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[00:00:49] <dmess> ive used regular plumber's solder to hold drills in extensions
[00:08:01] <fenn> i wonder if you could crimp the ferrules on and pull it up with another collet like the tormach system
[00:36:29] <fenn> one problem with the ferrule idea is if the cutting portion is larger than the shank diameter
[00:36:51] <fenn> you wont be able to get the compression nut off
[00:39:28] <jmkasunich> fenn: the nuts are cheap
[00:39:55] <jmkasunich> I think a nut and a ferrule together are under $1 when buying say 10 of each
[00:40:08] <fenn> oh so you'd just leave it on the cutter?
[00:40:14] <jmkasunich> sure
[00:40:44] <fenn> i was thinking about the tormach-esque scheme
[00:41:00] <jmkasunich> oh
[00:41:06] <fenn> but in that case you could have a special split fitting
[00:41:33] <jmkasunich> the tormach scheme requires a drawbar as well
[00:41:52] <jmkasunich> drawbar hole in a small spindle would be a challenge to drill
[00:42:19] <fenn> why?
[00:42:25] <jmkasunich> long small hole
[00:42:38] <jmkasunich> assume spindle is 3-4 inches long, and 1/8" tools
[00:42:47] <fenn> ok, so its not some metallurgy thing like you'd want to use difficult to machine steel for the spindle
[00:43:03] <jmkasunich> well, I would want to use good steel for the spindle
[00:43:14] <jmkasunich> and good steel can be tough to machine, depending on what it is
[00:45:23] <jmkasunich> it would also be tricky to get the drawbar hole to stay centered the entire length
[00:45:56] <fenn> it doesn't have to be a 1/8" hole does it?
[00:46:35] <jmkasunich> I'm trying to decide if making the drawbar bigger than the tool would work
[00:47:01] <anonimasu> hm, why not ream the hole?
[00:47:02] <anonimasu> on a lathe
[00:47:10] <jmkasunich> you gotta drill it first
[00:47:15] <fenn> reamer won't make it more concentric anyway
[00:47:22] <toastydeath> ^ tru
[00:47:31] <jmkasunich> even on the lathe, drills aren't inherently concentric, and the reamer will follow the drill
[00:47:37] <JymmmEMC> Is there more common name for those panel mount breakers that sort resemble and can be used as a switch?
[00:47:43] <jmkasunich> you'd have to bore it to have it concentric
[00:48:08] <fenn> panel mount breaker
[00:48:26] <fenn> well, what about gun drilling? :)
[00:48:39] <jmkasunich> I don't have a gun drill
[00:48:45] <toastydeath> you have to bore that first too
[00:48:54] <toastydeath> drill, bore, and sometimes ream
[00:48:54] <fenn> huh?
[00:49:01] <jmkasunich> gun drills drill from the solid
[00:49:01] <toastydeath> to start a gun drill.
[00:49:07] <fenn> oh
[00:49:11] <jmkasunich> oh, to start it
[00:49:12] <toastydeath> it depends on the system, some drills start from solid
[00:49:15] <toastydeath> but those are way more expensive
[00:49:26] <jmkasunich> starting is no problem, its not deep
[00:49:28] <toastydeath> most need a to-size pocket to start in
[00:49:30] <toastydeath> indeed!
[00:49:59] <jmkasunich> even if I was just drilling it with a twist drill, I'd bore one drill diameter deep to ensure the drill starts on center
[00:50:09] <fenn> well a gun drill looks simple enough to make
[00:50:14] <jmkasunich> it will wander off-center anyway, thats what twist drills do, but....
[00:50:30] <JymmmEMC> How weird... 80V max
http://cgi.ebay.com/CARLING-SWITCH-25A-PANEL-MOUNT-BREAKER-NEW_W0QQitemZ320138226449QQihZ011QQcategoryZ109556QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem
[00:50:32] <jmkasunich> gun drills use 1000+ psi forced lube through the center to remove chips
[00:50:41] <toastydeath> modern gun drills have multiple cutting edges and pads in specific places
[00:50:50] <toastydeath> to keep the forces balanced and the drill true
[00:50:56] <toastydeath> but a basic gun drill is pretty simple, yes
[00:51:12] <toastydeath> and a pump from a power steering system will give you the pressure you need for the coolant.
[00:51:17] <fenn> well, how did they do it in 1776 then?
[00:51:32] <toastydeath> they used the simpler ones that still wander around a bit
[00:51:36] <jmkasunich> getting back to the original problem - my plan is to design a small-tool spindle that doesn't need a drawbar hole
[00:51:46] <jmkasunich> then I don't have to make a gundrill from bits of junk
[00:52:01] <fenn> party pooper
[00:53:05] <jmkasunich> thats me
[00:53:22] <fenn> tiny gun drills:
http://www.sterlinggundrills.com/graphics/solid-carbide-shank.gif
[00:53:53] <fenn> .053" solid carbide
[00:54:22] <jmkasunich> if you have to ask you can't afford it
[00:54:32] <jmkasunich> oh, theres a price list
[00:54:43] <toastydeath> hahahah
[00:54:47] <jmkasunich> $103 minimum
[00:54:50] <toastydeath> and sometimes even if you don't have to ask you can't afford.
[00:54:54] <jmkasunich> I don't want to afford that
[00:55:44] <toastydeath> but it's cute!
[00:55:52] <toastydeath> and i was expecting it to cost 175-200
[00:56:00] <jmkasunich> looks like you can get a "standard" gun drill, 1/8" for $83
[00:57:34] <toastydeath> all you need is a high pressure pump
[00:57:40] <toastydeath> really you don't need a gun drill
[00:57:58] <jmkasunich> 0.0001 feed per rev = 10000 turns per inch = 30000 turns for a 3" long spindle = half an hour at 1000 RPM
[00:57:58] <toastydeath> you can go 10-20x diameter with a high end drill from titex or guhring
[00:58:11] <toastydeath> the trick in any case is the pressure
[00:58:23] <jmkasunich> coolant pressure?
[00:58:53] <jmkasunich> hmm, 1/8" gun drill, wants 1500 PSI at 1 GPM
[00:59:05] <toastydeath> yes
[00:59:05] <fenn> what does pressure have to do with concentricity?
[00:59:13] <toastydeath> oh, i thought we were going deep?
[00:59:20] <fenn> well, both
[00:59:24] <fenn> i think?
[00:59:32] <toastydeath> i'd also choose a titex or guhring for concentricty as well
[00:59:47] <toastydeath> they're very, very good drills, but they cost like 15 bucks for 1/8"
[00:59:54] <fenn> i guess you could shave the OD of the spindle to balance
[00:59:57] <toastydeath> still cheaper than a gun, and should be more accurate
[01:00:35] <jmkasunich> fenn: one approach is to drill first, then put it between centers (using the drill hole) and turn the OD concentric to the hole instead of the other way around
[01:00:57] <jmkasunich> only valid if the hole is straight but off center
[01:01:03] <jmkasunich> if the hole curves, all bets are off
[01:01:10] <fenn> get a hammer :)
[01:01:35] <toastydeath> hahaha
[01:02:09] <fenn> so, is there anything wrong with just peck drilling?
[01:02:51] <jmkasunich> other than dying of old age before the hole is done?
[01:03:03] <toastydeath> doesn't help with the hole geometry
[01:03:03] <fenn> well, you got a CNC lathe remember
[01:03:06] <toastydeath> just with chip clearance
[01:03:23] <toastydeath> just like pressure doesn't have anything to do with accuracy, neither does pecking
[01:03:24] <jmkasunich> cnc lathe with a manual tailstock
[01:03:30] <fenn> it saves on having to get through-hole drill bits and make a coolant delivery system
[01:03:36] <toastydeath> put the drill in the cross slide
[01:03:38] <jmkasunich> anyway, we keep going back to deep hole drilling
[01:03:53] <toastydeath> how deep is this hole
[01:03:58] <jmkasunich> I'm a damned engineer - that means I use my brain to design things that don't need difficult machining operations
[01:04:06] <jmkasunich> toastydeath: there isn't one, in my design
[01:04:09] <toastydeath> oh
[01:04:23] <jmkasunich> (we're talking about spindles for 1/8" shank carbide tools)
[01:04:45] <jmkasunich> I want a front mount design, fenn is talking about a design that uses a drawbar (so it needs a long skinny drawbar hole)
[01:04:58] <fenn> i hear pcb drilling machines go through boxes of drill bits a day
[01:05:20] <lerman> Do you plan on an automatic tool changer? :-)
[01:05:27] <jmkasunich> nope
[01:05:27] <archivist> they run a bit fast 60k rpm
[01:06:13] <jmkasunich> 20-30K will work if you back off on feeds - a hobby machine doesn't need the thoughput of a commercial one
[01:06:41] <archivist_emc> true
[01:07:26] <jmkasunich> harbor fright has a 1/4 HP 15,000 RPM flexshaft set (foredom clone) for $70, that is a candidate for the motor
[01:07:27] <lerman> Oh. It's a hobby machine. Why aren't you using Mach then? EMC is for professional machines. :-)
[01:07:41] <jmkasunich> heh
[01:08:01] <archivist> any way dremel== ready made spindle for 30k
[01:08:04] <lerman> Do you plan on reworking the bearings on the flexshaft set?
[01:08:28] <jmkasunich> yes - I wouldn't use the flex part at all - too much vibration and slop
[01:08:52] <jmkasunich> probably belt drive (o-ring type belt, or small flat), to allow some latitude on speed
[01:09:17] <fenn> no old sewing machines laying around?
[01:09:33] <jmkasunich> ideally the spindle/motor assembly could be used on the mill for PC boards, or as a toolpost grinder, etc on the lathe
[01:09:37] <archivist_emc> hmm ubuntu installed, steppers working, first g code sorta working, 1 am /me can go home now
[01:09:47] <jmkasunich> fenn: nope, good idea tho
[01:10:00] <fenn> not my idea.. saw it on buildyouridea.com
[01:10:27] <fenn> oop.. salad shooter
[01:10:29] <fenn> http://buildyouridea.com/cnc/pcb_drill/pcb_drill.html
[01:12:03] <fenn> prolly want something without a fan
[01:12:48] <jmkasunich> thats a nice little spindle
[01:13:05] <jmkasunich> can't tell how he's holding the tools in though
[01:14:30] <archivist> looks like a collet and nut
[01:15:11] <jmkasunich> http://www.buildyouridea.com/cnc/spindle_05/spindle_05.html
[01:15:17] <jmkasunich> even simpler - setscrew
[01:15:18] <toastydeath> clearly he's using heat shrink
[01:15:24] <fenn> probably something like this
http://buildyouridea.com/cnc/pcbmill/spindle.html
[01:15:24] <jmkasunich> (seems guaranteed to have runout
[01:15:57] <fenn> that's not the same spindle
[01:16:09] <lerman> Have you looked at "outrunner" motors? Small, three phase brushless...
[01:16:16] <jmkasunich> yes
[01:16:17] <fenn> * fenn wonders how many spindles this guy has
[01:16:34] <jmkasunich> I first started thinking about fast spindles a year ago, after seeing outrunner motor sites
[01:17:44] <fenn> how fast do they go?
[01:18:00] <lerman> Seems like a neat way to go.
[01:18:27] <jmkasunich> lerman: the ones I saw were for model airplanes
[01:18:38] <lerman> Yup.
[01:18:40] <jmkasunich> stunning power density, but they relied on the passing air for cooling
[01:18:57] <jmkasunich> and also were intermittent duty, a few minutes at a time max
[01:18:57] <toastydeath> cool compressed air and blow it over the motor?
[01:19:54] <fenn> put a pc fan on it
[01:19:57] <BigJohnT> water jacket cooling
[01:19:58] <lerman> Get one of the larger ones and run it at lower load.
[01:20:24] <lerman> Put a prop on it and use that to blow air thru it.
[01:20:29] <fenn> what's the limiting factor for belt ratios?
[01:20:45] <jmkasunich> fenn: usually slipping on the small pulley
[01:20:58] <jmkasunich> since as the ratio gets more extreme, that pulley loses wrap angle
[01:21:05] <fenn> you can use a tensioner
[01:21:21] <jmkasunich> to increase the wrap angle?
[01:21:23] <lerman> Unless you use an idler to increase the wrap -- or put them an infinite distance apart.
[01:21:24] <fenn> yes
[01:21:36] <jmkasunich> I suppose, but thats another high speed shaft
[01:21:56] <jmkasunich> unless you make the tension pulley large, but then it gets hard to fit it in
[01:23:36] <fenn> you could do like those ultra high speed spindles and just spin the floating bit with a tire
[01:23:40] <tomp> "all of the "milling" to make the flat sections was done with a sander" from the spindle page :-)
[01:23:48] <lerman> As far as heat it concerned, they are probably no less efficient than other motors. So, just pick one with the right size.
[01:24:14] <jmkasunich> lerman: where are you talking about "picking" one from?
[01:24:19] <jmkasunich> the sites I saw were mostly DIY
[01:24:27] <jmkasunich> rewinding CD-ROM motors and such
[01:24:46] <lerman> I think they are commercially available, now.
[01:24:56] <jmkasunich> the few that I did see for sale had prices that were much higher than the HF $70 foredom clone
[01:25:11] <lerman> http://www.hobby-lobby.com/brushless-axi2208.htm
[01:25:14] <jmkasunich> you pay for that power-to-weight ratio - worth it in a plan, not on a machine
[01:25:40] <lerman> How long do you think a HF foredom clone will last?
[01:25:51] <jmkasunich> dunno
[01:26:22] <jmkasunich> the hobby motor prices aren't as bad as I expected
[01:26:28] <jmkasunich> but theres no info about power there
[01:26:44] <jmkasunich> need torque, or watts, or something, so you can tell what is what
[01:26:47] <fenn> vacuum cleaner probably has a pretty fast motor in it
[01:27:01] <jmkasunich> knowing what size plane it can pull isn't very usefull ;-(
[01:27:31] <BigJohnT> model airplane motors should have the wattage rating
[01:27:36] <lerman> And they are cheap enough that you can afford a hearing aid after you go deaf listining to the vacuum cleaner motor.
[01:28:25] <lerman> Some of the motors on the DIY lists were over a HP. (if I recall correctly).
[01:28:54] <fenn> juiceman junior.. quiet, fast, powerful
[01:28:55] <jmkasunich> vacuum motors are probably in the same class (if not worse) then the HF foredom clone
[01:29:18] <toastydeath> jig grinder spindle!
[01:29:30] <jmkasunich> toastydeath: got one laying around to send me?
[01:29:46] <toastydeath> i have an invisible one i can send you
[01:29:50] <toastydeath> in an invisible box!
[01:29:59] <tomp> the sewing machine arm might have a nice bearinged shaft in it. the rear always had that big hand starter wheel and felt really solid
[01:30:22] <jmkasunich> looks like the airplane motors run on 12V 18A = ~200 watts = ~/14 HP (assuming it all gets turned into spin, not hot)
[01:30:52] <jmkasunich> toastydeath: its a deal - I'll send you some invisible money
[01:31:01] <toastydeath> hot!
[01:31:05] <toastydeath> i am glad this can work out for us both
[01:31:16] <tomp> 1hp ~= 2800watts?
[01:31:21] <jmkasunich> 746 watts
[01:31:22] <BigJohnT> a lot goes to heating the air'
[01:31:51] <tomp> oh, ~/4
[01:31:57] <fenn> tomp: let me introduce you to "units":
http://www.gnu.org/software/units/
[01:32:38] <tomp> thx fenn I was being sarc/silly
[01:33:26] <fenn> oh~~ (sarcasm marks)
[01:36:10] <lerman> See:
http://www.gobrushless.com/shop/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=catshow&ref=scorpion40
[01:36:33] <lerman> Max continuous power -> 1500 watts. $89.99
[01:37:17] <jmkasunich> 85amps :-0
[01:37:49] <jmkasunich> still, I'm amazed at that power per dollar - they've come a long way in a year or two
[01:38:26] <lerman> I saw that. Also, the power per unit weight.
[01:38:43] <jmkasunich> well, power per weight was always impressive - has to be for planes
[01:39:09] <fenn> * fenn disassembles the juicer
[01:39:11] <lerman> I don't really know if that would work in your application, and considering that you also need a power supply/VFD, it's expensive.
[01:39:43] <lerman> But... when you were done, it's a heck of a lot more motor than a HF foredom clone.
[01:39:52] <jmkasunich> the permanent magnets in an environment with metal chips is kind of un-nerving
[01:40:04] <jmkasunich> thats for sure
[01:41:05] <lerman> Kits are available for these things, so if you want to save money, you could DIY.
[01:41:21] <jmkasunich> hmm, 400W max, 30A, $45 (smaller size, 30mm instead of 40)
[01:41:47] <lerman> I assume that is continuous also.
[01:41:52] <jmkasunich> yes
[01:42:22] <jmkasunich> 35A drive is $55
[01:42:38] <jmkasunich> car battery and charger to run it......
[01:42:43] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[01:43:00] <lerman> I didn't see anything on maximum voltage or speed. Kv is around 500 rpm/volt (depending on model).
[01:43:21] <jmkasunich> the controllers are all 6-15V
[01:43:47] <jmkasunich> so figure 15V tops, thats 7500 RPM unless I'm being mental math imparied
[01:43:50] <jmkasunich> impared
[01:43:57] <jmkasunich> impaired
[01:44:01] <BigJohnT> http://www.science-city.com/918vdchispel.html
[01:44:02] <jmkasunich> spelling impaired
[01:44:15] <lerman> but not math impaired.
[01:44:34] <jmkasunich> BigJohnT: much less power than we're talking about
[01:44:51] <jmkasunich> 1.98A at 18V is under 36 watts
[01:44:51] <BigJohnT> yes
[01:45:03] <jmkasunich> we're talking about things that would run 10x that
[01:45:06] <lerman> Not clear though where the maximum voltage rating would come from.
[01:45:21] <jmkasunich> well, the controller rating comes from the mosfets
[01:46:14] <jmkasunich> the motor limit would be fuzzier - as you increase volts and speed you also increase frequency, and eventually core loss in the motor will result in overheating
[01:46:32] <lerman> Question is whether you could use a different controller and run the speed up higher. Physical forces on the rotor, unbalance...
[01:46:55] <jmkasunich> right
[01:47:18] <jmkasunich> outrunners are probably more sensitive to that, since the rotating parts are bigger
[01:47:40] <lerman> Ah. Core losses. As I recall, they use stacks of thin stock. I would think that the right material should me OK at 15 or 30K rpm.
[01:48:02] <jmkasunich> yet another project
[01:48:04] <lerman> Balance the magnets when the rotor is assembled.
[01:48:23] <lerman> Use 'premium' bearings.
[01:48:30] <jmkasunich> I took apart a few cdrom and similar motors back when I first started reading about those - didn't do anything with them tho
[01:48:37] <jmkasunich> too many projects, too little time
[01:49:24] <jmkasunich> the ability to dynamically balance "things" in general would be handy to have
[01:49:48] <jmkasunich> I doubt that static balancing would be good enough when you get into the 30K range
[01:50:18] <lerman> Some of the turbo threads I've seen include a reference to a DIY dynamic balancer. (yet another project)
[01:50:24] <jmkasunich> lol
[01:50:46] <jmkasunich> I should get back to work on the project at hand
[01:51:06] <lerman> See you.
[01:51:46] <jmkasunich> thanks for the ideas and links - that brushless place is bookmarked
[01:52:05] <fenn> hmm.. 52x cd-rom is 10krpm?
[01:56:18] <SWPadnos> should be closer to 15k - 1x is 300RPM I think
[01:59:14] <fenn> how about a homopolar motor - no magnets, high speed, no brush arcing
[01:59:43] <jmkasunich> homopolor motors always have brushes, and they usually carry very very high currents
[02:00:35] <fenn> yes but there is no commutation
[02:01:53] <jmkasunich> there is sliding contact, thats what matters
[02:02:10] <fenn> when i was reading about pancake motors, they said that they could reach very high speeds without brush wear because there was very little inductance
[02:02:34] <fenn> its the arcing that causes brush wear, not sliding contact
[02:03:43] <fenn> but i dunno what happens with low voltage high current and no inductance
[02:04:18] <SWPadnos> booom!
[02:04:39] <jmkasunich> fenn: with a homopolar, its aggravated because one of the brushes usually has to be at a large radius, so the surface speed is high
[02:06:19] <fenn> i'm not sure if its technically a homopolar motor, but you could ahve a "U" shaped toroid that carries the current
[02:06:34] <fenn> uh, toroid is the wrong word
[02:06:38] <SWPadnos> a U shape isn't a toroid
[02:06:40] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:06:45] <SWPadnos> a horseshoe magnet?
[02:07:03] <eric_U> for bigger motors you can go to hobbycity www.hobbycity.com
[02:07:21] <fenn> hmm i guess there isnt a word for this shape
[02:07:44] <eric_U> shipping is slow, but the prices are right
[02:07:50] <eric_U> also www.bphobbies.com
[02:07:57] <fenn> take only the skin of a cylinder, and drill a hole through it axially
[02:08:08] <JymmmEMC> fenn: In response to your question "fenn: but i dunno what happens with low voltage high current and no inductance". You get this (seriously) -->
http://www.action-electronics.com/grc/wed550.jpg
[02:09:38] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:09:39] <tomp> an electric bicycle used one of those airplane motors, controller and a lipo battery
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qxh_cMrIyVI
[02:09:41] <JymmmEMC> They're like 0.5V 100 or 400 amps. At least that's what the Cooper Tools engineer told me.
[02:10:05] <JymmmEMC> Cooper Tools is the parent company of weller
[02:10:13] <eric_U> why would they bother changing voltages?
[02:10:22] <eric_U> just set it up to use 120v
[02:10:24] <JymmmEMC> eric_U: because of the tips
[02:10:50] <JymmmEMC> it IS 120VAC on primary, secondary is 0.5V 100-400Amps
[02:11:38] <eric_U> there is an electric bike company that blows away airplane motors, the stator is probably too small on the airplane outrunners
[02:12:06] <eric_U> they certainly have the power though
[02:14:59] <eric_U> the battery in that utube video is probably $3-400
[02:19:24] <lerneaen_hydra> I tried a similar design with a roller that presses on the rubber tire, the efficiency in the transmission was abysmal, I never tested but probably in the range of 50-70%
[02:19:39] <lerneaen_hydra> *I never tested scientifically
[02:19:47] <eric_U> yes, the successful bikes have powered hubs
[02:20:18] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, I've been trying to get a hold of one of those cheaply for a while
[02:20:32] <eric_U> I think a system is about 1k
[02:20:58] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm, by system do you mean a retrofit kit?
[02:21:09] <eric_U> yes, and a decent set of batteries
[02:21:18] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, not bad
[02:22:13] <eric_U> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdyV6cZ4ZMg
[02:22:22] <eric_U> probably a little more :)
[02:23:24] <lerneaen_hydra> interesting, series-type hybrid?
[02:24:04] <eric_U> parallel?
[02:24:36] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, there was a chain that went to the rear wheel
[02:27:21] <fenn> i wonder why no fairing over the rear wheel
[02:27:35] <eric_U> don't need it I guess
[02:28:35] <eric_U> http://cgi.ebay.com/Crystalyte-24-brushless-electric-bicycle-hub-motor-kit_W0QQitemZ250074611485QQihZ015QQcategoryZ7295QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem
[02:29:04] <eric_U> don't know why they aren't offering the brushless in 26", probably temporary
[02:29:07] <lerneaen_hydra> too bad I'm in europe :P
[02:30:03] <eric_U> considering the exchange rate between the euro and the American peso, you're in good shape
[02:30:17] <SWPadnos> it's more of a peseta these days
[02:30:28] <eric_U> american yen
[02:30:31] <lerneaen_hydra> that's very true
[02:30:35] <SWPadnos> US Lire
[02:30:39] <eric_U> http://www.crystalyte.com/
[02:30:41] <lerneaen_hydra> not at all bad
[02:30:49] <lerneaen_hydra> bah, far too late here now
[02:30:52] <lerneaen_hydra> 'night all
[02:30:57] <eric_U> they got dealers over there for ya'll
[02:31:02] <tomp> those dewalt batteries are scarce, any one know of a source
[02:31:07] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm I'll take a look at it
[02:31:10] <lerneaen_hydra> 'night
[02:31:14] <eric_U> g'nite
[02:31:24] <eric_U> ebay is a good source for the dewalt batteries
[02:31:32] <eric_U> they seem to go for right around $100
[02:31:42] <tomp> thankq
[02:32:08] <eric_U> I'm hoping to have an airplane with them in it
[02:32:32] <eric_U> I have some of the smaller a123 batteries, going to put them in a plane soon
[02:37:25] <Gamma-X> hey whats up everyone
[02:37:37] <Gamma-X> im tryin to come up with the front panel for my machine with the monitor.
[02:38:04] <eric_U> that's so much fun
[02:39:04] <Gamma-X> just trying to find wich buttons i need and etc.
[02:39:04] <eric_U> you could do like Haas, throw every button in the world on there and hope people like it
[02:39:14] <Gamma-X> lol
[02:39:16] <Gamma-X> nah
[02:39:17] <Gamma-X> f that
[02:39:50] <Gamma-X> i want 1 through 9 an enter button, a select button, xyz movement buttons
[02:41:04] <tomp> eric_U: i see the 36V dewalt is made with the A123's
http://www.slkelectronics.com/DeWalt/packs.htm
[02:41:18] <eric_U> that's right, they are amazing
[02:41:43] <cradek> in my use of EMC, I think 1-9 are some of the keys I use least often
[02:41:52] <eric_U> a little heavier than lipo
[02:41:53] <Gamma-X> realy?
[02:42:11] <Gamma-X> cradek what buttons do u think would be most beneficial?
[02:42:17] <cradek> the most frequent things to do at the keyboard are jog and type MDI commands
[02:42:35] <cradek> a jogwheel is better for jogging of course
[02:43:35] <Gamma-X> what is an mdi command?
[02:44:23] <cradek> you might want to spend a little time using emc before you try to design a panel for it
[02:44:39] <cradek> just use a keyboard and monitor and mouse for a while
[02:44:39] <eric_U> you suggest just using the comp?
[02:44:54] <cradek> if you have never used cnc before, yes
[02:45:12] <cradek> starting by designing and building a panel just means you will have to do it again
[02:45:48] <Gamma-X> ok
[02:47:36] <eric_U> It's definitely a secondary concern for me
[02:48:12] <Gamma-X> what should I be prepared for when those cards come in terms of what i do first, and blah blah
[02:52:27] <eric_U> you need to figure out what connects where
[02:52:47] <eric_U> getting the cards in you control cabinet may not be easy either
[02:52:59] <Gamma-X> im just gunna throw them in the comptuer
[02:52:59] <eric_U> did you get 50 pin ribbon cable?
[02:53:11] <Gamma-X> eric_U THEY DONT COME WITH ANY? LOL
[02:53:15] <eric_U> no
[02:53:20] <Gamma-X> damn...
[02:53:28] <Gamma-X> is it standard computer type ribbon cable?
[02:53:30] <eric_U> hate to say it, but I told you that
[02:53:33] <eric_U> yes
[02:53:43] <Gamma-X> I have to have a few around
[02:53:46] <Gamma-X> HAVE 2
[02:53:52] <eric_U> hafta
[02:54:02] <Gamma-X> yeah that
[02:54:05] <eric_U> old scsi cables
[02:54:12] <Gamma-X> ide cables right?
[02:54:21] <Gamma-X> once i hook it all up to the machine what do i do?
[02:54:30] <eric_U> o-l-d s-c-s-i cables
[02:54:35] <eric_U> was that slow enough for you?
[02:54:39] <Gamma-X> nio
[02:54:54] <eric_U> ide is 40
[02:54:56] <Gamma-X> lol im a mess tonite
[02:55:02] <Gamma-X> ahh ok
[07:23:02] <fenn> thermoacoustics is super neato
[07:29:35] <micges> hi
[07:38:26] <alex_joni> hi micges
[12:52:56] <skunkworks> logger_emc: bookmark
[12:52:56] <skunkworks> Just this once .. here's the log:
http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2008-01-14.txt
[12:53:26] <eric_U> that page is destined to be a classic
[12:56:50] <skunkworks> from gun drills to incompetence\? ;)
[12:57:04] <eric_U> mostly the incompetence
[12:58:40] <archivist> heh
[13:00:00] <archivist> * archivist wonders how much smoke a couple of people will make
[13:00:22] <eric_U> some people are better at making smoke than others
[14:57:35] <skunkworks> so - hostdime workes weekends to tranfer sites.. cool.
[15:04:46] <tomp> if i call vivaek.com what should i ask for?
[15:04:57] <tomp> what should i find out?
[15:12:23] <jepler> I see their machines use an RS232 interface. I don't think there's any reason to believe that those machines would readily work with emc without throwing out most of the electronics and replacing them.
[15:13:46] <rayh> Who is their machines?
[15:14:00] <cradek> $300 cheaper without the controller
[15:14:01] <jepler> rayh: the "vivaek.com" that tomp mentioned earlier
[15:14:11] <rayh> Ah. Thanks
[15:14:28] <cradek> $300 ~= geckos
[15:15:18] <tomp> anybody decipher the chinese on them? it begins 'Big" ....
[15:15:30] <tomp> the company name
[15:15:57] <tomp> (breaks out chinese dict)
[15:16:06] <jepler> you're ahead of me if you have a chinese dictionary
[15:16:15] <jepler> and light-years ahead of me if you know how to go about finding a particular character in it
[15:17:32] <cradek> "and you don't have to wait light years for the next Windows to come out either" [clueless IBM marketing dork selling OS/2 Warp, ca. 1994]
[15:17:55] <jepler> hey, it's a figure of speech
[15:18:05] <jepler> but thanks for obliquely calling me a clueless dork
[15:18:31] <cradek> pretty sure you used it as a distance
[15:18:47] <rayh> HPGL programming?
[15:19:14] <rayh> I wonder how they add z to that. Pen number?
[15:19:29] <jepler> I bet it's something like that
[15:19:49] <cradek> you could definitely use pen widths as heights
[15:20:31] <rayh> If that's the case, then the rs232 might make sense as an ordinary old style plotter interface.
[15:20:42] <cradek> I agree
[15:21:01] <cradek> (if you can still find anything that will run a pen plotter)
[15:21:05] <rayh> I don't agree that jepler is a clueless dork
[15:21:43] <cradek> ok maybe I need to explain that
[15:21:45] <rayh> * rayh glances at his plotter gathering dust in the corner.
[15:22:10] <cradek> this was an OS2 conference (a bunch of geeks excited about a new OS) and the marketing type used light-year as a period of time, not distance
[15:22:26] <cradek> everyone in the crowd knew a light-year is a distance measurement
[15:22:37] <rayh> I seem to remember something in the os2 stuff about that.
[15:22:39] <jepler> and that's why Microsoft won the OS war of the 90s?
[15:22:39] <cradek> so they were dumbstruck when he said "will have to wait light years"
[15:23:05] <cradek> yes I'm sure it was all his fault
[15:23:16] <rayh> Nah they won because os2 was a nightmare a lot like cpm86
[15:23:41] <cradek> windows 95 was actually quite neat
[15:23:43] <skunkworks> * skunkworks bought a os2 copy
[15:23:56] <cradek> (actually so was os2 warp)
[15:24:05] <skunkworks> I ran it for atleast a month.
[15:24:34] <rayh> What! No one ran CPM.
[15:24:42] <cradek> warp came with productivity apps including a decent word processor
[15:24:56] <jepler> I remember wishing for the CPM card for my Commodore 64 (not that I had any idea what software I could run with it)
[15:25:03] <skunkworks> I am almost thinking that the C128 had cpm..
[15:25:10] <skunkworks> in 128 mode
[15:25:13] <cradek> yes it did
[15:25:13] <rayh> You youngsters were probably playing pack man back then.
[15:25:41] <archivist> we had a CPM box on IEEE488 off the back of out PET
[15:25:43] <skunkworks> I think 99.9% of the time we ran our C128 in c64 mode.
[15:26:08] <skunkworks> 99.99999999%
[15:26:08] <cradek> skunkworks: did you have the nice color monitor? I remember wanting one pretty bad
[15:26:18] <skunkworks> Yes - it was rgb iirc
[15:26:25] <rayh> I seem to remember some nightmare accounting and inventory package on it.
[15:26:34] <skunkworks> and 80 column in c128 mode.
[15:26:35] <skunkworks> iirc
[15:26:36] <lerman> Heathkit H89 - that used CPM, I think. The first machine I bought.
[15:26:48] <cradek> my "monitor" was a B&W TV with the horiz output tube bad, so the letters at the top of the screen were 3x as tall as at the bottom of the screen
[15:26:50] <jepler> there never was much C128 software AFAIR -- but I would have loved to have terminal software that could run in native 80-column mode
[15:27:17] <tomp> http://oldcomputers.net/lobomax80.html my cpm system (chinese tonight bbl )
[15:27:45] <rayh> As the youpers around here would say, "ho wah! dose were da days, eh!"
[15:28:02] <cradek> jepler: didn't you like that 3 pixel wide font?
[15:28:14] <jepler> cradek: the font didn't bother me so much as the scrolling speed
[15:31:53] <rayh> A student and I built the student radio station automation system and ran it with a RadShack model one. Lots of peeks and pokes.
[15:34:10] <skunkworks> we had gotten a serial card for the 128.. I don't think I ever got it working correctly
[15:34:20] <skunkworks> trying to run some old serial printers
[15:36:23] <cradek> I had some parallel printer converter board so I used a PC-style daisy wheel printer
[15:37:18] <cradek> and I eventually tore the line drivers out of a normal modem to hook up to the (ttl level serial) user port
[15:37:34] <skunkworks> so did we. It was a comador serial to parallel. We bought a star dot-matrix (ibm style)
[15:38:29] <cradek> I miss the daisy wheel - it was cool. It had a sheet feeder. I'd start it printing something and close the door, it was so loud :-)
[15:38:36] <skunkworks> at first though we had a daisy wheel printer/typewriter that had a commadore serial port in it.
[15:39:14] <skunkworks> word proccessing has come a long way :)
[15:40:12] <jepler> at least with the daisy wheel there was no possibility of comic sans
[15:40:14] <cradek> actually it seems about the same to me... word processing means type/edit/cut/copy/paste/print and I had all those things
[15:40:28] <skunkworks> did you use fasthackum? :)
[15:40:43] <cradek> yeah now we have many fonts, which lets you distract the reader from the text
[15:41:37] <jepler> ah Fast Hack'Em -- I remember seeing the ads
[15:41:42] <jepler> but I never had any money to spend as a kid
[15:41:47] <cradek> what was it?
[15:41:52] <jepler> I relied on others to crack the software and upload it to the BBSes
[15:41:53] <skunkworks> copy software
[15:42:07] <cradek> oh right, was that the thing that was part hardware?
[15:42:12] <skunkworks> heh - it still made copying hacked software easier.
[15:42:19] <jepler> actually I probably had a stolen copy of Fast Hack'Em
[15:42:23] <jepler> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Hack'em
[15:42:25] <skunkworks> and we got a copy of it. ;)
[15:42:31] <cradek> haha
[15:43:40] <skunkworks> one of our reletives lived it chicago.. he got all the cool hacked software
[15:44:36] <jepler> hah, "BASEMENT BOYS SOFTWARE" -- so this is barely a ficticious software company at all.
http://www.hrwiki.org/index.php/Edgar
[15:45:25] <skunkworks> "programmed entirely in Mom's sewing room "
[15:57:38] <jepler> 'Being faced for the first time with PostScript files on a Commodore disk, I was at a real loss as how to edit them. PostScript files can get enormous; 20 to 40K is common.'
[15:57:50] <jepler> sometimes I wish for simpler days
[15:57:54] <jepler> but then I read things like this
[15:57:56] <jepler> and my mind is changed
[16:18:36] <lerneaen_hydra_> haha
[16:18:43] <lerneaen_hydra_> lerneaen_hydra_ is now known as lerneaen_hydra
[16:19:18] <lerneaen_hydra> kind of ironic that copy protection cracking software costs money
[16:21:39] <lerneaen_hydra> kind of counterproductive
[16:22:22] <skunkworks> what do you mean? I can't copy your software with your software?
[16:22:26] <skunkworks> ;)
[16:22:57] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah exactly :)
[16:53:42] <SWPadnos> cradek, was the hardware-assisted floppy copier Copy II PC, or was there one for the C128 as well?
[16:56:24] <alex_joni> there was a chinese-guy assisted floppy copier.. does that one count?
[16:56:38] <SWPadnos> no, this was hardware, not wetware :)
[16:56:44] <alex_joni> meatware
[17:35:44] <JymmmEMC> ug
[17:36:42] <SWPadnos> oog
[17:40:27] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I had an idea regarding auto/manual mode switch... What if I used it as a main power switch?
[17:40:57] <JymmmEMC> Manual/Off/Auto ?
[17:41:05] <SWPadnos> do you still want that controlfor the spindle?
[17:41:14] <SWPadnos> or just the vac?
[17:41:45] <JymmmEMC> Just the vac or dry runs
[17:42:13] <SWPadnos> ok, so you want a spindle inhibit control, and independent vacuum power
[17:42:36] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I just figured that if I ever decide to add spray lube, it would be in parallel to spindle.
[17:42:52] <SWPadnos> no, you probably want separate control of mist or flood coolant
[17:43:11] <SWPadnos> though it would run more or less all the time the spindle is on, so who knows :)
[17:43:41] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Right, but also might need to operate sepeately for maintenance purposes
[17:44:16] <SWPadnos> do you mean like the vac?
[17:44:30] <JymmmEMC> yes
[17:44:35] <SWPadnos> ie, "I'm cleaning with the PC off, so I want to turn on the mist"?
[17:44:37] <SWPadnos> weird
[17:45:01] <SWPadnos> are you expecting lube to be an outlet like the spindle/vac?
[17:45:31] <JymmmEMC> maybe flush out old coolant, etc.
[17:45:31] <JymmmEMC> replace with new, use the pump to drain out, etc
[17:45:43] <SWPadnos> ok, "lube system maintenance" :)
[17:46:11] <SWPadnos> that should be relatively rare, and you could always fire up the PC and do an M<whatever> to turn coolant on/off
[17:46:14] <JymmmEMC> If I didn't want the BRB to kill all, it really woudn't matter.
[17:46:23] <SWPadnos> or, if it's a normal wall plug, just plug it into the wall
[17:46:51] <SWPadnos> lube and vacuum aren't really safety issues, though they may as well be killed with e-stop
[17:48:13] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I was also thinking, of using BRB as old fashoine stop/off. No real reason not to use it in that way that I can think of.
[17:48:37] <SWPadnos> ?
[17:48:51] <SWPadnos> instead of a master power switch?
[17:48:51] <cradek> what is BRB?
[17:48:56] <SWPadnos> big red button
[17:49:12] <SWPadnos> like BRS on old IBM PCs :)
[17:49:49] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Master Power Switch would become Manual/OFF/Auto + Grn START/BRB
[17:49:55] <SWPadnos> cradek, do you still have that link to the little square AC outlets you used?
[17:50:06] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, hmmm. I don't like it
[17:50:21] <cradek> SWPadnos: no I just had them
[17:50:28] <SWPadnos> ok
[17:50:43] <ALS> on my machine I have manual control of all functions and I use relay logic to not let emc controler come out of estop in manual mode
[17:50:50] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: due to the three way switch?
[17:52:00] <jepler> maybe
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/ACS-39/915/SNAP-IN_NEMA_15-5_RECEPTACLE_.html or another product on
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category/915/A.C._Sockets.html
[17:52:46] <SWPadnos> hmmm. that could have been it
[17:52:56] <SWPadnos> thanks
[17:54:59] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, I wouldn't assume that everything should have power removed for estop
[17:55:19] <SWPadnos> it depends on the drives - if the OEM650 can "brake", then it probably needs power to do so
[17:55:31] <SWPadnos> at least control power
[17:56:11] <SWPadnos> conceptually, the master switch should turn on the controls (which could include the computer)
[17:56:32] <SWPadnos> the e-stop should control power to anything that could be dangerous - motion, spindle, laser - whatever
[17:56:52] <SWPadnos> you wouldn't want to shut off the PC for an e-stop
[17:57:24] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I really dont plan on having the control box turn on/off the computer.
[17:57:55] <SWPadnos> I know - this is conceptual talk here - there may be things (ssuch asthe breakout board) that you want to keep powered even during e-stop
[17:59:27] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Ok, I'll keep looking for a panel mount toggle breaker - just was having a hard time finding a 15A one.
[17:59:46] <JymmmEMC> 20A I have already, with finger guard.
[17:59:54] <SWPadnos> use the 20A then
[18:00:10] <SWPadnos> the breaker had better not be an actual safety device - it's probably too slow
[18:00:42] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: That was my intension. Thus why I was looking for a 15A one.
[18:01:01] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: or should I just use a .22LR =)
[18:01:16] <SWPadnos> you have a 12A spindle, and a 3-4A vacuum, plus whatever the controls take, plus the motors/drives
[18:01:28] <SWPadnos> you probably need the 20A breaker
[18:01:49] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Ah, remember I have a speed control on the dustvac to reduce the draw.
[18:01:59] <SWPadnos> yes
[18:03:17] <SWPadnos> 12A for the router + 3xstepper motor and drive + the controls (contactors take a few watts each when on) + shop-vac at 25% = 20A breaker ;)
[18:03:53] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: You forgot the 4A for the PC+crt
[18:04:06] <SWPadnos> is that going to be on the master breaker?
[18:04:21] <SWPadnos> or just the same circuit?
[18:04:26] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Same circuit on the 100A panel
[18:04:30] <SWPadnos> ok
[18:05:05] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: So, were up to 24A on a 20A circuit =)
[18:05:22] <SWPadnos> I guess there could be problems then ;)
[18:06:15] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I slow down the spindle to 20K or so, which drops its run draw (just have to deal with startup), plus the speed control to reduce the draw on the ductvac from 7A to just under 5A
[18:06:42] <alex_joni> JymmmEMC: that calls out for troubke
[18:06:45] <alex_joni> trouble even
[18:06:45] <SWPadnos> yep
[18:07:01] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: Yep =)
[18:07:26] <alex_joni> I wouldn't think about putting anything less than a 32A circuit there..
[18:07:40] <SWPadnos> I'd say that you do *not* want a manual "on" setting for both spindle and vac (and lube)
[18:07:48] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: Out of my control - I reant.
[18:07:56] <JymmmEMC> rent
[18:08:12] <SWPadnos> if you forget they're on, and flip the master breaker, pop goes the breaker (in hte panel)
[18:08:52] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: lets forget the lube, it was just a thought for future expansion (thinking ahead is all)
[18:09:12] <SWPadnos> ok
[18:09:47] <JymmmEMC> There is 220VAC in the garage (for the dryer) on dual 40A breakers I could steal, but well, you know.
[18:11:39] <SWPadnos> if you have to argue with the GF about whether to continue machining something or wash your clothes, you're in a bad situation
[18:12:08] <JymmmEMC> heh, yep. But she already knows not to run anything while the machine is going.
[18:12:14] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:14:12] <JymmmEMC> I had to map out the panel a long time ago... I've done alot of electrical rewiring around here already replacing ancient outlets and wall switches that were arching.
[18:14:12] <JymmmEMC> arcing
[18:14:12] <JymmmEMC> contractor packs ftw!!!
[18:14:52] <JymmmEMC> In the garage, they had a 3 prog outlet, but never connecte the ground wire that already existed in the gang box... WTH?!
[18:14:54] <SWPadnos> yep. I'm always amazed at how little electrical stuff costs - like $1 or so for an outlet
[18:15:02] <SWPadnos> oops
[18:15:06] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: $0.50 baby
[18:15:20] <SWPadnos> I usually get the industrial grade ;)
[18:15:48] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: If it was my place, there would be a 100A panel for the garage alone.
[18:16:07] <SWPadnos> don't bet on it - it gets expensive to add a second feed to your house ...
[18:16:38] <SWPadnos> I was as unlucky as possible in that regard - the panel is literally on the opposite corner of the house from where the machine shop had to go
[18:17:10] <SWPadnos> I ended up running about 100 feet of 8ga out to a sub-panel in the garage
[18:18:03] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: but worth it, and you only have to do it once.
[18:18:19] <SWPadnos> yep
[18:19:22] <JymmmEMC> OT Does the "Banging" solution sound right?
http://www.doityourself.com/stry/waterhammer
[18:23:44] <SWPadnos> interesting - digikey has similar outlets (that may be higher quality), for less than All Electronics
[18:23:50] <SWPadnos> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=Q227-ND
[18:24:29] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, could be right
[18:24:48] <alex_joni> -win 12
[18:24:51] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: k, can't hurt to try. I have a water wrench
[18:24:52] <alex_joni> grr
[18:25:25] <SWPadnos> I suppose I should go get the trash can before it's buried in snow
[18:27:14] <SWPadnos> hey JymmmEMC - take a look at this:
http://www.drobo.com/products_droboshare.aspx
[18:27:21] <SWPadnos> I think that'll be at MacWorld
[18:27:40] <alex_joni> yay drobo :)
[18:27:43] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:27:52] <SWPadnos> the NAS interface is new and looks cool
[18:28:01] <alex_joni> they have NAS now?
[18:28:08] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: build it or external?
[18:28:09] <SWPadnos> basically converts the drobo from USB2 to gigE
[18:28:16] <SWPadnos> ?
[18:28:38] <JymmmEMC> is eth built inside, or external to it
[18:28:50] <SWPadnos> look at the link, silly! :)
[18:29:07] <SWPadnos> it's a separate unit that you plug the drobo into, which has the ethernet interface
[18:29:38] <JymmmEMC> $200 for a usb to eth adapter, you on crack?!
[18:29:43] <SWPadnos> no
[18:30:03] <SWPadnos> that's the NAS box
[18:36:02] <alex_joni> With DroboShare you can choose NTFS (Windows), HFS+ (Mac OS X), EXT3 (Linux) or FAT32 (Various)
[18:36:48] <alex_joni> that sure is worth 200$ to add to the drobo
[18:36:59] <alex_joni> along with adding two drobos
[18:37:33] <JymmmEMC> http://www.thecus.com/products_over.php?cid=12&pid=32&PHPSESSID=89f8ea0c052a84f9d45876293e33753c
[18:38:05] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: but not at the same time I seriously doubt
[18:38:45] <SWPadnos> yes - "shares 1 or 2 drobos"
[18:38:54] <SWPadnos> we can take a look at MacWorld
[18:41:21] <JymmmEMC> I have this thing againest external PS's
[18:48:22] <alex_joni> DroboShare can host up to two Drobos, allowing capacities of up to 8TB of storage today, scaling to 32TB as larger disk drives become available.
[18:48:23] <fenn> argh digikey uses flash now? wtf!!
[18:48:49] <JymmmEMC> fenn: get with this century already
[18:49:45] <JymmmEMC> fenn: If you dont like flash because of the ads, thats one thing (and easily fixed), if it's just because it's flash, I'd like to know why
[18:50:29] <fenn> flash is slow an crappy and fucks up every little thing because it's non-standard
[18:50:33] <SWPadnos> flash is rarely useful in the situations where it's used
[18:50:46] <SWPadnos> they have bad support for 64-bit OSes, and Linux specifically
[18:50:52] <anonimasu> fenn: I think it works surprisingly well
[18:51:15] <fenn> i'm browsing a catalog, i dont want some stupid page animation script failing and taking down the entire site
[18:51:35] <SWPadnos> fenn, there should be a link to the "classic search"
[18:51:39] <SWPadnos> or some such
[18:53:37] <fenn> nope
[18:53:45] <JymmmEMC> Flash is the only format that I know of that you can combine, text, graphics (both raster and vector), sounds, video and combine them all into a single-fiel format for easy transport. Hell you can even render PS directory inside a swf file. and even convert it to an aexecutable and publish it on a cd/dvd without any installation to the client machien if you wanted to.
[18:54:09] <SWPadnos> that assumes a lot about the client machine
[18:54:12] <JymmmEMC> It can even embed a PDF file + viewer
[18:54:26] <anonimasu> fenn: the boom while browsing pages is something I've only seen java do
[18:54:26] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: p2 and up that I've tried it on.
[18:54:37] <SWPadnos> it's easy when you stick to the Windows and Mac world, not so easy when you go to Linux
[18:54:48] <fenn> oh great, so instead of just giving me a pdf file, i have to look at it inside your stupid flash animation, assuming it actually works
[18:54:52] <anonimasu> well, linux still dosent have decent graphics drivers.
[18:55:01] <SWPadnos> and they don't publish the specs, so it's hard to make an open-source viewer
[18:55:04] <SWPadnos> sure it does
[18:55:11] <anonimasu> fenn: flash works for 95% of the people on the web..
[18:55:19] <JymmmEMC> fenn: flash rendering a pdf fiel is actually far faster than most pdf readers actually.
[18:55:30] <fenn> fascism works for 96% of the dictatorships out there..
[18:55:31] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Yes, they do.
[18:55:51] <SWPadnos> graphics drivers are mostly independent of the applications that use them - you can use xorg/xfree86, you can buy an x server
[18:55:54] <anonimasu> fenn: stop fucking around, if you like it use a textmode browser..
[18:56:04] <fenn> anonimasu: that's my point, i can't
[18:56:05] <anonimasu> fenn: you are just dicscontent because it's not opensource
[18:56:17] <fenn> there is an open source flash player, it just sucks
[18:56:18] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, ok - the main thing I've heard about flash is "why can't I get it for my 64-bit Linux system" :)
[18:56:36] <fenn> i happen to be using the non-free plugin fwiw
[18:56:41] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Hell, there's a lot of apps that aren't 64b aware, not just flash.
[18:56:55] <SWPadnos> anonimasu, this particular complaint is that the database search function is in a flash app - that's an unnecessary complication
[18:57:06] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: agreed that's stupid
[18:57:17] <SWPadnos> I saw that version once, and I hated it
[18:57:23] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: but flash certainly dosent suck :p
[18:57:27] <SWPadnos> luckily, they did have a classic search link at the time
[18:57:32] <fenn> actually its the catalog page that's only available in flash
[18:57:38] <SWPadnos> as I said, flash is often used in places where it's inappropriate
[18:57:44] <JymmmEMC> They're offloading the UI to the client via flash, Which is far faster than using AJAX which gets dawg slow
[18:57:59] <fenn> a catalog page doesn't have any UI!
[18:58:03] <SWPadnos> exactly
[18:58:36] <SWPadnos> fenn, go back to digikey.com, and there should be a link for the old search
[18:59:35] <fenn> its not search that's a problem its the catalog page
[18:59:45] <JymmmEMC> click to zoom
[18:59:46] <fenn> anyway. i can download the entire catalog as pdf
[18:59:53] <SWPadnos> oh - why use the catalog page? :)
[18:59:58] <JymmmEMC> or if you can read 3py type
[19:00:05] <JymmmEMC> pt
[19:00:30] <fenn> because otherwise it's hard to find similar products from just a product information page
[19:00:35] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, this shows what flash does for you:
http://dkc1.digikey.com/us/en/pdf/Current.html
[19:01:03] <SWPadnos> fenn, there's usually a link on the product page for more info, which will have a link to a single-page PDF of the page that product is on
[19:01:08] <fenn> mostly i'm just disappointed because i thought the people at digikey were smarter than that
[19:01:29] <SWPadnos> they were smart enough to get rid of the flash-based search in a hurry
[19:01:47] <SWPadnos> I thikn it was there for less than one day before the "old version" link was put up
[19:02:00] <fenn> no, the single-page pdf is what i'm whining about
[19:02:06] <SWPadnos> ?
[19:02:14] <fenn> er, lack of it
[19:02:25] <SWPadnos> what product are you looking at?
[19:02:35] <fenn> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=Q227-ND
[19:02:37] <SWPadnos> if it's in the catalog, there's always been a link to the catalog page
[19:03:04] <SWPadnos> oh. they screwed that up. damn, I hadn't noticed
[19:03:53] <JymmmEMC> fenn: Jsut download the whole catalog
http://pdfcatalog.digikey.com/T081/DigiKey.pdf
[19:04:02] <SWPadnos> wow - totally screwed itup - how friggin annoying
[19:04:23] <SWPadnos> if I could use my own PDF reader, I could do things like - I don't know - drag the damned page around
[19:04:38] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: what reader are you using?
[19:04:40] <JymmmEMC> fenn: Eeeesh it's still there
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=PSL-CB-ND
[19:05:08] <SWPadnos> I normally use acrobat reader onthis PC, but that stupid flash app doesn't actually let me do that
[19:05:10] <JymmmEMC> Just use the search in the top right corner
[19:05:40] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, now click the link for technical/catalog information
[19:05:56] <SWPadnos> oh - that one has no catalog page
[19:06:09] <SWPadnos> try the Q227-ND one
[19:06:22] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I did, and got a link to a pdf
[19:06:33] <SWPadnos> you'll see the problem. it isn't necessarily flash, it's the stupid UI they've decided to give us for looking at PDF files
[19:06:33] <fenn> that's a datasheet
[19:06:37] <SWPadnos> yeah, click the PDF link
[19:06:47] <fenn> (at least they dont have flash animations for datasheets.. yet)
[19:06:51] <SWPadnos> http://digi-key.dirxion.com/Main.asp?from=emailafriend&pagenav=&bookid=1&pageindex=1467
[19:06:58] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I did, and I got the pdf
[19:07:07] <SWPadnos> for the catalog page, not the datasheet
[19:07:28] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos:
http://www.panduit.com/products/PartDrawings/103955.pdf
[19:07:41] <SWPadnos> no - that's not a catalog page, that's a datasheet
[19:08:16] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: what do you want the page the item is on?
[19:08:30] <SWPadnos> as fenn pointed out, it's easier to see related items
[19:08:33] <fenn> this particular product doesn't have a catalog page
[19:09:45] <SWPadnos> to see the stupid app they decided to make me use, go to digikey.com, search for Q227-ND, click the technical link, then click the catalog page link
[19:09:50] <JymmmEMC> ok i see what you mean now
[19:09:59] <SWPadnos> bad interface, huh?
[19:10:17] <SWPadnos> you can only use the scroll bars to move around the page
[19:10:23] <SWPadnos> (or search, I guess)
[19:10:31] <SWPadnos> dragging does soem zoom function it seems
[19:10:34] <JymmmEMC> There's NEXT/PREV at the top
[19:10:44] <fenn> and it's really slow and eradicates any handicapped accessibility features
[19:10:51] <fenn> but besides that.. it's FLASH
[19:11:11] <SWPadnos> that's page by page - what if I zoom in so I can read a diagram, and then want to drag the page down to the price lists?
[19:11:38] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: what about it?
[19:11:50] <SWPadnos> bzzzt! can't do that except with the scroll bars - there's no equivalent of the "hand" tool in adobe reader
[19:12:05] <alex_joni> or middle-click in any CAD app
[19:12:38] <cradek> haha "any"
[19:12:39] <SWPadnos> ie, they decided that whatever my chosen application is is just wrong (sometimes I use Adobe, other times Foxit reader), and I have to use their less functional system that I don't know how to use yet
[19:12:51] <JymmmEMC> Well, I guess you no longer are going to order from digikey
[19:13:12] <JymmmEMC> I do admit that what THEY did, is totally fucked up from a UI perspective.
[19:13:14] <fenn> digikey's big thing is customer satisfaction
[19:13:17] <SWPadnos> I sure as hell can't use their online catalog as well now
[19:13:32] <alex_joni> cradek: s/any/most/
[19:13:33] <JymmmEMC> Well, the WAY they did it that is.
[19:13:37] <alex_joni> s/most/some/
[19:13:46] <alex_joni> s/some/at least a few :P/
[19:13:51] <SWPadnos> yes - it's been my experience that there are very few places where flash is used well, it's usually used to look - err - flashy
[19:14:08] <SWPadnos> s/some/alex's/ :)
[19:14:21] <cradek> wow, digikey used to be the best for searching etc
[19:14:24] <alex_joni> actually the one I use has a different mouse option
[19:14:28] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: :P
[19:14:36] <SWPadnos> yeah - the search still works, but the catalog is unusable now
[19:14:40] <SWPadnos> I think I'll email them
[19:14:40] <alex_joni> care for your oppinion..
[19:14:42] <alex_joni> http://eneas.juve.ro/~juve/stuff/cpu.PNG
[19:14:47] <alex_joni> is that sign for a needed upgrade?
[19:15:01] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Well, just download the pdf catalog.
[19:15:10] <SWPadnos> I have the printed catalog, thank you :)
[19:15:11] <JymmmEMC> 81MB
[19:15:25] <fenn> alex_joni: cool how'd you log that info?
[19:15:43] <SWPadnos> alex_joni, no, that shows that you're hardly using what you have. get back to work!
[19:15:43] <alex_joni> fenn: mrtg
[19:15:56] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: well.. I'm not that sure
[19:16:13] <alex_joni> main:~# uptime
[19:16:13] <alex_joni> 21:13:38 up 139 days, 11:09, 3 users, load average: 0.23, 0.27, 0.22
[19:16:24] <alex_joni> the load average is still fairly low
[19:16:28] <SWPadnos> I like the 30-minute average graph though - shows regular work hours :)
[19:16:32] <alex_joni> but there are times when it goes up beyond 1
[19:16:42] <cradek> 13:16:38 up 117 days, 4:19, 14 users, load average: 11.63, 14.25, 8.58
[19:16:45] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: Exactly, so GET YOUR ASS BACK TO WORK till it's solid green!
[19:16:46] <SWPadnos> looks like a vacation in week 51 and 00
[19:17:00] <cradek> send your machine here, we need it
[19:17:01] <SWPadnos> err - 52 and 00
[19:17:05] <alex_joni> cradek: ouch.. is that still useable?
[19:17:11] <cradek> oh yeah it's fine
[19:17:25] <cradek> it's always like that
[19:17:32] <alex_joni> this is a 2 x Xeon PIII @ 933MHz
[19:17:49] <alex_joni> it does file sharing (samba), and IMAP for the local subnet
[19:18:07] <cradek> sounds like it's probably plenty then
[19:18:10] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: heh, add a graph for connections =)
[19:18:23] <alex_joni> JymmmEMC: I have.. they're always connected :P
[19:19:35] <alex_joni> proxy:~# uptime
[19:19:35] <alex_joni> 21:08:57 up 175 days, 17:09, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
[19:19:44] <alex_joni> I like the load here better :)
[19:19:57] <Roguish> alex_joni: ciao.
[19:20:02] <alex_joni> 'lo
[19:20:17] <alex_joni> ok.. 'nuff for today
[19:20:25] <alex_joni> see you guys later (or mayeb tomorrow)
[19:20:34] <Roguish> hey i'm setting up a new install in my office. did a cvs check out of trunk... compile says no tcl
[19:21:32] <Roguish> also, no rtai..... did i get something wrong?
[19:21:49] <Roguish> installed from liveCD 2.2.2
[19:22:37] <Roguish> anyone? am i missing a simple pointer or something?
[19:22:45] <acemi> what "uname -a" says?
[19:23:21] <cradek> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2
[19:23:33] <cradek> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#On_Ubuntu_5_10_and_6_06_from_source
[19:24:00] <cradek> just making sure: you do know you already have emc2 and don't have to compile it right?
[19:24:37] <Roguish> probably that 'build-dep' thing. i'll try.
[19:34:43] <skunkworks> hmm - the motherboards I bought don't support the williamette cpu... - guess what I have 4 of..
[19:39:13] <jepler> skunkworks: argh
[19:39:57] <skunkworks> I guess I didn't research it hard enough..'
[19:44:32] <Roguish> cradek: thanks. it's rolling through now.
[21:08:45] <alex_joni> 'lo all
[21:09:57] <SWPadnos> hiya
[21:10:02] <lewin1> lewin1 is now known as lewing_
[21:25:12] <BigJohnT> hi uall
[21:43:18] <alex_joni> hi BigJohnT
[21:47:24] <BigJohnT> Hi Alex!
[22:34:30] <BigJohnT> I love the sound of chips flying...
[22:36:13] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: machine running already?
[22:36:34] <BigJohnT> running my cnc mill making parts
[22:36:39] <alex_joni> nice
[22:37:57] <BigJohnT> short production run of exhaust diverters in 6061 for air tools
[22:39:23] <alex_joni> cool..
[22:39:29] <alex_joni> well.. I'm off to bed..
[22:39:35] <alex_joni> good night all
[22:39:36] <BigJohnT> good night
[22:43:15] <micges> good night
[22:46:40] <micges> where to send Polish translation of AXIS and interpreter ?
[22:55:12] <tomp> micges: "if you are a developer, simply check in the .po and .msg files after you have updated and tested them. If you are not a developer, then e-mail a developer the updated version of these files. .pot file.po file pattern"
[22:55:22] <tomp> from
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Internationalization
[22:55:58] <tomp> hmm, any dev's got an email addy for micges?
[23:06:41] <micges> can I send to emc-devel list ?
[23:07:39] <tomp> micges: i dont think it will allows file attachment
[23:10:22] <tomp> maybe you could upload to
http://pastebin.ca and post the urls here
[23:14:02] <micges> I downloaded trunk few days ago and I translated only .po file. Is this enough ?
[23:14:59] <tomp> I am not familiar with the process, the only information I found is posted above, sorry
[23:15:13] <micges> ok
[23:25:09] <cradek> micges: you can send mail to emc-developers if you join it
[23:25:34] <cradek> attachments are accepted if they are below a certain size, which I think is 24kB
[23:25:50] <cradek> that would be a great way to submit your translation
[23:25:56] <cradek> and thanks so much for doing it
[23:26:02] <GNieport> Hello all. I have a HAL-related question if anyone would be willing to entertain it.
[23:26:20] <cradek> GNieport: fire away, you can always just ask
[23:26:23] <lerman> Put the translation on the wiki and send out mail telling us about it.
[23:26:49] <cradek> some more information here if you translated AXIS:
http://axis.unpy.net/translations
[23:27:08] <lerman> (Or -- if you know how -- check it in to the source tree).
[23:27:12] <GNieport> thanks. I am setting up a new machine and using HAL to help tune the PID loops. I am having a bit of trouble with syntax when adding signals and pins.
[23:27:46] <cradek> I think "net" is the most useful command
[23:27:53] <GNieport> This is 2.2.2 btw. i cannot get "newsig foo float" to work
[23:28:18] <GNieport> well, net did work for the floats, but now not for the bits.
[23:28:36] <GNieport> let me post an example
[23:28:51] <cradek> ok, please use
http://pastebin.ca if it's over a line or two
[23:29:20] <GNieport> "net testbittwo<= m5i20.0.in-04" fails for invalid argument.
[23:29:29] <GNieport> er, correct spacing
[23:29:52] <cradek> spaces around the <= ?
[23:30:07] <GNieport> yes.
[23:30:31] <seb_kuzminsky> GNieport: what's the error message?
[23:30:56] <cradek> halcmd: net testbittwo <= motion.spindle-on
[23:30:56] <cradek> halcmd:
[23:30:58] <GNieport> one sec
[23:33:56] <GNieport> http://pastebin.ca/855389
[23:34:20] <GNieport> sorry, gui crawls
[23:35:04] <cradek> try halcmd at the shell, instead of using this gui tool
[23:35:12] <GNieport> cradek: is this cpmmand a seggestion for me to try?
[23:35:21] <GNieport> okay
[23:35:33] <cradek> I'm just showing a similar thing worked for me, just like you had it
[23:35:39] <GNieport> aha
[23:35:52] <cradek> you are using halshow right?
[23:36:10] <GNieport> yes, I opened it from within Axis.
[23:36:24] <cradek> ok, at a shell do halcmd -kf
[23:36:36] <cradek> then you'll get a halcmd prompt which is what I used
[23:37:25] <cradek> fwiw, I like to tune an axis with a gcode program that has a bunch of short g0 back and forth with g4 pauses... I don't think it's worth the trouble to try to set up position steps
[23:37:50] <GNieport> <stdin>:0: pin 'm5i20.0.in-04' was already linked
[23:37:53] <GNieport> a clue
[23:37:56] <GNieport> lol
[23:37:59] <seb_kuzminsky> heh
[23:38:26] <cradek> ok, that's a much better error!
[23:38:33] <GNieport> cradek: yes, just wanted to verify the dac was working before tearing up a ballscrew
[23:38:35] <cradek> (a pin can only be hooked to one signal)
[23:39:15] <GNieport> i should be good now, thanks again
[23:39:22] <cradek> welcome
[23:39:47] <GNieport> the verbose error messages help a layman like me
[23:40:21] <cradek> yes it helps if they are remotely related to the actual problem too!
[23:40:51] <GNieport> unlinkp m5i20.0.in-04
[23:40:51] <GNieport> succeeds
[23:41:11] <GNieport> afk...
[23:42:53] <seb_kuzminsky> later y'all
[23:49:03] <micges> good night all
