#emc | Logs for 2007-11-30

[00:04:25] <cradek> jmkasunich: should I get a 2HP or 3HP vfd to drive my 2HP spindle?
[00:04:44] <cradek> hm they're out of stock on the 2HP
[00:11:02] <cradek> hm, wonder if I need a "line reactor"
[00:12:01] <cradek> http://web2.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/AC_Drives/GS2_(115_-z-_230_-z-_460_-z-_575_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control)/GS2-23P0
[00:16:54] <JymmmEMC> cradek: what are you doing?
[00:17:07] <cradek> bridgeport spindle
[00:17:18] <JymmmEMC> cradek: oh, you finally got a machine?
[00:17:25] <cradek> I've had it for some time
[00:17:37] <JymmmEMC> ah
[00:18:44] <JymmmEMC> did you make your own breakout board?
[00:19:15] <cradek> it's running stock right now
[00:19:47] <JymmmEMC> manual?
[00:19:52] <cradek> no it's a cnc
[00:20:16] <JymmmEMC> just the spindle control went bye bye?
[00:20:37] <cradek> no I'd like a speed control without air required, and also to get rid of my rotary converter
[00:21:02] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/bridgeport/DSCN6324.JPG
[00:21:07] <JymmmEMC> phumatic spindle?
[00:21:13] <cradek> I don't have a recent picture but this is from the night I got it in the garage
[00:21:39] <cradek> it has an 'air motor' to control the varispeed drive
[00:21:50] <JymmmEMC> ah, gotcha
[00:22:06] <cradek> currently it doesn't need air except when changing spindle speed
[00:22:19] <JymmmEMC> and it takes gcode directly?
[00:22:23] <cradek> I don't have constant shop air so i'd like to remove that requirement
[00:22:30] <cradek> yes it takes a variant of gcode
[00:26:05] <JymmmEMC> servoc even =)
[00:26:09] <JymmmEMC> servos
[00:26:32] <cradek> yes is there some other way to move a machine that I haven't heard of? :-)
[00:26:58] <cradek> oh, cranks, I forgot
[00:27:03] <JymmmEMC> Of course... you do have a water wheel and a river near by, don't ya?
[00:27:12] <cradek> nope
[00:27:29] <JymmmEMC> Then grab the neighbors garden hose =)
[00:27:44] <cradek> I will convert it to emc one of these days - it would work much better
[00:27:57] <cradek> but, so far I've been able to fix all its problems so it's working fine
[00:28:18] <JymmmEMC> you could toss in a micro atx board in there
[00:28:37] <cradek> I could put a small school bus in it
[00:28:44] <JymmmEMC> lol
[00:28:48] <skunkworks> I think he could put a rack mount server in there
[00:29:01] <cradek> in the back cabinet probably (it has 3)
[00:29:12] <skunkworks> buses?
[00:29:15] <skunkworks> ;)
[00:29:18] <cradek> ha
[00:29:30] <JymmmEMC> short buses
[00:29:47] <skunkworks> makes sense as it is a bridgeport..
[00:29:55] <skunkworks> (short buses)
[00:30:20] <JymmmEMC> Well, a nice 11" touch lcd in the front might be kinda cool
[00:30:42] <cradek> I have an 8"? screen for it
[00:30:54] <cradek> I don't think I'll have touch screen though
[00:31:01] <cradek> I think it really doesn't work very well
[00:31:11] <JymmmEMC> tkemc seems liek it would
[00:31:23] <JymmmEMC> isn't that what it was intended for?
[00:31:28] <cradek> I mean touch screens don't work very well in general
[00:31:57] <cradek> I don't think any of our guis were made with exactly touchscreens in mind
[00:32:01] <JymmmEMC> I think it depends on what they are, I've seen some VERY nice ones in POS applications
[00:32:15] <cradek> I think they would all work with varying degrees of success
[00:34:10] <JymmmEMC> between RE mgnt and thinking out-of-the-box could produce soem nice results
[00:34:23] <cradek> ?
[00:35:01] <JymmmEMC> using the available space properly and some creative thinking for the UI - not necessarily "commonplace"
[00:35:33] <cradek> yes it would be interesting to see what someone could come up if making a UI just for a touch screen.
[00:36:02] <cradek> you would have to fight the instinct to make a regular gui except with everything big
[00:36:07] <JymmmEMC> I don't have a touch screen, or I might give it a shot.
[00:36:25] <cradek> it would be easy to do it badly I think.
[00:36:44] <JymmmEMC> that's where "thinking-out-of-the-box" comes into play
[00:36:49] <cradek> right
[00:36:59] <cradek> if you have ideas, write them down, it can't hurt
[00:37:59] <JymmmEMC> I think the biggest issue is what the tools are capabale of more than anything else.
[00:38:30] <JymmmEMC> like just touch -vs- tocuh and slide as example
[00:39:22] <skunkworks> I played with SWPadnos's touch screen with emc2 and axis.. It seemed usable.
[00:39:33] <cradek> skunkworks: barely though I bet
[00:39:54] <skunkworks> that was 2 years+ years ago.. so it may not be exactly as I remember
[00:39:57] <cradek> I've tried that a bit too. it was painful but usable
[00:40:03] <cradek> err is
[00:40:42] <JymmmEMC> cradek: in axis, how much is really opengl? Just the 3d wire display?
[00:40:57] <cradek> everything in the preview window
[00:41:09] <JymmmEMC> and outside the preview window?
[00:41:26] <cradek> regular tk
[00:41:29] <JymmmEMC> k
[00:41:55] <JymmmEMC> cradek: as example, would it me posisble to embed the preview window within tkemc?
[00:42:17] <cradek> 'simple matter of programming'
[00:42:28] <JymmmEMC> you know what I mean
[00:42:58] <skunkworks> So - I had one of the drives of a raid 5 servers (older) it had maxtor 74.3 gb drives(about) in it. I bought some seagate 73.4 gb drives. guess what.. they where just a little bit smaller. would not work.
[00:43:15] <cradek> skunkworks: ouch!
[00:43:19] <skunkworks> yes.
[00:43:32] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks: why would you buy the same size drives instead of much larger ones?
[00:44:14] <skunkworks> price and I didn't want to waste larger drives
[00:44:18] <cradek> 80+ GB scsi drives are still expensive
[00:44:21] <skunkworks> yes
[00:44:27] <JymmmEMC> skunkwork oh scsi, nm
[00:44:44] <skunkworks> actually those to drives where the same size in the add 74.3 and 74.3
[00:44:53] <skunkworks> sorry - typing too fast
[00:45:13] <skunkworks> so I boutght some fugitsu 74.5 drives in hopes that it is bigger ;)
[00:45:18] <JymmmEMC> I'm looking at getting a 3TB NAS box
[00:45:42] <skunkworks> right now on my desk I have 750gb sata drives
[00:45:49] <skunkworks> 6 of them
[00:46:01] <JymmmEMC> *maybe* the 5 drive one so I can have a hot spare and the 4port gigbit switch in it
[00:46:18] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks: what are you tossing those in?
[00:46:25] <skunkworks> I am looking at a 5 drive external sata box
[00:46:35] <skunkworks> esata interfase
[00:46:40] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks: fuck sata box, get a nas box instead
[00:47:25] <JymmmEMC> hang on...
[00:47:40] <skunkworks> uh huh.. I got the sata drives for $130 a piece
[00:47:51] <skunkworks> could not pass that up
[00:48:24] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks: http://www.thecus.com/products_over.php?cid=12&pid=32
[00:48:34] <skunkworks> that gives me 3tb with a spare
[00:48:59] <skunkworks> cool
[00:49:30] <JymmmEMC> it has dual gig ports, usb a and b, and eSATA port
[00:49:53] <JymmmEMC> I THINK it has a serial port for UPS too, might be different model though
[00:50:03] <ds2> okay back
[00:50:34] <ds2> if they were half logs, 2 blocks would work, problem is I want something much less then that
[00:50:50] <JymmmEMC> ds2: pcv pipe cut in half
[00:50:50] <ds2> not sure how it would work on a mill unless you mean do surfacing with a ball endmill
[00:51:18] <ds2> JymmmEMC; I am trying to heat form a sheet of clear acrylic to something that looks like a PVC pipe peice
[00:51:41] <JymmmEMC> use a piece of pvc pipe cut in half as the mold
[00:51:59] <ds2> doesn't PVC melt before acrylic softens?
[00:52:06] <ds2> don't want it to bond
[00:52:31] <JymmmEMC> then use it as a positive, make a negative using bondo or something, then there ya go
[00:52:46] <ds2> I like that idea
[00:52:56] <JymmmEMC> could use metal pipe too
[00:52:59] <ds2> easier then trying to super offset a chunk of aluminum in a 4J chuck
[00:53:24] <ds2> I am trying to form something that would probally take a 6inch PVC pipe
[00:53:41] <ds2> so metal might be a bit clumsy to work with for this
[00:53:44] <JymmmEMC> or even a clay/cement draining pipe
[00:54:00] <ds2> JymmmEMC: who sells clay pipes around here?
[00:54:09] <JymmmEMC> oh, what about a terracota roof tile?
[00:55:08] <JymmmEMC> also, pre-mixed drywall spakel is cheap too =)
[00:55:34] <ds2> who sells terricotta roof tiles around here?
[00:55:43] <JymmmEMC> a roofing company?
[00:55:49] <JymmmEMC> call around
[00:55:57] <Ziegler> plaster of paris works well
[00:55:59] <JymmmEMC> I suspect somebody does.
[00:56:00] <ds2> a pipe is nice since I need to be able to "predict" the final shape mathematically
[00:56:07] <ds2> Hmmm
[00:56:22] <ds2> circles are easy to calculate ;)
[00:57:21] <Ziegler> pvc and acrylic shouldnt bond...
[00:57:40] <ds2> not even after it is softened?
[00:58:07] <Ziegler> what temp are you taken the acylic to ?
[00:58:11] <Ziegler> acrylic*
[00:58:22] <ds2> softening temperature, don't have numbers yet
[00:58:37] <ds2> seen those bent/curved picture frames? that's essentially what I want
[00:59:13] <Ziegler> ahhh
[00:59:15] <ds2> something like the curved stuff here, but in plastic:
[00:59:17] <ds2> http://www.wealthwood.com/crystal/picture_frames.htm
[00:59:29] <JymmmEMC> http://www.ludowicirooftile.com/index.cfm
[00:59:40] <JymmmEMC> http://www.abcsupply.com/Product/ProductTypeDetail.aspx?id=182
[00:59:52] <Ziegler> going to heat up the acrylic and then press it over the "form"
[00:59:54] <Ziegler> ?
[01:00:13] <ds2> either that or I put the plastic on top of the form and stick it in the oven
[01:00:46] <JymmmEMC> ds2: http://www.abcsupply.com/StoreLocator/StoreDetail.aspx?storeId=094
[01:01:38] <Ziegler> I have never done it myself... but I was thinking working temps for something like that were 200-250 F
[01:01:40] <JymmmEMC> they probably have scraps the are broke
[01:01:45] <ds2> nice
[01:02:05] <ds2> that's near that lumber place on monterey
[01:02:16] <JymmmEMC> Ziegler: I think at the high heat the pvc would contaminate the acrylic though
[01:02:23] <Ziegler> I think pvc is the same
[01:02:33] <ds2> need it to remain optically clear
[01:03:12] <ds2> going to use it as the basis for some christmas items, inspired by all the engraved glass versions out there
[01:03:27] <Ziegler> cool... sounds like a fun project
[01:03:36] <Ziegler> I have been wanting to do vac forming for awhile
[01:03:45] <ds2> vac forming is just to make the blank
[01:04:55] <ds2> the dollar store had some very nice LED powered stand to display plastic peices
[01:08:46] <Ziegler> fwiw... I just heated a small piece of plexi glass over a heat source and pressed it over a scrap of pvc I have laying around
[01:09:02] <Ziegler> it worked ok... but may not be what you want.
[01:09:03] <ds2> and did it retain its optical quality?
[01:09:06] <Ziegler> yes
[01:09:15] <ds2> Hmmm
[01:09:45] <Ziegler> (burned my thumb... but the plexi glass has a nice finger print in it!)
[01:10:11] <ds2> that's easy to solve... good gloves and extra material as handle ;)
[01:11:40] <eric_U> why press it over pvc, sorry I came late to this discussion
[01:12:03] <Ziegler> no reason to
[01:12:45] <eric_U> the trick would be to avoid imprinting the surface finish of the mold onto the plexi
[01:13:08] <ds2> *nod* that's why bond is so attractive, can polish that very well
[01:14:23] <Ziegler> I just took a toarch to the plexi, and that worked too
[01:14:23] <eric_U> I missed that part of the conversation
[01:14:56] <eric_U> I used a paint stripper heat gun which takes a little concentration
[01:14:57] <Ziegler> tho it bubbled up in an area where I had it too long... but still clear... not milky when bent
[01:15:26] <eric_U> seems like slapping it in the oven when the wife is out shopping would work well
[01:15:33] <eric_U> put it in a frame
[01:15:43] <Ziegler> heat the kitchen oven up to 250 and let sit for 5 minute or so
[01:16:05] <Ziegler> hehe yeah eric
[01:16:24] <eric_U> i have a link to someone who does large scale vacu-form and did his that way
[01:16:34] <eric_U> but he used pvc just like Mattel did
[01:16:55] <ds2> he used a show vac right?
[01:17:00] <eric_U> yeah
[01:17:06] <ds2> think I saw that
[01:17:09] <Ziegler> what is a show vac?
[01:17:19] <eric_U> shop vac from hollywood
[01:17:20] <ds2> big vacumm cleaner
[01:17:25] <ds2> usually with a hose attached
[01:17:29] <Ziegler> ah.
[01:17:33] <Ziegler> anyone have a link?
[01:17:54] <ds2> http://www.shopvac.com/
[01:18:12] <Ziegler> err... I ment to the guy who does the vac forming
[01:18:13] <ds2> plenty of clones out there
[01:18:16] <ds2> Oh hehe
[01:18:36] <ds2> this is a tiny one:
[01:18:37] <ds2> http://www.sci-spot.com/Mechanical/vacu.htm
[01:18:44] <Ziegler> ahh... "show" was a type eh
[01:18:45] <ds2> don't have the big one handy
[01:22:19] <eric_U> http://www.pteroworks.com/pteros.htm
[01:22:26] <eric_U> sorry, just kidding
[01:23:33] <eric_U> I'm pretty sure I saved it on my del.icio.us page, but I can't find it
[01:41:20] <jmkasunich> cradek: still around?
[01:46:54] <cradek> yep
[01:50:50] <jmkasunich> regarding VFDs
[01:50:59] <jmkasunich> the automation direct link was 404
[01:51:26] <cradek> oh, it must have only worked for me
[01:51:37] <jmkasunich> if possible and affordable, I'd go up one size from the motor rating
[01:51:50] <cradek> it's only $50 more
[01:52:00] <jmkasunich> were you browsing for a future project, or about to place an order?
[01:52:22] <cradek> well sometime soon I'll be able to convert to single phase
[01:52:34] <cradek> so I might order one soon
[01:52:41] <jmkasunich> the reason I ask is that I probably have or can find a surplus one
[01:52:47] <jmkasunich> (I collect VFDs it seems)
[01:52:56] <eric_U> you have enough for all of us?
[01:52:57] <cradek> ooh, cool
[01:53:05] <cradek> I'd be happy to buy one from you instead of them
[01:53:05] <jmkasunich> eric_U: hard to say
[01:53:19] <jmkasunich> I pick them up and bring them home, but rarely go to the trouble of testing them
[01:53:31] <ds2> jmasunich: you got some bare board VFDs?
[01:53:36] <eric_U> I have the same problem
[01:53:43] <cradek> these look like they have a lot of neat features, like at-speed output, programmable acceleration, rs232/rs485 control, etc
[01:53:47] <eric_U> but not that much with vfds
[01:54:07] <jmkasunich> cradek: the ones I have are without manuals
[01:54:18] <jmkasunich> they may or may not have some or all of those neet features
[01:54:23] <eric_U> that makes it a little difficult
[01:54:32] <jmkasunich> and manuals may or may not be available online
[01:55:54] <cradek> btw: it looks like a tilting head (B axis) should work fine on max
[01:56:05] <cradek> but I'm working on the design still
[01:56:15] <jmkasunich> rotary between the Z slide and the head proper?
[01:56:40] <cradek> yes
[01:56:49] <cradek> with pivot somewhere down around the tool
[01:58:47] <jmkasunich> nice
[01:59:06] <jmkasunich> how much do the AD vfd's cost?
[01:59:21] <cradek> www.automationdirect.com, "AC Drives"
[01:59:30] <cradek> "GS2"
[01:59:44] <cradek> $289 for 3hp 1ph in 3ph out
[01:59:46] <jmkasunich> wow, cheap
[01:59:50] <cradek> yeah
[01:59:59] <cradek> ray recommends them
[02:00:14] <jmkasunich> if its rated for 1ph in, the oversizing is less of an issue
[02:02:48] <jmkasunich> DB built in too...
[02:03:02] <jmkasunich> to be honest, unless you are really cheap (like me), those sound hard to beat
[02:03:14] <jmkasunich> manuals, specs, and even a warranty
[02:03:20] <cradek> thank you for the advice, I'll buy one
[02:03:41] <cradek> do I need any of those accessories (line reactor)?
[02:03:41] <jmkasunich> the 2 HP should be fine
[02:04:06] <jmkasunich> probably no need for the line reactor
[02:04:10] <jmkasunich> they are used for two things
[02:04:17] <jmkasunich> 1) reducing harmonics
[02:04:35] <jmkasunich> 2) limiting peak currents when small drives are used on large (stiff) power lines
[02:04:45] <jmkasunich> a residential line is small by definition
[02:05:27] <cradek> ok
[02:05:32] <cradek> braking resistor?
[02:05:48] <jmkasunich> DB kits - hard to day, depends on how much DB is in the drive, how fast you want to stop, and how much inertia you are stopping
[02:05:53] <cradek> I will eventually want to tap with it, but probably not right away
[02:06:44] <cradek> currently this coasts to a stop in 3-4? seconds (in high gear)
[02:06:54] <jmkasunich> looks like the 2HP already containst the DB transistor ( and I think a resistor)
[02:07:07] <jmkasunich> all you need to add is a beefier external resistor
[02:07:40] <cradek> I think the 3hp does too. resistor is $70 instead of $60
[02:08:14] <cradek> maybe I should get it since I will NOT have a real brake
[02:08:33] <cradek> well I do, but it's hand operated now (I use it to tighten/loosen the nut only)
[02:08:40] <jmkasunich> it's a power resistor for pete sake
[02:08:53] <jmkasunich> if you buy that retail your scrounging license will be revoked
[02:09:01] <cradek> ha
[02:09:19] <ds2> do like what HAAS does, use a electric stove element instead ;)
[02:09:43] <jmkasunich> sure
[02:09:45] <JymmmEMC> Stove element is just NiChrome... makes sense
[02:10:01] <ds2> a lotcheaper then a proper power resistor
[02:10:11] <JymmmEMC> Just cut length to fit
[02:10:24] <ds2> from the way it looks, the Haas uses it intact
[02:10:30] <JymmmEMC> could even use one of those electric bbq starters
[02:10:34] <jmkasunich> looks like the 2HP resistor is 100ohms 300 watts
[02:11:01] <JymmmEMC> cradek: just bring a ohm meter with ya to the repair shop =)
[02:11:13] <cradek> 70ohm 300W
[02:11:34] <jmkasunich> 22P0 drive = 100 ohms
[02:11:36] <JymmmEMC> resistance goes down as heat goes up
[02:11:41] <jmkasunich> or are you going to get the 3HP?
[02:11:47] <cradek> yeah it's in stock
[02:11:56] <jmkasunich> impatient I see
[02:12:18] <cradek> it seems unlikely I'd regret getting 50% larger for a bit more money
[02:12:34] <jmkasunich> assuming you can fit it in the box, you're probably right
[02:12:43] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich is cheap, sometimes I pinch pennies when I shouldn't
[02:12:47] <cradek> it's like 6" cube
[02:13:11] <jmkasunich> 70 ohms draws 1500 watts when connected across a 325V DC bus
[02:13:40] <jmkasunich> they use a 300 watt resistor with a limited duty cycle
[02:13:51] <cradek> yeah it says 10%
[02:14:03] <cradek> if you're braking more than 10% of the time, you're doing something very wrong
[02:14:11] <jmkasunich> If you ever were doing lots of tapped holes, you'd be reversing a lot
[02:14:16] <jmkasunich> (twice per hole)
[02:14:29] <cradek> yeah
[02:15:59] <cradek> even when tapping you'd not be braking too large a percentage of the time
[02:16:08] <cradek> maybe 10 or 20% at the most
[02:22:37] <jmkasunich> GE 1250 watt (approx 46 ohms) stove element $13.86
[02:22:50] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich is a fscking cheapskate
[02:24:53] <cradek> the electrical element is isolated from the outside of those right?
[02:25:34] <jmkasunich> yeah
[02:26:00] <jmkasunich> else many cooks with metal pans would be lying dead in kitchens all across America
[02:27:44] <cradek> well that's true.
[02:28:02] <jmkasunich> (duh moment)
[02:35:52] <jmkasunich> is it just me, or is the idea of using a PC to run diesel fuel injectors just a little bizarre?
[02:39:53] <cradek> I disagree that it's only a little bizarre
[02:40:01] <jmkasunich> heh
[02:40:27] <jmkasunich> I just did the math, and am surprized to see that one degree of timing at 3000 RPM is 55uS
[02:40:41] <jmkasunich> so a system with 10uS or so latency could do pretty accurate timing
[02:40:50] <cradek> I hadn't noticed that my maxnc and sherline rotary tables are the same
[02:41:02] <jmkasunich> I don't know how long injectors need to stay open, or how accurate that time needs to be
[02:41:04] <cradek> wonder if they both have a common ancestry or if sherline makes them
[02:41:25] <jmkasunich> wouldn't be surprised if sherline makes them
[02:41:27] <cradek> I think the "on" time is extremely critical but I don't know what the numbers are
[02:41:45] <cradek> but I only know about gas engines
[02:41:49] <jmkasunich> I suspect on time determines the amount of fuel delivered
[02:41:54] <cradek> sure
[02:42:06] <cradek> the fuel rail is at a certain pressure all the time. on time is all you have
[02:42:31] <jmkasunich> I also suspect that even with perfect hardware/software and timing, you'd need a dynamometer and months of testing to determine the settings for all possible engine operating points
[02:42:35] <jmkasunich> lots of work for a one-off
[02:43:01] <cradek> yes you may get it to run, but running could well would be another story
[02:43:10] <cradek> running well
[02:43:10] <jmkasunich> how does an electronically injected diesel develop injection pressure anyway?
[02:43:20] <jmkasunich> they can't be running the rail at 1000 psi, can they?
[02:43:26] <cradek> very high pressure fuel rail is my guess
[02:43:45] <cradek> where else would it come from?
[02:44:21] <cradek> A common rail injection system separates these two functions (generating pressure and injecting) by first storing fuel under high pressure in a central accumulator rail and then delivering it to the individual electronically-controlled injection valves (injectors). This ensures that incredibly high injection pressures (in some cases over 25,000 pounds per square inch) are available at all times.
[02:44:44] <cradek> (did that all make it through?)
[02:46:04] <jmkasunich> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Rail
[02:46:19] <jmkasunich> 1000+ bar = 14000 psi
[02:46:30] <jmkasunich> yes, it came thru
[02:47:31] <jmkasunich> "Some advanced common rail fuel systems perform as many as five injections per stroke"
[02:47:32] <jmkasunich> wow
[02:47:56] <cradek> bizarre, I wonder why
[02:48:37] <jmkasunich> it says that a little fuel injected prior to the main injection can reduce noise and vibration
[02:49:17] <cradek> huh
[02:49:51] <jmkasunich> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGwV9ueHcz4
[02:50:02] <jmkasunich> probably more informative if I could hear it
[02:50:40] <cradek> no sound here either
[02:50:50] <jmkasunich> maybe there isn't any - it has text
[02:51:28] <cradek> I mean this computer is incapable
[02:53:42] <jmkasunich> according to the vid, post-injection is used to control exhaust gas temp and NOX emissions
[02:53:48] <jmkasunich> sounds like rocket science to me
[02:54:15] <cradek> heh
[02:54:48] <cradek> to adjust the carburetor on a lawnmower, run it at night, turn the screw in until it runs rough, then out until the muffler stops glowing red, done!
[02:55:03] <cradek> ^^ my engine tuning knowledge
[02:55:12] <jmkasunich> heh
[02:57:33] <jmkasunich> I've never been fond of infernal combustion engines
[03:02:14] <cradek> they are handy but not very good for us
[03:05:19] <toastydeath> horseypowers
[03:09:48] <Jessica> hey folks, is it kosher to ask general cnc questions in here? spindle speeds, bits, etc?
[03:09:59] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:10:04] <Jessica> tyvm
[03:10:23] <Jessica> for cutting pcbs, what speeds n feeds you all use?
[03:10:33] <jmkasunich> if an emc specific discussion is going on its polite not to interrupt with off topic stuff, but if its quiet, you can talk about almost anything
[03:10:50] <Jessica> thx jmk
[03:10:57] <jmkasunich> cradek should be able to answer that, he does PCBs
[03:11:06] <jmkasunich> couple others in here to too IIRC
[03:11:14] <Jessica> cradek, you around?
[03:11:15] <jmkasunich> do too
[03:12:02] <toastydeath> doesn't it not really matter?
[03:12:08] <Jessica> i'm trying to get the bit right, as well as the spindle speed and feedrate
[03:12:30] <jmkasunich> spindle speed is probably as fast as you can go, unless you have a very high speed spindle
[03:12:56] <Jessica> I'm getting all kinds of shutter as i try and make my cuts.
[03:13:03] <toastydeath> what are you parameters
[03:13:11] <Jessica> my spindle is a variable speed dremel
[03:13:23] <toastydeath> what rpm and feed
[03:13:29] <Jessica> running at around 15k
[03:13:43] <Jessica> i've also tried 30k
[03:13:47] <toastydeath> teeny tiny engraving cutter?
[03:13:50] <jmkasunich> do you know what the runout is? dremels aren't very precise
[03:13:58] <jmkasunich> http://timeguy.com/cradek/cnc/pcb
[03:14:21] <Jessica> i've used a diamond tip pointed cutter
[03:14:24] <jmkasunich> 20K rpm, 20 inches/min, 60 degree carbide V tool
[03:14:25] <toastydeath> yeah, that's what i would expect
[03:14:35] <toastydeath> something in that ballpark
[03:14:47] <Jessica> 20 ipm?
[03:14:47] <toastydeath> what is your feed rate
[03:14:55] <jmkasunich> (that's from a page on cradek's site, dunno how current that info is)
[03:14:59] <jmkasunich> 20 inches per minute
[03:15:27] <Jessica> my feed was all over. i tried very slow (5mm a sec) to about 1 inch per sec
[03:15:42] <Jessica> slow seemed to work better
[03:15:51] <jmkasunich> 12 to 60 ipm
[03:16:01] <toastydeath> 60 ipm is waaay too fast for brittle materials
[03:16:03] <jmkasunich> yeah, 60 seems very fast
[03:16:40] <Jessica> what kind of bit?
[03:16:49] <toastydeath> anything at all should work
[03:17:07] <toastydeath> from a ground HSS tool, to carbide, to real fancy diamond tools
[03:17:22] <jmkasunich> "60 degree carbide V tool" is what cradek's webpage says
[03:17:22] <Jessica> do you all go for tiny tiny pass depths?
[03:17:27] <jmkasunich> (did you read that page yet?)
[03:17:40] <Jessica> was gonna after i finished here
[03:17:42] <toastydeath> i don't machine pcbs, i play a machinist in real life
[03:17:48] <toastydeath> so i don't know what you're saying by small depths
[03:17:55] <jmkasunich> I don't machine PCBs either
[03:17:57] <toastydeath> i've heard. 030 tossed around
[03:18:01] <toastydeath> for a depth of cut
[03:18:02] <toastydeath> on pcbs
[03:18:05] <jmkasunich> ?
[03:18:08] <toastydeath> .030"
[03:18:10] <toastydeath> sry
[03:18:16] <eric_U> you want to cut all the way through the copper on the first pass
[03:18:17] <jmkasunich> the copper is only 0.001 or 0.002 thick
[03:18:38] <jmkasunich> the board is only 0.060, so cutting 0.030 deep is a bit much ;-)
[03:18:46] <toastydeath> oh
[03:18:54] <Jessica> hehe
[03:18:54] <toastydeath> i guess they're using a thick board then
[03:19:03] <toastydeath> or whatever it is
[03:19:04] <jmkasunich> Jessica: I suggest you look at that page, and then ask any more questions that you have
[03:19:09] <eric_U> what hold down technique? that's pretty important
[03:19:18] <jmkasunich> cradek might be back by then (he was here a little while ago)
[03:19:32] <Jessica> ok, i'll give it a try.
[03:19:34] <Jessica> thx all!
[03:19:41] <Jessica> bbiab
[03:19:42] <jmkasunich> chris used to use double sided carpet tape, now he has a vacuum table
[03:19:53] <toastydeath> double sided tape is so awesome
[03:20:06] <toastydeath> i know a guy who ran a 56" Bullard VTL
[03:20:07] <eric_U> not a bad idea
[03:20:11] <toastydeath> who used to do double sided tape
[03:20:24] <jmkasunich> 10 square feet of double sided tape
[03:20:33] <toastydeath> yeah man
[03:20:35] <toastydeath> i laughed so hard
[03:20:49] <eric_U> sadly he was killed by a workpiece
[03:20:52] <toastydeath> he was doing 4x8 sheets of .5" plate steel
[03:21:51] <toastydeath> he only had one or two come loose
[03:21:55] <toastydeath> after crashing the tool into the table
[03:22:10] <toastydeath> apparently you can get a lot of holding force with that stuff
[03:22:14] <toastydeath> if you keep all your surfaces clean
[03:22:18] <toastydeath> the only detrement was heat
[03:22:26] <toastydeath> heat or lubricant would make it let go
[03:22:35] <eric_U> very strong in shear
[03:22:38] <toastydeath> but it would start to chatter really bad before it went, so they just stopped it.
[03:32:50] <crotchetyGuy> cradek- could you give me some info on the math transforms you are using for your 5-axis simulation? I would like to write a post for it. We could give you some 5-axis programs for it. The output of cam programs is usually tip location and tool vector direction.
[03:42:37] <cradek> crotchetyGuy: it's the simplest possible: BC define the tool vector, XYZ are the endpoint
[03:42:55] <jmkasunich> remember earlier this evening, I said sometimes I'm too cheap for my own good?
[03:43:03] <jmkasunich> I just proved it
[03:43:06] <toastydeath> ?
[03:43:20] <jmkasunich> two days ago, ordering a tooth belt pulley from McMaster
[03:43:31] <jmkasunich> I need a 1/2" bore, they only have 1/4"
[03:43:41] <jmkasunich> option 1, solid steel, $15
[03:43:43] <cradek> crotchetyGuy: B0 is tool point down, B90 C0 is tool pointing "right" (+X)
[03:43:56] <jmkasunich> option 2, plastic with aluminum hub, 7/8" OD hub, $7
[03:44:03] <jmkasunich> so of course I buy the cheap one
[03:44:09] <cradek> ouch
[03:44:11] <toastydeath> hahaha
[03:44:12] <jmkasunich> "I can bore the hub out to 1/2" no problem"
[03:44:18] <cradek> I can guess the problem here
[03:44:28] <jmkasunich> except that the hub is only 7/8 outside the pulley
[03:44:42] <toastydeath> hahahah
[03:44:43] <jmkasunich> inside, it necks down to about 1/2 where the plastic is molded around it
[03:44:47] <toastydeath> natch
[03:45:34] <jmkasunich> anybody need a plastic pulley with no hub and a 1/2" (approx) hole in the middle?
[03:45:43] <crotchetyGuy> The output from apt is of the form x,y,z,i,j,k- i,j,k being the tool vector. I would need a matrix transform to convert to actual angles- that's the part I'm not sure about.
[03:46:04] <toastydeath> ?
[03:46:12] <toastydeath> ijk as in like, another point on the tool centerline?
[03:47:00] <cradek> I don't understand your tool vector representation
[03:48:05] <crotchetyGuy> i,j,k is the direction of a vector in the x,y,z axis respectively, of course.
[03:51:17] <cradek> if it's a unit vector I think B = atan2(sqrt(i^2+j^2)/k) and C = atan2(j,i)
[03:51:23] <crotchetyGuy> for example, in the 4-axis mill I use, the A axis is on the x-axis, and the tool vector is composed of i and j values, with k necessarily zero.
[03:51:37] <eric_U> on the Mazak, how far are the home switches from the limit switch
[03:51:55] <cradek> eric_U: close enough that home stays tripped all the way into the limit
[03:51:59] <crotchetyGuy> You have to think about the tool rotating around the part, not the part rotating.
[03:52:07] <cradek> eric_U: other than that, it doesn't matter
[03:52:40] <cradek> eric_U: (probably an inch or three)
[03:52:49] <eric_U> that's gonna be about 12" for my case :)
[03:53:09] <jmkasunich> the mazak at the workshop has home no more than an inch away, maybe 1/2"
[03:53:17] <cradek> eric_U: doesn't matter as long as you can't get on the "wrong" side of the home switch, because then emc doesn't know which way to go to home
[03:53:26] <eric_U> right
[03:53:51] <cradek> crotchetyGuy: do you have enough information now or how else can I help?
[03:55:25] <crotchetyGuy> cradek: I guess I can try, and give it to you to see what happens.
[03:55:41] <crotchetyGuy> I will see what I can do..
[03:55:44] <cradek> you can run it yourself too, just get the w_tool_length cvs branch
[03:56:05] <cradek> it's very easy to see how the rotary axes work
[03:56:30] <cradek> but, I think I gave you the right transforms above (+- a pi or two)
[03:58:06] <cradek> err I meant B = atan2(sqrt(i^2+j^2),k) not /k of course
[04:06:10] <cradek> well that sure killed the discussion
[04:06:41] <jmkasunich> deader 'n a coffin nail
[04:07:25] <jmkasunich> did you see the person seeking the collected channel's knowledge of PCB milling?
[04:07:31] <cradek> yes
[04:08:00] <eric_U> problems probably stem from the use of a dremel
[04:08:07] <jmkasunich> we gave them something... don't know if it would be called knowledge or not
[04:08:15] <jmkasunich> I was thinking that too
[04:08:16] <cradek> yeah I don't know what runout is on a dremel.
[04:08:22] <eric_U> depends on the year
[04:08:30] <eric_U> some were good, some really bad
[04:08:35] <cradek> I cut .005 deep, ~20krpm, 20ipm
[04:09:01] <eric_U> some effectively had a flexible shaft internal to the machine
[04:09:28] <cradek> the rule for those tools is spin it as fast as you possibly can and cut at .0005 per tooth
[04:09:32] <jmkasunich> yeah, I took apart one that had a piece of what looked like aquarium hose
[04:09:52] <eric_U> 2 or three bearings is the big difference
[04:10:10] <jmkasunich> bearing, motor, bearing, end of shaft, hose, hose, start of new shaft, bearing, inch of shaft, bearing, collet nose
[04:10:17] <jmkasunich> oops, only one hose
[04:10:39] <cradek> they have really bad collets too don't they?
[04:10:48] <eric_U> for many years in the late '80s and early '90s, they skipped one of the bearings they have now
[04:11:12] <cradek> if you are cutting paths .008 wide, small runout definitely helps
[04:11:23] <eric_U> if the whole tool folds under sideload, the runout of the collet isn't really all that important
[04:11:30] <jmkasunich> and if you are cutting 0.0005 per tooth
[04:11:50] <jmkasunich> runout of 0.0005 means no load on one tooth and 0.0010 on the other
[04:12:30] <cradek> it's almost as if dremels aren't machine tool spindles
[04:12:33] <toastydeath> worst case.
[04:12:42] <eric_U> almost
[04:12:46] <jmkasunich> darn those dremel people!
[04:12:56] <eric_U> they do sell a router base
[04:13:18] <cradek> I saw a youtube video of someone drilling (deep) holes in aluminum with a 1/8 drill in a dremel - couldn't believe it
[04:13:54] <eric_U> lots of nice guitars made with dremels too
[04:14:21] <eric_U> although they have really gone out of style among luthiers
[04:14:29] <cradek> I guess 300sfm at 1/8" is 10krpm...
[04:14:33] <jmkasunich> you _can_ make a silk purse out of a sow's ear... it's just easier to use silkworms
[04:14:45] <cradek> so it's just as ridiculous to use a 1/8" drill in a bridgeport
[04:14:53] <eric_U> luthiers are really really good at fixing guitars
[04:15:23] <eric_U> you fix as you build
[04:15:33] <toastydeath> depends on how you define ridiculous
[04:16:03] <cradek> I have my 5axis design in mind ... need one more stepper and driver though
[04:16:19] <eric_U> whatfer gearboxes are you going to use?
[04:16:25] <cradek> the rest is "simply" cutting up some aluminum and tapping "a few" holes in it
[04:16:36] <cradek> eric_U: little 4" rotary tables
[04:16:45] <cradek> I happen to have two of them (one is cnc already)
[04:16:54] <eric_U> sherline type?
[04:16:57] <cradek> yes
[04:17:20] <eric_U> I gave in and ordered a 4 axis set of boards from pminmo
[04:17:47] <cradek> that's smart. waste of time to build your own (even though that's what I did)
[04:18:02] <toastydeath> index tables or contouring tables
[04:18:19] <eric_U> whazza countouring table?
[04:18:22] <cradek> ?
[04:18:33] <toastydeath> contouring tables can be run simultaniously with other axes
[04:18:47] <eric_U> then contouring
[04:18:49] <toastydeath> index tables don't have a worm drive
[04:18:50] <cradek> that's a matter of software
[04:18:53] <toastydeath> more accurate
[04:18:55] <cradek> oh
[04:18:57] <cradek> these are worm
[04:18:59] <toastydeath> but can't contour
[04:19:05] <toastydeath> ah
[04:19:13] <toastydeath> ohhhh they're modded rotary tables
[04:19:14] <toastydeath> ?
[04:19:47] <cradek> I don't understand
[04:19:52] <cradek> they're just rotary tables so far :-)
[04:19:55] <toastydeath> oh.
[04:20:14] <eric_U> http://cgi.ebay.com/Mini-Rotary-Table-fits-sherline-mill-mini-mills_W0QQitemZ260187349623QQihZ016QQcategoryZ104242QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[04:20:28] <toastydeath> ohhhhh
[04:20:30] <toastydeath> yeah
[04:20:33] <toastydeath> okay.
[04:20:49] <cradek> that doesn't look anything like them, but same idea
[04:21:03] <eric_U> here is a real bargain
[04:21:05] <eric_U> http://cgi.ebay.com/Pneumatic-Indexing-Rotary-Table_W0QQitemZ150187760436QQihZ005QQcategoryZ41943QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[04:21:28] <toastydeath> as long as you only need 36 divisions, then yes
[04:21:42] <eric_U> and have a pneumatic control system
[04:22:27] <toastydeath> here you go
[04:22:28] <toastydeath> http://cgi.ebay.com/Moore-1440-Precision-Index-Rotary-Table_W0QQitemZ3819481251QQihZ020QQcategoryZ41943QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[04:22:29] <eric_U> sherline rotary table looks nice
[04:23:16] <eric_U> wow, a bargain at 1/100 of the price
[04:23:40] <toastydeath> hahaha.
[04:23:48] <eric_U> I should see if he wants to make me an offer on my Moore grinding heads
[04:24:04] <toastydeath> jig grinder spindles?
[04:24:18] <eric_U> it was off a very special machine
[04:24:41] <toastydeath> ?
[04:24:52] <eric_U> I think I have 40, 60 and 80k spindles
[04:24:55] <toastydeath> is it a 60k, 80k, 100k, or 175k spindle?
[04:25:04] <toastydeath> yes, a jig grinder spindle
[04:25:11] <eric_U> they replaced them with air bearing spindles
[04:25:47] <toastydeath> http://cgi.ebay.com/MOORE-3-JIG-GRINDER-SUPER-CLEAN_W0QQitemZ310002368381QQihZ021QQcategoryZ92150QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[04:25:51] <toastydeath> they go on that.
[04:26:35] <eric_U> no, it was a pretty special machine
[04:26:50] <toastydeath> uh, what special machine
[04:26:58] <eric_U> the guys I got them from actually use jig grinders without the top on them
[04:27:14] <eric_U> It's been a while since they explained it to me
[04:28:05] <toastydeath> do you remember what it did
[04:28:40] <eric_U> I never saw it in it's full configuration.
[04:28:46] <toastydeath> no i meant what the machine was for
[04:28:57] <eric_U> not sure
[04:29:13] <eric_U> moore actually donated it to this lab
[04:29:25] <toastydeath> a universal measuring machine?
[04:29:35] <eric_U> no, it was built as a grinder
[04:29:50] <eric_U> parts of it are floated on oil
[04:29:58] <toastydeath> hydrostatic ways.
[04:30:05] <toastydeath> and maybe dampers
[04:30:06] <eric_U> sounds right
[04:30:37] <eric_U> they have a batch of measuring machines converted to grinders
[04:30:50] <eric_U> looks like the table off the jig bore grinder
[04:31:57] <toastydeath> moore offered any custom crap you wanted on your jig grinder
[04:32:13] <toastydeath> if you wanted interferometer axes, capstan drives, and hydrodynamic ways
[04:32:16] <toastydeath> they'd gladly charge you for it
[04:32:30] <eric_U> I take it this was a very expensive machine
[04:32:50] <toastydeath> anything moore made was ridiculously pricey, so yeah, especially so of custom grinders
[04:35:09] <eric_U> I have about 5 harmonic gearboxes, been thinking about making rotary axes out of some of those
[04:35:26] <toastydeath> ?
[04:35:44] <toastydeath> never heard of a harmonic gearbox
[04:35:46] <eric_U> they are used in robots
[04:36:02] <eric_U> they don't look like they should work
[04:36:24] <eric_U> there is a flexible cup with teeth, a rigid outer ring with matching teeth
[04:36:37] <eric_U> and they are driven by an eccentric bearing inside the cup
[04:37:37] <eric_U> http://cgi.ebay.com/HARMONIC-DRIVE-HD-SYSTEMS-SF-20-100-Gear-Set-Used_W0QQitemZ150176441333QQihZ005QQcategoryZ42924QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
[04:38:06] <toastydeath> cool man
[04:38:25] <eric_U> the thing on the bottom left appears to be complete
[04:38:31] <eric_U> needs another bearing for the shaft
[04:43:03] <jmkasunich> grrrr
[04:43:30] <jmkasunich> damn Y axis mounting plate only has about a 0.390 hole in it for the motor shaft
[04:43:45] <eric_U> on what?
[04:44:12] <toastydeath> BORE IT OUT
[04:44:15] <toastydeath> LIKE A GANGSTAH
[04:44:34] <eric_U> If only we knew someone with some machine tools
[04:44:40] <jmkasunich> drill it out!
[04:44:48] <jmkasunich> (it's just a clearance hole)
[04:44:48] <toastydeath> edm it!
[04:45:00] <toastydeath> USE ION BEAM FIGURING
[04:45:12] <toastydeath> (brb in 20 years)
[04:46:30] <eric_U> if only one of us would remember this conversation and travel back in time with an ion beam figuring machine
[04:46:52] <toastydeath> or if one of us had a spare 50k to buy one
[04:46:54] <toastydeath> right now
[04:47:11] <eric_U> we probably have to wait for them to show up on ebay
[04:47:23] <toastydeath> the cheapest i've seen one used is 19k
[04:47:28] <toastydeath> without the vacuum equipment
[04:47:59] <jmkasunich> 20 years isn't the time needed to get the machine, its the time needed for the machine to enlarge a 3/8" hole to 1/2"
[04:48:19] <jmkasunich> fortunately a drill bit took it to 5/8" in considerably less time
[04:48:26] <toastydeath> or did it
[04:48:31] <eric_U> where's the fun in that?
[04:48:36] <toastydeath> what if you were suddenly propelled to near the speed of light
[04:48:41] <toastydeath> and eons passed for the rest of us
[04:49:11] <eric_U> sorta like when you push your worst enemy into a black hole
[04:49:19] <eric_U> you never see them die
[04:49:46] <eric_U> but from their perspective, they die immediately
[04:49:56] <jmkasunich> drilling at near light speed makes elliptical holes
[04:50:05] <toastydeath> i once shot a man who was pushed into a black hole.
[04:50:27] <toastydeath> jmkasunich: depends on if the drill is on axis or normal to the direction of travel
[04:50:55] <eric_U> is that how those square drill bits work?
[04:51:32] <jmkasunich> toastydeath: if its
[04:51:34] <jmkasunich> oops
[04:51:50] <jmkasunich> if its normal, you can just us a punch (even tho the part is 1/2" thick)
[04:52:29] <toastydeath> just get a big press
[04:53:14] <jmkasunich> or a single stationary molecule
[04:53:26] <toastydeath> hahah.
[04:53:48] <eric_U> I need a reversing contactor
[04:54:08] <jmkasunich> hydrogen for a 1/4" hole, helium for 1/2"
[04:54:11] <jmkasunich> lead for 3"
[04:55:04] <eric_U> do they make normally closed contactors?
[04:55:19] <jmkasunich> not common
[04:55:24] <eric_U> bummer
[04:55:29] <jmkasunich> usually reversing is done by two contactors side by side
[04:55:37] <jmkasunich> one wired for forward, one for revers
[04:55:42] <jmkasunich> energise one or the other
[04:56:08] <jmkasunich> real reversing contactors have both electrical and mechanical interlocks to prevent turning both on at once
[04:56:51] <eric_U> yeah, not quite what I want since both can be off
[04:57:15] <jmkasunich> you're not running a motor?
[04:57:31] <eric_U> no, drives
[04:57:54] <eric_U> for emergency stop
[04:58:46] <toastydeath> just rig some thermite up
[04:58:48] <toastydeath> over your servos
[04:58:57] <toastydeath> "FEED HOLD, NO SERIOUSLY"
[04:59:34] <eric_U> large cast iron shrapnel is specifically the thing I seek to avoid with this system
[04:59:54] <eric_U> but thanks for the helpful suggestion
[05:00:17] <toastydeath> see!
[05:00:20] <toastydeath> it would be welded shut.
[05:00:24] <toastydeath> no shrapnel!
[05:01:04] <eric_U> cast iron like they use in machine tools has approximately zero impact strength
[05:02:05] <eric_U> I almost have room for a set of disk brakes in my x axis
[05:04:46] <eric_U> going to 24vdc control really drives up the cost of a contactor
[05:07:56] <jmkasunich> woot! I now have steppers attached to X and Y
[05:08:01] <jmkasunich> and the belts fit and everything!
[05:18:53] <Jessica> cradek, you around?
[05:29:16] <fenn> Jessica: apparently the answer is "as fast as your dremel can go, 0.0005 feed per rev"
[05:30:19] <fenn> so at 20,000 rpm that's about 5mm/sec
[05:33:22] <cradek> .0005 per tooth (.001 per rev)
[05:33:44] <fenn> the vee bits have two teeth?
[05:34:10] <fenn> i cant even picture that
[05:34:14] <cradek> depends what you call a tooth
[05:34:21] <cradek> this is what the manufacturer told me (I had to ask)
[05:35:18] <cradek> so looks like that is 500mm/min if you can get 20krpm
[05:36:01] <cradek> you should get dust and a clean looking cut
[05:37:40] <cradek> goodnight...
[05:42:38] <Jessica> back again
[05:42:53] <Jessica> just tried a diamond 60 degree
[05:43:07] <Jessica> got lousy results
[05:43:29] <Jessica> if i do shallow cuts it just skitters over the copper.
[05:43:45] <Jessica> and too deep, i trash my traces
[05:44:34] <Jessica> i had been using toner-transfer to make my boards, but i thought this might get better results. doesn't seem to as of yet.
[05:44:54] <jmkasunich> spindle runout is important, don't know how good the dremel is
[05:45:14] <jmkasunich> I also don't know what "diamond 60 degree" means
[05:45:27] <Jessica> w/ toner-transfer, i get .5mm traces and can build boards for smd devices. has anyone gotten those kind of results with a mill?
[05:45:29] <jmkasunich> diamond as in carbon crystals? or diamond shaped?
[05:45:48] <Jessica> jmk, like a glass etching bit
[05:45:53] <jmkasunich> you saw the pic on cradek's page?
[05:45:59] <Jessica> yeah
[05:46:18] <jmkasunich> 0.01" wide
[05:46:25] <Jessica> i'm doing 8-soic components
[05:46:34] <jmkasunich> it's past midnight, so my brain is turned off, you'll need to convert that to mm
[05:46:38] <Jessica> .01" wide is ~.5mm, right?
[05:47:02] <jmkasunich> 0.254mm
[05:47:28] <Jessica> that would work...
[05:47:30] <jmkasunich> "The IC pads are on a .05" spacing, the connector on the left is .1", and the connector on the right is 4mm"
[05:47:44] <jmkasunich> I think I see the problem tho
[05:47:50] <jmkasunich> "glass etching bit"
[05:47:58] <jmkasunich> that is a grinding tool, not a cutting tool
[05:48:09] <Jessica> ahhh
[05:48:25] <jmkasunich> http://thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voli/store/mechmill.htm
[05:48:39] <Jessica> do i want the bit that looks cut in half from the point back?
[05:48:44] <jmkasunich> I think that is what cradek uses (he links to the vendor from his page, but not to a specific page)
[05:50:24] <jmkasunich> $9.15 each, not real cheap, but not too bad
[05:50:54] <Jessica> och!
[05:51:02] <jmkasunich> are you in the US?
[05:51:09] <Jessica> at the moment
[05:51:59] <Jessica> these are prototypesi'm building at the mo. I'm gonna use a fabber for the production runs
[05:52:01] <jmkasunich> I'd give thinktink a call
[05:52:08] <Jessica> thx jmk
[05:52:26] <jmkasunich> ISTR they were very helpful for chris (cradek)
[05:52:49] <jmkasunich> they can probably tell you if a dremel will work - if the runout is too severe it will just ruin the bit
[05:53:31] <Jessica> i'm building a new mill that will use a trimrouter instead of the dremel.
[05:53:33] <fenn> usually the runout comes from the collet, so maybe try a different collet
[05:53:46] <Jessica> but that project is on hold at the mo
[05:54:21] <Jessica> ok, well, i'm off to be. tired of listening to the whine of the machine.
[05:54:27] <Jessica> thanks for all of your help
[05:54:35] <jmkasunich> time for sleep here too
[05:54:41] <jmkasunich> you're welcome, and good luck
[05:54:46] <Jessica> *smiles*
[05:54:48] <Jessica> ttys
[05:55:26] <fenn> hey that ip's in bloomington
[07:14:27] <toastydeath> ffff
[07:43:12] <cnc_engineer> Can we use TkEMC Interface to control a lathe machin/
[07:45:34] <cnc_engineer> Does Emc provide the support of multi cycle thread cutting?
[07:50:01] <alex_joni> cnc_engineer: yes, and I'm not sure
[07:50:04] <toastydeath> multi cycle thread cutting?
[07:50:15] <toastydeath> you just mean the threading cycle.
[07:50:29] <toastydeath> and i thought it did.
[07:53:01] <cnc_engineer> Is there any difference in using of TkEMC or Axis to control a lathe?
[07:54:23] <toastydeath> just the gui
[07:57:54] <fenn> g76 will do multiple threading passes
[07:58:18] <toastydeath> all the cool kids use die heads for threading anyway
[07:58:21] <toastydeath> who uses threading cycles
[07:58:40] <fenn> uh, right.
[08:00:29] <cnc_engineer> I need to re-compile the emc2. For that, How can I get a complete package required (that should be downloable)?
[08:02:21] <fenn> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#Preparing_Ubuntu_to_compile_emc2
[08:02:56] <fenn> you actually need to re-compile, and not just get the newest version right?
[08:05:41] <cnc_engineer> I need a recompilation package that can be downloaded once and could be installed many times without going online.
[08:06:01] <fenn> i think you are using the words wrong
[08:06:19] <fenn> do you want to modify the source code?
[08:08:15] <cnc_engineer> fenn: yes, I want to modify the source and recompile it, but want not to get online after a new installation of Ubuntu.
[08:08:55] <fenn> ok, you will need to download a bunch of packages then.. i'm looking for the page that describes how to do that
[08:09:50] <cnc_engineer> fenn:Yes please
[08:10:57] <fenn> well obviously the info is in the wrong place :)
[08:14:10] <fenn> ok i cant find the instructions so i will make something up
[08:16:40] <fenn> `apt-get --print-uris build-dep emc2; apt-get --print-uris install build-essential` should give you a list of packages to download
[08:17:26] <fenn> you can redirect the output to a file with >>
[08:17:58] <fenn> then you can use wget -i to read the url's from the file and download them
[08:18:25] <fenn> then dpkg -i *.deb
[08:24:52] <fenn> i think some massaging of the file contents is necessary
[08:25:11] <fenn> i'm certain this was on the wiki before
[08:29:57] <fenn> this might help http://olympus.het.brown.edu/cgi-bin/dwww?type=text/plain&location=/usr/share/doc/apt-doc/offline.text.gz
[09:35:17] <fenn> well, it could be worse: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#without_an_internet_connection
[09:35:46] <fenn> in fact, it probably is worse, since i havent actually tried that :\
[12:02:08] <CIA-23> 03tissf 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/ (Submakefile index.tmpl index_fr.tmpl): French translation
[12:02:08] <CIA-23> 03tissf 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/gcode/ (mill_canned_fr.lyx main_fr.lyx tool_compensation_fr.lyx): French translation
[12:13:47] <CIA-23> 03tissf 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/gcode/tool_compensation_fr.lyx: French transaltion previous is broken
[12:29:24] <CIA-23> 03tissf 07v2_2_branch * 10emc2/docs/src/ (Submakefile index.tmpl index_fr.tmpl): French translation
[12:29:24] <CIA-23> 03tissf 07v2_2_branch * 10emc2/docs/src/gcode/tool_compensation_fr.lyx: French translation
[13:50:57] <CIA-23> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/hal/ (intro.lyx intro_fr.lyx): remove example that does not reflect the current structure of emc2's hal modules
[13:52:24] <CIA-23> 03jepler 07v2_2_branch * 10emc2/docs/src/hal/ (intro.lyx intro_fr.lyx): remove example that does not reflect the current structure of emc2's hal modules
[15:36:59] <jepler> wow, what a terrible "datasheet". http://www.kelinginc.net/KL-4030.pdf
[15:37:26] <jepler> apparently for a Pluse/Direction Stepper Driver
[15:39:20] <cradek> it reminds me of a website I've seen recently
[16:00:21] <LaciN> Hi! I need some help with the EMC 2.2.1 installation
[16:04:22] <jepler> OK?
[16:04:30] <jepler> which part?
[16:07:41] <LaciN> we use debian linux with rtai 3.3 cv
[16:07:57] <LaciN> just installed gcc 3.4
[16:08:21] <jepler> as far as I know, emc 2.2 should work with that system.
[16:08:45] <LaciN> emc2 asked for it, but we can't install emc2.2.1 because we recive the following error msg:
[16:09:18] <LaciN> version.h not found by checking for linux headers
[16:09:59] <LaciN> sorry kernel headers
[16:10:12] <cradek> have you built your realtime kernel and rtai already?
[16:10:42] <jepler> emc relies on the rtai-config script to know the correct location of the kernel headers. If it is wrong, you should be able to override it by specifying --with-kernel=headers=
[16:11:13] <LaciN> yes, we are using emc2.1.x at the moment and that works
[16:14:02] <jepler> please use the site pastebin.ca to show me the ./configure commandline and output for both emc 2.1 and emc 2.2. Perhaps I will be able to spot the relevant difference.
[16:18:48] <jepler> here's what I get on my system (ubuntu 5.10): http://pastebin.ca/802714
[16:23:58] <LaciN> ok emc 2.1 on hhtp:/pastebin.ca/802725
[16:25:58] <LaciN> and we failed by configuring emc2.2.1
[16:27:34] <jepler> I still want to see the output that configure printed, even if it failed
[16:28:50] <jepler> are you sure that first pastebin is from emc 2.1? What does the file "VERSION" say?
[16:29:37] <LaciN> sorry 2.0.1
[16:29:51] <LaciN> a 0. was missing
[16:30:42] <jepler> ok, than you for checking
[16:30:46] <jepler> thank you
[16:30:46] <LaciN> the 2.2.1 configuration is on http:/pastebin.ca/802728
[16:32:44] <jepler> in the old version, you specified this flag to configure: --with-rtai=/RTAI-3.3-cv
[16:33:12] <jepler> in the new version you did not specify this flag. This meant a different rtai-config script was used.
[16:34:07] <jepler> "Using /usr/bin/rtai-config as the RT signature" vs "Using /RTAI-3.3-cv/bin/rtai-config as the RT signature"
[16:34:36] <LaciN> we overwrote the rtai config file rtai_cc="gcc-3.0"
[16:35:29] <jepler> in emc2.2 the --with-rtai configure flag was renamed to --with-realtime=
[16:35:46] <jepler> so for emc2.2 you should try ./configure --with-realtime=/RTAI-3.3-cv
[16:37:15] <LaciN> it works now, now we have problems with the python version we hope we solve this problem
[16:37:27] <LaciN> thanks for helping us
[16:37:33] <jepler> you're welcome
[16:37:47] <jepler> bbl
[17:01:27] <LaciN> hi! if u r still there we have some other questions...
[17:01:59] <LaciN> you would have never thought but we are beginners
[17:04:25] <jepler> just ask your questions .. someone here may be able to help you
[17:05:19] <LaciN> we finished configuration but errors occured by the compiling
[17:05:47] <jepler> use pastebin to show us the errors.
[17:07:20] <LaciN> we put the config results on http:/pastebi.ca/802754 and the error msg on http:/pastebi.ca/802757
[17:07:34] <LaciN> +n
[17:14:22] <jepler> what is the version of gcc (gcc -dumpversion)?
[17:15:02] <LaciN> 3.0
[17:18:03] <LaciN> how is it possible, that the configuration found rtai moduls, but not rtai?
[17:18:20] <jepler> the emc2.2 build system assumes that "gcc -MM -MD -o test.d test.c" create dependency information for the file test.c in the output file test.d; your pastebin indicates that your version of gcc writes the dependency information to standard output instead.
[17:21:37] <jepler> specifically, it should work as shown here: http://pastebin.ca/index.php
[17:21:52] <jepler> if it doesn't, then you have to modify the DEP = line in src/Makefile to accomodate whatever your compiler needs
[17:22:04] <cradek> he means http://pastebin.ca/802779
[17:22:22] <jepler> emc2 is not routinely tested with gcc versions older than gcc 3.4
[17:22:24] <jepler> oops thanks cradek
[17:24:56] <cradek> checking for xgettext tcl bug... xgettext version 0.14.4 buggy -- need at least 0.14.5
[17:25:03] <cradek> wonder if this will be important
[17:25:25] <cradek> LaciN: you might want to consider updating to a more modern OS install. It looks like you will have a lot of work to do otherwise.
[17:25:27] <jepler> that is important if you wish to improve the translation of emc
[17:28:15] <LaciN> we've already updated xgettext, and found the DEP=... line
[17:29:09] <LaciN> but it doesn't really tell us anything
[17:30:28] <LaciN> how do we change from gcc-3.0 to gcc-3.4
[17:30:42] <LaciN> we've downloaded it already
[17:30:49] <jepler> emc uses the version of gcc that you used to compile rtai
[17:31:05] <jepler> rtai probably uses the version of gcc you used to compile the kernel
[17:31:46] <LaciN> so the solution is to compile the rtai again?
[17:31:47] <jepler> you could try modifying DEP = to use "> $(3).tmp" instead of "-o $(3).tmp" since your compiler seems to ignore -o and write to standard output.
[17:51:13] <LaciN> That works this way. For a while... then we recive the following msg: http://pastebin.ca/802806
[17:51:40] <LaciN> we tried the apt get install for this lstdc++
[17:52:10] <alex_joni> you're missing libstdc++
[17:52:16] <LaciN> but we already have the version libstdc++6
[17:53:51] <alex_joni> then probably it's noth in the LD path or something
[17:54:31] <alex_joni> I think it's called LDPATH, and you can set it from the command line ..
[17:54:44] <alex_joni> try echo $LDPATH
[17:57:19] <jepler> does g++ work at all? Does the following succeed?
[17:57:19] <jepler> touch x.cc; g++ -shared -o x.so x.cc
[17:59:10] <LaciN> it didn't work
[17:59:25] <LaciN> couldn't find lstdc++
[18:00:01] <jepler> OK, then your C++ compiler's installation is broken, and you need to fix it.
[18:00:05] <jepler> * jepler leaves
[18:00:08] <LaciN> we'll try to link it, do you think this is the good solution?
[18:03:24] <alex_joni> LaciN: a "good" solution would be to start from a decent system, with only one gcc installed
[18:03:36] <alex_joni> otherwise you get into all sorts of problems like this one..
[18:07:19] <LaciN> should i remove the older versions of gcc?
[18:10:58] <LaciN> echo $LDPATH didn't show anything
[18:16:16] <alex_joni> maybe you can set LDPATH before the compile
[18:16:34] <alex_joni> (it needs to point to the dir where libstdc++ is)
[18:17:15] <alex_joni> (however, this is still just a hack.. you should properly fix it..)
[18:17:50] <alex_joni> apt-get remove all gcc's you don't need, apt-get install only the one you need (the one you compiled the kernel and rtai with)
[18:19:50] <alex_joni> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=2&chap=5
[18:21:42] <LaciN> ok. thx for the help. i think that i will fix the whole system but only on monday. i have to compile the kernel and rtai again. thanks again. have a nice weekend!
[18:22:01] <alex_joni> same to you
[19:36:00] <alex_joni2> dang.. connection died
[19:36:05] <alex_joni2> logger_emc: bookmark
[19:36:05] <alex_joni2> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2007-11-30.txt
[19:46:34] <jepler> alex_joni2: you didn't miss much
[19:54:42] <alex_joni2> jepler: I see that.. was wondering what happened with my regular connection
[19:54:47] <alex_joni2> all links to it are down
[19:56:03] <jlmjvm> jepler:did you get my message yesterday about the s.poll working
[19:58:24] <jepler> jlmjvm: no I didn't see it -- good.
[19:59:44] <jlmjvm> had to make 2 buttons,1 to read z,1 set tlo
[20:01:35] <jlmjvm> http://pastebin.ca/802964
[20:02:41] <jepler> I don't understand why you had to make two buttons.
[20:02:57] <jlmjvm> kinda crude,but its working
[20:03:22] <jlmjvm> i didnt know how to link them together
[20:03:46] <jepler> def f():
[20:03:51] <jepler> do_first_thing()
[20:03:54] <jepler> do_second_thing()
[20:04:10] <jlmjvm> lemmee try that
[20:06:02] <jepler> that defines a function with two statements in it.
[20:06:42] <jepler> In a function, the statements are simply executed one after another in top-down order (unless modified by 'flow control' statements like if, return, and so on)
[20:07:13] <cradek> jlmjvm: did you read the python tutorial? I never made it all the way through, but it was very helpful to do the beginning of it
[20:07:39] <jlmjvm> hello world
[20:07:45] <cradek> http://docs.python.org/tut/tut.html
[20:07:50] <cradek> yes exactly!
[20:08:03] <jlmjvm> been looking at a couple actually
[20:08:33] <jlmjvm> gf thinks ive lost my mind
[20:10:35] <jlmjvm> jepler:that works even better
[20:11:39] <jlmjvm> those pesky indentations,lol
[20:16:28] <jlmjvm> i noticed something today,i changed my keyboard to ctrl-F9 and ctrl-F10 for the spindle,now F10 opens the file menu
[20:16:52] <jlmjvm> i cant find anything binding F10 to that
[20:17:47] <jepler> that's a standard binding in Tk
[20:18:14] <jepler> (it's actually a standard binding on Motif and Windows, inherited by Tk)
[20:18:30] <jlmjvm> ahh,thats why
[20:19:21] <jlmjvm> i set the keys like that so you have to hit 2 keys to cause motion
[20:19:52] <jlmjvm> everything was great except for that 1 mystery
[20:20:38] <jlmjvm> does the same thing as alt-f
[20:23:36] <jlmjvm> http://pastebin.ca/802986
[20:25:15] <jlmjvm> thats the dialog box my friend is working on
[20:26:48] <jlmjvm> having a problem getting it to actually write
[20:28:36] <jepler> the tutorial talks about writing files. http://docs.python.org/tut/node9.html#SECTION009200000000000000000
[20:36:43] <LawrenceG> cradek: hey Chris.... tort.ngc is great for testing new drives on the bench... lots of velocities, direction changes... I added a line to make it end where it started so one can check for lost steps
[20:36:57] <cradek> good idea!
[20:38:45] <LawrenceG> it even found one motor that must have something like shorted turn.... the motor gets significantly hotter than the other 2 even if I swap it to other drive axis.
[20:40:06] <LawrenceG> the dog doesnt like all the siren sounds coming from the motors as they ramp up and down!
[20:56:57] <jlmjvm> http://pastebin.ca/803037
[20:57:32] <jlmjvm> thats the error im getting running in terminal
[21:13:51] <jepler> I guess the mistake is probably not obvious to you
[21:14:01] <jepler> your file 'tt' is open for reading, not for writing
[21:14:38] <jepler> the second, optional argument to open() should be 'w' to open a file for writing. You will open the file twice: once to read it, then once to write the new contents.
[21:20:18] <jlmjvm> thanks jepler,was away for a min,will try
[21:25:38] <alex_joni> good night all
[21:45:18] <JymmmEMC> I want to wire up a SSR with a DPTT toggle switch (ON/OFF/AUTO), but should I wire it on the control side, or the output side?
[21:58:22] <dmess> hi all
[21:58:45] <JymmmEMC> howdy
[22:03:02] <toastydeath> fff
[22:03:15] <fenn> baa
[22:27:26] <jlmjvm> logger_emc:can i get a bookmark,had to do an unexpected reboot
[22:27:26] <jlmjvm> I'm logging. I don't understand 'can i get a bookmark,had to do an unexpected reboot', jlmjvm. Try /msg logger_emc help
[22:28:54] <jepler> jlmjvm: bookmark
[22:29:33] <jlmjvm> logger_emc:bookmark
[22:29:33] <jlmjvm> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2007-11-30.txt