#emc | Logs for 2007-12-09

[00:00:03] <cradek> you can be sure there'd still be at least 11 by the time they learn
[00:00:09] <eric_U> I say let them play on the darn thing, it's nearly impossible to hurt yourself with it anyway
[00:00:30] <eric_U> the coolest toy is the elevator that rises up out of the floor
[00:00:39] <eric_U> my kids used to love that one
[00:02:20] <eric_U> some stupid schmuck took the bolts out of the lock hasp
[00:02:35] <eric_U> and then didn't put them back in so the rest of us couldn't use that trick any more
[00:05:02] <jmkasunich> done - hearing protectors are a wonderfull thing ;-)
[00:05:23] <jmkasunich> far straighter and smoother than the bandsaw too
[00:05:26] <jmkasunich> thanks BigJohnT
[00:06:05] <BigJohnT> no problem and I bet you have some chips in your underwear LOL
[00:06:21] <jmkasunich> pockets and hair anyway
[00:06:24] <BigJohnT> I always end up with a few down my shirt
[00:07:01] <BigJohnT> The big trick is to have the min number of teeth in the material to prevent heat build up and gumming
[00:07:26] <jmkasunich> since this is so thin, I went the other way
[00:07:34] <jmkasunich> just barely raised the blade above the table
[00:08:08] <BigJohnT> it didn't try and raise the material up as you cut?
[00:08:33] <jmkasunich> nope
[00:08:37] <BigJohnT> cool
[00:09:06] <jmkasunich> the only way it would lift the material is if the trailing edge of the blade was trying to cut
[00:10:34] <BigJohnT> the more teeth in contact with the material the more force it takes to hold it down.
[00:10:59] <jmkasunich> the blade is pulling it down
[00:13:02] <BigJohnT> if it is high enough the force needed is mostly pushing as you lower the blade the angle of cut gets real shallow and tends to push the material up out of the blade.
[00:13:25] <BigJohnT> what thickness did you cut
[00:13:39] <jmkasunich> 3/32
[00:14:29] <BigJohnT> that's pretty thin, I've cut up to 3/4 and when you get a little thicker the forces become more pronouced
[00:15:01] <BigJohnT> 1/4 is pretty easy but 1/2 gets to be a bear if the blade is not all the way up
[00:15:21] <jmkasunich> ah, that I can understand
[00:16:45] <BigJohnT> glad you got it cut
[00:17:22] <BigJohnT> well talk to you guys later gotta go eat dinner
[00:21:03] <alex_joni> good night all
[00:22:43] <jmkasunich> night alex
[00:22:50] <jmkasunich> time for me to find some dinner too
[00:50:09] <jmkasunich> cradek: you around?
[00:53:34] <cradek> yes
[00:54:18] <jmkasunich> what kind of two sided tape did you use for cutting PCBs?
[00:54:46] <jmkasunich> I'm gonna get some tape to hold the rubber keyboard to the mounting plate, might as well get something that I can use in the future
[00:54:59] <cradek> I think it's for holding down tiles
[00:55:14] <cradek> the kind that works the best has filaments in it
[00:55:44] <jmkasunich> you have any brand name or product name?
[00:55:45] <cradek> has a little more thickness than the non-filament kind
[00:55:58] <cradek> one sec
[00:58:12] <cradek> 'manco' - has a picture of a baby duck? thing?
[00:58:31] <jmkasunich> that sounds like "duck" tape
[01:00:47] <jmkasunich> http://www.stickwithhenkel.com/ <-- formerly manco
[01:02:09] <jmkasunich> this one? http://www.duckproducts.com/products/detail.asp?catid=1&subid=7&plid=729
[01:02:22] <jmkasunich> or http://www.duckproducts.com/products/detail.asp?catid=1&subid=7&plid=728
[01:02:55] <jmkasunich> ah, maybe this one: http://www.duckproducts.com/products/detail.asp?catid=1&subid=7&plid=27
[01:02:59] <jmkasunich> double sided, fiberglass
[01:04:45] <cradek> yes I'm sure that last one is it
[01:04:53] <cradek> the green box looks familiar
[01:05:01] <cradek> (the box of mine is long gone)
[01:05:39] <jmkasunich> any markings on the inside of the cardboard core?
[01:05:49] <jmkasunich> or jsut the duck?
[01:05:58] <cradek> just the brand name/address and duck
[01:06:08] <jmkasunich> ok
[01:06:55] <jmkasunich> thats probably a specialty store thing isn't it - carpet or tile store?
[01:07:06] <jmkasunich> or just go to home depot?
[01:08:27] <cradek> I've found it at several generic hardware stores
[01:08:36] <jmkasunich> ok
[01:08:38] <jmkasunich> thanks
[01:08:59] <cradek> sure
[01:12:38] <jmkasunich> I'm sure I'll discover something else I need
[01:12:42] <toastydeath> http://www.stanleyvidmar.com/Vidmar/Products/Vertical+Lift+Systems
[01:12:45] <jmkasunich> right after I get back
[01:12:51] <toastydeath> i can't figure out how you'd keep the trays upright
[01:12:53] <jmkasunich> or right after they close, more likely
[01:12:53] <toastydeath> in that system
[01:25:07] <toastydeath> ha i figured it out
[01:35:42] <jmkasunich> got tape!
[02:06:40] <Dogfishguzzler> Whats shakin in here on a saturday night?
[02:10:50] <SWPadnos> not much
[02:12:06] <Dogfishguzzler> I've been at the body worlds exhibit all day.
[02:12:21] <Dogfishguzzler> Looking at dead plastified peel open bodies.
[02:12:25] <SWPadnos> is that a car thing or the plasticized people thing?
[02:12:28] <SWPadnos> ah - that one
[02:12:35] <Dogfishguzzler> It was pretty cool
[02:12:40] <SWPadnos> what city are you in/near?
[02:12:41] <Dogfishguzzler> Made me wanna quit smoking
[02:12:46] <Dogfishguzzler> Charlotte
[02:12:48] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:13:00] <SWPadnos> NC, I assume?
[02:13:07] <Dogfishguzzler> Yeah, sorry
[02:13:20] <SWPadnos> np - I figured you didn't mean Charlotte, VT
[02:13:25] <Dogfishguzzler> lol
[02:13:27] <Dogfishguzzler> nope
[02:13:54] <Dogfishguzzler> Where are you? How did you hear about body worlds?
[02:14:10] <SWPadnos> I'm in Essex Junction VT (slightly northeast of Charlotte)
[02:14:25] <SWPadnos> I've seen the Body thing in several cities I've visited in the last couple of years
[02:14:35] <SWPadnos> ads anyway, haven't been to the exhibit
[02:14:50] <Dogfishguzzler> You should check it out
[02:15:03] <SWPadnos> yep - just have to do it on a "good day"
[02:15:15] <Dogfishguzzler> That Gunther dude is gotta be one morbid somebiatch
[02:15:24] <SWPadnos> it's a little odd to consider that you're looking at dead people, not plastic models of them
[02:15:45] <Dogfishguzzler> Yeah it is odd.
[02:15:56] <Dogfishguzzler> They arent in glass either, you can youch them
[02:16:00] <SWPadnos> ewww
[02:16:04] <Dogfishguzzler> Yeah
[02:16:07] <Dogfishguzzler> I didnt
[02:16:13] <Dogfishguzzler> But you could
[02:16:17] <SWPadnos> ewww
[02:16:19] <SWPadnos> :)
[02:16:20] <Dogfishguzzler> lol
[02:17:17] <Dogfishguzzler> Man I told the ol' lady about your servos. I think I'm gonna have to buy a few off ya for experimental purposes.
[02:18:01] <Dogfishguzzler> I need to find a source of cheap industrial scrap/
[02:18:08] <Dogfishguzzler> old ball screws etc
[02:18:40] <SWPadnos> I have some acme screws from a Bridgeport, plus I think I have a couple of short ballscrews
[02:18:53] <SWPadnos> don't have a clue what I'd sell them for though
[02:19:13] <Dogfishguzzler> Well most folks seem to think highly of their ball screws.
[02:19:37] <Dogfishguzzler> Not a cheap component.
[02:20:01] <SWPadnos> no
[02:20:14] <SWPadnos> that's why I have the acme screws, I put ballscrews in my BP
[02:20:42] <Dogfishguzzler> I just love having some of everything.
[02:20:55] <Dogfishguzzler> I could be a white Fred Sanford.
[02:21:01] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:21:11] <SWPadnos> or black, for all I know
[02:21:19] <Dogfishguzzler> lol yep
[02:21:24] <Dogfishguzzler> could be
[02:22:23] <Dogfishguzzler> I think I might spend some time tonight trying to coax some coherent control out of these floppy motors I have.
[02:22:44] <Dogfishguzzler> I still dont have my drive chips.
[02:22:56] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/cgi-bin/blosxom/shoptask/got-keys-12-08-07.html
[02:23:00] <Dogfishguzzler> Local biz sucks. I'm ordering online from now on.
[02:23:05] <jmkasunich> its starting to look like a CNC
[02:23:32] <Dogfishguzzler> It's the computer lmao
[02:23:43] <Dogfishguzzler> The computer is starting to look like a cnc
[02:24:02] <jmkasunich> the computer is still on the bench 8 feet away
[02:24:06] <SWPadnos> it's even almost grayish-metallic colored
[02:24:17] <Dogfishguzzler> haha
[02:24:26] <jmkasunich> computer goes in the box on the back
[02:24:46] <jmkasunich> you can see the X axis stepper at the bottom of that pic
[02:24:58] <eric_U> is it trying to hide?
[02:25:01] <jmkasunich> 2:1 belt reduction is in the yellow box
[02:25:23] <jmkasunich> the round hole is where the leadscrew clutch/reverse lever used to be
[02:25:31] <jmkasunich> (when it used change gears for power feed)
[02:25:52] <Dogfishguzzler> jmk, what do you think of that machine? Is it rigid enough to be useful?
[02:26:02] <jmkasunich> define usefull ;-)
[02:26:28] <jmkasunich> people do usefull things with sherlines that you can pick up with one hand
[02:26:28] <eric_U> all machines can be useful
[02:26:28] <jmkasunich> this is more rigid than that
[02:26:29] <jmkasunich> but it is NOT a rigid machine by real machine standards
[02:26:33] <Dogfishguzzler> Well yeah, are you a machinist by trade?
[02:26:33] <toastydeath> i've seen some ridiculous setups on those machines
[02:26:40] <eric_U> I've made a bridgeport whip in the wind like a noodle
[02:26:42] <jmkasunich> no, I'm an electrical engineer
[02:26:46] <Dogfishguzzler> okay
[02:26:49] <toastydeath> i am
[02:27:02] <jmkasunich> however, I've done enough work on the side using that machine to pay for it about 5 times over
[02:27:04] <Dogfishguzzler> Have you used a shoptask toasty?
[02:27:04] <toastydeath> and dmess is, if he were in here
[02:27:08] <toastydeath> no sir
[02:27:21] <toastydeath> googling it
[02:27:29] <jmkasunich> it isn't a bad lathe
[02:27:37] <Dogfishguzzler> People keep telling me I'm gonna kill those little machines case Im used to big heavy duty stuff.
[02:28:03] <toastydeath> if you are used to machines that a manufacturing firm would have used at any point in history
[02:28:15] <Dogfishguzzler> Heres the one I hope to have by too long. http://www.lathemaster.com/LATHEMASTER8x14Lathe.htm
[02:28:17] <toastydeath> then yes, no matter how great of a small machine you buy, you are going to be a bit hard on it
[02:28:20] <jmkasunich> Dogfishguzzler: this was made on that machine: http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/_2001_retired_files/Worm04.jpg
[02:28:42] <jmkasunich> everything except the gear teeth, I did that on the van norman
[02:28:45] <Dogfishguzzler> Right on jmk, nice work.
[02:29:12] <toastydeath> dogfishguzzler: what's your price range
[02:29:25] <Dogfishguzzler> Right now a grand.
[02:29:28] <toastydeath> oh.
[02:29:32] <Dogfishguzzler> lol
[02:29:33] <Dogfishguzzler> yeah
[02:29:53] <Dogfishguzzler> Ive spent ALOT of time looking at small lathes and that one has gotten great reviews
[02:30:13] <Dogfishguzzler> Plus it's american made and damn near tool room quality.
[02:30:20] <toastydeath> er
[02:30:33] <Dogfishguzzler> It's not a hardinge but.....
[02:30:39] <toastydeath> and what exactly is "tool room quality"
[02:30:43] <jmkasunich> are you SURE its american made?
[02:31:52] <toastydeath> like i don't want to be too big of an asshat but there's only so much capacity you can get out of that style of machine
[02:31:59] <toastydeath> you can machine whatever you want
[02:32:02] <Dogfishguzzler> Toasty: It will typically have less than .0002 taper out of the box, its rigid at 200#'s
[02:32:11] <Dogfishguzzler> jmk: Yep Im sure.
[02:32:17] <toastydeath> over what
[02:32:28] <Dogfishguzzler> Thats the question now isnt it
[02:32:38] <toastydeath> per inch?
[02:32:40] <toastydeath> six?
[02:32:44] <Dogfishguzzler> I assume over the entire length of the bed, 12 inches.
[02:32:49] <toastydeath> i doubt that
[02:32:53] <toastydeath> in a very big way.
[02:33:08] <jmkasunich> Dogfishguzzler: show me where it says that is an american lathe
[02:33:16] <Dogfishguzzler> Yeah I kinda do too but for a thousand bucks its as good as I can do.
[02:33:20] <jmkasunich> its an import, I'm about 99.98% sure
[02:33:24] <Dogfishguzzler> okay jmk brb
[02:33:29] <toastydeath> if you were talking about a swiss lathe, i could accept .0001" in 12
[02:33:39] <toastydeath> but even a hlv or 10ee isn't holding that.
[02:33:43] <toastydeath> er .0002"
[02:33:57] <toastydeath> but anyway
[02:34:01] <toastydeath> any lathe or mill you get will do work.
[02:34:07] <toastydeath> but it's not going to be fast work.
[02:34:12] <jmkasunich> that number is probably what you get if you stick a dowel in a collet and indicate it right at the front of the collet
[02:34:16] <jmkasunich> (on a good day)
[02:34:50] <toastydeath> like the first thing that tells me it isn't rigid
[02:35:14] <toastydeath> is that the distance between the bedways is smaller than bed to spindle centerline
[02:35:26] <toastydeath> that's like, the very first thing you look at
[02:35:47] <toastydeath> the second thing is that the carrage isn't wide enough
[02:36:01] <toastydeath> you can do a ton of stuff with it, just not very fast.
[02:36:19] <toastydeath> you may not have a comfort level outside the capacity of the machine, in which case you will be a very happy owner.
[02:36:23] <Dogfishguzzler> Yeah I figured it was gonna be a slow worker
[02:36:26] <jmkasunich> fast is the difference between hobbiests and pros
[02:36:39] <jmkasunich> they aren't selling that lathe to pros ;-)
[02:37:03] <Dogfishguzzler> jmk: I can't seem to find confirmation of it being american made either. I'm sure I read that though.
[02:37:05] <toastydeath> that's where a lot of people are happy using hobby machines
[02:37:19] <toastydeath> like jmkasunich alluded to, it's comfort level
[02:37:36] <toastydeath> i am very comfortable cranking a tool in .5" and running it .040" per rev
[02:37:39] <toastydeath> in mild steel
[02:37:48] <jmkasunich> heh
[02:38:01] <toastydeath> that machine would not enjoy doing that one bit
[02:38:12] <Dogfishguzzler> I've been a machinist all my life, even since I was a fetus. I have to get myself some machines or I'm gonna go insanae. If I could have three phase here I would just go to an auction.
[02:38:15] <toastydeath> but it would enjoy doing .1" at like .01"
[02:38:21] <jmkasunich> one of the people reviewing it was very pleased to be able to do 0.040 depth of cut
[02:38:24] <toastydeath> and in the end the parts are going to be the same
[02:38:26] <jmkasunich> probably a few thou per rev
[02:38:45] <toastydeath> dogfishguzzler: then get it!
[02:38:48] <jmkasunich> Dogfishguzzler: do you have 240V single phase?
[02:38:56] <jmkasunich> (stove or dryer outlet?)
[02:38:59] <Dogfishguzzler> Yeah I love popping off a nice chip and I know the hobby stuff aint gonna do that.
[02:39:26] <Dogfishguzzler> jmk: Your talking about buying a phase converter.
[02:39:31] <jmkasunich> yep
[02:39:38] <jmkasunich> actually, about building one
[02:39:43] <Dogfishguzzler> Yeah I've thought about that
[02:39:46] <toastydeath> i personally can't stand to work slow, so i'm saving for bigger iron
[02:39:50] <jmkasunich> rotarys can be done on the cheap with a surplus motor
[02:39:52] <Dogfishguzzler> the only other thing is getting the machine here.
[02:40:02] <jmkasunich> toastydeath: you like "chips that go clink" ?
[02:40:17] <toastydeath> not necessarily, i just hate taking 80 passes
[02:40:25] <Dogfishguzzler> lol@80 passes
[02:40:27] <toastydeath> i'd rather take one rough pass, a semifinisher, and a finish pass
[02:40:36] <toastydeath> or just one, if it's not a lot to go
[02:40:52] <jmkasunich> if I want to do heavy work, I do it on the van norman (mill work)
[02:41:04] <jmkasunich> or the 13" south bend in the model shop at work
[02:41:22] <toastydeath> we have a 3 hp leblond at school that i use
[02:41:31] <jmkasunich> nice
[02:41:32] <toastydeath> it's like 16"x40"
[02:41:37] <toastydeath> very cool lathe, accurate as hel
[02:41:40] <toastydeath> *hel
[02:41:44] <toastydeath> damnit, whatever.
[02:41:46] <SWPadnos> +l
[02:41:49] <Dogfishguzzler> haha
[02:41:50] <jmkasunich> the SB at work used to be mine
[02:41:56] <jmkasunich> but since it was in the garage, I never used it
[02:42:03] <jmkasunich> so I sold it to work
[02:42:09] <toastydeath> haha and now you can use ut
[02:42:11] <toastydeath> *it
[02:42:13] <jmkasunich> which is cool, since I can still use it
[02:42:28] <SWPadnos> I should try to convince my friend to CNC his Takisawa
[02:42:38] <toastydeath> if i need to turn big stuff there's a 20 hp gearhead mori seki CNC at work
[02:42:46] <toastydeath> that doesn't run too often
[02:42:55] <toastydeath> and a 7hp manual Birmingham 19"x60"
[02:43:04] <toastydeath> about the same quality as the Leblond
[02:43:11] <toastydeath> very, very nice import brand
[02:43:22] <toastydeath> but priced for the quality.
[02:43:52] <toastydeath> swpadnos: takisawa?
[02:44:10] <SWPadnos> yep, japanese (semi-obviously) brand, good stuff
[02:44:22] <SWPadnos> his is a 5HP unit, weighs about 3500 pounds
[02:44:24] <toastydeath> http://www.fw.ucalgary.ca/sciwksp/images/Takisawa.jpg
[02:44:26] <toastydeath> ?
[02:44:39] <SWPadnos> yep, that's more or less the one
[02:44:51] <toastydeath> nice
[02:45:06] <cradek> cool, I think I used all 2HP at once for the first time
[02:45:13] <toastydeath> hahah
[02:45:39] <cradek> also, I have chips in my shoes
[02:45:46] <SWPadnos> I've actually had my BP spindle get shut down from the overloads in the scontactor
[02:45:46] <toastydeath> that's never good
[02:45:52] <SWPadnos> -s
[02:46:03] <cradek> yeah
[02:46:10] <SWPadnos> you'd think that would be hard with a manual machine
[02:46:15] <toastydeath> ?
[02:46:18] <cradek> I don't see any way the control can notice when that happens...
[02:46:42] <cradek> is your manual 2HP too?
[02:46:44] <SWPadnos> like, you need to crank the tool through the work, so it should get difficult as you're loading the spindle more
[02:46:49] <SWPadnos> I think it's a 1.5 actually
[02:46:57] <toastydeath> i've never STOPPED a spindle except on the Haas at school
[02:47:06] <toastydeath> i've always had vibration problems first on a bport
[02:47:21] <Dogfishguzzler> That reminds me, If Im threading with EMC is it counting on the RPMs being right or is it getting some feedback from the spindle?
[02:47:21] <SWPadnos> I have another motor to stick on it with a VFD, I think that one is 2 or 3 HP
[02:47:28] <SWPadnos> feedback
[02:48:06] <Dogfishguzzler> I cant wait
[02:48:12] <Dogfishguzzler> Driving me crazy
[02:48:48] <toastydeath> lol.
[02:49:12] <Dogfishguzzler> Thats not funny
[02:49:33] <Dogfishguzzler> How would you like if you have no machinery?
[02:50:42] <Dogfishguzzler> I do have one lathe actually, lemme see if I can find a pic.
[02:51:11] <toastydeath> i don't have any machines either man
[02:51:14] <toastydeath> i live in an apartment
[02:52:11] <Dogfishguzzler> http://lh6.google.com/compuslave/Rr25lC14t6I/AAAAAAAAAQw/Lc1sQC-oHh4/s800/temporaryLathe2.jpg
[02:52:22] <Dogfishguzzler> Damn Toasty, I'm sorry dude.
[02:52:48] <toastydeath> it's okay, i work in a machine shop
[02:53:08] <toastydeath> trying to save for an american pacemaker while paying for school, etc
[02:53:41] <Dogfishguzzler> Goodtimes right here. http://lh5.google.com/compuslave/Rr25Yy14tmI/AAAAAAAAAOI/91tk34ofLAw/s800/HaasCarnage.jpg
[02:53:53] <Dogfishguzzler> How old are you Toasty?
[02:54:02] <toastydeath> 22.
[02:54:14] <Dogfishguzzler> oh damn you got all kinds of time.
[02:54:45] <toastydeath> nice carnage tehre
[02:54:47] <toastydeath> *there
[02:54:52] <toastydeath> hah yeah i do
[02:56:04] <Dogfishguzzler> http://picasaweb.google.com/compuslave/VariousPhone
[02:56:50] <toastydeath> lol
[02:58:12] <toastydeath> it just bugs me to not be able to walk out into a shop and be able to make whatever, whenever
[02:59:39] <Dogfishguzzler> Yep me too
[02:59:51] <Dogfishguzzler> And after work I'm in no mood to hang around
[03:00:17] <Dogfishguzzler> I love the trade though. I love making stuff.
[03:00:38] <Dogfishguzzler> Wait till you guys see my perpetual motion machine.
[03:00:42] <toastydeath> lol.
[03:00:46] <Dogfishguzzler> haha
[03:01:03] <Dogfishguzzler> I am seriously close to closing the loop on a steorn type device though.
[03:01:22] <Dogfishguzzler> It's not perpetual motion persey but it will run for days
[03:01:36] <toastydeath> how about i just say "i'll believe it when the patent is filed sucessfully and scrutinzed by the scientific community"
[03:01:49] <Dogfishguzzler> No patent, GPL
[03:02:01] <Dogfishguzzler> If I nail it then it goes public domain.
[03:02:01] <toastydeath> then the second part of that stands!
[03:02:34] <Dogfishguzzler> Right on, I hear ya. I don't know what to think of Steorn's claims.
[03:03:10] <Dogfishguzzler> I find it hard to believe that the laws of physics somehow dont apply but we'll see if anything ever comes of their claims
[03:03:16] <toastydeath> lol.
[03:03:47] <Dogfishguzzler> I dont claim such a thing. But I do have a magnet motor based on some of their public patents that will run by it's self.
[03:03:57] <toastydeath> i'd just like to build a tool storage system instead of a toolbox
[03:03:58] <toastydeath> for work
[03:04:21] <Dogfishguzzler> You need to save your money and buy an insert vending machine
[03:04:33] <toastydeath> nah
[03:04:37] <Dogfishguzzler> That's a joke ofcourse.
[03:06:55] <Dogfishguzzler> What do you mean 'tool storage system'?
[03:07:07] <toastydeath> tool robot
[03:07:13] <toastydeath> it's got shelves inside
[03:07:17] <toastydeath> on a vertical ring
[03:07:28] <toastydeath> press a shelf number or enter a tool name
[03:07:42] <toastydeath> and it rotates to bring the proper bin up to the access port
[03:07:50] <Dogfishguzzler> oh snap, that would be alright.
[03:07:56] <toastydeath> there are pictures of really big ones
[03:08:14] <toastydeath> http://www.armedforces.co.uk/newimages/amhdatapik.jpg
[03:08:31] <toastydeath> just want a little toolbox sized one
[03:09:05] <toastydeath> they're not that complicated internally
[03:09:42] <Dogfishguzzler> That would be a cool project
[03:10:08] <toastydeath> put some car batteries in the bottom for when you disconnect the power
[03:10:32] <toastydeath> and use one of those low-power embedded things to run it
[03:12:50] <Dogfishguzzler> I want to learn more about embedded systems etc.
[03:12:59] <toastydeath> they have a ton of classes at my school
[03:13:11] <Dogfishguzzler> Whcih school is that?
[03:13:16] <toastydeath> delaware tech
[03:13:19] <toastydeath> not state
[03:13:29] <toastydeath> itty bitty community college.
[03:13:40] <toastydeath> real heavy engineering emphasis
[03:13:45] <Dogfishguzzler> At my age I think hands on is the only way I can learn.
[03:13:56] <toastydeath> well everything they do has a lab component
[03:14:09] <toastydeath> they keep their machine shop in running condition and have fluid power labs
[03:14:11] <toastydeath> and other crap
[03:14:16] <toastydeath> it's well stocked for hands on
[03:14:34] <Dogfishguzzler> If I were rich I would goto school constantly.
[03:15:02] <Dogfishguzzler> But working AND going to school is just too much.
[03:15:18] <toastydeath> lol
[03:16:14] <Dogfishguzzler> I love learning stuff. Im not sure why it's not as if it produces anything most times.
[03:16:27] <Dogfishguzzler> I think I need a shrink.
[03:16:38] <toastydeath> ?
[03:16:43] <toastydeath> that first sentence made no sense.
[03:17:02] <Dogfishguzzler> I spend lots of time learning useless stuff.
[03:17:07] <toastydeath> oh
[03:17:09] <Dogfishguzzler> Does that make sense?
[03:17:10] <toastydeath> well cut it out?
[03:17:10] <Dogfishguzzler> lol
[03:17:14] <Dogfishguzzler> I cant
[03:17:21] <toastydeath> try to learn useful stuff.
[03:17:30] <Dogfishguzzler> As we say here in the south 'I'm eat up'
[03:18:00] <Dogfishguzzler> It's interesting stuff but generally useless.
[03:18:39] <toastydeath> lol
[03:19:50] <Dogfishguzzler> So what's your deal with EMC? Do you use it at school?
[03:20:05] <toastydeath> i don't use it at all
[03:20:22] <Dogfishguzzler> You hang here because your fellow machinist are here?
[03:20:26] <toastydeath> it seems to be a neat group of folks that like machining and getting projects done
[03:20:32] <Dogfishguzzler> Yeah
[03:20:33] <toastydeath> yeah, essentially.
[03:20:49] <Dogfishguzzler> Same here, but I do tinker with EMC.
[03:21:25] <jmkasunich> cradek: you owe us photos or a blog post of what you are working on
[03:25:43] <cradek> I took a little video but I'm sure it is awful
[03:28:06] <jmkasunich> just pics of the current state would be interesting
[03:38:32] <skunkworks> video?
[03:41:03] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich waffles
[03:41:15] <jmkasunich> its time to cut a hole in the electrical box
[03:41:25] <jmkasunich> hard to un-cut if I put it in the wrong place
[03:41:53] <jmkasunich> (besides which I'm not looking forward to jigsawing thru all that steel)
[03:53:28] <Dogfishguzzler> #ubuntu is a helpful place sometimes but most times it's so busy you catch hell trying to get a question answered.
[04:12:48] <toastydeath> i really prefer manpages and google for linux help
[04:57:07] <dmess> hi all http://www.biertijd.com/mediaplayer/fullscreen.html this is my NEXT adventure
[05:00:29] <eric_U> haas has nicer displays than they did when we bought our mill
[07:34:38] <toastydeath> the nice haas controls, i dunno man
[07:34:42] <toastydeath> i don't like the control itself
[07:34:46] <toastydeath> but it has some real nice features
[07:34:49] <toastydeath> it's very bittersweet
[07:35:11] <toastydeath> and i am having sort of a crush on these vertical storage systems
[07:35:23] <toastydeath> if i can build a real simple one that would alleviate a lot of the "home shop" issues
[07:38:59] <fenn> i'm going to make one of those
[07:39:22] <toastydeath> i'm thinking all you'd need is a 3ph motor and a toggle switch
[07:39:26] <toastydeath> "up/off/down"
[07:39:30] <fenn> i already have everything in uniformly sized 12"x17"x4" rectangular plastic tubs
[07:39:45] <fenn> naw it'll be computerized with a search engine
[07:39:52] <toastydeath> that would be the ideal
[07:40:02] <toastydeath> but i know myself and i won't get past the "build the simple version"
[07:40:07] <toastydeath> maybe i'll add on
[07:40:09] <toastydeath> but whatever
[07:40:16] <fenn> well, just having everything in boxes works pretty well
[07:40:26] <toastydeath> well taking advantage of vertical space
[07:40:28] <fenn> but sometimes the categorization scheme breaks down
[07:40:51] <toastydeath> haha yeah
[07:40:57] <fenn> and it's then that i really wish i had a search engine
[07:41:13] <toastydeath> are you considering a vertical lift system or a vertical carousel
[07:41:18] <toastydeath> robot or just wheel of crap
[07:41:21] <SkinnypuppY34> Anyone recognize this quill drive on this clausing cnc mill?http://cgi.ebay.com/1990s-CLAUSING-KONDIA-PROTOTRAK-CNC-VERTICAL-MILL_W0QQitemZ150192956759QQihZ005QQcategoryZ12584QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[07:41:22] <toastydeath> i would do wheel of crap
[07:41:38] <fenn> well, i'm moving into a room with a single lane swimming pool (empty)
[07:41:52] <fenn> currently that space is being wasted, so i'm going to try to take advantage of it somehow
[07:42:08] <toastydeath> cover it up and install a robot, clearly!
[07:42:18] <fenn> it's obvious!
[07:43:08] <toastydeath> i found pictures of the linkage they use to keep the bins upright in the carousel
[07:43:14] <toastydeath> and they're just triangle linkages
[07:43:19] <toastydeath> on a revolving chain
[07:43:24] <toastydeath> brilliantly simple
[07:43:35] <fenn> care to share those pics?
[07:43:48] <toastydeath> sure, lemme find it again
[07:44:48] <toastydeath> http://www.diamondphoenix.com/images/verticalcarousel/verticalcarouselChain_lg.jpg
[07:44:49] <toastydeath> tada
[07:45:56] <toastydeath> what you want sounds more like a vertical lift system rather than a carousel
[07:46:02] <toastydeath> the lift systems are the ones with the picker robots
[07:46:12] <toastydeath> that ride up and down on rails, and grab crap off shelves
[07:46:16] <fenn> yeah i'd rather have something with less mechanical structure
[07:46:30] <toastydeath> i think the pickers are harder to implement/error prone
[07:46:39] <toastydeath> the carousel has high uptime but is slower
[07:46:51] <fenn> i think something like a forklift that shuffled the boxes around would work
[07:47:03] <toastydeath> that's pretty much what they use
[07:47:08] <fenn> then it places the correct box on an elevator that sends it up to me
[07:47:28] <fenn> its pretty much what i do by hand
[07:47:32] <toastydeath> haha
[07:48:40] <toastydeath> some folks apparently have 20' long carousels
[07:48:43] <toastydeath> that have multiple loops
[07:48:47] <toastydeath> and they keep all their bar stock on them
[07:48:51] <toastydeath> really heavy duty carousels
[07:49:06] <toastydeath> forklift drives up, types in the job number, the right stock comes around, and off they go
[07:49:22] <toastydeath> delivery works the same way but from the other side of the carousel
[07:49:41] <fenn> supposedly in japan they have underground parking garages that store the cars on carousels
[07:50:18] <toastydeath> i think i saw videos of that!
[07:50:20] <toastydeath> those are ridiculous
[07:51:30] <fenn> "apparently the company who sold the software to the Hoboken Parking garage was not fully paid and stopped updating the software regularly causing the malfunction"
[07:51:44] <fenn> "so the lesson to NYC is you can fire a human w/o pay but you cant fire a computer system w/o paying first"
[07:52:29] <toastydeath> hahaha
[07:52:53] <fenn> the real high-tech solution is better public transit
[07:53:04] <toastydeath> yeah, i wish we had that around here
[07:53:27] <fenn> like some kind of pod that can link together into trains and then go on a rail or tube system
[07:53:36] <toastydeath> or just some trains
[07:53:40] <toastydeath> in the first place
[07:53:47] <fenn> that works but i dont think americans will go for it
[07:53:51] <toastydeath> yeah
[07:53:53] <toastydeath> we won't go for much
[07:54:01] <toastydeath> "what? don't eat so much? nonsense."
[07:54:28] <fenn> trains don't work so well if you commute from suburbia
[07:54:40] <fenn> and you cant exactly un-build suburbia
[07:54:46] <toastydeath> yeah
[07:54:57] <fenn> europe/japan never had enough land in the first place to have this problem
[07:56:35] <fenn> http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/vws-automated-parking-garage-173049.php
[08:00:58] <toastydeath> damnnn
[08:01:05] <toastydeath> damn son.
[08:22:02] <anonimasu> morning
[08:22:05] <toastydeath> hay
[10:28:02] <Skullworks-PGAB> Alex you around?
[10:28:22] <alex_joni> yup\
[10:29:33] <Skullworks-PGAB> would it be feaseable to use an M41/M42 command to shift the scale/PID values for the spindle drive?
[10:29:45] <alex_joni> http://www.diamondphoenix.com/images/verticalcarousel/verti
[10:29:51] <alex_joni> argh.. :)
[10:30:28] <alex_joni> hmm, what's M41/42?
[10:31:04] <Skullworks-PGAB> M41 = low gear - M42 is High gear M42 P# could be used for someone with a lathe with a full gearbox
[10:31:26] <alex_joni> I would use
[10:31:43] <alex_joni> I would use M62/63 (digital IO's)
[10:32:03] <alex_joni> then do the stuff in hal based on the outputs you just set
[10:32:19] <Skullworks-PGAB> it also allows for reversing the spindle direction to correct with way is CW for a Bridgeport type head mill
[10:33:21] <alex_joni> that last one should be fairly simple in hal
[10:33:55] <alex_joni> just set an invert bit, which drives a scale = -1 on the spindle speed (if you use analog output), or sets a parport.*.pin-invert if you drive it digitally
[10:34:06] <Skullworks-PGAB> right but you want to use the M62 to tell HAL?
[10:34:20] <alex_joni> it's already there, and working :)
[10:35:14] <Skullworks-PGAB> what command are they using on the Mazak to shift gears?
[10:35:51] <alex_joni> I don't think they use any commands
[10:36:00] <alex_joni> it's done in ladder based on spindle speed
[10:36:31] <Skullworks-PGAB> In my case I have to shift manually.
[10:37:17] <Skullworks-PGAB> OK most new machines auto shift based on the Sxxxx Value
[10:37:48] <alex_joni> I'm a bit against adding some more g-codes for things that can be done with general solutions
[10:37:57] <alex_joni> what I would like to have is user-defined mappings
[10:38:08] <alex_joni> so that you could define: M41 = M62P1
[10:38:10] <Skullworks-PGAB> but then most don't use gear boxes anymore - they use multi winding motors
[10:38:18] <alex_joni> M42 = M64P2.. whatever
[10:38:39] <alex_joni> this should be done with o-words procedures
[10:38:48] <alex_joni> so you could in theory define whole sequences
[10:38:52] <toastydeath> any gearhead machine i've used provided m-codes for the gears
[10:38:58] <toastydeath> (just throwing that out there)
[10:39:05] <toastydeath> one for auto select, and then one for each gear
[10:39:15] <alex_joni> toastydeath: and I bet it wasn't the same codes for all those machines
[10:39:21] <toastydeath> actually it has been
[10:39:31] <toastydeath> all in like, the 40's
[10:39:43] <alex_joni> exactly the same?
[10:39:47] <toastydeath> so far, yes
[10:39:55] <alex_joni> interesting
[10:40:10] <toastydeath> but like i kind of agree with you?
[10:40:21] <toastydeath> that adding codes indiscriminately for features is a silly idea
[10:40:35] <toastydeath> too many possibilities to please everyone.
[10:40:39] <anonimasu> hm
[10:40:52] <anonimasu> I think the more standard solution is to perfer..
[10:40:58] <Skullworks-PGAB> I have a Hwacheon that will take any Sxxxx value - but if you don't define the gear with a M41/M42 it will stay in that gear
[10:41:01] <alex_joni> toastydeath: that's why I propose the o-word substitution
[10:41:08] <toastydeath> what is o-word sub
[10:41:17] <alex_joni> a procedure defined by the user
[10:41:21] <toastydeath> oh
[10:41:27] <Skullworks-PGAB> think a M98 P macro
[10:41:28] <alex_joni> maybe in a special file read by the interpreter at startup
[10:41:36] <toastydeath> dude might it be useful to be able to define m-codes in a config
[10:41:55] <alex_joni> toastydeath: yeah, that's kinda what I mean
[10:41:58] <toastydeath> oh, okay.
[10:42:02] <alex_joni> but a bit more complex than that
[10:42:22] <alex_joni> imagine I want to make a sub for Txx M6
[10:42:30] <alex_joni> (for a rack tool changer)
[10:42:34] <toastydeath> sure
[10:42:50] <alex_joni> my procedure would have the tool number as the input, then generate the proper XYZ moves, etc
[10:43:04] <alex_joni> and afterwards do the actual changing
[10:43:21] <toastydeath> i was thinking more like, an external thing entirely
[10:43:30] <toastydeath> like, the code (you guys use python right?)
[10:43:47] <toastydeath> map the m-code to a bit of python code
[10:44:02] <toastydeath> because, for instance
[10:44:08] <toastydeath> we have pallet changing mills
[10:44:13] <toastydeath> that use the same range of m-codes (40's)
[10:44:15] <toastydeath> for pallet crap
[10:44:36] <alex_joni> it's not python for this kind of stuff :)
[10:44:38] <Skullworks-PGAB> O subs can do powerful things - almost dangerous if I understand right.
[10:44:51] <alex_joni> Skullworks-PGAB: most anything you can program :)
[10:44:55] <toastydeath> well how would you write a g-code program
[10:45:00] <alex_joni> loops, compares, decisions, etc
[10:45:00] <toastydeath> to do a pallet swap?
[10:45:16] <alex_joni> toastydeath: same as you probably would write a python procedure
[10:45:23] <Skullworks-PGAB> Pallet swap is a job for CL
[10:45:32] <alex_joni> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Oword
[10:45:43] <toastydeath> yeah, we have o-word subs in some of our machines
[10:45:55] <toastydeath> it's just parametric programming
[10:46:36] <toastydeath> and i suppose you could hack a way to do a pallet change by writing code to watch pins or whatever
[10:46:55] <Skullworks-PGAB> Next topic - Know anything about Puma.kins?
[10:46:56] <alex_joni> toastydeath: right.. it won't be pretty but it should work
[10:47:00] <alex_joni> Skullworks-PGAB: a little
[10:47:18] <Skullworks-PGAB> any program examples out there
[10:47:46] <alex_joni> Skullworks-PGAB: what do you mean?
[10:48:34] <Skullworks-PGAB> http://www.skullworks.net/include/DSCF0272.JPG
[10:48:47] <Skullworks-PGAB> I run these at work
[10:48:52] <alex_joni> Skullworks-PGAB: me too :)
[10:49:08] <Skullworks-PGAB> I have a divx vid here somewhere too
[10:49:10] <alex_joni> not stäubli .. but anyways
[10:49:23] <Skullworks-PGAB> Staubli
[10:49:34] <alex_joni> it's actually 'ae'
[10:49:41] <alex_joni> not sure if it came over right :)
[10:49:42] <Skullworks-PGAB> they bought out Puma
[10:50:41] <alex_joni> Skullworks-PGAB: it depends what you want to do :)
[10:50:50] <Skullworks-PGAB> anyway - we just use the teaching pendant to define the moves
[10:50:54] <alex_joni> the robots I work with are for arc-welding
[10:51:03] <alex_joni> right, same on most/all I've seen so far
[10:51:12] <alex_joni> there is a teach-in script in emc2
[10:51:13] <Skullworks-PGAB> sweet - MiG or TiG?
[10:51:21] <alex_joni> both, but mainly MIG
[10:51:33] <alex_joni> sometimes plasma cutting
[10:51:43] <toastydeath> how much fixturing does it take to get the robot to pick parts up right
[10:51:52] <toastydeath> or is there some sort of vision thing going on
[10:51:53] <alex_joni> toastydeath: depends on the parts
[10:51:58] <Skullworks-PGAB> minamal
[10:52:07] <alex_joni> sometimes it's simple gripping from predefined points
[10:52:15] <alex_joni> sometimes it's vision based de-palletizing
[10:52:24] <alex_joni> (those two are quite different)
[10:52:50] <toastydeath> hm
[10:53:00] <toastydeath> the predefined points thing probably wouldn't work for us
[10:53:04] <alex_joni> toastydeath: sometimes it's even more complicated than that :)
[10:53:07] <toastydeath> we have these random sized boxes we stick the parts on
[10:53:10] <toastydeath> *in
[10:53:12] <alex_joni> but it gets expensive quite fast
[10:53:15] <toastydeath> oh.
[10:53:49] <Skullworks-PGAB> we don't use vision directly on the robots - but the robot does hold the part in a vision optical measuring cell to be sure any punch press features are currect.
[10:54:05] <alex_joni> like 2 stage localisations (1 overhead mounted camera to roughly locate the boxes, then a camera/laser scanner on the robot arm that find the accurate position of the box to pick it up)
[10:54:24] <toastydeath> like it would be easy for us to define a small spot to put the boxes in
[10:54:35] <toastydeath> but it would be the robot's responsiblity to locate the individual part and pick it up
[10:54:41] <toastydeath> they'd all be aligned kind of neatly
[10:54:50] <alex_joni> Skullworks-PGAB: to get back to puma/6R types
[10:54:55] <toastydeath> sry
[10:55:15] <alex_joni> toastydeath: no problems :)
[10:55:39] <alex_joni> Skullworks-PGAB: if I happen to start emc2 with a puma-typed robot, I'd probably exchange the intepreter
[10:55:50] <alex_joni> I don't think G-codes fit an articulated robot
[10:56:01] <alex_joni> (but that's probably not a very easy thing to do..)
[10:56:13] <Skullworks-PGAB> well I was wondering how EMC would deal with a puma type - being 6 axis + romtes for clamping ect.
[10:56:32] <alex_joni> well.. g-code supports XYZABC.. so the 6 axes is taken care of
[10:56:43] <alex_joni> you can even extend it to 9 axes with UVW
[10:56:58] <alex_joni> (e.g. linear actuators that move the robot around)
[10:57:20] <alex_joni> the problem is writing the g-code :)
[10:57:23] <Skullworks-PGAB> right - but movement is different in different modes - world/joint/tool etc
[10:57:39] <alex_joni> Skullworks-PGAB: I know.. that doesn't really work right now
[10:57:43] <alex_joni> it only moves in world
[10:58:05] <Skullworks-PGAB> just wondering if you knew of anyone playing with that
[10:58:07] <alex_joni> G0 should move in joint world imo
[10:58:11] <alex_joni> yup, I do..
[10:58:25] <Skullworks-PGAB> using emc/
[10:58:27] <alex_joni> there's a guy in germany that built one himself
[10:58:29] <Skullworks-PGAB> ?
[10:58:33] <alex_joni> yeah, emc2
[10:58:39] <Skullworks-PGAB> neat
[10:58:40] <alex_joni> he does it like this:
[10:58:48] <alex_joni> fires emc2 up with kins
[10:58:54] <alex_joni> and uses the teach-in script
[10:59:12] <Skullworks-PGAB> I was thinking of making one 1/3 scale
[10:59:14] <alex_joni> he joggs in world (after homing), and uses the teach-in to record axes/joint locations
[10:59:36] <alex_joni> afterwards he adapts the stored points into a program (by hand, iirc)
[10:59:50] <Skullworks-PGAB> ouch
[10:59:54] <alex_joni> then he starts up another emc2 config without kins, taking the joints only program
[10:59:57] <alex_joni> and runs it
[11:00:04] <alex_joni> he said he's quite happy how it works
[11:00:22] <alex_joni> (this hack he did is because of some still to be resolved bugs in emc2)
[11:01:11] <Skullworks-PGAB> I have no prob hand writing out huge 4 axis G-Code but the way things reverse and all on these robots... Which way is up again?
[11:01:23] <alex_joni> Skullworks-PGAB: haha, yeah :)
[11:02:03] <alex_joni> I guess for it to really work we would need: a different interpreter, a different GUI (at least for the teach-in stuff), fixing emc2 bugs/misconceptions
[11:02:29] <fenn> are those bugs just in pumakins or what?
[11:02:40] <alex_joni> fenn: no.. conceptual bugs
[11:02:44] <alex_joni> mixing axes/joints
[11:03:00] <Skullworks-PGAB> don't think its the KINS as much as the UI
[11:03:12] <alex_joni> for example.. the max-speed, max-accel are used in world space
[11:03:18] <alex_joni> instead of limiting each joint
[11:05:42] <fenn> ok i think i understand how that method works around the bug
[11:06:39] <Skullworks-PGAB> we have 16 puma type, 2 GMF of 1 type and another smaller GMF unit.
[11:06:53] <fenn> what language is used to program robots? (did i ask this already?)
[11:07:07] <alex_joni> fenn: it's manufacturer specific
[11:07:13] <fenn> oh joy
[11:07:18] <Skullworks-PGAB> I'm thinking of making a scaled down version for giggles
[11:07:44] <alex_joni> and it doesn't have any resemblence from one manuf. to another
[11:07:58] <Skullworks-PGAB> (some people build model steam engines, I build machines...)
[11:08:24] <fenn> but steam engines _are_ machines
[11:08:51] <fenn> anyway, every nerd on the planet is thinking of building a scaled down robot arm
[11:09:03] <alex_joni> fenn: I'm not :)
[11:09:35] <alex_joni> but I am pondering about getting an older big-sized one
[11:09:39] <fenn> um, you're not a nerd maybe
[11:10:24] <Skullworks-PGAB> yes - But I could earn major geek points to have this unit with vaccuum grips changing out optical media on my PC's...
[11:11:26] <anonimasu> :)
[11:12:14] <alex_joni> Skullworks-PGAB: yeah, yeah.. that scores really high
[11:12:42] <alex_joni> Skullworks-PGAB: well.. if you do start building.. maybe it wouldn't be so hard to build directly two
[11:13:10] <alex_joni> I know a couple of emc2 developers who would really love to have one (and will probably make it work really good with emc2 :P)
[11:13:28] <Skullworks-PGAB> the GMF's are much simpler than the puma types
[11:14:23] <alex_joni> gmf?
[11:14:25] <Skullworks-PGAB> I keep forgetting to shoot some good pics of those
[11:14:38] <Skullworks-PGAB> Fanuc robots
[11:14:43] <alex_joni> acronym doesn't ring a bell
[11:14:47] <alex_joni> still RRRRRR ?
[11:15:34] <Skullworks-PGAB> there was a shot of one in the first Terminator movies... yes there that old...
[11:15:34] <alex_joni> http://www.wiu.edu/engrtech/images/robot.jpg
[11:16:29] <alex_joni> Skullworks-PGAB: here's one I installed http://www.robcon.ro/300730/sIMG_8774.JPG
[11:16:42] <Skullworks-PGAB> ok - thats half size of our small GMF
[11:17:23] <alex_joni> here's another one http://www.robcon.ro/301589/sIMG_8759.JPG
[11:17:25] <Skullworks-PGAB> nice
[11:18:52] <alex_joni> the robots we have are always the same size (roughly), they get extended with linear axes for big parts
[11:19:21] <alex_joni> you don't need/want really big robots for 30 pound payload :)
[11:20:35] <Skullworks-PGAB> these pumas are not too big - and are really light weigth thin wall aluminum castings
[11:21:04] <alex_joni> yeah
[11:21:14] <alex_joni> roughly 4-5m working range diameter
[11:21:16] <Skullworks-PGAB> just well designed to handle loads within there design parameters
[11:22:43] <alex_joni> Skullworks-PGAB: still scary
[11:22:51] <alex_joni> when they start to move with 2-3m/sec
[11:23:00] <alex_joni> tooltip vel
[11:23:33] <Skullworks-PGAB> ours are a good 10 years old for the young ones
[11:23:44] <buckie555> Has anyone reported any strange behaviour when homing to an index pulse using a m5i20 board?
[11:24:23] <alex_joni> buckie555: not lately
[11:24:38] <Skullworks-PGAB> homing in general had bugs in 2.2.1 IIRC
[11:24:57] <alex_joni> Skullworks-PGAB: not homing, the config files generated by stepconf
[11:25:02] <buckie555> I'm pretty sure it was working in 2.1.7 but since I've upgraded to 2.2.1 when I try to home it seeks correctly, backs off correctly, finds the index pulse and then a second later send that axis into violent random movement
[11:25:08] <Skullworks-PGAB> something got pooched but is fixed now
[11:25:13] <Skullworks-PGAB> ah
[11:25:18] <alex_joni> buckie555: random?
[11:25:35] <buckie555> if i home with index param turned off it works fine
[11:25:56] <alex_joni> oh.. that's unexpected
[11:26:07] <buckie555> well random in the sense that it commands the axis full speed one way then full speed back and forth a few times - it's a little scary
[11:26:21] <alex_joni> buckie555: right, I think I know what's happening
[11:26:33] <alex_joni> but it shouldn't have been changed from 2.1.x to 2.2.x
[11:27:14] <buckie555> is it likely to affect the x and y axis as well, I'm scared off trying for damaging the mill
[11:27:26] <fenn> what do you think is happening?
[11:27:36] <alex_joni> fenn: it resets the axis position
[11:27:42] <alex_joni> and motion doesn't compensate for that
[11:27:50] <buckie555> I definately had x and y homing off an index correctly in 2.1.7 but wasn't using the index on z at the time
[11:27:52] <alex_joni> so it sees a big jump in position, and tries to catch up
[11:28:19] <alex_joni> buckie555: where are you located? US?
[11:28:53] <buckie555> no - UK
[11:29:09] <alex_joni> it would be best if we try to get a grip on jmkasunich later on
[11:29:15] <alex_joni> he should know this stuff the best
[11:29:26] <alex_joni> otoh, I'm trying to see if I can find anything right now..
[11:29:36] <buckie555> for the short term I can just rely on the switch contact but a fix would be very welcome
[11:30:32] <buckie555> I can come back online later today when jmk might be around if that helps. By the way I checked the index pulses in halscope and they all appear nice and clean.
[11:32:06] <buckie555> for the time being I've disconnected the z axis motor coupling to prevent any further damage so am in a position to test any potential bug fixes before I reconnect
[11:32:09] <alex_joni> buckie555: ok, this helps as a bugreport
[11:32:18] <alex_joni> good.. that's nice
[11:32:27] <Skullworks-PGAB> good work on checking the signals - assume nothing.
[11:32:28] <alex_joni> could you try to get a halscope snapshot of what is happening?
[11:32:31] <buckie555> the movement is so severe that it overshoots my separate limit switches and hits the mechanical stops
[11:32:57] <buckie555> sure, other than the z index what other channels would you like me to monitor?
[11:34:03] <alex_joni> there should be a cmd and fb position for the z axis
[11:34:52] <buckie555> i know the ones, anything else?
[11:36:35] <alex_joni> trigger on index
[11:36:48] <alex_joni> there are some homing related (I think homing-stage or something like that)
[11:36:52] <alex_joni> home-state?
[11:37:26] <buckie555> ok fine, I'll try to get some shots
[11:39:13] <alex_joni> great
[11:42:23] <alex_joni> buckie555: been going through a big list of diff's .. can't find anything atm
[11:42:46] <alex_joni> could you also post your ini's (both 2.1.x and 2.2.x) somewhere?
[11:45:14] <alex_joni> buckie555: specifically.. do you have m5i20.<board-id>.enc-xx-reset or reset-count, in your config?
[11:47:17] <alex_joni> buckie555: I think it might be a configuration issue related to m5i20 (after studying the code)
[11:52:37] <alex_joni> or a bug in the m5i20 driver
[12:08:46] <Skullworks-PGAB> * Skullworks-PGAB is going to catch a few hours sleep.
[12:13:04] <buckie555> alex are you still there - sorry just popped out of the office
[12:13:27] <alex_joni> no problem.. still here
[12:13:43] <alex_joni> buckie555: can you look at your .hal file?
[12:14:28] <alex_joni> did you adapt it to match: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?UPDATING#m5i20_encoder_changes ?
[12:14:58] <buckie555> not right at this moment but I can remember it quite well - i've spent most of the last month playing with it
[12:18:09] <alex_joni> "The m5i20 "encoder" pins now match the HAL canonical encoder interface. The -cnt-latch, -pos-latch, -idx-latch, and -latch-index pins have been removed. The standard encoder pin -index-enable has been added. The behavior of the -position and -count pins now match the HAL canonical interface."
[12:18:29] <buckie555> yes, i copied across the two lines from the sample config that link m5i20.0.index-enable <==> to axis.2.index-enable etc
[12:19:48] <buckie555> yes i have no references to those deprecated pins or to encoder reset or reset count that you mentioned earlier
[12:20:40] <buckie555> also my home switches definately stay on from the moment they are tripped to the limit of the travel
[12:20:48] <alex_joni> ok, the m5i20.*-count would also be valuable on the halscope snapshot
[12:21:25] <buckie555> I rigorously checked the operation of the switches following observing this behaviour and they switch clean on and off every time
[12:21:37] <alex_joni> buckie555: I don't doubt they do :)
[12:22:47] <buckie555> since i disconnected the coupling I'm now activating the switches manually
[12:23:52] <buckie555> i cmd home, it starts seeking, then wait a few seconds, activate the home switch, the motor begins the latch sequence, then i release the switch to simulate it coming off and shortly after it detects the index pulse, then about 1 second later all the craziness starts
[12:23:58] <alex_joni> buckie555: to prevent harm I would limit the PID output for now..
[12:24:35] <alex_joni> but if you think the motor is ok with the coupling removed, then keep it like this..
[12:26:10] <buckie555> that's a good idea - will do
[12:26:10] <buckie555> one thing i did notice was that "sometimes" after the first attempt with the strange behaviour and then me aborting by pressing escape the next attempt succeeds
[12:26:14] <buckie555> i say sometimes because about 50% of the time it exhibits the same behaviour the 2nd time
[12:27:21] <alex_joni> buckie555: maybe you abort it after it managed to zero the encoder count
[12:27:25] <buckie555> oh absolutely - i have no intention of reconnecting the coupling until i'm confident this is fixed - it's already stripped the locknut off my original ballscrew causing the whole z-axis to fall to the floor
[12:27:33] <alex_joni> then the next time it won't see such a big jump..
[12:27:36] <buckie555> not a nice experience with a 4 tonne vmc
[12:27:45] <alex_joni> ouch :/
[12:28:08] <buckie555> quite - luckily the y axis guards took most of the impact saving the spindle and table from damage
[12:28:51] <buckie555> as it turned out it was a blessing in disguise as the ballnut was badly worn so the z axis ballscrew needed replacing anyway but that's another story
[12:29:05] <alex_joni> heh
[12:29:13] <buckie555> now I've installed a brand new replacement i don't intend damaging it
[12:33:13] <buckie555> is there a way of saving a trace from halscope or do i just need to do a screengrab
[12:34:18] <alex_joni> I think in 2.2.x you can save a trace
[12:34:24] <alex_joni> but a screen grab is faster for now
[12:45:25] <CIA-8> 03tissf 07v2_2_branch * 10emc2/docs/src/hal/ (10 files): French translation
[12:45:33] <CIA-8> 03tissf 07v2_2_branch * 10emc2/docs/src/ (Master_HAL_fr.lyx Submakefile index.tmpl index_fr.tmpl): French translation
[13:16:18] <CIA-8> 03tissf 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/Master_User_fr.lyx: French translation update
[13:16:55] <alex_joni> buckie555: gotta run for a little while, will read when I get back
[13:48:50] <CIA-8> 03tissf 07v2_2_branch * 10emc2/docs/src/Master_User_fr.lyx: French translation update
[13:48:50] <CIA-8> 03tissf 07v2_2_branch * 10emc2/docs/src/gcode/main_fr.lyx: French translation update
[13:55:18] <CIA-8> 03tissf 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/gcode/main_fr.lyx: French translation update
[17:09:07] <BigJohnT> Anyone know what causes the popup window Sorry I stepped out when on here?
[17:09:35] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: it's a gaim thing
[17:09:48] <alex_joni> there's a timeout for the idle in the settings somewhere..
[17:09:55] <BigJohnT> ok
[17:09:59] <alex_joni> you can also disable it completely
[17:10:41] <BigJohnT> found it thanks
[17:11:21] <BigJohnT> BTW, face.py version 1.3.1 is up on emcwiki now and includes fractions in the entry fields
[17:11:39] <alex_joni> cool, saw the list announce
[17:11:51] <alex_joni> (btw, you were right, there's a limit on the upload size..)
[17:12:07] <alex_joni> The current upload size limit is 215040.
[17:12:29] <BigJohnT> I'm just a tad over that...
[17:13:33] <BigJohnT> I'll try just zipping the files without the installer
[17:14:35] <alex_joni> that's way better than including executables :)
[17:15:11] <BigJohnT> zipping is worse it's 4.32mb and the installer one is2.53mb
[17:18:24] <fenn> hmm, you have to press 'generate g-code' before 'write to axis and quit'
[17:19:29] <BigJohnT> yes
[17:19:31] <fenn> also, you're cutting with a g0 move
[17:19:39] <BigJohnT> where
[17:19:49] <fenn> all the y moves
[17:19:59] <BigJohnT> they are all off of the material
[17:20:07] <BigJohnT> by 0.100
[17:21:37] <fenn> you sure bout that? :)
[17:21:52] <BigJohnT> fenn: I was until a second ago
[17:22:15] <BigJohnT> now you have me wondering...
[17:22:16] <fenn> oh, i get it now
[17:22:31] <BigJohnT> whewww
[17:22:51] <fenn> it still seems dangerous
[17:23:00] <BigJohnT> in what way?
[17:23:13] <BigJohnT> entry mistake?
[17:23:23] <fenn> if you aren't cutting a square piece of stock, or if your stock isnt clamped down square
[17:23:30] <fenn> or any number of things
[17:25:03] <BigJohnT> perhaps I could offer the option to G0 or G1 between cuts as the user requires it
[17:25:11] <fenn> sorry i've been thinking about pocketing code all week
[17:25:29] <BigJohnT> Oh yes for pockets no G0
[17:25:40] <BigJohnT> what are you doing with pocketing code
[17:25:48] <BigJohnT> that was my next fun project
[17:26:04] <fenn> er.. writing a thing that takes dxf and cuts spiral pockets
[17:26:38] <BigJohnT> from the outlines of circles and other shapes?
[17:27:18] <fenn> i have to investigate how dxf entities get grouped into paths
[17:27:37] <fenn> but the idea is to be able to do a pocket from any arbitrary shape
[17:28:07] <BigJohnT> I've been looking into converting dxf for my plasma routines same but different
[17:28:26] <fenn> its not just for dxf files, but svg, arbitrary python functions, any vector format really
[17:28:39] <fenn> i'll have to figure out what's worth doing of course
[17:29:06] <fenn> but qcad is the only real cad program i've got, so dxf looks mighty tempting
[17:29:43] <BigJohnT> I found a python file that generates dxf files so the code might fill in some of the blanks as to the format of the dxf file
[17:30:30] <fenn> what's that?
[17:30:38] <BigJohnT> pycad.py
[17:31:24] <fenn> is that german?
[17:31:31] <fenn> i thought you were going to say PythonCAD
[17:31:43] <BigJohnT> I think it is the same one
[17:31:48] <fenn> ok
[17:31:57] <BigJohnT> looking for the link
[17:32:16] <fenn> maybe just an old version
[17:32:48] <BigJohnT> I have both pycad and pythoncad
[17:33:03] <BigJohnT> let me look i think it was a different one
[17:34:08] <BigJohnT> here it is CADvas http://members.localnet.com/~blanding/cadvas/
[17:34:27] <fenn> ah yes, the successor to pythoncad
[17:34:39] <fenn> well, something like that
[17:34:48] <fenn> anyway it's much easier to use
[17:36:37] <BigJohnT> for now my next project in python was to do a simple pocketing g code generator
[17:37:02] <fenn> go for it - i'll probably never finish
[17:37:38] <BigJohnT> too many irons in the fire???
[17:37:50] <fenn> scatterbrained
[17:38:19] <BigJohnT> dang that is worse than I thought
[17:38:31] <fenn> which comes first, finish the cnc lathe or start the cam software?
[17:39:01] <BigJohnT> you gotta finish the chicken then worry about the eggs
[17:39:02] <fenn> at least with the software it may be useful to others in a half-finished state
[17:39:47] <fenn> and it's warm up here
[17:39:53] <BigJohnT> I'm in the middle of building a portable CNC plasma cutter
[17:40:00] <BigJohnT> where is here
[17:40:12] <fenn> cool, something like a boom on a pivot?
[17:40:25] <fenn> here is upstairs, rather than in the cold basement
[17:40:49] <BigJohnT> no it's made with 80/20 so it's light and easy to move around
[17:42:01] <fenn> this is what i pictured: http://www.cnccookbook.com/img/CADDrawings/PlasmaJib.jpg
[17:42:05] <BigJohnT> has a regular xyz axis
[17:43:24] <BigJohnT> That's kinda neat, how do you handle the xy moves with a linear and rotary?
[17:43:34] <BigJohnT> in EMC
[17:45:04] <fenn> x = r*cos(theta), y = r*sin(theta)
[17:45:33] <fenn> you'd have to write a kinematics modules i guess.. hack up scarakins.c
[17:45:57] <BigJohnT> that's beyond me at the moment
[17:46:06] <BigJohnT> what is theta
[17:46:13] <BigJohnT> the rest i understand
[17:46:18] <fenn> the rotary axis
[17:46:39] <BigJohnT> the angle of the rotary axis
[17:46:43] <fenn> right
[17:46:49] <BigJohnT> ok understand now
[17:47:15] <BigJohnT> that seems simple enough at this level LOL
[17:48:02] <BigJohnT> thought I had some pictures of the drive for the Y axis but they are at my shop...
[17:53:28] <BigJohnT> the cnccookbook link as some neat info on it thank fenn
[17:54:46] <alex_joni> buckie555: around?
[18:07:59] <eric_U> I'm thinking about enabling my drives when I turn on the machine in emc
[18:20:56] <Guest619> alex_joni - it's neil here again, are you online?
[18:21:12] <alex_joni> hi
[18:21:20] <alex_joni> yes, we were just discussing your issue
[18:21:26] <alex_joni> managed to get a halscope snapshot?
[18:23:13] <Guest619> hi - oh great - yes you can view the screenshot and hal logs at www.freedrive.com/members/8il35w2d5sowc/
[18:24:21] <Guest619> it looks as though motor-pos-fb exhibits a glitch when the index pulse is detected
[18:24:46] <Guest619> the glitch is not present when home with index is set to false
[18:26:21] <Guest619> what a great tool halscope is for debugging such issues
[18:26:34] <alex_joni> Guest619: it seems as if pos-fb is beeing reset on index (which is good), but pos-cmd doesn't (which causes the jump)
[18:28:18] <Guest619> yes i see what you mean
[18:28:49] <Guest619> i can upload my hal and ini files as well if it helps
[18:28:52] <jmkasunich> hi guys
[18:29:05] <jmkasunich> the "glitch" is supposed to happen
[18:29:17] <jmkasunich> that is the encoder resetting itself to zero when it detects the index pulse
[18:29:42] <jmkasunich> the problem is that the commanded position from EMC should also reset to zero, and it doesn't seem to be doing that
[18:30:03] <Guest619> right
[18:30:06] <jmkasunich> Guest619: are you on the EMC pc right now?
[18:30:18] <jmkasunich> or is there some sneakernet involved?
[18:30:49] <Guest619> no - it's in the workshop, i'm back at home unfortunately. What were you going to suggest - I have a copy of my entire configuration that i can upload if required
[18:30:58] <jmkasunich> argh
[18:31:09] <jmkasunich> I was going to ask you to get more details from the scope plts
[18:31:11] <jmkasunich> plots
[18:31:26] <jmkasunich> in particular, the exact value of home-state during each step of the process
[18:31:37] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: there's a log of the halscope
[18:31:48] <Guest619> yes i uploaded them as well
[18:32:03] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wonders if halscope can load logs
[18:32:20] <fenn> no
[18:32:52] <jmkasunich> I can't seem to actually open the log file (even as text)
[18:33:07] <Guest619> as a slight aside - I'm using the embedded java irc client. Can anyone recommend a good client for use on kubuntu?
[18:33:11] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: there's a download file at the top of the second window
[18:33:24] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: http://www.freedrive.com/file.php?action=download&key=8il35w2d5sowc&file=halscopeWithIndex_log.txt
[18:33:36] <jmkasunich> duh
[18:33:50] <alex_joni> Guest619: it would also be very valuable if we would see the m5i20.*.index-enable pin
[18:34:10] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: what if the driver doesn't set the pin low.. I think the outcome would be the same as on the scope plot?
[18:34:23] <jmkasunich> yes, far more valuable than the index pin
[18:34:45] <Guest619> I was initially monitoring that pin and I'm pretty sure it remained at 0 throughout the entire sequence
[18:35:15] <jmkasunich> index enable? it cannot remain at zero through the whole sequence
[18:35:18] <jmkasunich> not if you are using index
[18:35:25] <fenn> Guest619: xchat or konversation (irc clients)
[18:35:32] <Guest619> that initially attracted my attention because the hal file is explicited linked to index-enable so i guess the linking to the index pin is implicit
[18:35:50] <Guest619> thanks fenn
[18:35:50] <jmkasunich> no, the index pin is a almost useless thing
[18:36:06] <jmkasunich> the actual index signal from the encoder goes straight to the hardware
[18:36:25] <jmkasunich> if you are moving at a high speed, the pulse on index may be very short - the hardware can detect it, but software can't
[18:36:42] <jmkasunich> the driver provides the index pin, soley as a debugging aid - it is a copy of the hardware pin
[18:37:01] <jmkasunich> but no guarantees of you seeing short pulses on it - it might go hi and low again between reads of the board
[18:37:08] <jmkasunich> the index-enable pin is the one that matters
[18:37:15] <Guest619> if i command a straightforward f1 move i see index pin go high once per rev es expected but have never seen index-enable high
[18:37:27] <jmkasunich> emc drives it high, to tell the hardware "next time an index arrives, reset the counter and drive index-enable low"
[18:37:32] <Guest619> right
[18:37:49] <jmkasunich> index enable will only go high once, during homing, after you hit the switch
[18:38:01] <jmkasunich> it will go low again when the next index pulse arrives
[18:38:09] <Guest619> i was initially sampling at the servo rate of 1ms but increased the sampling rate for scope just so i could get a bigger window - 4s wasn't enough
[18:38:11] <jmkasunich> it will never change state when you are running normally
[18:38:32] <jmkasunich> oh, that is not good
[18:38:54] <jmkasunich> you MUST acquire a sample every servo period if we are going to be able to get to the bottom of this
[18:39:27] <fenn> trigger on index-enable?
[18:39:29] <jmkasunich> you don't need to see the entire homing sequence - you can trigger on index-enable (or, if it is truly not going high, on home-state)
[18:39:37] <Guest619> oh ok, I guess i'll have to temporarily increase the servo period then - which has motor tuning implications i believe
[18:39:46] <jmkasunich> no no no
[18:39:49] <alex_joni> no, leave the servo-period alone
[18:39:49] <jmkasunich> don't change periods
[18:39:57] <jmkasunich> run the scope at one sample per period
[18:40:09] <jmkasunich> we only care about the 50ms or so immediately surrounding the index pulse
[18:40:46] <Guest619> ok, so I'll leave the servo period at 1ms and use that thread for halscope
[18:40:51] <jmkasunich> this is why I said "argh" when you said you're at home now
[18:41:03] <jmkasunich> interactive debugging only works when its interactive
[18:41:08] <jmkasunich> right
[18:41:18] <Guest619> if index-enable isn't going high and i trigger off home-state what value of state should i be triggering on?
[18:41:38] <jmkasunich> lemme check the code
[18:42:31] <Guest619> I can get another plot posted within a couple of hours. Is there anything else you'd like me to check whilst I'm there?
[18:42:32] <jmkasunich> probably 15
[18:42:43] <jmkasunich> is that computer on the internet?
[18:42:49] <Guest619> ok so trigger at > 14
[18:42:53] <jmkasunich> yes
[18:43:03] <jmkasunich> lemme put the complete list of states on pastebin
[18:43:21] <Guest619> no - no network conn I'm afraid - and no web access at the workshop at the moment
[18:43:48] <jmkasunich> so you have to put it on a USB stick and bring it home, and there is no way to talk to you while you are there....
[18:43:48] <jmkasunich> bummer
[18:43:56] <jmkasunich> http://www.pastebin.ca/810135
[18:44:08] <jmkasunich> that list tells you what EMC is doing based on home-state
[18:44:35] <alex_joni> Guest619: isn't there another PC networked around the workshop?
[18:45:41] <Guest619> no not at the moment. There will be in a week or so but not at the moment. Yes currently I'm tooing and frooing with everything on a usb stick
[18:46:08] <alex_joni> Guest619: darn :)
[18:46:15] <Guest619> I have a emc setup here for testing but not with the mesa cards!
[18:46:25] <alex_joni> maybe jmkasunich has an idea what else to log & record
[18:46:32] <jmkasunich> well, we'll do the best we can that way. put "internet connection for the shop" at the top of the to-do list
[18:46:46] <Guest619> well I don't mind it taking a couple of days. - Definately
[18:46:52] <jmkasunich> home state, pos fb, pos cmd, and index-enable, are the key items
[18:47:38] <jmkasunich> sample once per servo period, and trigger on index enable going high (which should happen as state goes to 15 or 16
[18:48:00] <jmkasunich> (some states are invisible, because EMC is there for less than a complete servo cycle - 15 might be one of those
[18:48:16] <jmkasunich> so you might see it jump from 10 or 12 to 16
[18:48:28] <jmkasunich> but >14 should work for the trigger
[18:48:32] <alex_joni> Guest619: you're on dapper.. right?
[18:48:45] <Guest619> If it helps your debugging i'm 99.9% sure that when I was running 2.1.7 (I'm now on 2.2.1) x and y homed correctly off the index but at the time I didn't have the z connected for testing
[18:49:03] <Guest619> 14 right or index-enable > high
[18:49:31] <Guest619> yep on dapper - standard ubuntu 2.1.6 iso install - upgrade to 2.1.7 then upgrade to 2.2.1
[18:49:39] <alex_joni> ok..
[18:49:43] <Guest619> 500Mhz PC with 256MB ram
[18:49:46] <alex_joni> do you remember to try 2.1.6 ?
[18:49:53] <alex_joni> especially related to the index-enable stuff
[18:50:53] <Guest619> i believe homing off an index was broken in 2.1.6 - i think i can remember seeing some chat about it being fixed in 2.1.7 which prompted me to upgrade
[18:51:26] <Guest619> it definately didn't work on x and y in 2.1.6 but then did in 2.1.7
[18:51:32] <jmkasunich> right
[18:51:47] <jmkasunich> http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/emc2/src/hal/drivers/hal_m5i20.c?graph=1
[18:51:51] <alex_joni> ok, that's what I wanted to hear
[18:51:54] <jmkasunich> the above is the revision graph for the driver
[18:52:11] <alex_joni> Guest619: could you try to use the 2.1.7 driver with the new emc2 install?
[18:52:12] <jmkasunich> the bold numbers like 1.17 and are version numbers for that specific file
[18:52:26] <jmkasunich> 2.2 uses 1.17 of the driver, 2.1.7 uses
[18:52:30] <Guest619> at the moment i have the z axis coupling disconnected so can test this without fear of damaging anything - my x and y are connected though so don't really want to risk testing them at the moment
[18:52:47] <alex_joni> Guest619: I uploaded the 2.1.7 version of the driver at http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/uploads/hal_m5i20_217.ko
[18:52:59] <alex_joni> Guest619: download that file, and put it on the USB stick
[18:53:24] <Guest619> ok where does it need to go?
[18:53:34] <alex_joni> then copy it to your machine (to /usr/realtime-2.6.15-magma/modules/emc2) and rename it to hal_m5i20.ko
[18:53:49] <alex_joni> remember to rename the file that is there to something like hal_m5i20_222.ko
[18:54:09] <alex_joni> for both operations you need root rights so sudo will be needed
[18:54:53] <Guest619> ok no problem
[18:57:00] <jmkasunich> Guest619: you are only using the first three or four encoder counters, right?
[18:57:21] <jmkasunich> (there is a known problem in the FPGA for the last four)
[18:58:09] <Guest619> yes just 0,1,2 for x,y,z. I'm planning on using 3 for spindle encoder feedback but haven't connected it yet
[18:58:47] <Guest619> FYI. I'm using all of the IO available from the 2 7i33 cards
[18:59:02] <skunkworks_> yikes
[18:59:13] <skunkworks_> that is a lot of I/O
[18:59:22] <Elkhorn> hello
[18:59:32] <Guest619> yes - atc uses most of it
[18:59:43] <skunkworks_> Elkhorn: hello
[19:00:19] <skunkworks_> Guest619: this is my project. http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/toolchangerspindle.JPG
[19:00:21] <Elkhorn> hi folks, i guess you guys might know a bit about robotics then..
[19:00:58] <Elkhorn> and the possibilities of a 3 axis mill, a high speed precision air bearing and a spare 2.2Ghz peecee..
[19:01:23] <Elkhorn> have the hardware almost up together, looking at interfacing and controllong it all now.
[19:01:52] <Elkhorn> any pointers..
[19:02:37] <alex_joni> depends on the mill.. steppers or servos?
[19:02:47] <Guest619> skunkworks - looks like an exciting project.
[19:02:50] <alex_joni> what are your speed requirements, what's your SCALE (counts / unit), etc
[19:03:11] <Elkhorn> steppers, mostly from a scrapped boregrinding machine.
[19:03:15] <Guest619> right I'm off to try this out - will report back in a couple of hours
[19:03:17] <jmkasunich> Guest619: no problem using lots of I/O, as long as you stick to encoder channels 0-3
[19:03:20] <jmkasunich> so you should be fine
[19:03:29] <jmkasunich> Guest619: I should be here when you get back
[19:03:30] <Guest619> thanks for the heads up
[19:03:39] <alex_joni> I might also be here for hours < 4
[19:03:45] <Guest619> ok - really appreciate your support
[19:04:19] <Elkhorn> also a sony linear measuring device that has some odd output. looks like manchester encoding on a scope but cant quite get it;
[19:04:22] <jmkasunich> I'm in the US, so I should be here till well after sane UK people are sleeping
[19:04:30] <Guest619> Well if we miss each other I'll try again tomorrow. As soon as I have the new screenshots I'll upload them to the same place
[19:04:46] <alex_joni> Guest619: just make a small comment in here
[19:04:50] <Guest619> Ah I stopped being sane when I quit the day job to work for myself!
[19:04:59] <alex_joni> with my name on the line, I'll notice it later :)
[19:05:09] <alex_joni> same goes for the other people around I think
[19:07:21] <jmkasunich> right - be sure to mention each of us by name, that will highlight your comment for each of us
[19:08:03] <Elkhorn> getting approx 1100 counts per mm on linear scale.
[19:09:02] <Elkhorn> angle sensor has binary output, about 850 counts per revolution, .
[19:09:36] <Elkhorn> air bearing runs at 36000rpm on compressed air at 80psi.
[19:10:29] <skunkworks_> if your using steppers - you really don't need any sort of feedback.. (although someone on here is using encoders to detect following error with steppers)
[19:10:48] <skunkworks_> what are these air bearings being used for? spindle?
[19:10:50] <Elkhorn> hopefully will be able to make precision components up to 7in cubed
[19:11:09] <Elkhorn> airbearing used for precision grinding or drilling
[19:11:58] <Elkhorn> have had some success making small parts for miniature steam trains and signalling components.
[19:12:18] <Elkhorn> but all manual control, takes ages.. looking to make it repeatable cnc :)
[19:13:43] <fenn> signalling components?
[19:14:17] <fenn> mechanical pcb etching?
[19:14:56] <Elkhorn> had a go with pcbs turned out a nice board, and nice 0.3mm drilling
[19:15:37] <Elkhorn> the air bearing is this sorta thing. airbearings.co.uk/product_range.php
[19:16:14] <Elkhorn> but is FederalMogul / Westwinds type gas turbine airbearing, not electrically operated.
[19:16:30] <Elkhorn> works on gas pressure & airflow.
[19:16:47] <Elkhorn> cant find pic on their site tho..
[19:18:35] <Elkhorn> basically high speed router/drill .
[19:19:41] <Elkhorn> can mill pcb sheet up to 6mm thick but that real slow, 3mm pcb + copper one side can mill about 3inch a minute.
[19:20:41] <Elkhorn> so wont be fast but will be high precision... (other project is precise milling of resonant cavities for antennas)
[20:04:35] <jmkasunich> ok, who wants a free Zip drive
[20:04:50] <eric_U> does it have the click of death?
[20:05:00] <jmkasunich> I dunno
[20:05:50] <eric_U> John, what signal should I hook my drive enable up to in HAL?
[20:06:14] <jmkasunich> I think there is something like axis.n.enable? do a hal show sig to see what is available
[20:06:38] <cradek> something-amp-enable-something
[20:07:04] <jmkasunich> oops, hal show pin, not sig
[20:07:15] <jmkasunich> the sigs don't exist until your config creates them
[20:07:15] <eric_U> i was gonna say, no sigs :)
[20:08:45] <eric_U> I see all the m5i20 pins
[20:09:49] <jmkasunich> "show pin axis" will show just the ones that start with axis
[20:10:00] <jmkasunich> (emc has to be running when you do this of course)
[20:10:13] <eric_U> not just halcmd
[20:10:19] <eric_U> that would explain a few things
[20:10:24] <jmkasunich> start emc in one shell
[20:10:31] <jmkasunich> run halcmd in another
[20:11:03] <jmkasunich> thats the standard way to examine a running EMC/HAL setups
[20:11:29] <eric_U> if I am running emc2 from a terminal, are there arguments?
[20:11:46] <jmkasunich> nope
[20:12:05] <jmkasunich> actually you can continue running emc from an icon, just open a shell for halcmd
[20:12:13] <jmkasunich> (I'm used to doing everything from shell)
[20:12:36] <eric_U> doing it remotely, never done that before
[20:13:22] <eric_U> oops scripts didn't like realtime stuff already being loaded
[20:14:34] <jmkasunich> start emc first, that loads the RT
[20:14:40] <jmkasunich> then just run halcmd by itself
[20:14:44] <jmkasunich> no scripts, no halrun
[20:14:50] <eric_U> I had been playing with the halpy scripts
[20:15:06] <eric_U> which doesn't unload cleanly
[20:16:25] <eric_U> this looks promising: axis.2.amp-enable-out ==> Zenable
[20:17:38] <eric_U> so what was the conclusion on the m5i20 driver?
[20:18:58] <jmkasunich> inadequate data
[20:19:17] <eric_U> if I get my mill running, it's actually connected to the internet
[20:19:19] <jmkasunich> he's gonna grab some more traces and we'll take another shot at figuing it out
[20:19:26] <eric_U> I'm currently running 2.2.1 though
[20:20:05] <eric_U> my home switches are currently connected with duct tape, so I can move them
[20:20:19] <jmkasunich> I am insane
[20:20:45] <jmkasunich> I'm sitting here thinking "that zip drive head actuator mechanism is cool, I should save that and use it for something someday"
[20:20:59] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: welcome to the club :)
[20:21:11] <eric_U> what kind of actuator is it?
[20:21:31] <jmkasunich> linear voice coil
[20:22:08] <eric_U> I saved the heads off an ibm hard drive because they are big
[20:22:22] <skunkworks_> different than a harddrive head mechenism?
[20:22:32] <eric_U> no, but they are huge
[20:22:32] <jmkasunich> harddrive is rotary
[20:22:51] <skunkworks_> ah
[20:22:53] <jmkasunich> zip is linear - a tiny hardened and polished rod is the guide
[20:22:54] <eric_U> good point
[20:23:30] <eric_U> I always thought it was funny that they asked the iomega engineers where they wanted to live
[20:23:37] <eric_U> probably thinking somewhere in utah
[20:23:43] <eric_U> answer was colorado
[20:24:34] <eric_U> I probably would have said Park City
[20:33:06] <eric_U> cool, amp-enable works exactly the way I want it to work
[20:38:37] <jmkasunich> damn, wish I had a pop-riviter
[20:40:24] <BigJohnT> you can borrow mine
[20:40:37] <dmess> or 1 of mine
[20:40:39] <jmkasunich> only $16.97.... seems like a good excuse to own another tool
[20:40:55] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich is doing radical computer case surgery
[20:41:24] <BigJohnT> what are you mounting in there?
[20:41:39] <jmkasunich> I'm shrinking it
[20:41:58] <jmkasunich> mounting the power supply above the cpu side of the mobo, and the disk above the expansion slots
[20:42:00] <BigJohnT> chopping and channeling your rod
[20:42:05] <jmkasunich> and cutting the rest off
[20:42:22] <jmkasunich> final size is gonna be about 13.5 x 10.5 x 8.5
[20:43:05] <dmess> but she might heat up too...
[20:43:12] <jmkasunich> nah
[20:43:22] <jmkasunich> there aren't gonna be any covers or anything
[20:43:41] <jmkasunich> the whole contraption goes into a 24 x 30 x 9" hoffman style box
[20:43:53] <jmkasunich> and that has a filtered air inlet with a blower
[20:44:28] <BigJohnT> so your just using the guts of the case as a way to mount everything inside of your enclosure
[20:44:35] <jmkasunich> yep
[20:44:41] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/shoptask/box-02-13-07.jpg
[20:44:45] <jmkasunich> the PC goes in the lower right
[20:44:58] <jmkasunich> cabling from the maching comes in the middle of the right side wall
[20:45:36] <BigJohnT> don't you love the button hole plugs
[20:45:43] <jmkasunich> yep
[20:45:56] <jmkasunich> the amazing part is that they were already on the box when I bought it
[20:46:12] <BigJohnT> Sweet
[20:46:13] <jmkasunich> whoever surplused that box must have read my mind
[20:46:44] <BigJohnT> we use a ton of them at our shop when we rebuild equipment
[20:47:10] <BigJohnT> looking good
[20:47:32] <jmkasunich> I wouldn't want to buy those new on a hobby budget tho
[20:47:42] <jmkasunich> I got that one for $50 from a surplus place
[20:48:12] <BigJohnT> I see $30 worth of hole plugs in the picture
[20:48:18] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[20:48:33] <jmkasunich> on the same trip I got a 14 x 16 x 6 box for $25
[20:48:54] <jmkasunich> it had a 50 pin ribbon cable to screws breakout board inside, suitable for use with a mesa board
[20:48:59] <jmkasunich> the breakout sells for $40 ;-)
[20:49:37] <BigJohnT> sweet
[20:49:45] <BigJohnT> you ever use this stuff http://web4.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Terminal_Blocks_-a-_Wiring_Solutions/Wire_Duct_-a-_Accessories/T1_Series_Wire_Duct_with_Cover/T1-1010G-1
[20:50:05] <jmkasunich> at work, yes
[20:50:14] <jmkasunich> I dunno if I'm gonna use it for this project or not
[20:50:53] <jmkasunich> I might just go with ty-wrap pads and ty-wraps
[20:50:54] <BigJohnT> sometimes it just gets in the way sometimes its great
[20:51:25] <BigJohnT> we use a ton of spiral wrap too that is some neat stuff
[20:52:21] <BigJohnT> http://web4.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Terminal_Blocks_-a-_Wiring_Solutions/Wire_Duct_-a-_Accessories/Spiral_Wrap/P-2
[20:52:58] <BigJohnT> its cost effective and we use it to tame cords, wires, pneumatic tubing etc
[21:01:41] <JymmmEMC> <Dr Nick>: Hi Everybody!
[21:42:13] <jmkasunich> I sure hope it gets a few degrees warmer (or even colder), or we're gonna have some very unhappy trees
[21:42:14] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/pics/icy-branches-1737.jpg
[21:48:17] <skunkworks_> * skunkworks_ read that as icy-britches
[21:52:04] <BigJohnT> it's raining here and the wife is making deer balls
[21:53:30] <jmkasunich> not touching that one
[21:53:59] <BigJohnT> think meat balls but very lean
[21:56:28] <skunkworks_> around here - eveyone mixes a ton of pork with thier deer meat
[21:57:09] <BigJohnT> she make these with straight deer meat and they are good and good for you
[21:58:01] <BigJohnT> if you process it correctly it doesn't taste gamey
[21:58:11] <skunkworks_> BigJohnT: where are you located?
[22:00:40] <BigJohnT> Poplar Bluff, MO
[22:00:43] <BigJohnT> you?
[22:00:57] <skunkworks_> trempealeau, Wi
[22:01:34] <BigJohnT> shiver me timbers but don't it get cold up there
[22:01:52] <BigJohnT> my buddy is from WI and goes up there all the time
[22:02:03] <BigJohnT> he lives in St Louis now
[22:02:35] <skunkworks_> heh. It has been cold. 15 deg f right now.
[22:02:53] <BigJohnT> it's like 40 here and very moist
[22:04:27] <skunkworks_> that is t-shirt weather around here.
[22:05:20] <alex_joni> * alex_joni heads to bed
[22:05:23] <alex_joni> good night all
[22:05:44] <skunkworks_> night alex
[22:07:33] <BigJohnT> night alex
[22:26:11] <dmess> windy???
[22:30:31] <dmess> any one have any comments on this http://www.water-4-fuel.com/
[22:31:15] <jmkasunich> hogwash
[22:34:19] <jmkasunich> actually, fraud seems more accurage
[22:34:22] <jmkasunich> accurate
[22:35:23] <BigJohnT> just a a fraud
[22:35:45] <toastydeath> +1 fraud
[22:36:22] <BigJohnT> it's just a small scale hydrogen/oxygen generator that takes more power to run that it give back to the engine...
[22:36:46] <BigJohnT> your better off with a wood gas generator for your car LOL
[22:36:52] <jmkasunich> its actually $97 to download a "book" that tells you how to make that thing
[22:37:10] <jmkasunich> interesting that they show bound books, but what they are selling is a pdf
[22:37:16] <BigJohnT> as pt says there is a sucker born every minute
[22:37:20] <jmkasunich> they don't even pay for the paper - 100% profit
[22:38:33] <BigJohnT> ok now face.py has a Inch MM radiobutton...
[22:39:17] <BigJohnT> that puts G20 or G21 at the start of the file
[22:40:10] <BigJohnT> speaking of pc'
[22:40:12] <BigJohnT> s
[22:40:52] <BigJohnT> pc's before I am planning on mounting my gecko's and power supply in a pc box
[22:41:01] <BigJohnT> with my breakout board
[22:41:13] <BigJohnT> should be nice an portable
[22:41:58] <BigJohnT> and for windows users I've added a shooting solution for face.py to emcwiki
[22:43:17] <BigJohnT> on emcwiki
[22:57:17] <dmess> i have video of the car running on FULL HHO
[22:58:44] <eric_U> best use for hydrogen is to allow you to lean your mixture, full hydrogen production is a scam
[23:00:23] <dmess> but it could increase milage for sure...
[23:02:18] <dmess> even just the water vapor wave would smooth and increase power as does water injection an even an old bake and break engine...
[23:03:48] <nbuck> alex_joni or jmkasunich a new homing plot is online at http://www.freedrive.com/files/8il35w2d5sowc/Homing2sIndexEnable2.png
[23:05:28] <nbuck> there's also a log file of the same name in the folder
[23:13:46] <jmkasunich> looking at it now
[23:14:20] <nbuck> great
[23:14:48] <jmkasunich> index enable is doing exactly what it should
[23:14:51] <jmkasunich> as is pos fb
[23:14:54] <jmkasunich> and home-state
[23:15:04] <jmkasunich> but pos cmd should be jumping to zero, and it isn't
[23:15:08] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich is perplexed
[23:15:14] <jmkasunich> cause this has worked for a long time
[23:15:23] <jmkasunich> gonna look at the code and see what I can find
[23:15:46] <jmkasunich> do you have your ini and hal files?
[23:16:00] <nbuck> fyi the other driver version that alex_joni provided was exactly the same file size as the one that was already on my system
[23:16:35] <jmkasunich> I just thought of something that could explain what we're seeing, but I need to see your hal files
[23:16:39] <nbuck> i did try using it after performing the test you've just seen but insmod refused to insert it - I wonder whether it's compatible with 2.2.1
[23:16:57] <jmkasunich> thats ok
[23:16:58] <jmkasunich> do you have your ini and hal files?
[23:17:06] <nbuck> no problem, give me a couple of minutes and I'll upload them
[23:20:06] <nbuck> ok they're uploaded - some of the servo links are moved from core_servo to sabre_toolchange - the comments in sabre_toolchange will explain why
[23:21:35] <BigJohnT> night night
[23:22:35] <jmkasunich> my head is spinning as I try to figure out all the offsets that are being added and subtracted in this code
[23:23:13] <nbuck> i know it's a bit of a pain - basically there are two offsets - one for tool change pos and one for tool retract pos
[23:23:37] <jmkasunich> no, I'm talking about lower level offsets down in the motion controller
[23:24:02] <jmkasunich> home offset, motor offset, backlash correction offset, and various sums and differences of them
[23:26:07] <nbuck> home offset is 0, i thought i had backlash set to set as well, not sure what you mean by the others?
[23:26:35] <jmkasunich> that is helpfull info
[23:26:48] <jmkasunich> they the other stuff is internal, I'm just thinking out loud
[23:26:48] <nbuck> are you talking about references in the ini file or hal files
[23:26:54] <nbuck> oh ok
[23:27:25] <jmkasunich> neither - if you are curious, see http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//code_Code_Notes.html#r3_2 for a block diagram of the stuff I'm talking about
[23:30:04] <nbuck> part of my tool change logic in sabre_toolchange hijacks the cmd and fb pins but is only activated during tool change operations and anyway it works fine when homing without index
[23:30:17] <nbuck> just thought i'd point it out incase it's relevant
[23:30:25] <jmkasunich> machine zero is supposed to be at the index pulse right after the home switch? (that is what home offset = zero implies)
[23:30:55] <nbuck> yep that's what i was expecting
[23:34:00] <alex_joni> I think I spotted the problem
[23:34:11] <alex_joni> it's an issue with the order functions are added to the thread
[23:34:27] <nbuck> I'm all ears
[23:34:29] <alex_joni> nbuck: I bet it only is an issue for the Z axis though
[23:34:35] <jmkasunich> thats what I was thinking, but then I thought again, and figured it didn't matter
[23:34:42] <jmkasunich> so I got into the code and never checked the order
[23:34:57] <alex_joni> you have a couple of muxes between Zpos-cmd and dac
[23:35:06] <alex_joni> and a mux between Zpos-fb and motion controller
[23:35:08] <jmkasunich> oh
[23:35:19] <alex_joni> the ones you use to hijack the position for the toolchanging
[23:35:26] <nbuck> with you
[23:35:29] <jmkasunich> I was right that order between driver and control wouldn't do that, but the mux sure could
[23:35:41] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: delay?
[23:35:57] <jmkasunich> delay, yes, but not screwing up the index-enable handshape
[23:36:00] <jmkasunich> k
[23:36:17] <jmkasunich> but with a mux between the encoder and control, that would do it
[23:36:48] <alex_joni> wonder how it worked on 2.1.7 then..
[23:36:48] <jmkasunich> the order MUST be - read encoder, evaulate fb mux, run control, evaluate cmd mux, run PID, etc
[23:37:19] <nbuck> ah ok - suddenly light coming on
[23:37:19] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: did we change the default order for a simple addf ?
[23:37:32] <alex_joni> addf mux2.1 servo-thread
[23:37:35] <jmkasunich> its hard to figure out the thread order looking at multiple hal files, wish we could see "halcmd show thread"
[23:37:44] <jmkasunich> by default, that adds to end of thread
[23:38:11] <nbuck> right
[23:38:27] <jmkasunich> if you add a number to the end, it puts the function at position N in the thread
[23:38:39] <jmkasunich> if the number is negative, it puts it N from the end of the thread
[23:39:05] <jmkasunich> although using that syntax is brittle and should be avoided IMO
[23:39:11] <nbuck> Yes - I had deliberately defined them in the order shown - guess i just screwed up
[23:39:18] <jmkasunich> better to do all addfs for a thread in one place in one hal file
[23:39:40] <jmkasunich> nbuck: I haven't yet figured out what order you actually have them in, so this is still just speculation
[23:39:46] <nbuck> yes I think I'll combine everything into 1 file - i was planning on doing that in the end
[23:40:15] <jmkasunich> does the sabre_toolchange hal file add the muxes?
[23:40:22] <nbuck> but if this were the case wouldn't it cause homing without the index pulse to exhibit the same behaviour
[23:40:28] <nbuck> yes it does
[23:40:34] <alex_joni> yes, http://www.freedrive.com/file.php?action=download&key=8il35w2d5sowc&file=sabre_toolchange.hal
[23:40:38] <jmkasunich> that means that mux probably runs last in the thread
[23:41:04] <jmkasunich> when not using index, the thread order error only causes a 1mS delay
[23:41:36] <alex_joni> when not using index, the encoder position only gets remembered (not reset)
[23:41:39] <nbuck> right
[23:41:42] <alex_joni> thus you won't have the jump..
[23:42:02] <jmkasunich> but when you are using index, it means that when the encoder sets its output to zero and tells the motion controller about it (by way of index enable going false), motion still sees the old non-zero value, and calculates the offset according to that
[23:42:38] <nbuck> so if you don't home to an index pulse then home offset has no effect?
[23:42:53] <jmkasunich> it has an effect
[23:42:54] <alex_joni> nbuck: it does.. just gets applied differently lets say
[23:43:00] <jmkasunich> but the calculations are different
[23:43:03] <nbuck> ok
[23:43:40] <jmkasunich> without offset, the position coming from the encoder doesn't change abruptly, instead motion simply subtracts out whatever it was to get to the right position
[23:43:45] <jmkasunich> oops
[23:43:46] <nbuck> well this would certainly explain why i thought it was working on on x and y - because it probably was!
[23:43:57] <jmkasunich> no muxes there?
[23:44:07] <alex_joni> right
[23:44:07] <nbuck> no that's right
[23:44:42] <jmkasunich> ok, my suggestion is to merge your hal files, and get things in the right order
[23:44:49] <nbuck> well don't I feel stupid - I'm really sorry for tying up both of your time for what appears to be pilot error
[23:45:07] <nbuck> yes will definately do that
[23:45:15] <jmkasunich> it sounds like you understand the issues ( which is a non-trivial thing, and don't feel bad about it tripping you up)
[23:45:35] <alex_joni> nbuck: it's a good excersise at least :)
[23:45:48] <alex_joni> and it's not resolved.. (so far it's only a guess..)
[23:46:02] <nbuck> yes - implementing the tool change has taught me a whole lot about the hal and ladder
[23:46:23] <jmkasunich> one of the things on my "that would be nice" list would be for threads to determine which functions feed which other functions, and put them in the right order automagically
[23:46:45] <nbuck> well tomorrow I'll tweak the order and merge the files and see if it fixes it
[23:47:06] <alex_joni> and let us know
[23:47:14] <nbuck> automagically would be nice but then I guess you potentially lose an element of control
[23:47:18] <jmkasunich> after loading your config but before trying to run it, do "halcmd show thread" to check the order
[23:47:38] <nbuck> will do - and of course you'll be the first to know
[23:47:40] <jmkasunich> in fact, you should load the old config and so "show thread" to see if the mux is really after control
[23:47:46] <alex_joni> nbuck: in the "inprobable" event it doesn't run.. halcmd save > file
[23:48:03] <nbuck> yep
[23:48:22] <nbuck> I'm pretty sure the mux is after it
[23:49:07] <jmkasunich> that sure is consistent with what we're seeing
[23:49:13] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich goes to make dinner
[23:49:33] <nbuck> infact looking at the screenplot again I think you can see the delay between pos and cmd
[23:50:13] <alex_joni> * alex_joni goes to bed
[23:50:17] <alex_joni> this time for real :)
[23:50:38] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: do you have that
[23:50:44] <alex_joni> what?
[23:50:50] <nbuck> thanks again guys - will report back tomorrow
[23:51:01] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: sorry, typo. have a good night
[23:51:18] <alex_joni> thanks, you too