#emc | Logs for 2008-02-03

[00:00:09] <tomp> thx jepler unpythonic :)
[00:01:32] <skunkworks> tomp: sounds like an interesting project..
[00:02:58] <fretless85> im going to get some sleep...good night @ all!
[00:03:16] <tomp> nite
[00:06:50] <tomp> i use the L298 sets from solarbotics, and wondered where the analog velocity went.... there aint one, you just toggle the enable with pwm to generate different speeds ( duty cycle is proportional to VelcityCommand on old amp )
[00:07:13] <tomp> hmmm, i dont need the special 7i33 pwm to analog feature
[00:07:45] <tomp> and seems like solarbotics is outta buisness
[00:09:28] <tomp> no, google couldnt find em http://www.solarbotics.com/products/l298/
[00:10:58] <tomp> http://www.solarbotics.com/products/k_cmd/ 19$ cheap, use for 2 teeny motors ( rc car size) or 1 tiny motor ( blender size ) by dbling the outputs
[00:16:04] <skunkworks> tomp: 2 axis>
[00:16:06] <skunkworks> ?
[00:16:10] <tomp> i bet pwm at low speed is 'chuggy' ( on wait on wait on )
[00:16:13] <tomp> 3 axis
[00:16:25] <skunkworks> I mean - that board..
[00:16:25] <tomp> (3 dbld drivers )
[00:16:43] <tomp> board is 2 tiny or dbld for 1 larger
[00:18:50] <skunkworks> ok - what is dbld?
[00:19:32] <skunkworks> tomp: cradek ran his lathe with only 5 levels of pwm.
[00:19:50] <skunkworks> +-5 levels
[00:20:18] <skunkworks> was it something I said?
[01:19:24] <Jymmmm> Howdt Folks!
[01:19:31] <Jymmmm> Howdy even
[01:19:49] <Jymmmm> np
[01:48:15] <tomp> the solarbotics l298 driver http://imagebin.org/13644 ( dang cell phone camera! and no ubuntu usb driver to connect with, had to email to myself )
[01:49:07] <toastydeath> fff
[01:53:13] <fenn> rawr
[01:53:37] <fenn> $16 for some screw terminals
[01:54:13] <tomp> accent on the 'some' ( those are 'some' terminals )
[01:54:55] <fenn> on the solarbotics thing?
[01:55:04] <toastydeath> lol
[01:55:05] <fenn> they look pretty normal to me
[01:55:14] <tomp> the 16$ ones you mentioned
[01:55:32] <fenn> the way i see it, the solarbotics thing is a l298 with screw terminals attached
[01:55:40] <fenn> l298 - $3
[01:55:51] <fenn> screw terminals ($19-$3)
[01:56:11] <tomp> yeh, i dont wire as well as the pcb does. i assemble the pcb a lot faster
[01:57:14] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Tomp - what did you change?
[01:58:25] <tomp> the pic shows the outputs paralleled, the dirs and enables are also paralleled ( pic doesnt show ), i used bigger diodes and 7905
[01:58:35] <tomp> 7805
[01:58:50] <GNieport> how is feedrate handled in a G2/G3 interpolated move?
[01:59:18] <cradek> same as linear - just feed along the path
[01:59:25] <GNieport> :0
[01:59:40] <SkullWorks_PGAB> its porportional to each axis so velocity is constant
[02:00:23] <fenn> GNieport: a better question is 'how is accel handled in a g2 move?'
[02:00:38] <cradek> did I answer the right question?
[02:01:08] <GNieport> fenn, not when the post wizard asks me "true radial feedrate calculation?"
[02:01:24] <fenn> hm, what does that mean?
[02:01:25] <cradek> uh what does that mean?
[02:01:33] <cradek> fenn: that's a good question
[02:02:15] <GNieport> one sec
[02:02:48] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Maybe its asking if feed is based on spindle centerline or cutter comp location.
[02:04:20] <SkullWorks_PGAB> so Tomp - in paralleling the H-bridges did you use 8 diodes or 4 larger ones?
[02:04:36] <GNieport> http://pastebin.ca/889665
[02:05:15] <tomp> larger, looks like 1n4002's (orig were signal diode size )
[02:05:43] <SkullWorks_PGAB> never mind - I'm sick and I didn't look carefully at you pic
[02:06:38] <tomp> jepler has a pcb and schema on unpythonic, i could just buy these ready made
[02:07:44] <tomp> oh and 8 pcs, and all larger
[02:09:20] <fenn> GNieport: emc only calculates the tangential velocity if you are using tool diameter comp
[02:09:37] <fenn> otherwise it will just move at the requested feed rate
[02:10:02] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I built one of these with the 7805 and 50V? diodes... but its a bad idea to run it at higher voltages that 7805 GETS HOT!
[02:10:32] <tomp> yeh it gotta drop the excess
[02:10:46] <SkullWorks_PGAB> it really needs a 2 step on the 5v source
[02:11:36] <GNieport> fenn, thx
[02:11:45] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I used mother board chipset heatsinks on the L298n
[02:12:01] <fenn> dropping 36V across a 7805 wastes 86% of the input power..
[02:12:24] <tomp> 26V is max reccommended. still very hi
[02:12:41] <fenn> for that board? i thought l298 was ~36V
[02:13:02] <tomp> the chip vs the mfct r of board
[02:13:04] <SkullWorks_PGAB> almost 50V
[02:13:33] <SkullWorks_PGAB> but remember the source
[02:13:44] <fenn> oh wow l298 is 46V even better
[02:14:58] <SkullWorks_PGAB> these guys are making items for the toy robot market - units likely powered by 2 motorcycle batts in series so there would only be ~26V on a full charge.
[02:16:56] <fenn> GNieport: update from the back room: emc actually doesnt change the feed, it only works properly in "inverse time mode"
[02:17:12] <fenn> or.. something
[02:17:39] <cradek> fenn: "works properly" is some serious editorializing :-)
[02:18:15] <fenn> well, depending on your definition of 'works properly'
[02:18:20] <cradek> of course
[02:18:50] <fenn> i suppose i could try it and see
[02:18:51] <cradek> fenn: that post setting makes me think controls tend to work like emc
[02:20:02] <dmess> i plan on running my 1/2 ton pick up on HHO this summer...
[02:20:18] <tomp> re: the solarbotics, thier pdf manual shows they tested at 9,12&18.95V, and have specific recommended device changes to use 26V,30V,35V and 46V
[02:20:35] <tomp> dmess: i'd like to see it, been looking at that stuff
[02:21:27] <fenn> i'm planning on running my dirigible on the stratospheric temperature differential this summer
[02:21:36] <dmess> i have a propane machine that should be easy to retro .. so im in.
[02:21:52] <dmess> GOOD luck
[02:22:04] <tomp> fenn: layer inversion will let you change altitude at least 2x a year
[02:22:17] <fenn> dmess: it was a link you posted earlier, they called it 'gravity powered' for some odd reason
[02:23:12] <dmess> ya.. i read. it and forgot it.. seems out there tooooo far.. for we mere mortals.
[02:23:21] <fenn> seriously though, flying windmills are cool
[02:23:47] <dmess> yes.. and would/could work
[02:25:15] <dmess> ive been an alternative energy bug for 30 yrs..
[02:25:55] <toastydeath> lol how do you power something with gravity
[02:26:07] <dmess> thinkinin about over-unity for 25 or so...
[02:26:23] <fenn> toastydeath: you set up a series of space tethers such that you can lift bags of dirt off the moon and deposit them on earth
[02:26:28] <dmess> i could... you have funding..
[02:26:38] <fenn> 60MJ/kg of moon dust
[02:26:51] <toastydeath> fenn: that would work
[02:27:16] <fenn> or you can stop halfway and turn them into space stations in low earth orbit
[02:27:23] <dmess> i drop from yhe suface of the earth.. cheaper...
[02:27:37] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I need to build up a small propane sized waste motoroil furnace to cast up some replacement end caps for my servo motors.
[02:27:38] <fenn> just need to find a bottomless hole
[02:28:25] <dmess> 3 km is deep enuff... and a return system... secret for now...;)
[02:28:25] <fenn> SkullWorks_PGAB: if you arent doing much casting, you can just use charcoal or even hardwood
[02:28:39] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I been sick lately - this chest cold allows me no rest so I don't get anything done.
[02:29:56] <fenn> or get some za12 zinc alloy..
[02:30:05] <fenn> i think that melts on a stove top
[02:30:10] <SkullWorks_PGAB> yeah I'm going to try a disposable Charcoal unit - but I'm afraid of sparks - everything is a tinder box around here
[02:30:15] <dmess> HHO gas apperantly is hot enuf to cast stuff
[02:30:29] <fenn> well duh, "HHO" runs the frickin space shuttle
[02:31:18] <dmess> but its easy enuf to make.... at home by morons like you and i
[02:31:26] <fenn> sure, in small quantities
[02:31:48] <dmess> it doesnt take alot to cook shit..
[02:32:12] <SkullWorks_PGAB> HHO?
[02:32:31] <fenn> well, actually a hydrogen flame is hotter, but there's less energy in the reaction so you do need a lot more than an equivalent volume of (propane, natural gas, butane)
[02:32:35] <dmess> hho gas...
[02:32:39] <toastydeath> 33% oxygen, 66% hyrogen
[02:32:51] <SkullWorks_PGAB> you mean 4H + O2 ?
[02:32:59] <toastydeath> yes
[02:33:02] <dmess> si
[02:33:10] <fenn> 4 H2 + 2 O2?
[02:33:14] <dmess> as a gas
[02:33:24] <dmess> it rocks
[02:33:47] <dmess> and its safer than H
[02:33:54] <gezar> sounds expensive
[02:34:00] <dmess> NOT
[02:34:56] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Chem, ouch, last studied circa 1979.
[02:35:24] <dmess> with the right generator some vehichle are exclusive to HHO
[02:35:44] <dmess> me too..LOL
[02:36:10] <dmess> more physics tough..
[02:37:43] <fenn> dmess: what's going on is the hydrogen flame burns faster, pre-vaporizing the gasoline droplets
[02:37:57] <dmess> chem pcs have been easier to remember...
[02:38:45] <dmess> but i dont plan on running any gasoline/propane in it at ALL
[02:39:01] <fenn> well, that wont work
[02:39:03] <fenn> sorry
[02:39:35] <SkullWorks_PGAB> what to they use as a catylist a super hot magnesium wire screen?
[02:39:58] <dmess> why wont it run on hydrogen... and oxygen.. if tuned correctly??
[02:40:14] <fenn> dmess: where you gonna get all that hydrogen?
[02:40:35] <dmess> from the hho cel onboarb..
[02:40:51] <fenn> and the electricity to run the cell, where does that come from?
[02:41:17] <SkullWorks_PGAB> conservation of energy - amount of energy to separate
[02:41:34] <dmess> from the front of the engine.. there's an alternator there..
[02:41:44] <SkullWorks_PGAB> h2o into gases is same as there re-combining
[02:42:01] <fenn> dmess: here's a little experiment in perpetual motion: take a dump in a mason jar, then mix it up with some water and drink it. repeat until you get a satisfactory experimental result
[02:42:24] <jmkasunich> dmess: it takes at least as much energy into the cell as the hydrogen and oxygen out of the call can produce
[02:43:04] <SkullWorks_PGAB> only FREE engery input would be solar - but then the time factor makes it impractical
[02:43:22] <fenn> well, the coal's just sittin there
[02:43:26] <jmkasunich> there is no free energy
[02:43:30] <fenn> doesnt that mean it's "FREE"
[02:43:46] <jmkasunich> solar comes from the sun, coal comes from long dead trees, oil comes from long dead animals, etc
[02:43:59] <dmess> ihave a dream that YOU are ALL wrong..... sorry.. this is the 2nd way i show a plus in enegy and the only comeback from peeps is dont youknow this.... yes.. i know.. and dont agree..
[02:44:15] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I call it free cause its allready being wasted
[02:44:19] <jmkasunich> hho energy comes from the minds of true believers
[02:44:35] <fenn> dmess: take an electric motor, connect one terminal to the other
[02:44:41] <fenn> since the motor acts as a generator, it should run itself right?
[02:45:05] <dmess> no.. but it will run another one..
[02:46:15] <dmess> i have nothing to lose JMK..
[02:46:48] <jmkasunich> just your time and energy, and the respect of those who understand conservation of energy
[02:46:52] <dmess> Fenn if you spin it...
[02:46:59] <fenn> dmess: try it and see what happens
[02:47:39] <fenn> or do the equivalent process with an added complication of electrolysis/combustion
[02:47:56] <dmess> been there fenn... peddled a bike...
[02:48:11] <fenn> the HHO thing only works (if it does work) because it catalyzes the gasoline combustion
[02:48:19] <fenn> not sure catalyze is the right word
[02:48:31] <dmess> no worry
[02:49:12] <dmess> well iff i still need some fuel i dont care.. but we have to get BETTER
[02:50:17] <fenn> well, using a smaller motor is a start
[02:50:42] <fenn> usually they compromise on efficiency for power by making the stroke too short
[02:50:53] <fenn> in order to fit the engine under a car hood
[02:51:13] <fenn> better way is to have a diesel generator in the back and electric motors to handle peak power
[02:51:17] <jmkasunich> the problem with car engines (that outweighs everything else) is the range of power needed
[02:51:31] <dmess> i was thinking the h have a boost to the combustion and the O vapourized and did the same as it did in the big old make &break engines... HP
[02:51:32] <jmkasunich> cruising even at highway speeds is only about 10-20HP
[02:51:44] <jmkasunich> but for accel and such, the engine needs to put out much more
[02:51:52] <jmkasunich> so its inefficient at cruise
[02:52:29] <fenn> dmess: a standard car alternator is rated at about 500W, and your car uses 15-30kW at highway speeds
[02:52:31] <jmkasunich> thats why hybrids do so well - the engine can be sized for average instead of peak load
[02:52:44] <fenn> so there's no way the alternator can generate enough H2 to run an engine
[02:53:11] <fenn> er, sorry, the engine GENERATES 15kW, it uses about 100kW of input energy
[02:53:36] <fenn> so you'd have to run 200 car alternators to run an engine
[02:53:41] <dmess> what engine>>
[02:54:02] <fenn> ballpark figures.. a car engine
[02:55:03] <dmess> my 4.3l GM on propane wont make anywhere near that.. and runs like a watch
[02:55:12] <SkullWorks_PGAB> saw a 1.5 liter engine without a cam and valves that had a 70:1 compression ratio - would run on almost anything combustable that could be pumped thru the injector - including wheel bearing grease and wood pulp - made like 400HP - but it tore it self apart - crank and rod bearings just were not up to the kinds of loads it put out
[02:55:42] <fenn> heh wood pulp
[02:56:07] <dmess> send me dwgs... lets build her..
[02:56:31] <jmkasunich> SkullWorks_PGAB: sounds like some flavor of diesel
[02:56:33] <SkullWorks_PGAB> yeah - for the test they used sawdust mixed with white wine
[02:56:55] <dmess> sweet... eats anything..
[02:57:10] <fenn> trailer of wood has the same energy content as a tank of gas..
[02:57:17] <SkullWorks_PGAB> it is very much like a diesel - but no normal valves
[02:57:37] <dmess> 2 stroke??
[02:58:03] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Infact they used a VW Diesel block for the testbed
[02:58:35] <dmess> 2 or 4 stroke...??
[02:58:57] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I built the cylinder head for it - machined from solid 7075
[02:58:58] <dmess> my fart
[02:59:24] <dmess> hemi head.. no holes??
[02:59:43] <SkullWorks_PGAB> operates as a 4 stroke with something called 180 degree timing
[03:00:02] <SkullWorks_PGAB> flat head
[03:00:54] <SkullWorks_PGAB> combustion chamber was 8mm x 22mm by 2mm deep
[03:01:48] <dmess> WOW...
[03:01:57] <fenn> the way i see it, you want to make the engine out of ceramic and get combustion chamber temps as high as possible
[03:02:22] <fenn> every bit of heat lost in cooling the engine is waste
[03:02:48] <dmess> i see.. keep is as low as possible and burn ALL the gas
[03:03:13] <jmkasunich> valveless diesels have been around for a long time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposed_piston_engine
[03:03:20] <jmkasunich> WW2 sub engines for example
[03:03:28] <jmkasunich> but they have emissions issues
[03:03:36] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Took me a week to understand how it worked - they had to show me a "normal" buick indy block with the 180 degree heads that had only 6:1 compression to understand the intake/exhaust method
[03:03:38] <fenn> or graphite maybe instead of ceramic, backed up with steel
[03:03:48] <fenn> dunno how the expansion issues work out
[03:03:58] <jmkasunich> SkullWorks_PGAB: how does it work?
[03:04:31] <jmkasunich> the opposed piston engines have the two crankshafts out of phase, so the exhaust ports open and close before the intake
[03:04:39] <SkullWorks_PGAB> think of a cylinder going accrossed the top of the head
[03:04:42] <dmess> still spinin in me head Skull.. but ill figure it out too
[03:04:46] <jmkasunich> dunno how you'd do that in a conventional engine
[03:05:07] <SkullWorks_PGAB> drill a hole down thru the cylinder
[03:05:19] <jmkasunich> a cylinder at 90 degrees to the normal cylinder?
[03:05:28] <dmess> boxter style.. twin opposed...
[03:05:35] <dmess> >??
[03:05:55] <fenn> another idea is to filter out the nitrogen in air with zeolite, so you have a pure oxygen/gasoline mixture
[03:06:13] <SkullWorks_PGAB> when the cylinder is rotated 180 degree the hole will line up again
[03:06:21] <fenn> though gasoline would be too volatile with pure oxygen
[03:06:37] <jmkasunich> SkullWorks_PGAB: you are describing a rotary valve I think
[03:06:46] <SkullWorks_PGAB> kind of
[03:06:57] <fenn> poppet valve?
[03:07:04] <fenn> corliss valve?
[03:07:04] <jmkasunich> so there _are_ moving parts other than crankshaft, conrods, and pistons?
[03:07:06] <dmess> rot valve
[03:07:40] <jmkasunich> when you said valveless I thought you meant truly valveless, with no moving parts except pistons, conrods and crank
[03:07:46] <SkullWorks_PGAB> whats the devil of the whole thing was the inventor got the math/timing methods patented
[03:07:59] <SkullWorks_PGAB> not the actual implementation
[03:08:38] <dmess> so if we figure it out on our own.. we cn use them...
[03:09:00] <fenn> as long as its different
[03:09:19] <fenn> and you dont trip on any of the other billion patents out there
[03:09:22] <dmess> it will be.. at -40 c
[03:09:30] <SkullWorks_PGAB> well the single cylinder handles both intake and exhaust - the super high compression burns everything utterly
[03:09:48] <fenn> i dont think its possible to make anything without accidentally violating some patent you've never heard of
[03:10:09] <dmess> ok so catch me... ;)
[03:11:37] <SkullWorks_PGAB> part of the critcal detail was getting the head and piston tops coated with the same ceramic used on the exposed joints on the space shuttle
[03:13:42] <fenn> 7075 isnt very heat resistant
[03:14:08] <SkullWorks_PGAB> oh yeah - no cooling to the head (water or oil )
[03:14:30] <dmess> air cooled only??
[03:14:31] <jmkasunich> increasing maximum temperature improves the carnot efficiency
[03:14:48] <SkullWorks_PGAB> this coating was great
[03:15:38] <dmess> sulfamate nickel plates on 7075
[03:16:12] <dmess> i forget the mil spec
[03:16:14] <SkullWorks_PGAB> you could hold the piston in your hand and apply an oxy-acetylene torch to it for 5 minutes - the face was glowing but the heat didn't reach your hand
[03:16:48] <dmess> WAY COOL...
[03:17:10] <dmess> how thick was the piston??
[03:17:27] <SkullWorks_PGAB> VW OEM diesel
[03:17:40] <SkullWorks_PGAB> didn't cut one up
[03:18:02] <dmess> VW bus or car..
[03:18:25] <SkullWorks_PGAB> like a 79 rabbit 1.5 liter block
[03:18:34] <dmess> oh.. LOL
[03:18:48] <dmess> they were sweet machines..
[03:19:48] <SkullWorks_PGAB> was a bear to start - if you didn't get it going in the first 40 sec your batt was dead
[03:20:21] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I think he went way too high on the compression ratio
[03:21:09] <SkullWorks_PGAB> but he said it had to be pretty high to avoid NoX
[03:22:28] <dmess> my friends had a $3.00 a day ether habit...LOL
[03:24:14] <SkullWorks_PGAB> costs more to smoke nowdays
[03:24:22] <fenn> that doesnt make sense - NOx is formed at high temps and pressures
[03:24:35] <fenn> heh just dont get hooked on both :)
[03:24:46] <fenn> BOOM
[03:26:22] <SkullWorks_PGAB> fenn - supposedly there is a point above which it isn't an issue - I never saw any test results - I only built the head and other support equip for the project
[03:27:39] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I think it could have been refined - but the cost was impractical
[03:28:22] <fenn> well it sounds interesting
[03:28:26] <dmess> i will make HHO work in my truck... im funny that way..
[03:28:46] <SkullWorks_PGAB> a complete rollerbearing crank and rods
[03:28:57] <fenn> SkullWorks_PGAB: google sez that if you let the gas cool slowly the NOx will dissipate
[03:29:36] <fenn> roller bearing crank is something we should have had 50 years ago
[03:30:08] <fenn> a bearing is what - $20?
[03:30:25] <SkullWorks_PGAB> the tech is there - no one want to pay the price upfront
[03:31:10] <toastydeath> why would you want to replace a hydrostatic bearing with a roller bearing?
[03:31:16] <fenn> it's more efficient
[03:31:30] <toastydeath> wnat about wear?
[03:31:32] <toastydeath> *what
[03:31:34] <fenn> what about it?
[03:31:50] <toastydeath> what's going to prevent wear in roller bearings?
[03:31:56] <fenn> um, the rolling action
[03:32:13] <toastydeath> hydrostatic bearings last longer than roller bearings do.
[03:32:36] <SkullWorks_PGAB> not under these shock loads
[03:32:38] <fenn> it's a hydrodynamic bearing anyway
[03:32:52] <toastydeath> hydrostatic - the oil is injected under pressure.
[03:33:12] <fenn> not at the con-rod bearing
[03:33:24] <toastydeath> oh, connecting rods
[03:33:41] <toastydeath> i was talking about the crank
[03:33:58] <fenn> are you sure it's hydrostatic? i thought injection was just for better lubrication
[03:34:04] <toastydeath> nope
[03:34:14] <toastydeath> it's hydrostatic
[03:34:35] <toastydeath> oriface hydrostatic bearing.
[03:35:02] <SkullWorks_PGAB> either way - it pounded the bearings to foil in less than 600 miles
[03:35:20] <fenn> wheee
[03:35:38] <toastydeath> what did?
[03:35:50] <fenn> an experimental 70:1 compression engine
[03:35:52] <toastydeath> ah
[03:36:10] <toastydeath> if you don't size the bearing properly, of course it will fail
[03:36:49] <SkullWorks_PGAB> there just isn't enough load bearing surface in a 1.5 liter 4 cyl block to handle 450 HP @ 1800 rpm
[03:37:10] <fenn> there is if you make it from scratch
[03:37:56] <SkullWorks_PGAB> that is true - but the guy didn't have that kind of money to play with
[03:38:18] <fenn> oh well
[03:38:28] <fenn> prototype was too big then
[03:38:47] <fenn> hire a model engineer :P
[03:39:24] <SkullWorks_PGAB> well engine #2 was a 205 CID Buick V8 - it drove normally
[03:40:01] <SkullWorks_PGAB> then they went smaller to the VW diesel block for #3
[03:40:23] <fenn> what was the first one? a lawnmower engine?
[03:40:50] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Cummings 6cyl
[03:41:38] <SkullWorks_PGAB> seals kept failing on it
[03:42:04] <fenn> i think i'd rather experiment with something i didnt need a crane to move
[03:43:21] <SkullWorks_PGAB> seal material in #3 was like a glass phenolic that was 65% Tungsten and graphite from EDM electrodes
[03:43:36] <fenn> egad
[03:44:07] <SkullWorks_PGAB> it worked for the life of the block - no idea on long term
[03:45:34] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I think they should have made custom pistons and had the block sleeved down to under 600CC
[03:46:38] <SkullWorks_PGAB> as it was the flywheel was almost 3" thick solid
[03:48:24] <fenn> maybe that's why the shock load was so high
[03:48:46] <fenn> force didnt have anywhere to go but down
[03:49:38] <SkullWorks_PGAB> this was a slow motor - supposed to redline about 2800
[03:50:07] <SkullWorks_PGAB> more like a steam engine
[03:50:38] <SkullWorks_PGAB> but when each cyl fired it was violent
[03:51:12] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I think today with better electronic timed injection that could have been managed
[03:52:06] <dmess> long slow boat cylinders...
[03:52:22] <SkullWorks_PGAB> slow down the injection stream - less fuel initially with a longer duration
[03:53:12] <SkullWorks_PGAB> but he only had some crazy uber high pressure mechainical unit at the time
[03:53:17] <fenn> i think it would be neat to generate electricity directly from the piston, no crankshaft (dual opposed pistons)
[03:53:59] <dmess> i have a pic of the largest diesel in the world... guys are standing i the case installing the bearings with a crane
[03:54:06] <fenn> "inertial confinement combustion"
[03:54:09] <SkullWorks_PGAB> piston made of ferrite in a silicon electroplated AL bore?
[03:54:30] <fenn> dmess: it's also the most efficient internal combustion engine
[03:54:37] <dmess> skull we should talk...
[03:55:10] <fenn> SkullWorks_PGAB: i was thinking more just a magnet on the shaft
[03:55:15] <dmess> fenn.. we ned to chat..
[03:55:21] <fenn> we are chatting :)
[03:55:47] <SkullWorks_PGAB> and very off topic
[03:56:25] <fenn> hey, you could use HAL to do engine timing :P
[03:56:25] <dmess> im on moving magnets... plus some water...
[03:56:33] <tomp> the l298's been running a few hrs now, 24V= supply, the 7805 never warmed up, but i put a fan on the l298, cold now, still running 100% duty cycle ( no ammeter handy )
[03:56:55] <dmess> hal... is the plc for all im desighning
[03:57:09] <SkullWorks_PGAB> what is it driving?
[03:57:22] <fenn> actually HAL/PC would be a little slow for engine timing
[03:57:38] <dmess> thru coils... generating power...
[03:57:52] <tomp> not much of a flywheel ( disk 1/4 thx, 1.5" dia )
[03:57:55] <SkullWorks_PGAB> re L298n
[03:58:19] <fenn> or you could do some kind of switched reluctance with lots of little fins to get more force
[03:58:30] <fenn> magnetic switches
[03:58:40] <fenn> uh, nevermind
[03:59:10] <dmess> electricity from gravity,,,
[03:59:17] <fenn> electrogravitics
[03:59:22] <dmess> dont nevermind...
[03:59:35] <fenn> the hoover dam was only 700 million dollars
[04:00:06] <SkullWorks_PGAB> dmess mount a windmill on your vehicle
[04:00:10] <dmess> i can do it cheaper... and DIFFERENT,,,, better..
[04:00:20] <dmess> i have 1
[04:00:35] <fenn> (48 million at the time)
[04:01:02] <SkullWorks_PGAB> Fenn - those were what 1930's dollars on the gold standard?
[04:01:08] <fenn> yep
[04:01:14] <dmess> too many short sighted people these days...
[04:01:27] <fenn> too many no-sighted people
[04:01:47] <dmess> yes them too
[04:02:33] <dmess> all i want to do is save the world... and i cant get a hand...
[04:02:47] <fenn> what do you need?
[04:02:55] <dmess> other than from family...
[04:03:00] <fenn> a mason jar?
[04:03:32] <SkullWorks_PGAB> if we had another 29 - like depression - no one would work for a pitance on public works projects like they did back then - atleast not until there was no other way to get food.
[04:03:56] <dmess> have them.. the HHO is just wating for more temprate wheather,,,
[04:04:29] <fenn> the public works projects were mostly just busywork.. poor way to build an economy back up
[04:05:02] <fenn> i hope we have a nice good depression so something gets done around here for once
[04:05:16] <SkullWorks_PGAB> true but we reaped the benefits for decades afterwards
[04:05:39] <fenn> i'm just saying busywork doesn't create wealth
[04:05:42] <dmess> the gravity generator... was put on hold when GOLD went thru the roof... they pumped it and are mining SOME of my cache.
[04:06:18] <fenn> well now you get to fill it back up again
[04:07:20] <fenn> problem with electricity generating schemes is that electricity is so damned cheap
[04:07:21] <dmess> they paid 1 cent per litre... to pump it.... who would have bout in??? right no??
[04:07:27] <dmess> now>
[04:07:35] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I'll bet the old timers are down in the holes again up in Victor & Cripple Creek
[04:07:55] <tomp> i ran some calcs on brushless motor battery driven bike. it looks charging batteries and accounting for 1 cycle of battery's life (2400cycles) is near 31 cents for near 35 miles. My Honda gets 30 mpg and gas is near 3$, so 30 miles costs 3$. thats 31cents versus 3 dollars! sound reasonable?
[04:08:16] <fenn> what's the range on a full charge?
[04:08:25] <tomp> they say 40, i say 30
[04:08:38] <tomp> just conservative
[04:08:42] <SkullWorks_PGAB> max sustained speed?
[04:08:49] <tomp> 13 to 18 mph
[04:08:50] <fenn> bikes usually get at least 60mpg on gasoline
[04:08:55] <dmess> they pumped with 4 - 48 inch pumps on discharge.. for 4 yrs.....
[04:09:14] <fenn> aw 18mph that's pathetic
[04:10:17] <fenn> supercapacitors + small turbo diesel is the way to go
[04:10:34] <tomp> i meant the cost, is that proportion seem reasonable ( i can get more watts and more speed )
[04:11:01] <fenn> well, my office chair costs nothing and goes 0 mph
[04:11:04] <dmess> the guy who grabbed it is building a 13 Million dollar hole in Hailibury....
[04:11:40] <fenn> the honda is not free either
[04:11:58] <twice2> imo, solar thermal. fresnel lense traking the sun
[04:12:25] <fenn> ew no, use a parabolic trough mirror heating a collector tube
[04:12:43] <dmess> twice2... you have MY tracking system>>
[04:12:43] <twice2> i want one in my back yard
[04:13:15] <dmess> fenn... you b@#$%
[04:13:16] <twice2> dmess: no
[04:13:43] <dmess> yours tilt???
[04:13:55] <fenn> lenses are inefficient, heavy, and expensive
[04:14:48] <twice2> anyone doing solar or telescope work with emc?
[04:14:54] <dmess> parabolic trough made from strips of mirror??
[04:15:03] <fenn> no, there's dedicated software that is better
[04:15:07] <fenn> (i guess)
[04:15:27] <dmess> EMC would do it SWEET
[04:15:37] <fenn> solar tracking is so simple though, you can do it with analog electronics
[04:15:39] <dmess> hal etc
[04:15:54] <fenn> two led's and two transistors
[04:16:25] <dmess> thats how i did it in 1986..
[04:16:47] <fenn> hmm something like that at least
[04:17:05] <dmess> not leds but photo trancieversers
[04:17:32] <twice2> the focal point of the mirror must stay on target while tracking the sun
[04:17:46] <dmess> mine did..
[04:18:36] <twice2> dmess: did you generate steam?
[04:18:51] <dmess> it held the TUBE.. where water recirculated and exited.... was a preheater for to hot water tank.
[04:18:52] <fenn> this is what i'm talking about http://www.redrok.com/electron.htm#led3x
[04:19:25] <fenn> too much stuff on one page
[04:20:07] <dmess> on a small CLOSED scale i did generate steam but NOT in december/january. at 49 deg lat.
[04:21:03] <fenn> i wonder about using propane as the working fluid
[04:21:17] <twice2> These guys know the score: http://www.pge.com/news/news_releases/q4_2007/071105.html
[04:22:06] <fenn> whenever you see the phrase "create jobs" you know the project is based on political pork
[04:22:07] <dmess> negatory...
[04:22:59] <twice2> 177 mega watts from the sun
[04:23:15] <dmess> twice2... i started this progect 24 yrs ago...
[04:23:16] <fenn> ...most of the time
[04:23:27] <twice2> one one square mile of ground
[04:23:36] <dmess> they stoll it from me in 1998
[04:24:51] <dmess> i had 1 set of MY hand drawn drg's go missing 1 time..... 1 yr later its all over pop science
[04:25:49] <dmess> i was in high school at the time
[04:26:58] <dmess> twice2.. thanks for twistin the knife...
[04:27:38] <dmess> i wasnt bleedin' enuf as it was....
[04:28:51] <twice2> dmess: quit sobbing abut it, you'll get your oats soggy
[04:30:48] <dmess> been eatin them that way for yrs now.... my mom still has my model in the garage...
[04:32:02] <dmess> and a solar powred watercraft i built..... and some early snow boards.... and..
[04:33:00] <twice2> ok have fun
[04:34:38] <dmess> thats why i got into cnc machine tools.... make em do what we need to.......
[04:36:22] <gezar> hmm, ive got an exciting melody down, gonna have to get masternode back up finally I guess
[04:52:57] <gezar> any one awake to test something for me?
[05:19:21] <renesis> so um
[05:19:29] <renesis> is workspaces in emc broken?
[05:19:31] <renesis> or what
[05:19:47] <renesis> like, i home axis, right, so my g53 is fixed
[05:20:00] <renesis> i set a g55 X offset
[05:20:31] <renesis> g92 x0 with spindle over g55 origin
[05:20:42] <renesis> so i move over about 6"
[05:20:47] <renesis> switch to g56
[05:20:54] <renesis> g92 x0
[05:21:07] <renesis> switch to g55 again
[05:21:23] <renesis> it reals -.9" or something for X
[05:21:28] <renesis> so its broken?
[05:22:28] <renesis> workspaces are supposed to ref off g53, why would changing my g56 origin affect my g55 origin?
[05:23:18] <renesis> pls halp
[05:26:34] <renesis> anyone?
[05:27:01] <renesis> wait
[05:27:23] <renesis> fuck does the output not reflect current workspace or something?
[05:27:58] <cradek> you don't understand how g92 works - it moves all the coordinate systems
[05:28:55] <cradek> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode_main.html#sub:Coordinate-Systems
[05:31:09] <cradek> you set G5x offsets with G10
[05:31:18] <cradek> or much better, use touch-off in AXIS
[05:31:45] <renesis> You can set the offsets of the nine program coordinate systems using G10 L2 Pn (n is the number of the coordinate system) with values for the axes in terms of the absolute coordinate system. See Section [.].
[05:31:49] <renesis> ok
[05:31:56] <renesis> whats L2?
[05:31:59] <cradek> really, use touch-off
[05:32:01] <renesis> nm ill look it up
[05:32:12] <toastydeath> lol the hard way
[05:32:14] <cradek> really :-)
[05:32:19] <renesis> no i wont touch those button until
[05:32:34] <renesis> until you put a warning on home button
[05:32:47] <cradek> load up systems.ngc, it's a nice demo to play with
[05:32:57] <toastydeath> lol what? why do you need a warning on home
[05:33:12] <renesis> becase its right next to touch off
[05:33:39] <cradek> touch off is also "End" on the keyboard
[05:33:56] <renesis> you hit home instead of touch off with soft limits and your setup is fucked
[05:34:14] <renesis> the overide limits apperently doesnt mean the soft limits
[05:34:21] <cradek> nope
[05:34:26] <renesis> yeah end is right next to home =)
[05:34:37] <cradek> override lets you move off limit switches
[05:35:05] <renesis> so what do you do if you accidentally home in the middle of your workspace?
[05:35:30] <cradek> you mean then soft limits don't let you jog back to the right home location?
[05:35:41] <renesis> uh huh
[05:35:44] <cradek> there's no "unhome" so you just have to restart emc
[05:35:49] <renesis> yup
[05:36:08] <cradek> and then order some home switches :-)
[05:36:16] <renesis> so a 'are you sure you really want to home the axis? [yes] [no]' dialog would be nice
[05:36:41] <cradek> hmmm
[05:37:00] <toastydeath> other controls handle home like a different run mode
[05:37:02] <toastydeath> so that there's no mistake
[05:37:03] <renesis> hell it would have saved me 20min of setup, on multiple occassions
[05:37:11] <cradek> huh??
[05:37:20] <cradek> all coordinate systems are saved across multiple runs of emc
[05:37:21] <toastydeath> cradek: are you huh'ing to me, or the renesis
[05:37:37] <toastydeath> he's saying the home knocks the setup off the table
[05:37:38] <renesis> i dont have switches so homing isnt exact
[05:38:03] <renesis> so when i lose home, all coord is trash
[05:38:09] <cradek> oh, yuck, so you set up a lot of points that are lost next time?
[05:38:18] <renesis> yes
[05:38:44] <cradek> if you want to keep those setups you should come up with a reproducible home location
[05:38:52] <toastydeath> needs some switches.
[05:38:54] <cradek> even a wiggler and some feature on the table
[05:39:01] <renesis> jog home
[05:39:01] <cradek> but yeah, switches are better
[05:39:06] <renesis> and turn the machine off
[05:39:21] <cradek> sure, if you can assume it doesn't move
[05:39:27] <renesis> anyway, i dont mind the soft limits
[05:39:39] <renesis> id never have problems if there was a nag dialog on home
[05:39:44] <gene_h> and you can't assume that with modern 8 microstep drives
[05:40:12] <renesis> im fine with close enough, step off wont kill me
[05:40:25] <gene_h> could be 4
[05:40:35] <renesis> its setup to 8
[05:40:55] <cradek> renesis: on some of my axes I have a rough axis position I can see, along with a mark (like handwheel) on the motor shaft
[05:40:57] <renesis> hehe, its alot quiter with microstepping, no more tron sound effects =(
[05:41:04] <cradek> this is fairly reproducible home by eye then
[05:41:38] <gene_h> I should have said 4 either way, the drivers init to step 0 at powerup, and you could have been at step 4 when powered down.
[05:42:27] <renesis> not an issue
[05:43:30] <renesis> homing with no nag directly adjacent to touch off on the kbd and gui using soft limits is an issue
[05:44:09] <gene_h> I tried it, and gradually lost the position, but TBT, probably less than my ability to pioperly locate the next part on the table without a pallet holder of some kind.
[05:44:21] <renesis> like, damn at least give me quick-keys to set workspace offsets no dialog if youre gonna give me the option of screwing myself no dialog
[05:44:40] <cradek> renesis: there is a key for touch-off-to-zero
[05:44:55] <cradek> control-end maybe? I'd have to look (check the key ref in the Help menu)
[05:45:01] <toastydeath> i am kind of intrested in why "home" is a button
[05:45:02] <gene_h> what key?
[05:45:03] <renesis> for each workspace?
[05:45:14] <renesis> or to popup the dialog or to touch off current
[05:45:32] <renesis> yeah i dont see the use of home button
[05:45:42] <renesis> you use it once and then its just in the way
[05:45:57] <renesis> in my case its like the PROJECT DEATH HAHA button
[05:45:59] <toastydeath> well i use it all the time, but i don't want it to be a button
[05:46:07] <cradek> I don't follow - if not a button what would it be?
[05:46:13] <renesis> in the menus
[05:46:18] <gene_h> Yeah, but you ALWAYS use it once. Per axis, at powerup
[05:46:20] <toastydeath> all the machine controls i've used, the control has a few run modes
[05:46:27] <cradek> yuck, menus are for things you almost never use :-)
[05:46:34] <gene_h> amen
[05:46:35] <renesis> like home
[05:46:41] <toastydeath> edit, auto/mem, mdi, jog, rapid, mpg, home
[05:47:10] <toastydeath> like on Haas there's a row of softkeys that put the machine into diffent modes
[05:47:17] <toastydeath> on fanuc it's a knob
[05:47:18] <cradek> I hate too many modes
[05:47:21] <renesis> heheh <3 haas controllers
[05:47:37] <toastydeath> but the advantage is that you can have different contexts for the commands
[05:47:42] <renesis> okay well suggestion:
[05:47:51] <cradek> on my bp I jog, then I try to turn the wheel, nothing happens. I have to stab at the crappy membrane keyboard until it says KNOB on the crappy little display
[05:47:54] <toastydeath> and also you can't move an axis unless you want to
[05:47:56] <renesis> nag on the HOME button, because youre fucking soft limit users
[05:48:01] <cradek> and THEN, finally, the knob works
[05:48:20] <toastydeath> cradek: that's a problem with your hardware, not the UI
[05:48:29] <cradek> well, I disagree
[05:48:37] <toastydeath> if my keyboard breaks and the "a" key no longer works, i can't complain about how "a" is useless
[05:49:00] <cradek> no I have to look at the screen and take my eyes away from what I want to actually do
[05:49:20] <cradek> the membrane key, which can't be found by touch, has to be pressed several times, while watching the display
[05:49:28] <cradek> when the display is just right, you can go back to what you're doing
[05:49:35] <cradek> it's terrible UI, not a hardware problem
[05:50:03] <toastydeath> uh
[05:50:06] <toastydeath> that's horrible logic
[05:50:19] <toastydeath> you mean to tell me you hit keys on your control without looking?
[05:50:34] <renesis> i dunno the hass did sim and tool/workspace management and jog and etc
[05:50:38] <cradek> I can sure as hell turn the jog wheel without looking at it
[05:50:42] <cradek> a jog wheel is good UI
[05:50:47] <renesis> it would be fucked up to have all on one screen
[05:50:49] <gene_h> and a keyboard i'd see how well in bounces off the bottom of the traash barrel
[05:50:49] <toastydeath> cradek: i think you're not understanding what i am saying
[05:51:00] <cradek> that makes two of us - let's just stop
[05:51:11] <toastydeath> right-o
[05:51:21] <cradek> cheers
[05:51:27] <renesis> maybe an option just to remove home button al together, if no nag
[05:51:28] <cradek> there are as many ways as there are people
[05:51:46] <toastydeath> well, no, there's two ways - what the machine controls do across the board, and what emc does
[05:51:49] <toastydeath> but whatevs
[05:51:59] <gene_h> Chris, can you put a glove on a std keyboard and use that?
[05:52:22] <cradek> gene_h: it's not using emc yet, it's still the way it came
[05:52:36] <gene_h> I know I've got to get some of those for mine to keep the swarf out.
[05:53:00] <gene_h> totally customn keypad then? Bummer...
[05:53:10] <cradek> yeah I'll replace the control one of these days
[05:53:17] <gene_h> :)
[05:53:24] <cradek> emc's jogging is so much better
[05:53:40] <cradek> a key for each direction, and a wheel that works whenever you aren't using the keys
[05:54:00] <gene_h> The comment about the shoemakerrs kids comes to mind long about here... *-)
[05:54:01] <cradek> and configurable jog increments!
[05:54:03] <cradek> wheeeee
[05:54:18] <cradek> the bp has one incremental jog: .0001"
[05:54:23] <cradek> I shit you not
[05:54:37] <cradek> gene_h: no kidding :-)
[05:54:46] <gene_h> yup, I have three search wheels from a tape editor I'm going to see if I can make work when it warms up out there.
[05:55:21] <cradek> gene_h: that sounds like another good UI (another thing where you don't have to look at it to run it)
[05:56:08] <gene_h> And if possible, I'd like to make them active while running so they can put an offset into some var in the program, like the diameter of a hole being circle milled.
[05:56:58] <cradek> you could have a wheel control an analog value in hal (displayed on a vcp) that you later read with whatever that gcode is
[05:57:37] <gene_h> The are dual dial units, center dial is a finger socket regular jog, out dial is a zero center varriable speed either way driver when its running a vcr. 8 speeds IIRC.
[05:57:57] <cradek> gene_h: what kind of signal do they produce?
[05:58:39] <gene_h> I believe a byte wide hex, they are mechanical so I don't think they are any kind of a grey code.
[05:59:11] <cradek> oh just some switches? sounds easy (if you have enough inputs on your system)
[05:59:31] <cradek> surely the finger wheel part is quadrature?
[05:59:33] <gene_h> That's why I bought another dual parport card :)
[06:00:15] <gene_h> Maybe, I'd have to look at the schematics again now, its been about 3 months & at my age I have CRS.
[06:01:35] <gene_h> Question though, is this something I should opto-isolate from shop floor static?
[06:02:19] <cradek> in your place, I'd figure that since optos would cost you much more than a replacement parport card, and add a lot of complexity, I'd try it without first
[06:02:57] <gene_h> That was my thinking too, the dual parport cards are about a $20 bill.
[06:03:05] <gene_h> cheep
[06:03:19] <cradek> tap 5v from a usb port, find some pullup resistors, wire up the switches, call it done
[06:04:13] <gene_h> Isn't there a pullup on the parport? There used to be year ago.
[06:04:23] <SkullWorks_PGAB> chris what control is on your BP now?
[06:04:29] <gene_h> s/year/years
[06:04:31] <cradek> SkullWorks_PGAB: boss 8
[06:04:46] <cradek> gene_h: not sure, maybe they even differ, there are so many parports
[06:05:28] <cradek> SkullWorks_PGAB: UI = 2x20 lcd screen, membrane buttons, estop button, jog knob
[06:05:29] <gene_h> I'd have to look that up, these cards come with zip docs of course.
[06:05:55] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I used to run a Series II NMTB 30 with a Bandit control
[06:05:58] <cradek> SkullWorks_PGAB: anyone who says commercial controls are all better than EMC has not used this control :-)
[06:06:18] <SkullWorks_PGAB> I here that
[06:06:25] <cradek> SkullWorks_PGAB: that's the slightly older stepper models right?
[06:06:59] <SkullWorks_PGAB> not sure - know the rapid was 100ipm
[06:07:08] <cradek> yeah the steppers were that
[06:07:20] <cradek> mine does 250 rapids which is very nice
[06:07:27] <SkullWorks_PGAB> no cutter radius comp
[06:07:57] <SkullWorks_PGAB> (optional at the time for a huge price)
[06:08:04] <cradek> heh
[06:09:06] <cradek> the jog knob is fixed .002/click which is too coarse to touch off, but way too fine to get anywhere in a reasonable time
[06:09:21] <cradek> that combined with the fixed .0001 incremental jog is all you get
[06:09:27] <SkullWorks_PGAB> X/Y DRO with a vernier scale in the Quill ( it did not move the knee)
[06:09:32] <gene_h> Yes, acc to my amiga 2000 manual, there is 5 volts with a 47 ohm limiter available on pin 14 of the parport. And its labeled 'centronics'
[06:09:57] <cradek> gene_h: that's news to me!
[06:10:31] <gene_h> You might measure some of the ones we're using now.
[06:11:58] <cradek> goodnight folks
[06:12:25] <gene_h> Yeah, about sleepy time here in WV too, goodnight.
[06:13:38] <fenn> renesis: you could just bind the home key to something else
[06:15:01] <fenn> - root_window.bind("<Home>", commands.home_axis)
[06:15:08] <fenn> + root_window.bind("<Home>", None)
[06:15:40] <renesis> so touch off button is broken?
[06:15:47] <fenn> an control-home too
[06:16:05] <renesis> okay, i go to a position, machine is in g54
[06:16:15] <renesis> i touch off, tell it to set G55
[06:16:28] <renesis> it possibly zeros G54
[06:16:41] <renesis> i switch to G55, and its like at 7" or something
[06:16:52] <fenn> what does this have to do with homing?
[06:17:03] <renesis> nothing im over that
[06:17:12] <renesis> now im using touch off like cradek said
[06:17:17] <fenn> oh
[06:17:22] <renesis> and this is what its doing
[06:17:31] <renesis> which is what i remember it doing last time
[06:18:12] <renesis> so i think something is messed up, i dunno if its touch off, coordinate system, axis coord display, or what
[06:18:26] <fenn> touch off sets g54, which wouldn't affect the g55 location
[06:18:39] <renesis> then why does it have a dropdown
[06:18:46] <fenn> perhaps touch off should change the g92 coordinates instead? i dont know
[06:18:56] <renesis> with values labeled G54 thru G59.3
[06:19:01] <renesis> and also Pn
[06:19:12] <renesis> so dropdown is broken?
[06:20:50] <fenn> it appears to do something to g55 when i select g55
[06:20:51] <renesis> so i have to set workspace offsets in absolute values from home origin with G10 L2 Pn if i wanna use anything other than g54?
[06:21:06] <renesis> well its not zeroing it
[06:21:26] <renesis> because i G55 in mdi, the display switches, but its not zero
[06:21:43] <fenn> work offsets never made any sense to me honestly
[06:21:51] <renesis> in general or in emc?
[06:21:59] <fenn> i've only used emc
[06:22:07] <renesis> because in general i can prob come up with 5 or 10 reasons
[06:23:25] <fenn> i dont have a mill to test touch off with either
[06:23:27] <renesis> like, i dunno but this is basic CNC controller stuff, even the fucked up 80s digital UI bridgeport controller at school does offsets better than emc
[06:23:34] <cradek> touch-off only changes the system you tell it to change
[06:23:51] <renesis> well then its broken
[06:24:01] <cradek> no, I'm pretty sure it's not
[06:24:02] <renesis> because it didnt zero the system i told it to
[06:24:08] <renesis> im in G54
[06:24:24] <renesis> i use touch off to set G55 to 0
[06:24:30] <renesis> i switch to G55
[06:24:34] <renesis> its not zero
[06:24:38] <renesis> what am i doing wrong
[06:24:57] <cradek> you probably also have a g92 offset
[06:25:32] <cradek> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?CoordinateSystems
[06:25:39] <renesis> yes ty i read
[06:25:49] <renesis> btw whats L word in G10
[06:25:49] <cradek> clear g92 with MDI G92.1
[06:26:17] <cradek> it has to be 2, I think it was for compatibility with ... something
[06:26:26] <cradek> the P is what specifies which system
[06:27:10] <renesis> ok it was the g92 thing
[06:27:10] <renesis> ty
[06:27:41] <cradek> G92 moves all the systems by the same amount
[06:28:01] <cradek> it's neat if you have several parts at the different systems - with one G92 you can shift all of their origins
[06:28:15] <cradek> (but usually I don't use G92)
[06:28:57] <cradek> have you seen the systems.ngc program? it's nice for experimenting
[06:29:03] <eric_U> why would one input for limit switches handicap your machine? sez so in the wiki
[06:29:16] <cradek> load it and move the systems around with touch off, and you can immediately see what happens
[06:29:18] <eric_U> truth is, I don't care which limit I'm on
[06:29:48] <fenn> but when g92 is active and you do a touch off, you dont get what you asked for
[06:30:03] <cradek> eric_U: if you have separate inputs, emc can keep you from moving the wrong way if you're one a limit
[06:30:45] <renesis> whats systems.ngc
[06:31:10] <cradek> renesis: one of the distributed gcode programs, or at least I think it's there
[06:31:28] <renesis> k i check
[06:31:42] <renesis> i want to make pcb and play gtr2 and sleep
[06:32:03] <fenn> that is neat
[06:32:12] <renesis> http://www.darkertechnologies.com/image/audiosam-07.png
[06:32:18] <cradek> fenn: which?
[06:32:23] <fenn> systems.ngc
[06:32:28] <renesis> you want to make love with my layout, yes?
[06:32:29] <cradek> ah thanks
[06:32:57] <fenn> why is usb connector in the middle of the board?
[06:33:25] <renesis> its a dev kit
[06:33:43] <renesis> the connector is actually on the module that plugs into the board
[06:34:03] <renesis> http://www.olimex.com/dev/sam7-h256.html
[06:34:15] <SkullWorks_PGAB> G10 L2 Px is for defining a work offset. L1 would be for changing a tool table value (not supported by EMC2 IIRC)
[06:34:30] <renesis> i might use it for power from usb, but im prob gonna wire it up to the stk500 for power
[06:34:43] <renesis> ooh
[06:34:53] <cradek> SkullWorks_PGAB: I think some controls have even more coordinate systems at L20
[06:34:54] <renesis> so its directly editing the offset table
[06:35:07] <renesis> the haas had a ton
[06:35:44] <renesis> maybe 36 or 99, get confused, had alot of tooling offset values too
[06:36:31] <SkullWorks_PGAB> well there is also a G54.1 Pxx on some controls - allows 99 additional work offsets
[06:37:00] <SkullWorks_PGAB> used mainly on machines with pallet changers
[06:37:03] <renesis> was maybe it
[06:37:11] <renesis> i have the manual in my closet somewhere
[06:37:23] <renesis> heh, prob easier to just find online tho
[06:38:02] <SkullWorks_PGAB> but Haas has a bunch too - and different ways to access them depending on control build date
[06:38:15] <fenn> yay for software
[06:38:24] <SkullWorks_PGAB> one of ours uses G140
[06:38:24] <fenn> updates
[06:38:31] <renesis> it had pages of tools and offsets
[06:38:43] <renesis> one of them had 99 values
[06:38:49] <renesis> maybe more =\
[06:39:56] <renesis> also erotic: http://www.darkertechnologies.com/image/audiosam-06.png (schema)
[06:40:43] <renesis> heh
[06:40:56] <renesis> too bad eeepc doesnt have a parport
[06:41:10] <renesis> would make a neat controller
[06:41:21] <fenn> it probably has terrible realtime performance
[06:41:37] <renesis> 900MHz capable
[06:42:15] <renesis> they underclock to 650MHz tho
[06:42:20] <fenn> irrelevant
[06:42:22] <renesis> i think for power saving
[06:42:42] <renesis> why
[06:42:57] <renesis> emc is allergic to intel chipsets and procs or something?
[06:43:04] <fenn> realtime latency can easily be screwed up by power management features that 'borrow' the cpu
[06:43:13] <renesis> turn them off?
[06:43:17] <fenn> if you can
[06:43:20] <SkullWorks_PGAB> best to
[06:43:43] <renesis> you can disable in bios or kernel
[06:44:18] <fenn> http://www.rtai.dk/cgi-bin/gratiswiki.pl?Latency_Killer
[06:44:58] <SkullWorks_PGAB> shared mem integrated video is a real killer
[06:45:07] <renesis> CPUFreq/PowerMgmt - ACPI
[06:45:16] <renesis> you can turn acpi off in the bios or kernel
[06:45:34] <fenn> sure but sometimes there are other things that you cant turn off
[06:46:09] <fenn> SkullWorks_PGAB: i have some boards with integrated video. if i dont run an X server they are fine
[06:46:24] <fenn> if i do, latencies of ~1ms
[06:47:25] <fenn> so i will probably just run them remotely
[06:48:58] <SkullWorks_PGAB> yeah thats about all you can do
[06:54:51] <renesis> okay
[06:55:09] <renesis> so if i go g92 x2.
[06:55:18] <renesis> itll move all origins up 2 inches?
[06:55:44] <renesis> or no maybe it will move the origin down to inches because it specifies current location
[06:56:10] <renesis> this could make paneling pcb easier
[06:56:52] <toastydeath> i believe 2. moves it up two inches
[06:57:01] <toastydeath> you should check just to be sure.
[06:58:35] <renesis> yeah ima test
[07:00:05] <renesis> is the time estimate in properties usually accurate?
[07:00:29] <renesis> * renesis writes down current time
[07:00:34] <toastydeath> it should be
[07:00:47] <toastydeath> the control knows how long each line will take to run
[07:01:43] <toastydeath> on mills things always seem to take longer than they should
[07:01:58] <fenn> it ignores accelerations and feed override
[07:02:46] <fenn> and of course wait for input lines
[07:02:46] <toastydeath> that shouldn't be an issue for a feed of like 10 ipm or less
[07:03:30] <renesis> depends on how many changes of trajectory
[07:04:53] <renesis> BACKLASH=.003 seems to be helping
[08:37:34] <fenn> * fenn reads a b&s screw mchine manual
[08:39:49] <fenn> wonder how long wobble broaching has been around
[08:41:42] <toastydeath> 90-100 years
[08:42:13] <fenn> i dont see any mention of it in this operators manual (yet)
[08:43:02] <fenn> the floating holder looks just like what they use to hold wobble broaches though
[08:43:21] <toastydeath> cept it moves around and also is not on an angle
[08:47:14] <fenn> no it only moves around when you loosen the clamp screws
[08:47:29] <toastydeath> right
[08:47:32] <toastydeath> wait
[08:47:39] <toastydeath> which kind of floating holder are you talking about
[08:47:56] <fenn> looks kinda like a stubby pitchfork
[08:48:02] <toastydeath> oh
[08:48:04] <fenn> the two side tines are clamp screws
[08:48:10] <toastydeath> yeah, and the center is toolholder
[08:48:33] <toastydeath> i thought you meant the floating holders that actually stay floating
[08:48:44] <toastydeath> for reamers/etc
[08:48:55] <fenn> this says they're used for reamers
[08:49:10] <toastydeath> yeah, but you line those up and lock them
[08:49:18] <toastydeath> there's another style that remains floating when it's driving the reamer
[08:49:19] <fenn> right
[08:49:42] <toastydeath> is the book cool?
[08:50:29] <fenn> its your typical late 1930's technical book
[08:50:32] <toastydeath> lol
[08:50:39] <toastydeath> paid by the word eh
[08:50:43] <fenn> i like how they write in plain english
[08:50:56] <toastydeath> oh, not what i'm thinking then
[08:51:10] <fenn> no, old stuff usually is much more straightforward
[08:51:51] <fenn> lots of pictures and drawings
[08:52:17] <toastydeath> that's hot
[08:52:19] <fenn> they dont quite look like photos, you know, like photos on lathes.co.uk
[08:52:26] <toastydeath> technical renderings
[08:52:34] <toastydeath> or whatever they're called
[08:53:09] <fenn> how do they do that? airbrush or darkroom techniques?
[08:53:32] <toastydeath> no clue
[08:53:57] <toastydeath> if i had any artistic talent i'd be smoking pot in an art class somewhere talking about postmodernism
[08:54:45] <fenn> nah if you're any good you dont need to go to art school
[08:55:09] <toastydeath> well yeah but all the art kids i know went to art school to smoke pot and talk about postmodernism
[08:55:13] <fenn> art school is if you are highly motivated but no good
[08:55:15] <toastydeath> not necessarily learn anything
[08:55:41] <fenn> or an excuse to smoke pot and get loans/parental approval
[08:55:46] <toastydeath> tru
[08:57:11] <fenn> are there many cnc lathes with 'balance turning'
[08:57:39] <fenn> 2 parallel axes going in opposite directions, to reduce deflection
[08:57:48] <toastydeath> any 4 axis lathe will do it
[08:58:00] <toastydeath> and some single axis machines for high production use balance turning tools
[08:58:04] <toastydeath> on a single turret
[08:58:07] <toastydeath> er 2 axis
[08:58:25] <toastydeath> i wouldn't exactly call it "commonplace" though.
[08:59:35] <fenn> shouldn't you be in bed?
[08:59:38] <toastydeath> you can stick a balance or quad cutting toolholder in any cnc machine if you want to do it
[08:59:42] <toastydeath> probably, why
[08:59:47] <fenn> * fenn shrugs
[09:00:39] <fenn> i've wasted the last week because of my messed up circadian rhythm
[09:00:40] <toastydeath> i was actually drooling over Okuma twin turret machines on ebay earlier
[09:00:51] <toastydeath> haha, i don't have a real healthy sleep schedule
[09:04:34] <toastydeath> ty irc for making us some kind of wingless bats
[09:04:40] <toastydeath> soon, echolocation
[09:04:54] <fenn> could you lap an index table with a dished face on one of the gears?
[09:05:16] <fenn> and then use that as a worm gear (with some kind of cycloidal profile)
[09:05:29] <toastydeath> i don't see what you want?
[09:05:36] <fenn> a really accurate worm gear
[09:05:58] <fenn> so the worm gear is 'automatically generated'
[09:06:17] <toastydeath> i'm not seeing it, i suppose
[09:06:33] <toastydeath> sry
[09:06:41] <fenn> one lapped surface is like a bevel gear
[09:06:46] <fenn> the other is the negative surface
[09:07:20] <fenn> then the worm drives the bevel gear in the finished product
[09:07:43] <toastydeath> i'm not sure that's an inherently self-generating process but i guess it would work
[09:07:50] <toastydeath> at least to an accuracy anyone reasonable cared about
[09:09:05] <fenn> or you could drive it with a bevel gear i guess
[09:09:08] <toastydeath> when you lap worms/gears together you still have to map the gear out
[09:09:18] <toastydeath> and change the pressure based on the error of individual teeth
[09:09:47] <toastydeath> but you can do that, it just doesn't work the same as a true autogeneration
[09:10:01] <fenn> well, that's not what i'm interested in really
[09:10:18] <toastydeath> what's the end goal, just an accurate rotab?
[09:10:32] <fenn> yes, something with a continuous movement
[09:10:40] <toastydeath> that would do it to a pretty good level
[09:10:55] <fenn> better than just lapping a worm to a worm wheel?
[09:11:13] <toastydeath> probably not.
[09:11:36] <toastydeath> if you can lap two components together, to be used together
[09:11:42] <toastydeath> that's always going to be the best option.
[09:12:07] <fenn> how do you lap two components together without getting abrasive grit stuck in everything?
[09:12:22] <toastydeath> lappable stuff is usually hardened
[09:12:29] <toastydeath> so the abrasive does
[09:12:31] <toastydeath> 't stick
[09:12:45] <toastydeath> and then you go back and lap it with pure vehicle with no abrasive, to try and wear the last of the abrasive out of the part
[09:12:57] <toastydeath> if there is any in the first place.
[09:13:08] <toastydeath> that's the theory anyway, i haven't done it.
[09:13:26] <toastydeath> folks like moore made laps in sets, and lapped them to each other
[09:13:29] <toastydeath> then used them on the hard parts
[09:13:40] <toastydeath> then finish lapped the "rough" lapped parts.
[09:13:44] <toastydeath> with each other.
[09:13:57] <toastydeath> the 1440 index, for example.
[09:14:16] <fenn> so maybe it just doesnt matter if there's a little abrasive left
[09:14:28] <toastydeath> it will matter if the part is soft, not if it's hard
[09:14:50] <toastydeath> but i DO have to go to bed now =(
[09:15:12] <toastydeath> so goodnight sir
[09:15:23] <fenn> enjoy your five winks
[12:05:00] <renesis> 04:02 <+renesis> http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=index1kf0.jpg
[12:05:01] <renesis> 04:02 <+renesis> http://img512.imageshack.us/my.php?image=index5ai0.jpg
[12:05:01] <renesis> 04:02 <+renesis> http://img253.imageshack.us/my.php?image=index6nm8.jpg
[12:05:12] <renesis> long sleeves + lathe = dead
[12:05:18] <renesis> nsfw or children
[12:05:27] <renesis> unless they are like, children who machine
[12:05:35] <renesis> or your work is a shop
[16:51:03] <skunkworks> yeck
[16:51:18] <skunkworks> * skunkworks is just glad he has all of his fingers..
[16:56:36] <cradek> I know when not to look...
[16:57:46] <skunkworks> your better than me.. I have to click on links.
[16:57:53] <skunkworks> ocd
[16:58:35] <Jymmmm> I couldn't get #2 or #3 to load
[16:58:40] <archivist> a warning would have been nice
[16:59:39] <Jymmmm> Warning... bah. Consider it your annual safety lesson
[17:00:07] <archivist> heh that was the skinned finger from a week ago
[17:00:44] <Jymmmm> archivist: Ok, consider it your no-interactive annual safety lesson.
[17:00:52] <Jymmmm> non-interactive
[17:02:05] <Jymmmm> We all start off doing things safely at first, then "get comfortable" over the years, I think it's a good thing to have a "reality check" periodically.
[17:02:46] <cradek> I periodically shoot things across the room - that's about it
[17:02:55] <cradek> so far, they've always missed me
[17:03:28] <archivist> a few broken nails and minor cuts keeps you aware
[17:03:43] <Jymmmm> cradek: Have you seen those kevlar shop bibs?
[17:04:20] <skunkworks> I have done the most damage to myself with manual tools
[17:04:28] <archivist> beard wrapped up in dremel is entertaining
[17:04:46] <micges> hi all
[17:05:03] <Jymmmm> archivist: Do I even want to know how you managed that?
[17:05:06] <skunkworks> hi
[17:06:25] <cradek> Jymmmm: no, I have a denim apron, but I only wear it to keep oil off my clothes - it's probably no good for safety (might even make it worse)
[17:06:55] <skunkworks> I guess I did manage to take the tip of my finger off (just a bit of skin - very lucky) in a jointer planer. I was probably 14.
[17:07:03] <archivist> often safety stuff introduces issues
[17:07:10] <Jymmmm> cradek: Yeah, there suppose to prevent flying metal from penetrating vital organs.
[17:07:59] <archivist> but adds loose clothing
[17:08:19] <cradek> I need to get some real safety glasses made - that's the biggest problem I have
[17:08:28] <cradek> I have goggles but they're uncomfortable so I only wear them when grinding etc
[17:11:08] <skunkworks> I think out of all the tools I have used.. table saws are still the scariest.
[17:11:29] <Jymmmm> I bought a full face shield, the safety googles interfiers with my glasses
[17:11:49] <cradek> Jymmmm: I have a shield too, but I'm even less likely to wear it
[17:12:11] <Jymmmm> skunkworks: agreed
[17:12:12] <cradek> I did find goggles that fit well over my (relatively small) glasses
[17:12:33] <Jymmmm> cradek: They kept bugging me right behind the ears.
[17:12:46] <cradek> glasses are a pain
[17:12:54] <skunkworks> I wears ski goggles over my glasses.. They are comfortable..
[17:13:00] <skunkworks> :)
[17:13:19] <Jymmmm> skunkworks: the holes are too small so my glasses fog up =)
[17:14:07] <Jymmmm> This works and is really oversized too http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=46526
[17:15:19] <skunkworks> I would think I would fog that up..
[17:15:28] <cradek> I guess I could just wear my motorcycle helmet
[17:15:51] <Jymmmm> LOL http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94296
[17:16:06] <cradek> EXTERMINATE!
[17:17:27] <skunkworks> dr who?
[17:18:06] <Jymmmm> skunkworks: http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/cubegoodies/8cff/
[17:19:07] <skunkworks> hmm - might have to get one of those.. :)
[17:20:22] <Jymmmm> skunkworks: =)
[17:22:22] <Jymmmm> I want a couple of these http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/tools/6d98/
[17:25:12] <cradek> ooh, blue laser pointer, only ... $900
[17:25:32] <Jymmmm> url?
[17:25:56] <cradek> http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/lights/896a/
[17:27:17] <Jymmmm> green http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/lights/5a47/
[17:28:19] <eric_U> I thought green laser pointers were illegal
[17:28:33] <Jymmmm> only if you point them to aircraft
[17:37:32] <Jymmmm> http://www.sti.com/oshaguide/index.htm
[19:28:36] <jlmjvm> jepler:has anyone had a problem with tool offsets after the latest update?mine dont seem to be working anymore
[19:35:18] <jmkasunich> what version? 2.2.3?
[19:35:26] <jmkasunich> exactly what isn't working?
[19:45:51] <archivist> alex_joni, 15 minutes to go on that robot arm and getting to the amount of money I have loose in my pocket :((
[20:24:51] <Gamma-X> hello all
[20:27:52] <Jymmmm> * Jymmmm grabs the sledge hammer and breaks open archivist's piggy bank!
[20:28:11] <archivist> I have no bank
[20:28:28] <Jymmmm> not any more ;)
[20:28:34] <archivist> * archivist is a poor clockmaker
[20:29:00] <Jymmmm> archivist Well... make more than a clock a year
[20:29:33] <archivist> hmm we need to kick the boss here to make more money
[20:29:45] <archivist> its pathetic here
[20:30:21] <jmkasunich> archivist: 15 mins have passed.... what happened?
[20:30:33] <archivist> it went for £155
[20:30:43] <jmkasunich> to someone other than you I guess?
[20:30:51] <archivist> yup http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280195189979&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=018
[20:31:03] <archivist> only 5 miles from me
[20:38:12] <alex_joni> archivist: guess it's too late?
[20:38:18] <alex_joni> * alex_joni just came online
[20:38:52] <archivist> ah ok yup beyond pocket money
[20:39:24] <alex_joni> too bad :)
[20:39:44] <archivist> I need a better paying job for toys I want
[20:41:25] <BigJohnT> that's only $300
[20:41:53] <BigJohnT> or 4 tanks of gas in my truck
[20:42:29] <gezar> all be damned, im learning cpp accually, and i can read emc source much better now :)
[20:42:36] <Gamma-X> i need to buy a tv.
[20:42:50] <Gamma-X> im debating on a big lcd tv or a realy nice projector.
[20:43:10] <BigJohnT> cpp?
[20:43:31] <gezar> c++
[20:44:10] <BigJohnT> ok
[20:44:21] <gezar> dont get mad at me once I put my finger into emc
[20:44:39] <gezar> whoot, sorta exciting accually
[20:44:45] <BigJohnT> I'm getting my list of requests ready for you
[20:45:01] <gezar> conversational is going in
[20:45:19] <gezar> if I can do it legaly
[20:45:25] <BigJohnT> for what machine?
[20:45:38] <gezar> lathe and mill, basic functions
[20:45:38] <BigJohnT> from what machine
[20:46:00] <BigJohnT> like RAPID X0 Y0
[20:46:12] <BigJohnT> LINE X2 Y2
[20:46:33] <gezar> no, like conversational move, would open a box up, you tell it where to move to, how to move, then it inserts a line of code into the program
[20:47:16] <gezar> something like g9001(x,y,p,g,f,,,,,,,,,,) and then that pulls the macro that knows what to do withthat
[20:47:31] <BigJohnT> Ok
[20:48:02] <gezar> conversational is not a user readable gcode line readable format, however it is a graphical representation of the move
[20:48:03] <BigJohnT> thought you meant like conversational like Anilam and others use on some controllers
[20:48:28] <gezar> no
[20:49:32] <gezar> I think that aspects of axis would make for a super fantastic conversational method too, cause it can draw the path on the fly, so as the user inputs data, the "picture" changes, versus having a fixed picture of what can be done
[20:50:16] <BigJohnT> cool
[20:50:25] <gezar> does that make sense?
[20:51:16] <jepler> jlmjvm: you didn't say what version you were having trouble in, but I reviewed the differences between 2.2.2 and 2.2.3 and there's only one tool-length related fix: on metric systems the tool offset was treated as wrong by a factor of 25.4 in the preview in axis (the actual program ran correctly).
[20:51:51] <gezar> Imean if your looking at a conversational move path for example, you get a picture of a line with an end point, an option to make it a rapid or a feed, and how to do the move, straight line, move x first, move y first, ..... but if the picture adapts to input that would be easier to see the representation of the move
[21:05:40] <owhite> Hey people, when I try to run something out of a .hal file with the command "loadusr -W pyvcp -c iotest iotest.xml" I get "Waiting for component 'pyvcp' to become ready...."
[21:05:46] <owhite> any suggestions?
[21:06:21] <owhite> and, what does -c do? I was able to see any documentation using "halcmd show loadusr"
[21:08:23] <cradek> the -c is an argument to pyvcp; see man pyvcp for that
[21:08:54] <jepler> also see 'man halcmd' for a description of the flags for loadusr
[21:09:06] <jepler> hint: there's a relationship between the -c flag to pyvcp and the flag you need to give to loadusr
[21:09:39] <owhite> think that's why I'm getting the "waiting for component" comment?
[21:09:55] <jepler> yep
[21:10:07] <owhite> I'll RTFM.
[21:18:56] <jlmjvm> jepler:running 2.2.3
[21:19:00] <jepler> since you gave the component the name 'iotest' (pyvcp -c iotest), you need to tell halcmd to wait for the component named iotest: 'loadusr -Wn iotest -c iotest iotest.xml' (whew)
[21:21:20] <cradek> jlmjvm: did you say what the problem is? if so I missed it
[21:23:36] <jlmjvm> doesnt appear to be reading the offset
[21:23:57] <owhite> but arent I making a call to pyvcp? 'loadusr -Wn iotest pyvcp something er other'?
[21:24:23] <cradek> jlmjvm: you have to give me a lot more to go on if I'm to guess what you're doing wrong :-)
[21:24:54] <cradek> say what you do, say what you see, say how that differs from what you expect
[21:26:40] <owhite> "loadusr -Wn iotest pyvcp -c iotest iotest.xml" is working. as everyone else on the channel probably knew already.
[21:26:49] <owhite> love being the newbie. :-)
[21:26:58] <cradek> owhite: not me - I would have had to look at the manpages too
[21:27:43] <owhite> :-) good times.
[21:28:17] <jlmjvm> when you enter a move in mdi that has a tool offset its not reading the offset value from the tool.tbl
[21:29:47] <cradek> jlmjvm: what is the gcode and the resulting move that you think is wrong
[21:29:50] <jlmjvm> g0g43z0.h1,with a tool.tbl value of -1.00 should move the z axis to -1.00
[21:31:47] <cradek> the absolute position of the machine should be -1, but the axis will show 0, since you commanded 0
[21:32:01] <owhite> gracias people. its working.
[21:33:16] <cradek> when I issue that move, the cone jumps up an inch to represent the tool getting an inch shorter, then the cone moves back down to zero. if I had a machine hooked to it, the axis would move down an inch. This is correct behavior - is it different from what you see?
[21:35:34] <jlmjvm> ahh,my machine isnt hooked up right now,maybe thats it,however in 2.2.2 it wouls show the tool move down 1.00 without a machine hooked up
[21:35:42] <jlmjvm> would
[21:35:53] <cradek> I was using 2.2.2 when I just tried it
[21:38:09] <jlmjvm> will just get my mill back online and see if its moving to position
[21:38:38] <dmess> hi all..
[21:41:44] <BigJohnT> anyone interested in SHCS Counterbore G-Code generator for EMC2?
[21:47:55] <dmess> sure.. ship it to mes_for_fun@yahoo.com
[21:51:26] <BigJohnT> http://951753.pastebin.ca/890596
[21:56:54] <BigJohnT> all ready an update... http://951753.pastebin.ca/890610
[22:31:22] <skunkworks> jepler: are there any pluto-step sample hal files?
[22:44:39] <cradek> in the unlikely event that anyone cares, I built emc2 trunk on my ancient 2.4.20 + rtlinux 3.2 machine and it runs fine
[22:50:01] <BigJohnT> in the unlikely event that anyone wants to preview my g code software the latest one is http://951753.pastebin.ca/890654
[22:50:34] <cradek> BigJohnT: I think your shcs program looks neat and I'll probably want to use it when I convert my big mill
[22:50:36] <BigJohnT> cradek: I don't even know what you said
[22:50:40] <cradek> thanks for making it public
[22:51:04] <BigJohnT> I'll put it up on wiki once it's polished up a bit and some feed back comes in
[22:51:40] <cradek> BigJohnT: nothing important - a troll on the emc-users list accuses us of having dropped support for some older machines, but he's wrong, we didn't
[22:52:04] <BigJohnT> ok
[22:52:29] <BigJohnT> the latest version on pastebin addressed the tab/enter key to move to the next field
[22:52:41] <BigJohnT> have you tried it yet with emc?
[22:52:50] <cradek> nope
[22:53:22] <BigJohnT> it is pretty slick you can have a bunch of counterbores into emc in a few seconds
[22:53:27] <alex_joni> cradek: whee :)
[22:53:29] <cradek> are you going to put the updates on the wiki page too?
[22:53:47] <BigJohnT> when I'm finished I will
[22:53:55] <BigJohnT> but I'd like some feedback first
[22:53:57] <cradek> alex_joni: not a big surprise really - we didn't take it out
[22:54:21] <alex_joni> cradek: yeah, I know.. the only part I was worried about is forgotten things in the Makefile
[22:54:45] <alex_joni> like something got added for 2.6, but someone forgot to add it to the 2.4 part of the build process too
[22:54:47] <BigJohnT> you know what looks good to me looks good to me but I don't know others until I get feedback
[22:55:35] <cradek> alex_joni: because of old versions of python/bwidget I just built enough to run xemc. if I cared enough I could update python etc and get a full build - but I just wanted to test the rtlinux/kernel stuff
[22:55:54] <cradek> BigJohnT: I'll try it
[22:55:54] <alex_joni> ah, gotcha
[22:56:00] <BigJohnT> thanks
[22:58:24] <cradek> BigJohnT: I set it up as an input filter. it comes up, but it doesn't seem to work
[22:58:33] <cradek> I select #10
[22:58:39] <cradek> put .375 for tool diameter
[22:58:48] <cradek> x,y locations 1,1
[22:59:10] <cradek> do I have to fill out everything? I don't know some of them
[22:59:17] <cradek> like the depths?
[22:59:28] <BigJohnT> no just the tool diameter and pick a screw size
[22:59:35] <BigJohnT> did you press the generate button
[22:59:36] <cradek> then what do I do?
[22:59:45] <cradek> generate doesn't seem to do anything
[22:59:59] <BigJohnT> one moment
[23:00:47] <cradek> (I bet .375 is too big for #10)
[23:01:04] <cradek> actually they're equal
[23:01:33] <BigJohnT> pick a smaller tool
[23:01:55] <BigJohnT> I should bitch at the user when they do that LOL
[23:02:11] <cradek> well when they're equal you can still do it - it should maybe just use a G1
[23:02:32] <cradek> I see what I was doing wrong: I didn't hit enter in the X/Y field so it didn't fill out that list
[23:03:11] <cradek> now I see how it works, but it wasn't very obvious to me
[23:03:32] <BigJohnT> hmmm
[23:03:52] <cradek> maybe it could also use a button to clear the gcode window
[23:04:22] <cradek> we should ask jepler to look at this - he's a great gui guy
[23:04:55] <BigJohnT> Ok, I can add a button to clear the g code window
[23:05:07] <cradek> one thing that helps a screen be self-documenting is to have linear flow, either top to bottom, or left to right
[23:05:11] <BigJohnT> actually it's in the menu but you don't have that one
[23:05:14] <cradek> you _almost_ have that
[23:05:26] <BigJohnT> where did i miss the flow
[23:05:31] <cradek> you fill out things on the left, then move right to enter coordinates
[23:05:41] <cradek> then you have to go back to the left and hit generate
[23:05:52] <cradek> that puts stuff on the far right
[23:06:12] <cradek> then you go backward again and hit To AXIS (this button should be named "OK" I think)
[23:06:40] <BigJohnT> if your not in AXIS is says "To Clipboard"
[23:06:45] <cradek> Quit should be Cancel
[23:07:10] <cradek> if you hit Quit/Cancel it should return an error code (exit 1) so AXIS knows not to try to load the gcode
[23:07:32] <cradek> BigJohnT: if running standalone, maybe it should let you save in a file instead?
[23:07:49] <BigJohnT> It does that but you don't have that one yet
[23:08:13] <BigJohnT> quit/cancel just quits only to axis sends the file to axis
[23:08:56] <cradek> I understand
[23:09:35] <cradek> "OK", "Cancel", and to a lesser extent "Apply" have magic meanings that all gui users know - using them helps someone see how to work the screen
[23:09:55] <BigJohnT> my intent was to put this in a tabbed notebook some time in the future
[23:10:27] <BigJohnT> should it say "Send to Axis"?
[23:10:31] <cradek> I hope this was the kind of input you wanted
[23:10:36] <BigJohnT> you bet!
[23:10:48] <cradek> no I'm pretty sure the button should be OK
[23:11:06] <BigJohnT> btw you can double click on an entry in the xylist and edit it
[23:11:13] <BigJohnT> or delete it
[23:11:23] <BigJohnT> try that
[23:11:57] <cradek> yep
[23:12:11] <cradek> I would not have guessed that
[23:12:26] <BigJohnT> LOL that took some time to figure out
[23:12:28] <cradek> can I just remove one?
[23:12:45] <BigJohnT> just hit the delete key after you highlight it
[23:13:16] <BigJohnT> I mean click on it
[23:13:21] <cradek> got it
[23:14:01] <BigJohnT> does the "Insert EOF" button make any sense
[23:14:02] <cradek> I'm not sure how you could make those editing features more "discoverable"
[23:14:15] <BigJohnT> the help file I think
[23:14:15] <cradek> no, I had no idea what that is, so I didn't push it :-)
[23:14:39] <BigJohnT> ok it adds an M2 to the end of the code
[23:14:47] <cradek> oh I see
[23:14:52] <gezar> man, saw the new ti nspire calculator at the store earlier, its freaken nice, but I already forked out the cash for a ti89
[23:14:56] <BigJohnT> if you have several different sizes you only want the eof on the end
[23:15:06] <BigJohnT> of the last one
[23:15:24] <cradek> for that, you should use a checkbutton widget, since it's a toggle
[23:15:29] <BigJohnT> should it say "Insert M2"
[23:15:38] <BigJohnT> it is a check button LOL
[23:15:39] <cradek> it's a "gui blooper" to use a button as a checkbutton
[23:16:07] <cradek> the checkbutton is the little square box you can turn on and off
[23:16:38] <cradek> since it has a verb on it, I expected it to do something (like Generate does) when I pushed it - I didn't expect it to be a toggle controlling later behavior
[23:17:08] <cradek> I think indicatoron=1 will fix it??
[23:17:08] <BigJohnT> ok it's back to indicator on
[23:17:23] <BigJohnT> I just removed indicatoron=0
[23:17:31] <cradek> ok I'll do that here
[23:17:57] <BigJohnT> and the green thing
[23:19:18] <cradek> when I have a setting missing and I click Generate, it doesn't do anything - I have to guess what it wants me to fix - maybe this could be better somehow
[23:19:40] <cradek> Please enter the Tool Diameter. [OK]
[23:19:43] <BigJohnT> yea, I need to add some error checking
[23:21:17] <cradek> I like the generated gcode
[23:23:07] <BigJohnT> Sweet!
[23:23:46] <cradek> helical entry for stuff like this is very nice
[23:25:47] <gezar> BigJohnT: its a really nice start to a conversational method of making gcode too :)
[23:26:02] <BigJohnT> thanks
[23:26:13] <BigJohnT> doing some error checking code now...
[23:26:34] <BigJohnT> this feedback is great!
[23:27:06] <cradek> glad to hear it
[23:27:25] <cradek> have to run, bbl
[23:27:42] <BigJohnT> ok see you later
[23:28:36] <BigJohnT> btw there are two algrothims use one if the tool diameter is greater then the hole radius and one where the tooldiameter is <= the hole radius
[23:28:41] <BigJohnT> used
[23:32:56] <alex_joni> good night all
[23:36:42] <BigJohnT> good night alex_joni
[23:48:59] <BigJohnT> ok anyone want to check out the MarkII SHCS g code generator it is here > http://951753.pastebin.ca/890706
[23:56:11] <Roguish> cradek: where can i find docs on vismach?
[23:57:38] <cradek> Roguish: there aren't any except what you find as comments in the existing machine descriptions
[23:59:08] <Roguish> nothing on the formats for the different commands?
[23:59:15] <cradek> nope
[23:59:21] <Roguish> dang.