#emc | Logs for 2007-11-21

[01:19:46] <Unit41> LINUX G
[01:27:05] <Ziegler> G Unit
[01:30:19] <Unit41> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331
[01:32:16] <Ziegler> wtf?
[01:33:13] <Unit41> where is my rt dir ?
[01:33:19] <Unit41> checking for RT dir... configure: error: RT not found. Specify:
[01:33:19] <Unit41> --with-realtime=<path>
[01:33:39] <cradek> if it's in the standard location it will be detected
[01:33:43] <cradek> otherwise, it's where you put it
[01:33:51] <Unit41> im not using ubuntu
[01:33:54] <Unit41> its suse
[01:33:59] <Unit41> with RT kernel
[01:34:03] <cradek> then the second part of my answer applies...
[01:34:11] <cradek> where did you install rtai?
[01:48:29] <Unit41> checking for Linux source tree... invalid
[01:48:29] <Unit41> configure: error: /usr/src/linux is not configured -- --with-linux-dir sets linux-dir
[01:48:36] <Unit41> dang, time to rpm hunt
[01:48:53] <cradek> how did you build rtai without kernel source?
[01:59:23] <Ziegler> Ive never seen so much bullshit played off as intelligence I had in skipping though that video
[02:10:13] <Unit41> pfff
[02:10:19] <Unit41> they just used the facts
[02:10:32] <Unit41> its a great movie
[02:11:13] <Unit41> not for the weak minded and poor though
[02:13:49] <Ziegler> guess that means you did all the research
[02:15:33] <Ziegler> dont hear me wrong.. I can buy into alot of that... but some of it is grasping at straws
[03:01:37] <toastydeath> you know what i've noticed about straws
[03:01:40] <toastydeath> is that they're always around
[03:01:43] <toastydeath> until you really need one
[03:46:09] <user__> user__ is now known as SkinnypuppY34
[10:33:44] <ZaaN> hi
[10:34:53] <ZaaN> i am looking for more information about the EMCTask and his internal architecture. Can you help me ?
[10:38:05] <ZaaN> huu ?
[10:38:19] <ZaaN> * ZaaN wait on answer
[12:03:55] <ZaaN> is this channel alive ?
[13:07:54] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[13:08:12] <jlmjvm> cradek:good morning
[13:08:16] <cradek> hi
[13:09:08] <jlmjvm> isnt your boss still a factory machine,no control changes yet?
[13:09:48] <jlmjvm> or do you have emc on it
[13:16:07] <cradek> it's still nearly factory
[13:16:18] <jlmjvm> k
[13:16:37] <jepler> ZaaN: the source code is the primary reference. there are other notes in http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.2/html/code_Code_Notes.html but they are not rigorously kept up-to-date.
[13:17:21] <jlmjvm> i had forgotten that they program differently from a modern g code machine
[13:18:23] <cradek> yeah everything is a little different.
[13:19:43] <cradek> bbl
[13:20:15] <jlmjvm> later
[13:21:59] <jlmjvm> jepler:python is the language that you need to know to make changes or add to usr/bin/axis,correct?
[13:22:56] <jepler> jlmjvm: the file /usr/bin/axis is written in python
[13:23:03] <jepler> axis relies on other code written in C++ and tcl
[13:24:26] <jlmjvm> im gonna try to find someone local to help me with the tool offset touchoff button,what do they need to know,C++ and tcl?
[13:25:45] <jepler> I guess I don't know enough about what you want touch off to do to be sure
[13:26:06] <jepler> if it is changing something about how the GUI displays items, then you would need python and tcl knowledge
[13:26:15] <jepler> if it's changing something about how EMC works, then you would need C and C++ knowledge as well
[13:26:24] <jlmjvm> all it needs to do is put the value in the tool.tbl
[13:26:50] <jepler> writing files can be done in python, and you can look at existing code in axis to see how to request that emc re-read the tool table.
[13:27:01] <jlmjvm> then a regular cam system can output a correct program
[13:27:13] <jepler> tcl knowledge is often also needed when you modify the appearance of an axis window or dialog
[13:28:23] <jlmjvm> i can make it put the value in the var file,but not the tool.tbl yet
[13:30:00] <jlmjvm> is tcl a common linux language that a local linux guy should know,or is it emc specific?
[13:30:14] <jepler> tcl is a very old language
[13:30:20] <jepler> it is not an emc creation
[13:30:24] <jlmjvm> k
[13:30:46] <jepler> if the only part left in your problem is "read tool.tbl; modify one line; write it again" then the task can be done all in python
[13:31:46] <jlmjvm> that appears to be all thats needed
[13:34:35] <jlmjvm> then instead or using a var# it would use the tool.tbl,a regular cam system would output the correct code,and the tool diameters would show up in the gui when running
[13:37:51] <jlmjvm> i really dont remember any machine tool control that i have used over the last 24 years that didnt have a tool touch off
[13:40:16] <jlmjvm> dont misunderstand me,i think axis is the hottest machine tool gui ive ever seen,when i saw the first screen shot of it last year i made up my mind to learn this package
[13:41:06] <jlmjvm> but 1 very important and basic function is missing
[13:41:18] <jepler> that's the principle of open source: you don't have to depend on one individual or company to add every required feature.
[13:41:52] <jepler> if you complete this feature, I'd be grateful if you sent the changes to me so that it can be in a future release of emc
[13:42:17] <jlmjvm> if i knew more about python we would already have it
[13:42:33] <jlmjvm> will be more than glad to
[13:43:54] <jlmjvm> i dont wanna violate any ethics of the room but im looking for someone to contract this to
[13:44:11] <jlmjvm> its that important to me
[13:45:07] <skunkworks685> remember this guy? http://www.stensat.org/projects/halloween_2007/inv_tripod/inv_tripod.htm
[13:45:11] <jepler> that's not an ethical violation or a violation of the gpl.
[13:45:20] <jlmjvm> k,cool
[13:45:47] <jepler> the problems come when you say, or that person says: I will give or sell you the binary program, but not the source code you need to make further improvements
[13:46:50] <jlmjvm> naw,it will have to released to all
[13:47:13] <jlmjvm> you interested?
[13:47:56] <jepler> in general terms, yes.
[13:48:13] <jepler> I'd have to see the actual source code changes before I'd say "yes, this code is suitable for adding to emc"
[13:48:54] <jlmjvm> obviously you would be the perfect candidate
[13:51:04] <jlmjvm> gotta run,think it over,im for real about this
[13:51:15] <jepler> see you
[13:51:36] <jlmjvm> thanks,see ya
[13:52:37] <skunkworks685> there are a video on the sit also - I am thinking lawn mower... ;)
[13:53:06] <skunkworks685> boy - lets try that again
[13:53:22] <skunkworks685> there is a video on the site also.
[13:56:22] <alex_joni> skunkworks685: that's the greatest thing so far this month
[13:56:29] <alex_joni> absolutely crazy stuff, love it :D
[14:06:30] <skunkworks685> I think this should also be linked from the wiki. (should I ask?)
[14:08:43] <alex_joni> skunkworks685: mayeb added instead of linked
[14:08:56] <alex_joni> yeah, sure.. go ahead
[14:15:01] <skunkworks685> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Case_Studies
[14:15:15] <skunkworks685> I will nudge him and see if he will add a page on the wiki.
[14:18:16] <skunkworks685> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=369265#post369265
[14:38:21] <cradek> there is an nml message, maybe currently disabled or broken, that will change/write a tool table entry. That should be revived to do tool touchoff correctly.
[14:39:52] <cradek> I would also like to see that in emc somehow
[14:40:14] <cradek> I think to do it, you'd have to use negative tool offsets (or something - I haven't thought it through)
[15:02:49] <skunkworks685> logger_emc: bookmark
[15:02:50] <skunkworks685> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2007-11-21.txt
[15:03:42] <jepler> a complete solution would also have to include lathe tool entries (orientation, X and Z offset)
[15:04:38] <cradek> at least x/z
[15:04:50] <cradek> (for touch off)
[15:05:00] <cradek> but yeah editing them all in the gui would be best
[15:05:08] <alex_joni> why do we want such special cases for TLO ?
[15:05:24] <alex_joni> on a PUMA robot you have a XYZ tool offset
[15:05:32] <alex_joni> relative to the latest joint
[15:05:42] <alex_joni> and some ABC tool orientation
[15:06:29] <cradek> alex_joni: probably only because we're facing a tool table with 10+ numbers per tool, almost all of them being zero
[15:07:15] <cradek> I'd also like it to be more general
[15:07:19] <xemet> hello
[15:07:20] <cradek> at least xyzuvw
[15:07:48] <cradek> even a knee mill would be able to use W tool offsets
[15:08:08] <xemet> a frien of mine reported to me a bug, but I had no time to test it yet, it is in the 2.2.1 version (but was the same in the previous versions)
[15:08:42] <xemet> when you load a g code, axis can calculate the working time
[15:09:17] <xemet> but this is always wrong, at least in the mm version (I don't know if it is worng also in the inch version)
[15:09:48] <xemet> it is always about 400 times less than the real working time
[15:10:15] <cradek> 25.4^2 = 645
[15:10:49] <xemet> do you know the way it is calculated?
[15:11:05] <cradek> in sim/axis_mm it looks pretty reasonable (38 seconds for the AXIS splash screen)
[15:12:18] <xemet> ok, now I will try on my computer...
[15:12:30] <cradek> although it actually took 55 seconds to run
[15:12:56] <cradek> strange. the same file in sim/axis (inch) says 45 seconds
[15:13:09] <cradek> oh of course, the speeds are different
[15:13:14] <xemet> there is something strange...
[15:13:55] <xemet> I would like to try with something simple
[15:16:30] <jepler> the time estimate does not correctly account for inverse time feed moves or spindle-synchronized moves -- it will probably give wildly wrong answers there
[15:16:44] <jepler> it does not account for ABC or UVW movements
[15:17:01] <jepler> it does not account for acceleration
[15:17:31] <jepler> it uses a very simple and wrong guess for top speed available: the maximum jog slider value
[15:19:28] <xemet> so,
[15:19:35] <xemet> let's try something really simple
[15:19:38] <jepler> I think that mostly explains the difference between sim/axis and sim/axis_mm: the jog slider goes up to 3200mm/min, vs 72in/min
[15:19:59] <cradek> they both take about 55 seconds to run so the machine settings must be similar
[15:21:20] <xemet> http://www.pastebin.ca/792581
[15:21:30] <xemet> this will make a sqaure
[15:21:34] <xemet> square
[15:21:44] <xemet> I've set the side to 100
[15:21:49] <xemet> 100 mm
[15:21:56] <xemet> and the feedrate to 100 mm/min
[15:22:16] <xemet> so the working time should be about 4 min
[15:22:19] <xemet> right?
[15:22:27] <cradek> your file does not contain G20 or G21
[15:22:32] <xemet> so whay axis tell me working time is 9 secs
[15:23:18] <xemet> is it necessary to specify G20 or G21
[15:23:33] <xemet> the machine is set in mm, so it take all measures in mm
[15:24:14] <xemet> but now I try to set G21 and see if something changes
[15:24:45] <cradek> it doesn't help when I try it
[15:25:21] <xemet> nothing changed
[15:25:32] <xemet> it shows 9 secs
[15:25:47] <cradek> when I try 1" square with g20, I get 4 seconds when it should be 4 minutes
[15:26:03] <xemet> ok, so there is something strange...
[15:26:37] <cradek> yes and it's not just mm
[15:27:36] <xemet> the working distance is correct
[15:27:56] <xemet> so it is in the feedrate that something goes wrong
[15:31:59] <xemet> do you know the way it is calculated?
[15:32:57] <xemet> simply Time = Space/feedrate ?
[15:33:07] <xemet> or something more complex?
[15:45:40] <xemet> are you there?
[15:47:21] <alex_joni> yes xemet, we are here :)
[15:47:29] <alex_joni> jepler and cradek are working on it
[15:49:08] <jepler> I found something that made the time calculation ignore the given feed rate and use a predefined value that didn't mean anything
[15:50:32] <jepler> it looks like there is an additional problem for metric programs, the feed rate is still taken as inches per minute
[15:55:19] <xemet> ok, so you found that there is a problem, that's a good thing, it is not a problem of my system :), I hope you can solve it in the next release
[15:56:06] <jepler> yes, I hope so too
[15:56:17] <cradek> thanks xemet
[17:47:42] <SWPadnos___> SWPadnos___ is now known as SWPadnos
[17:50:51] <acemi_> acemi_ is now known as acemi
[18:45:48] <SWPadnos___> SWPadnos___ is now known as SWPadnos
[20:15:08] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos is now known as the artist formerly known as SWPadnos
[20:32:03] <skunkworks439> JymmmEMC: how is it going?
[20:32:12] <skunkworks439> ready for turkey day?
[20:33:11] <JymmmEMC> Yep, the bird is in it's hot tub, getting ready for it's salt bath!
[20:33:43] <cradek> yargh
[20:33:55] <cradek> you always talk about your birds and I wondered what you were doing to them now
[20:34:03] <JymmmEMC> lol
[20:34:19] <JymmmEMC> they are cannibals
[20:34:21] <skunkworks439> oh - I don't know if I could do that anymore. I am sure the wife wouldn't be able to handle it.
[20:34:33] <skunkworks439> Don't name the turkeys..
[20:34:36] <cradek> but I forgot, some birds are pets, some are food
[20:35:10] <JymmmEMC> Actually, my gf is pretty touchy about that, or any animal for that matter.
[20:35:44] <JymmmEMC> Though I will admit, if I had to make my own hamburger, I might turn vegan.
[20:36:47] <skunkworks439> I picked up some peanut sauce - have not used it for anything yet though.
[20:37:13] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks: on rice, over veggies, or as a dipping sauce for deep fried tofu
[20:37:28] <cradek> yum, fried tofu
[20:37:40] <jepler> mmmmmm
[20:37:59] <cradek> no kinds of tofu are pets, so it's safe
[20:38:18] <skunkworks439> heh
[20:38:33] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks we buy the commercial peanut suace mix
[20:38:54] <skunkworks439> We got it from the local food coop
[20:39:03] <JymmmEMC> know the brand?
[20:39:10] <skunkworks439> No - not at the moment
[20:39:41] <JymmmEMC> Taste of Thai ?
[20:39:43] <cradek> my peanut sauce for veggies or noodles: equal parts soy sauce, sugar, lemon juice. add a glob of peanut butter.
[20:40:01] <JymmmEMC> cradek: no coconut milk?
[20:40:12] <cradek> mmm coconut milk
[20:40:19] <cradek> sure what the heck
[20:41:56] <JymmmEMC> Ok, we buy the tub (3rd item down)... but same as 2nd item... http://www.andreprost.com/thai_peanut_items.htm
[20:42:20] <JymmmEMC> also GREAT on chicken satay
[20:42:40] <cradek> wow, $16
[20:42:47] <JymmmEMC> It's WELL worth it!
[20:42:57] <JymmmEMC> lasts us a year
[20:43:22] <JymmmEMC> then we just buy cans of coconut milk and can make it as dtring ot light as we want
[20:43:30] <JymmmEMC> strong
[20:43:54] <skunkworks439> what - you don't milk the coconuts?
[20:43:56] <JymmmEMC> you can find it locally in restraunt supply house
[20:44:08] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks you first ;)
[20:44:20] <cradek> sometimes I get the little cans of curry paste to mix with a can of coconut milk - very easy and good
[20:44:41] <cradek> http://www.templeofthai.com/food/curry_paste/red-2110031108.php
[20:44:43] <cradek> like this
[20:44:51] <skunkworks439> you put the lime in the coconut and you......
[20:44:59] <cradek> (check these things carefully for stealth fish if you're vegetarian)
[20:46:26] <Ziegler> skunkworks heh
[20:46:49] <JymmmEMC> You put the lime in the Coke you nut, and drink them both together...
[20:48:01] <skunkworks439> heh - I was winging it..
[20:48:31] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks no, you were correct for the original song, mine was from the "Coca-Cola with Lime" commercial
[20:48:40] <skunkworks439> ah - ok
[20:51:10] <skunkworks439> It was funny - we where driving down to see the singer - 'feist'. We where listening to her cd's and actually reading the lyrics. Needless to say - it changed the meaning of a few of the songs..
[20:52:27] <cradek> "I'm glad I'm a man and so is Lola"?
[20:53:23] <JymmmEMC> http://www.centralcomputers.com/corp/pages/ASUSeeePC.html
[20:53:44] <jepler> cradek: you mean, lola is also glad that you are a man?
[20:53:53] <jepler> you should be precise in your use of langauge; to do otherwise invites misinterpretation.
[20:54:02] <cradek> ha
[20:55:07] <JymmmEMC> You guys are at least familure with "dating sites" when they ask what you're looking for? Like "I am a man, looking for a woman"?
[20:55:26] <JymmmEMC> usually abbr: M4W ???
[20:55:38] <jepler> no?
[20:56:16] <cradek> JymmmEMC: interesting except for 800x480
[20:56:18] <JymmmEMC> Well... they do! M4W, W4M, M4M, W4W... with me?
[20:56:53] <jepler> 480 is not very many rows of pixels
[20:57:13] <JymmmEMC> No, but it might be nice for grandma
[20:57:14] <jepler> JymmmEMC: OK, I believe you
[20:57:35] <JymmmEMC> Ok, now toss in the whole TS/TV/TG crowd....
[20:58:25] <skunkworks439> she's so light - she so light on her feet - actually was :: And shed some light - Shed some light on me please
[20:58:44] <JymmmEMC> M2F4M, M2F4F, F2M4M, F2M4F...
[20:59:13] <JymmmEMC> It's some funny stuff
[20:59:28] <skunkworks439> stupid question - I thought the puma sim and others where in the 2.2.1 live cd
[20:59:45] <jepler> skunkworks439: yes, should be (though one of puma or scara was still broken in 2.2.1)
[20:59:52] <skunkworks439> hmm
[21:02:33] <skunkworks439> heh
[21:03:14] <skunkworks439> I thought I downloaded the latest live cd yesterday.. it has 2.1.6 on it
[21:04:16] <skunkworks439> ok - I am sure I did. It is the only iso in the desktop.
[21:04:23] <skunkworks439> dated yesterday
[21:04:46] <jepler> huh that's strange
[21:06:35] <jepler> -rw-r--r-- 1 emcboard pg167418 700897280 Jun 7 23:46 emc2-ubuntu6.06-desktop-i386.iso
[21:06:40] <jepler> -rwxrwxr-x 1 emcboard pg167418 705298432 Nov 15 04:34 emc2.2.1-ubuntu6.06-desktop-i386.iso
[21:06:45] <jepler> looks like it's uploaded but with a different file name
[21:07:46] <skunkworks439> the one I downloaded from the link on the left of linuxcnc.org was emc2-ubuntu6.06-desktop-i386.iso
[21:08:23] <skunkworks439> 700,897,280
[21:08:32] <skunkworks439> damn :)
[21:09:29] <jepler> I wonder how many others have had the same experience :(
[21:09:42] <jepler> I've asked alex_joni to look into it
[21:09:57] <jepler> for now you can download from the same URL with .2.1 added
[21:10:05] <skunkworks439> ok - thanks
[21:16:57] <skunkworks439> That is downloading.
[21:41:19] <skunkworks439> 200KB/s isn't bad\
[21:41:32] <skunkworks439> takes about an hour to download.
[21:51:26] <skunkworks439> The link on this page is correct. http://www.linuxcnc.org/content/view/21/4/lang,en/
[22:02:34] <LawrenceG> The link in the middle of the page under installing EMC2 looks ok, but under the left hand news column it is the wrong link
[22:05:45] <skunkworks439> Yes :)
[22:06:42] <LawrenceG> even better... "EU mirror" in news section seems to get one to the right version
[22:08:51] <skunkworks439> LawrenceG: how is the current drive going?
[22:09:12] <skunkworks439> current as in Amperes
[22:10:23] <LawrenceG> current project is putting a stepper system together with some parker oem750 drives... "current drive is still in progress" The shop is getting quite cold... I am going to have to get a heater!
[22:13:41] <LawrenceG> I am aiming for something with 0-12amp output for 12-24 volt servos but the logic part can be used with different power drivers... I also have a 90vdc motor I would like to try driving as a servo... line powered stuff lets the smoke out a little faster!
[22:14:12] <LawrenceG> 3 legged fet fuses
[22:14:25] <skunkworks439> heh
[22:16:25] <LawrenceG> any interesting projects on your end?
[22:17:15] <skunkworks439> new front and back doors on the house - footing for the garage start friday.. So no.
[22:17:39] <skunkworks439> I have stalled on the cnc side for the last few monts
[22:17:41] <skunkworks439> months
[22:20:22] <LawrenceG> I am re-automating my shoptask to take advantage of the lathe spindle encoder I added... real parallel port chargepump type watch dog, coolant and spindle control from the computer and a few other goodies that will make using the lathe/mill a little nicer
[22:22:04] <skunkworks439> Nice
[22:22:31] <LawrenceG> I also have a rotary table which would benefit from adding a stepper drive... would like to make some wooden/plastic/metal clocks
[22:23:21] <skunkworks439> sounds like a plan.
[22:23:33] <skunkworks439> did you see this from earlier?
[22:23:34] <skunkworks439> http://www.stensat.org/projects/halloween_2007/inv_tripod/inv_tripod.htm
[22:24:47] <LawrenceG> yes... very cool.... the idea of taking out young hooligans with a computer controller flying wrench has a certain appeal :}
[22:26:10] <LawrenceG> some servo powered air motors would be great for some fast rapids... maybe a new use for some cheap die grinders with bang bang controls
[22:28:25] <LawrenceG> humbug... stock market is not doing well this week
[22:29:35] <skunkworks439> dont' watch it.. ;)
[22:30:16] <skunkworks439> bb;
[22:30:18] <skunkworks439> bbl
[22:30:24] <LawrenceG> cul
[23:46:58] <jlmjvm> SWPadnos:which pci express video card did you say worked with emc,was it the nvidia 7300?
[23:58:00] <eric_U> anyone know what this statement means? "The BOSS 6 machine has Haas rotary table as a 4th axis. I use M51 to turn control over to the Haas, then the Haas signals the BPT when it's done."
[23:58:34] <eric_U> I take it that means that Haas is running a program and the BP doesn't do anything?