#emc | Logs for 2007-08-14

[00:00:00] <anonimasu> robin_sz: your calling plan sucks :)
[00:00:18] <robin_sz> data is very expensive in the UK
[00:00:25] <anonimasu> here too
[00:00:31] <robin_sz> £1 / mb is not uncommon
[00:00:37] <anonimasu> unless you have something called unlimited data traffic..
[00:00:38] <anonimasu> :p
[00:00:44] <robin_sz> I paid £10 / mb when raoing in .eu
[00:00:46] <toast> quantum traffic
[00:00:47] <robin_sz> roaming
[00:00:47] <anonimasu> fancy calling plan
[00:00:53] <toast> the map is both on your phone and not until you try to use it
[00:00:58] <toast> also, your cat
[00:01:21] <robin_sz> * robin_sz tosses his cat a cynaide pill
[00:01:49] <toast> haha.
[00:02:09] <robin_sz> I wonder if he eat it?
[00:02:17] <robin_sz> better not look
[00:02:19] <toast> seriously.
[00:02:29] <toast> those hadrons are quarky!
[00:03:03] <robin_sz> over here you cant buy a packet of 25 paracetemol
[00:03:20] <anonimasu> :/
[00:03:23] <robin_sz> but you can buy 25kg of potassium cyanide
[00:04:01] <robin_sz> weird
[00:04:16] <toast> i was trying to come up with a pot joke
[00:04:20] <toast> about that
[00:04:20] <toast> but couldn't
[00:04:24] <toast> i'm in a rut
[00:10:24] <anonimasu> SKF61804
[00:10:41] <anonimasu> 10$
[00:10:59] <anonimasu> 28000rpm max
[00:16:57] <jmkasunich_> jmkasunich_ is now known as jmkasunich
[00:21:17] <anonimasu> 10µm max throw
[00:21:38] <JymmmEMC> jepler: ping
[00:21:58] <anonimasu> 0.01mm..
[00:49:19] <danielbr> hello guys
[00:49:27] <danielbr> jepler: http://imagebin.org/9923
[01:00:36] <fenn> oh man, and i thought the first one was bad
[01:03:22] <jmkasunich> it kinda bugs me that the code in that drawing no longer exists
[01:03:52] <jmkasunich> it is emc1 stepper code - back when stepping was hardcoded into the motion controller
[01:06:06] <fenn> danielbr: here's some drawings i made.. maybe we should have a competition or something http://fenn.dyndns.org/pub/irc/emc-lathe-chips.png http://fenn.dyndns.org/pub/irc/emc-chips.png
[01:07:40] <danielbr> fenn: i just draw this yesterday for fun with xara
[01:08:12] <jmkasunich> fenn: those are rather strange
[01:09:17] <danielbr> the idea is a robotux
[01:14:34] <fenn> ewww galil only accepts 250 commands a second
[01:14:53] <fenn> and g-rex is even worse
[01:16:19] <jepler> fenn: it's a neat idea but it ends up hard to see
[01:16:42] <fenn> jepler: well the emc was sort of an afterthought
[01:19:12] <jepler> I think I prefer a splash screen without source code .. emc has a reptuation of "hard to understand" or "only programmers can configure it". Showing them that there's an infinite amount of code receeding into the horizon or fog will just confirm what they think
[01:20:09] <jmkasunich> maybe put g-code there instead
[01:20:56] <danielbr> yes i think is better idea, and better photos
[01:21:12] <danielbr> jepler: http://pastebin.ca/656381
[01:21:34] <danielbr> i think this will be good for pyvcp
[01:21:44] <danielbr> imagelist
[01:22:21] <danielbr> input hal for select the display picture in a label
[01:38:23] <danielbr> gn
[01:47:21] <toast_> pew pew
[01:50:49] <CIA-24> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/lib/python/pyvcp_widgets.py:
[01:50:49] <CIA-24> new tags and
[01:50:49] <CIA-24> use tag to load the image
[01:52:19] <jepler> well that didn't come through right on irc :-P
[01:52:34] <jepler> and darn, danielbr left
[01:55:20] <jepler> I must say it is really not too bad to write new widgets for pyvcp, as long as you've been doing tcl/tk for 8 years
[01:55:44] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[01:57:21] <Skullworks-PGAB> Well the heavy box came from surplus center today.
[01:58:46] <Skullworks-PGAB> Ametek servos, few treadmill motors, transformers and a 130V DC motor controller to try on one of the Treadmill motors.
[01:59:26] <Skullworks-PGAB> I was surprised - evrything was NOS
[02:01:29] <Skullworks-PGAB> I thought some of this stuff might be take offs - but no, new in wrap.
[02:03:04] <jepler> what are you going to use the treadmill motor for?
[02:03:37] <Skullworks-PGAB> now I need to tear one of the Ametek servos down to design a new end cap - so encoder will be in a water tight enclosure
[02:03:54] <Skullworks-PGAB> Treadmill motor for spindle drive
[02:04:43] <jepler> the rear shaft sure looks small
[02:04:49] <Skullworks-PGAB> 103VDC and full current is 2.5hp
[02:05:05] <Skullworks-PGAB> which one?
[02:05:06] <jepler> on the ametek servo
[02:05:19] <jepler> 3/16" it says
[02:05:19] <jmkasunich> rear shaft might be just for the encoder
[02:05:20] <Skullworks-PGAB> it is 3/16
[02:05:25] <jepler> jmkasunich: yeah I assume so
[02:05:26] <jmkasunich> not a lot of torque there ;-)
[02:05:45] <Skullworks-PGAB> its too short though
[02:06:05] <jepler> http://surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007081320590506&item=10-2351&catname= click "more photos" for a pop-up that shows the rear shaft
[02:06:18] <Skullworks-PGAB> I will have to make some press on extensions
[02:07:23] <fenn> i wonder how fast those go before the brushes explode
[02:07:49] <Skullworks-PGAB> I have another Ametek that does not have the rear shaft extension with 40VDC windings and higher rated rpm
[02:08:06] <Skullworks-PGAB> FENn : which?
[02:08:19] <fenn> the ametek servo - wondering how hard you could push it
[02:08:36] <fenn> 12A is a lot of current
[02:08:42] <Skullworks-PGAB> this batch tops out just under 1200rpm
[02:08:47] <fenn> at 38V
[02:08:57] <fenn> but i'm sure it can handle more
[02:08:56] <Skullworks-PGAB> 600 oz-in
[02:09:05] <jmkasunich> fenn: the 12A determines torque, not speed
[02:09:25] <fenn> i know, i'm saying that the current rating is usually the limiting factor, not voltage
[02:09:39] <Skullworks-PGAB> they have almost undetectable cogging
[02:09:56] <Skullworks-PGAB> very smooth (NSK bearing sets
[02:10:03] <jmkasunich> <fenn> " wonder how fast those go before the brushes explode"
[02:10:19] <jmkasunich> fast = speed, not torque, voltage, not current
[02:10:22] <Skullworks-PGAB> the treadmill motors have noticeable cogging
[02:10:24] <fenn> its speed/arcing that destroys brushes, not current
[02:10:55] <fenn> they bounce on the commutator transitions
[02:11:04] <jepler> 1150RPM is not much, you'll need some belt reduction
[02:11:11] <Skullworks-PGAB> need to tear one down - I'm thinking it might even be a 4 brush config
[02:11:44] <Skullworks-PGAB> shouldn't for my X3 on the table - I will for Z
[02:12:09] <Skullworks-PGAB> Camtronics sells these for use on BridgePorts
[02:12:55] <Skullworks-PGAB> my baby mill weighs less than a BP table and saddle
[02:12:55] <jepler> Skullworks-PGAB: what rapid rate does 1150RPM give ?
[02:13:22] <toast_> no that's nonsense.
[02:13:31] <jmkasunich> 10 tpi would give 115 ipm
[02:13:32] <Skullworks-PGAB> 1000 rpm would give 200 IPM with a .2" pitch (5TPI ballscrew)
[02:13:42] <jmkasunich> 5tpi would give 230 ipm
[02:14:00] <jepler> well yeah I was kinda asking about Skullworks's machine in particular :-P
[02:14:14] <jmkasunich> :-P to you
[02:14:39] <jmkasunich> I guess it is 5tpi ;-)
[02:14:40] <Skullworks-PGAB> yeah but I'm basing on about 85% speed to allow for headroom
[02:14:57] <jmkasunich> 2:1 reduction might be a good thing, 200ipm is pretty quick for a small machine
[02:16:08] <Skullworks-PGAB> well the Bandit BP I trained on in college was 100 IPM - the last time I ran a machine at that speed was 1987
[02:16:29] <Skullworks-PGAB> slowest machine since was 250 ipm
[02:16:49] <Skullworks-PGAB> the stuff I run daily is about 1200ipm
[02:17:40] <Skullworks-PGAB> machine will be securely mounted and I won't be overloading the table
[02:18:46] <Skullworks-PGAB> I am expecting to have to reduce the Z axis
[02:19:34] <Skullworks-PGAB> Interia + grav will play havoc during drilling cycles if I don't
[02:21:02] <jepler> I hope you can handle a return to the low speeds then
[02:22:03] <Skullworks-PGAB> I would crawl with steppers and be happy if they could take the cut without chance of loosing steps
[02:22:49] <Skullworks-PGAB> but I have been long spoiled for full closed loop control.
[02:23:21] <jepler> no argument from me
[02:23:46] <Skullworks-PGAB> Once thing that did surprise me - on the Tranny I got
[02:24:11] <Skullworks-PGAB> it had a stickker warning max output was 60A
[02:25:00] <Skullworks-PGAB> its a multi tap - but I didn't expect they had intended to use all taps at the same time
[02:25:34] <Skullworks-PGAB> but its got 8ga and 10 ga leads...
[02:25:50] <jepler> neat -- http://woodgears.ca/gear_cutting/template.html
[02:26:02] <jepler> too bad there's not a button for "export emc2 gcode using tool radius compensation"
[02:27:05] <toast_> export to EMC using CRAZY VECTOR MATH
[02:27:04] <Skullworks-PGAB> right...
[02:27:42] <Skullworks-PGAB> actually all you need is true geometery right?
[02:28:01] <Skullworks-PGAB> part edge definition
[02:28:27] <jepler> you need to figure the entry move and round any concave corners
[02:29:13] <jepler> emc2 rejects concave corners in cutter comp mode .. you have to put an arc at least the radius of the tool at those points
[02:29:43] <Skullworks-PGAB> is the top of the tooth profile a flat line?
[02:29:56] <roltek> hi can you tell me where to look for information about auto tuning of pid
[02:31:24] <Skullworks-PGAB> hmm - I had to cut a big sprocket for Browning 50 series chain
[02:32:09] <Skullworks-PGAB> I may still have the g-code for that - might dress it up to EMC spec and dump it in sim for fun.
[02:37:01] <jepler> 'night all
[02:49:05] <toast_> toast_ is now known as toastydeath
[06:25:11] <fenn> i thought the emc list was dead, but i guess i was just unsubscribed to emc-users
[06:50:06] <alex_joni> oh
[06:50:12] <alex_joni> how about emc-developers?
[06:59:26] <fenn> ya i was subscribed to emc-developers but there was like 3 messages in the last 3 months
[07:00:30] <fenn> nine, excluding sf bug reports
[07:00:54] <fenn> oh maybe i deleted some.. whatver
[07:02:08] <fenn> look i made a pretty picture
[07:02:10] <fenn> http://fenn.dyndns.org/pub/sketches/resynth/analog-resynth-640.png
[07:03:51] <alex_joni> fenn: got a voting ballot?
[07:04:37] <fenn> yep - they shouldnt have made you pick 2 people to delete
[07:05:02] <fenn> i dont want to delete anyone
[07:07:45] <fenn> i feel like i should know the answer to this reverse kinematics question
[07:14:59] <alex_joni> cool.. nice
[07:15:09] <alex_joni> what question?
[07:15:19] <alex_joni> (the cool.. nice was about the pretty picture)
[07:17:08] <fenn> Are there some subtle reasons, like
[07:17:08] <fenn> homing, or backlash, that require the reverse kinematics to be
[07:17:08] <fenn> implemented in EMC, rather than in front of it?
[07:17:16] <fenn> he means "in realtime"
[07:17:33] <fenn> from the recent PUMA thread
[07:28:11] <alex_joni> I can only see synchronisatioin as the real issue
[07:28:22] <alex_joni> oh, and user interaction
[07:28:39] <alex_joni> on my robots I very often switch from joint to world mode when programming
[07:28:46] <alex_joni> (e.g. jogging)
[07:29:07] <fenn> but that doesnt need to be realtime does it?
[07:37:39] <alex_joni> the switch? no
[07:37:59] <alex_joni> but I wonder how you can implement jogging in world mode if the kins are not in emc
[07:39:42] <fenn> not the switch, the kins calculations
[07:39:53] <fenn> if you're jogging joints you dont need to know where you are in cartesian space
[07:40:02] <fenn> well not in realtime at least
[07:40:55] <fenn> i always get forward/reverse kinematics mixed up..
[07:41:03] <alex_joni> fenn: me too ;)
[07:41:09] <fenn> i think they named it wrong
[07:41:13] <alex_joni> I guess it's forw/invers from the point whre you're looking
[07:41:17] <fenn> and that damned ln -s
[07:41:17] <alex_joni> but anyways..
[07:41:21] <alex_joni> HAHAHA
[07:41:24] <alex_joni> me too
[07:41:30] <alex_joni> anyways
[07:41:44] <alex_joni> the calcs are really not a big workload
[07:41:51] <fenn> right
[07:41:56] <alex_joni> compared to outputting step and dir
[07:42:10] <alex_joni> outb takes about 100 times longer than a full kins calc
[07:42:13] <alex_joni> on a "modernish" computer
[07:42:18] <fenn> i can see how it might be more important with super high resolution and high speeds
[07:42:25] <fenn> and fast servo rates
[07:42:26] <alex_joni> and you only do it at the servo rate
[07:42:39] <alex_joni> I really see no point in moving it outside of emc
[07:42:54] <fenn> yeah i was just curious if it was used for anything really
[07:43:38] <fenn> how do you measure the amount of time something takes btw?
[07:43:41] <fenn> a calculation
[07:45:56] <alex_joni> you use hal threads
[07:46:14] <alex_joni> put it in a different thread, and check the min/max times
[07:46:29] <alex_joni> you'll only get computer clocks though, but I think it's ok for comparing
[07:48:48] <fenn> aha i see
[07:48:48] <fenn> Period FP Name ( Time, Max-Time )
[07:48:48] <fenn> 1000000 YES servo-thread ( 5721, 482074 )
[07:49:18] <alex_joni> fenn: yeah that :P
[07:49:41] <alex_joni> you can even reset the max-time
[07:51:52] <anonimasu> 8morning
[07:51:53] <anonimasu> morning
[08:15:16] <alex_joni> hi
[08:43:59] <anonimasu> what's up?
[09:04:23] <Dallur> hmm, has anyone else noticed recent interest in EMC from China ?
[09:08:22] <Dallur> I noticed last night that my website has more hits from china than any other country and there seems to be some interest on the mailing list, wonder if we will start seeing Chinese hardware shipping with emc :)
[09:11:10] <alex_joni> * alex_joni would have no problem with that
[09:11:18] <alex_joni> unless they don't follow GPL
[09:14:18] <Jymmm> BSD RULES!
[09:14:48] <alex_joni> you mixed them letters up
[09:15:06] <Jymmm> how's that
[09:15:39] <alex_joni> it's bdsm not bsd
[09:16:14] <Jymmm> lol, Ok BSD LICENSE hows that?
[09:16:30] <alex_joni> boring?
[09:16:40] <Jymmm> ?
[09:16:48] <alex_joni> BSD LICENSE hows that?
[09:16:50] <alex_joni> boring?
[09:17:13] <Dallur> hmm is bsd performed by a guy in a daemon costume hunting a stuffed penguin ?
[09:17:19] <Jymmm> Ok, let me put it another way.... screw GPL
[09:17:51] <alex_joni> Jymmm: everyone with his sexual preferences :P
[09:18:34] <archivist> hmm leather or rubber daemon
[09:18:40] <Jymmm> If you consider GPL a sexual prefernce, you are one sick puppy
[09:18:52] <alex_joni> I don't.. but you want to screw it
[09:19:15] <Jymmm> not necessarily for pleasure
[09:19:29] <Jymmm> unless destroyed
[09:19:33] <alex_joni> sexual preferences aren't always for pleasure
[09:19:37] <alex_joni> I heard
[09:20:00] <archivist> bsd is to loose it allows commercial predators to rip off the little guy
[09:21:05] <Jymmm> Ew, look at SQLite, they really don't care about that.
[09:21:10] <Jymmm> s/ew/eh/
[09:21:14] <alex_joni> I would care
[09:21:20] <Jymmm> paranoid
[09:21:33] <alex_joni> nope.. probably only ego-centered :P
[09:21:42] <Jymmm> ok, I'll buy that
[09:23:07] <Jymmm> One BIG issue I have with GPL is the distribution of source code, a legalese and logisitics nightmare
[09:23:22] <alex_joni> hmm.. it seems there are a couple "BSD" licenses
[09:24:10] <alex_joni> original BSD license, modified BSD license, freeBSD license
[09:25:11] <Jymmm> "BSD Style" license
[09:25:27] <alex_joni> well.. the modified BSD is GPL compatible
[09:25:32] <alex_joni> the original is non-free
[09:25:35] <Dallur> The bad thing about all these licenses that when push comes to shove the people shipping products based on for instance GPL will do anything possible to prevent users from obtaining the source code and building their own versions
[09:27:06] <Jymmm> Dallur: Well, that's what GPL says you have todo
[09:27:08] <Jymmm> BSD doesn't
[09:27:06] <Jymmm> (for the most part)
[09:27:06] <Dallur> Jymmm: Yup, well attribution is mostly ignored
[09:27:06] <archivist> hence gpl==good
[09:27:23] <Dallur> I have been trying to get Promise to give me the complete source code for a NAS box they sell based on linux, it's been a month and so far all I have is standard unmodified tarballs for samba, the ftp server and the linux kernel
[09:27:34] <Jymmm> archivist: till oyu have to comply wioth legaese
[09:27:47] <Dallur> these guys will only buckle under legal pressure
[09:27:54] <alex_joni> Jymmm: you can always put the sources online
[09:28:07] <alex_joni> saving you of any shipping costs
[09:28:08] <Jymmm> alex_joni: I dont want the source available
[09:28:21] <alex_joni> Jymmm: then develop your own product
[09:28:36] <alex_joni> the people who wrote the stuff and put it under GPL WANT the source available
[09:28:41] <Jymmm> alex_joni: That's exactly what it's for
[09:28:44] <alex_joni> that's why emc is GPL
[09:28:56] <alex_joni> I want to look at any derivatives of it
[09:29:17] <alex_joni> and I usually like sources better than product
[09:30:28] <Jymmm> I just dont want all the BS that goes along with GPL is all.
[09:31:55] <Jymmm> It's the BS that Dallur is doing that I dont want to deal wiht =)
[09:39:46] <Jymmm> Dallur: =)
[14:16:24] <jepler> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190139316280 -- claims to get 70in/min rapids from wimpy little steppers ("75 oz/in Bipolar Nema-17 1.8 degrees").
[14:17:30] <jepler> the rapids in that movie sure don't look like 70ipm
[14:21:23] <skunkworks> neat little machine.. there is a guy on cnczone that makes small aluminum router about that size. pretty cool little machines.
[14:24:27] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB2jwOQlRNE&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ecnczone%2Ecom%2Fforums%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Fp%3D248327%26highlight%3Dyoutube
[14:25:22] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPO8UWYsIho&mode=related&search=
[14:26:04] <skunkworks> I think he is backlogged right now
[14:26:54] <skunkworks> here is the thread on the mini http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21872&highlight=youtube
[14:27:40] <skunkworks> and his midi (a little bigger) http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37739
[14:29:55] <jepler> skunkworks: he sells these or just develops them?
[14:31:17] <skunkworks> he sells them on ebay. But he doesn't have any up right now.
[16:06:20] <danielbr> hi, jepler around?
[16:07:01] <danielbr> thanks for that change in pyvcp
[16:07:03] <jepler> danielbr: for a few minutes
[16:07:28] <danielbr> i have problems with correct sintax
[16:07:42] <danielbr> examples please
[16:07:58] <jepler> did you look at http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/pyvcp-image-demo.tar.gz ?
[16:08:07] <danielbr> no
[16:08:14] <danielbr> i'll
[16:08:19] <jepler> OK, let me know if it helps
[16:10:15] <jepler> by the way, it is also possible to use two images for a checkbutton: <checkbutton indicatoron="0" image="xa" selectimage="yc"/>
[16:10:16] <danielbr> i think i undestand now
[16:11:39] <jepler> for best results, make all the images the same size
[16:11:47] <jepler> (all the images to be shown in one widget, that is)
[16:16:20] <skunkworks> what is the name of the opensource voip - like the cisco.
[16:16:53] <bill2or3> asterix ?
[16:18:08] <skunkworks> I think that is it.. thank you
[16:21:34] <danielbr> jepler using your example replacing by images i get errors
[16:24:42] <jepler> is an error message shown?
[16:24:51] <danielbr> http://pastebin.ca/657100
[16:25:17] <jepler> that's the full error?
[16:25:41] <danielbr> yes
[16:26:50] <danielbr> http://pastebin.ca/657101
[16:26:52] <jepler> OK how about your xml file?
[16:28:29] <danielbr> http://imagebin.org/9936 and http://imagebin.org/9935
[16:28:34] <danielbr> my images
[16:29:34] <jepler> you have <pyvcp> inside <pyvcp>
[16:29:40] <jepler> there should probably only be one <pyvcp> tag
[16:30:57] <danielbr> yes, my error
[16:31:16] <danielbr> thank you very much!
[16:31:20] <jepler> it works now?
[16:31:30] <danielbr> fine!
[16:31:35] <jepler> great
[16:31:38] <jepler> bbl
[17:59:42] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[18:15:12] <lewin2> lewin2 is now known as lewing
[18:21:07] <CIA-24> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/user_comps/pyvcp.py: try to avoid 'Error: Multiple components with the same name' by explicitly exit()ing the component when pyvcp terminates
[18:23:34] <CIA-24> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/lib/python/vcpparse.py: improve the quality of the error message for certain invalid files
[18:55:48] <JymmmEMC> yo ho ho
[18:59:49] <skunkworks> and a bottle of spiced rum
[19:01:29] <JymmmEMC> =)
[21:16:18] <skunkworks> woo hoo - wife just got a job closer to home. 30min drive vs 60min.
[21:18:12] <alex_joni> nice
[21:18:18] <alex_joni> saves some fuel I bet ;)
[21:20:18] <skunkworks> Yes - and deer colisions ;)
[21:20:52] <skunkworks> Plus we can commute now.
[21:21:02] <skunkworks> commute?
[21:21:20] <skunkworks> (car pool)
[21:22:27] <alex_joni> coo
[21:41:21] <JymmmEMC> damn, he disconnected before I give my smartass reply
[23:19:03] <skunkworks> boy it is nice having a battery that last for more than 10 min in my portable. :)
[23:19:32] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks: Before oyu left I had a smartass comment for ya
[23:19:45] <skunkworks> oh yah? let me look
[23:20:01] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks: Oh, I was waiting till you returned
[23:20:13] <skunkworks> oh - lay it on
[23:20:57] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks: Your wife's new job is The Madam at the cathouse, and your are HER bitch
[23:21:20] <skunkworks> ah - and what is wrong with that?
[23:21:38] <skunkworks> a little s&m never hurt anyone.
[23:21:52] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks: I dun know, depends what she's into I suppose, but that also means you have to service the 90yo widows too =)
[23:21:50] <toast> or DID it
[23:22:12] <skunkworks> ;)
[23:22:34] <JymmmEMC> Stick and stones might break my bones, but whips and chains excite me!
[23:38:00] <Guest482> Guest482 is now known as skunkworks_