#emc | Logs for 2008-04-30

[02:01:55] <steves_logging> steves_logging is now known as steve_stallings
[03:04:07] <dave_1> hmmmm. pretty quiet
[03:26:16] <SkinnYPup> crickets... i'm making chips
[03:38:16] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[04:27:51] <elson> Hello, all!
[04:28:12] <elson> Anybody still up?
[04:41:47] <fenn> rawr
[05:29:56] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: ping?
[05:30:17] <SWPadnos> poing
[05:30:33] <SWPadnos> just about to head to bed. how are you doing?
[05:31:47] <ds2> you made it back east, SWPadnos!
[05:32:15] <SWPadnos> yes
[05:32:26] <SWPadnos> and back west, and back east again :)
[05:33:17] <ds2> that was a nice talk at ESC...figured out the relation between EMC and HAL
[05:33:34] <fenn> jet antiphase
[05:34:35] <fenn> SWPadnos: are the slides from the talk worth re-using?
[05:35:26] <SWPadnos> cool. glad you liked it
[05:35:40] <SWPadnos> fenn, I don't think so, at least not for CNC workshop or anything
[05:36:01] <SWPadnos> it was more of a history course than anything else, with a little technical stuff thrown in
[05:36:18] <SWPadnos> configuration / usage were left out more or less entirely
[05:36:43] <SWPadnos> (though I did run through stepconfig during the presentation, twice, to get the machine running)
[05:40:40] <Assargadon> Hi there
[05:40:55] <Assargadon> I loaded emc distro this night
[05:41:11] <Assargadon> so I'll try to install it at evening
[05:49:29] <SWPadnos> nighty night all
[05:52:13] <Assargadon> * Assargadon still unpleased with this style of emc installing, when you need exclusive os - or better exclusive computer - to run it
[05:58:35] <fenn> Assargadon: would you prefer being forced to buy a piece of custom hardware that runs the realtime code instead?
[05:59:40] <Assargadon> fenn, it's another question - very important too, but another
[05:59:42] <fenn> it would be easy enough to sell a 'networked cnc server' that could accept commands from any computer that can run python
[06:00:20] <fenn> but so far nobody has bothered
[06:01:14] <fenn> anyway the point is that, somewhere down the line there must be a computer that interacts directly with hardware
[06:01:44] <fenn> we give you the flexibility to do that with a general purpose PC
[06:05:08] <Assargadon> fenn, yes and it's cool :)
[06:07:01] <Assargadon> I talking about main installation procedure
[06:07:19] <Assargadon> which pretend to install new os on your computer :)
[06:08:56] <Assargadon> As far as I understand, exactly one OS supported "officially" now, isn't it?
[06:11:49] <fenn> yes, but... why would you use any other OS?
[06:11:59] <fenn> i'm not being dense
[06:13:42] <fenn> its like complaining that your printer only works with the software that comes from HP
[06:13:47] <Assargadon> fenn, becouse I installed 7.04, then upgraded to 7.10 long before I getting involved in CNC at all :)
[06:14:04] <Assargadon> and I using it and I have a lot well-configured things there
[06:14:44] <fenn> you're aware that soon we will be supporting 8.04 right?
[06:16:06] <Assargadon> yes, and it's just my fortune I was involved in EMC in last days before 8.04
[06:16:17] <Assargadon> So I satisfied with the current situation
[06:16:30] <fenn> anyway, it's not like writing a printer driver where you can just install one tiny module and it communicates with a piece of hardware
[06:16:45] <Assargadon> but I feel whole approach is somewhat bad...despite the fact I understend how it appears
[06:16:49] <fenn> the computer _is_ the printer
[06:17:20] <fenn> the printer just happens to run linux as the user interface
[06:18:16] <Assargadon> fenn, as far as I understand, main problem is realtime core, which no one like to make for different linuxes or even different versions of Ubuntu except long-term supported ones
[06:18:21] <fenn> there's not really any advantage to having a hundred different funtionally identical interfaces
[06:19:37] <fenn> it's more than just the effort of making the realtime kernel, we would have to dig through many obscure distribution-specific bugs and not be able to test them, etc, with newbies throwing darts blindfolded at a wall of choices
[06:20:21] <fenn> some guy came in here with a slackware bug, but couldnt really tell us what was wrong 'because he was new at this linux thing'
[06:20:42] <Assargadon> :)
[06:21:33] <Assargadon> in this case, some "hardware realtime controller" is maybe good option...i don't know :)
[06:21:47] <Assargadon> I new at this CNC-ruling thing :)
[06:21:56] <fenn> i do think ubuntu is piggy and there should be a slimmed down option for older hardware, but i havent done it yet
[06:23:05] <fenn> also, emc2-sim package should be supported on different distros
[06:25:29] <fenn> but we're all just amateurs and nobody wants to spend money for really good libre software when they can not spend money at all and have just "ok" libre software
[06:27:13] <fenn> it's amazing that businesses will spend $60k on a mill without blinking, but pay for software that everyone will benefit from? ridiculous
[06:29:33] <fenn> i'd love to hire julian todd but not sure if he's for sale :)
[06:30:11] <fenn> (and i dont have any money or business to use that software with either)
[06:42:52] <alex_joni> Assargadon: you can use emc2 on a variety of distros
[06:43:24] <alex_joni> but of course you first need to meet the requirements (which are: an patched kernel with either RTAI or RTLinux working)
[06:44:10] <alex_joni> Assargadon: a couple years ago there was no other way for users to install.. they got the emc sources (which you still can get for the latest version), and had to take care themselves of the problems
[06:44:37] <alex_joni> Assargadon: that is not a simple task, so we decided we want to help them by providing that work already done by us
[06:45:17] <Assargadon> alex_joni, it's not a criticizm in style "hey idiots, why everything is so ugly"
[06:45:33] <alex_joni> Assargadon: there are a lot of poeple out there that understood this, and decided to do it on their own
[06:45:37] <Assargadon> I just see there is a lot reserves for "lowering a barrier"
[06:45:46] <alex_joni> we have Fedora users, Slack, Debian, ...
[06:45:54] <alex_joni> I think I saw a guy using Mandriva once
[06:46:08] <alex_joni> and of course various versions of Ubuntu
[06:46:14] <Assargadon> and such a lowering is primary goal for every opensource project, I far as I understand
[06:47:00] <Assargadon> As for me, I'll install EMC this prolonged weekand
[06:47:13] <Assargadon> (we have 3 free days due to 1 may celebrations)
[06:47:15] <alex_joni> Assargadon: did you look around for guides on getting emc2 to run on 7.10?
[06:47:30] <Assargadon> but it happens approx. 3 weeks later that it supposed to be
[06:47:36] <alex_joni> (a short googling got me this: http://www.britishideas.com/2007/11/07/how-to-install-emc2-on-unbuntu-710-gutsy-from-scratch/)
[06:52:50] <Assargadon> alex_joni, yes, I saw something about it. Not this exactly document, but some other
[06:54:30] <alex_joni> Assargadon: there is a lot of work involved into getting a working system
[06:54:54] <alex_joni> I've been working for about 3 weeks on hardy already, and it's getting close
[06:56:42] <fenn> what has been involved, btw? i havent been following -devel much
[06:58:11] <alex_joni> fenn: I commited most of the things to CVS
[06:58:29] <alex_joni> well.. now that I think of it, only the LiveCD part
[06:58:45] <alex_joni> fenn: grabbing ubuntu kernel sources, adding a custom flavour
[06:58:49] <alex_joni> add the IPIPE patch
[06:59:10] <alex_joni> build packages (for linux-image linux-ubuntu-modules linux-backport-modules linux-restricted-modules)
[06:59:34] <alex_joni> build meta packages (linux-ubuntu-modules-hardy-rtai : so that it always depends on the latest deb)
[06:59:39] <alex_joni> build rtai packages
[06:59:51] <fenn> these are in emc2/debian/ ?
[06:59:52] <alex_joni> (the above have been done for i386 and amd64)
[06:59:59] <alex_joni> fenn: no, in hardy/
[07:00:16] <alex_joni> then setting up the repo
[07:00:22] <alex_joni> set up an archive signing key
[07:00:29] <alex_joni> then start work on the livecd
[07:01:03] <alex_joni> then emc2 packages (but that was the really easy part)
[07:01:29] <fenn> aha here it is http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/infrastructure/repositories/hardy/
[07:01:50] <alex_joni> yup
[07:01:58] <Assargadon> alex_joni, is it will be possible to install hardy package into existing Hardy installation?
[07:02:03] <fenn> i wonder why google didnt find that
[07:02:05] <alex_joni> Assargadon: yes
[07:02:14] <alex_joni> fenn: I think it's set not to index cvsview
[07:02:38] <alex_joni> nope.. maybe it's too new
[07:06:24] <alex_joni> whee.. this looks like fun: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=562561&in_page_id=1770
[08:29:13] <K`zan> Progress on the X axis base tonight - done, now the table tomorrow.
[08:29:28] <K`zan> Beat, but happily so :).
[08:29:33] <K`zan> Night all.
[08:29:48] <alex_joni> K`zan: great
[10:07:46] <alex_joni> does sourceforge work for you?
[10:09:03] <archivist> nope and seen other reports of dead
[10:11:13] <alex_joni> crap, I just sent a nice announcement to the devel list
[10:11:17] <alex_joni> and it never made it
[10:19:48] <archivist> alex_joni, 2 of 3 dead nameservers for sourceforge
[10:21:21] <archivist> and the ip from the good nameserver seems dead
[10:35:16] <Assargadon> the main problem is
[10:35:39] <Assargadon> where can I find emty writable CD :)
[10:35:45] <Assargadon> *empty
[10:36:10] <Assargadon> as far as I remeber, closest shop sell only DVDs for a long time :)
[10:37:32] <fenn> doesnt ubuntu have netboot?
[10:37:35] <fenn> anyway, there are install DVD images
[10:37:45] <fenn> you dont have to use the emc live-cd to install emc
[10:38:53] <Assargadon> fenn, I spand a two days to donload 6.06 CD iso :)
[10:39:03] <Assargadon> spend
[10:39:24] <Assargadon> how can I install emc without livecd?
[10:39:35] <fenn> in this case, i see your frustration about having to use ubuntu
[10:39:36] <Assargadon> Install appropriate version of ubuntu?
[10:39:48] <fenn> yes, install 6.06 and then run the script on linuxcnc.org
[10:39:51] <Assargadon> fenn, now you get the idea :)
[10:40:08] <Assargadon> fenn, but I need donload 6.06 in this case :)
[10:40:20] <Assargadon> and burn it onto CD as well :)
[10:40:58] <Assargadon> maybe the ubuntu should load much faster :)
[10:41:19] <fenn> no
[10:41:19] <fenn> you already have 6.06 right?
[10:41:27] <fenn> http://www.linuxcnc.org/content/view/21/4/lang,en/ "if you prefer to start with the distributed ubuntu CD ..."
[10:41:33] <Assargadon> fenn, no
[10:41:40] <Assargadon> I have a 7.10
[10:41:45] <Assargadon> (installed)
[10:41:59] <Assargadon> and 6.06 with emc - downloaded
[10:42:07] <fenn> hmmm
[10:42:20] <fenn> setting up your own repository based on a liveCD is not going to be simple
[10:42:38] <Assargadon> fenn, why do I need it?
[10:42:46] <archivist> must be a local computer shop to get a blank cd
[10:42:57] <Assargadon> yup
[10:43:04] <Assargadon> I find it I hope :)
[10:43:16] <Assargadon> but it's not as easy as year ago, for example
[10:43:28] <Assargadon> "Shift Happens" don't it?
[10:43:44] <fenn> just get the blank cd
[10:43:54] <archivist> yes, the local shop no longer does pci parport cards
[10:44:03] <Assargadon> parport?
[10:44:10] <fenn> O_o
[10:44:11] <Assargadon> what's this?
[10:44:17] <archivist> parallel port
[10:44:30] <Assargadon> I'm not sue about this
[10:44:43] <Assargadon> I bought one approx. 1/2 year before
[10:44:55] <Assargadon> but it was costly and not easy :)
[10:45:21] <fenn> is there nothing like ebay in russia?
[10:45:38] <Assargadon> I'll not surprise if blanc CD will cost me 2x if compared to blank DVD :)
[10:45:57] <Assargadon> fenn, couple i
[10:46:02] <Assargadon> couple of
[10:46:12] <Assargadon> but all the...hmmm...small, bad and ugly
[10:46:51] <Assargadon> it was a joke about it's main problem - I don't think it will stop me :)
[10:47:37] <Assargadon> if unknown robot protocol don't :)
[10:48:12] <Assargadon> and if using of LPT in windows with GCC don't :)
[10:48:18] <fenn> ah, good luck with that
[10:48:45] <Assargadon> it was first time when I used DLLs in GCC, by the way :)
[10:49:27] <alex_joni> Assargadon: you can burn a CD iso onto a DVD
[10:49:39] <Assargadon> but as the reward, I now have almost ready driver code, which I hope fast and easy adopt for EMC
[10:49:53] <Assargadon> alex_joni, are you sure?
[10:49:56] <alex_joni> very
[10:50:07] <Assargadon> I trying it, and in some cases it works, in other don't
[10:50:11] <alex_joni> (it doesn't work the other way around :)
[10:50:23] <alex_joni> hmm.. seems I've been lucky so far..
[10:50:24] <Assargadon> and this DVDs never was bootable
[10:50:39] <Assargadon> even if original CDs was
[10:50:45] <alex_joni> hmm.. odd
[10:51:00] <alex_joni> over here you can get blank CDs at any store/corner
[10:51:05] <alex_joni> even in the supermarket
[10:51:12] <alex_joni> (together with blank DVDs)
[10:51:19] <Assargadon> alex_joni, I'll do my best
[10:51:25] <Assargadon> I only know 2 things
[10:51:40] <alex_joni> Assargadon: you *could* update only using online
[10:51:40] <Assargadon> 1) my nearest computer shop don't sell blanc CDs
[10:51:51] <alex_joni> first dist-upgrade to hardy 8.04
[10:51:57] <alex_joni> then install emc2 on hardy 8.04
[10:52:06] <Assargadon> 2) I don't see blank CDs for a long time in any computer shop
[10:52:17] <alex_joni> but I didn't try such a task (although I think I saw reports that it works ok)
[10:52:20] <fenn> alex_joni: i tried burning the live cd on a DVD, and it wouldn't boot
[10:52:30] <Assargadon> But I think it's impossible there are no blank CD in all city :)
[10:52:36] <alex_joni> fenn: hmm.. ok, then.. I'll keep that in mind
[10:52:45] <Assargadon> at least, music pirates need them :)
[10:52:54] <archivist> hehe
[10:53:07] <alex_joni> they use DVDs around here :)
[10:53:08] <fenn> where's my holographic opti-cube!
[10:53:13] <Assargadon> alex_joni, yes, I thinking about it :)
[10:53:14] <alex_joni> fenn: TESA
[10:53:27] <alex_joni> Assargadon: but I'm not sure how easy it is to go back if soemthing fails
[10:53:34] <Assargadon> alex_joni, yes, here they prefer DVDs, too
[10:53:43] <Assargadon> but some of them use records
[10:53:49] <Assargadon> to play music in cars
[10:54:12] <Assargadon> and lot of cars have an old-fashin CD players...non MP3, just music CD
[10:54:37] <Assargadon> *fashion
[10:55:01] <alex_joni> at least you don't have any 8 track
[10:55:24] <alex_joni> and betamax :P
[10:55:31] <fenn> alex_joni: umm, holographic label printing?
[10:55:31] <Assargadon> alex_joni, and yes, I was thinking about maybe-hard-rollback too :)
[10:55:56] <alex_joni> fenn: didn't you see writing on TESA films?
[10:56:02] <alex_joni> I saw some reports a couple years ago
[10:56:03] <fenn> you'd think after the experience with tape/cd incompatibility in cars, they would add a simple line-in jack
[10:56:17] <alex_joni> a simple laser in the middle of the tesa, and multilayer focusing
[10:56:27] <alex_joni> they manages something like 50-60GB on one regular small roll
[10:56:36] <alex_joni> with a cost of .2$ per blank
[10:56:51] <fenn> how long is the roll?
[10:56:52] <alex_joni> but I guess CD/DVD/BlueRay manufacturers didn't like that
[10:57:03] <alex_joni> fenn: a couple hundred feet
[10:57:10] <alex_joni> Assargadon: I sent you a pm
[10:57:30] <fenn> oh well, welcome to Earth
[10:58:16] <Assargadon> alex_joni, what's "pm" is?
[10:58:21] <Assargadon> packet manager?
[10:58:27] <alex_joni> private message
[10:58:34] <alex_joni> fenn: it was called Tesa-ROM
[10:58:36] <alex_joni> or T-ROM
[10:59:08] <fenn> i've only heard of the holographic versatile card/disc
[11:01:39] <Assargadon> alex_joni, thanks for instructions, but I already saw it don't know, where :) Not absolutely same, but very similar
[11:01:45] <alex_joni> ok
[11:02:34] <alex_joni> fenn: http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6964837-description.html
[11:05:19] <Assargadon> I think I should put my system to upgrade
[11:05:26] <Assargadon> and while it workis
[11:05:30] <fenn> alex_joni: beats the heck out of a barcode
[11:05:41] <Assargadon> I should travel for blank CD store :)
[11:05:51] <alex_joni> fenn: http://www.ldorado-info.goracer.de/Bilder/tesa.jpg
[11:07:23] <alex_joni> fenn: seems they used the idea to do something else with it
[11:07:28] <alex_joni> http://www.tesa-scribos.de/index-flash.htm
[11:11:15] <The_Ball> Hey guys. Anybody have any views on if the new realtime group scheduling and other new 2.6.25 realtime features will influence emc?
[11:11:32] <fenn> alex_joni: i'd like to use emc to make mechanical holograms some day
[11:11:32] <fenn> * fenn suffocates under the crushing bulk of the lag monster
[11:13:05] <alex_joni> The_Ball: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.emc.devel/946
[11:14:03] <The_Ball> cheers
[11:15:30] <alex_joni> The_Ball: would that answer your question?
[11:16:05] <The_Ball> I was after opinions, so kind of :)
[11:17:22] <Assargadon> fenn, what "mechanical holograms" is?
[11:18:35] <alex_joni> Assargadon: something spinning fast
[11:18:45] <Assargadon> ah
[11:18:54] <Assargadon> LED holograms :)
[11:19:09] <Assargadon> I got the idea, A saw it one day in bank office
[11:19:21] <Assargadon> *A->I
[11:20:08] <Assargadon> but how can be used EMC for tis?
[11:20:11] <Assargadon> *this
[11:36:44] <fenn> no, not at all
[11:36:44] <fenn> mechanical hologram: http://amasci.com/amateur/hand1.html
[12:10:24] <Assargadon> fenn, ah
[12:10:45] <Assargadon> making difraction grid by needle :)
[12:57:46] <archivist> alex_joni, your list message just got through!!!!!
[13:00:00] <alex_joni> yah.. yay for speed
[13:01:26] <archivist> they seem back up, must have put a coin in the meter
[13:23:47] <garfield3> hallo
[13:23:59] <skunkworks_> Hello
[13:25:49] <garfield3> i found a minor bug in stepconfwizard
[13:31:17] <skunkworks_> garfield3: what bug?
[14:05:45] <bigengineer> Hello! looks nice here, anyone out there for an impatient emc user?
[14:06:03] <Assargadon> I'm here
[14:06:16] <Assargadon> Do YOU impatient emc user?
[14:06:56] <bigengineer> euh? I don't get it.
[14:07:05] <bigengineer> Anyway, on with the problem
[14:07:22] <bigengineer> For no reason I get a joint 1 following error
[14:07:29] <ALS> Ask away
[14:07:51] <bigengineer> I don't see anything special in the nc code, it might a bit much code
[14:08:03] <bigengineer> But it stops around line 340
[14:08:10] <bigengineer> nowhere near the end
[14:08:43] <bigengineer> strange thing is, after restarting the machine stops at the same spot again
[14:08:53] <ALS> does the program take you outside your machine limits?
[14:09:10] <bigengineer> no, not outside the limits
[14:09:29] <skunkworks_> can you pastebin.ca the program?
[14:10:08] <bigengineer> what is pastebin.ca? Oh, I see it at the bottom
[14:10:26] <bigengineer> It is a long program, that is not a problem?
[14:10:40] <skunkworks_> post to say - line 400..
[14:10:56] <ALS> http://pastebin.ca/
[14:11:21] <cradek_> jepler has already answered your post on the list
[14:11:42] <skunkworks_> ah
[14:11:56] <skunkworks_> this is the folloing error issue?
[14:11:57] <cradek_> beware that it is very bad style to be impatient when people are helping you for free.
[14:12:02] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[14:12:06] <ALS> sourceforge maybe down
[14:12:35] <archivist> sourcforge has been down for a while today
[14:12:45] <cradek> it's fine now, I got the response message in my email
[14:13:09] <ALS> i cant get on now
[14:13:10] <bigengineer> Well, when I came here the answer wasn't there yet.
[14:13:21] <bigengineer> It is only up there for 5 minutes.
[14:13:47] <bigengineer> But I don't want to be unpolite of course
[14:13:50] <jepler> bigengineer: http://pastebin.ca/1002902
[14:15:13] <bigengineer> oke, read Jeff's answer, something suggestion I have to investigate.
[14:15:28] <bigengineer> Jepler, did I do it right with the pastebin?
[14:15:52] <jepler> bigengineer: I was just using pastebin to show you the e-mail I sent in case you still didn't receive it
[14:17:54] <jepler> the gcode in your pastebin (I'm guessing that it was http://pastebin.ca/1002903) looks just fine as far as gcode goes
[14:18:30] <anonimasu> bigengineer: that's not alot of gcode really
[14:18:48] <anonimasu> bigengineer: When you do 3d contouring you have files that are several Mb in size
[14:19:29] <bigengineer> I see, okay, I did the configuration with stepconf don't know if if maxvel en maxaccel are right
[14:19:56] <rayh> I can get the following error message here with steppers if I set max vel to high for the speed of the computer I'm using. Is that a rapid line it's tripping on?
[14:20:03] <bigengineer> anonimasu: this was only 10% of some figures, I know it can be bigger
[14:21:15] <anonimasu> ok :)
[14:21:16] <bigengineer> If have tried the speed with the "test axis" button, one axis went till 50 mm/s the other somwhere in the 30's, I put them to 20 to enough play
[14:22:10] <jepler> can you put your .stepconf file on pastebin?
[14:22:12] <bigengineer> acceleration is 30 mm/s^2, it was higher but choos it to bee on the safe side
[14:23:10] <rayh> What is the proc speed?
[14:23:27] <rayh> and the input scale?
[14:24:44] <bigengineer> it is P3 500 MHz, max jitter was 13890 ns
[14:24:49] <bigengineer> input scale?
[14:25:21] <rayh> Input scale is an ini term for the number of pulses required to move an mm
[14:25:44] <jepler> in stepconf it is a value shown at the bottom of the "Axis Configuration" page
[14:26:05] <bigengineer> man oh man, so much to learn, I have read so much documentation, I feel like it doesn't fit in my brain anymore
[14:26:15] <ALS> how long and hard did you run the latancy test?
[14:26:25] <rayh> The 500 MHz is a bit slow for fast moves.
[14:27:05] <bigengineer> about 20 minutes, did some browsing in a few tabs, (un)tarring with bzip
[14:28:33] <ALS> glxgears?
[14:29:26] <bigengineer> it is 550 MHz actually, but it brings to different subject, is dual P3 750 MHz any good? Or should I stay away from dual CPU setups?
[14:30:01] <bigengineer> No did not run glxgears, doesn't make any sense on an X client
[14:30:06] <bigengineer> (I think)
[14:30:20] <cradek> IMO you should wait to switch computers until you get this one configured correctly. it is quite likely fine.
[14:30:37] <rayh> In my "inch" thinking you are trying for about .8 ips or abpit 50 ipm.
[14:30:56] <bigengineer> the input scale is "AXIS scale" I think? It says 800.0
[14:31:33] <cradek> that's a small scale, so it should be very easy to get the speeds you want.
[14:31:44] <rayh> Not with mm units
[14:31:52] <jepler> did you put the .stepconf file on pastebin yet? If so, what's the URL for it?
[14:31:56] <rayh> that would be 20k or so in inch
[14:32:16] <rayh> I'd say that is fast for a 500
[14:32:20] <cradek> oh sorry, 800/mm, I didn't see that
[14:32:35] <bigengineer> oh sorry, I am not familiar with this irc stuff, http://pastebin.ca/1002911
[14:32:54] <rayh> np just trying to think aloud about some of the setups I've done here.
[14:33:08] <bigengineer> can you explain the 800 number? where does it come from?
[14:33:24] <cradek> steps required to move one mm
[14:34:28] <bigengineer> I see. I am on 1/8th step with a pitch of 2 mm, would switching to 1/4 step help?
[14:34:45] <cradek> yes
[14:35:15] <rayh> yep if you need that sort of speed.
[14:38:12] <bigengineer> okay, I'll change it and run the program again
[14:38:47] <bigengineer> I am happy with any kind of speed as long as it will work reliable
[14:40:15] <rayh> I'd say you'd have to reduce speed to about 8 to get reliable rapids with the scale the way you had it.
[14:41:16] <bigengineer> Wow! It works!
[14:41:55] <bigengineer> you mean to set the speed to 8 mm/s?
[14:42:55] <rayh> yep
[14:43:13] <rayh> If you keep the microstepping the way it was.
[14:43:29] <bigengineer> okay, but what might be interesting is that the feedrate was 600 mm/min
[14:43:48] <bigengineer> so, that's 10 mm/s, not far from 8 mm/s
[14:44:06] <rayh> so 10 mm/s when it failed
[14:44:33] <bigengineer> but I'll slow it down, I already thought I was conservative
[14:44:41] <jepler> bigengineer: it looks like your gcode is filling in lettering .. I'm curious what software generated it
[14:45:02] <rayh> 8 was a swag based on some stuff I've done here.
[14:45:31] <bigengineer> what do you mean jepler? To verbose?
[14:45:33] <rayh> maybe wag not swag.
[14:46:07] <bigengineer> wag/swag? Sorry, that is out of my vocabulary :-)
[14:46:09] <jepler> bigengineer: no -- I'm not criticising the gcode. I'd like to know what software made it
[14:46:43] <rayh> ah Scientific Wild Assed Guess (swag) Wild Assed Guess (wag)
[14:46:58] <fenn> * fenn was reading that "bioengineer"
[14:47:59] <bigengineer> Okay, I am using NX5. It has a postbuilder for building a postprocessor, which is what I did because the provide ones always came up with the K coordinate in G02/03 and emc doesn't like that
[14:48:22] <bigengineer> sometimes I bio engineer ;-)
[14:48:39] <bigengineer> rayh: aha, thanks
[14:49:26] <rayh> I didn't see your .nl extension. I'll cut my use of idioms.
[14:49:43] <bigengineer> and emc is still running,
[14:50:16] <rayh> If you can switch to 4 microsteps easily that should just about get you a good system.
[14:50:56] <rayh> You might still need to reduce the max velocity to something like 15-16 to be certain that it won't trip up.
[14:51:17] <bigengineer> explain to me the difference. Is it just that 4 microsteps is easier for emc and so for the pc?
[14:51:37] <bigengineer> if this testrun is over, I'll lower the speed
[14:51:49] <rayh> 4 microsteps does not require as many pulses to travel the same distance.
[14:52:23] <bigengineer> I don't really care about 4 or 8 microsteps but I think the neighbours prefer 8 microsteps
[14:52:30] <rayh> as 8 microsteps does
[14:53:41] <rayh> if 8 microsteps requires 800 pulses to go 1 mm then 4 microsteps should require 400 pulses to go the 1 mm.
[14:53:46] <bigengineer> oh, and what about a dual CPU? Is the ubuntu setup dual cpu aware?
[14:54:28] <rayh> What I believe is happening is that your PC can not put out as many pulses as the speed requires.
[14:54:56] <rayh> I've not tried dual core or dual processors but I suspect it will not make much difference.
[14:55:03] <bigengineer> okay, when it is working on the pulses it misreads a switch?
[14:55:15] <rayh> Because the real time threads must run on a single processor.
[14:55:55] <jepler> bigengineer: the real-time kernel we ship for 32-bit ubuntu is not SMP, it only uses a single CPU or core.
[14:56:05] <bigengineer> I have ancient dual cpu system waiting. It is build in a big tower, so lot's of room for the stepper drivers and PSU
[14:56:37] <rayh> I think the computer falls behind while making pulses
[14:57:17] <bigengineer> okay, so, if I am bored I can try to make realtime dual cpu kernel. Hmm, I have feeling that is kind of a time sink
[14:57:22] <jepler> yes it is
[14:57:45] <rayh> yes, what jepler said!!!
[14:57:45] <SWPadnos> there are experimental SMP kernels, but I'm not sure they'll save much time :)
[14:57:51] <bigengineer> Is it somewhere in log file if the comuter falls behind?
[14:57:52] <jepler> an even worse time sink is trying to make a real-time kernel that runs on a large fraction of all PCs, that's why we try to make as few as possible.
[14:59:05] <bigengineer> while my program is still running I have a moment to make you compliment
[14:59:20] <rayh> I don't think a log file will say anything other than following error.
[14:59:44] <bigengineer> I really thought that making the hardware steppermotor mounts and such would be easy and the softwareside would be hard.
[15:00:05] <bigengineer> I was suprised that I got the whole thing running in one evening
[15:00:13] <rayh> A quick test of falling behind would be to set feedrate override way down and run the program.
[15:00:41] <bigengineer> Well, there was a little troubleshooting left but thanks your help here I seem to be out of trouble for now
[15:00:50] <rayh> If it completes then the problem is that the PC can't keep up.
[15:01:35] <rayh> It took me nearly 6 weeks for my first emc try!
[15:01:47] <bigengineer> good idea rayh, I'll try that to see if it was the problem
[15:01:52] <rayh> but then that was long ago.
[15:02:02] <SWPadnos> hmmm. around 1998 IIRC :)
[15:02:07] <bigengineer> well, rayh, in those 6 weeks you learned enough to help me now!
[15:02:21] <rayh> Yes i did.
[15:02:30] <rayh> Good luck.
[15:02:39] <bigengineer> okay, only one surface left, running in the 4000+ lines!
[15:03:39] <bigengineer> DONE! Yeehaa! thanks!
[15:03:54] <rayh> good news
[15:04:08] <bigengineer> okay, I'll try it with a lower feedrate and 8 microsteps
[15:04:24] <fenn> bigengineer: when you get it running, make another set of stepper motor mounts and see if it's any easier :)
[15:06:30] <bigengineer> it won't, because I don't have motor on the z axis yet
[15:08:42] <bigengineer> but I want the machine to make it's own improvements. I think that making the z axis hardware will be harder than emc software side
[15:09:11] <bigengineer> the only thing that is really black magic to me is the postprocessor
[15:09:41] <bigengineer> I am running in feedrate/2 now, so 300 mm/min instead of 600
[15:10:02] <bigengineer> what I see now is that the speed reaches 300 mm/min most of the time
[15:10:42] <bigengineer> with the feedrate of 600 mm/min it hardly ever reached 600, probably because accelration was to low
[15:11:01] <bigengineer> crucial point coming up..and it failed
[15:11:42] <bigengineer> Okay, I will lower the speed in stepconf AND switch to 4 microsteps
[15:12:15] <bigengineer> but what I don't understand is that it never fails with a G00, that is running at a higher speed than a G01
[15:12:53] <bigengineer> is there less calculation going on with a g00 in the background?
[15:13:49] <fenn> its failing at a certain speed? try slowly changing the speed to look for resonance issues
[15:14:24] <bigengineer> it is consistently failing at the same spot
[15:14:28] <cradek> define 'fail'. did you get an error and if so, what is it?
[15:14:46] <bigengineer> joint 1 following error
[15:15:18] <fenn> that is by definition a mis-configuration
[15:15:32] <fenn> um.. but this is stepconfg isnt it
[15:15:39] <archivist> or in my case was a bug now fixed
[15:18:03] <bigengineer> the "pulse step rate at max speed" should be below "max step rate" I guess?
[15:19:23] <K`zan> Morning folks
[15:32:00] <bigengineer> I changed back to 8 microsteps but lowered the travel speed to 10mm/s everything seems fine! thanks folks!
[15:32:35] <bigengineer> now back to postprocessor hell. Are there by any change some NX guru's here?
[15:33:12] <SWPadnos> NX is a processor feature on some x64 CPUs that allows extra protection from executing code on the stack (or something like that)
[15:33:23] <SWPadnos> :)
[15:37:09] <bigengineer> Sorry swpadnos, that's not my NX.
[15:37:52] <anonimasu> bigengineer: seriously look up your motor torque curve's
[15:38:28] <anonimasu> bigengineer: then you will have a remote clue on what kind of speeds you should be running them at
[15:38:42] <anonimasu> ^_^
[15:39:48] <archivist> hint they need spare torque for cutting forces
[15:40:51] <bigengineer> I can a torque curve form the motor, but what use is it without a torque curve for the axis?
[15:41:40] <bigengineer> archivist: I'll try to minimize cutting forces. But today, even cutting through air was too much
[15:42:44] <archivist> steppers lose a lot of torque at speed
[15:44:55] <bigengineer> ok, enlighten me, max torque is just below 1000 pulse/s, let's say it is 750
[15:45:11] <bigengineer> but what is the pps? is this a full step?
[15:45:19] <archivist> probably quoted for full step
[15:45:40] <fenn> stepper torque usually falls off at around 1000rpm (1500rpm for small motors)
[15:45:55] <bigengineer> so, if I do 8 microsteps I have max torque @ 8*750=6000 pps?
[15:47:08] <archivist> probably but it will be lower than full step torque
[15:47:50] <fenn> max torque is at 0 rpm
[15:48:02] <SWPadnos> max power may be around 750RPM
[15:48:08] <SWPadnos> (and higher)
[15:49:09] <SWPadnos> if there's a torque curve that actually uses "pulses/sec" as an axis, then it should also tell you whether it was full/half/other stepping
[15:49:28] <SWPadnos> (I have seen this, I think from Xylotex or Keling)
[15:50:01] <fenn> 1000 full steps/s is 1000/200 = 5 revs/s which sounds kinda slow
[15:50:20] <SWPadnos> 300 RPM - not so slow for a large-ish motor
[15:50:33] <skunkworks_> oops..
[15:51:08] <SWPadnos> the interrupt thing?
[15:51:52] <bigengineer> the curve is for fullstep I just calculated
[15:53:32] <bigengineer> well, thge good news is that I use a speed of 10 mm/s
[15:54:20] <bigengineer> with the pitch of the screws I need 300 rpm, 5 rps or 1000 pps
[15:54:26] <skunkworks_> SWPadnos: Actually - wrong window. :) but sure - interupt thing.. ;)
[15:54:32] <SWPadnos> heh
[15:54:51] <skunkworks_> I thought emc didn't handle interupts..
[15:54:54] <bigengineer> So, accidently I am at the right spot of the curve
[15:54:58] <skunkworks_> so is that going to be an issue?
[15:55:13] <SWPadnos> I think that's a gene's point - if the interrupt goes unhandled youhave problems
[15:55:22] <SWPadnos> bigengineer, lucky you! :)
[15:55:48] <bigengineer> oh, and anonimasu, thanks for the hint
[15:56:42] <bigengineer> It is all working out very well, so, this postprocessor thing has to succeed too.
[15:58:04] <bigengineer> and again, another succesfull run of the program, now with 8 microsteps! (especially for the neighbours, bolting the machinetable to the wall wasn't such a good idea)
[15:58:15] <SWPadnos> heh
[15:58:48] <anonimasu> ^_^
[15:59:56] <archivist> heh I had a lathe in the loft leaning on the chimney, parents used to complain
[16:43:50] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT is going fishing for lunch break
[16:44:44] <archivist> hmm its in Dunkin Donuts
[17:02:15] <jymm> SWPadnos: It appears that they "say" they are backbilling and haven't actually been charging the cc all this time. I'll check my statements later, but FYI
[17:02:30] <SWPadnos> ok. thanks
[17:54:26] <skunkworks_> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp??EdpNo=3701101&sku=A455-7205&CMP=EMC-TIGEREMAIL&SRCCODE=WEM1609C
[18:32:33] <awallin> the latest matlab programming contest is CAM-oriented if anyone is interested: http://www.mathworks.com/contest/wiring/rules.html
[18:36:43] <fenn> clever concept, get hundreds of people to write code for you as a 'contest'
[18:38:19] <archivist> put a cam context on linuxcnc.org ftw
[19:00:03] <cradek> I have no idea what I'm supposed to see in this video...
[19:06:55] <alex_joni> yay SF mailarchive: 500 Internal Server Error
[19:07:30] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT back from fishing
[19:08:00] <alex_joni> what did you catch?
[19:09:55] <BigJohnT> I didn't catch anything but my other brother John caught about 8
[19:10:22] <alex_joni> SmallJohnT ?
[19:13:47] <BigJohnT> LittleJohn
[19:14:39] <BigJohnT> he caught some bass, crappie, and on bluegill
[19:14:52] <BigJohnT> little early for bluegill but getting close
[19:15:36] <skunkworks_> wait - you're both named john?
[19:16:17] <BigJohnT> yep
[19:16:24] <skunkworks_> thats different/
[19:16:35] <BigJohnT> that's why our company is called J & J Automation
[19:16:39] <SWPadnos> see George Foreman
[19:16:45] <skunkworks_> I suppose :)
[19:16:59] <skunkworks_> doesn't he have about 8 kids named george?
[19:17:08] <SWPadnos> 10 total, 5 names George
[19:17:12] <SWPadnos> named
[19:17:15] <SWPadnos> (according to wikipedia)
[19:20:09] <BigJohnT> he's not really my brother but we are both John's
[19:21:25] <alex_joni> aha
[19:21:31] <alex_joni> we knew there must be a catch
[19:21:35] <alex_joni> (not a fish)
[19:30:21] <BigJohnT> kinda on the larry and my other brother larry line sometimes we catch then sometimes not
[19:30:53] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT off to my fab shop to cut up some metal...
[19:37:17] <awallin> what is 'the SMI problem' with RTAI ?
[19:37:38] <SWPadnos> it's the SMI problem in general, not specific to RTAI (as a RT system)
[19:37:50] <SWPadnos> the problem is that SMI is an un-blockable interrupt
[19:38:02] <SWPadnos> and the code that executes is often in the BIOS, and slow
[19:38:55] <awallin> with a new motherboard, is this fix worth a try since I get the occasional realitime delay warning?
[19:39:10] <SWPadnos> occasional as in about once a minute?
[19:39:51] <awallin> less often than that. usually when opening/closing hal-scope or some other app
[19:40:52] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[19:41:21] <alex_joni> awallin: if it's an intel mobo.. go for it
[19:43:12] <awallin> I'll have to try it over the weekend. not nice to start any longer milling jobs when the realtime-delay could be lurking at any time...
[19:43:42] <SWPadnos> awallin, integrated video?
[19:44:33] <archivist> I occassionaly get one and its not an integrated video
[19:47:14] <awallin> there's integrated video on the board, but I'm using a separate graphics card
[19:48:35] <skunkworks_> is the onboard video disabled?
[19:49:05] <awallin> should be, as I'm not using it. have to check in the bios later
[19:56:31] <awallin> MAX_VELOCITY = 1000001 oooh..
[19:56:51] <alex_joni> inches?
[19:56:52] <alex_joni> :P
[19:57:32] <awallin> putting this in [TRAJ] might cause the traj-planner problems explained on the list:
[19:57:34] <awallin> DEFAULT_ACCELERATION = 1000000 MAX_ACCELERATION = 1000001
[19:59:15] <alex_joni> FREQGEN_MAXFREQ?
[19:59:18] <alex_joni> that file is a mess
[19:59:23] <cradek> two loops, glass scales, infinite acceleration, freqgen, .....???
[19:59:47] <alex_joni> # PID tuning params
[19:59:48] <alex_joni> MAX_OUTPUT = 10000000000000
[19:59:52] <alex_joni> omg
[20:00:15] <cradek> sure, so we conclude that the trajectory planner doesn't work, right?
[20:00:19] <SWPadnos> I wonder if someone thinks those settings are in steps
[20:00:35] <SWPadnos> (as they are in several other programs)
[20:01:01] <alex_joni> BASE_PERIOD = 50000
[20:01:36] <cradek> MIN_FERROR = 2000
[20:02:01] <cradek> maybe he WAS getting following errors (because of invalid configuration of stepgen) so he disabled the ferror checks
[20:04:21] <cradek> 1000001mm/sec2 is 10G. Somehow I suspect that his machine will fall behind if he tells it to accelerate this fast.
[20:04:31] <awallin> this might be fun: HOME_SEARCH_VEL = -20 20mm/s = 1200mm/min = 47 ipm
[20:04:33] <cradek> err 100G
[20:05:07] <cradek> I should not have responded so soon (assuming he had an unmolested step/dir setup)
[20:05:25] <cradek> as more information dribbles in, it's more apparent that he's set up some very odd things.
[20:05:47] <SWPadnos> how about a response that starts "what were you thinking?" :)
[20:05:50] <cradek> too bad he makes us guess
[20:06:04] <awallin> let's ask for the HAL files too then :)
[20:07:25] <skunkworks_> I bet he didn't use stepconf.. ;)
[20:09:42] <cradek> I wonder if his emc version is very old
[20:09:49] <cradek> # TASK = minimilltask
[20:09:56] <cradek> for instance we don't have this in our configs anymore
[20:16:29] <SWPadnos> started here I bet: http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/emc2/configs/stepper/stepper_mm.ini?rev=
[20:16:39] <SWPadnos> I noticed the revision number in his file
[20:17:17] <cradek> ok, 2.1.4
[20:17:31] <alex_joni> old, but not _that_ old
[20:18:02] <SWPadnos> minimilltask was there until pre-2.2. it's in all 2.1.x releases
[20:24:21] <cradek> If you have hardware limit switches, again the soft limit seems to have no value. ... Home itself seems to have limited value. ... Am I missing anything?
[20:24:44] <alex_joni> cradek: yes, he's assuming homing by eye
[20:24:57] <alex_joni> (at least that's my impression)
[20:26:38] <cradek> that was the first part of what he said (which I also disagree with)
[20:26:52] <cradek> but the second part "if you have hardware limit switches" ...
[20:27:38] <cradek> the whole thing where the guy says he gets "trapped" by soft limits if his machine is in the wrong place when he starts emc -- I don't understand this because soft limits are not turned on until/unless you home
[20:30:56] <alex_joni> a machine which moves beyond a hardware limit switch is broken
[20:31:02] <alex_joni> *seriously* broken
[20:31:28] <SWPadnos> using a limit switch as a home switch is also broken, but included for convenience (IMO)
[20:33:32] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: less broken :)
[20:33:36] <alex_joni> but yeah..
[20:33:37] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:34:17] <cradek> it requires that you can hit the switch without disabling the machine - I could be convinced that that is broken behavior
[20:34:44] <SWPadnos> and you have to move off the switch too - it can't be the actual home position
[20:35:13] <SWPadnos> or maybe you can have it actually be 0, if you use some combination of HOME_POSITION and HOME_OFFSET
[20:36:32] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: yeah, that's how people tweak it
[20:36:42] <alex_joni> hope my email is understandable
[20:37:06] <SWPadnos> yep. I could have read it before mentioning HOME_{OFFSET,POSITION} :)
[20:39:37] <cradek> IMO nothing wrong with homing by eye. it's a very good practice on a machine without limit switches
[20:40:10] <alex_joni> cradek: if you use a marker, and are within a couple of tenths
[20:40:27] <alex_joni> but if you move to where the workpiece is, and push home.. then it's stupid
[20:40:35] <alex_joni> (instead of pushing touch-off)
[20:40:39] <cradek> even if you can home by eye within 10mm, it will keep you from crashing
[20:40:46] <cradek> yes I agree that's bad practice
[20:40:53] <cradek> but I suspect that's what most people do
[20:41:01] <cradek> they do not know better
[20:53:47] <alex_joni> heh Kirk is slowly getting there :)
[20:56:02] <alex_joni> AFAIK BigJohnT types AFAIK a lot ..
[20:57:03] <SWPadnos> ISTR that you're correct (AFAIK)
[20:57:26] <alex_joni> AFAIK, AFAIK is the same as AFAICT
[20:59:28] <SWPadnos> not quite
[21:00:30] <SWPadnos> AFAIK is more of "I think it's this way", rather than ACAICT = "from what I've (just) read, it seems to be this way"
[21:00:37] <SWPadnos> AFAICT, that was