:01:47] <gfixler> ha
[05:01:56] <gfixler> is Enco a kind of Harbor Freight?
[05:02:02] <LawrenceG> just about cheaper than floor tiles!
[05:02:02] <jmkasunich> but a grade B is plenty for home use
[05:02:10] <jmkasunich> yeah, maybe a notch better
[05:02:21] <jmkasunich> they're mostly mail order - I wonder if they have any stores
[05:02:36] <jmkasunich> the cheap surface plates are only really cheap if you can go pick it up yourself
[05:02:56] <ds2> the smaller ones by enco qualify for free shipping
[05:03:02] <gfixler> I've held off on certain bits of precision, because they were either too expensive to consider, or too cheap to believe
[05:03:53] <jmkasunich> get a plate, make a nice cover for it, and it will last you forever
[05:03:53] <gfixler> I probably only need something this big: http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3068&category=1438824943
[05:04:02] <gfixler> I can only make parts 4"x8" on the Sherline
[05:04:05] <gfixler> and that's pushing i
[05:04:06] <gfixler> t
[05:04:09] <tomp> for the sherline mill & lathe , a 6"x6" might be enuf
[05:04:26] <jmkasunich> I took a piece of masonite and put a quarter-round frame on around the bottom edge - it sits on the plate when I'm not using it
[05:04:27] <gfixler> yeah, though I like the 9"x12" to have room for tools
[05:04:37] <gfixler> what are the ledges?
[05:04:58] <jmkasunich> it's 4" thick for most of its length, but for 2" at each end its only 2" thick
[05:05:00] <gfixler> e.g.: http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3092&category=
[05:05:08] <gfixler> ah, so it can be sunk into a table?
[05:05:09] <jmkasunich> so if you wanted to clamp something you could get the clamp underneath
[05:05:13] <gfixler> oh, I see
[05:05:23] <jmkasunich> never used the edges on min
[05:05:24] <jmkasunich> e
[05:05:39] <gfixler> I want to find a few more uses for a surface plate before I invest
[05:05:51] <gfixler> I still don't know how necessary one would be for me
[05:06:09] <jmkasunich> I have no personal experience with Little Machine Shop, but from what I've seen, you can do better at regular industrial suppliers like Enco, MSC, etc
[05:06:26] <gfixler> I'll be sure to check them out, and compare
[05:06:29] <jmkasunich> there are some things that are specific to small machines that only LittleMachineShop will have
[05:06:39] <jmkasunich> but for example a height gage is probably less elsewhere
[05:06:44] <gfixler> good to know
[05:06:59] <gfixler> I also seem to keep coming up with ideas that need precision ground pins
[05:07:05] <gfixler> so I need to source those
[05:07:15] <jmkasunich> dowels - mcmaster car
[05:07:47] <gfixler> wow, half a million products
[05:08:17] <jmkasunich> you name it they got it
[05:08:48] <jmkasunich> I have some 1/4" dowel pins here (1-3/4" long) - they measure 0.2502
[05:09:12] <jmkasunich> +/- 0.0001 which is about as well as I can measure with my best instruments
[05:09:15] <gfixler> I don't know if they're made, but I was wondering about a kit, like a gage block set, of just every measurement
[05:09:20] <gfixler> 0.001, 0.002, etc
[05:09:25] <jmkasunich> for pins?
[05:09:28] <gfixler> yeah
[05:09:29] <jmkasunich> yeah, they are made
[05:09:34] <gfixler> for quickly checking hole sizes
[05:09:38] <gfixler> very precisely
[05:09:52] <gfixler> trying to get an ID with calipers is next to impossible for me
[05:10:01] <jmkasunich> however unlike gage blocks that you can stack, if you need 0 to 1.000" by 0.0001 that is 10000 pins
[05:10:11] <gfixler> haha
[05:10:13] <gfixler> true
[05:10:15] <jmkasunich> (only 36 or so blocks)
[05:10:22] <gfixler> the other thing I wondered about
[05:10:32] <gfixler> some kind of caliper-like thing that would let you widen a pin
[05:10:38] <gfixler> you could measure it with calipers, or a micrometer
[05:10:47] <gfixler> and turn something to widen it to whatever ID you needed
[05:10:48] <jmkasunich> widen a pin?
[05:10:52] <gfixler> yeah
[05:11:05] <jmkasunich> you lost me there
[05:11:07] <tomp> like an adjustable reamer?
[05:11:12] <gfixler> in a sense
[05:11:15] <jmkasunich> that will widen a hole
[05:11:19] <gfixler> more like 4 panels
[05:11:22] <jmkasunich> widening a pin means adding material to it
[05:11:27] <tomp> itself gets wider
[05:11:29] <gfixler> that can widen out from a center
[05:11:34] <tomp> the reamer gets wider
[05:11:45] <gfixler> I don't mean actually widening a pin
[05:11:49] <gfixler> this would be a device
[05:11:54] <gfixler> that could maintain some sense of roundness
[05:11:56] <gfixler> but be widened
[05:12:01] <gfixler> there could be intermittent space around it
[05:12:14] <gfixler> I'm trying to think of an example
[05:12:16] <SWPadnos> like a 3-jaw chuck, but in a reamer configuration
[05:12:20] <gfixler> yeah, I suppose
[05:12:21] <tomp> like a honing tool for a cyclinder bore?
[05:12:31] <jmkasunich> like so: http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=334-1114&PMPXNO=946759
[05:12:33] <gfixler> the idea would be that it would have 3 points of contact
[05:12:52] <jmkasunich> are you talking about just _measuring_ inside a hole?
[05:12:54] <gfixler> ah, does that push the sides outward as you tighten it?
[05:12:56] <jmkasunich> or cutting?
[05:13:00] <gfixler> sorry, measuring
[05:13:10] <gfixler> bore with the lathe, back out, and test its size quickly with pins
[05:13:12] <gfixler> go/no-go
[05:13:13] <SWPadnos> bore gauges
[05:13:22] <gfixler> are those the t-handle deals?
[05:13:31] <jmkasunich> pins if you have a limited range of sizes that you need - else the 10000 pins problem
[05:13:38] <jmkasunich> small hole gages for under 1/2"
[05:13:38] <gfixler> yeah
[05:13:40] <SWPadnos> they expand inside the hole, you lock them in place, then measure with a caliper/micrometer
[05:13:48] <gfixler> yeah, I think I know them
[05:13:49] <jmkasunich> telescoping gages for 1/2" to 6"
[05:13:52] <gfixler> just saw them in a glass case, too
[05:13:56] <jmkasunich> and inside mics for over 6"
[05:14:04] <gfixler> oh, I don't know the small hole gages
[05:14:09] <gfixler> I know the telescoping ones
[05:14:11] <SWPadnos> lots of pins :)
[05:14:17] <gfixler> is that what it is?
[05:14:25] <gfixler> because that was my idea - I just wanted pins of every size :)
[05:14:26] <jmkasunich> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=615-6610&PMPXNO=947860&PARTPG=INLMK3
[05:14:30] <ds2> pins are so much better then a telescoping gage
[05:14:30] <tomp> cheap bore gages contact on 2 points, are a split ball with a screw. put into hole, adjsut screw till it almost binds, withdraw and mike
[05:14:37] <gfixler> yeah, those are the ones I saw recently
[05:14:49] <gfixler> I couldn't imagine using the telescoping gages very easily
[05:14:52] <ds2> an intramike is a reasonable compromise
[05:15:00] <jmkasunich> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=615-6250&PMPXNO=949268&PARTPG=INLMK3
[05:15:10] <jmkasunich> ds2: what is an intramike?
[05:15:15] <tomp> those things!
[05:15:19] <ds2> let me find a pix
[05:15:39] <jmkasunich> gfixler: you are right - telescoping gages are hard to use
[05:15:47] <tomp> oops, those things were small bore gages at ENCO
[05:15:48] <gfixler> I wanted something with 3 points of contact, but with some length to them, so they'd hold the pin vertically in the bore
[05:15:50] <jmkasunich> I do fine with small hole gages, but I suck with telescoping gages
[05:15:54] <gfixler> so you didn't have to worry about if you were in at an angle
[05:15:58] <gfixler> maybe 2 sets of 3 points
[05:15:59] <ds2> hmmm no good pix
[05:16:06] <gfixler> at different depths on the pin
[05:16:14] <gfixler> and you could turn something to push them all out
[05:16:16] <gfixler> in micrometer fashion
[05:16:20] <gfixler> very accurately
[05:16:20] <jmkasunich> the problem with 3 points is that you can only mic it if it has two points directly across from each other
[05:16:21] <ds2> jmkaunich: they are 3 point contact micrometer for measuring the inside diameter
[05:16:24] <gfixler> and then pull out, and measure that
[05:16:32] <gfixler> but 3 points is a pain, because it's hard to caliper
[05:16:35] <ds2> you turn it and it extends the 3 contact points
[05:16:40] <jmkasunich> you are describing bore gages
[05:16:44] <gfixler> unless you do something like the 3-wire method, with tables, or calculations
[05:16:47] <gfixler> (for threads)
[05:16:56] <gfixler> but aren't those 2 points?
[05:16:58] <ds2> intramikes are direct reading :)
[05:16:58] <jmkasunich> the problem with bore gages is again, limited size range, and high price
[05:16:59] <gfixler> on a T handle?
[05:17:06] <jmkasunich> there are two and three point versions
[05:17:10] <gfixler> I see
[05:17:15] <gfixler> 2 seems really difficult to get just right
[05:17:26] <gfixler> if you have the rod at an angle, it's going to give a diagonal reading
[05:17:29] <gfixler> slightly oversized
[05:17:40] <jmkasunich> thats the skill factor
[05:17:44] <gfixler> yeah!
[05:17:47] <jmkasunich> which is why I suck with telescoping gages
[05:17:48] <ds2> no good pix for an intramike
[05:17:48] <gfixler> I don't want skill :)
[05:17:50] <gfixler> I want automation
[05:18:00] <gfixler> 3 would require skill, too, unless you had another 3 higher up
[05:18:06] <ds2> they are nice for boring unlike the @#$@$@$#@$@ telescoping gages
[05:18:06] <gfixler> then they'd hold the whole deal perpendicular
[05:18:20] <jmkasunich> I just got one of these: http://www.emachinetool.com/tooling/temp_top_three.cfm?FamilyID=S305185&Source=PTC
[05:18:42] <gfixler> oh, cool
[05:18:45] <jmkasunich> you still rock it around in the bore to get it perpendicular, but the indicator tells you when you are there
[05:19:04] <gfixler> nice
[05:19:12] <gfixler> do you feel you're really nailing the reading?
[05:19:20] <tomp> look for the low reading?
[05:19:23] <jmkasunich> much better than I did on telescoping gages
[05:19:29] <jmkasunich> tomp: partly
[05:19:31] <gfixler> I can see that
[05:19:43] <jmkasunich> when rocking "in-and-out", look for the minimum
[05:19:47] <gfixler> see, my concern is in getting a pin that mates a certain way with a bore
[05:20:06] <jmkasunich> gfixler: how many different size bores are you interested in?
[05:20:11] <gfixler> you can have a 3/8" shaft that doesn't fit in a 3/8" bore
[05:20:16] <gfixler> though they both read 3/8"
[05:20:17] <jmkasunich> if you do a lot of the same size, pins is the way to go
[05:20:20] <gfixler> because one is 0.0001 off
[05:20:32] <gfixler> that's the biggest problem
[05:20:36] <gfixler> unknown numbers
[05:20:45] <gfixler> likely I'll need whatever size pin I don't have :)
[05:20:57] <gfixler> however
[05:21:00] <jmkasunich> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=890-9739&PMPXNO=5215207
[05:21:06] <gfixler> I can certainly imagine constraining myself
[05:21:13] <tomp> press fit, shrink fit, slip fit.... you just need a box of adjustable holes
[05:21:19] <gfixler> e.g. - maybe I just design with even numbers
[05:21:24] <gfixler> forget 0.017
[05:21:27] <gfixler> use 0.018
[05:21:40] <gfixler> most everything I do will be my own designs - not trying to match something else
[05:21:50] <jmkasunich> if you are designing stuff, you could probably limit yourself to a half dozen sizes
[05:21:54] <gfixler> true
[05:22:05] <jmkasunich> 3/8, 1/4, 3/16. 1/8, 1/16, 1/32
[05:22:15] <jmkasunich> get ordinary steel dowel pins
[05:22:20] <gfixler> I've thought of machining my own pins
[05:22:23] <jmkasunich> mic them with the best mic you have
[05:22:27] <gfixler> but you need to precision grind, really
[05:22:30] <jmkasunich> they will probably be a tiny bit oversize
[05:22:31] <gfixler> and I don't know how to do that
[05:22:42] <gfixler> yeah, I have aluminum bars here in some of those sizes
[05:22:44] <gfixler> and they're all a bit over
[05:22:44] <jmkasunich> then polish off 0.0001 at a time with fine emery
[05:22:59] <gfixler> yeah
[05:23:04] <gfixler> that's a big skill thing
[05:23:15] <gfixler> polishing evenly along the length, and around the circumference
[05:23:16] <jmkasunich> you could make yourself a set of dowels, one is 0.0002 over nominal, one is at nominal, and one is 0.0002 under
[05:23:28] <gfixler> true
[05:23:35] <gfixler> wow, my digicals only go to 0.0005
[05:23:40] <jmkasunich> spin it in the lathe - that will make the circumference problem go away
[05:23:45] <gfixler> yeah
[05:23:56] <gfixler> how then to keep the measurement along the length, though?
[05:24:00] <gfixler> I've been wondering about that a bit recently
[05:24:06] <jmkasunich> calipers aren't good to much better than a thou - the jaws bend, and you can't control the pressure consistently
[05:24:07] <gfixler> I have been looking for an excuse to buy some calipers
[05:24:11] <gfixler> I mean a micrometer
[05:24:21] <gfixler> this would be a good reason
[05:24:36] <tomp> reaming with water versus oil gets you .0001 diff, enuf to make one snug and one slip, there's lotsa tricks ( even a shim along the reamer side )
[05:24:50] <gfixler> wow
[05:24:59] <gfixler> that's an impressively fussy difference
[05:25:09] <jmkasunich> tomp has a good point - if you are interested in making precision holes to fit pins into, don't worry about measuring them
[05:25:15] <jmkasunich> just get the appropriate reamers
[05:25:31] <gfixler> good call
[05:25:32] <jmkasunich> for example, for 1/4" dowels (which turn out to be 0.0002 oversize), I have two reamers
[05:25:52] <gfixler> you drill, then ream?
[05:25:57] <jmkasunich> one is 0.250something, and makes a nice smooth slip fit, the other is 0.2497, and makes a force fit
[05:26:05] <gfixler> cool
[05:26:07] <jmkasunich> right, drill 17/64
[05:26:23] <gfixler> reamers are sweet
[05:26:31] <gfixler> I like that they can impart different fits
[05:26:31] <SWPadnos> 17/64 seems a bit too big
[05:26:36] <jmkasunich> oops, 15/64
[05:26:41] <SWPadnos> :)
[05:26:43] <gfixler> :)
[05:26:56] <gfixler> SWPadnos: are you a robot?
[05:27:02] <jmkasunich> crap - 1:26am, and I still haven't walked the dog
[05:27:08] <SWPadnos> I wasn't last I checked
[05:27:15] <gfixler> ah, east coast
[05:27:18] <SWPadnos> oops
[05:27:21] <tomp> argh g'nite
[05:27:22] <gfixler> it's 10:30 in LA
[05:27:24] <gfixler> night!
[05:27:25] <SWPadnos> yes, here too. it may be time for bed
[05:27:25] <jmkasunich> cleveland OH actually
[05:27:30] <gfixler> ah ha
[05:27:37] <gfixler> well thanks so much for all the discussion
[05:27:38] <jmkasunich> SWP is more east - connecticut
[05:27:42] <SWPadnos> LA - how's the weather this week?
[05:27:43] <gfixler> I picked up a ton of great info
[05:27:46] <SWPadnos> Vermont, thank you!
[05:27:47] <gfixler> it's very hot
[05:27:47] <jmkasunich> it was fun
[05:27:49] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[05:27:51] <gfixler> night
[05:27:51] <jmkasunich> oops, sorry
[05:27:59] <SWPadnos> connecticut. how rude
[05:28:20] <gfixler> I'm a cold-weather person, so now begins my months of suffering
[05:28:23] <tomp> http://steampunkworkshop.com/lcd.shtml i want this terminal!
[05:28:28] <SWPadnos> my wife and I were in LA (Santa Monica actually) last week, and it was warmer here than there
[05:28:35] <SWPadnos> we got out just before the heat wave
[05:28:38] <jmkasunich> move to cleveland, you'll have plenty of cold
[05:28:40] <gfixler> yeah
[05:28:45] <gfixler> it was crazy this weekend
[05:29:03] <gfixler> my portable A/C unit couldn't even keep up
[05:29:03] <SWPadnos> now it's raining/snowing here, of course
[05:29:38] <gfixler> that's my ideal weather, believe it or not
[05:29:46] <gfixler> I live in the wrong place
[05:29:54] <gfixler> tomp: make it!
[05:29:59] <SWPadnos> I like it cool as well, though continuous rain or snow isn't ideal for me
[05:30:20] <gfixler> continuous rain and snow makes me feel better about being inside all the time
[05:45:06] <Sweeper> anyone happen to know about how much power one could expect for a laser printer laser?
[05:48:59] <fenn> enough to put your eye out?
[05:49:14] <Sweeper> but enough to melt plastic? engrave stuff maybe?
[05:49:24] <fenn> no
[05:49:53] <fenn> it works by ionizing the plastic to cause a static charge
[05:50:49] <Sweeper> yea
[05:50:57] <Sweeper> I was just wondering how much power :)
[05:51:57] <Sweeper> it has a really big heatsink on it, so I thought it might be plausible
[06:23:45] <K`zan> Sigh, looks like EMC Ubuntu doesn't deal with wireless adapters. Weill root around in it a bit more tomorrow and then get ready to figure out how to route over 100' of ethernet to get to the shop...
[06:23:48] <K`zan> Night all.
[06:24:13] <gfixler> :( night k'zan
[06:44:54] <fenn> gfixler: 6 points of contact to measure a bore is overconstrained. you need 4 (two degrees of freedom: rotation and movement along the bore)
[06:45:34] <gfixler> so 2 'bars' at 90s to each other, and the shaft?
[06:46:09] <gfixler> you know, I was thinking of another option
[06:46:46] <fenn> i dont know how to actually do it, that's just the theory
[06:46:52] <gfixler> like calipers, or telescoping bore gages, but tiny, hardened, ground, perfect balls
[06:47:01] <gfixler> are bore gages ball-tipped?
[06:47:07] <fenn> sometimes
[06:47:10] <fenn> the small ones
[06:47:14] <gfixler> I almost feel like they need to be
[06:47:26] <gfixler> flats wouldn't hit IDs properly
[06:47:28] <fenn> problem is, once you start adjusting it, it's no longer spherical
[06:47:30] <gfixler> there'd be a little arc
[06:47:40] <fenn> oh, you mean the t-handle thingies
[06:47:43] <gfixler> yeah
[06:48:04] <gfixler> alright, new take on the idea.
[06:48:13] <gfixler> jam some putty in there, let it harden, pull it out, and read that :)
[06:48:39] <fenn> i dont really like the t-handle things.. i have a pair of old-school calipers i ground the end of into a sort of rounded shape
[06:48:53] <fenn> so i can adjust with the adjustment screw
[06:49:05] <gfixler> cool
[06:49:11] <gfixler> then lock them down?
[06:49:25] <fenn> different kind of calipers.
[06:49:32] <gfixler> I've found it to be hard to pull calipers back out of a hole without changing their reading
[06:49:52] <fenn> sure, if you were using vernier or dial calipers you'd lock them
[07:42:09] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[08:00:19] <gfixler> night, all!
[09:01:15] <alex_joni> morning all
[09:49:29] <Sweeper> mornign~
[09:54:17] <alex_joni> hi Sweeper
[10:02:02] <Sweeper> hi alex
[10:07:38] <alex_joni> we have the day off over here.. so I'm out to enjoy some sunshine :)
[10:07:42] <alex_joni> catch you all later
[10:08:05] <archivist> mah
[10:08:13] <archivist> not fair
[10:08:13] <Sweeper> interesting, today's a holiday ehre too...
[10:08:27] <alex_joni> archivist: we had monday off too
[10:08:32] <archivist> we get next monday off though
[10:08:39] <alex_joni> :-)
[10:09:27] <Sweeper> oh, catholic holiday
[10:09:34] <Sweeper> make sense~
[10:09:47] <Sweeper> prez here made it a long weekend
[10:09:59] <Sweeper> which means no stepper controllers for me until monday :(
[10:33:00] <archivist> woot a freebee rotary encoder just arrived in the post
[11:24:41] <OoBIGeye> archivist: i hate when that happens :)
[11:25:48] <archivist> hehe, I know its a return from a job, I saw it about a year ago and it had dirt on the scale
[11:26:30] <archivist> 2500 gray absoluts after a google
[11:30:02] <BigJohnT> sucessful test run of the plasma table with the machine torch last night
[11:31:12] <archivist> good
[12:39:15] <BigJohnT> anyone know if the o word call will open a file in pre 2.3 HEAD and what the syntax might be?
[12:39:32] <BigJohnT> I know there was some disscussion on it a while back
[13:30:08] <BigJohnT> anyone know how small of a time the P will use for a G4 dwell?
[13:32:12] <SWPadnos> I'd imagine at least one servo cycle
[13:32:30] <SWPadnos> but I'm not sure what happens if you specify P0, for example
[13:37:19] <BigJohnT> I'm needing 0.1 seconds at the mininum
[13:37:54] <SWPadnos> I don't remember if the number is seconds or milliseconds, but I'm sure the manual will tell you :)
[13:38:05] <jepler> the number is seconds
[13:38:09] <BigJohnT> the manual says seconds
[13:38:19] <SWPadnos> there you go
[13:38:27] <BigJohnT> but I didn't know if it would do 0.1 second
[13:38:33] <SWPadnos> should
[13:39:02] <jepler> I suspect that there is no guarantee that the pause won't be longer than the number given, but it won't be shorter.
[13:39:20] <BigJohnT> I put it in as a test but could not tell if it was 1 second or 1/10 second of actual delay
[13:39:46] <jepler> a little test I ran seems to indicate that "g4p0" actually pauses for about 20ms
[13:40:15] <BigJohnT> cool
[13:40:37] <BigJohnT> it's for the pierce delay for my plasma table
[13:41:43] <BigJohnT> btw, I had a good run last night with the machine torch and using touch off to find the material height at the start of the cut...
[13:42:39] <archivist> we await the video
[13:43:50] <BigJohnT> me too!
[13:44:46] <archivist> btw video creators, use a tripod, so there is less scene change per frame, that should improve the user experience (been watching a few this dinner time)
[13:45:38] <BigJohnT> I don't have a video camera but use my still camera that has a video capture. I do have a tripod left over from 35mm days...
[13:45:55] <BigJohnT> archivist: that is a good itea
[13:46:32] <archivist> I just have a still still camera that does vids
[14:46:43] <tomp> the bottom of the camera almost always has a threaded hole, damn close to 1/4 20, tho i doubt it's exactly that , anyway a cheapo tripod/steady is cheap to do
[14:47:06] <jymm> it's 1/4-20
[14:47:12] <archivist> 1/4 whitworth
[14:47:36] <tomp> ah! why such threads on a 'world' device?
[14:47:54] <archivist> its a very old standard
[14:48:23] <tomp> i had whitworth tap adjusters on my mg midget
[14:48:26] <skunkworks_> witworth - what the hell is a witworth?
[14:48:28] <BigJohnT> I used to get whitworth threads on stuff from Tiwan
[14:48:28] <skunkworks_> ;)
[14:48:48] <tomp> a buck 2 eighty
[15:03:54] <tomp> wo! the steampunk guy wants to do an ECM EMC2 machine http://steampunkworkshop.com/cnc-ecm.shtml
[15:53:54] <Sweeper> steampunk is nerd cancer :v
[15:54:37] <lewin1> lewin1 is now known as lewing_
[17:21:26] <BigJohnT> I need to demag a part after picking it up with a dc magnet. afaik an ac current on the magnet that decreases in voltage will do perfect. I can pulse the ac through the magnet but was wondering if there was some simple way to decrease the voltage from 24 down to 0
[17:22:07] <skunkworks_> pull the object slowly away from the field.
[17:22:18] <skunkworks_> or a variac
[17:24:40] <BigJohnT> the object is stuck to the magnet and is real small
[17:24:54] <BigJohnT> this is a high speed operation
[17:25:11] <BigJohnT> that I must control with a plc
[17:26:14] <skunkworks_> that would be outside my experties..
[17:26:22] <skunkworks_> :)
[17:26:30] <BigJohnT> thanks for the try
[17:27:04] <BigJohnT> pulsing the ac seems to work in testing but always looking for the best solution for any problem
[17:30:49] <tomp2> if a screwdriver gets magnetized, you can whack it, and then it's not magnetized
[17:31:09] <SWPadnos> though sometimes you need to multi-whack it :)
[17:33:24] <rayh> "I'm hell at wacking!" John Book in the movie witness.
[17:34:20] <fenn> BigJohnT: variable/saturable core transformer?
[17:35:00] <BigJohnT> fenn: hmmm let me look that up...
[17:35:12] <tomp2> 2 atoms come out of a bar, one sez "i think i lost an electron in there', the other sez "are you sure?", the first one says "im positive!"
[17:35:22] <fenn> lets you amplify/control an AC signal with a DC signal
[17:35:54] <tomp2> a growler aka de-magnitizer
[17:36:25] <BigJohnT> tomp2 it has to be done with the dc magnet that catches the part...
[17:37:23] <tomp2> is this 1 time or like a chip conveyor full of stuck parts?
[17:37:36] <fenn> it's a DC magnet? what tha heck does that mean?
[17:37:38] <BigJohnT> every 6 seconds 24 hours a day
[17:38:00] <tomp2> ok, automated unsticking, you need a field pulsed i suppose
[17:38:26] <fenn> so you're trying to de-magnetize it or pop the part off?
[17:38:34] <BigJohnT> this guy 5698K211 at mcmaster carr
[17:38:39] <BigJohnT> yes fenn
[17:38:48] <fenn> not a yes/no question.. which one?
[17:38:48] <rayh> Sounds like a job for emc, a pwm out, and a transistor or two.
[17:38:54] <BigJohnT> pop the part off i just caught
[17:38:59] <tomp2> keep a layer between the magnet and the part, thin, but non metallic, increase the distance between the layer and the magnet, the part falls off
[17:39:11] <BigJohnT> yes to both
[17:39:31] <BigJohnT> then I need a slide or cylinder and there is not much space to work
[17:40:18] <fenn> i was thinking if you change the magnetic field fast enough there will be an eddy current in the part which would repel it
[17:40:41] <fenn> really gotta whack the magnet with a high voltage for that though
[17:40:45] <BigJohnT> faster than 60 cycles per second
[17:40:54] <fenn> yes
[17:41:25] <BigJohnT> ok I used a door bell transformer at 16vac and it did pretty good...
[17:41:45] <BigJohnT> after using my 24 vdc on it to pick up the part
[18:13:41] <assargadon> hey there
[18:14:00] <SWPadnos> hi
[18:14:24] <alex_joni> hi
[18:14:29] <assargadon> I just installed this 6.06 ISO
[18:14:32] <assargadon> at least :)
[18:14:57] <assargadon> alex_joni, it was a hard decision :)
[18:15:05] <alex_joni> assargadon: heh, why?
[18:15:25] <assargadon> I mean, should I try dist-upgrade or this installation
[18:15:46] <renesis> um, just reinstall
[18:16:03] <renesis> why would you have anything important anywhere other than /etc and /home and /usr/local?
[18:16:15] <assargadon> I only hope my other two systems will start noramlly
[18:16:18] <alex_joni> renesis: some people keep things in /root
[18:16:28] <renesis> okay well theyre doing it wrong
[18:16:39] <alex_joni> and /var/spool/mail is also interesting
[18:16:48] <renesis> ha fuck local mail
[18:16:55] <renesis> fuck mail daemon in general
[18:16:57] <assargadon> I have a choice now: should I try my other systems work
[18:16:59] <renesis> h8
[18:17:28] <assargadon> or I should begin to gain EMC experience just now :)
[18:17:41] <alex_joni> renesis: also cron is in /avar/
[18:18:06] <renesis> yu can cron from /etc or /home
[18:18:26] <renesis> god i hope you mean var and ubuntu didnt make up some /avar in /
[18:18:47] <alex_joni> renesis: I usually back up /etc /home /root and /var
[18:19:09] <alex_joni> and /usr/share/samba (which i put there..)
[18:19:12] <renesis> var is just a usless place distros argue over
[18:19:23] <assargadon> wow
[18:19:43] <assargadon> I have ugly awfull russificated interface in EMC :)
[18:20:33] <assargadon> How can I switch myself to pure english?
[18:20:41] <renesis> also you should put anything outside of /home except in /usr/local =)
[18:20:54] <renesis> j00 are not distro builder
[18:21:04] <renesis> er, shouldnt put anything
[18:21:25] <renesis> i hate it when they stick shit in var, like httpd roots
[18:21:39] <renesis> gee thanks guys thanks for making me look for it and giving me an extra place to backup
[18:22:10] <alex_joni> assargadon: you know how IB< always says.. "Never touch a running system"
[18:22:11] <renesis> var is almost as bad as opt =(
[18:22:16] <BigJohnT> hey alex_joni: the HOME_FINAL_VEL works like a champ on 2.3
[18:22:29] <alex_joni> assargadon: export LANG=C, before doing emc
[18:23:52] <assargadon> who IB is?
[18:24:04] <assargadon> In every case, he is wrong
[18:25:01] <assargadon> * assargadon feels his system is much slower than 7.10 installation
[18:26:28] <alex_joni> assargadon: crap.. can't type.. IBM I mean
[18:26:37] <alex_joni> assargadon: is it a dual-processor PC?
[18:26:49] <assargadon> hehe, no.
[18:27:02] <assargadon> It's P3-500 machine
[18:27:18] <alex_joni> try latency-test before you try emc2
[18:27:30] <alex_joni> (although the P3's should be very good at realtime)
[18:28:25] <renesis> omg fuck that
[18:28:32] <renesis> i will not do emc below 1GHz ever again
[18:28:52] <SWPadnos> gee renesis, tell us how you really feel
[18:29:01] <renesis> okay
[18:29:04] <SWPadnos> thanks :)
[18:29:16] <renesis> EMC is bloat in terms of sub GHz boxes
[18:29:22] <renesis> especially considering the distro choice
[18:29:37] <renesis> its doable, but its mad work
[18:29:41] <renesis> while turboCNC just works
[18:29:44] <assargadon> renesis, it sounds strange
[18:29:47] <renesis> ut sucks and its dos
[18:29:55] <renesis> but itll push steppers on a 200MHz machine
[18:30:07] <SWPadnos> different beast, of course
[18:30:09] <renesis> trying EMC on a 200MHz machine is a joke
[18:30:13] <assargadon> as far as most production controllers really much, much slower that 1 ghz
[18:30:17] <renesis> yeah but EMC cant do slow machines
[18:30:23] <alex_joni> renesis: why not?
[18:30:26] <renesis> and alot of it is ubuntu
[18:30:35] <SWPadnos> you're right - it's harder to get things working on slow ma
[18:30:37] <renesis> um, because its time critial realtime on a OS not made for that
[18:30:38] <SWPadnos> machines
[18:30:39] <skunkworks_> what do you concider slow?? I have run dapper on 400mhz machines..
[18:30:41] <renesis> DOS is almost machine level
[18:30:47] <alex_joni> install a server machine, without X
[18:30:53] <alex_joni> then emc2 on it with keystick
[18:30:53] <renesis> the OS sucks but its prob as close to the hardware as you can get
[18:31:06] <renesis> im using EMC right now, i love it, but ill never ever try to put it on a subGHz box again
[18:31:20] <skunkworks_> turbocnc is nice.. until you want blending.. and a mouse.
[18:31:27] <renesis> respectfully, it is failure compared to turbocnc at sub GHz
[18:31:29] <SWPadnos> or a network connection
[18:31:37] <renesis> whatevger
[18:31:41] <renesis> this aint about computers
[18:31:44] <renesis> this about making parts
[18:31:53] <renesis> CNC machine dont need a net connect
[18:31:55] <assargadon> hey guys...I was critic several last days :)
[18:32:05] <assargadon> And when I beat myself
[18:32:12] <assargadon> and install EMC at all
[18:32:13] <renesis> EMC is awesome
[18:32:18] <renesis> its a dog on sub GHz boxes
[18:32:24] <assargadon> YOU beggining criticise it :)
[18:32:25] <renesis> maybe you guys dont run microstepped drives, i dunno
[18:32:29] <skunkworks_> * skunkworks_ started out using turbocnc.
[18:32:37] <renesis> no dude i have experience with all three popular software controllers
[18:32:53] <renesis> and EMC on several boxes, abnd machines prob 50 circuit boards and dozens of metal parts
[18:33:06] <assargadon> so...what I should do now, when EMC installed?
[18:33:16] <assargadon> Should I read Manual? :)
[18:33:16] <renesis> with EMC, and i can feel pretty secure saying its a dog at sub GHz compared to turbocnc
[18:33:32] <renesis> turbocnc sucks, but it can push microstepped open loop systems at 200MHz
[18:33:42] <renesis> EMC on a system like that is fail, totally and utterly
[18:33:57] <renesis> granted, EMC does more (im speaking in combination with axis gui)
[18:34:03] <renesis> but the real killer:
[18:34:08] <renesis> EMC variable system is complete fucking ass
[18:34:24] <renesis> total shit, unless it got 300% better in the last couple versions
[18:34:41] <renesis> thank god it got away from the #numbered variables
[18:35:37] <renesis> so yeah, sub GHz, and if i needed to write a program with variables (i just dont now, because EMC is so bad at it and i use EMC) i would use turbocnc
[18:36:09] <renesis> i dont give a fuck about linux vs microsoft anymore, linux fails horribly at CAD and EDA
[18:36:35] <renesis> eagle runs in linux, buts its considerably slower, and GEDA is useless for a few more years if they do everything right from now on
[18:36:52] <renesis> qcad is functional commercial leftovers from ribbonsoft
[18:37:15] <renesis> not exactly what id call ideal, so i have to run a windows machine for CAD and EDA anyway
[18:38:04] <skunkworks_> assargadon: yes - read the manual. cover to cover.
[18:38:28] <renesis> emc is the best thing going if you have money for a dedicated GHz+ system and dont want to work with variables in gcode
[18:38:35] <assargadon> What manual? Users Guide or Integrators Manual?
[18:38:46] <skunkworks_> start with the users guide
[18:38:50] <alex_joni> assargadon: if you want to use it, then User Guide first
[18:39:05] <assargadon> :)
[18:39:09] <renesis> your so yeah, thats how i really feel
[18:39:14] <SWPadnos> ok, thanks
[18:39:14] <renesis> -your
[18:39:17] <assargadon> Is there any king path to the EMC? :)
[18:39:57] <assargadon> what is PID?
[18:40:18] <assargadon> "...output is based on PID compensation...."
[18:40:20] <SWPadnos> a control algorithm: Proportional, Integral, Derivative
[18:40:34] <awallin> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller
[18:40:35] <skunkworks_> assargadon: running a stepper machine?
[18:41:01] <assargadon> skunkworks: hmmm...yes.
[18:41:17] <skunkworks_> then you really don't need to worry about pid.
[18:41:17] <rayh> I don't know renesis I've been programming variables since 1996 without major issues.
[18:41:58] <assargadon> skunkworks: ah, in this therms :)
[18:42:11] <assargadon> skunkworks: then no, my machine is servo
[18:42:45] <skunkworks_> Ok :)
[18:42:51] <assargadon> skunkworks: I just recognize you question incorrectly
[18:43:17] <SWPadnos> are you using step-to-servo drives, like Geckodrives?
[18:43:24] <assargadon> skunkworks: I thoughts you asking me if I have theoretical interest or running something
[18:43:39] <assargadon> and you asked about steepers or servo ;)
[18:43:40] <cradek> rayh: I think it's hard to guess how to improve on a system that is reportedly "complete fucking ass" - so ignoring complaints like that is probably best
[18:43:52] <skunkworks_> heh
[18:44:14] <assargadon> SWPadnos, I don't know for sure what is step-to-servo is
[18:44:34] <assargadon> my old soviet robot has DC motors
[18:44:36] <SWPadnos> motor drives that take step and direction input, but run servo motors rather than stepper motors
[18:44:37] <rayh> Uh Yep but I couldn't resist.
[18:44:40] <assargadon> and optical encoders
[18:44:50] <renesis> 11:44 < rayh> I don't know renesis I've been programming variables since 1996 without major issues.
[18:44:57] <renesis> with #'s, apperently
[18:45:06] <assargadon> SWPadnos, then no for sure :)
[18:45:24] <renesis> i mena fuckit why not just code in raw memory pointers
[18:45:28] <SWPadnos> DC servo drives can take a number of different inputs, including analog velocity or torque commands
[18:45:30] <assargadon> all computer can made is start motor and stop it
[18:45:33] <renesis> wouldnt be any harder to double check
[18:45:46] <rayh> Hell I wrote the first manual on variables while still running RedHat 5.1.
[18:45:49] <assargadon> (in selected direction of course)
[18:45:56] <renesis> okay so youre not anything close to a normal avg user
[18:46:06] <renesis> youre a dev
[18:46:12] <renesis> or at least involved
[18:46:22] <assargadon> and it can asquire robot, if encoter "enabled" or "disabled" (shadowed) now
[18:46:31] <assargadon> *encoder
[18:46:33] <BigJohnT> ok I'm an average user
[18:46:37] <rayh> Asd you are correct that g-code is not a very "computer programmer" friendly language.
[18:46:41] <renesis> no
[18:46:45] <renesis> gcode is totally easy to read
[18:46:50] <renesis> gcode is the easiest language
[18:47:00] <SWPadnos> um, out of curiosity, what does TurboCNC do with variables that EMC doesn't?
[18:47:10] <renesis> okay you guys argue with me that #'d variables are totally awesome and acceptable
[18:47:26] <renesis> im pretty sure you can do words, and not eccentrically
[18:47:32] <rayh> But it does work pretty well for guys used to making chips by turning cranks.
[18:47:37] <renesis> i dont remember using the word variables was any easier, first implimentation
[18:47:47] <SWPadnos> looking at a manual for TCNC v4.01, I don't see any ovious difference between EMC and TCNC, except for some restrictions on where you can use vars in TCNC
[18:47:56] <SWPadnos> obvious, taht was
[18:47:58] <SWPadnos> that
[18:48:03] <renesis> right, words vs #s
[18:48:11] <SWPadnos> no, there are no words in TCNC
[18:48:11] <renesis> and i remember there was something weird about words
[18:48:15] <SWPadnos> only numbers
[18:48:17] <renesis> at least first implimentation
[18:48:18] <SWPadnos> up to 10000
[18:48:26] <renesis> im pretty sure there are words
[18:48:34] <SWPadnos> http://www.dakeng.com/man/turbocnc.html#_Toc90515777
[18:48:38] <SWPadnos> that says there aren't
[18:48:58] <renesis> i dont believe theres docs youd have to demonstrate
[18:49:02] <renesis> or show me in program docs
[18:49:14] <renesis> *their
[18:49:26] <renesis> i actually dont like turbocnc at all =(
[18:49:32] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:49:36] <cradek> * cradek rolls his eyes
[18:50:16] <SWPadnos> that was their program docs, by the way
[18:50:20] <renesis> that thing has major bad errors
[18:50:21] <cradek> tcnc and emc variables (and expressions) look very similar to me
[18:50:29] <renesis> no im saying their in program docs
[18:50:35] <renesis> i dont trust that project at all
[18:51:20] <cradek> but is it complete fucking ass?
[18:51:29] <renesis> weird maybe it was one of the controller at school did word variables
[18:51:31] <renesis> yes cradek
[18:51:32] <renesis> it is
[18:51:36] <renesis> \i dont care about the competition
[18:51:38] <cradek> that's good to know
[18:51:40] <renesis> you guys should be better
[18:51:50] <renesis> so i can tell people who fucking awesome EMC is
[18:52:10] <renesis> *how
[18:52:11] <cradek> if you have a proposal for an improvement to gcode, you should write it up in a careful and thoughtful way
[18:52:13] <SWPadnos> so what are your (realistic) requirements for the Awesome rating?
[18:52:21] <renesis> yeah thats fine, one day when i have time
[18:52:30] <SWPadnos> I mean, iGHz step pulsing on a 100Mhz CPU is obviously unreasonable
[18:52:33] <renesis> label = value
[18:52:38] <renesis> and literal insertions in code
[18:52:43] <cradek> "you should be fucking awesome instead of complete fucking ass" is useless and just makes people ignore you.
[18:52:43] <SWPadnos> err - 1 GHz
[18:52:48] <renesis> with maybe some sort of variable marker prefix
[18:52:58] <renesis> just like assembly language
[18:53:10] <SWPadnos> like #thisvar = 10.0 ?
[18:53:15] <renesis> if assemblers can handle it, i dont see why a gcode interpeter cant
[18:53:20] <renesis> being that gcode is a higher level language
[18:53:34] <SWPadnos> or #thatvar = [#thisvar * sin[#theothervar]]
[18:53:42] <renesis> yes i think thats maybe how it works now, but i remember there was something eccentric about the EMC variables in the version i used
[18:53:49] <jepler> I want gcode to look like this: http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/nc_files/flowsnake.py?rev=1.1;content-type=text%2Fplain or maybe this http://axis.unpy.net/files/01167315565/example.gcl
[18:53:51] <rayh> Um nothing higher level about gcode.
[18:53:54] <renesis> um
[18:53:57] <renesis> yes there is
[18:54:00] <SWPadnos> assemblers have the advantage of multi-pass parsing
[18:54:01] <jepler> can someone please add that feature to emc?
[18:54:02] <renesis> its an intepreted langiage
[18:54:12] <renesis> youre not feeding a processor raw gcode in prom
[18:54:16] <renesis> its converted
[18:54:20] <SWPadnos> no it isn't
[18:54:26] <renesis> um,. yes it is
[18:54:29] <SWPadnos> there is no intermediate representation of G-code
[18:54:30] <renesis> assembly language is lower
[18:54:35] <renesis> gcode is an intepreted language
[18:54:39] <renesis> now you guys are bothering me
[18:54:41] <SWPadnos> wait, that's a stupid conversation
[18:54:44] <renesis> yeah really
[18:54:59] <renesis> gcode is a higher level language in context of raw processor machine code
[18:55:00] <SWPadnos> G-code can't be done the same way as assembly because it's executed inline, there is no pre-parsing of variable names
[18:55:14] <SWPadnos> and there's no fix-up pass
[18:55:15] <renesis> okay why not
[18:55:15] <jepler> oh wait -- gcode *can* look like that, when you configure axis to use program filters
[18:55:37] <renesis> scan the header for variable definitions
[18:55:50] <renesis> replace any variable occurance with the literal value of the variable
[18:56:09] <renesis> cmon i could code that on a microcontroller you guys cant code that on EMC?
[18:56:10] <SWPadnos> are you looking for the equivalent of #include files?
[18:56:11] <rayh> But then it isn't really rs274xx
[18:56:23] <renesis> when then add a suffix to it
[18:56:24] <jepler> renesis: you clearly know a lot of this. Why not volunteer your time and write it? emc2 is improved only when people contribute improvements.
[18:56:26] <assargadon> heh, there are a lot of text in this manual, heh :)
[18:56:30] <renesis> call is rs274-nbetter
[18:56:39] <renesis> i dont do higher level code
[18:56:50] <renesis> sorry im not trying to waste my time on software
[18:57:00] <renesis> i have far more interesting shit to hack
[18:57:09] <alex_joni> then why waste ours?
[18:57:16] <renesis> fuck crashing computers, its all about crashing tools and circuits
[18:57:33] <SWPadnos> well, if you'd like to write up what you'd like to see, people can then look at it and critique the ideas
[18:57:38] <renesis> if you think criticism of your program is a waste of time, that says alot =)
[18:57:50] <renesis> yes well, when i have time
[18:58:02] <SWPadnos> criticism in the form of "your shit sucks ass" is a waste of time
[18:58:03] <renesis> EMC is not what i have decided to do with my life at this point in time
[18:58:07] <renesis> naw
[18:58:18] <renesis> you shit sucks ass is an abtsracted way of saying it can be better
[18:58:24] <alex_joni> renesis: so why are you here then?
[18:58:25] <SWPadnos> criticism in the form of "named parameters would be nice" is not a waste of time
[18:58:32] <renesis> because i love EMC
[18:58:33] <alex_joni> I have no problem with constructive criticism
[18:58:42] <renesis> okay well you have a prob with bad words?
[18:58:52] <alex_joni> renesis: usually yes
[18:58:52] <renesis> i said that
[18:59:00] <renesis> because numbered parameters are complete fucking ass
[18:59:11] <BigJohnT> sounds like my ex could not please her no matter what you do
[18:59:23] <renesis> dude is an assember can turn mnemonics and variables into hex, EMC should be able to do it too
[18:59:33] <renesis> gcode is a higher level language than asm
[18:59:38] <SWPadnos> step 1 in constructive criticism: look at the documentation first, to see if your criticism is still applicable
[18:59:41] <renesis> asm is literal, gcode is interpreted
[18:59:52] <alex_joni> asm is not literal
[18:59:56] <SWPadnos> step 2: see if the latest version of the software still exhibits the problem
[19:00:05] <renesis> i dont see how reading variables in a head and replacing them in the following lines is hard t code
[19:00:06] <rayh> There is a very old part programming (APT) language that might meet your interests.
[19:00:15] <rayh> There are a couple pages on it in the wiki.
[19:00:21] <renesis> maybe it breaks strict rs274 compliance
[19:00:27] <renesis> but really, who cares
[19:00:30] <SWPadnos> step 3: if and only if both of those tests fail, make a constructive suggestion about what you want to see and why
[19:00:36] <alex_joni> and as jepler pointed out you can always use a filter on your files
[19:00:39] <BigJohnT> so why not do it
[19:00:40] <renesis> as long as you can feed it rs274 and it works, whats the prob with extra functionality
[19:00:50] <renesis> gcode spec is like from the 70s
[19:01:15] <SWPadnos> yep, and any extension still needs to support those old flavors unmodified
[19:01:22] <SWPadnos> that's the hard part
[19:01:25] <renesis> um
[19:01:34] <renesis> theres absolutely no characters you can use to escape a variable?
[19:01:36] <renesis> cmon
[19:01:49] <renesis> i dont even see how this would break strict rs274 compliance at all
[19:01:56] <SWPadnos> there is a variable escape character, it's "#"
[19:02:00] <rayh> What circumstance would you want to escape a variable.
[19:02:02] <alex_joni> you can use named parameters with the latest emc2
[19:02:02] <renesis> if numbers dont how do words?
[19:02:17] <alex_joni> but I guess trying it out would be too much
[19:02:19] <renesis> so your super strict rs274 interpreter knows its a variable
[19:02:22] <renesis> and not gcode omg
[19:02:34] <renesis> i did try it
[19:02:39] <SWPadnos> the sample code I posted earlier (with named variables) should actualy work, it wasn't hypothetical (though it may have had syntax errors - I didn't check it)
[19:02:40] <renesis> i remember it being odd for some reason
[19:02:50] <renesis> so im not 100% what im bitching about isnt implimented
[19:02:58] <rayh> x#1000 is a perfectly good use of a variable
[19:03:16] <renesis> x#point1
[19:03:18] <renesis> is better
[19:03:19] <SWPadnos> and don't try it on EMC2 2.0.1 or some BDI, get the latest liveCD to test
[19:03:28] <SWPadnos> that's also legal now, I believe
[19:03:32] <awallin> * awallin thinks SNR has dropped a bit on this channel lately...
[19:03:42] <renesis> yeah i remember trying it and being pissed off by something abut implimentation
[19:03:47] <alex_joni> awallin: it's negative
[19:03:56] <alex_joni> (which is way odd for a ration)
[19:04:00] <SWPadnos> you may need to use [] to enclose the variable name
[19:04:14] <renesis> and #?
[19:04:15] <SWPadnos> G-code by definition removes all spaces and is case insensitive
[19:04:36] <renesis> what does that matter, whitespace doesnt do anything
[19:04:41] <renesis> thats why there are words
[19:04:43] <SWPadnos> also, every letter except E (and maybe E now) is used as a programming word
[19:04:56] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: E is used too
[19:04:58] <renesis> okay so dont use a letter as a variable prefix obviously
[19:05:02] <SWPadnos> HELLO is an H word, an E word, two L words, and an O word
[19:05:13] <SWPadnos> identical to H E L L o
[19:05:18] <rayh> What's a "Named parameter not terminated" message mean?
[19:05:22] <renesis> yeah what does this have to do with the topic
[19:05:27] <renesis> trust, i know this shit
[19:05:52] <SWPadnos> I don't trust that, since you've been complaining about missing features that actually aren't missing
[19:05:58] <renesis> anyway, you guys have a problem with a user who loves your product telling you a feature is ass, thats cool
[19:06:04] <renesis> says alot =)
[19:06:05] <SWPadnos> and you've said that TCNC can do things which its own manual says it can't
[19:06:15] <renesis> well i may be mistaken
[19:06:21] <renesis> so feel free to troll me for that
[19:06:29] <SWPadnos> could be (I could be also, I only know what I saw in the manual)
[19:06:32] <renesis> maybe it was another controller im remembering
[19:06:50] <renesis> but i really dont trust the project, so i dont see a manual as proof of anything
[19:07:02] <alex_joni> renesis: the minute you provide usefull feedback you'll be taken seriously
[19:07:05] <renesis> anyway, its got some issues
[19:07:09] <renesis> alex_joni: i have
[19:07:11] <renesis> read up
[19:07:12] <alex_joni> no kidding
[19:07:27] <alex_joni> renesis: I did say _usefull_
[19:07:30] <renesis> sorry if you cant see thru the creative use of the language
[19:07:34] <SWPadnos> proof is in testing, which you should do with EMC2 before swearing at us
[19:07:39] <renesis> yeah right, now whos being pointlessly critical
[19:07:43] <renesis> so you code the app?
[19:07:51] <renesis> or you just adding your two cents
[19:07:53] <alex_joni> renesis: yes we do
[19:07:58] <renesis> i have tested variables
[19:08:01] <renesis> it was hellish
[19:08:01] <rayh> found it "Named parameters work like numbered parameters but are easier to read. All parameter names are
[19:08:01] <rayh> converted to lower case and have spaces and tabs removed. Named parameters must be enclosed
[19:08:01] <rayh> with < > marks.
[19:08:01] <rayh> "
[19:08:18] <renesis> yeah i tried them
[19:08:19] <SWPadnos> ok, so my syntax was wrong
[19:08:22] <SWPadnos> how long ago?
[19:08:36] <renesis> there was something weird about them, but maybe it was a first implimentation thing, i dunno
[19:08:41] <SWPadnos> how long ago?
[19:08:44] <renesis> like i said, as soon as it happened
[19:08:52] <renesis> i dont know youre involved in the project not me
[19:09:01] <renesis> you tell me when it happened, you prob know where the changelogs are
[19:09:08] <SWPadnos> I'm asking you how long ago you tested
[19:09:15] <renesis> docs are in like 3 diff places i never know which is the authority
[19:09:21] <renesis> im saying when it was implimented
[19:09:25] <renesis> so prob within the last year
[19:09:40] <alex_joni> renesis: that's why I mentioned _usefull_
[19:09:44] <SWPadnos> so far you haven't provided any concrete information about EMC or TurboCNC which hasn't been contradicted by either documentation or examples
[19:09:46] <rayh> Ha it works g0x#<point1>
[19:09:49] <renesis> and ive said its maybe been sorted, i dunno
[19:09:53] <renesis> alex_joni: drop it man
[19:09:58] <renesis> thats the 3rd time now
[19:10:11] <renesis> if someone has a prob with what im saying, bans happen
[19:10:17] <SWPadnos> you can even do G#<movementmode>X#<point1X>
[19:10:18] <alex_joni> renesis: all you did so far was wasting about 1h
[19:10:24] <alex_joni> renesis: we don't ban people here..
[19:10:25] <renesis> haha
[19:10:28] <renesis> omg 1hour
[19:10:47] <renesis> i have to flip a board brb
[19:11:01] <rayh> Nah. renesis did something useful -- he made me rtfm.
[19:11:24] <SWPadnos> heh
[19:11:44] <renesis> anyway, if im wrong and its fixed, fine
[19:11:47] <BigJohnT> well this is boring
[19:11:55] <renesis> or if i was just using the first implimentation wrong, fine
[19:12:09] <rayh> Now to setup the variables <first_base>, <second_base>...<home_plate>
[19:12:14] <renesis> but the fact that theres word variables now obviously proves that numbered variables are less useful
[19:12:32] <rayh> Nope. I found the opposite.
[19:12:33] <renesis> which was my main point, which people tried to argue was perfectly fine, which i think is really silly
[19:12:34] <SWPadnos> ok, so one of your major complaints has been addressed already, what's next?
[19:12:43] <renesis> i dont care is turbocnc is the same, turbocnc sucks, emc should suck
[19:12:47] <rayh> It takes more keystrokes to do named than numbered.
[19:12:53] <rayh> see my examples above
[19:13:05] <renesis> yeah try and keep track of 30 variables without constantly rechecking
[19:13:07] <SWPadnos> I was actually contradicting your statements about EMC missing named variables (and TCNC having them) usefulness is user-dependent
[19:13:17] <renesis> because like, i dunno i dont have many convos in pounds and numbers
[19:13:40] <SWPadnos> one thing you can do with numbered parameters is use indirection - not possible at this point with named variables (since you can't store a name in a var)
[19:13:45] <renesis> and if it wasnt turbocnc it was some other controlle,r maybe something at school
[19:14:00] <SWPadnos> so you can do things like G0X##20, and it will use the value of the variable number stored in #20
[19:14:03] <rayh> It would appear as if the # "escapes" a variable and <> escapes a named one.
[19:14:04] <renesis> um
[19:14:34] <SWPadnos> so each has its uses
[19:14:53] <renesis> okay so if something works with numbers and not letter variables, im thinking you guys still arent done
[19:15:24] <renesis> so ill wait longer to bitch i guess (i dont see why they would be implimented diff and have diff usage and if you guys wanna argue that, by all means go at it)
[19:15:55] <renesis> which is maybe why i was going nuts trying to do shit i was doing with numbered variable with the word variables
[19:16:24] <rayh> Darn SWPadnos's ## works.
[19:16:34] <rayh> We've got pointers.
[19:16:34] <renesis> but yeah thats obviously user error, not knowing theres two diff parallel variable systems working in EMC
[19:17:03] <rayh> * rayh gets caught in a user error.
[19:17:22] <SWPadnos> rayh, try ### some time :)
[19:17:30] <renesis> yeah btw sorry for wasting all your times talking about the program
[19:17:36] <rayh> Okay
[19:18:42] <assargadon> agggr
[19:18:43] <SWPadnos> hmmm. I wonder if you can do stuff like #[#10+#11]
[19:18:43] <renesis> ha damn i just pulled the tool out instead of flipping the board
[19:18:45] <renesis> btw
[19:18:53] <rayh> Yep it (###) works
[19:18:56] <assargadon> I reading and reading...and I know all this stuff :)
[19:19:10] <renesis> 2L .005 tip 30degree pyramid cutters = totally awesome
[19:19:16] <SWPadnos> I think you can go 10 levels deep or something like that
[19:19:18] <renesis> fuck single flute half rounds
[19:19:38] <SWPadnos> do *NOT* tell us how you feel about single flute half-rounds
[19:19:40] <SWPadnos> :)
[19:19:46] <renesis> and only $12
[19:19:53] <renesis> well, actually i love them
[19:19:54] <alex_joni> renesis: do you feel some special pleasure when swearing?
[19:20:02] <renesis> ive done most my boards for this project with a broken one
[19:20:04] <renesis> at .015 DRC
[19:20:14] <renesis> acemi: yeah man fuck off what does have to do with shit?>
[19:20:16] <renesis> im from efnet
[19:20:25] <renesis> im actuaqly being really nice right now
[19:20:34] <renesis> relatively speaking
[19:20:35] <skunkworks_> how nice of you
[19:20:40] <renesis> yeah i try
[19:21:24] <renesis> alex_joni: do you take special pleasure in making personal comments that have nothing to do with technical issues?
[19:21:33] <renesis> cuz shit like that in #electronics makes me wanna stab
[19:21:33] <rayh> It's been fun. Now I've got to get out the four wheeler and run down something for dinner.
[19:21:39] <renesis> omg dinner
[19:21:42] <renesis> * renesis envy
[19:22:16] <alex_joni> renesis: this is not efnet, nor is this a channel for bored teens
[19:22:21] <renesis> im 27
[19:22:30] <renesis> and im only board because the machine working =(
[19:22:37] <renesis> again
[19:22:42] <renesis> youre making trolling comments
[19:22:47] <renesis> please stop, thank you
[19:24:43] <SWPadnos> renesis, in my opinion, youhave been trolling nearly the entire time you've been posting this session
[19:24:47] <assargadon> Hey, gooroos, can I look trought parts like "stepdir configuration"
[19:24:56] <renesis> ah well thats a matter of opinion
[19:25:00] <assargadon> without carefully read them?
[19:25:01] <SWPadnos> yes, it is
[19:25:02] <renesis> i have made no personal comments on anyone
[19:25:10] <renesis> so if im trolling, im trolling EMC code
[19:25:17] <assargadon> I got the idea, but I have completely different situation
[19:25:25] <renesis> and im def not trolling EMC coders, because i have stated several time that i <3 emc
[19:25:40] <SWPadnos> assargadon, if you won't be using step/direction, you can skim that section
[19:25:50] <assargadon> I want :)
[19:25:52] <renesis> only alex_joni has taken this to a personal level
[19:25:56] <assargadon> I just haven't :)
[19:26:10] <SWPadnos> well, you're chatting with the emc coders, so saying that the code (our code) sucks ass is kind of a personal insult
[19:26:34] <SWPadnos> it's kind of equivalent to "you're a bunch of idiots"
[19:26:39] <renesis> well, because its true
[19:26:44] <renesis> i think that part of the code is ass
[19:26:47] <assargadon> LOL :))
[19:26:50] <renesis> that doesnt mean i think the devs are ass
[19:26:58] <renesis> just means that they prob orking on more important stuff
[19:27:04] <renesis> big project yo, lots of pieces =)
[19:27:04] <assargadon> <SWPadnos>it's kind of equivalent to "you're a bunch of idiots"
[19:27:06] <assargadon> <renesis>well, because its true
[19:27:14] <renesis> no
[19:27:18] <renesis> not that youre a bunch of idiots
[19:27:23] <assargadon> I understand :)
[19:27:31] <assargadon> But it's looks funny :)
[19:27:31] <renesis> my opinions on the app are true
[19:27:39] <renesis> i <3 the devs, god how many times i gotta say
[19:27:40] <SWPadnos> what's more, you are making complaints that are now irrelevant, and you obviously haven't refreshed your evaluation of EMC2 before complaining
[19:27:45] <SWPadnos> I get it
[19:27:58] <SWPadnos> I assumed our comments crossed in the mail :)
[19:28:02] <renesis> actually my way bigger complaint was EMC distro choice and speed requirements
[19:28:10] <renesis> the variables thing was just a tangent
[19:28:14] <SWPadnos> you can run EMC on any Linux + RT kernel
[19:28:26] <SWPadnos> the distribution is for easy installation
[19:28:29] <renesis> also if they dont act similar, the numbered and worded variables, then that may have been my issue
[19:28:39] <renesis> and i dont see why there would be two variable systems
[19:28:54] <SWPadnos> Alex suggested using a server install and keystick, which would look a lot like TCNC, but should work on a much lower spec PC
[19:29:00] <SWPadnos> ther eis only one variable system
[19:29:05] <renesis> yeah sorry man
[19:29:14] <renesis> im not trying to hax0r linux for my cnc
[19:29:26] <SWPadnos> but variables can only contain numbers, so indirection doesn't work on named variables (or at least can't point at named vars)
[19:29:30] <renesis> i did that for years and years for fun, and now i got other shit to do and way less time
[19:30:00] <renesis> why not, just number the variables in the preprocessor and then make them interchangeable with the numbers
[19:30:01] <SWPadnos> if you install ubuntu server, you can still install EMC2 packages for it
[19:30:06] <SWPadnos> there is no preprocessor
[19:30:10] <renesis> ubuntu server isnt much lighter
[19:30:17] <renesis> i believe it still runs mad pointless daemons
[19:30:22] <SWPadnos> probably
[19:30:23] <renesis> tho its been a couple years since i tried it
[19:30:41] <SWPadnos> you certainly don't need LAMP for EMC
[19:30:43] <renesis> anyway its usually fine once i go thru and kill service init and switch to blackbox
[19:30:56] <renesis> gnome is an issue
[19:31:04] <SWPadnos> you can use xfce if you like
[19:31:12] <SWPadnos> EMC can install onto xubuntu too AFAIK
[19:31:19] <renesis> i can use blackbox if i like
[19:31:21] <SWPadnos> and that's just for the pre-built packages
[19:31:29] <renesis> i have, axis is fine
[19:31:33] <renesis> and i get a real window manager
[19:31:35] <SWPadnos> you can also get just the RT kernel, and compile EMC for yourself
[19:31:37] <renesis> not some explorer shell wannabe
[19:31:43] <renesis> yeah i really dont want to
[19:31:49] <SWPadnos> or compile it all yourself - lots of options
[19:31:52] <renesis> i know i can, but thats not what i do with my time anymore
[19:32:07] <renesis> yes i know, but you chose a default distro, and im not particularly happy with the choice
[19:32:12] <renesis> although i do see the point
[19:32:29] <renesis> ubuntu is the shit for non-vanilla binary distros
[19:32:46] <SWPadnos> I don't believe there is any distro at the moment that will work on a low-spec PC *and* has drivers for modern hardware
[19:32:51] <renesis> i cant stand deb but ubuntu installs always go nice and smooth and hardware detection is ace
[19:33:10] <renesis> slackware, gentoo, prob arc
[19:33:16] <SWPadnos> the idea was to make installation as painless as possible for average users
[19:33:18] <renesis> arch?
[19:33:20] <renesis> i think arch
[19:33:25] <renesis> yes i know
[19:33:34] <SWPadnos> which usually includes connectivity with Windows networks, since as you mentioned CAD/CAM on Linux is a bit lacking
[19:33:36] <renesis> and i believe that was a bad choice for a RT system =)
[19:33:41] <renesis> but yeah you guys succeed, it is easy
[19:33:48] <renesis> and machinists not always lunix nuts
[19:33:50] <SWPadnos> well, it's RT + GUIs + networking
[19:33:51] <renesis> so yeah, understood
[19:33:54] <renesis> yeah
[19:34:13] <renesis> ubuntu detection and setup is as good as anything
[19:34:20] <SWPadnos> at some point, I may make a "small system" distribution
[19:34:26] <renesis> ive had less probs with ubuntu than SuSE
[19:34:29] <SWPadnos> since embedded RT is my field
[19:34:33] <renesis> which is the only other biggy distro ill use
[19:34:59] <renesis> last time i tried doing a custom rolled EMC is was for a 300MHz box
[19:35:14] <renesis> that didnt go so well, and was tons of work to have it fail
[19:35:17] <SWPadnos> were you trying to get EMC to work on some ARM machine at some point?
[19:35:33] <renesis> i broke the GHz computer, i newegged a new system, for like $140 (open box mobo yay)
[19:35:40] <renesis> so its 1.9GHz now, i should try again
[19:35:49] <renesis> no
[19:35:58] <SWPadnos> hmmm. ok - I was thinking of someone else
[19:36:05] <renesis> just an old amd K6 i used for turbocnc
[19:36:15] <renesis> im doing SAM7 ARM stuff right now
[19:36:27] <SWPadnos> SAM7 or SAM7X?
[19:36:31] <renesis> but not really planning on doing gcode interpreters with it
[19:36:35] <renesis> SAM&S
[19:36:35] <gefink> I tried to install EMC+hardy on a old Duron 700. Its to slow. what cpu suggest you? 2GHZ Atlon works fine
[19:36:36] <renesis> er
[19:36:37] <renesis> SAM7S
[19:36:44] <SWPadnos> ok, interesting
[19:36:49] <renesis> gefink: i have a 1.9GHz sempron
[19:36:56] <renesis> ubuntu didnt detect any of the hardware really
[19:37:01] <renesis> but it can push the parport fine
[19:37:06] <renesis> and the SD card reader works
[19:37:29] <renesis> im going to try the new EMC on ubuntu8 when im done with the current projects
[19:37:49] <renesis> current emc/ubuntu just too old for my setup, but its doing RT fine
[19:38:00] <renesis> 45W proc, too, for $30
[19:38:26] <renesis> newegg has a ton of open box shit lately
[19:38:28] <gefink> ubuntu 6 worked with Duron700 slow and safe
[19:38:43] <renesis> getting alot of returns as they getting popular, i guess
[19:39:00] <SWPadnos> if 6.06 works on the Duron machine, and it's fast enough, I'd just use 6.06 there
[19:39:06] <renesis> but ive never had anything missing from anything open box, my scanner had a beat up box, the mobos were fine exzcept no shrinkwrap
[19:39:32] <renesis> heh, i wiped from dried water flux from the back of one mobo with alc, but i doubt that would be any kind of problem to cause a return
[19:39:51] <renesis> (tho water based flux can be conductive a bit after drying, heh, supposed to be for pin dipping i guess)
[19:41:11] <gefink> SWPadnos: that do i. but wondering about ~30 usec latency and lost soundinterrupts
[19:41:22] <SWPadnos> ok, that's a problem then :)
[19:41:48] <renesis> yeah what kinda of system are you driving with the duron?
[19:41:52] <SWPadnos> just about any modern PC should be fast enough
[19:42:00] <renesis> i wasnt microstepping under i got a GHz athlon XP
[19:42:02] <SWPadnos> the problems will likely be with onboard video
[19:42:13] <renesis> get teh nvidia gf
[19:42:14] <SWPadnos> so plan to add in a cheapo video card
[19:42:16] <alex_joni> hallo gefink
[19:42:25] <renesis> gf + lunix + nv or binary drivers = lub
[19:42:42] <gefink> hallo alex_joni
[19:42:44] <renesis> i think rt doesnt like the binary drivers or something, tho
[19:43:00] <renesis> i never bothered trying them
[19:43:14] <renesis> (i hear people bitch, tho)
[19:43:21] <alex_joni> gefink: wie geht's?
[19:44:00] <gefink> alex_joni: prima. meine ubuntu8 versuche auf meinem duron sind gescheitert
[19:44:00] <renesis> omg
[19:44:15] <renesis> i did fuckup my flip note coordinate =(
[19:44:28] <alex_joni> gefink: we should probably take it private..
[19:44:28] <gefink> +alex_joni ich verlier sogar soundinterrups
[19:44:32] <renesis> i put the pad diamater instead of the X value =\ =\ =\
[19:45:00] <alex_joni> gefink: ich hab dir ne private nachricht geschickt..
[19:45:25] <gefink> alex_joni: gute frage wie das geht.
[19:45:43] <alex_joni> gefink: schau nach andere Tabs..
[19:46:26] <gefink> alex_joni: ich glaub ich muss mich von meinem komandozeilen irc verabschieden
[19:46:52] <alex_joni> was fuer ein client?
[19:47:26] <gefink> er heisst nur irc
[19:47:33] <gefink> sonst keine info
[19:47:57] <alex_joni> gefink: /join #emc-de
[20:06:51] <assargadon> I rebooted in "normal" linux :)
[20:06:58] <assargadon> to read some docs...
[20:09:13] <assargadon> They should be somewhere at EMC CD, isn't it?
[20:09:55] <alex_joni> assargadon: you mean the regular kernel?
[20:10:05] <alex_joni> the docs should still be available from the menu
[20:10:32] <assargadon> alex_joni, yes
[20:10:39] <alex_joni> if you have a different PC< then getting them from the LiveCD is tricky.. because they are in the squashfs (and it's a pita to mount it..)
[20:10:42] <assargadon> regular kernel and 7.04
[20:10:55] <SWPadnos> ie, not the liveCD
[20:10:56] <alex_joni> assargadon: but anyways, you can find the docs online at http://www.linuxcnc.org/dovciew/
[20:11:16] <assargadon> Heh, really :)
[20:11:29] <assargadon> It some kind of shadow over my mind :)
[20:12:46] <assargadon> heh, all 3 OSes works normally
[20:12:50] <assargadon> and it's funny :)
[20:13:36] <alex_joni> assargadon: good to hear
[20:14:54] <assargadon> heh
[20:15:05] <assargadon> even more manuals in the web :)
[20:15:11] <alex_joni> yes
[20:15:27] <assargadon> 5 instead of 2 ;)
[20:15:47] <assargadon> It some kind of RTFM kingdom :)
[20:16:15] <alex_joni> assargadon: look at the html/
[20:16:24] <alex_joni> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview//2.2/html/
[20:16:30] <alex_joni> you have all you want there :D
[20:17:13] <assargadon> but PDFs looks more funny and can be read in offline...and they consist from 1 file
[20:17:51] <alex_joni> assargadon: suit yourself :)
[20:18:06] <assargadon> I'll use both :)
[20:18:19] <assargadon> I can't find chapter
[20:18:42] <assargadon> "How quckly write driver for your machine and force all this staff works in 5 easy steps"
[20:19:11] <assargadon> Can't you give me direct link?
[20:19:12] <alex_joni> hmm.. you probably want the programming_manual for that.. but that's really lacking (low on content)
[20:19:35] <assargadon> :)
[20:31:38] <skunkworks_> Guest966: hello
[20:31:42] <skunkworks_> ok
[20:31:46] <skunkworks_> Guest512: hello
[20:32:12] <alex_joni> hallo
[20:32:28] <alex_joni> Guest954: hallo
[20:32:57] <skunkworks_> heh
[20:33:05] <alex_joni> skunkworks_: he's trying
[20:33:16] <skunkworks_> seems like it.. persistant :)
[20:33:22] <alex_joni> I have a hunch that it's a german guy I'm trying to drag in here
[20:35:10] <alex_joni> anyways.. he had a pretty odd error with 8.04, so it would be great if he could make it in here
[20:43:21] <anonimasu> Hello
[20:43:33] <alex_joni> 'lo
[20:44:50] <anonimasu> what's up?
[20:45:01] <alex_joni> work again tomorrow..
[20:45:05] <anonimasu> :/
[20:45:07] <alex_joni> today's been a nice change (day off) :)
[20:45:12] <anonimasu> I'm free tomorrow but I'm going to work anyway
[20:45:30] <anonimasu> but I got some machining to do so it's nice :)
[20:51:50] <assargadon> anonimasu, hi
[20:52:31] <anonimasu> hello assargadon
[21:02:31] <BigJohnT> anyone know the syntax for calling a file with a subroutine with onnn call?
[21:03:06] <SWPadnos> there is no special syntax
[21:03:10] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: didn't o100 call work?
[21:03:14] <BigJohnT> no
[21:03:18] <alex_joni> any errors?
[21:03:22] <BigJohnT> none
[21:03:32] <BigJohnT> just didn't execute the subroutine
[21:03:37] <SWPadnos> if the appropriate onnn subroutine isn't in the current file, then the nc_files_dir will be searched for a file names onnn.ngc (I believe)
[21:03:43] <SWPadnos> named
[21:03:49] <SWPadnos> that's lower case o, not uppercase
[21:04:00] <alex_joni> not nc_files.. I think the PROGRAM_PREFIX folder
[21:04:02] <BigJohnT> that is what I did
[21:04:11] <BigJohnT> oh ok
[21:04:22] <SWPadnos> yes, PROGRAM_PREFIX - that's why I menmonic-ized it to nd_files_dir ;)
[21:04:24] <jepler> the o- call should also be in a .ngc file; at least at one point it did not work to execute o- call in mdi
[21:04:27] <SWPadnos> nc ..
[21:05:08] <BigJohnT> so similar to M100...
[21:05:15] <SWPadnos> except lower case :)
[21:05:22] <BigJohnT> be back in a sec ok
[21:05:31] <BigJohnT> or a minute I'm slow today
[21:08:59] <SWPadnos> ok, that should only work in TRUNK
[21:09:18] <alex_joni> o-call in mdi is in TRUNK
[21:09:25] <alex_joni> but I think BigJohnT is on pre-2.3 cvs
[21:09:44] <BigJohnT> and I have 2.2.5
[21:09:56] <SWPadnos> the o-call in MDI was after MDI o- calls I think
[21:10:07] <SWPadnos> and you need the LAZY_CLOSE option somewhere in the ini file
[21:10:13] <SWPadnos> (for MDI O-calls)
[21:10:38] <BigJohnT> I want to do it from a .ngc file not from MDI
[21:11:06] <SWPadnos> none of the aforementioned changes are in 2.2.5 ;)
[21:11:23] <SWPadnos> you'll need TRUNK, from what I can tell from the CVS logs
[21:11:51] <alex_joni> hallo hekob
[21:12:36] <BigJohnT> you mean pre-2.3 CVS TRUNK?
[21:12:48] <SWPadnos> sure
[21:12:56] <BigJohnT> yep that's what I have...
[21:13:06] <BigJohnT> be back in a minute
[21:13:08] <SWPadnos> oh, well that's not 2.2.5 ;)
[21:13:17] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: he has both
[21:13:20] <BigJohnT> I have both installed on this machine
[21:13:22] <alex_joni> mangled
[21:13:25] <alex_joni> but both
[21:13:27] <alex_joni> :-)
[21:13:30] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:13:37] <BigJohnT> is that a problem?
[21:13:42] <alex_joni> it-s pre-4.8.5 CVS TRUNK
[21:14:11] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: no, we're just fooling around.. don't mind us
[21:14:22] <BigJohnT> I thought so...
[21:14:37] <alex_joni> yeah, it's hard to tell when we're serious
[21:14:40] <alex_joni> it happens so seldom
[21:14:40] <BigJohnT> your just making fun of me cause I didn't call you sir...
[21:14:55] <alex_joni> of course I do
[21:15:00] <BigJohnT> I'll test it now
[21:16:51] <gefink> alex_joni: Now i have a new irc client (firefox plugin)
[21:17:08] <alex_joni> gefink: klingt gut :)
[21:17:32] <alex_joni> chatzilla?
[21:19:06] <BigJohnT> yep firefox plug in
[21:19:26] <gefink> alex_joni: Ja
[21:19:31] <BigJohnT> ok when I try and run it I get AXIS error
[21:20:02] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: our mindreading skills are a bit rusty
[21:20:06] <BigJohnT> EOF in file:home... seeking o-word: o1361208336 from line 1
[21:20:14] <BigJohnT> I was typing it...
[21:20:23] <alex_joni> * alex_joni learns patience
[21:20:27] <skunkworks_> well then - you type too slow.. ;)
[21:20:28] <alex_joni> I'm at step 5
[21:20:39] <BigJohnT> I told you I was slow today
[21:20:51] <BigJohnT> too much 3-cad work
[21:21:09] <tomp2> the o value is a bit off at 1.4billion
[21:21:55] <BigJohnT> otest.ngc
[21:21:57] <BigJohnT> o250 call
[21:21:59] <BigJohnT> G0 X0
[21:22:01] <BigJohnT> M2
[21:22:36] <BigJohnT> o250.ngc
[21:22:36] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: works here
[21:22:37] <BigJohnT> o250 sub
[21:22:39] <BigJohnT> G0 X10
[21:22:40] <BigJohnT> y-10
[21:22:42] <BigJohnT> o250 endsub
[21:23:03] <alex_joni> I also have o250 call in the o250.ngc
[21:23:20] <BigJohnT> ok first or after
[21:23:24] <alex_joni> after
[21:23:28] <alex_joni> before M2
[21:23:39] <alex_joni> (o250.ngc still needs to be valid)
[21:23:47] <alex_joni> so I bet the M2 is the one missing for you
[21:24:44] <alex_joni> yup.. still works without the o250 call
[21:24:53] <BigJohnT> hmmm
[21:25:03] <alex_joni> but you need M2 at the end of the file
[21:25:12] <alex_joni> or any other closing Mx
[21:25:29] <BigJohnT> ok I added an M2 to o250.ngc
[21:26:25] <BigJohnT> hmmm not yet here...
[21:26:43] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: I have this
[21:26:46] <alex_joni> foo.ngc:
[21:26:49] <alex_joni> o123 call
[21:26:51] <alex_joni> g0x1
[21:26:53] <alex_joni> m2
[21:27:01] <alex_joni> o123.ngc:
[21:27:05] <alex_joni> o123 sub
[21:27:10] <alex_joni> g0x1y1
[21:27:15] <alex_joni> 0123 endsub
[21:27:16] <alex_joni> m2
[21:27:28] <alex_joni> both files are in ~/emc2/nc_files
[21:27:40] <BigJohnT> same as I have
[21:27:45] <alex_joni> and I opened stepper_inch (copied by the config picker to ~/emc2/configs/stepper)
[21:28:21] <BigJohnT> I'm in emc2-trunk and using axis sim....
[21:28:25] <alex_joni> check yourconfig.ini : PROGRAM_PREFIX
[21:28:32] <alex_joni> I bet PROGRAM_PREFIX might be off
[21:28:49] <BigJohnT> PROGRAM_PREFEX is ../../nc_files
[21:29:24] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: for me it's /home/juve/emc2/nc_files
[21:29:28] <alex_joni> but I tested on 2.2.5
[21:29:45] <BigJohnT> let me test it on 2.2.5
[21:30:10] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: so either it's broken in TRUNK, or it doesn't like relative paths
[21:30:39] <BigJohnT> I think the latter
[21:30:47] <BigJohnT> I'll change it and test
[21:31:55] <alex_joni> I get the same error on TRUNK
[21:32:00] <alex_joni> seems like bustage
[21:33:21] <alex_joni> aha.. in TRUNK it only works with named subs
[21:33:30] <alex_joni> alex.ngc:
[21:33:34] <alex_joni> o<alex> sub
[21:33:36] <alex_joni> ...
[21:33:40] <alex_joni> o<alex> endsub
[21:33:42] <alex_joni> M2
[21:33:46] <alex_joni> foo.ngc:
[21:33:51] <alex_joni> o<alex> call
[21:33:52] <alex_joni> M2
[21:33:58] <alex_joni> ^ that works on TRUNK
[21:36:02] <BigJohnT> and that works for me as well
[21:36:06] <BigJohnT> thanks again...
[21:36:28] <BigJohnT> should I try and update the manual in trunk?
[21:38:07] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: no, this is a bug
[21:38:21] <alex_joni> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1955715&group_id=6744&atid=106744
[21:38:33] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: but if it's missing from the manual, then please do
[21:39:04] <BigJohnT> yea, it's completly missing
[21:43:22] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is off to bed
[21:43:29] <alex_joni> good night all
[21:43:44] <renesis> http://darkertechnologies.com/image/SSPX1123.3g2
[21:43:47] <renesis> horrible res
[21:44:01] <renesis> .008 DRC on the taig is working omg
[21:44:30] <renesis> heheh, im average fab house technology spec, now
[21:44:41] <renesis> chinapcb says they can do .004 space/trace now, tho
[21:45:17] <alex_joni> hi ken
[21:45:48] <lerman> Just got your bug report. Try it with a file name of 123.ngc instead of o123.ngc.
[21:46:51] <lerman> I'd guess that will work. Notice that you needed "file.ngc" NOT ofile.ngc. If that works, I would just call this a spec change.
[21:47:21] <alex_joni> yep, that works
[21:47:22] <lerman> Sorry. Didn't mean to be so abrupt. "Hi Alex" :-)
[21:47:33] <alex_joni> but the error is a bit obtuse :)
[21:47:43] <lerman> What did the error say?
[21:48:16] <alex_joni> EOF in file:/home/juve/emc2/nc_files/foo.ngc: seeking o-word: o145160720 from line: 1
[21:48:30] <alex_joni> (not sure where the o145160720 comes from)
[21:49:06] <lerman> Whoops. I probably didn't change the code that does the error message. the o145... is probably the address of the string 123.
[21:49:43] <alex_joni> yeah, it changes..
[21:49:56] <alex_joni> lerman: ok, feel free to close my bugreport
[21:50:02] <lerman> I'll have to update my version of trunk and fix that.
[21:50:20] <alex_joni> if you remember to fix this other issue (the o145..) I'm happy :)
[21:50:27] <lerman> OK. But in that case, you should generate the obtuse message bug report... Otherwise I'll forget it.
[21:51:02] <alex_joni> or I can update this bug
[21:51:06] <alex_joni> and update the info..
[21:51:25] <lerman> I'd appreciate that.
[21:51:57] <lerman> I've got to run... My Kempo (martial art) class starts in a while.
[21:52:21] <alex_joni> ok, enjoy
[21:52:27] <alex_joni> I'll open another bug for this.. thanks
[21:52:35] <lerman> Thanks for your diligence.
[21:53:04] <BigJohnT> Ok, I've updated the user manual now what?
[21:53:19] <tomp2> lerman thank you ( this is realtime bug fixin :)
[21:53:39] <BigJohnT> fast as fast can be...
[21:55:01] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: was that on TRUNK?
[21:55:06] <BigJohnT> yes
[21:55:13] <alex_joni> cvs diff -u > manual-change.patch
[21:55:22] <alex_joni> (in the folder with your changes..)
[21:55:27] <BigJohnT> ok
[21:55:35] <alex_joni> then send me the patch somehow (either email, or pastebin.ca)
[21:56:08] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: you saw the spec change for TRUNK.. right? (123.ngc is the filename)
[21:56:09] <BigJohnT> ok
[21:57:09] <BigJohnT> yes
[21:57:18] <BigJohnT> got it
[21:57:33] <alex_joni> I'm still up a couple minutes.. so if it's ok, I'll just commit it
[21:58:17] <BigJohnT> does the cvs diff take long?
[21:58:24] <BigJohnT> now it's rolling
[21:58:24] <alex_joni> depends where you ran it
[21:58:29] <BigJohnT> done
[21:58:46] <alex_joni> less manual-change.patch | wc -l
[21:59:06] <BigJohnT> 79
[21:59:10] <alex_joni> ah, great
[21:59:48] <alex_joni> pastebin.ca then
[22:00:07] <BigJohnT> what do I pastebin?
[22:00:26] <alex_joni> gedit manual-change.patch
[22:00:33] <alex_joni> (the content of that file)
[22:02:15] <BigJohnT> http://pastebin.ca/1004390
[22:02:33] <BigJohnT> looks like it has a couple of diffs
[22:02:44] <BigJohnT> one for g61 and the one I added
[22:03:35] <alex_joni> yup
[22:03:39] <alex_joni> but both are ok
[22:03:43] <BigJohnT> cool
[22:05:21] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: join #emc-devel
[22:51:24] <assargadon> eh
[22:51:35] <assargadon> I reading and reading and reading
[22:51:48] <assargadon> and I still cannot imagine, what I should to do :)
[23:08:26] <K`zan> Well, what to do, the 6.06 version of EMC/Ubuntu doesn't deal with wireless. Run 100' of ethernet or go back to sneakernet.
[23:09:33] <assargadon> * assargadon trying to recognise...
[23:11:15] <K`zan> Wonder of the new/planned release with 8.08 will work with wireless...
[23:12:26] <BigJohnT> assargadon: where are you lost?
[23:12:54] <assargadon> I think I got the main idea of HAL, but I still not sure what should I do
[23:13:04] <BigJohnT> about?
[23:13:16] <assargadon> I have a hardware (3d-positioning system)
[23:13:30] <assargadon> with control box
[23:13:33] <BigJohnT> cool
[23:13:49] <assargadon> this control box connected to computer via LPT
[23:13:57] <assargadon> but
[23:14:42] <assargadon> it takes 2-3 inport and outport to send the command or to asquire the data from robot
[23:14:57] <assargadon> despite the fact this commands a quite easy
[23:15:14] <BigJohnT> is this for a tool changer?
[23:15:23] <assargadon> (put the motor forward/backward/stop)
[23:16:27] <assargadon> tool changer?
[23:16:33] <assargadon> one second
[23:16:50] <BigJohnT> uh, M3, 4 & 5 control the spindle
[23:17:46] <assargadon> I failed to understand what toolchanger is
[23:18:04] <assargadon> it's just robot with 3 perpendicular axes
[23:18:09] <BigJohnT> for automatic tool changing in the spindle
[23:18:10] <assargadon> powered by servos
[23:18:23] <BigJohnT> ok, not a mill
[23:19:57] <BigJohnT> a catesian robot?
[23:20:09] <assargadon> yes, sort of.
[23:20:16] <BigJohnT> just moves X, Y, and Z
[23:20:21] <assargadon> yup
[23:20:59] <assargadon> it have some kind of "hand", which can be activated or deativated
[23:21:05] <BigJohnT> I'm guessing here but there is some different kins for robots
[23:21:07] <assargadon> but it useless now :)
[23:21:35] <assargadon> "just moves X, Y, and Z" is correct
[23:21:58] <BigJohnT> but each one is rotating not linear?
[23:22:16] <assargadon> each one is linear
[23:22:31] <BigJohnT> should be the same as a mill then...
[23:22:43] <assargadon> yes, it same as mill - logically
[23:23:01] <assargadon> but most mills have e little different construction
[23:23:13] <BigJohnT> but same movements
[23:23:22] <assargadon> yes, and same control
[23:23:29] <assargadon> so I can:
[23:23:35] <BigJohnT> X +- Y+- Z+-
[23:23:50] <assargadon> it's servos, not steppers
[23:23:54] <renesis> hmm
[23:24:10] <assargadon> so X: forward/backward/stop
[23:24:15] <renesis> speeds/feeds suggestions for acrylic pockets?
[23:24:25] <assargadon> and same for others
[23:24:27] <renesis> 3/8" carbide, but the machine is only 80lb desktop
[23:24:28] <BigJohnT> yes
[23:25:00] <assargadon> and you can obtain the status of encoder
[23:25:04] <assargadon> for every axe
[23:25:13] <assargadon> as far as status of endstops
[23:25:29] <assargadon> both endstops and encoder is just 1 bit
[23:25:53] <BigJohnT> for home position and limit switches
[23:25:54] <assargadon> every encoder have 1 channel only
[23:26:09] <assargadon> so you should keeep direction in mind, not measure it
[23:26:24] <BigJohnT> that's beyond my skill level at the moment
[23:26:40] <assargadon> problem is finding starting point
[23:26:44] <BigJohnT> I'm kinda up to speed on steppers more than servos
[23:26:56] <BigJohnT> start with one of the example configs
[23:26:56] <assargadon> is it correct: I need to implement HAL module
[23:27:20] <assargadon> which represents my control box
[23:27:59] <assargadon> driver, really...
[23:28:02] <assargadon> or not...
[23:28:28] <BigJohnT> that part is beyond my skill levels at the moment
[23:28:48] <BigJohnT> perhaps some servo experts could step in now...
[23:28:53] <assargadon> so pity it beyonds my skillevel too :)
[23:29:04] <renesis> * renesis only know how to do open loop stepper insanity
[23:29:20] <BigJohnT> did you try some of the example configs
[23:29:55] <assargadon> BigJohnT, depend on what you calling "try"
[23:30:15] <assargadon> yes, I started some kind of simulation :)
[23:30:26] <renesis> calc says i can do 1600rpm/33ipm for .005" cuts at 54fpm diameter speed
[23:30:36] <renesis> DO WE DARE
[23:30:53] <renesis> haha my steppers are 30ipm max this config, im pretty sure
[23:31:06] <assargadon> and the cone on the screen writing the letters by the program
[23:31:29] <renesis> axis is nice
[23:31:51] <renesis> axis gui is why i wont use mach or turbo anymore
[23:32:37] <renesis> the feedback and persistent paths makes it easy to catch manual coding or setup positioning errors
[23:33:24] <dmes1> put the blocl in the freezer and cut it slow
[23:33:37] <renesis> i was gonna use baby oil
[23:33:46] <renesis> freezer tip sounds neat, ill try that
[23:33:57] <renesis> heh, i should do that now its 1" acrylic
[23:34:04] <renesis> take awhile to make a difference
[23:34:21] <dmes1> ive cut acrylic and neopene the same way.. speeds and feeds
[23:34:45] <renesis> i wish i had a million dollars so i could just buy delrin and fly thru it
[23:35:01] <dmes1> try to get it cut while its still cold.. so it'll chip nicely
[23:35:04] <renesis> they need to figure out clear delrin
[23:35:09] <renesis> yeah
[23:35:28] <renesis> but its mad pockets, itll prob be warmed up anyway by the time im at the bottom
[23:36:07] <renesis> ill just make a pool of baby oil and spoon out the shaved ice lookin chips
[23:36:13] <dmes1> works on delrin too...and many other ones.. minlon too
[23:36:25] <renesis> baby oil worked cutting out the stock with a jogsaw, and ive welded cuts behind the blade with that jigsaw
[23:36:40] <renesis> haha, really sucks when you spend 5min going thru a block and it just doesnt fall =(
[23:36:49] <renesis> yeah i bet on delrin its great
[23:36:57] <BigJohnT> well assargadon: did you pick the most suitable config and try and run your machine?
[23:36:57] <renesis> that stuff already cuts easy
[23:37:25] <dmes1> go near full depth and air vortex the chips out
[23:37:31] <renesis> dmes1: thanks for tip, def sounds smart
[23:37:37] <renesis> hmm
[23:37:39] <renesis> yeah?
[23:37:41] <assargadon> BigJohnT, no
[23:37:48] <renesis> well, ill go deep
[23:37:53] <renesis> my machine is pretty pussy
[23:38:10] <renesis> the 3/8 wont break, itll just skip the X/Y steppers
[23:38:19] <assargadon> BigJohnT, I cannot imagine how any config can know the protocol of talking to control box
[23:38:21] <dmes1> slow plunge rate the roll.. and BLOW
[23:38:28] <renesis> near full depth just asking to east it =(
[23:38:35] <assargadon> it's not just rewiring...
[23:38:52] <BigJohnT> do you know what the protocol is?
[23:39:12] <BigJohnT> is it PWM or something like that?
[23:39:12] <renesis> they make step/dir servo drivers, no?
[23:39:15] <assargadon> yes, and I even write something like driver
[23:39:27] <dmes1> yes ren
[23:39:39] <renesis> that would be neat i could just throw them on my config and try em out
[23:39:52] <assargadon> BigJohnT, I don't know what PWM is, but I doubt
[23:40:07] <dmes1> ren what have you got now?
[23:40:10] <BigJohnT> ok, I'm just guessing at this point
[23:40:10] <renesis> tho im kinda amzed the open loop setup is as trustworthy as its proven to be
[23:40:25] <renesis> dmes1: the big taig mill, with a xylotex 4ch
[23:40:37] <assargadon> It's very specific...not hard, but specific
[23:40:38] <renesis> for a couple years now, is pretty hardcore
[23:40:42] <BigJohnT> chatter getting too much to follow so I'm headed for the porch and a glass of wine
[23:40:50] <BigJohnT> good luck
[23:40:55] <renesis> but yeah, its only 80 lbs, so its not gonna rought out pockets at 1" deep well
[23:40:59] <Sweeper> pwm = pulse width modulation!
[23:41:07] <renesis> pwm = easy!
[23:41:13] <assargadon> BigJohnT, thanks
[23:41:26] <dmes1> the eastern block ran on stepper technology exclusively until the '90s
[23:41:28] <renesis> (heh, i code alot of microcontroller stuff, its like the first thing you figure out on a new chip)
[23:41:35] <renesis> hah cool
[23:41:45] <renesis> ive gotten some tools from that area
[23:42:00] <dmes1> take 2 1/2" passes and get over it
[23:42:03] <renesis> enco import stuff, itll be marked yugoslavia or something
[23:42:08] <renesis> yeah okay ill try
[23:42:14] <renesis> i have a stupid amount of 1"
[23:42:28] <renesis> my exgf just had it sitting in her back yard
[23:42:43] <renesis> leftover from a job her bro did i was like, fuck thats prob $600 in acrylic
[23:43:20] <renesis> i need to go .835 deep, so ill try .3" passes
[23:43:35] <dmes1> ive had 3x33x7" deep pockets to deal with you dont have a problem.. your just inexperienced and afraid
[23:43:35] <renesis> hehe, stackup chassis w00t
[23:43:51] <renesis> well, yeh and my machine is little
[23:44:07] <renesis> like, i have a cnc degree but im not a machinist, im an electronics tech
[23:44:16] <renesis> machine tools are scary!
[23:44:24] <dmes1> but your work fit its envelope if you work smart
[23:44:41] <dmes1> cnc degree??
[23:44:44] <renesis> yeah im alot better now
[23:44:55] <renesis> yeah, i have an AS cnc programming from a public college in los angeles
[23:44:58] <dmes1> whats that??
[23:45:14] <renesis> its neat, my instructors mostly did mil and aerospace in the 70s and 80s
[23:45:19] <renesis> associates degree, 2 years
[23:46:07] <renesis> its like mill and lathe mostly, 4 CNC programming courses, 3 manual machining courses, a hellish GD&T inspection course, bit of cad/cam
[23:46:13] <renesis> and some gen ed
[23:46:22] <dmes1> good lord you can hang that where mine is.... in the outhouse at camp...i have one from George Brown College
[23:46:26] <renesis> the computer fucked up and i took all 3 CNC courses in one semester
[23:46:28] <renesis> instead of three
[23:47:17] <renesis> i was learning to program machine code on an 8085 proc, tho, same semester
[23:47:30] <renesis> so gcode was kinda easy compared to that hell
[23:48:03] <dmes1> yes.. i feel your pain what yrs did you go to college
[23:48:14] <renesis> im done like now
[23:48:21] <renesis> im not a machinist, tho
[23:48:38] <renesis> the idea of working in a production shop scares the shit outta me
[23:48:52] <renesis> and then i met alot of machinists, and they all confirmed my fears
[23:48:59] <dmes1> oh ok i finished my mess in 1989....went to work
[23:49:04] <renesis> and theres the pick of the mideastern dude wrap around a lathe...
[23:49:19] <renesis> yeah i like doing fast electronic prototype stuff
[23:49:36] <renesis> so the CNC stuff kinda related to that more than mass production stuff
[23:50:14] <dmes1> then go into a prototype makers apprentiship.... i'm one of those
[23:50:14] <renesis> id do CNC tech for a prototype house, but besides that, its too dangerous too much going on, not for me
[23:50:36] <renesis> yeah toolroom machining and prototype stuff seems interesting
[23:50:49] <renesis> but im really alot better at electronics than machining
[23:51:22] <dmes1> then go for machine tool dealers as a techie...
[23:51:45] <dmes1> servo and plc is hard to find...
[23:52:11] <renesis> well, right now i dont want to go anyplace
[23:52:35] <renesis> because once you leave here, you never come back (los angeles rent inflation makes rest of the country look silly)
[23:52:40] <dmes1> if you have the NUT i'll hand your resume to the maintenance manager... were in Ajax ontario canada
[23:52:49] <renesis> and JBL and cerwin vega are local
[23:53:04] <renesis> so im going to try and scare a vench or design tech position at once of those places
[23:53:08] <renesis> *bench
[23:53:34] <renesis> *secure, omg hi, mr typo here
[23:53:36] <dmes1> go for broke....
[23:53:42] <renesis> yeah if that dont work
[23:53:43] <dmes1> i got it
[23:53:56] <renesis> then theres a job offer in maryland
[23:54:04] <renesis> but thats insane, because its mil contractor stuff
[23:54:18] <renesis> for research lab, like dream and a nightmare, way things are now
[23:54:26] <dmes1> insane.. i have 1 in northern RUSSIA...
[23:54:34] <renesis> but yeah if that dont work out, im just gonna try and get a CNC tech job
[23:54:40] <renesis> because theres lots of that locally
[23:54:48] <renesis> haha northern russia
[23:54:52] <renesis> sounds cold and barren
[23:54:54] <dmes1> been thinking 3 months... there is still snow there
[23:55:23] <renesis> im pretty much finishing school
[23:55:32] <renesis> i was full time, but they fucked me on aid on a technicality
[23:55:44] <dmes1> good coin... good company.... but its a 6 year contract...
[23:55:54] <renesis> so to them i wasnt even halftime, so instead of $100, or $500 or whatever for halftime, i got $0
[23:56:11] <renesis> so im pissed, im like fuck you guys, i already got 2 degrees from you haha, im going to get a job
[23:56:22] <renesis> learn more doing tech work for someone else, right now
[23:56:35] <renesis> i know the tech, i can work fast, im disorganized as fuck tho
[23:56:54] <dmes1> do you get it done??
[23:57:00] <renesis> me owning a business would prob be a fun two years and then omg one month just into the dirt
[23:57:08] <renesis> yeah
[23:57:13] <renesis> but i could do it better
[23:57:34] <renesis> like, my goals now are more to learn technique more than finish projects, so when they come out nice its kinda a bonux
[23:57:40] <dmes1> that all the BIG guy sees.... Find the big guy and impress him fast
[23:57:41] <renesis> *bonus
[23:57:46] <renesis> actually im wasting time right now
[23:57:57] <renesis> i have like 5 circuit boards to mill
[23:58:02] <renesis> then that acrylic thing
[23:58:11] <renesis> oh yeah fuck some aluminum heatsinks
[23:58:42] <renesis> then pick up my parts from ups (OMG THEY FAILED AGAIN)
[23:58:45] <dmes1> do the plastic in the am ... put them in the freezer oernite
[23:58:49] <renesis> yeah
[23:58:56] <renesis> i leave at like 6A
[23:59:00] <renesis> tho, bus for san jose
[23:59:10] <renesis> this is like some nightmare joke turned into 24 pcb project
[23:59:16] <renesis> all built into altoids mint tins
[23:59:18] <dmes1> so cut them at 4 am
[23:59:21] <renesis> yeh
[23:59:41] <renesis> earlier, hopefully
[23:59:50] <dmes1> they NEED to cool
[23:59:52] <renesis> but im planning these fine DRC circuit boards to fuckup