#emc | Logs for 2007-08-13

[00:06:01] <a-l-p-h-a_> a-l-p-h-a_ is now known as a-l-p-h-a
[00:11:17] <Jymmm> toastydeath: zero-switching fiberoptic ethernet
[00:15:20] <toastydeath> you already said that
[00:15:26] <toastydeath> i was listing other things i can't afford
[00:15:41] <Jymmm> toastydeath: you can afford a bewolf cluster
[00:16:24] <toastydeath> the network interconnect
[00:16:37] <toastydeath> costs like 4k a card
[00:16:39] <toastydeath> or something
[00:16:39] <Jymmm> toastydeath: just a 10/100 switch
[00:16:57] <toastydeath> i used to have a cluster
[00:17:00] <toastydeath> yeah, i know
[00:17:10] <Jymmm> well...
[00:17:39] <toastydeath> pew pew pew
[00:17:44] <toastydeath> optics!
[00:17:46] <Jymmm> sthu! lol
[00:18:08] <toastydeath> lol
[00:18:30] <Jymmm> I'd have a cluster, if I could program SMP programs for it
[00:18:41] <toastydeath> i got to go to this supercomputing confrence in san diego
[00:18:42] <toastydeath> w/ my dad
[00:18:53] <toastydeath> that's what he did for a long time
[00:19:00] <toastydeath> i don't have any particular cluster computing qualifications
[00:19:11] <Jymmm> SDSC
[00:19:25] <Jymmm> A firend of mine worked there
[00:19:53] <JymmmEMC> He said it was really cool working on it
[00:20:14] <toastydeath> if that's your thing they're real neat
[00:20:29] <JymmmEMC> I kept trying to bribe him to get me an account on it for 24 hours.
[00:20:35] <toastydeath> hahah
[00:20:52] <toastydeath> i used to have access to a 360 node system
[00:20:56] <JymmmEMC> He couldn't, they audio all cpu cycles
[00:21:01] <JymmmEMC> audit
[00:21:04] <toastydeath> that sucks
[00:21:18] <toastydeath> what did you want to run
[00:21:33] <JymmmEMC> just some lil crypto thing
[00:21:39] <toastydeath> john?
[00:21:45] <JymmmEMC> mary?
[00:21:49] <toastydeath> no, john the ripper
[00:22:03] <toastydeath> i assumed you meant some sort of password cracker
[00:22:06] <JymmmEMC> ah, that would have worked.
[00:22:20] <JymmmEMC> some other things too...
[00:22:22] <toastydeath> lol
[00:22:35] <JymmmEMC> some probablility stuff
[00:22:53] <JymmmEMC> err permutations I mean
[00:24:28] <toastydeath> i think the only task i've ever run on a cluster
[00:24:32] <toastydeath> is something to compute pi
[00:24:42] <toastydeath> someone else clearly should have been me
[00:24:45] <toastydeath> while i had all that stuff
[00:24:57] <toastydeath> wasted.
[00:25:35] <JymmmEMC> heh
[00:25:58] <JymmmEMC> is john available for nix?
[00:39:22] <cradek> can someone help me figure out the specifier for an indexable insert?
[00:40:01] <cradek> I have an unknown milling cutter and I'm stuck on measuring the size
[00:40:20] <cradek> "for regular polygons and diamonds it is the number of eights of an inch in the nominal size of the inscribed circle"
[00:40:57] <cradek> and I can't figure out the nominal inscribed circle (I don't get an integer number of eighths no matter what I do)
[00:50:58] <fenn> i think the circle touches the tips of the polygon, but inserts usually have a radius on the corner which messes up your measurement
[00:51:45] <cradek> I figured that would make the most sense, but I think that would be circumscribed, not inscribed?
[00:52:21] <fenn> inscribed polygon A polygon placed inside a circle so that each vertex of the polygon touches the circle.
[00:52:46] <fenn> maybe they said it backwards
[00:52:55] <fenn> inscribed polygon vs inscribed circle
[00:53:07] <fenn> or i could be wrong
[00:55:16] <cradek> I wish I could find dimensioned drawings (dimensioned how normal people would do it)
[00:55:52] <cradek> for instance mine measures .1" thick, but that's specified in decimal multiples of sixteenths of inches
[00:56:08] <cradek> ... rounded to two numbers sometimes, or other times just one number
[00:56:26] <fenn> carbide inserts are the future
[00:56:30] <cradek> so .1 = 1.536 sixteenths, which I think is "15"
[00:56:49] <cradek> I only see one model at enco which has "15" in it
[00:57:15] <cradek> maybe I should get that one :-)
[00:57:24] <jmkasunich__> can you post a photo of the insert?
[00:57:33] <jmkasunich__> or do you have a hole and need an insert to fit?
[00:57:47] <cradek> the tool has one in it, and one missing
[00:57:54] <cradek> (so I don't have the screw either, unfortunately)
[00:58:01] <jmkasunich__> yuck
[00:58:11] <jmkasunich__> that's gonna be a lot harder to find than the insert
[00:58:18] <fenn> oh poo pooh
[00:58:23] <cradek> maybe I should get a new one
[00:58:28] <jmkasunich__> new what?
[00:58:35] <jmkasunich__> tool?
[00:58:36] <cradek> completely new tool
[00:58:41] <jmkasunich__> probably ain't cheap
[00:58:43] <jmkasunich__> what kind of tool is it?
[00:58:59] <cradek> .75 insertable end mill
[00:59:04] <cradek> two square inserts
[00:59:15] <jmkasunich__> bah
[00:59:19] <jmkasunich__> get a regular end mill
[00:59:30] <jmkasunich__> you aren't gonna be doing production work anyway
[00:59:47] <jmkasunich__> * jmkasunich__ doesn't believe in inserted tools for home shops
[00:59:54] <cradek> sure but I break the points off and can't sharpen them...
[01:00:07] <fenn> * fenn believes in buying tooling for $0.3/lb at the scrapyard
[01:00:08] <cradek> I love my little insert lathe tools
[01:00:20] <jmkasunich__> I'm talking about endmills
[01:00:24] <cradek> fenn: "eh, sharp enough"
[01:00:42] <fenn> half of them are gunked up with titanium
[01:01:10] <jmkasunich__> cradek: regarding the lathe, you are talking about breaking off carbide tips, right?
[01:01:20] <jmkasunich__> I don't use carbide at all on the lathe
[01:01:22] <jmkasunich__> HSS all the way
[01:01:38] <cradek> no, I mean end mills
[01:01:49] <jmkasunich__> you break the tips of endmills?
[01:02:01] <jmkasunich__> how?
[01:02:02] <cradek> well seems like, yes
[01:02:16] <jmkasunich__> (or do you mean those tiny things you use for PCBs?)
[01:02:30] <cradek> dropping them, smashing them into something
[01:02:38] <jmkasunich__> oh
[01:02:39] <cradek> cleaning earwax with them, I dunno
[01:02:50] <fenn> ouch
[01:02:59] <jmkasunich__> jmkasunich__ is now known as jmkasunich
[01:03:04] <cradek> I always seem to have 1.5 or 3.5 flute end mills
[01:03:17] <jmkasunich> gotta be nicer to them
[01:03:30] <toastydeath> carbide?
[01:03:31] <cradek> probably from trying to cut metal on my wimpy tabletop mill
[01:04:03] <jmkasunich> weren't you just talking about 3/4" ?
[01:07:17] <toastydeath> also why don't you folks like carbide and inserts
[01:07:29] <jmkasunich> toastydeath: that might just be me
[01:07:38] <toastydeath> ah
[01:07:51] <jmkasunich> I run a light mill, at feeds and especially speeds that don't really make good use of carbide
[01:08:12] <jmkasunich> most carbide isn't really that sharp either, HSS is better for taking that last tiny cut
[01:08:28] <toastydeath> coated carbide isn't as sharp, but plain carbide is
[01:08:42] <jmkasunich> neither one is as sharp as HSS
[01:08:48] <jmkasunich> too brittle
[01:08:50] <toastydeath> interesting, i've never heard that before
[01:09:26] <fenn> does coating always round the edge?
[01:09:30] <toastydeath> yes
[01:09:50] <fenn> there's no special electropolishing like they do on scalpels?
[01:09:51] <toastydeath> vibration from use in a machine that isn't strictly rigid will also destroy the edge very quickly
[01:10:19] <toastydeath> what do they coat scalpels with?
[01:10:23] <fenn> nothing
[01:10:34] <jmkasunich> blood
[01:10:36] <toastydeath> i was aware they lapped scalpels
[01:10:56] <fenn> its too labor intensive to sharpen them by hand so they electropolish them
[01:10:59] <toastydeath> but i'm not an expert on scalpels
[01:11:34] <fenn> and then they put them under a big granite pyramid :D
[01:12:15] <Ziegler> ?
[01:12:39] <fenn> pyramids supposedly make razor blades sharper
[01:14:11] <Ziegler> ah
[01:22:38] <fenn> yay i was wrong about the inscribed circle/polygon thing
[01:22:43] <fenn> the circle is inside the polygon
[01:23:10] <jmkasunich> I thought you guys already figured that out
[01:25:18] <jmkasunich> http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-insert-d.htm
[01:25:30] <jmkasunich> doesn't define inscribed circle, but lots of insert info
[02:00:45] <toastydeath> i like carbide
[02:01:00] <toastydeath> i have blown up my fair share of cutters, though
[02:01:05] <toastydeath> and i'm only 21
[02:27:49] <cradek> eek, $80 shipping
[02:27:52] <cradek> oh well
[02:28:10] <jmkasunich> the vise?
[02:28:13] <cradek> yep
[02:28:16] <cradek> to be expected
[02:28:17] <jmkasunich> buck a pound
[02:45:43] <Jymmm> cradek: how nbig is it?
[02:45:44] <Jymmm> big
[02:46:15] <cradek> it's just a normal 6" mill vise
[02:46:33] <Jymmm> cradek: ok, largest shipping dimension
[02:46:41] <toastydeath> 12" i think
[02:46:43] <toastydeath> 12" or 13"
[02:46:56] <cradek> probably something like that
[02:47:09] <toastydeath> depends on if it's an extended opening or not
[02:47:18] <Jymmm> cradek: USPS Priority Mail Flat rate service $9 up to 75lbs, MUST FIT IN THEIR BOX
[02:47:47] <cradek> I don't have much choice - I just clicked "checkout"
[02:47:53] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: he's getting, not sending
[02:48:09] <Jymmm> call and ask, the boxes are free for them
[02:48:17] <Jymmm> err 70 lbs
[02:48:32] <Jymmm> http://www.usps.com/shipping/prioritymail.htm
[02:48:48] <toastydeath> is a 6" vise 70 lbs?
[02:48:51] <toastydeath> i would have pegged it at 40
[02:48:56] <toastydeath> an 8" is more like 70
[02:49:04] <cradek> I think it said 75
[02:49:34] <toastydeath> whack
[02:49:51] <jmkasunich> 79 actually
[02:50:08] <jmkasunich> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=299&PMITEM=425-7260
[02:50:34] <jmkasunich> bigger than 12" long too I bet
[02:51:10] <Jymmm> and FedEx Ground is usually MUCH cheaper (and slower) than that.
[02:52:15] <toastydeath> whack man
[02:56:56] <fenn> why do people use that kind of vise vs a toolmaker's vise?
[02:57:38] <toastydeath> higher holding force
[02:58:12] <toastydeath> and vice brands like Kurt actually make a better vise than most toolmaker-style vises
[02:58:53] <fenn> you mean there is higher quality in general?
[02:59:06] <toastydeath> very, very much so
[02:59:29] <toastydeath> but in the more affordable range (kurt and kin are expensive)
[02:59:44] <toastydeath> the toolmaker vise may be more accurate, but doesn't have the holding force for heavier machining operations
[03:00:31] <fenn> what if i put a ball bearing on the screw :P
[03:00:55] <toastydeath> that would probably be the worst possible thing =)
[03:00:56] <jmkasunich> ball bearings aren't the best choice for low speed and heavy load
[03:01:03] <fenn> garr
[03:01:10] <fenn> needle thrust bearing
[03:01:13] <toastydeath> also bad
[03:01:19] <fenn> why?
[03:01:30] <jmkasunich> line contact
[03:01:34] <toastydeath> still doesn't take the same load that an acme or buttress screw thread can
[03:01:42] <fenn> not the screw thread silly
[03:01:46] <toastydeath> but the bearing isn't the issue
[03:01:46] <fenn> the bearing
[03:02:02] <toastydeath> the overall flatness of the vise, how it torques under uneven load
[03:02:03] <fenn> the thing that pushes on the two blocks
[03:02:14] <toastydeath> how much lift it imparts to the piece
[03:02:23] <fenn> ok so its the rigidity of the vise that's an issue
[03:02:26] <toastydeath> yeah
[03:02:35] <jmkasunich> fenn: what exactly are you referring to when you say "toolmakers vise"?
[03:02:55] <fenn> http://www.littlemachineshop.com/Products/Images/480/480.1590.jpg
[03:03:19] <fenn> sorry, it only pushes on one block
[03:03:24] <jmkasunich> thats what I thought
[03:03:32] <fenn> think-o
[03:03:41] <fenn> was thinking about leadscrews for some reason
[03:03:55] <jmkasunich> I have one of those vices, about a 2.5" one
[03:04:00] <jmkasunich> I like it quite a bit
[03:04:17] <toastydeath> they're handy
[03:04:21] <jmkasunich> but it doesn't have the same clamp force as a real milling vise
[03:04:35] <toastydeath> i keep a milling vise on my bench at work for clampin' on stuff
[03:04:36] <cradek> I have a small one too, I've done minor milling with it
[03:04:47] <fenn> the bar in a hole style seems like it would be annoying; i know they make them with a sawtooth on the underside for the nut to grab on
[03:04:57] <fenn> for quick adjustment
[03:05:05] <toastydeath> fenn: ?
[03:05:16] <Jymmm> toas the bar you have to pull out
[03:05:31] <toastydeath> i see
[03:05:44] <jmkasunich> on mine, there is a pocket in the underside, which cuts the holes at their centerline
[03:05:46] <Jymmm> toastydeath: actually, have you seen one?
[03:05:57] <toastydeath> there are a bunch of ones at work, i've never used one before
[03:06:00] <jmkasunich> so if you use a long dowel pin, it goes thru the holes and you have to pull it out
[03:06:11] <toastydeath> or really done much beyond handle one
[03:06:14] <jmkasunich> if you use a shorter one, it sets in the part of the hole that is really just a slot
[03:06:18] <Jymmm> toastydeath: gotcha, what jmkasunich just said
[03:06:33] <toastydeath> the other guys use them for quick boring hobs
[03:06:38] <toastydeath> *jobs
[03:06:41] <toastydeath> and grinding
[03:06:44] <fenn> see no holes in the sides: http://www.grizzly.com/products/H7541/images
[03:06:56] <toastydeath> the one thing i always wondered is how those vises clamp
[03:06:57] <fenn> er.. maybe
[03:07:16] <toastydeath> it looked, to me, that there was some sort of clamp operated by that little screw
[03:07:20] <jmkasunich> toastydeath: hang on a bit, I'll take pics of mine
[03:07:21] <toastydeath> could someone enlighten me
[03:07:24] <toastydeath> ty sir
[03:07:32] <Jymmm> may he have another
[03:07:59] <toastydeath> haha
[03:08:19] <fenn> i thought the screw was threaded into a cross-drilled bar that went into the holes on the side
[03:08:27] <Jymmm> http://www.hossmachine.com/images/precision%20vise%20clamps%20crop_201x158.jpg
[03:08:46] <toastydeath> oh, i meant the actual vise clamping mechanism
[03:08:56] <toastydeath> but that's also something i did not know
[03:09:33] <toastydeath> i thought the clamping mechanism for the jaws was like, sort of like a gib lock in reverse
[03:09:53] <toastydeath> let me just say the word "like" a few more times
[03:10:29] <Jymmm> go ahead
[03:10:40] <fenn> pew pew pew
[03:10:55] <toastydeath> a+
[03:11:11] <toastydeath> before we did bearings my company used to make tooling
[03:11:17] <toastydeath> so we have like, a whole rackload of spare milling vises around
[03:11:21] <toastydeath> it's ridiculous
[03:11:29] <toastydeath> we have a whole stockroom of random crap the old company made
[03:11:38] <toastydeath> need a toolholder? go in the back.
[03:11:38] <fenn> used to make vises?
[03:11:43] <toastydeath> all sorts of tooling, yes
[03:11:49] <fenn> why dont they sell it?
[03:12:00] <toastydeath> because they're strictly a bearing company now
[03:12:03] <Jymmm> http://www.general-tool.com/176-809A.jpg Toolmaker's Microscope
[03:12:02] <fenn> pff
[03:12:03] <toastydeath> two companies merged
[03:12:15] <toastydeath> and they like having vises around they can just grind
[03:12:18] <toastydeath> if they need a matched set of vises
[03:12:51] <toastydeath> it's all useful, consumable stuff in a shop
[03:12:56] <toastydeath> so they keep it.
[03:13:19] <toastydeath> they have a couple differential levels and other machine gear
[03:13:26] <toastydeath> weird random stuff stashed away
[03:13:56] <toastydeath> one of the stranger thing is a HUGE vertical head attachment for a horizontal boring machine
[03:14:02] <toastydeath> i don't know why it's there.
[03:14:09] <toastydeath> it's like 4 feet long
[03:14:27] <fenn> in case you need it
[03:14:43] <toastydeath> in case we suddenly buy a large HBM, and need a vertical head
[03:14:50] <toastydeath> we are prepared, goddamnit
[03:15:50] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/vise1.jpg
[03:15:58] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/vise2.jpg
[03:16:22] <toastydeath> ah!
[03:16:23] <toastydeath> thank you kind sir
[03:16:38] <toastydeath> the bottoms of ours are like, closed
[03:17:00] <toastydeath> that's a pretty darn clever mechanism
[03:17:05] <jmkasunich> so you have to push the pin out the side to change the setting?
[03:17:17] <toastydeath> i have no idea, i've never used one
[03:17:29] <jmkasunich> it is clever - don't have to worry about jaw lift
[03:17:56] <jmkasunich> you can see the pin on mine is a bit bent - its mild steel, not a hardened dowel pin
[03:18:01] <toastydeath> haha, i noticed that
[03:18:02] <jmkasunich> I've cranked on it pretty good
[03:18:03] <fenn> jmkasunich: are the holes on either side of the vise staggered?
[03:18:08] <toastydeath> i was like, "wow he's really getting that thing down"
[03:18:18] <jmkasunich> fenn: no, they go all the way thru
[03:18:33] <toastydeath> jmkasunich: i THINK, on ours, you crank the pin most of the way out
[03:18:39] <toastydeath> then the jaw just slides
[03:18:40] <jmkasunich> the notches that you see in vise2.jpg are the holes
[03:18:46] <toastydeath> i've never seen one of the guys deal with any pins
[03:18:57] <jmkasunich> it came with two pins, the other pin was longer
[03:19:30] <jmkasunich> if you were doing lots of work at one setting, you'd use the long pin, so it wouldn't ever jump slots while the thing was unclamped
[03:19:56] <toastydeath> that's the nice deal with a kurt vise
[03:20:06] <jmkasunich> toastydeath: I use a long arm 6mm allen wrench, and I crank on it
[03:20:07] <toastydeath> very easy to apply a ton of torque and easy to do repetative stuff
[03:20:14] <toastydeath> we've got breaker bars
[03:20:41] <jmkasunich> one thing I like about these toolmaker vises is that the moving jaw is ground about 0.002 narrower than the fixed jaw
[03:20:55] <jmkasunich> so you can clamp it down on its side and the moving jaw will still move
[03:20:58] <toastydeath> ah
[03:21:02] <fenn> i should make one in aluminum for my gingery lathe :P
[03:21:18] <jmkasunich> lol
[03:21:25] <toastydeath> that would be exciting!
[03:21:26] <jmkasunich> don't be so fscking cheap
[03:21:35] <fenn> i dont have any blocks of steel that big
[03:21:57] <jmkasunich> enco sells a 3" for $50
[03:21:58] <toastydeath> it's hard to get a good vise without a surface grinder
[03:22:14] <toastydeath> lots of hand work involved.
[03:22:16] <jmkasunich> its not just steel, its hardened steel, ground flat and square
[03:22:32] <jmkasunich> and the fit between the moving jaw and the bed is very good
[03:23:20] <toastydeath> the crazy thing is we used to have a creepfeed form grinder
[03:23:25] <toastydeath> so it would make the whole top of the vise, slot and all
[03:23:27] <toastydeath> in one pass
[03:23:40] <toastydeath> no prior machining
[03:23:48] <toastydeath> that, quite frankly, is sick
[03:23:54] <toastydeath> i never got to see it, i've just heard the stories
[03:23:59] <toastydeath> of the whack stuff they use to have, and sold
[03:24:49] <toastydeath> i've never even seen videos of that
[03:25:24] <jmkasunich> btw, if anyone is considering buying a toolmakers vise, don't get the one in the first pic fenn posted
[03:25:34] <jmkasunich> you can only clamp it down from the ends
[03:25:52] <jmkasunich> the 2nd one, and mine, have slots on all four sides to allow them to be clamped down
[03:27:15] <toastydeath> nice
[03:27:25] <toastydeath> i'd grind slots on the sides
[03:27:28] <jmkasunich> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=306&PMITEM=428-9010
[03:27:33] <jmkasunich> ^^ enco has both kinds
[03:27:36] <toastydeath> if that ever happened to me
[03:27:42] <toastydeath> cuss for a few minutes then stick it on the grinder
[03:27:43] <jmkasunich> style A and B
[03:27:47] <jmkasunich> B is better
[03:28:13] <Jymmm> It's got a screw RIGHT THERE!!!
[03:28:25] <fenn> thats not a screw its a bolt
[03:28:33] <Jymmm> fenn: screw you!
[03:28:41] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: compare the ones in the top left pic to the one on the top right
[03:28:50] <jmkasunich> the right one has a traditional screw
[03:28:55] <jmkasunich> and its jaw can lift
[03:29:33] <jmkasunich> in fact, depending on how hard you crank it, the right one will bend the entire body
[03:29:35] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: I understood, was trying to be funny till fenn mucked it all up =)
[03:29:53] <fenn> the definition of screw vs bolt seems rather nebulous to me
[03:29:58] <Jymmm> fenn: Sorry, I meant BOLT YOU!
[03:30:06] <fenn> nobody says "acme leadbolts"
[03:30:12] <fenn> even though they have a nut
[03:30:39] <toastydeath> i BELIEVE, and this is secondhand, that a bolt has no self-piloting ability except a lag bolt
[03:31:04] <toastydeath> and a screw can refer either to the form itself, or a self-piloting fastening device
[03:31:06] <Jymmm> bolt defined: a screw that screws into a nut to form a fastener
[03:31:06] <fenn> neither does a machine screw
[03:31:06] <toastydeath> not sure how true that is
[03:31:21] <toastydeath> and Jymmm beats us all!
[03:31:29] <Jymmm> toastydeath: nah, google
[03:31:41] <toastydeath> i don't think "leadscrew" is what MOST people think of
[03:31:44] <toastydeath> when someone says "screw"
[03:32:06] <fenn> Screws are defined as headed, externally-threaded fasteners that do not meet the above definition of bolts.
[03:32:20] <fenn> Bolts are defined as headed fasteners having external threads that meet an exacting, uniform bolt thread specification
[03:32:30] <fenn> a lie is a lie
[03:32:31] <Jymmm> echo echo
[03:33:30] <Jymmm> try Budd Dry
[03:35:18] <Jymmm> fenn is this where you copied that from? http://euler9.tripod.com/bolt-database/boltdef.html
[03:35:45] <fenn> ya
[03:36:18] <fenn> that guy sure thinks he's hot shit
[03:36:34] <Jymmm> fenn: He is, he's on tripod
[03:36:46] <toastydeath> i should get a tripod webpage
[03:37:08] <fenn> no, you shouldnt
[03:37:11] <toastydeath> =(
[03:37:14] <Jymmm> toastydeath: You should, then it'll only take 45 seconds to load yourwebsite
[03:37:30] <fenn> and your viewers will be ruthlessly spammed with popup windows
[03:37:45] <toastydeath> yeah but i want to be hot shit =(
[03:37:56] <toastydeath> I MUST FOLLOW MY DREAMS
[03:38:11] <Jymmm> toastydeath: Just settle for being a dipshit instead.
[03:38:15] <toastydeath> =((
[03:38:20] <Jymmm> <rim shot>
[03:38:52] <Jymmm> I love how all links in his ref library are so far all 404's
[03:39:06] <toastydeath> hahahaha
[03:39:18] <Jymmm> wait a sec... I find 1 live so far...
[03:39:53] <toastydeath> fancy!
[03:40:45] <Jymmm> not one I'd actually use mind oyu
[03:40:56] <toastydeath> oh =(
[03:41:01] <Jymmm> ok, up to 4 404's
[03:41:15] <Jymmm> 5
[03:41:28] <Jymmm> 6
[03:43:26] <toastydeath> i want to make a manufacturing page
[03:43:43] <toastydeath> with things nobody agrees with and generates lots of angry e-mail
[03:43:55] <toastydeath> and by "lots" i mean the one old guy who visits my page once a month
[03:45:05] <toastydeath> that would be the life.
[03:45:11] <toastydeath> cruise control for cool.
[04:05:44] <toastydeath> i can't wait for the new Fallout
[04:05:54] <toastydeath> i am kind of afraid since bethesda is doing it
[04:08:15] <fenn> i read an article about it and was intrigued
[04:08:49] <Skullworks-PGAB> * Skullworks-PGAB wants a good Kennedy era fallout shelter - well stocked of course.
[04:09:28] <toastydeath> i like that we are getting a Fallout 3
[04:09:53] <toastydeath> but at the same time i am afraid that bethesda will try to turn it into something ridiculous
[04:10:02] <toastydeath> i like the moral ambiguity of the games.
[04:10:05] <fenn> why do you think bethesda will mess it up?
[04:10:30] <toastydeath> i think they have a different approach to games that wouldn't mesh well with fallout
[04:10:53] <toastydeath> i am afraid of getting an oblivion-ized version of fallout
[04:12:06] <toastydeath> i don't know if oblivion will get the same moral ambiguity that was so excellent
[04:12:30] <toastydeath> er, fallout
[04:14:05] <toastydeath> i just haven't seen the kind of attitude from bethesda games, i guess.
[04:15:21] <toastydeath> even back with games like Descent, interplay kind of had that despair and horror feel
[04:19:13] <fenn> in descent you were shooting multi-colored blobs for no particular purpose
[04:19:26] <fenn> i wouldnt really call it moral ambiguity
[04:19:56] <toastydeath> no, but it was scarier
[04:19:59] <toastydeath> than other games
[04:20:23] <toastydeath> you don't have any sense of any amiguity in any bethesda game
[04:20:25] <fenn> the blobs did look kinda mean
[04:21:16] <toastydeath> whereas, by contrast, interplay had to take certain things out of Fallout because doing the wrong thing was "right":
[04:21:22] <toastydeath> i dunno man
[04:21:45] <fenn> i never played fallout.. sorry
[04:21:56] <toastydeath> ah
[04:28:23] <ds2> any one got a guess as to how fine of a mesh are coffee filters?
[04:36:15] <fenn> i'd say 100 micron (about 100 mesh)
[04:36:50] <toastydeath> how do you even measure that?
[04:36:54] <toastydeath> could you do an airflow test
[04:37:05] <fenn> count the lines per inch
[04:37:07] <toastydeath> hmm
[04:37:12] <toastydeath> that would suck so bad
[04:37:17] <fenn> estimate percent coverage by eye
[04:37:30] <fenn> you dont have to count a whole inch
[05:02:45] <ds2> Hmmmm
[05:03:02] <ds2> 1micro == 1um, right?
[05:03:03] <ds2> micron
[05:03:10] <fenn> yup
[05:03:25] <ds2> * ds2 goes off and figures that number in reasonable units
[05:04:28] <ds2> oh about 4thou
[05:04:55] <ds2> that might work as a PCB mill dust collection filter
[05:05:08] <fenn> why not use a real air filter?
[05:05:37] <ds2> cuz I don't know where to find them
[05:06:04] <fenn> auto parts store
[05:06:21] <ds2> aren't those huge?
[05:06:30] <fenn> you can get mini filters for various things
[05:06:34] <fenn> fuel filter for example
[05:06:40] <ds2> I am thinking of a 0.5" diameter disc
[05:06:47] <fenn> oh
[05:06:56] <fenn> that's small
[05:06:59] <fenn> why so small?
[05:07:01] <ds2> Oh those... didn't think of those for use as an air filter
[05:07:14] <ds2> cuz I got some tiny "vaccum" pumps
[05:07:32] <ds2> figure I'll attach the out of those to an inline filter and then run the end to the spindle next to the bit
[05:07:52] <ds2> the pumps were designed for 2AA power so it isn't that strong
[05:08:11] <fenn> i doubt it will have enough flow
[05:08:31] <ds2> even if I am just using 1/4" (measured) line?
[05:08:47] <fenn> to suck up the dust i mean
[05:08:55] <ds2> Hmmm
[05:09:42] <ds2> the pumps are were cheap enough ($1 each) so it can't hurt too much to try it
[06:11:53] <fenn> wow this is amazing: http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/resynthesizer
[10:00:52] <anonimasu> toastydeath: ^_^
[10:01:00] <anonimasu> toastydeath: that would rock
[11:50:12] <anonimasu> :)
[12:21:44] <jepler> the "propeller" chip looks very interesting for hardware step generation. For instance, it has 2 "counter modules" in each of its 8 processors; the "counter module" can perform a 'conditional 32 bit accumulation of its FRQ register into its PHS register on every clock cycle' (up to 80MHz)
[12:24:02] <jepler> there is now a GPL assembler for it, and a .py program for uploading (not sure of the license) so you can develop for it with free tools
[12:24:37] <alex_joni> propeller?
[12:25:15] <skunkworks_> * skunkworks_ was thinking the same thing.
[12:27:07] <jepler> alex_joni: it's a new-ish chip from the people who make the "basic stamp"
[12:27:12] <jepler> #
[12:27:15] <jepler> http://www.parallax.com/propeller/
[12:29:18] <alex_joni> coo
[12:34:05] <skunkworks_> SO - the car stops moving when the front left bottom ball joint strips..
[12:34:45] <jepler> skunkworks_: uh oh that doesn't sound good
[12:34:51] <jepler> enjoy doing car repairs?
[12:35:11] <skunkworks_> Oh - this I think is going to be done at a shop. (the guy who came and got it.)
[12:35:55] <skunkworks_> We really lucked out - it happened just pulling away from a stoplight. we managed to come to a stop perfectly between the 2 lanes of a divided highway.
[12:36:13] <skunkworks_> didn't even block the turn lanes..
[12:36:30] <skunkworks_> Lucky it didn't happen at 70mph
[12:37:00] <jepler> yeah
[12:38:34] <skunkworks_> About All I saw was the nut missing on the bottom ball joint and the axle pulled out of the transmission. hopefully it didn't screw up the transmission
[12:39:10] <skunkworks_> all and all - an exciting end to the weekend ;)
[12:58:10] <jepler> not a lot of I/Os on the "propeller" chip, though -- only 18 left after you give up 12 for EPP communication and 2 for programming from external EEPROM.
[12:58:33] <alex_joni> 18 is ok for 6 x step/dir + aux
[13:01:36] <jepler> you quickly use up the 18 pins: estop in, all home, all limit, spindle, coolant, amp enable, 6xstep+direction
[13:02:33] <alex_joni> yup, I know..
[13:02:39] <alex_joni> but maybe you can mux them
[13:03:36] <anonimasu> .)
[13:05:01] <anonimasu> jepler: 6x axes :)
[13:05:09] <anonimasu> *yawns*
[13:07:00] <jepler> well it's not a project I'm going to do
[13:07:07] <jepler> I have another step generator to finish & debug
[16:20:55] <anonimasu> hi
[16:30:38] <anonimasu> does anyone have a spec on the contact of a ball gripper in a drawbar?
[18:32:32] <cradek> argh, on my first cnczone post it says "Warning: strpos(): Empty delimiter. in /global.php(356) : eval()'d code on line 42" and the post was discarded
[18:33:10] <cradek> Discuss Enhanced Machine Controlers here!
[18:33:26] <cradek> whoever runs it can't spell either.
[18:40:42] <alex_joni> cradek: lol
[18:40:50] <alex_joni> bet you freaked out the spellchecker..
[18:41:14] <alex_joni> it's simply not used to posts where it can't report any errors :))
[18:41:22] <cradek> ha
[18:42:03] <cradek> I had to give my birthdate to sign up. I guess they want to send me a present.
[18:42:59] <cradek> hmm, maybe I broke it by not using any smiley icons
[18:43:14] <alex_joni> oh-oh
[18:43:15] <cradek> what I want is that dancing banana with sunglasses
[18:43:24] <alex_joni> you're in deep trouble..
[18:43:31] <alex_joni> no spelling errors AND no smileys
[18:43:33] <cradek> I sure hate web forums
[18:43:43] <alex_joni> that's a HIGHLY suspicious post
[18:43:47] <cradek> now I can't say I didn't try.
[18:44:00] <alex_joni> maybe they'll send secret services to investigate you :P
[18:45:52] <alex_joni> nice panels
[18:46:08] <alex_joni> cradek: seen the link?
[18:47:39] <cradek> neat
[18:47:58] <alex_joni> except some of the GUI's :D
[18:49:44] <jepler> what link?
[18:50:13] <jepler> oh, in e-mail
[18:50:16] <alex_joni> http://www.thewarfields.com/cnccookbook/MTCNCPanels.htm
[18:50:37] <skunkworks_> lots of mach
[18:51:28] <skunkworks_> cradek: you made a post on cnczone?
[18:51:37] <cradek> skunkworks_: no I guess not
[18:51:50] <skunkworks_> I was wondering.. :)
[18:52:12] <alex_joni> he tried though
[18:52:24] <alex_joni> cradek: bet you're using an incompatible OS
[18:52:44] <skunkworks_> I bet.. although I have posted from ubuntu with no problems
[18:52:55] <alex_joni> skunkworks_: that was intended as a joke
[18:53:29] <skunkworks_> I know - but I bet that maybe a bit more true than you would like.
[18:53:38] <alex_joni> eek
[18:54:03] <cradek> I was on the fence anyway. I'm not going to bother worrying about it.
[18:54:10] <alex_joni> fence?
[18:54:20] <skunkworks_> everyone on the site runs mach - ie MSWindows. ;)
[18:55:40] <alex_joni> Mumbl'es b+e*n_t forwa*rd a n d list+ene,d eager'ly.
[18:55:39] <alex_joni> By n+i*n,e o'c,lock of t,h'a t evenin g s+n,o,w l a-y d,e,e+p in t+h*e stre-ets a*n d t,h_e w*eather h a'd b.ecome bitt,er c+o,l*d_.
[18:55:56] <alex_joni> * alex_joni still doesn't get spam..
[18:56:42] <alex_joni> I mean.. I understand when they try to sell me something
[18:57:18] <alex_joni> but just sending out e-mails without any purpose..
[18:57:49] <skunkworks_> I think the ones that are just random jibberish are the ones that some moron doesn't know how to setup
[18:57:49] <cradek> alex_joni: html? attached image with the ad in it?
[18:57:57] <alex_joni> cradek: nope... text
[18:58:26] <skunkworks_> The new thing is pdf adds for penny stocks. get a ton of them.
[18:58:29] <skunkworks_> ads
[19:00:26] <skunkworks_> :( cradek (0 Posts),
[19:01:12] <alex_joni> 21:29 < cradek> argh, on my first cnczone post it says "Warning: strpos():
[19:01:13] <alex_joni> Empty delimiter. in /global.php(356) : eval()'d code on line
[19:01:13] <alex_joni> 42" and the post was discarded
[19:01:37] <toastydeath> fff
[19:01:42] <skunkworks_> jeez - 79 people have registered today..
[19:03:20] <toastydeath> ?
[19:04:24] <skunkworks_> cnczone
[19:07:59] <toastydeath> hawtness?
[19:08:16] <toastydeath> anonimasu:
[19:08:22] <toastydeath> i checked the prices of our bearings
[19:08:26] <toastydeath> they're um
[19:08:32] <toastydeath> a little out of the range you gave me
[19:09:13] <toastydeath> a 1.5" thrust/radial bearing unit is $775
[19:09:24] <toastydeath> and you'd need two of those to make a spindle
[19:19:02] <anonimasu> toastydeath: I cant help but be curious on the price of the material
[19:23:28] <toastydeath> not that expensive, but i didn't ask
[19:23:40] <toastydeath> it's incredibly labor intensive
[19:23:44] <toastydeath> which is like, almost all of our cost
[19:24:25] <toastydeath> it's aluminum and graphite.
[19:24:36] <anonimasu> hm ok
[19:24:41] <toastydeath> there's honing and lapping
[19:24:43] <toastydeath> and other crap
[19:24:59] <toastydeath> initial sealing, flow testing
[19:25:03] <toastydeath> then you go back and do it all over again
[19:25:07] <toastydeath> until the bearing is right
[19:25:15] <anonimasu> :)
[19:25:30] <toastydeath> takes a couple months to make a bearing
[19:25:57] <toastydeath> our cheapest bearing is like a 15mm bushing
[19:26:00] <toastydeath> 215 bucks
[19:26:07] <anonimasu> heh
[19:26:21] <toastydeath> most expensive is the linear slides
[19:26:36] <anonimasu> my dog's killing a plush shark.
[19:26:38] <anonimasu> yep
[19:26:46] <toastydeath> ha
[19:26:54] <anonimasu> I need to look into making thoose someday
[19:27:09] <anonimasu> though that requires a source for graphite
[19:27:48] <anonimasu> $700 is steep for a bearing
[19:27:49] <anonimasu> :)
[19:28:18] <toastydeath> hahaha
[19:28:27] <toastydeath> i guess considering the folks who buy these
[19:28:37] <toastydeath> they're like "we'll take a hundred!"
[19:28:47] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:28:58] <toastydeath> they're popular with semiconductor manufacturers
[19:29:16] <anonimasu> I wonder about making hydrostatic ones
[19:29:29] <toastydeath> hydrostatic is a little harder to make
[19:30:00] <toastydeath> because the restriction oriface is very sensitive
[19:30:11] <toastydeath> to teeny changes in diameter
[19:30:20] <anonimasu> well, the restriction you buy..
[19:30:29] <anonimasu> drill & tap m5..
[19:30:35] <anonimasu> and spec 0.127mm hole or whatever you want..
[19:30:42] <toastydeath> i'm pretty sure you have to tune the restrictor just like we tune the graphite
[19:30:49] <toastydeath> could be wrong though
[19:30:56] <anonimasu> well, there are lots of sizes..
[19:31:07] <toastydeath> true, you could get like a whole range in tenths
[19:31:16] <anonimasu> yep
[19:31:17] <toastydeath> like, drill bushings or something
[19:31:20] <anonimasu> they are $2 or so..
[19:31:46] <anonimasu> 2-5$
[19:31:58] <toastydeath> and the math puts you pretty close
[19:32:00] <toastydeath> to the ballpark
[19:32:12] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:32:18] <toastydeath> so you probably could measure it once, with the "ideal" then only have to buy one or two to dial it in
[19:32:24] <anonimasu> wonder what kind of precision you need
[19:32:36] <toastydeath> for which part, the flat, the pocket, or the oriface
[19:32:51] <anonimasu> the part/flat
[19:32:58] <toastydeath> lapped
[19:32:58] <anonimasu> im talking about round bearings
[19:33:20] <anonimasu> hm, lapping compound and lots of work?
[19:33:22] <toastydeath> or polished with an ID grinder, it has to be very flat and consistant
[19:33:34] <anonimasu> `/me has never worked with that
[19:33:43] <toastydeath> well, if this were a flat bearning, it wouldn't be hard
[19:33:54] <toastydeath> we can hire people off the street and get a good flat bearing
[19:34:04] <toastydeath> but a spindle journal is a lot harder
[19:34:13] <toastydeath> you'd need to practice with like, throwaway material
[19:34:41] <toastydeath> do you have access to an ID grinder of some sort?
[19:34:48] <anonimasu> not yet
[19:34:51] <toastydeath> that would probably get you pretty damn good for what you want to do
[19:34:56] <anonimasu> I'm going to build one
[19:35:19] <toastydeath> hmmm
[19:35:22] <anonimasu> I have a 27krpm motor lying around
[19:35:26] <toastydeath> using a pre-existing headstock or what
[19:35:41] <anonimasu> yeah, on the lathe I have
[19:35:45] <toastydeath> cool
[19:35:49] <ds2> 27KRPM?! how many horses?
[19:35:57] <toastydeath> .5?
[19:35:58] <toastydeath> .25?
[19:36:01] <anonimasu> yeah something like that
[19:36:05] <anonimasu> 320w
[19:36:07] <anonimasu> I think
[19:36:13] <toastydeath> that's close to .5
[19:36:37] <anonimasu> it should make a good enough grinder with a set of good bearings
[19:36:50] <toastydeath> well the headstock is almost more important for what you want to do
[19:36:55] <toastydeath> which is what's causing me concern
[19:37:21] <ds2> hmmm a 6inch wheel going at 27KRPM hmmmmm
[19:37:26] <anonimasu> ds2: internal grinding?
[19:37:31] <ds2> oh
[19:37:40] <toastydeath> we're talking like half inch, inch wheels
[19:37:47] <anonimasu> yep
[19:37:58] <ds2> you are no fun :P
[19:38:12] <toastydeath> but the hydrostatic spindle designs i've seen
[19:38:19] <anonimasu> toastydeath: I have 0.005mm of throw on the spindle now(need to re-make the spindle adapter
[19:38:24] <toastydeath> use rectangular pockets with radiused corners
[19:38:35] <toastydeath> just like a flat bearing, wrapped around the spindle
[19:38:47] <toastydeath> one on each side of the spindle
[19:38:53] <toastydeath> pressure in the center, drainage right outside
[19:39:00] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:39:14] <anonimasu> toastydeath: you mean for the pockets in the bearing?
[19:39:22] <toastydeath> well the flats, but yes
[19:39:36] <anonimasu> this is a round bearing right?
[19:39:39] <toastydeath> yep
[19:39:54] <anonimasu> btw, I've got a huydralic pump next to my machine :)
[19:40:00] <toastydeath> lol
[19:40:05] <toastydeath> what kind of filter does it gave
[19:40:07] <toastydeath> *have
[19:40:20] <toastydeath> the general spec is filtration to 1/4 of the gap
[19:40:23] <anonimasu> a few µ I cant remember..
[19:40:25] <toastydeath> or better if you can afford it
[19:40:31] <toastydeath> excellent
[19:40:38] <anonimasu> pretty standard one..
[19:40:57] <toastydeath> well if the spindle fails, and it's all scored up you'll know what the fix is
[19:41:03] <toastydeath> "better filters"
[19:41:06] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:41:19] <anonimasu> got any good ref on fluid bearings?
[19:41:25] <toastydeath> there's this book, "precision machine design" by uhhh
[19:41:28] <toastydeath> Alexander Sloccum?
[19:41:31] <toastydeath> at MIT?
[19:41:47] <toastydeath> has allllll sorts of awesome information on hydrostatic bearings, and further reading
[19:41:50] <anonimasu> I wonder if I could get it..
[19:41:56] <toastydeath> also has a lot of other precision machine design stuff
[19:42:05] <toastydeath> very, very good book to read
[19:42:16] <anonimasu> http://pergatory.mit.edu/perg/research/archive/Kotilainen/hydrobushing.htm
[19:42:18] <anonimasu> woah..
[19:42:40] <anonimasu> heh investment cast.. grind the id, be happy
[19:42:45] <toastydeath> seriously
[19:43:07] <anonimasu> though machining the stuff inside isnt impossible either
[19:43:50] <toastydeath> i don't see injection ports
[19:44:17] <toastydeath> or drain ports...
[19:44:23] <anonimasu> in the centre I think
[19:44:38] <toastydeath> i think they're leaving it out on purpose
[19:45:12] <anonimasu> threhttp://pergatory.mit.edu/perg/awards/turbotool.gif
[19:45:28] <anonimasu> http://images.google.se/imgres?imgurl=http://pergatory.mit.edu/perg/awards/turbotool.gif&imgrefurl=http://pergatory.mit.edu/perg/awards/TURBOTOO.html&h=639&w=914&sz=31&hl=sv&start=1&um=1&tbnid=4LeAIXPU51X3FM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=147&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dturbotool%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dsv%26sa%3DN
[19:47:19] <toastydeath> hahaha, that's crazy looking
[19:47:24] <anonimasu> http://pergatory.mit.edu/2.75/Special%20Lectures/Hydrostatics.pdf
[19:47:35] <anonimasu> toastydeath: if I ever get good enough machines I'm going to try it..
[19:48:07] <toastydeath> hey, slocum
[19:48:11] <toastydeath> that's the guy who wrote the book
[19:48:15] <toastydeath> your pdf, that's how you spell his name
[19:48:19] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:48:26] <anonimasu> I know I've read stuff off him before
[19:48:37] <toastydeath> cool
[19:49:02] <toastydeath> that's a neat pdf
[19:49:18] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:49:23] <anonimasu> look at page 22
[19:50:08] <anonimasu> or page 26
[19:50:11] <anonimasu> even better
[19:50:31] <toastydeath> that concerns me though, looking at the accuricies
[19:50:42] <toastydeath> i wonder if this new design is inexpensive but somewhat inaccurate compared to other bearings
[19:50:48] <anonimasu> nope..
[19:50:49] <toastydeath> hydrostatic/aerostatic
[19:51:01] <anonimasu> page 24..
[19:51:08] <toastydeath> i'm on 11
[19:51:10] <anonimasu> well, I dont know specs for other ones
[19:51:21] <anonimasu> 10krpm 10µin
[19:51:27] <anonimasu> 10krpm 67µin
[19:51:29] <anonimasu> sorry
[19:51:32] <anonimasu> runout
[19:52:15] <toastydeath> cool
[19:52:26] <toastydeath> our spindles are a little more accurate
[19:52:29] <toastydeath> on the lathes at work
[19:52:39] <toastydeath> but they're air bearings, so that's not a fair comparison at all
[19:52:49] <toastydeath> the 10k rpm thing
[19:52:51] <toastydeath> is pretty impressive
[19:52:59] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:53:00] <toastydeath> for a hydrostatic bearing
[19:53:12] <anonimasu> is the clearance doable you think?
[19:53:32] <toastydeath> what do you mean
[19:53:39] <anonimasu> for the id of it..
[19:53:41] <anonimasu> clearance..
[19:53:46] <anonimasu> the gap..
[19:53:50] <toastydeath> i think you'd need a real good headstock if you did it by grinding
[19:54:17] <toastydeath> like, a measured headstock so you know you could do it
[19:54:22] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:54:29] <anonimasu> * anonimasu has no idea how little that is..
[19:54:30] <toastydeath> lapping would definately do it
[19:54:39] <anonimasu> what's involved in lapping?
[19:54:39] <toastydeath> the gap is pretty big compared to air bearings
[19:54:48] <anonimasu> sorry im kind of noob :P
[19:54:52] <toastydeath> no problem dude
[19:55:02] <toastydeath> i'm not really any kind of expert
[19:55:10] <toastydeath> but lapping is a soft material charged with abrasive
[19:55:16] <anonimasu> I dont think im going to make them, but I'd love to try it out
[19:55:17] <toastydeath> like, cast iron with aluminum oxide or diamond
[19:55:23] <anonimasu> I have lapping compound
[19:55:25] <toastydeath> made in whatever shape
[19:55:35] <toastydeath> and you grind it away like that
[19:55:41] <toastydeath> flat surfaces, you make an iron surface plate
[19:55:46] <toastydeath> as flat as you can get it/scraped
[19:55:55] <toastydeath> or buy a lapping plate
[19:55:58] <anonimasu> hm, that's hard for a round surface
[19:56:02] <toastydeath> yep
[19:56:03] <toastydeath> exactly
[19:56:05] <anonimasu> surface plate?
[19:56:11] <toastydeath> do you have a surface plate?
[19:56:16] <anonimasu> yes
[19:56:20] <anonimasu> a granite one
[19:56:21] <toastydeath> cast iron surface plate
[19:56:26] <toastydeath> the granite won't hold the compound
[19:56:45] <toastydeath> but you rub it in with some other bit of metal, to embed the crap in the plate
[19:56:51] <anonimasu> yeah but lapping a circular bearing?
[19:56:53] <toastydeath> yep
[19:56:58] <toastydeath> you have to make a round lap.
[19:57:01] <anonimasu> ah.
[19:57:15] <toastydeath> and that sometimes entails scraping/lapping the lap itself
[19:57:36] <anonimasu> I see
[19:57:53] <toastydeath> and you still have to have the same stuff for measuring the spindle
[19:58:03] <toastydeath> to make sure you didn't get a bellmouthed bearing pad
[19:58:05] <toastydeath> et cetera
[19:58:17] <anonimasu> how big is 20µm..
[19:58:23] <toastydeath> looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
[19:58:29] <anonimasu> small ;)
[19:58:34] <toastydeath> oh, not microinches
[19:58:38] <toastydeath> i have to convert it hold on
[19:58:39] <anonimasu> 0.02 ?
[19:58:45] <anonimasu> µm
[19:58:50] <JymmmEMC> u
[19:58:59] <anonimasu> it's um..
[19:58:59] <toastydeath> it's not that bad
[19:59:11] <anonimasu> 0.00x?
[19:59:16] <toastydeath> i think? i don't know man
[19:59:21] <toastydeath> .02
[19:59:26] <toastydeath> says google calc
[19:59:30] <toastydeath> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=ka0&q=20+micrometers+to+mm&btnG=Search
[19:59:33] <anonimasu> 0.2mm ?
[19:59:38] <toastydeath> .02 mm
[19:59:47] <anonimasu> oh..
[19:59:49] <anonimasu> that's pretty big..
[19:59:55] <toastydeath> yeah, for a bearing surface that's easy
[19:59:57] <cradek> % units 20micrometers inches
[20:00:00] <toastydeath> but you need to hold it a very constant size
[20:00:02] <cradek> * 0.00078740157
[20:00:07] <toastydeath> it's not like you can have a wavy surface
[20:00:12] <anonimasu> yeah
[20:00:54] <toastydeath> and a grinder would have to be darn good, because grinders tend to produce lobed profiles
[20:01:04] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[20:01:06] <toastydeath> and that will cause the spindle to crash under load
[20:01:13] <anonimasu> lapping is the easiest way.. probably
[20:01:17] <anonimasu> still work intensive
[20:01:20] <toastydeath> the easiest of the hardest ways, yes
[20:01:24] <toastydeath> unfortunately.
[20:01:48] <toastydeath> you'll need some graph paper, and an electronic test indicator
[20:01:51] <toastydeath> =/
[20:02:15] <JymmmEMC> Spam #13 from Kate, Spam #24 from Ashley (unrelated)
[20:02:23] <JymmmEMC> s/24/14/
[20:02:47] <toastydeath> anonimasu: to check radial error on a spindle, you chuck up a ball bearing very lightly
[20:02:47] <anonimasu> toastydeath: that's damn hard to do :)
[20:02:56] <toastydeath> mark the spindle housing, the spindle, and the ball
[20:02:59] <toastydeath> call that zero
[20:03:08] <toastydeath> line em' all up, and put the indicator on the ball on zero
[20:03:22] <toastydeath> every couple degrees, record the indicator reading
[20:03:22] <anonimasu> TIR.. right?
[20:03:25] <toastydeath> nar
[20:03:27] <toastydeath> full spindle profile
[20:03:32] <anonimasu> ah ok
[20:03:43] <toastydeath> go around 360
[20:03:46] <toastydeath> get your first graph
[20:04:08] <toastydeath> then, line the spindle 0 with the housing 0, but spin the ball around 180 degrees
[20:04:16] <toastydeath> put your indicator on the ball 0
[20:04:29] <toastydeath> take your second reading, except invert the answer
[20:04:47] <toastydeath> this will subtract any error in the ball, and give you the true spindle error
[20:04:57] <toastydeath> do this 30 or 40 times, and you can get a profile of your spindle.
[20:05:12] <toastydeath> (or just once =) )
[20:05:28] <anonimasu> lol
[20:05:44] <toastydeath> doing it once will give you the synchronous error of the spindle
[20:05:45] <anonimasu> just a question how big is the allowable error ;=)
[20:05:57] <toastydeath> doing it a bunch will give you the asynchronous error
[20:06:04] <toastydeath> that's a great question, slocum's book answers it
[20:06:06] <toastydeath> i believe
[20:06:11] <anonimasu> haha..
[20:06:21] <toastydeath> i can tell you how to measure it, but not what numbers you are looking for =((
[20:06:25] <anonimasu> from that I've gathered on forums 0.01 is ok..
[20:06:31] <anonimasu> mm
[20:06:33] <toastydeath> i would seriously gather from slocum
[20:06:39] <toastydeath> rather than forums
[20:07:02] <toastydeath> because doing it wrong would be a time-intensive and possibly dangerous mistake
[20:07:12] <anonimasu> this is with ball bearings btw..
[20:07:15] <toastydeath> oh
[20:07:15] <anonimasu> normal spindles..
[20:07:31] <anonimasu> :)
[20:07:41] <toastydeath> i don't know where the line is for "causes error" versus "spindle failure" is
[20:07:50] <toastydeath> subtract one "is" from that sentence
[20:08:03] <anonimasu> oh there isnt a line.. you can machine with a crooked spindle..
[20:08:08] <toastydeath> i recall slocum saying that the tolerances affect load capacity
[20:08:10] <toastydeath> in addition to accuracy
[20:08:13] <anonimasu> or well, throwing around.. it just eats tooling..
[20:08:20] <anonimasu> and affects surface finish..
[20:08:21] <toastydeath> so the crappier the spindle is, the less accurate and more dangerous it will be
[20:08:36] <toastydeath> i, personally, am quite afraid of making my first spindle
[20:08:42] <toastydeath> in years time
[20:08:53] <anonimasu> I made a spindle..
[20:08:53] <anonimasu> it works :)
[20:09:00] <toastydeath> haha, i mean hydrostatic =)
[20:09:01] <anonimasu> oh yeah
[20:09:16] <anonimasu> for my next one I'm going to grind the shafts.. and bearing seats
[20:09:22] <anonimasu> hence why I need a grinder..
[20:09:38] <toastydeath> you should really invest in an electronic indicator
[20:09:49] <toastydeath> because then you'll be able to say "my designs are improving"
[20:09:55] <anonimasu> what im perplexed by is what to measure against..
[20:10:02] <anonimasu> 0.01? or 0.001 or 0.0001
[20:10:06] <anonimasu> mm
[20:10:22] <toastydeath> that's what's awesome about electronic indicators, not the crappy "numeric" ones
[20:10:27] <toastydeath> but like, the analog amp ones
[20:10:37] <toastydeath> you can select .01, .001, and .0001 all on one instrument
[20:10:50] <toastydeath> just keep refining it until you are satisifed with your resolution
[20:11:30] <toastydeath> and if you get a digital one, you can just use an oscilloscope as the indicator dial
[20:11:40] <toastydeath> because the digital ones still have an analog out in most cases
[20:11:41] <anonimasu> well, it's a $ issue..
[20:11:44] <toastydeath> yar =((
[20:11:48] <toastydeath> i'm looking at buying one used
[20:12:14] <CIA-24> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/components/timedelta.comp: new component to perform a test similar to rtai 'latency'
[20:12:21] <anonimasu> I dont have a problem with surface finishes and stuff..
[20:12:45] <toastydeath> right but that's not an indicator of trueness
[20:13:01] <toastydeath> just like a funhouse mirror
[20:13:09] <toastydeath> can have a .1 Ra
[20:13:12] <CIA-24> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/scripts/latency-test: 'graphical' version of the rtai latency test.
[20:13:13] <toastydeath> but the surface isn't true
[20:13:35] <anonimasu> im below >0.01mm of runout.. atleast..
[20:14:04] <toastydeath> are you sure?
[20:14:07] <anonimasu> yeah
[20:14:11] <toastydeath> you can't check it with a micrometer.
[20:14:23] <toastydeath> the only way to check lobed surfaces is with an indicator
[20:14:25] <toastydeath> and a spindle
[20:15:09] <anonimasu> dial gauge?
[20:15:12] <toastydeath> because on a lobed surface, the diameter is constant no matter where you check the diameter from
[20:15:22] <toastydeath> but the diameter drifts "in and out"
[20:15:27] <anonimasu> is that what you mran?
[20:15:28] <anonimasu> mean?
[20:15:30] <toastydeath> ?
[20:15:34] <anonimasu> dial..
[20:15:36] <toastydeath> kind of like a dial gauge
[20:15:52] <toastydeath> if you have a real accurate dial gauge, then yeah
[20:15:59] <anonimasu> I've got a good dial gauge(actually I have several) but I have a mitutuyo one
[20:16:22] <toastydeath> what range?
[20:16:39] <anonimasu> 0.01mm between increments
[20:16:55] <toastydeath> hmm
[20:17:05] <toastydeath> that's why i always suggest a digital
[20:17:14] <toastydeath> because that's only going to show the worst lobing
[20:17:33] <toastydeath> but it may be perfect if it turns out that the bearings don't care how lobed the surface is
[20:17:39] <anonimasu> heh
[20:17:41] <toastydeath> and you won't have to measure it at all.
[20:18:50] <toastydeath> it will depend on what the bearing texts say on the matter
[20:19:47] <toastydeath> i know how to get it measured, i don't necessarily know what the numbers need to be
[20:20:04] <anonimasu> im trying to find a price.. for a digital one
[20:20:06] <toastydeath> that is going to take many more years of school =(
[20:20:15] <JymmmEMC> digital what?
[20:20:23] <toastydeath> test indicator
[20:20:43] <toastydeath> anonimasu: if i show you this ebay thing i want to buy are you going to gank it =(
[20:20:50] <toastydeath> i will show you what i am talking about
[20:20:53] <JymmmEMC> http://www.chicagobrand.com/Electronic%20Indicator.htm
[20:21:13] <anonimasu> where's the price?
[20:21:24] <JymmmEMC> anonimasu: your local tool shop
[20:21:30] <toastydeath> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250150443402&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=015
[20:21:48] <toastydeath> that would be perfect for everything i do, like, ever
[20:21:57] <anonimasu> nice price
[20:22:01] <toastydeath> seriously
[20:22:09] <toastydeath> gotta wait till i pay for the semester before i can get it =(
[20:22:29] <anonimasu> they are pretty cheap
[20:22:36] <toastydeath> though i have to ask work if they'll let me borrow/buy one of their old ones
[20:22:41] <anonimasu> err though only down to 0.01mm
[20:22:59] <anonimasu> analog ones cost as much down to 0.001mm
[20:23:08] <anonimasu> ack..
[20:23:18] <toastydeath> that's in inches
[20:23:21] <anonimasu> +/- 0.050x 0.001
[20:23:34] <anonimasu> fsck that.
[20:23:36] <toastydeath> ?
[20:23:39] <anonimasu> that's like a hair away...
[20:24:00] <toastydeath> analog ones go down to .0002 mm...
[20:24:11] <anonimasu> toastydeath: normal ones..
[20:24:24] <JymmmEMC> anonimasu: ChicagoBrand is the cheap stuff, not bad, but cheap.
[20:24:48] <anonimasu> JymmmEMC: mitutoyo.. is what I'd like.. 0.001mm
[20:24:50] <toastydeath> i guess i'm advocating a real, but used, probe head and amp, not like, a digital indicator
[20:25:00] <toastydeath> there are both digital and analog probe heads
[20:25:10] <toastydeath> whatever you feel like using or can find
[20:25:13] <JymmmEMC> anonimasu: np, you just mentioned price being an issue =)
[20:25:41] <anonimasu> JymmmEMC: it is if it ends up being $500
[20:25:42] <anonimasu> :p
[20:25:46] <toastydeath> hahaha
[20:26:00] <JymmmEMC> anonimasu: I swear I wish I could get/find/beg/borrow/steal an optical one
[20:26:20] <anonimasu> JymmmEMC: :P
[20:26:36] <JymmmEMC> anonimasu: .005 micron resolution
[20:26:41] <anonimasu> I dont mind spending money on stuff that I really need, but for what I do 0.01mm is adequate..
[20:26:50] <anonimasu> I'd measure less then it once per year..
[20:27:01] <toastydeath> very good point
[20:27:31] <anonimasu> toastydeath: I guess the key phrase is..
[20:27:36] <anonimasu> how good is good enough..
[20:27:44] <toastydeath> yep
[20:28:12] <JymmmEMC> Heh, That's what I said about the IR Temp gun I bought... Now I use the thing all the time.
[20:28:25] <anonimasu> less then 0.01mm a dm away from the spindle nose is probably what's acceptable..
[20:28:39] <anonimasu> http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCBlogMar2007.htm
[20:28:44] <anonimasu> laps :)
[20:29:42] <toastydeath> loading
[20:29:53] <anonimasu> http://metalworking.com/dropbox/_2002_retired_files/copper_laps.pdf
[20:30:48] <toastydeath> those are very similar, ablit less refied, but same in principle, to the ones moore used
[20:30:57] <toastydeath> on their spindles
[20:31:36] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[20:32:13] <toastydeath> i wonder if i can find any books on lapping
[20:32:32] <anonimasu> hm
[20:32:46] <anonimasu> * anonimasu sighs
[20:33:06] <anonimasu> :)
[20:33:11] <anonimasu> µ-insanity
[20:34:25] <anonimasu> toastydeath: this is interesting
[20:35:10] <toastydeath> ?
[20:35:20] <toastydeath> u's?
[20:35:25] <anonimasu> precision making stuff
[20:35:31] <toastydeath> that's why i love it
[20:35:42] <toastydeath> with the right indicator, everything looks like a drunken sawtooth
[20:35:54] <toastydeath> how do you compensate for that?
[20:35:56] <anonimasu> love/hate right?
[20:35:56] <toastydeath> awesome stuff.
[20:36:04] <toastydeath> i guess!
[20:36:33] <toastydeath> i kind of like making the square peg fall into the round hole, and it just so happens that the square pegs and round holes are at millionths these days
[20:36:54] <anonimasu> hehe
[20:37:02] <toastydeath> not any particular desire to see things perfect
[20:37:10] <anonimasu> im quite happy if my parts are around 0.01+/-
[20:37:11] <anonimasu> mm
[20:37:21] <toastydeath> just that it's harder to line up two holes that have six or seven different numeric centers
[20:37:30] <toastydeath> which centers do i want to use, how do i want to measure them
[20:37:33] <toastydeath> that's the fun part
[20:37:33] <anonimasu> :)
[20:37:59] <anonimasu> I mean if my neighbour slams their door hard my whole house moves by 0.001.. :p
[20:38:02] <toastydeath> hahaha
[20:38:14] <toastydeath> if you TALK your house moves by .001 =)
[20:38:16] <toastydeath> mm, that is
[20:38:25] <anonimasu> haha yeah
[20:38:36] <anonimasu> that why im wondering what's acceptable..
[20:38:41] <toastydeath> yar
[20:38:55] <anonimasu> how far can you go without temperature compensation?
[20:39:02] <toastydeath> that's the point i have to go figure out who has the PhD in bearingology, and look at what they say is acceptable
[20:39:10] <toastydeath> not very far
[20:39:12] <toastydeath> .0001
[20:39:14] <JymmmEMC> Hmmmmmm.... http://www.cnccookbook.com/img/OthersProjects/BossXAxis2.jpg
[20:39:17] <toastydeath> is rough
[20:39:21] <toastydeath> inches, that is
[20:39:20] <anonimasu> toastydeath: mm?
[20:39:27] <toastydeath> sorry, i will convert my numbers
[20:39:33] <anonimasu> dont bother..
[20:39:37] <toastydeath> .002 mm
[20:39:37] <anonimasu> just mark it as " when you type them ;p
[20:39:40] <toastydeath> k
[20:39:49] <anonimasu> :)
[20:39:52] <toastydeath> it's a matter of scale and envrionment, i guess
[20:39:54] <anonimasu> and I'll start adding mm ;)
[20:40:01] <toastydeath> hey, deal!
[20:40:06] <toastydeath> that way i will learn metric
[20:40:22] <anonimasu> np
[20:40:29] <toastydeath> but machinists start to chase their tails around .0001"
[20:40:57] <anonimasu> yeah :)
[20:40:56] <toastydeath> some machines have .0004" of spindle growth in the Y- direction
[20:41:07] <toastydeath> or worse
[20:41:23] <toastydeath> as the whole head support grows and soaks up the spindle heat
[20:41:35] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[20:41:42] <toastydeath> but the big "thermal" problem is not actually temperature
[20:42:01] <toastydeath> it's the frequency of change in temperature that causes problems
[20:42:06] <anonimasu> the only goal for my mill is to be around 0.01mm or better..
[20:42:19] <anonimasu> and to be able to let it run for a day or two, unmonitored if I need to
[20:42:29] <anonimasu> like if I have to do some 3d contouring.. or stuff
[20:42:33] <toastydeath> yeah
[20:42:37] <toastydeath> cam!
[20:42:38] <anonimasu> that's what I love about the big mill at work..
[20:42:50] <anonimasu> I dont need to see how hot my drives are.
[20:43:10] <anonimasu> or keep lubing the ways after running a while :)
[20:43:13] <toastydeath> hahah
[20:43:22] <toastydeath> absolutely
[20:43:39] <anonimasu> precision is actually secondary in that case..
[20:43:44] <anonimasu> it's more a sanity thing
[20:43:53] <toastydeath> it usually is, most things don't NEED to be precise
[20:43:59] <anonimasu> yeah
[20:44:03] <anonimasu> that's what I figure..
[20:44:05] <toastydeath> it just takes up unnecessary time
[20:44:17] <toastydeath> once the thing falls in tolerance, leave it the hell alone
[20:44:20] <anonimasu> I still want to be under +/-0.01 when I just throw a random part from the cam progarm..
[20:44:23] <anonimasu> program..
[20:44:37] <toastydeath> nothing bugs me more than some of the dudes who try to take another .001" off to try and make a part nominal
[20:44:41] <toastydeath> and wind up scrapping the part
[20:44:46] <anonimasu> :)
[20:44:54] <toastydeath> it's in tolerance, leave it alone goddamnit
[20:45:00] <anonimasu> :)
[20:45:12] <toastydeath> also i think that's a very doable goal
[20:45:15] <toastydeath> accuracy wise
[20:45:25] <anonimasu> yeah
[20:45:31] <toastydeath> oh wait
[20:45:33] <anonimasu> I have great machine..
[20:45:36] <toastydeath> that's like half a thou
[20:45:40] <toastydeath> kind of hairy!
[20:45:45] <toastydeath> but still doable
[20:45:46] <anonimasu> 0.01mm ?
[20:45:53] <toastydeath> yeah
[20:45:56] <toastydeath> .0004
[20:45:57] <toastydeath> "
[20:46:24] <anonimasu> I do have a backslash problem now.. at about 0.02mm..
[20:46:40] <toastydeath> ballscrews?
[20:46:42] <anonimasu> but it might be that the servos are too little geared(real problem)
[20:46:52] <anonimasu> they oscilate when cutting..
[20:47:16] <toastydeath> jitter?
[20:47:17] <toastydeath> or what
[20:47:18] <anonimasu> no
[20:47:26] <anonimasu> the spindle pulls them out of position
[20:47:30] <toastydeath> ooh
[20:47:33] <anonimasu> I need 1:5 of gearing.. or so..
[20:47:39] <toastydeath> you know a quick fix for that?
[20:47:41] <anonimasu> I tried direct driving..
[20:47:43] <toastydeath> do you have gib locks
[20:47:47] <anonimasu> cnc machine..
[20:47:48] <anonimasu> less doc works.
[20:47:54] <toastydeath> ?
[20:48:03] <anonimasu> though at 2mm per cut when I should be taking 5 or 6..
[20:48:07] <anonimasu> when roughing
[20:48:09] <toastydeath> well if you can do something to apply a little drag on a noncritical part of the frame
[20:48:20] <toastydeath> brigeport cncs still use gib locks
[20:48:30] <toastydeath> you can apply a little drag, and the problem will vanish
[20:48:39] <toastydeath> you can straight climb mill on a bridgeport using the locks
[20:48:47] <toastydeath> so on a smaller machine, you'd only need a bit of pressure
[20:49:02] <anonimasu> well, im machining gearboxes soon
[20:49:10] <toastydeath> ah
[20:49:16] <anonimasu> err well belt drive boxes..
[20:49:23] <anonimasu> I just need to get matial :)
[20:49:27] <toastydeath> haha.
[20:49:52] <anonimasu> stuff's easy when you have other good machines
[20:50:04] <anonimasu> I would have killed for a cnc when I first started looking at making one
[20:50:20] <toastydeath> yeah, i imagine
[20:50:25] <toastydeath> that's a scary propisition
[20:50:32] <anonimasu> haha
[20:50:39] <anonimasu> I mean motor mounts and stuff are easy to make with one
[20:50:54] <toastydeath> but with a brace drill and set of swiss files
[20:51:00] <toastydeath> things get ugly, fast
[20:51:04] <anonimasu> yeah
[20:51:12] <anonimasu> I had a lathe and a crap crap mill
[20:51:13] <toastydeath> you may also use:
[20:51:15] <toastydeath> hockey ticket
[20:51:16] <toastydeath> milk
[20:51:19] <toastydeath> GO
[20:51:46] <toastydeath> i really want to work at Moore Special Tool now
[20:51:50] <toastydeath> speaking of making machines
[20:51:55] <toastydeath> i saw some of the crazy crap they make?
[20:51:58] <toastydeath> holy jeebas.
[20:52:04] <toastydeath> they got even crazier
[20:52:05] <anonimasu> that never seen that
[20:52:11] <toastydeath> ?
[20:52:26] <anonimasu> err I've never seem tehm
[20:52:29] <anonimasu> them
[20:52:32] <toastydeath> oh, they make machines
[20:52:36] <toastydeath> accurate machines
[20:52:49] <toastydeath> special purpose grinders, jig borers, diamond turning machines
[20:52:53] <toastydeath> diamond milling machines
[20:52:56] <toastydeath> it's like heaven
[20:53:04] <anonimasu> lol
[20:53:20] <anonimasu> http://www.mooretool.com/cusmach.html
[20:53:39] <toastydeath> yeah dude
[20:53:42] <toastydeath> serious business
[20:53:57] <toastydeath> i love the "slicing/dicing machine" title
[20:54:00] <toastydeath> IT SLICES, IT DICES
[20:54:17] <anonimasu> yeah
[20:54:51] <toastydeath> it even ties your shoes!
[20:54:56] <anonimasu> http://www.cnccookbook.com/img/OthersProjects/HaasTrunionTable.jpg
[20:54:56] <anonimasu> fsckers.
[20:55:15] <toastydeath> is that your next project?
[20:55:21] <anonimasu> no
[20:55:24] <toastydeath> IT SHOULD BE
[20:55:39] <anonimasu> I can fit a 5th axis.. :)
[20:55:53] <anonimasu> err 4th and 5th..
[20:55:53] <anonimasu> ;)
[20:56:02] <anonimasu> like on a variaxis maxhine
[20:56:05] <anonimasu> machine
[20:56:12] <anonimasu> that'd be crazy
[20:56:19] <toastydeath> haha.
[20:56:26] <toastydeath> zip zip zip!
[20:56:34] <anonimasu> I need to make gears for the rotary stuff too ;)
[20:56:45] <anonimasu> that's probably harder then hydrostatic bearings
[20:56:48] <toastydeath> gears?
[20:56:52] <anonimasu> yeah
[20:56:55] <anonimasu> ultra accurate ones
[20:57:02] <toastydeath> same general principles
[20:57:05] <toastydeath> lapping, etc
[20:57:26] <toastydeath> i am of the opinion that once you get into that range
[20:57:27] <anonimasu> lapping each tooth?
[20:57:36] <toastydeath> nothing is easy, everyhing is about the same - very hard
[20:57:39] <anonimasu> until they are close enough?
[20:57:48] <anonimasu> yeah
[20:57:50] <toastydeath> well you use another gear as a lap
[20:57:59] <toastydeath> an odd-toothed gear so that it's always presenting new teeth
[20:58:00] <anonimasu> I havent made any gears.. ever..
[20:58:04] <toastydeath> same!
[20:58:11] <anonimasu> but I need to try it..
[20:58:12] <toastydeath> just seen a lot of crap about it
[20:58:18] <anonimasu> dosent look too hard..
[20:58:22] <toastydeath> the gear lapping thing
[20:58:30] <toastydeath> different gear teeth every rotation, and varying pressure
[20:58:32] <anonimasu> I've made lots of toothed wheels for special stuff though
[20:58:43] <toastydeath> so that after you measure the teeth, the pressure is changed per tooth
[20:58:48] <toastydeath> to lap some teeth harder than others
[20:58:53] <anonimasu> yeah
[20:59:00] <anonimasu> you need a toolmaker microscope really
[20:59:05] <anonimasu> profile projector
[20:59:21] <toastydeath> not for a lapped gear
[20:59:30] <toastydeath> too accurate!
[20:59:36] <anonimasu> really?
[20:59:40] <toastydeath> yeah man
[20:59:51] <toastydeath> you won't be able to see any error optically after lapping
[21:00:15] <toastydeath> the idea is that the tooth profile will be okay, they just check gear spacing
[21:00:27] <toastydeath> the lapping forces the profile true
[21:00:39] <anonimasu> hm ok
[21:00:41] <toastydeath> the spacing, pitch, etc is what is checked
[21:01:03] <toastydeath> i did not believe it at first, that you didn't check the profile
[21:01:04] <anonimasu> but how do you get your lap gear accurate?
[21:01:12] <toastydeath> grind it or hob it
[21:01:17] <toastydeath> pref. grind it
[21:02:01] <toastydeath> hobbing is pretty decent though
[21:02:03] <anonimasu> I dont have a gear hob .)
[21:02:03] <anonimasu> :)
[21:02:11] <toastydeath> then buy a cutter!
[21:02:20] <anonimasu> lol
[21:02:28] <toastydeath> a preformed tooth cutter, not a hob
[21:02:42] <toastydeath> you're going to have problems getting accurate gears without a gear grinder or a hob
[21:04:13] <toastydeath> also brb sandwich time sir
[21:04:21] <anonimasu> sure
[21:04:20] <anonimasu> laters
[21:20:13] <anonimasu> *yawns*
[21:32:02] <anonimasu> toastydeath: drop me a msg/here when you get back
[21:32:05] <anonimasu> if you do :)
[21:37:52] <anonimasu> http://www.cnccookbook.com/img/OthersProjects/h3ndrixSpindle.gif
[21:38:27] <lerneaen_hydra> anonimasu: atc?
[21:38:35] <lerneaen_hydra> spring washers?
[21:39:17] <anonimasu> yeah
[21:39:27] <lerneaen_hydra> what's the green locking ring?
[21:39:28] <anonimasu> im working on something like it
[21:39:34] <anonimasu> a ball gripper
[21:39:42] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, I see
[21:39:45] <anonimasu> it has 3 balls that grips the pullstud
[21:39:55] <lerneaen_hydra> right, and when you press it down then they can move outwards
[21:39:59] <anonimasu> yeah
[21:40:02] <lerneaen_hydra> and the collet can drop
[21:40:04] <anonimasu> that's exactly what im designing
[21:40:11] <anonimasu> collet/toolholder yeah
[21:40:11] <lerneaen_hydra> sweet
[21:40:16] <lerneaen_hydra> work or personal?
[21:40:19] <anonimasu> actually I should stead that one
[21:40:22] <anonimasu> personal..
[21:40:26] <lerneaen_hydra> stead?
[21:40:29] <anonimasu> stead?
[21:40:36] <anonimasu> I need to build a grinder first
[21:40:43] <lerneaen_hydra> isn't the top bearing a bit underdimensioned?
[21:40:46] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, I see
[21:40:50] <anonimasu> no it's not
[21:41:01] <anonimasu> it's just to keep the top aligned..
[21:41:02] <anonimasu> the load's all at the bottom
[21:41:08] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, ok
[21:41:20] <anonimasu> the normal spindles(big ones look like that too)
[21:41:21] <lerneaen_hydra> so you don't send the force there
[21:41:31] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, I see
[21:41:35] <lerneaen_hydra> why?
[21:41:43] <anonimasu> google for mighty spindle
[21:42:05] <anonimasu> http://pergatory.mit.edu/rcortesi/portf/spindle/spindle3_small.JPG
[21:42:07] <lerneaen_hydra> isn't it easier to take up the load with a longer arm?
[21:42:20] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm I see
[21:42:35] <anonimasu> I think it ends up being stiff enough at the bottom
[21:42:43] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, ok
[21:43:12] <anonimasu> however if you have a motor with a pulley on top you want a bigger bearing
[21:43:12] <anonimasu> :)
[21:43:25] <anonimasu> hm they do apparently
[21:43:34] <lerneaen_hydra> right
[21:43:43] <anonimasu> looking at the diagram
[21:44:26] <anonimasu> you missed some stuff earlier on air bearings/hydrostatic ones
[21:45:04] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, ok
[21:45:24] <anonimasu> making precision stuff by lapping :)
[21:46:00] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: my main issue is how much/where the balls should contact with the pullstud
[21:46:10] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, I see
[21:48:49] <anonimasu> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=14262&d=1138489692
[21:48:54] <anonimasu> though the shaft looks really nasty
[21:49:03] <anonimasu> err inside of the spindle
[21:49:19] <anonimasu> though I guess it's only a reamed hole
[21:49:44] <anonimasu> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=14263&d=1138489692
[21:51:09] <lerneaen_hydra> wtf? it's a cad image?
[21:51:15] <lerneaen_hydra> how can it be rough?
[21:51:46] <anonimasu> resizing
[21:51:55] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, right
[21:52:42] <anonimasu> with a bad program that dosent do interpolation I guess.
[21:53:20] <anonimasu> mspaint ;)
[21:53:34] <lerneaen_hydra> bah
[21:53:40] <lerneaen_hydra> crappy nearest neighbor
[21:54:26] <anonimasu> yeah
[21:55:30] <JymmmEMC> huh, what lerneaen_hydra said
[21:57:50] <JymmmEMC> http://www.cnccookbook.com/MTCNCPanels.htm
[21:58:15] <anonimasu> http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCCookbook.htm
[21:58:17] <anonimasu> great page
[22:01:57] <lerneaen_hydra> why is it that almost all homebrew cnc systems run mach?
[22:02:02] <anonimasu> http://imagebin.org/9911
[22:02:06] <lerneaen_hydra> ignorance?
[22:02:06] <anonimasu> the most boring part I've ever drawn
[22:02:16] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: because it works I guess..
[22:02:37] <anonimasu> it works ok and makes them parts :)
[22:02:38] <lerneaen_hydra> I wouldn't call windows controlling iron with a RT hack "works"
[22:03:04] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: well, mach users seem happy with it
[22:03:20] <robin_sz> ddoods!
[22:03:29] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: they are making parts.. I guess that's the focus
[22:03:32] <skunkworks> woo hoo - new keyboard and battery for my portable - should last another 5 years :)
[22:03:31] <anonimasu> robin!
[22:03:51] <robin_sz> spot on
[22:04:01] <lerneaen_hydra> anonimasu: then again, most people at cnczone seem to be somewhat bigoted
[22:04:15] <skunkworks> cnczone is a mach club
[22:04:16] <robin_sz> s/biggoted/stupid/
[22:04:33] <anonimasu> mach made parts vs emc made parts ;)
[22:04:36] <anonimasu> I'd like to see a chart..
[22:04:47] <robin_sz> err, dont be silly
[22:05:11] <anonimasu> robin_sz: well, the point was, it dosent matter if it works _ok_ and makes you parts..
[22:05:19] <robin_sz> I suspect that there are plenty more mach made parts than emc made parts
[22:05:35] <anonimasu> yeah
[22:05:56] <robin_sz> emc is better, but mach is prolific
[22:06:03] <anonimasu> prilific?
[22:06:11] <robin_sz> prolific
[22:06:11] <anonimasu> prolific..?
[22:06:12] <lerneaen_hydra> widespread
[22:06:15] <anonimasu> ah yeah
[22:06:24] <robin_sz> anyway ...
[22:06:29] <robin_sz> hows my typing tonight?
[22:06:38] <robin_sz> notice how shiny it is?
[22:06:41] <lerneaen_hydra> I guess there's less of a "ooh, linux, scary!" image associated with it
[22:06:48] <robin_sz> * robin_sz is on his new laptop
[22:06:56] <lerneaen_hydra> my eyes! the bling is blinding them
[22:06:56] <lerneaen_hydra> sweet
[22:07:08] <robin_sz> go on. ask how much memory
[22:07:08] <anonimasu> robin_sz: check your pms..
[22:08:23] <anonimasu> robin_sz: how much memory?
[22:08:44] <lerneaen_hydra> which processor/chipset?
[22:09:50] <skunkworks> * skunkworks is still running his pentium 4 mobil 1.7ghz from 02
[22:10:38] <toastydeath> anonimasu: drop message
[22:10:47] <anonimasu> toastydeath: wb
[22:10:59] <toastydeath> ty
[22:11:19] <anonimasu> toastydeath: I forgot what I were going to ask
[22:11:33] <toastydeath> haha
[22:11:53] <robin_sz> anonimasu: well, its got 512mb
[22:12:41] <anonimasu> :)
[22:12:52] <robin_sz> on the video card :)
[22:13:06] <robin_sz> and 4gb of ram ... :)
[22:13:09] <anonimasu> *kept silent to be nice*
[22:13:16] <robin_sz> lerneaen_hydra: 2.33ghz core duo
[22:13:22] <anonimasu> nice
[22:13:25] <anonimasu> vista?
[22:13:27] <robin_sz> * robin_sz is very very pleased
[22:13:27] <anonimasu> *grins*
[22:13:32] <robin_sz> yeah, vista
[22:13:41] <robin_sz> and Debian of course
[22:13:41] <lerneaen_hydra> bleh
[22:13:44] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, better
[22:13:45] <anonimasu> it works I guess.. as long as you dont mess around with hardware and stuff
[22:13:49] <lerneaen_hydra> why keep vista?
[22:13:52] <anonimasu> I run it at work because it came with my computer..
[22:14:03] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: why replace it when it works?
[22:14:06] <robin_sz> lerneaen_hydra: so far, its pretty damn good to be hoenst
[22:14:23] <lerneaen_hydra> I wouldn't call DRM "works"
[22:14:30] <lerneaen_hydra> it's inherently broken
[22:14:30] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: have you used it?
[22:14:32] <robin_sz> not an issue
[22:14:34] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: or ran into it?
[22:14:41] <lerneaen_hydra> used breifly
[22:14:47] <robin_sz> not had any drm issues at all
[22:14:51] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: well, I havent seen any drm issues..
[22:15:07] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: though drm is evil shit.
[22:15:14] <robin_sz> not an issue for me
[22:15:28] <lerneaen_hydra> * lerneaen_hydra shrugs
[22:15:30] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: it's the application problem I guess..
[22:15:30] <robin_sz> i dont tend to d/l music or movies
[22:15:46] <robin_sz> some bits of it are very very good
[22:15:46] <anonimasu> linux is nice and all, but will it run solidworks?
[22:15:47] <lerneaen_hydra> that's not when you'd run into the drm issues
[22:16:02] <robin_sz> and bad at the same time
[22:16:07] <lerneaen_hydra> it's when you buy legal movies/music that drm bites you in the ass
[22:16:08] <robin_sz> let me give you an example
[22:16:18] <robin_sz> Vista supports encrypted filesystems
[22:16:37] <robin_sz> with a granularity from discs, through dirs, to files
[22:16:54] <robin_sz> very very easy, right click, options, encrypt, choose your key
[22:17:16] <robin_sz> drag files to encrypted folders and they encrypt as they go in
[22:17:21] <robin_sz> that parts lovely
[22:17:29] <robin_sz> but ... do I trust it?
[22:17:31] <lerneaen_hydra> that's not (IMO) something the OS should handle
[22:17:34] <lerneaen_hydra> that too
[22:17:36] <robin_sz> about >< this much
[22:18:17] <robin_sz> well, its a great integration ino the UI, but I dont really reallt trust it
[22:19:00] <robin_sz> for anything worhtwhile, cryptfs under linux
[22:24:03] <anonimasu> :)
[22:24:05] <anonimasu> *yawns*
[22:24:20] <anonimasu> toastydeath: yeah about gear cutting
[22:24:32] <anonimasu> toastydeath: wouldnt a gear profile cutter do it well?
[22:24:33] <anonimasu> on a mill
[22:25:02] <toastydeath> does a pretty good approximation of a gear, yeah
[22:25:13] <toastydeath> hobbing and grinding actually generate the gear profile geometrically
[22:25:21] <anonimasu> yeah
[22:25:25] <toastydeath> though i'm not sure how the grinder works.
[22:25:39] <toastydeath> but there's lots of success using gear cutters on a mill.
[22:25:43] <anonimasu> yeah
[22:25:51] <anonimasu> I wonder how close you can get..
[22:26:23] <toastydeath> dunno!
[22:26:35] <anonimasu> probably close enough for lapping them by hand..
[22:26:43] <toastydeath> well no
[22:26:43] <robin_sz> managed to get the toolchanger running on the mill today
[22:26:54] <robin_sz> thats pretty cool
[22:26:57] <toastydeath> because the hob and the grinder generate the gear very accurately
[22:27:02] <toastydeath> in terms of spacing
[22:27:06] <toastydeath> and the lap only does very small adjustments
[22:27:09] <toastydeath> verrry small
[22:27:26] <toastydeath> on the mill, you're reproducing whatever error the rotary table has.
[22:27:37] <skunkworks> bbl
[22:27:56] <robin_sz> just got to figure out how to get it to drip feed nicely
[22:27:58] <anonimasu> toastydeath: rotary encoder on the output shaft..
[22:28:18] <robin_sz> anyone have any recommendations for a drip feed DNC that will work nicely with a Fanuc?
[22:28:18] <anonimasu> toastydeath: and lock the rotary table when milling..
[22:28:26] <anonimasu> robin_sz: predator nc?
[22:28:26] <toastydeath> it still doesn't get you in hand lapping turf
[22:29:05] <toastydeath> it will get you close, but not THAT close.
[22:29:11] <toastydeath> lapping is such a tiny operation
[22:29:22] <anonimasu> I wonder how close you need to get..
[22:29:29] <anonimasu> 0.09 degrees of spacing..
[22:29:42] <anonimasu> within..
[22:29:50] <anonimasu> with a rotary encoder..
[22:30:03] <toastydeath> you're going to be very good for any normal gear application
[22:30:09] <toastydeath> lapping is usually only done for positioning stuff
[22:30:16] <anonimasu> yeah I know
[22:30:19] <anonimasu> thats why im wondering..
[22:30:42] <toastydeath> lapping is done to correct a few arcseconds of error
[22:30:43] <anonimasu> getting a gear hob or a grinder is _steep_
[22:30:55] <toastydeath> precision hobs are made
[22:30:59] <toastydeath> by the shop cutting the gear
[22:31:11] <toastydeath> they need to be made like a gage leadscrew does
[22:31:21] <toastydeath> but the machine is too, yeah
[22:31:41] <anonimasu> toastydeath: the machine is the steep part..
[22:31:51] <toastydeath> yeah
[22:32:04] <toastydeath> but like the people who do lapping for tooth correction
[22:32:09] <toastydeath> build their own gear to do it
[22:32:11] <toastydeath> a lot of the time
[22:32:13] <anonimasu> heh
[22:32:26] <anonimasu> I guess I can always do with abrasive compound..
[22:32:42] <toastydeath> it'll improve the life of the gear, if nothing else
[22:32:45] <anonimasu> not lapping one..
[22:32:47] <anonimasu> and machine oversize..
[22:32:51] <anonimasu> until it's tight enough
[22:33:06] <anonimasu> err not "I" you can probably do taht
[22:33:30] <toastydeath> yeah right
[22:33:38] <toastydeath> you built your own cnc
[22:33:51] <toastydeath> if you really wanted to do it an invested money in it
[22:33:53] <anonimasu> im just interested in how to make precision gears easily..
[22:33:59] <toastydeath> you can't, unfortunately
[22:34:12] <toastydeath> that's why they're so expensive
[22:34:17] <anonimasu> heh.. easily/cheaper then buying a gearbox with them..
[22:34:31] <anonimasu> a nema 23 gearbox is 700eur..
[22:34:35] <toastydeath> it's one of those items where you're either going to spend the money on the finished product
[22:34:50] <toastydeath> or spend two to three times that for all the perhiperal crap to make the gear
[22:35:12] <toastydeath> but do you really need a precision gear?
[22:35:20] <anonimasu> yeah.. somtimes..
[22:35:23] <lerneaen_hydra> anonimasu: that bad? how much backlash?
[22:35:33] <toastydeath> precisions gears don't really eliminate backlash
[22:35:40] <toastydeath> that's not what the lapping does
[22:35:46] <anonimasu> toastydeath: actually it's the backslash I want to get away from not the accuract..
[22:35:52] <lerneaen_hydra> I take it it's just that the rotational movement is even
[22:35:55] <toastydeath> belts, i guess
[22:36:06] <anonimasu> toastydeath: for like a rotary table?
[22:36:29] <lerneaen_hydra> worm gears can be backlash free, right?
[22:36:31] <toastydeath> the most accurate rotary tables in the world have a lot of backlash
[22:36:45] <toastydeath> they're only lapped in one direction
[22:36:43] <lerneaen_hydra> or, well, backlash free and backlash free
[22:36:47] <lerneaen_hydra> nearly none
[22:36:52] <anonimasu> my rotary table has a bit.. it works great..
[22:37:04] <toastydeath> i don't know how to make a gear backlash free without some source of counter-torque
[22:37:07] <anonimasu> I have a spec paper for it somehwere..
[22:37:27] <toastydeath> and that countertorque can always be overcome
[22:37:47] <toastydeath> some rotary tables are just big servos
[22:37:55] <anonimasu> yeah
[22:38:26] <anonimasu> im going to wind them too
[22:38:28] <anonimasu> *grins*
[22:38:38] <toastydeath> haha
[22:38:40] <anonimasu> beacuse they are expensive
[22:38:42] <anonimasu> just kidding
[22:38:54] <toastydeath> i'd believe you if you said you were gonna give it a shot
[22:38:58] <anonimasu> though making gears that's close enough for most stuff is a interesting thing
[22:39:06] <anonimasu> im not that crazy..
[22:39:09] <toastydeath> with a good rotary table and a grinder
[22:39:23] <toastydeath> or hell, maybe even just the milling cutter
[22:39:26] <toastydeath> you can probably get close
[22:39:31] <toastydeath> but you won't be able to measure how close you are.
[22:39:35] <anonimasu> lol
[22:40:23] <toastydeath> and there's that old adage
[22:40:29] <toastydeath> you can't work more accurately than you can measure.
[22:40:38] <anonimasu> toastydeath: I guess I should buy that damn gauge off ebay
[22:40:40] <anonimasu> :P
[22:40:46] <toastydeath> hahaha, and like seventeen other things
[22:40:51] <toastydeath> to measure a gear
[22:40:56] <anonimasu> yeah and a interferometer..
[22:41:02] <anonimasu> while at it
[22:41:03] <toastydeath> autocollimator
[22:41:04] <toastydeath> actually
[22:41:04] <anonimasu> yep
[22:41:10] <toastydeath> if you wanted to check a gear
[22:41:18] <toastydeath> two optical flats
[22:41:25] <anonimasu> if I cant feel the backslash it's ok.
[22:41:25] <toastydeath> metallized
[22:41:33] <anonimasu> ok for anything I need to do :)
[22:41:36] <toastydeath> well again i'd argue that backlash and precision are completely different
[22:41:43] <toastydeath> belts have no backlash
[22:41:45] <anonimasu> yeah
[22:41:59] <anonimasu> but they spring..
[22:42:05] <toastydeath> yep, there's that whole precision thing.
[22:43:11] <anonimasu> yp theres no way around it
[22:43:39] <toastydeath> what about some kind of ball bearing arrangement
[22:43:45] <toastydeath> like, a ball bearing pump maybe?
[22:43:57] <anonimasu> bearing pump?
[22:43:58] <toastydeath> or preloaded ball bearings as teeth or something
[22:44:00] <toastydeath> i dunno
[22:44:23] <toastydeath> like, have one gear force bearings through a tube, to another gear
[22:44:25] <anonimasu> I cant imagine how tha tlooks
[22:44:29] <toastydeath> like a belt
[22:44:35] <toastydeath> except with bearings instead of a belt
[22:44:37] <anonimasu> yeah
[22:44:46] <toastydeath> i don't think that would even work
[22:45:04] <toastydeath> but there's got to be a way to use ball or needle bearings
[22:45:18] <toastydeath> as teeth under some kind of preload
[22:45:22] <anonimasu> still that woudnt be cheap either..
[22:45:43] <toastydeath> zero backlash, accurate, cheap
[22:45:44] <toastydeath> pick two
[22:45:45] <toastydeath> =)
[22:45:53] <toastydeath> i kid.
[22:45:57] <anonimasu> haha zero backslash and cheap ;)
[22:45:59] <toastydeath> i dunno man, I'm out of ideas
[22:46:04] <anonimasu> yeah..
[22:46:07] <anonimasu> it's ok..
[22:46:14] <toastydeath> there's got to be books on gear design
[22:46:18] <toastydeath> that delve into zero backlash systems
[22:46:21] <anonimasu> I guess if I want to see I should machine a gear...
[22:46:27] <anonimasu> the easiest way is preload
[22:46:40] <toastydeath> yeah
[22:47:13] <anonimasu> I guess..
[22:47:20] <toastydeath> plain bearing surfaces hate preload though
[22:47:28] <toastydeath> it would work, but not for all that long
[22:47:33] <toastydeath> comparatively
[22:47:36] <anonimasu> plaing bearing surfaces?
[22:47:41] <toastydeath> yeah, the gears rub
[22:47:58] <toastydeath> because of imperfections of the gear form, etc
[22:48:02] <anonimasu> plastic preload gear..
[22:48:06] <anonimasu> ;)
[22:48:06] <toastydeath> lol
[22:48:17] <anonimasu> or well a wear material..
[22:48:26] <toastydeath> at least you'd have your own torque limiting element
[22:48:28] <toastydeath> if you used a plastic gear
[22:48:32] <anonimasu> and yeah
[22:48:33] <anonimasu> not platic perhaps..
[22:48:35] <toastydeath> "hey it stopped"
[22:48:36] <anonimasu> but a softer material..
[22:48:41] <toastydeath> "did you try actually milling with it?"
[22:48:44] <toastydeath> "yes"
[22:48:45] <toastydeath> "well there you go"
[22:48:54] <anonimasu> for the preload gear..
[22:49:00] <toastydeath> yeah
[22:49:16] <anonimasu> several smaller gears for preload with less force per tooth..
[22:49:44] <anonimasu> that means less wear too
[22:49:51] <toastydeath> yeah
[22:50:08] <anonimasu> actually I have a gear cutter lying around
[22:50:18] <anonimasu> http://images.google.se/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/08/MillInvoluteGearCutter.jpg/119px-MillInvoluteGearCutter.jpg&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cutting_tool&h=120&w=119&sz=3&hl=sv&start=149&um=1&tbnid=aA10xtWfURGbRM:&tbnh=88&tbnw=87&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgear%2Bcutter%26start%3D147%26ndsp%3D21%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dsv%26sa%3DN
[22:50:24] <anonimasu> like that
[22:50:27] <toastydeath> yep
[22:50:46] <toastydeath> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/MillingCutterCarbideTippedFaceMill-INT40.jpg
[22:50:49] <toastydeath> awww yeah
[22:50:55] <anonimasu> >(
[22:50:55] <toastydeath> hoggin'
[22:50:59] <anonimasu> :)
[22:51:03] <anonimasu> thats a tiny one
[22:51:12] <toastydeath> tiny is relative
[22:51:18] <toastydeath> still 8 tooth
[22:51:22] <toastydeath> that's a very heavy feed
[22:51:39] <toastydeath> even if it is a small diameter cutter
[22:52:00] <anonimasu> I have a 120mm one at work.. for facing stuff
[22:52:11] <toastydeath> tooth count?
[22:52:27] <anonimasu> 8 I think
[22:52:29] <toastydeath> rockin'
[22:52:29] <anonimasu> I cant remember
[22:52:41] <anonimasu> lots of tooth :p
[22:52:52] <toastydeath> i still enjoy the 200 lb cutters
[22:52:56] <toastydeath> for the horizontal mills
[22:52:58] <anonimasu> the small one I have has 8 though
[22:53:05] <toastydeath> needs the little engine hoist to put them on the machine
[22:53:10] <anonimasu> and the very little one has 4 :)
[22:53:15] <toastydeath> haha.
[22:53:33] <anonimasu> I like that the most
[22:53:39] <anonimasu> insert cutter I guess
[22:53:58] <anonimasu> http://www.mmsonline.com/mag_images/019501a.jpg
[22:54:33] <toastydeath> yar
[22:55:41] <anonimasu> toastydeath: you need to build a gear grinder..
[22:55:43] <anonimasu> emc controlled
[22:57:26] <toastydeath> in the future i'd like to build a business around that principle
[22:57:32] <toastydeath> pay for features i want to see
[22:57:35] <toastydeath> etc
[22:57:38] <toastydeath> and use it to drive machines
[22:57:47] <toastydeath> because fanuc charges you your left testicle
[22:57:51] <toastydeath> for equivilent capability
[22:57:51] <anonimasu> yep
[22:58:23] <anonimasu> less expensive machines means less $$$ to pay off.
[22:58:28] <toastydeath> my idea for a grinder though
[22:58:32] <toastydeath> would be similar to a hob
[22:58:41] <anonimasu> which means that having more idle machines wont kill your buisness.
[22:58:49] <toastydeath> one wheel, with one segement of the worm profile
[22:59:00] <anonimasu> I chuckle every time I see a idle machine :/
[22:59:07] <toastydeath> and move the grinding wheel while the gear rotates
[22:59:11] <toastydeath> then index, and do it again
[22:59:17] <toastydeath> well it depends on why the machine is idle!
[22:59:21] <anonimasu> yeah
[22:59:26] <anonimasu> idle as in no work
[22:59:31] <toastydeath> yeah
[22:59:47] <toastydeath> but even with EMC/etc
[22:59:50] <toastydeath> there is an investment
[22:59:54] <anonimasu> yeah, but not as substantial
[23:00:15] <anonimasu> used controls are like 10000eur..
[23:00:45] <toastydeath> we have an engineer who is rebuilding a t-base lathe
[23:00:53] <toastydeath> 10000 would have been cheap compared to the cost of the engineer
[23:01:05] <anonimasu> :)
[23:01:23] <toastydeath> i like the concept of emc because it IS open, and there would probably be more than one programmer willing to add a feature for a sum of money
[23:01:28] <anonimasu> yeah
[23:01:36] <toastydeath> and then everyone can use that
[23:01:38] <toastydeath> not just me
[23:01:53] <toastydeath> or whoever paid for it.
[23:02:18] <toastydeath> in sum, cool beans.
[23:02:50] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[23:03:03] <toastydeath> the interesting thing i am learning about "advanced" machines is they're using four or five different controllers
[23:03:19] <toastydeath> all essentially unaware of one another
[23:03:36] <anonimasu> what do you mean?
[23:03:42] <anonimasu> you mean different blocks in the servo loop?
[23:03:50] <toastydeath> no, i mean physically seperate controllers
[23:03:54] <anonimasu> ah ok
[23:04:45] <anonimasu> toastydeath: please continue :)
[23:05:19] <anonimasu> toast: wb
[23:05:20] <toast> arrrrrr
[23:05:23] <toast> ty sir
[23:05:36] <toast> but some machines do the main control, i.e. emc
[23:05:43] <toast> then they have three or four other controllers doing very specific tasks
[23:05:50] <toast> like one controller may monitor the metrology frame for positioning
[23:05:59] <toast> one controller may do the major movements
[23:06:13] <toast> then a break off that would do the fine error correction
[23:07:05] <anonimasu> ok
[23:07:12] <toast> cool concept
[23:07:16] <toast> very modular
[23:09:00] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[23:09:13] <toast> pew pew pew
[23:09:39] <anonimasu> hehe
[23:09:39] <toast> wtf
[23:09:42] <toast> why am i back
[23:09:50] <anonimasu> ^_^
[23:10:02] <anonimasu> lets build a interferometer
[23:10:04] <toast> irssi is too helpful sometimes
[23:10:11] <toast> oh my god i looked into that
[23:10:11] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[23:10:18] <anonimasu> easy stuff right?
[23:10:17] <toast> it is ridiculously difficult
[23:10:23] <toast> maybe in 20 yeras
[23:10:24] <anonimasu> *just being a pain*
[23:10:26] <toast> *years
[23:10:30] <toast> hahaha
[23:10:34] <toast> A TASTE OF MY OWN MEDICINE
[23:10:40] <anonimasu> yeah
[23:11:06] <anonimasu> cheaper to buy then to build ;)
[23:11:42] <anonimasu> hm
[23:11:44] <anonimasu> I feel like machining.
[23:11:49] <anonimasu> 01:11 at night
[23:11:49] <toast> haha
[23:11:50] <toast> gogogo
[23:12:13] <anonimasu> I dont need any parts that urgently
[23:12:22] <anonimasu> I need a beer and a bottle opener
[23:12:32] <anonimasu> and it's monday night so no
[23:12:32] <anonimasu> :)
[23:12:36] <toast> ha
[23:13:50] <anonimasu> *yawns*
[23:23:59] <anonimasu> iab
[23:24:54] <robin_sz> mmm /.. nice new phone
[23:26:33] <robin_sz> im not quite sure why I wanted a phone with all these features
[23:27:47] <anonimasu> :)
[23:27:49] <anonimasu> what kind of?
[23:37:22] <anonimasu> hm..
[23:37:42] <toast> apparently the phone has assimilated him
[23:39:30] <anonimasu> yep
[23:39:43] <anonimasu> damn I need to read up on bearing design..
[23:39:49] <anonimasu> well, rotating element..
[23:41:24] <anonimasu> toast: looking at a grinding spindle design..
[23:42:36] <toast> hot
[23:43:14] <anonimasu> though I dont have any bearings that will do 26krpmö.
[23:43:36] <anonimasu> ^_^
[23:44:26] <toast> lol
[23:48:12] <anonimasu> ah
[23:48:14] <anonimasu> found ones that will live
[23:48:52] <toast> pew pew pew COMCAST HIGH SPEED BEARINGS
[23:49:07] <anonimasu> I guess I need to gear down to 10krpm..
[23:49:37] <anonimasu> but they are standard skf ones
[23:50:12] <anonimasu> ^_^
[23:52:11] <anonimasu> toast: /W robin_sz
[23:52:58] <toast> /w?
[23:53:16] <anonimasu> window..
[23:53:19] <anonimasu> irssi
[23:53:24] <toast> irizzle my nizzle
[23:54:03] <toast> i still have no idea what you are talking about
[23:54:13] <toast> other than the window command is useful sometimes
[23:54:24] <anonimasu> ./W close
[23:54:25] <anonimasu> :p
[23:54:31] <anonimasu> /w #channel
[23:54:34] <anonimasu> works too
[23:54:50] <toast> apparently pew is a channel?
[23:54:53] <toast> or a nick
[23:55:05] <toast> or... BOTH
[23:55:07] <robin_sz> anonimasu: nokia n95
[23:55:10] <anonimasu> ok
[23:55:35] <robin_sz> the GPS is a bit poor though
[23:56:22] <toast> i have a map
[23:56:23] <toast> in the car.
[23:56:31] <toast> if i have a passenger
[23:56:36] <toast> it gives turn by turn directions =(
[23:56:47] <robin_sz> yeah right
[23:57:00] <robin_sz> let my give you a situation
[23:57:00] <toast> ='(
[23:57:16] <robin_sz> assume you are driving along ... with passenger ... and map,
[23:57:19] <toast> you are going to hurt my map's feelings
[23:57:24] <toast> it is sensitive.
[23:57:28] <robin_sz> and ... the passenger is my wife.
[23:57:33] <toast> hahaha
[23:57:42] <robin_sz> trust me, you are lost.
[23:57:49] <toast> i sort of treat my passenger like a command line
[23:57:51] <toast> OPEN THE MAP
[23:57:54] <toast> TURN TO THE INDEX
[23:58:00] <toast> LOOK UNDER "D"
[23:58:40] <toast> or, call someone who is competent
[23:58:48] <robin_sz> probably best
[23:59:12] <robin_sz> I'll try it anyway
[23:59:20] <toast> hahah
[23:59:31] <robin_sz> the trick is to preload the GPS with maps over the tinternet
[23:59:41] <robin_sz> do not, ever, ever ever
[23:59:51] <robin_sz> let it load maps over GPRS
[23:59:52] <toast> hahaha