#emc | Logs for 2007-09-03

[00:01:30] <Skullworks-PGAB> you have the servo motors yet?
[00:01:38] <SWPadnos> yep. had those for years
[00:02:13] <SWPadnos> I don't think these brackets are for NEMA42 motors, but I can make an adapter plate if necessary
[00:02:26] <SWPadnos> (those are flat, and are easy to machine with a manual mill ;) )
[00:03:41] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Who is this Man-U-ell you speak of?
[00:03:54] <SWPadnos> my Mexical friend
[00:04:04] <SWPadnos> eh - whatever
[00:04:09] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Ah, Si Senior
[00:05:19] <Skullworks-PGAB> I picked up a pair of treadmill motors from surplus city - I was really surprised how responsive they were with a 1.5V AA battery considering they are rated for 90V cont 130V intermitant and about 6000rpm peak
[00:05:32] <SWPadnos> it's the current that matters
[00:05:53] <JymmmEMC> 1.5V ?!
[00:06:02] <Skullworks-PGAB> OK - so I cheated 1.5V 2000Ma
[00:06:08] <SWPadnos> the motor coil is probably 1-2 ohms, so a 1.5V battery would try to put 0.75 to 1 A through it
[00:06:15] <JymmmEMC> ah
[00:06:22] <Skullworks-PGAB> super batts for digital cameras
[00:06:23] <SWPadnos> (not that an AA battery can supply that amount of current)
[00:06:37] <Skullworks-PGAB> they can - but not for too long
[00:06:37] <JymmmEMC> I didn't think you could even get the magnetic flux going that low =)
[00:06:49] <SWPadnos> though it only needs the current for a little while, to accelerate the motor
[00:06:52] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Actually, they can.
[00:07:05] <SWPadnos> not for long, without getting hot
[00:07:16] <Skullworks-PGAB> right
[00:07:36] <Skullworks-PGAB> kinda like the batts the RC car people use
[00:07:51] <JymmmEMC> AA are rated at 2850 mAh
[00:08:10] <JymmmEMC> D are rated at 20500 mAh
[00:08:27] <SWPadnos> newer ones maybe. I'm speaking of alkaline batteries
[00:08:34] <JymmmEMC> so am I
[00:08:36] <SWPadnos> alkaline AA are ~1800-2000 mAh
[00:08:50] <JymmmEMC> http://data.energizer.com/
[00:09:01] <JymmmEMC> then select Energizer Alkaline
[00:09:02] <SWPadnos> (they used to be anyway - could have been advances since I last bothered looking)
[00:09:06] <JymmmEMC> for product group
[00:09:21] <Skullworks-PGAB> these are high output lithium Ion
[00:09:52] <SWPadnos> sinc-manganese dioxide, according to the datasheet
[00:09:55] <SWPadnos> zinc
[00:09:54] <Skullworks-PGAB> they won't hold a chrage more than 3 weeks without recharging
[00:10:15] <SWPadnos> 2850 mAh at 25mA discharge rate
[00:10:22] <JymmmEMC> Huge differnce between D and C
[00:10:24] <SWPadnos> at 500mA, it's under 1500
[00:10:49] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Hey, you weren't suppose to read the WHOLE datasheet ;)
[00:10:58] <SWPadnos> yes I am - that's my job ;)
[00:11:10] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Eh, you're fired!
[00:11:23] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Go become the fry cook you've always wanted to be!
[00:11:26] <SWPadnos> yer not the boss o me - nyah nyah
[00:11:37] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I'll tell your wife on you!
[00:11:44] <SWPadnos> ok
[00:12:09] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: You know... that rug that somehow mysteriously got a stain on it
[00:12:20] <Skullworks-PGAB> yeah but zinc-manganese dioxide - thats OLD school - I was taking those apart to get zinc strip to make some free H2 (from HCl)
[00:12:37] <Skullworks-PGAB> back in the early 70's
[00:12:41] <SWPadnos> heh
[00:13:11] <SWPadnos> remember all those ads for energizer and duracell alkaline batteries? how they're so much better than X, Y or Z
[00:13:24] <SWPadnos> all alkaline batteries are within 3% of each other
[00:13:33] <Skullworks-PGAB> yep
[00:14:04] <Skullworks-PGAB> best buy the cheapest that has a fresh mfg date
[00:14:06] <JymmmEMC> Except, Energizer has a lifetime guarntee that ANY of theri battereis won't leak or they'll repair/replace the device
[00:14:13] <SWPadnos> I think consumer reports did a test, and found that some generic-label battery actually had marginally better performance than the big brands
[00:14:29] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, well, that's a good thing (but not part of battery performance :) )
[00:14:44] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: $1200 Camera and you begin to care
[00:14:58] <SWPadnos> oh sure - liability and warranty issues are important
[00:15:06] <SWPadnos> but have nothing to do with performance
[00:15:10] <Skullworks-PGAB> true - funny thing was each battery performed differently based on discharge load vrs time
[00:15:21] <SWPadnos> ther are related to overall value though
[00:15:47] <SWPadnos> oh sure - you have to match the battery technology to the type of load
[00:15:56] <SWPadnos> for best performance anyway
[00:16:00] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: You get a bill for $75 from Nikon and see how much you care about Performance for the $0.99 pk of battereis
[00:16:07] <Skullworks-PGAB> so technically one could be best for flash - another better for walkmans...
[00:16:12] <SWPadnos> I charge Nikon, buddy
[00:16:43] <JymmmEMC> I recharge my 2500MAh AA batteries =)
[00:17:05] <JymmmEMC> Tha'ts Million, not milli =)
[00:17:10] <JymmmEMC> (ok, typo)
[00:17:43] <SWPadnos> all you need is a billion AAs in a case
[00:18:00] <JymmmEMC> they are nice batteries though... the 2500mAh Energizer rechargables.
[00:19:57] <Skullworks-PGAB> back to motors - those 90V treadmill motors turned faster with the AA batt than my 37V Ametek servos - but the 90v had some noticeable cogging where the ametek was perfectly smooth.
[00:20:26] <SWPadnos> it's probably different forward vs reverse as well
[00:20:31] <SWPadnos> may not be, but probably is
[00:20:41] <Skullworks-PGAB> not that I could tell
[00:20:45] <SWPadnos> ok, that's good
[00:21:08] <SWPadnos> you can tell cogging by just shorting the leads and trying to turn the motor quickly
[00:21:19] <SWPadnos> it's a 0V battery :)
[00:22:07] <Skullworks-PGAB> the Ametek has provision to be a 4 brush motor - although the one I was testing had only 2 brushes & holders installed @ 90 degrees
[00:22:54] <Skullworks-PGAB> the treadmill motors are 2 brushes @ 180 deg
[00:24:02] <Skullworks-PGAB> not sure if it means anything but the ameteks also had 4 PM where as the treadmill motor had just the 2
[00:25:21] <SWPadnos> PM?
[00:26:07] <Skullworks-PGAB> Perm magnets
[00:26:18] <SWPadnos> ah
[00:27:16] <Skullworks-PGAB> what makes the ameteks so smooth is the 60 deg skew in the armature
[00:27:52] <SWPadnos> "smoothness" is what differentiates a servo motor from a normal DC brush motor (for the most part)
[00:28:30] <skunkworks> if you gear them down.. The cogging will be less.. lawenceg has had good luck with cheap motors for servos. using windshield wiper motors.
[00:28:31] <SWPadnos> I know he names, but not the details, of the methods they use to make good servo motors (ie, I won't know what I'm talking about if I keep talking much longer :) )
[00:28:38] <SWPadnos> s/he/the/
[00:28:59] <Skullworks-PGAB> Dan Mauch @ Camtronics has been selling the Ameteks for years for BP conversions
[00:29:28] <SWPadnos> the little Ametek I got from surplus center would have a very hard time running a BP, unless it was turning the spindle speed knob
[00:29:31] <Skullworks-PGAB> but I think he is selling a 4 brush version
[00:30:51] <Skullworks-PGAB> I may be wrong but I believe the 4 brush can take 2x the Current.
[00:32:47] <Skullworks-PGAB> * Skullworks-PGAB remembers when 100IPM on a BridgePort CNC was "Rapid". ( It also loaded programs from paper tapes....)
[00:58:36] <toast_> apparently the new 6000 ipm machines don't even have windows and feature advanced door interlocks
[00:58:49] <toast_> just because they move so fast
[00:59:20] <SWPadnos> 8 feet per second is a bit fast to get away from :)
[00:59:38] <toast_> a wee bit difficult, yes.
[01:00:13] <SWPadnos> that 3/4 second average reaction time would let the machine smash through me from head to toe ...
[01:00:36] <toast_> apparently with a 40k spindle in aluminum
[01:00:41] <toast_> a 1" carbide tool
[01:00:47] <toast_> exhibits almost zero tool wear
[01:00:58] <toast_> if you feed it properly, that is
[01:00:59] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Not to worry, with your hollow legs you got a good 10 mintues before it'll be over
[01:01:00] <SWPadnos> I really like the datron Dynamocs ones (with videos!)
[01:01:04] <toast_> .003 to .005 per tooth
[01:01:05] <SWPadnos> Dynamics
[01:01:41] <SWPadnos> when we were at NIST 3 Fests ago, they were doing some experiments on tool wear with a 30 or 50 HP lathe
[01:01:54] <toast_> for what
[01:02:03] <SWPadnos> they found that when the tool starts to screech, turn it up a little more, instead of turning it down :)
[01:02:11] <toast_> yar
[01:02:39] <SWPadnos> they were machining bullet shapes out of cylindrical stock in <1 minute, for like 4 or 5 inch diameter stock
[01:02:57] <SWPadnos> and I'm pretty sure it was steel they were turning
[01:02:57] <toast_> sounds like a roll lathe
[01:03:09] <SWPadnos> ?
[01:03:21] <toast_> roll lathes are for roughing out the basic forms for rolling mills
[01:03:38] <SWPadnos> no, this was turning final shapes
[01:03:42] <toast_> 5-6" depth of cut
[01:03:49] <toast_> .250-.5 feed per rev
[01:04:01] <toast_> oh
[01:04:03] <toast_> snap
[01:04:09] <SWPadnos> it was a standard big lathe, with some extra stuff
[01:04:21] <SWPadnos> like a 6-axis dynamometer
[01:04:42] <toast_> haha
[01:04:46] <toast_> basic extra features, amirite
[01:04:54] <SWPadnos> (I think. could have been something else - it's been a while)
[01:05:30] <SWPadnos> and they were using very good measuring tools to check insert wear (standard Kenanmetal inserts)
[01:06:57] <toast_> cool
[01:23:19] <LawrenceG> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140152947574&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004
[01:23:30] <LawrenceG> anyone know about er32 collets?
[01:24:14] <LawrenceG> I am wondering about this for myshoptask as I only have a couple of MT3 collets
[01:33:21] <cradek> looks like a nice set, even has 1/8
[01:37:59] <LawrenceG> yea... that is key for most of the stuff I cut..... I am currently using a 1/8" to 1/4" adapter.... not the best solution
[01:38:19] <LawrenceG> a pain to change bits
[01:39:07] <LawrenceG> I think I break more pcb drills prying them out of the adapter than I do drilling :}
[01:39:26] <cradek> yikes
[01:39:38] <SWPadnos> pry gently
[01:39:39] <SWPadnos> :)
[01:39:40] <cradek> your spindle is MT3?
[01:39:45] <LawrenceG> yes
[01:40:33] <LawrenceG> I have a few drawbar mount collets, but the er32's look easier to change
[01:41:21] <cradek> easy to change tools of one size, not so easy to change sizes
[01:41:35] <jepler> Ziegler: awesome, I just watched and listened to your video .. I did the "O words" to set everything up and play chords; cradek did the arrangement of Daisy.
[01:42:04] <LawrenceG> video?
[01:43:08] <jepler> LawrenceG: http://images.myonlinesite.com/cnc/use/20070830/videos.html
[01:43:27] <cradek> haha
[01:43:33] <cradek> that's still so funny to me
[01:43:36] <jepler> skunkworks: you didn't run gopt on that pcb code, did you?
[01:43:39] <jepler> tsk tsk
[01:43:58] <LawrenceG> hmmm... flash... not workinhg here
[01:44:29] <jepler> LawrenceG: too bad
[01:46:31] <cradek> I should make a video - it's nicer with all 4 parts
[01:49:46] <jepler> cradek: your blog entry is more likely to be useful to someone if you say what "the right diameter" is
[01:49:55] <cradek> hmm
[01:49:58] <cradek> jmk said that too
[01:50:18] <cradek> "the right diameter" is the diameter of all your tool holders that actually fit
[01:50:40] <jepler> what if I don't have an existing tool holder?
[01:51:05] <cradek> hmm
[01:54:44] <cradek> fixed
[01:56:09] <jepler> yay
[01:56:24] <cradek> I wish I knew what the right number is
[01:56:31] <cradek> it must not be too critical
[01:58:21] <SWPadnos> I'd say the right size is "large enough to catch any retainers, and to provide a datum plane. small enough that it doesn't interfere with anything" :)
[01:58:34] <Ziegler> very nice jepler and cradek... my kids get a kick out of it... (the guys at work to... but the dont openly admit it)
[01:59:18] <Ziegler> Ive got the 4th axis... just didnt have it hooked up
[01:59:34] <cradek> cool, you should try it with
[01:59:48] <SWPadnos> well, I guess steppers do have an advantage over servos then
[02:00:34] <Ziegler> working on it!
[02:01:55] <LawrenceG> wget worked to retrieve the video... playing, but no sound... bummer
[02:02:46] <Ziegler> LawrenceG: what are you trying to play it in?
[02:02:45] <LawrenceG> wget http://images.myonlinesite.com/cnc/use/20070830/daisy.flv
[02:03:03] <LawrenceG> totem, xzine, mplayer
[02:03:03] <Ziegler> you need mp3 playback capabilites
[02:03:56] <Ziegler> mplayer plays it fine for me... but then I encoded it :-P
[02:05:00] <LawrenceG> ok... works in mplayer now..... guess the crashing browser tied up the sound device
[02:05:10] <SWPadnos> hmmm. Willie Nelson must be quieter than Blue Oyster Cult
[02:05:13] <LawrenceG> ya would think this was windows!!!
[02:05:32] <Ziegler> ubantu?
[02:05:46] <SWPadnos> most bantu probably don't have internet access
[02:06:32] <Ziegler> http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthread.php?t=449244
[02:06:56] <Ziegler> that was for you LawrenceG
[02:07:39] <LawrenceG> Ziegler: thanks... all is well now
[02:08:39] <jepler> cradek: http://www.coventrytoolholders.co.uk/pdfs/A6-A10.pdf gives 46.0mm ~= 1.811in
[02:09:31] <LawrenceG> very cute.... Jymmm probably wont hear too well as his mid band resonances are damped out :}
[02:09:47] <Ziegler> bahhh!!! my forth axis config is gone!?
[02:10:00] <SWPadnos> just pop it off the stack
[02:10:36] <Ziegler> good idea
[02:13:18] <cradek> jepler: thanks, I added that information
[02:13:19] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: Eh sonny, did ya say something?
[02:13:51] <LawrenceG> hi Jymmm ... ears burning?? have you played daisy yet?
[02:13:55] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: You did say you got a &%) and not a ^%)
[02:14:04] <Jymmm> 750 650
[02:14:22] <LawrenceG> 750x is on the way
[02:14:26] <SWPadnos> it's %($*&#(% drive
[02:14:40] <LawrenceG> hopefully pull the smarts out
[02:14:45] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: Talk to skunkworks about the X,
[02:14:59] <LawrenceG> the manual shows it as a plugin.....
[02:15:25] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: It is, but I don't remember what jumpers you have to replace when you pull out the daughter card
[02:16:37] <LawrenceG> that may take some digging or a call to customer support
[02:16:51] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: It SHOULD be in the manual
[02:17:10] <LawrenceG> I wish the schematics were as well
[02:17:19] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: Also, if you dont want the daughter card, let me know what you want for it, I just wanted to play with one for shits and giggles.
[02:17:28] <LawrenceG> how do you have yours mounted?
[02:17:49] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: Tha'ts a little personal don't ya think?
[02:18:15] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: Per the specs listed in the manual on a 1/4" aluminum plate (at the moment)
[02:18:20] <LawrenceG> I think the right answer was 'often'
[02:18:39] <Jymmm> It aint quantity, it's quality
[02:19:18] <LawrenceG> hmm... when your married you cant be choosey
[02:19:25] <Jymmm> lol
[02:20:05] <LawrenceG> the shipping on the drive was more than the drive
[02:20:29] <Jymmm> sad, aint it
[02:20:45] <LawrenceG> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=330158919233&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=014
[02:21:15] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: oh fsck me.... the seller is just 30 minutes south of me
[02:21:21] <Ziegler> input scale for angular...
[02:21:26] <Ziegler> I have it 1/4 steppting
[02:21:28] <Ziegler> stepping
[02:21:49] <Ziegler> direct direct drive
[02:21:55] <SWPadnos> steps per degree of rotation (assuming you're using ANGULAR_UNITS=degrees)
[02:22:21] <Ziegler> 1.8 deg / step
[02:22:40] <SWPadnos> the stepper is literally direct coupled to the turntable?
[02:22:45] <Ziegler> 200 steps / rotation
[02:23:10] <Ziegler> in this case I just have a stepper laying on the table
[02:23:17] <SWPadnos> ah
[02:23:21] <LawrenceG> Jymmm: that would be a fun outfit to visit
[02:23:31] <Ziegler> so input scale is 200 x 4 ?
[02:23:33] <SWPadnos> then pick some easy value
[02:24:06] <SWPadnos> like - copy the number from the Z axis :)
[02:24:12] <jepler> if you were actually using it as a rotary table, you'd put 4*200/360 = 2.2222
[02:24:21] <SWPadnos> hmmm. that may not work as expected. got to try it to find out
[02:24:39] <Ziegler> right... I realize for the reason it doesnt matter, but I am trying to get the ini file back to semi normal
[02:24:47] <jepler> if the goal is to play daisy the only important thing should be to put the same scale in daisy.ngc
[02:24:53] <SWPadnos> what table would you normally have it attached to?
[02:25:04] <Ziegler> havent built a table yet
[02:25:06] <SWPadnos> the little ones are usually 90 turns/rev or thereabouts
[02:25:08] <SWPadnos> oh
[02:25:25] <Ziegler> I just have the 4th axis with all the plans in the world to do something with it
[02:29:27] <jepler> I think if you enter 2.2222 the stepper will make 1 revolution when you command move from A0 to A360
[02:35:28] <Ziegler> hmmm
[02:36:19] <Ziegler> is Z not setup as "A"
[02:37:06] <Ziegler> program doesnt seem to move A
[02:41:08] <Ziegler> jelper
[02:41:11] <Ziegler> jepler:
[02:41:18] <Ziegler> no movement on A
[02:41:24] <Ziegler> from the program
[02:44:00] <jepler> Ziegler: try this version instead: http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/nc_files/daisy.ngc?rev=1.2;content-type=text%2Fplain
[02:44:07] <jepler> I had to modify that one to run on my 3-axis machine
[02:44:30] <Ziegler> :P
[02:46:08] <Jymmm> LawrenceG: http://www.outbackequipment.com/contact_us.htm
[02:47:50] <Ziegler> M20 eh ;-P
[02:49:19] <Ziegler> hmmm that sounded ugly... somthing is off
[02:50:32] <jepler> Ziegler: check near here:
[02:50:33] <jepler> (set XYZA axis scales)
[02:50:34] <jepler> O100 call [6400] [6400] [8000] [80]
[02:50:37] <Ziegler> I did
[02:51:10] <Ziegler> where is the bounds at... like y -1" 1"
[02:51:35] <jepler> this older version always stays right near 0,0,0,0
[02:51:47] <jmkasunich> LawrenceG: for what it's worth, the seller for that collet set is the same one cradek got his drill chuck and arbor from
[02:51:54] <Ziegler> ah... other one moved much less for me
[02:52:53] <Ziegler> aahh... had z scale typo
[02:54:16] <cradek> http://www.practicalmachinist.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=015636;p=2
[02:54:29] <jmkasunich> odd set - they omit 13/32, 17/32, 21/32, but have many other 32nds
[02:54:35] <cradek> beware the guy I bought my chuck from - maybe I just got lucky
[02:54:34] <Ziegler> A playing a low tone?
[02:56:17] <SWPadnos> cradek, I've had a problem with him, as has a friend of mine. slow or no delivery, discourteous response to inquiries, difficulty remedying problems
[02:56:28] <SWPadnos> but YMMV
[02:56:37] <LawrenceG> jmkasunich: thanks... I was checking that vendor out as they seem to have some useful stuff
[02:56:52] <cradek> SWPadnos: sounds like your experience is typical
[02:57:01] <SWPadnos> yep
[02:58:22] <cradek> sure wish I had another chuck for 0-1/2" or so though
[03:00:44] <jmkasunich> and another arbor ;-)
[03:00:55] <jmkasunich> any particular reason you bought one so big?
[03:01:33] <cradek> not paying much attention to the small size
[03:01:40] <Ziegler> HAHA!!! cool.. 4 axis does sound good!
[03:02:02] <cradek> Ziegler: time to make a new video for us?
[03:02:08] <Ziegler> yup!
[03:02:19] <jmkasunich> my biggest chuck is a 5/8, for my drill press, and I have a 3/8 to go with it
[03:02:28] <jmkasunich> for the lathe and mill, 1/2 is plenty
[03:03:13] <jmkasunich> I have a few big drill bits, handy for the first pass of a large bored hole on the lathe, but they are all morse taper shanks anyway
[03:04:46] <cradek> wonder if 1/2" goes down near 0 (he doesn't say)
[03:06:24] <jmkasunich> FWIW, my albrecht is 1/32 to 1/2
[03:06:33] <jmkasunich> dunno if the clones have the same low end
[03:07:37] <SWPadnos> I think mine does, but it's an "expensive clone", not totally cheap crap
[03:07:55] <SWPadnos> (it's an R-8 chuck though)
[03:18:53] <Ziegler> almost done uploading
[03:22:08] <Ziegler> http://images.myonlinesite.com/cnc/use/20070902/videos.html
[03:22:57] <Ziegler> that play sound for you all??
[03:23:09] <cradek> yes
[03:23:31] <SWPadnos> yep
[03:23:55] <SWPadnos> though it does sound a little like a warped record
[03:24:18] <Ziegler> sounds better in person
[03:24:44] <SWPadnos> around 17 seconds it gets disharmonious
[03:24:47] <SWPadnos> but it is cool :)
[03:25:11] <Ziegler> I think it might be because the stepper is not attached to the table
[03:25:32] <SWPadnos> could be - it may be stepping and bouncing
[03:26:05] <cradek> probably not the worst musical instrument ever, but close
[03:26:18] <SWPadnos> bagpipe
[03:26:29] <Ziegler> LOL
[03:26:30] <cradek> like the bagpipe, it has no volume control
[03:26:37] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:26:43] <SWPadnos> bagpipes are really great ...
[03:26:44] <cradek> except 1/r^2
[03:26:49] <SWPadnos> on someone else's mountain
[03:26:59] <SWPadnos> but up close, they'll rattle your teeth out
[03:27:00] <jmkasunich> I like bagpipes
[03:27:03] <jmkasunich> (in moderation of course)
[03:27:08] <SWPadnos> yes
[03:27:20] <SWPadnos> moderation like being a few miles away
[03:27:27] <jmkasunich> lol
[03:28:07] <SWPadnos> they're very nice in the right circumstances - mountain meadow, misuc wafting in on the breeze, etc
[03:28:11] <SWPadnos> music
[03:28:14] <Ziegler> its nice to have a 4 axis ini file working again
[03:28:48] <Ziegler> seem this new file you posted move back and forth in one place alot... the old file actually made a path
[03:29:05] <Ziegler> the new song ngc
[03:29:20] <SWPadnos> I was thinking that it would be neat to actually trace out a path that made something
[03:29:34] <SWPadnos> but I didn't want to think about it enough to actually do it :)
[03:29:42] <Ziegler> I like the path also
[03:35:11] <tomp> was HOSTMT12 intended for m5i20 with 3pcs 7i33?
[03:49:23] <SWPadnos> yes
[03:51:11] <toast> toast is now known as toastydeath
[03:59:14] <Ziegler> toast becomes toastydeath at bedtime?
[03:59:27] <toastydeath> nar
[03:59:44] <toastydeath> toastydeath is what i have registered
[03:59:59] <toastydeath> and is opped on other channels
[04:10:07] <Ziegler> ah
[10:14:07] <xemet> hi
[10:15:00] <xemet> I'm running a run-in-place version of emc2, I've tried to use a hal configuration file that I usually use with my installed version
[10:15:11] <xemet> this file uses new threads
[10:15:22] <xemet> but with the run in place version I get an error
[10:15:40] <xemet> insmod: error inserting '/home/xemet/emc2-trunk/rtlib/threads.ko': -1 Operation not permitted
[10:15:40] <xemet> HAL:2: ERROR: systemv failed, returned 1
[10:15:41] <xemet> HAL:2: ERROR: insmod failed, returned -1
[10:15:49] <xemet> any suggeston?
[10:15:56] <xemet> should I use sudo?
[12:23:42] <xemet> HI
[12:27:26] <jepler> xemet: when you get an "error inserting" a module, look in dmesg for the the rest of the error.
[12:27:37] <tomp> xemet: maybe... run the emc-environment script this way notice the space between '.' and text " . ~/your-emc-directory/scripts/emc-environment'
[12:27:42] <jepler> xemet: you should never use "sudo" with emc2, except for "sudo make install" or "sudo make setuid"
[12:28:08] <jepler> xemet: this wiki page lists most of the .hal and .ini differences from 2.1 to TRUNK: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?UpdatingConfigurationsForDevelopmentVersions
[12:29:16] <xemet> tried with emc-environment
[12:29:39] <xemet> but the error remains
[12:29:49] <jmkasunich> what does dmesg say?
[12:29:54] <jepler> so look at the output of "dmesg"
[12:32:25] <xemet> ok
[12:32:27] <xemet> I see this:
[12:32:33] <xemet> ERROR: new thread period 500000 is less than existing thread period 988960
[12:33:25] <xemet> so?
[12:33:42] <jepler> the fastest thread must be created first
[12:34:32] <jepler> threads creates thread1 first, then thread2, then thread3
[12:34:35] <jepler> fix your hal file
[12:35:42] <xemet> but but servo thread is created in another file
[12:36:03] <xemet> so I move those lines in the core_stepper
[12:36:37] <jmkasunich> paste your ini and hal files at pastebin.ca, and paste the url here
[12:36:57] <jepler> oh, you mean the threads created by 'loadrt motion'? You'll have to reorder things, then, so that the faster threads are loaded first (i.e., loadrt threads before loadrt motion)
[12:37:28] <jmkasunich> why are you explicitly creating threads anyway?
[12:37:41] <jmkasunich> motion gives you three, and that should be enough for most setups
[12:38:13] <jepler> I thought it created 2. it creates 3?
[12:38:22] <jmkasunich> duh, right - 2
[12:38:28] <jmkasunich> I was thinking of traj, but thats not a thread
[12:56:23] <xemet> I was using them for the pid control of the spindle
[12:56:29] <xemet> it works on the 2.1.7
[12:58:23] <jepler> you're right that it does not give an error on 2.1.7, however it does not have the intended effect either
[12:59:04] <xemet> motion creates two threads, the base at 50000 ns
[12:59:23] <xemet> and servo at 1000000
[12:59:37] <xemet> has the base floating point?
[12:59:43] <jepler> no
[12:59:57] <jmkasunich> why not run your PID in the servo thread?
[13:00:27] <xemet> I was using one at 50000 with floating point to calc the spindle speed and one of 500000 for the pid
[13:00:53] <xemet> I remember that I tried and the pid would not work as well as with the 500000 thread
[13:01:54] <xemet> now I try to run all PID and the spindle-velocity cal on the servo
[13:03:11] <jepler> "encoder" includes a velocity output; why aren't you just using it?
[13:04:06] <xemet> in the official version I had problem with velocity of encoder
[13:04:16] <xemet> because I've only two pulse per rotation
[13:04:29] <xemet> so if the thread was too fast I get 0 velocity
[13:04:48] <xemet> so I had to write a component to calc the time between two pulses
[13:04:59] <xemet> and calc the speed using that as basis
[13:05:14] <jmkasunich> what is your speed range?
[13:05:28] <jepler> since you're trying to use the development version now, you should see whether the improved velocity estimate is good enough
[13:05:30] <xemet> 3500-20000
[13:05:52] <xemet> yes...but mine is a old-development version
[13:06:04] <jmkasunich> 3500 = 116 pulses per second
[13:06:04] <xemet> the one I used to modify for the nurbs
[13:06:09] <xemet> yes
[13:06:22] <jmkasunich> I bet the velocity signal in the encoder module will work well at that speed
[13:06:37] <xemet> you mean the encoder module in the official version?
[13:06:42] <jmkasunich> (it measures the time between pulses AND the number of pulses)
[13:06:48] <xemet> or the one in the develpment version?
[13:06:55] <jepler> in the development version
[13:07:00] <jmkasunich> I don't know if the new velocity is in the released version
[13:07:02] <xemet> was it there in march?
[13:07:06] <jepler> jmkasunich: I'm pretty sure it's not
[13:07:17] <xemet> I've installed this version in march
[13:07:27] <xemet> and never upgraded it
[13:07:27] <jepler> xemet: I don't know; if you're using the development version of emc, you should update your emc using "cvs up"
[13:07:40] <jepler> the very worst version of emc to use is "cvs from weeks or months ago"
[13:07:46] <jepler> bbl
[13:07:54] <jmkasunich> jepler is right
[13:07:59] <xemet> yes, but I've used it for the nurbs modify
[13:08:04] <jmkasunich> either use a released version, or keep it updated
[13:08:06] <xemet> so if I update it
[13:08:18] <xemet> I've to check every time if my patch continues to work
[13:08:29] <xemet> if not I've to search why
[13:09:25] <jmkasunich> what exactly is your nurbs patch?
[13:09:54] <xemet> just a try
[13:10:11] <xemet> based on what jepler done time ago with spline
[13:10:27] <xemet> added a new g-code
[13:10:33] <jmkasunich> if you think it might be generally usefull, you should consider submitting it
[13:10:46] <jmkasunich> then it will become part of EMC and you won't have to worry about if it breaks when you update
[13:10:49] <xemet> well...I'm not a programmer
[13:11:12] <xemet> so I think my code is not so good as the original
[13:11:31] <xemet> it apporximate a nurbs with biarcs
[13:14:01] <jmkasunich> I really don't know what to suggest. I do know that if you stick with an old cvs snapshot, you will gradually fall behind. we cannot support random CVS checkouts, not when the most likely answer to most bugs is "we already fixed that, please update"
[13:14:29] <SWPadnos> xemet, that's the life of a patch maintainer. you get to see if it breaks whenever there's an update to the project :)
[13:14:34] <xemet> yes, I understand
[13:15:13] <SWPadnos> but you can't expect others to take the time and effort needed to fix problems in your setup that have already been fixed in the latest code
[13:15:41] <jmkasunich> http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/src/hal/components/encoder.c?rev=1.26
[13:15:53] <xemet> sorry I was asking only beacuse this was working in the 2.1.7 just to know why
[13:15:54] <jmkasunich> the improved velocity output was added to encoder.c in January
[13:16:20] <xemet> now I have pid hooked to the servo-thread and everything works
[13:16:29] <SWPadnos> I'd love to see your nurbs stuff in the EMC codebase (though I don't know if there might need to be some discussion or changes to the actual G codes used)
[13:16:31] <xemet> I've just to tune the PID better
[13:17:02] <SWPadnos> sorry if I seem a little harsh there - haven't had any coffee yet :)
[13:17:39] <xemet> don't worry, I know it is a problem of mine configuration
[13:19:26] <xemet> let's pass to simple questions
[13:19:40] <xemet> what if I want to use halcmd from the run-in-place version?
[13:20:05] <xemet> sorry
[13:20:13] <xemet> remembered emc-environment
[13:26:19] <xemet> just to know
[13:26:41] <xemet> if one would like to add a thread in the development version, what is the right procedure?
[13:27:26] <xemet> if I want for example basethread 50000, one with fp at 500000 and the servo at 1000000
[13:27:38] <xemet> is there a way?
[13:28:38] <SWPadnos> do you need FP in the base thread?
[13:29:23] <xemet> let's say no...
[13:29:49] <xemet> let's say I want only a thread intermediate between the base and the servo
[13:30:02] <SWPadnos> and 50000 is an ok BASE_PERIOD for EMC?
[13:30:36] <jmkasunich> xemet: you can't easily add a thread between base and servo in either version
[13:31:20] <xemet> so what's happens in the official version when I type loadrt threads and give a thread the 500000 value for period?
[13:31:55] <xemet> swpadnos: yes, in my configuration for now it is ok
[13:34:46] <jmkasunich> xemet: in the released version, you probably get a broken thread
[13:35:02] <jmkasunich> the CVS version checks for that case and gives an error message instead
[13:36:52] <xemet> what's a broken thread?
[13:37:09] <xemet> the thread works because it has functions hooked to it
[13:39:02] <jmkasunich> xemet: are your sure your thread is really running at 500000nS? it might be doing 1000000
[13:40:09] <xemet> I'm not sure of nothing. I can say some things:
[13:40:19] <xemet> I've added two threads with floating point in the 2.1.7
[13:40:22] <xemet> one at 50000
[13:40:34] <xemet> (the same value of base, but with fp)
[13:40:37] <xemet> and other at 500000
[13:40:42] <xemet> tuned the pid
[13:40:48] <xemet> and the pid works really well
[13:40:51] <jmkasunich> what do you get from "show threads" after that?
[13:41:12] <xemet> if I hook the functions I use to control the spindle velocity to the servo-thread
[13:41:25] <xemet> the pid doesn't work as before
[13:41:41] <xemet> so I think the thread is not running at 1000000 like the servo
[13:43:31] <xemet> this is the result of show thread http://www.pastebin.ca/679907
[13:44:31] <jmkasunich> what does "spindle.0" do?
[13:44:46] <xemet> clacs the spindle velocity
[13:44:49] <xemet> calcs
[13:44:53] <jmkasunich> how?
[13:45:20] <jmkasunich> is it reading counts from counter? or are the spindle encoder signals directly going to "spindle"
[13:45:38] <xemet> it has a counter that is incremented every period if the signal if false, when it turns to true it calcs the velocity
[13:45:55] <xemet> no, counter is there for nothing
[13:45:59] <xemet> sorry, I've to remove it
[13:46:02] <jmkasunich> btw, you should move the parport writes to after pwmgen.makepulses and counter.update-counters in the base thread
[13:46:14] <xemet> I tried to use it to get the velocity
[13:47:16] <xemet> how? just I write them after?
[13:47:34] <jmkasunich> yes, or you can use the optional argument to addf
[13:47:50] <jmkasunich> plain addf: "addf function-name thread-name"
[13:48:04] <jmkasunich> optional: "addf function-name thread-name number"
[13:48:13] <jmkasunich> if number is 1, the function will be the first one in the thread
[13:48:26] <xemet> understood
[13:48:26] <jmkasunich> if it is -1, it will be the last one (same as default)
[13:48:35] <jmkasunich> -3 means third from the end, etc
[13:49:07] <xemet> and...just for curiosity, why should I move them?
[13:49:39] <jmkasunich> you are calculating the step and pwm signals in functions 6 and 7, but you don't send them to the real world until the next time the thread runs
[13:49:51] <xemet> ah ok, of course
[13:49:58] <jmkasunich> (its only 50uS later, so it doesn't make a huge difference)
[13:50:12] <xemet> any idea about the threads?
[13:50:21] <xemet> are they broken?
[13:50:36] <jmkasunich> well, if it works, they must not be too broken
[13:50:57] <jmkasunich> I'd have to study the code carefully to see exactly what happens
[13:51:20] <jmkasunich> about 98% of users have only the base and servo threads
[13:51:38] <jmkasunich> and another 1.99% have only threads that were created with "threads", in descending order of speed
[13:51:59] <jmkasunich> very few people create threads in any other order, and very few have two threads at the same speed
[13:52:16] <xemet> I think they are really stupid :) :)
[13:52:30] <xemet> yes, I've to fix that
[13:52:38] <jmkasunich> RTAPI (the RT code that lies under HAL) creates each thread with a priority one step lower than the previous threads
[13:52:49] <jmkasunich> the goal is that fast threads have high priority so they can interrupt slower ones
[13:52:51] <xemet> I've to undesrand why my pid doesn't work with the servo thread
[13:53:34] <jmkasunich> when I talked about 98% of people I didn't mean that you were doing a bad thing
[13:53:38] <xemet> with the thread I've seen I can set Pgain to 12 and the system is responsive
[13:53:43] <jmkasunich> I meant that you were doing a poorly tested thing
[13:54:07] <xemet> if I hook it to the servo I can't set Pgain over 2
[13:54:32] <xemet> I think the problem is in the component that calcs the spindle velocity
[13:54:46] <xemet> it is not stable
[13:55:12] <jmkasunich> the output from that component is only updated when you get a pulse from the spindle
[13:55:20] <jmkasunich> thats only a few hundred times per second
[13:55:39] <xemet> yes
[13:55:57] <xemet> I should have more ppr
[13:56:07] <xemet> but I can't...
[13:56:21] <jmkasunich> you should download encoder.c from CVS head and try it
[13:56:29] <xemet> I'm doing
[13:56:44] <xemet> can I hook to the encoder only one phase?
[13:56:54] <xemet> because I don't have phase-A and B
[13:56:58] <xemet> only one
[13:57:09] <jmkasunich> I believe so - in CVS head, counter is deprecated, and there is a "counter-like" mode for encoder
[13:57:18] <xemet> ok
[13:57:21] <jmkasunich> (I think - I need to check the man page for encoder)
[13:57:24] <xemet> I'm compiling the new trunk version
[13:57:58] <xemet> so I will try on that
[13:58:44] <jmkasunich> yeah, there is a parametere "counter-mode" (a bit) set it true if you have phase only
[13:59:14] <jmkasunich> crap - I hope the man page is wrong about counter mode
[13:59:28] <jmkasunich> "When true, the counter counts each edge of the phase-A input"
[13:59:56] <jmkasunich> it should NOT count both edges - unless the signal has 50:50 duty cycle that will give bad velocity results (and bad position)
[14:01:09] <xemet> trying to use my standard configuration files with the new trunk...I get this new error:
[14:01:20] <xemet> HAL:103: setp requires 2 arguments, 3 given
[14:01:28] <xemet> the file is the core_stepper
[14:01:32] <xemet> and the line is:
[14:01:43] <xemet> setp stepgen.0.position-scale [AXIS_0]INPUT_SCALE
[14:01:59] <jmkasunich> in your ini file, is INPUT_SCALE a single number?
[14:02:03] <xemet> any suggestion?
[14:02:10] <jmkasunich> some older ini files had two numbers, a scale and an offset
[14:02:11] <xemet> now I check
[14:02:22] <jmkasunich> EMC1 used both
[14:02:43] <jmkasunich> EMC2 only uses scale, older version would ignore the 2nd number, newer version complains
[14:03:19] <xemet> ok you were right
[14:03:41] <xemet> now, I new misterious (for me) problem
[14:04:00] <xemet> emc/task/emctask.cc 312: interp_error: Parametro richiesto mancante
[14:03:59] <xemet> Parametro richiesto mancante
[14:04:00] <xemet> emc/task/emctaskmain.cc 2643: can't initialize interpreter
[14:04:35] <jmkasunich> I'm afraid I don't know much about task
[14:04:58] <jmkasunich> this is why I suggested that you only copy the CVS version of encoder.c, instead of the whole thing
[14:05:06] <xemet> emc/task/emctask.cc 312: interp_error: Coordinate system index parameter 5220 out of range
[14:05:06] <xemet> Coordinate system index parameter 5220 out of range
[14:05:31] <jmkasunich> the latest EMC2 supports xyzabcuvw coordinates
[14:05:57] <xemet> yes, I know but since you said me to ugrade my cvs version I thought it was a good chance to do that
[14:05:59] <jmkasunich> I think that param error is related to the new uvw axes
[14:06:49] <jmkasunich> updating is good, but your nurbs patch probably doesn't work with uvw
[14:07:14] <xemet> there is no nurbs pathc at the moment
[14:07:16] <xemet> patch
[14:07:19] <jmkasunich> oh
[14:07:23] <xemet> I'm trying to run the normal version
[14:07:29] <jmkasunich> hmm
[14:07:37] <xemet> I think all the old configuration files doesn't works...
[14:07:46] <xemet> I tried the sim/axis also
[14:07:47] <SWPadnos> are you running it with one of your configs?
[14:07:54] <jmkasunich> I think it has something to do with the var file
[14:08:06] <jmkasunich> old var file doesn't have variables that are needed for uvw
[14:08:17] <jmkasunich> there is a simple way to fix that
[14:08:24] <jmkasunich> unfortunately I don't remember it
[14:08:36] <xemet> yes, they were my configuration files
[14:08:38] <jmkasunich> delete your var file maybe?
[14:08:40] <SWPadnos> you need to add some vars to the var file. I'm llooking it up right now
[14:08:48] <SWPadnos> nope - deleting it won't do it
[14:08:57] <xemet> ok, the sim/axis of the trunk works
[14:09:13] <xemet> don't worry
[14:09:23] <xemet> I can easily use the example files
[14:09:37] <xemet> my configuration is little different from the standard
[14:09:43] <SWPadnos> one sec - I think you only need to add one line to the var file - I'm just looking up what it is
[14:09:50] <xemet> ok
[14:10:14] <xemet> wow, axis shows the limits
[14:10:35] <jmkasunich> heh, lots of neat new features
[14:10:42] <xemet> I always thought "why doesn't it show the limits?"
[14:11:25] <xemet> when do you think will be released the 2.2?
[14:11:32] <jmkasunich> couple months maybe
[14:11:50] <jmkasunich> we are getting close to feature freeze I think, then some testing before release
[14:12:12] <jmkasunich> the more people we can get to use CVS for the next couple months, the more bugs we will find before we release ;-)
[14:12:28] <xemet> well I'm here
[14:12:38] <SWPadnos> http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/configs/sim/sim.var?annotate=1.2
[14:12:59] <SWPadnos> the lines with ! at the start are the added ones
[14:13:29] <SWPadnos> unless you've made changes to your var file, you should be able to copy one from a new config over your old one
[14:13:44] <SWPadnos> if you do that, you'll lose any offset coordinate systems you've set up
[14:16:32] <xemet> never modified the var file
[14:20:08] <SWPadnos> then you should be OK copying one from the CVS configs over yours
[14:22:04] <xemet> ok
[14:22:08] <xemet> it worked
[14:22:23] <SWPadnos> great
[14:22:31] <SWPadnos> !
[14:22:37] <xemet> thanks
[14:22:43] <SWPadnos> sure
[14:22:57] <xemet> now I want to try the new encoder
[14:23:06] <SWPadnos> do you recall how many files had to change to add the NURBS suppot to the interp?
[14:23:13] <SWPadnos> (source files)
[14:23:16] <xemet> about 5-6
[14:23:30] <xemet> interp_convert
[14:23:33] <xemet> interp_check
[14:23:33] <xemet> interp_array
[14:23:39] <xemet> emccanon
[14:23:43] <xemet> were the mains
[14:23:45] <SWPadnos> ok
[14:23:53] <xemet> some header
[14:25:07] <xemet> I will try to launch diff to see how many changes had occurred between my old version and this trunk
[14:25:27] <SWPadnos> well, there's another way to think about it
[14:25:30] <xemet> and I will see how those are related to changes
[14:25:53] <SWPadnos> you can look at the changes in CVS between the version you based your changes on and TRUNK
[14:26:10] <SWPadnos> then try to apply those to your changed files
[14:26:29] <xemet> how?
[14:26:44] <SWPadnos> well, you can CVS to give you a diff between any two versions
[14:26:59] <SWPadnos> I don't remember the exact command line, but it's something like this:
[14:27:30] <SWPadnos> cvs diff -u -r first_revision_name/number/date -r TRUNK
[14:28:03] <SWPadnos> something like that will give you the changes since <first revision name>
[14:28:20] <xemet> ok
[14:28:29] <xemet> I will try
[14:28:29] <SWPadnos> you can also the changes you made as a diff
[14:28:44] <xemet> returning to the encoder
[14:28:49] <SWPadnos> you need the original source, then just diff -u original_file modified_file
[14:28:51] <SWPadnos> ok
[14:28:59] <xemet> so should I use it in counter-mode?
[14:29:03] <xemet> right?
[14:29:08] <cradek> I think it's easiest to just run cvs up, and then fix any clashes afterward
[14:29:21] <cradek> cvs up gets a lot of things right automatically, any other method is just more work
[14:29:31] <SWPadnos> that's probably true
[14:29:53] <cradek> and, the more often you do this, the easier it is, because there are fewer/simpler clashes each time
[14:29:55] <SWPadnos> though you can just keep (or mail around) a diff if you get one somewhere along the line
[14:31:45] <xemet> if I use the counter-mode, shoul I hook only phase-A right?
[14:32:02] <jmkasunich> right
[14:32:18] <jmkasunich> I just tested counter mode, it counts only on the rising edge, which is good
[14:32:21] <jmkasunich> I'm correcting the man page now
[14:32:28] <xemet> the output velocity is in?
[14:32:35] <xemet> rotation per second?
[14:32:59] <jmkasunich> units per second
[14:33:00] <jmkasunich> units as set by the scale factor
[14:33:42] <jmkasunich> for a spindle, you probably want to set scale to the ppr, so the position is in revs and the velocity is revs/second
[14:34:17] <xemet> so, the scale means the ppr?
[14:34:25] <xemet> I remember the old encoder has a ppr parameter
[14:34:26] <xemet> or not?
[14:34:44] <jmkasunich> the scale is the number of counts per unit of measure
[14:34:46] <jmkasunich> no ppr in the old one
[14:34:48] <jmkasunich> scale is same as before
[14:35:05] <xemet> ah ok
[14:35:05] <xemet> so,
[14:35:47] <jmkasunich> example: for a linear axis, if you have a 2mm screw pitch, and 1000 counts per rev, setting scale to 500 would make encoder's outputs be in mm
[14:36:03] <jmkasunich> (since the machine is 500 counts per mm with a 1000 count encoder and a 2mm screw)
[14:36:09] <xemet> if I want rotation for minute and I have 2 ppr I have to set it to 120
[14:36:29] <jmkasunich> yea
[14:36:29] <jmkasunich> yes
[14:36:31] <jmkasunich> uhh
[14:36:31] <xemet> ok
[14:36:33] <jmkasunich> no?
[14:36:44] <jmkasunich> lemme think a minute
[14:37:00] <jmkasunich> I think you want 2/60, not 2*60
[14:37:57] <jmkasunich> 2 pulse per second = 60 rpm, so 2/60 of a pulse per RPM
[14:38:03] <jmkasunich> so scale should be 2/60
[14:38:03] <xemet> yes
[14:38:07] <xemet> of course
[14:38:07] <xemet> 30
[14:38:10] <xemet> sorry
[14:38:10] <jmkasunich> 0.03333333
[14:38:13] <xemet> ah
[14:38:29] <xemet> no
[14:38:33] <jmkasunich> don't apologise - it is confusing for that
[14:38:39] <xemet> the scale is the number of counts per unit of measure
[14:38:46] <xemet> right?
[14:38:49] <jmkasunich> right
[14:38:53] <xemet> so for every rotation
[14:39:01] <xemet> I've 120 pulses
[14:39:13] <jmkasunich> no, for every rotation you have 2 pulses
[14:39:18] <xemet> sorry
[14:39:20] <xemet> yes
[14:39:33] <xemet> I want to say
[14:39:36] <jmkasunich> for a revolution per minute, you have 2 pulses per minute
[14:39:45] <xemet> ok
[14:39:51] <jmkasunich> 2 pulses per minute = 1/30 pulses per second
[14:40:23] <xemet> I want the velocity in rotation per minute
[14:40:28] <xemet> not per second
[14:40:31] <jmkasunich> right
[14:40:41] <xemet> so I set it to 2
[14:40:48] <jmkasunich> no
[14:40:59] <jmkasunich> if you set scale to 2, the velocity output will be in rotations per second
[14:41:23] <jmkasunich> if you set scale to 0.033333333, the velocity output will be in rotations per minute
[14:41:43] <jmkasunich> velocity = counts_per_sec / scale
[14:41:44] <xemet> ok, understood
[14:43:58] <xemet> loadrt encoder will load three encoder
[14:44:10] <xemet> if I want one should I type counts=3
[14:44:16] <jmkasunich> loadrt encoder num_chan=1
[14:44:20] <xemet> ok
[14:44:56] <jmkasunich> most newer components use "count" and default to 1, encoder is old and unfortunately we haven't change them all to work the same, because it would break existing configs
[14:45:16] <jmkasunich> (loading 3 by default was to make things simple for people with 3 axis machines, but I think it was a mistake)
[14:46:16] <CIA-24> 03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/man/man9/encoder.9: fix man page - encoder 'counter mode' counts only on rising edge, not both edges. (Both edges would give inaccurate results if the signal isn't a 50/50 duty cycle.)
[14:47:04] <xemet> GREAT
[14:47:07] <xemet> it is WORKING
[14:47:15] <xemet> all on the servo thread
[14:47:18] <xemet> PID and encoder
[14:47:23] <jmkasunich> cool
[14:47:29] <xemet> no need for other stupid threads!
[14:47:52] <xemet> and very stable
[14:48:54] <xemet> i love this PID, it was the first time I used one when I configured the spindle control
[14:49:32] <xemet> thank you very much jmkasunich
[15:00:17] <BOSS> good morning all
[15:01:14] <BOSS> has anyone use emc with a pci express video card yet?
[15:02:36] <SWPadnos> yes, but not with a real machine
[15:03:15] <BOSS> what kinda card did you use
[15:03:37] <SWPadnos> Nvidia 7300LE, 7800GT, and Quadro FX 3500
[15:03:48] <SWPadnos> also onboard Intel 965(?)
[15:04:43] <BOSS> did it use these cards native,or did you have to do anything to make them work
[15:06:04] <SWPadnos> I think it worked OK with vesa, nv, or nvidia. of course, graphics performance and latencies varied somewhat ;)
[15:06:47] <SWPadnos> I'd look at my notes and tell you how things worked, but I don't have any notes
[15:07:04] <BOSS> sounds like my notes
[15:08:48] <Roguish> Morning all. has anyone seen these: http://www.amtencoder.com/
[15:10:22] <SWPadnos> Roguish, nope - but they look cool
[15:10:38] <BOSS> i can get a 7300le on newegg for 30 bucks
[15:10:46] <Roguish> check the price: http://www.digikey.com/scripts/dksearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=102-1307-ND
[15:10:58] <SWPadnos> BOSS, yep, that's why I had one :)
[15:11:05] <SWPadnos> plus, they're low power and fanless
[15:11:50] <SWPadnos> geez - 30krpm at up to 512 PPR settings
[15:12:35] <Roguish> not that we're going 30k rpm or anything.
[15:12:39] <BOSS> gotta build a new box for the trade school setup,agp is gone
[15:12:57] <SWPadnos> are you buying a computer?
[15:13:24] <BOSS> no,build all my computers
[15:13:41] <SWPadnos> well, that's what I mean - are you getting a new PC to run the machine?
[15:13:46] <BOSS> yes
[15:14:12] <SWPadnos> ok. there's an embedded PC I've experimented with lately, which seems to have phenomenal RT performance
[15:14:30] <BOSS> really
[15:14:31] <SWPadnos> this is with no X, and lots of stuff disabled
[15:14:42] <SWPadnos> (like printing and that sort of thing)
[15:14:56] <SWPadnos> it has a PCI slot and a PCIE slot, though the onboard graphics seem to work fine
[15:15:15] <SWPadnos> with a celeron 1.8GHz, I get latencies of ~1-2 microseconds
[15:15:48] <SWPadnos> with a core 2 duo 1.8 GHz (with a busy do-nothing running in userspace), I get ~200 ns most of the time
[15:16:13] <BOSS> was gonna use an amd athlon64 socket am2 processer
[15:16:17] <SWPadnos> there's a blip every 5 seconds or so which I believe to be kjournald, so I'll be setting up a hard disk with no journaling to try that out
[15:16:26] <BOSS> on a micro atx board
[15:17:00] <BOSS> everything i have is amd
[15:17:19] <xemet> uhm SWPadnos, I used cvs diff
[15:17:21] <SWPadnos> yeah, me too except fora few specialized computers where there wasn't really a choice
[15:17:45] <xemet> in the src directory of my old modified trunk that is from june I think...not from march
[15:17:51] <BOSS> cool another amd guy in da house
[15:18:15] <xemet> it seems that nothing is changed...it gives only the changes about my modify
[15:18:43] <SWPadnos> hmmm. I don't know the CVS command line well enough to give you specific help :(
[15:18:53] <SWPadnos> but there's the cvs book online
[15:19:05] <SWPadnos> http://cvsbook.red-bean.com/
[15:19:08] <BOSS> why cant emc run the newer onboard video chipsets
[15:19:19] <BOSS> like the nv6100
[15:19:36] <SWPadnos> I've run EMC on a 6150 MCP system
[15:19:43] <SWPadnos> it sucked worse than anything I've seen
[15:20:05] <BOSS> 6150 mcp?
[15:20:14] <xemet> not, the command is right. Jepler or alexjoni gave it to me
[15:20:28] <SWPadnos> I think we're expecting to update the liveCD release when Ubuntu 8.04 comes out, since that will be an LTS release like 6.06 was
[15:20:50] <SWPadnos> BOSS, yeah - it's an nvidia integrated graphics chipset
[15:21:05] <SWPadnos> though I may have installed feisty and compiled EMC+RT - don't remember
[15:21:10] <BOSS> thought it looked familiar
[15:21:58] <SWPadnos> I'm booting up that machine to check
[15:22:01] <SWPadnos> it'll be a minute
[15:22:12] <BOSS> k
[15:23:13] <jtr> xemet: did you run the command in the top directory of your checkout? if you run it from a subdirectory I think it will only show the changes in that directory and its subdirectories. (I'm not a CVS expert, but I'm learning.)
[15:23:31] <jtr> brb - gotta check on the cat.
[15:24:24] <awallin> hi all, is Ubuntu 6.06 LTS still the preferred platform for EMC2 ? I'm installing on a new computer and wondering if something new is just around the corner...
[15:25:10] <xemet> yes, but I need the changes only in that directory and subdirectory
[15:27:19] <SWPadnos> BOSS, it's just reported as a C51 and MCP51 - and it's feisty now so I can't tell you anything concrete about the RT performance
[15:27:24] <SWPadnos> but it sucked big time
[15:27:30] <xemet> anyone here knows about the CHKS macro?
[15:27:41] <xemet> was it a replacemente of the CHKF?
[15:29:16] <BOSS> sounds like i need to get the 7300le from newegg
[15:29:24] <SWPadnos> Roguish, I'll stick one of those encoders on my next digikey order (which should be this week)
[15:29:55] <SWPadnos> BOSS, note that the accelerated driver doesn't play nicely with RT
[15:30:18] <BOSS> on the 7300?
[15:30:21] <SWPadnos> any nvidia
[15:30:41] <BOSS> what does it do
[15:30:46] <SWPadnos> I haven't looked at physical output on a scope, so I don't know how bad it is
[15:30:54] <SWPadnos> Roguish, I'll stick one of those encoders on my next digikey order (which should be this week)
[15:31:16] <SWPadnos> I don't recall if there are crash issues also, though I haven't had any
[15:31:48] <SWPadnos> I know the RT latencies can be great for a while, then you'll get something terrible (milliseconds instead of microseconds)
[15:32:39] <Roguish_> ok. i really like the price. looks like a good alternative to the HP.
[15:32:57] <BOSS> my agp nvidia seems to work ok
[15:33:14] <BOSS> geforce4mx440
[15:33:15] <SWPadnos> with the nvidia accelerated driver (and RT)?
[15:34:03] <SWPadnos> Roguish - looking at the specs, it seems they may need an adapter ring to fit on midsize or larger servos
[15:34:20] <BOSS> didnt load any driver,just emc disc,i assume its real time,stepper mill
[15:34:25] <SWPadnos> I'm pretty sure the encoder mount on my servos has a 1.5" diameter depression
[15:34:40] <SWPadnos> BOSS, ok - then you're using either nv or vesa, not nvidia
[15:35:15] <SWPadnos> you have to manually install restricted modules to get the nvidia proprietary driver
[15:36:12] <SWPadnos> hmmm. I don't have anything I can put those on. my motors use shaft encoders, not hollow
[15:36:54] <BOSS> it says nvidia
[15:37:12] <SWPadnos> as the driver, or the vendor?
[15:37:22] <BOSS> for the card,you saying emc has me running vesa?
[15:37:41] <SWPadnos> I don't know what it would do by default - it could be nv or vesa
[15:38:07] <BOSS> k,but im not running the nvidia driver,correct/
[15:38:19] <SWPadnos> you tell me. I can't tell you without a login to your machine
[15:39:15] <BOSS> lemmee reboot into ubuntu
[15:39:28] <SWPadnos> no rush. I'm pretty busy today (again) :)
[15:39:57] <BOSS> i here ya,lol
[15:42:24] <BOSS> swpadnos:im in ubuntu now
[15:42:34] <SWPadnos> ok
[15:42:49] <BOSS> where can i see what driver i have
[15:43:16] <SWPadnos> look at /usr/X11/xorg.conf
[15:43:23] <SWPadnos> though there's probably an easier way
[15:43:52] <SWPadnos> like grep -i nv /var/log/Xorg.0.log
[15:44:09] <SWPadnos> but I don't recall exactly what you see there :)
[15:44:41] <BOSS> im lost now for sure,lol
[15:46:36] <SWPadnos> oops
[15:46:46] <SWPadnos> look at /etc/X11/xorg.conf
[15:46:52] <SWPadnos> use less or something
[15:47:16] <SWPadnos> then look for the word driver (case insensitive, type "-i" inside less to toggle that)
[15:47:37] <SWPadnos> there will be several for things like wacom tablets and mice and things
[15:48:07] <SWPadnos> but it'll be pretty obvious when you get to the one for the video card, which should say nvidia or nv or vesa
[15:48:24] <BOSS> its nv
[15:48:51] <SWPadnos> ok, that's the open source, not-too-well-accelerated, RT compatible driver :)
[15:49:10] <BOSS> it seems to work
[15:50:15] <SWPadnos> that's the one that works
[15:50:22] <BOSS> would that driver work with the 7300le
[15:50:38] <SWPadnos> I think so
[15:50:47] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure though. check the google
[15:51:41] <BOSS> i have a agp nvidia ti 4800 that gives me an unexpected realtime error when i try to use it
[15:52:03] <SWPadnos> well, there are at least two aspects to "will it work"
[15:52:12] <SWPadnos> one is "can the driver even be used with that video card"
[15:52:21] <SWPadnos> the other is "will it screw up realtime"
[15:52:35] <SWPadnos> (another is "will the performance be adequate")
[15:55:21] <BOSS> shouldnt any new pci express card be adequate if it has a driver that works in emc?
[15:56:10] <SWPadnos> not necessarily when you think about realtime
[15:56:44] <Vq^> SWPadnos: is that a common problem?
[15:56:58] <Ziegler> you guys using video cards as drivers?
[15:57:06] <BOSS> boss is now very confused
[15:57:06] <Ziegler> err.. .to comunicate with the driver?
[15:57:49] <Vq^> Ziegler: i think driver here means kernel-module for handling gfx
[15:58:14] <Ziegler> oh... anyone tried using a vga card to send step / direction to a driver?
[15:59:28] <Vq^> not that i know of, interesting idea thought :)
[16:00:36] <Fritz^2> A video frame with a binary pattern, and repeat the same motion 60 times a second...hm
[16:03:35] <skunkworks> I think that was talked about on either cadcamdroedm (whatever) or the gecko yahoo user list
[16:03:56] <Ziegler> yeah... I think I have read about it some place... I didnt come up with the idea
[16:03:59] <Vq^> for higher speeds you could repeat the patterns
[16:08:44] <jtr> xemet: sorry for the delay. not sure why you aren't seeing more changes - unless there really weren't any others.
[16:09:23] <skunkworks> heh - that circuit board was milled with accelleration set to 50in/s/s
[16:33:07] <gene__> hey guys, can I use an floating point number in the scale lines on my stepper_inch.ini file?
[16:33:17] <xemet> swpadnos, thank you, my nurbs pathc was succesfully applied to the new trunk
[16:33:47] <xemet> just had to add in some points the u,v and w new coordinates
[16:34:01] <xemet> gene__ yes
[16:34:19] <gene__> I just ran trhe figures on a pulley set that will fit, and the z's 16000 turns into 34285.71
[16:34:43] <gene__> great, one less thing to sweat, thanks
[16:39:59] <gene__> next Q: McMaster Carr's acme bolts and bronze nuts, what lub will stop the squeal, or do I have to wear the black off before it shuts up?
[21:51:44] <DanielFalck> can anyone help me out with this simple program and emc?
[21:51:50] <DanielFalck> http://pastebin.ca/680446
[21:51:57] <DanielFalck> I am getting the 'Radius to end of arc differs from radius to start' error
[21:52:05] <DanielFalck> I know I can make it work with an 'R' value, but I want to understand why this doesn't work
[21:52:31] <jepler> the development version of emc has improved this error
[21:52:36] <jepler> on my system, the error reads:
[21:52:37] <jepler> Radius to end of arc differs from radius to start: start=(Z0.7500,X1.5000) center=(Z0.7500,X1.7500) end=(Z0.5000,X2.0000) r1=0.2500 r2=0.3536
[21:54:18] <jepler> center is calculated by adding I and K to start
[21:54:21] <DanielFalck> but it's supposed to end at X2. Z0.5
[21:55:37] <DanielFalck> whoops
[21:55:42] <DanielFalck> I see you have that
[21:55:41] <SWPadnos> X moves 0.5, Z moves 0.25 - that's not an even multiple of quarter circles
[21:55:57] <jepler> quarter circles??
[21:56:14] <SWPadnos> I'm visualizing in quadrants
[21:56:22] <DanielFalck> I'm doing a lathe post for apt360
[21:56:35] <SWPadnos> I suppose (a) graph paper or (b) AXIS preview would be helpful here :)
[21:56:59] <DanielFalck> I've been thinking lathe diameter stuff all day : )
[21:58:03] <jepler> emc is always probed with X as a radius
[21:58:09] <DanielFalck> so I have everything backwards and all X's *2
[21:58:52] <DanielFalck> need more coffee...
[22:02:19] <DanielFalck> thanks
[22:03:05] <fenn> i wonder why qt4-dev depends on mysql
[22:05:05] <fenn> that lathe diameter stuff is evil
[22:07:27] <DanielFalck> this works:
[22:07:28] <DanielFalck> http://pastebin.ca/680462
[22:08:07] <fenn> was that created in apt?
[22:08:11] <DanielFalck> yes
[22:08:17] <SWPadnos> yep. you're moving 0.25 in each dimension, with a 0.25 radius = 1 quadrant
[22:08:41] <SWPadnos> the last one looked like you were trying to go two quadrants in X, but only one in Z
[22:08:46] <DanielFalck> but I had to alter the X1.5 to be X 1.75 by hand. Now to work it out in the postprocessor
[22:08:59] <DanielFalck> SWPadnos: yes it did
[22:09:13] <SWPadnos> what's the intended move?
[22:09:48] <DanielFalck> In lathe code, you always think in diameters to keep it simple for the operators (and me :)
[22:09:53] <SWPadnos> heh
[22:10:05] <fenn> bah
[22:10:16] <SWPadnos> oh, so that's the problem. that should be easy (tm)
[22:10:24] <fenn> just dont do anything dumb like showing the wrong X coordinate
[22:10:35] <DanielFalck> I had multiplied all X values by 2 in the python code for the post
[22:11:27] <skunkworks> emc only does radius - shows diameter on the screen though (in axis)
[22:11:27] <DanielFalck> I've been playing with apt this weekend, trying to work out some simple roughing for the lathe
[22:13:37] <DanielFalck> http://pastebin.ca/680467
[22:13:45] <DanielFalck> that's the apt code for anyone curious
[22:14:13] <DanielFalck> a lot of code for a little bit of output
[22:14:56] <fenn> geez does it at least do multiple passes to depth?
[22:15:12] <DanielFalck> with the subroutines it will
[22:16:02] <Skullworks-PGAB> Using G41 | G42 in G18 can sometimes cause strange movements or errors
[22:16:21] <Skullworks-PGAB> on most CNC's
[22:28:58] <jepler> Skullworks-PGAB: in emc, G41/G42 cutter radius compensation is supposed to work in the G18 plane specifically for lathes .. if you run into any bugs, please report them.
[22:30:38] <jepler> fenn: I'm guessing qt4-dev depends on mysql because qt includes a database interface API
[22:30:56] <jepler> http://doc.trolltech.com/4.0/qt4-sql.html
[22:34:14] <skunkworks> jepler: did you see this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og6V-nS2dig
[22:38:30] <jepler> skunkworks: yeah, I criticized that it didn't look like you'd run gopt on it
[22:38:37] <jepler> it keeps rapiding from one side of the board to the other
[22:39:09] <skunkworks> sorry - I had actually used pcb-gcode.. Because I was running it on windows..
[22:39:22] <jepler> oh
[22:40:03] <jepler> huh -- another emc video I hadn't seen before. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9OAmw7-A2c&mode=related&search=
[22:40:12] <jepler> starts off with my favorite program shown on the CRT :-P
[22:40:13] <skunkworks> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pcb-gcode/
[22:40:41] <skunkworks> :)
[23:09:47] <Guest365> Guest365 is now known as skunkworks
[23:19:15] <fenn> if configure wants Python.h it is probably set up wrong right?