#emc | Logs for 2007-08-12

[00:00:04] <les_w> toast what are you making on a diamond lathe? optics?
[00:10:17] <toast_> nah just bearing stuff
[00:10:31] <toast_> this lathe is almost manual
[00:10:32] <toast_> no contouring
[00:49:24] <les_w> I do a good bit of bearing work
[00:52:53] <toast_> cool
[01:08:11] <fenn> another play on the same idea: http://fenn.dyndns.org/pub/irc/emc-lathe-chips.png
[01:08:23] <toast_> hahahahaha
[01:22:59] <les_w> bleh have a terrible fruit fly problem in the house from harvested garden stuff
[01:23:17] <les_w> they are suddenly everywhere
[01:24:01] <les_w> getting in in the stripped down walls i guess
[01:24:54] <toast_> damn
[01:27:11] <les_w> found a solution
[01:27:17] <les_w> get big jar
[01:27:37] <les_w> make a paper cone with a hole in it
[01:27:49] <les_w> tape to top of jar
[01:27:59] <toast_> hmm
[01:28:10] <les_w> pour a few spoonfulls of apple vinegar in
[01:28:23] <les_w> they fly in...can't get out
[01:28:27] <fenn> they like beer better
[01:28:36] <les_w> just did it and it's working
[01:28:44] <fenn> well alrighty then :)
[01:29:00] <les_w> seem to like vinegar better than beer
[01:29:30] <les_w> huge cloud of flies around the jar after 5 minutes!
[01:29:31] <les_w> haha
[01:29:37] <fenn> must be because the fruit flies around here are from the college :P
[01:29:48] <les_w> heh
[01:32:12] <les_w> wow this works so good...they will be gone in a few minutes
[01:32:21] <toast_> i might have to try that
[01:32:23] <toast_> i have a few
[01:32:26] <toast_> do they die in the vinegar
[01:32:50] <les_w> best I read is to cut the top off of a 2 liter soda bottle then reverseit and tape it on
[01:32:56] <les_w> then vinegar inside
[01:33:00] <toast_> hmm
[01:33:06] <toast_> i have both of those, i believe
[01:33:13] <toast_> will just a little work?
[01:33:24] <les_w> no they just can't find their way out of the inverted cone
[01:33:29] <les_w> like a fish trap
[01:33:55] <les_w> yeah just a tablespoon or so
[01:35:59] <les_w> this works evenbetter than the dead fish hanging over soapy water yellowjacket trap
[01:36:10] <toast_> loool
[01:38:01] <les_w> with a lot of the drywall off the house bugs can get in through the lap wood siding
[01:38:12] <les_w> I have to get this joint buttoned up
[01:38:23] <toast_> i need to see if i have apple vinegar, will regular vinegar work?
[01:38:34] <les_w> might
[01:38:42] <les_w> I would guess so
[01:39:13] <les_w> wine would be great i'll bet
[01:39:21] <toast_> hmm
[01:39:21] <toast_> brb
[01:41:22] <toast_> okay, i guess we'll see if regular vinegar works
[01:42:50] <les_w> cool
[01:43:04] <les_w> I guess you have some fruit flies too
[01:43:11] <les_w> common this time of year
[01:43:45] <les_w> but real bad if you can't seal the house up
[01:43:54] <toast_> i don't know why they're in my house
[01:43:57] <toast_> i can't find any dead/rotting food
[01:44:00] <les_w> there are 1/8 gaps in the lap siding
[01:44:01] <toast_> or, even fruit
[01:44:17] <toast_> our neighbors are pigs, i believe
[01:44:29] <toast_> we had some bug problems that showed up just on that wall
[01:44:37] <toast_> and the exterminator had to come out to their apartment multiple times
[01:44:46] <toast_> and came to mine, to hit that wall
[01:44:48] <les_w> soda cans in garbage pail, sink drain
[01:45:02] <fenn> oo its on sale even: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95666
[01:45:08] <les_w> or so I read
[01:45:27] <toast_> hahahaha
[01:45:32] <toast_> gas powered torque wrench.
[01:45:42] <toast_> that's almost as bad as the hydraulic pistol grip drill i saw
[01:46:02] <les_w> hmmm
[01:46:03] <toast_> think of all the things you could do with that impact wrench.
[01:46:14] <fenn> take bolts off, put them back on
[01:46:20] <fenn> um..
[01:46:21] <les_w> like our mapp powered nailer
[01:46:51] <fenn> i saw some amish guys using those the other day
[01:47:01] <Skullworks-PGAB> a guy used something like that to change the tires on my RV
[01:47:01] <fenn> dont tell them it has a piezo ignition..
[01:47:56] <les_w> I have an old one I used to develop a mechnical filter for the fan system and it's acting up
[01:48:01] <Skullworks-PGAB> I use a meter long 3/4" breaker bar when doing it solo
[01:48:14] <les_w> so I called them and they are sending me another
[01:48:29] <les_w> It's the only framing nailer I have
[01:48:44] <Skullworks-PGAB> Hey Fenn - that toolholder with chips looks cheap without a proper top clamp.
[01:48:57] <fenn> well, so?
[01:49:10] <Skullworks-PGAB> just sayin...
[01:49:12] <les_w> I have air brad and finish nailers though
[01:49:15] <fenn> its based on a real toolholder i had
[01:49:25] <toast_> we have toolholders exactly like that
[01:49:39] <toast_> they have one important property we desire in a toolholder
[01:49:40] <toast_> and that is:
[01:49:44] <toast_> "holding the insert"
[01:49:51] <les_w> heh
[01:49:52] <fenn> always a plus
[01:50:07] <Skullworks-PGAB> WNMG needs a good top clamp for accurate repeatable use
[01:50:51] <les_w> I use 1144 stressproff for my rotary holders
[01:51:11] <Skullworks-PGAB> Iscar uses ONLY a top clamp - its crap
[01:51:23] <les_w> it is hard to do a good 0.125 hole in 0.5 stock though
[01:51:36] <Skullworks-PGAB> another brand uses only a cam pin - crap
[01:51:50] <les_w> good to about 0.0005
[01:52:01] <Skullworks-PGAB> need cam pin and top clamp - like Kennametal makes
[01:52:43] <Skullworks-PGAB> but current toolroom stocker only looks at price - not quality
[01:52:53] <toast_> my experience with "repeatable" toolholders is that if i really need repeatability, i have to touch the tool off again
[01:53:05] <toast_> no matter how expensive the toolholder is or how accurate the manufacturer states
[01:53:19] <Skullworks-PGAB> wonders why we have to replace holders when they only offer us crap to use
[01:53:27] <toast_> even on 2000 dollar boring bars
[01:54:49] <les_w> I usually use cemented carbide on the lathe
[01:54:53] <les_w> dirt cheap
[01:55:10] <les_w> I have a diamond sharpening station though
[01:55:11] <Skullworks-PGAB> so true toast - but if the dia on the next part is within .02mm I'm OK - they are more worried about finish than size
[01:55:51] <Skullworks-PGAB> although I am only allowed .013mm taper over 382mm length
[01:56:11] <les_w> fairly tight
[01:56:54] <toast_> indeed
[01:57:04] <les_w> I can't hold that on the lathe
[01:57:12] <les_w> but I can on the grinder
[01:57:37] <Skullworks-PGAB> yeah - they make use hold size fairly tight so the coating thickness can have a bit of margin
[01:57:55] <toast_> that long you'd need a tailstock that was fairly well aligned
[01:57:56] <fenn> this is for laser printer fusers?
[01:58:34] <Skullworks-PGAB> I should shoot some pics of the Fanuc CNC coating line
[01:58:45] <les_w> If I had to do that on the lathe I would be breaking out the stones and micrometer
[01:59:23] <Skullworks-PGAB> yeah - or in this case a steel roller for Toshiba that uses induction heating instead of laser
[02:00:14] <toast_> well it's more a matter of spindle alignment
[02:00:20] <toast_> most people don't align their tailstocks properly
[02:00:34] <Skullworks-PGAB> have to wipe out every part before coating - any chips on the inside can start arcing
[02:00:36] <toast_> whereas the tailstock on a good CNC will be done properly from the factory
[02:00:46] <les_w> on small toolroom lathe deflection is a big issue
[02:00:48] <Skullworks-PGAB> I wish!
[02:00:50] <les_w> for me
[02:01:02] <fenn> les its that carbide tooling you use
[02:01:04] <toast_> also true
[02:01:12] <toast_> (deflection)
[02:01:13] <Skullworks-PGAB> Damn Okuma LR15 has the worst tailstock...
[02:01:17] <toast_> lool
[02:01:21] <toast_> do you program the taper out?
[02:01:38] <Skullworks-PGAB> great dual turret - but the tailstock sucks
[02:02:10] <toast_> how does carbide increase deflection?
[02:02:17] <fenn> not enough back rake because its too brittle
[02:02:19] <les_w> I just have a little boxford VSL in the prototype shop
[02:02:31] <Skullworks-PGAB> yes - program uses seven variables to compensate for taper issues/alignment
[02:02:57] <les_w> it's like a SB heavy 10 with tapered roller headstock
[02:02:58] <Skullworks-PGAB> worse is the taper changes quickly with heat changes
[02:03:05] <toast_> les_w: are you sure that it's deflection and not twist in the ways
[02:03:16] <toast_> ways could be very straight and just a bit off
[02:03:34] <les_w> oh yeah. I scraped it myself.
[02:03:42] <toast_> what's the twist
[02:03:48] <toast_> when you finished scraping it
[02:03:50] <toast_> over the length
[02:04:33] <les_w> just about nothing as measured...my templates are made on a lab grade plate
[02:04:45] <les_w> but plenty of deflection in cutting
[02:05:03] <toast_> the lathe was levelled?
[02:05:13] <les_w> like any light duty lathe
[02:05:30] <les_w> it is level
[02:05:48] <toast_> make a follower rest or a box tool
[02:05:51] <les_w> I use a 10 sec per division level
[02:06:09] <fenn> les is the great leveler
[02:06:10] <les_w> about .0005"/foot per division
[02:06:29] <toast_> so you can measure twist in the ways
[02:06:40] <les_w> yeah I have steadies and followers
[02:06:53] <toast_> box tool?
[02:07:02] <les_w> I't just a heavy 10 ( or a boxford) is a light duty lathe
[02:07:09] <toast_> i guess man
[02:07:11] <les_w> fine for prototype lab
[02:07:59] <les_w> it's a small 1500 lb 10x48 manual lathe
[02:08:21] <les_w> I bought 5 and fixed em up
[02:08:25] <les_w> sold others
[02:08:30] <toast_> nice
[02:08:34] <les_w> they were from a trade school
[02:08:36] <toast_> good money?
[02:08:50] <les_w> yeah pretty good
[02:09:11] <les_w> they were 6000 new in 1980 something
[02:09:28] <les_w> 1986 I think
[02:10:00] <toast_> wow
[02:10:18] <les_w> might have a pic... let me check
[02:10:20] <toast_> decent little buggers
[02:10:22] <toast_> i googled it
[02:10:31] <toast_> unless you mean you have pictures of YOURS
[02:10:39] <les_w> yeah
[02:10:45] <les_w> hang on
[02:10:48] <toast_> cool
[02:16:02] <les_w> http://imagebin.org/9884
[02:16:21] <les_w> we fixed em up real nice
[02:16:40] <les_w> rescraped and carefully aligned
[02:17:01] <les_w> class 9 spindle bearings I think
[02:17:31] <les_w> I reground spindles in place so collets fit perfect
[02:18:39] <toast_> nice man
[02:18:59] <toast_> that looks very nice.
[02:19:11] <les_w> castings stripped, refilled, repainted with automotive paint with hardener
[02:19:14] <les_w> thanks
[02:19:51] <toast_> haha i always get jealous when someone can remanufacture a machine
[02:19:56] <toast_> that's something i'd really like to do as a hobby
[02:20:02] <toast_> so my hat really is off to you.
[02:20:11] <les_w> it is just light duty...but a lot of parts in the lab get made on it
[02:20:23] <les_w> it's fun
[02:20:29] <toast_> light duty, heavy duty, you still put the elbow grease in on it to make it run great
[02:20:37] <toast_> that's what matters to me.
[02:20:53] <les_w> I rebuilt most of my shop machines
[02:20:53] <toast_> where'd you learn scraping?
[02:21:03] <les_w> I got the grinder real good
[02:21:39] <toast_> ha
[02:21:50] <les_w> I taught my self some as a teen, but later had old chicago scrapers teach me a lot
[02:22:15] <toast_> i'm going to have to find someone local to teach me, maybe pay them for some lessons
[02:22:35] <les_w> most of our scraping is actually done with a pencil grinder
[02:22:35] <toast_> gonna try to get the basic technique down in school as an independant project, but i doubt i'm going to get very far
[02:22:52] <toast_> hahaha
[02:23:06] <les_w> get the book ' machine tool reconditioning'
[02:23:11] <les_w> must have
[02:23:13] <toast_> i've heard of that
[02:23:19] <toast_> i've read Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy
[02:23:22] <les_w> gotta have that book
[02:23:45] <les_w> I checked it out at the library about a dozen times when I was 16
[02:23:59] <toast_> hahaha, i'm going to have to look around for it
[02:24:03] <les_w> I have a copy in the office here
[02:24:21] <les_w> it is expensive, but a must have
[02:24:27] <les_w> it's the bible
[02:24:26] <toast_> the best books are
[02:24:28] <fenn> toast_: les wrote a nice article you should read: http://www.lmwatts.com/straightedge.html
[02:24:43] <toast_> i also have access to ultrahigh resolution reconditioning equipment
[02:24:53] <toast_> if i ever get that far
[02:25:05] <toast_> and i do have someone i plan on asking to teach me scraping
[02:25:15] <les_w> yeah I write some scraping articles too
[02:25:27] <toast_> fenn: ty, i'm familiar with the process though
[02:25:36] <fenn> well its not really about hand scraping
[02:25:45] <toast_> automatic generation of gages
[02:26:21] <les_w> Moore's principles of accuracy is a bible too
[02:26:30] <toast_> i agree on that
[02:26:43] <toast_> best book i've read so far
[02:27:05] <les_w> so you are familiar with it
[02:27:14] <les_w> my stuff just makes it faster
[02:27:27] <les_w> much faster
[02:27:35] <toast_> yeah, i study precision machine design/precision machining
[02:27:49] <toast_> hopefully as a career path
[02:27:49] <les_w> great
[02:27:57] <toast_> so true hand scraping is something i must learn
[02:28:10] <les_w> I keep the slocum MIT book on the shelf
[02:28:17] <toast_> yes!
[02:28:19] <toast_> another amazing text
[02:28:29] <les_w> good book
[02:29:33] <toast_> i've priced out the basic scraping items and some "training" stuff on it
[02:29:45] <toast_> so hopefully i'll have the cash after i pay tuition this semester to take it up
[02:29:51] <toast_> saving what i can.
[02:31:17] <toast_> there's a couple straightedges at work, i don't think i'm allowed to borrow those though
[02:31:25] <toast_> plus they're a bit large.
[02:31:24] <les_w> what is your major?
[02:31:36] <toast_> well, at the moment it's mechanical engineering.
[02:31:41] <les_w> ok
[02:31:47] <les_w> I'm anaero
[02:31:52] <toast_> a-who?
[02:32:01] <les_w> aerospace engineer
[02:32:04] <toast_> ohhh
[02:32:08] <fenn> anaerobic engineer
[02:32:13] <les_w> math mostly
[02:32:15] <toast_> that's what i thought, anaerobic
[02:32:19] <les_w> haha
[02:32:27] <toast_> i was like "impressive, i still have to breathe"
[02:33:03] <les_w> heh
[02:33:18] <toast_> do you use any of your machine skills at work
[02:33:20] <les_w> mechanical...hmm how far along?
[02:33:27] <toast_> still fresh
[02:33:36] <toast_> like, second semester (i used to be in computer science)
[02:33:48] <toast_> used to be in computer science for two years, then decided I wanted to be a machinist
[02:34:05] <toast_> then realized there's all this crazy equipment in precision machining and now I'm going after that.
[02:34:08] <toast_> and here i am a year later.
[02:35:22] <les_w> Toast, I am an inventor. Virtually everything that comes out of the lab is personally machine by me.
[02:35:31] <toast_> rocking!
[02:36:13] <les_w> I used to be a R&D manager for a company, and I still showed up in the shop
[02:36:44] <les_w> My stuff, and my staff's stuff was made in home shops and kitchen tables
[02:37:11] <toast_> hahaha
[02:37:43] <les_w> I let my guys work at home!
[02:37:56] <toast_> telecommuting!
[02:38:03] <les_w> heh
[02:38:06] <les_w> yeah
[02:38:14] <toast_> i kind of like going in to work
[02:38:20] <toast_> just because there's so much cool stuff
[02:38:23] <les_w> now my lab and shop is on a farm.
[02:38:31] <toast_> what do you make?
[02:39:24] <les_w> well, lots of things. The best money maker was the car heated side mirror. The patents have expired for that.
[02:39:34] <toast_> hahahaha
[02:39:37] <toast_> devious
[02:40:03] <toast_> i'd like to open up a little one man gagemaking shop, or something similar
[02:40:07] <les_w> it was actually made in garages and kitchens
[02:40:17] <les_w> well I do that
[02:40:30] <les_w> and somehow manage tosurvive
[02:40:38] <toast_> gagemaking, or one man
[02:40:40] <toast_> (or both)
[02:41:01] <les_w> well I have a few part timers
[02:41:05] <toast_> ah
[02:41:08] <les_w> machinists
[02:41:40] <les_w> we do ok in the little shop.
[02:41:45] <toast_> useful fellows to have about!
[02:41:57] <les_w> Revinue was a little over $300k last year.
[02:42:06] <les_w> revenue
[02:42:09] <les_w> duh
[02:42:10] <les_w> haha
[02:43:07] <les_w> I use retired guys...otherwise they would be working at home depot
[02:43:16] <toast_> woow
[02:43:44] <toast_> toolmaker type guys?
[02:43:56] <toast_> general machinsts, what kind of skill level
[02:45:08] <a-l-p-h-a_> a-l-p-h-a_ is now known as a-l-p-h-a
[02:46:19] <les_w> yeah general machinists
[02:48:00] <toast_> cool
[02:48:44] <les_w> I do electronics a lot
[02:48:52] <les_w> here is the workstation:
[02:48:57] <les_w> http://imagebin.org/9885
[02:50:45] <toast> wow
[02:50:53] <toast> hey you might know this
[02:51:00] <toast> do you have any paperless/papered chart recorders
[02:51:16] <toast> or, do you ever do polar charting
[02:51:27] <les_w> a lot of pretty expensive Agilent and B&k gear
[02:51:38] <les_w> naw I just use computers
[02:51:43] <toast> ah
[02:52:11] <les_w> soon the electronics and acoustics area get a new building!
[02:52:20] <toast> haha
[02:52:38] <toast> more toys =(
[02:52:40] <les_w> it's just in a section of the machine shop right now
[02:53:36] <les_w> well that little thing on the table is the whistle. Machined in the shop.
[02:53:41] <toast> lol
[02:53:50] <les_w> heh
[02:54:11] <les_w> and it's making enough money to build a new lab
[02:54:37] <toast> yeah man, you're not doing half bad.
[02:55:18] <les_w> Well, I invent things. Some made a little chunk of change. Beer money.
[02:55:31] <les_w> hahaha
[02:55:38] <toast> hahah.
[02:55:42] <toast> a lot of beer.
[02:55:57] <les_w> I guess
[02:56:30] <toast> the important part is you've got toys
[02:56:32] <toast> to make stuff with.
[02:56:50] <les_w> The Agilent vector impedance analyzer is the latest addition
[02:56:50] <fenn> hrmph
[02:56:58] <fenn> you dont need toys to make stuff
[02:57:00] <les_w> the big white box on the stand
[02:57:09] <les_w> very very powerful
[02:57:27] <les_w> used for mechanical and acoustical analysis
[02:57:38] <toast> what kind of applications do you use it for
[02:58:05] <les_w> right now, acoustic transducer design
[02:58:28] <les_w> It's a nice little $44k toy
[02:58:35] <toast> i mean i guess a better question is
[02:58:39] <toast> i'm not familiar with that
[02:58:47] <les_w> the most expensive thing in the work station I guess
[02:58:48] <toast> so what exactly does it examine
[02:58:57] <fenn> impedance :P
[02:59:05] <toast> and what physical systems are you checking with it
[02:59:06] <les_w> RIGHT!
[02:59:13] <toast> i gathered that much
[02:59:18] <les_w> haha
[02:59:36] <toast> but i'm guessing, for 44k, that it's a bit more useful than a DMM from radioshack
[02:59:58] <les_w> well I can take mechanical dynamic things and make lumped parameter system functions
[03:00:02] <les_w> or it does
[03:00:21] <toast> as long as something in the dynamic system changes the impedence of an electrical system in some way
[03:00:26] <les_w> like machine tools or speakers or microphones or car suspensions
[03:00:28] <toast> or do you have different probes or something
[03:01:00] <les_w> yea all manner oftransduction devices and probes
[03:01:09] <toast> like, could you plug an LVDT into it
[03:01:13] <toast> and watch the LVDT?
[03:01:16] <toast> that kind of thing?
[03:01:19] <les_w> sure
[03:01:24] <toast> nice
[03:01:30] <toast> temperature probes, anything
[03:01:33] <toast> that would be a neat thing
[03:01:37] <les_w> old technology but still used in many aircraft
[03:01:39] <toast> what kind of functions does it do
[03:01:45] <les_w> very robust
[03:01:51] <toast> like, differential measurement, etc?
[03:01:54] <fenn> why would you use this box vs a data acquisition card/pc/software?
[03:02:06] <toast> accuracy, i'd imagine
[03:02:15] <toast> * toast waits for the real answer
[03:02:21] <les_w> it's very very fast and NIST certified accurate
[03:02:31] <les_w> only a few in the country
[03:02:52] <fenn> and it has to be that fast for a 50khz signal?
[03:03:32] <fenn> i mean its a lot of money for convenience's sake
[03:03:43] <les_w> well right now I am looking at characteristic impedance of solder flux at up to 100 Megahertz
[03:03:57] <toast> and very accurately, i'd imagine
[03:03:59] <fenn> ah that's a bit different
[03:04:22] <les_w> I am mechanically shaking the stuff that fast
[03:04:35] <toast> some of the probes used only produce a tiny, tiny change
[03:04:43] <toast> like in temperature control systems.
[03:04:43] <les_w> right
[03:05:30] <les_w> right. I see a machine tool as just a bunch of laplace transforms haha
[03:05:37] <les_w> and you know those!
[03:06:07] <fenn> almost
[03:06:16] <fenn> you cant do static deflection with laplace transforms, right?
[03:06:30] <toast> when i was looking at some measurement instruments, the resolution was way out of the range of the PC card systems
[03:07:00] <toast> at least the ones i looked at, there's probably an expensive solution
[03:07:01] <les_w> a fourier transform might be more useful for static deflections
[03:08:01] <fenn> laplace is one of these things i hear about all the time but never really get
[03:08:38] <les_w> the green box on the shelf is the b&k analyzer. I used that to do a steering NVH issue on the ford taurus/sable platform
[03:08:59] <les_w> lots of laplace transforms there!
[03:09:19] <toast> i've never been exposed to laplace transforms yet
[03:09:23] <toast> i have a lot of math i need to take =(
[03:09:34] <toast> well not =(, but rather just haven't had it yet.
[03:10:02] <les_w> elementary differential equations usually is the first introduction to it
[03:10:54] <les_w> just as a method to solve linear homogeneous differential equations
[03:10:56] <toast> that would explain it
[03:11:14] <toast> i am so waiting to take those classes, i can't solve anything useful yet
[03:11:38] <les_w> turns integration and differentiation into multiplying and dividing
[03:11:45] <les_w> kindas handy.
[03:11:50] <les_w> kinda
[03:12:44] <toast> haha.
[03:13:01] <les_w> When I was in school we had four courses of calculus. then differential equations.
[03:13:10] <les_w> calculus can be hard
[03:13:11] <toast> same, i have yet to start calc
[03:13:15] <toast> kind of scared.
[03:13:16] <les_w> diff eq is easy.
[03:13:27] <les_w> I taught calculus a bit.
[03:13:38] <les_w> I was a TA
[03:13:43] <toast> what's the biggest problem students have
[03:13:47] <toast> practically
[03:13:49] <fenn> teachers
[03:13:49] <toast> in learning calculus
[03:13:57] <toast> hmm.
[03:14:24] <les_w> They don't understand that calculus is to make hard complicated things simple and easy
[03:14:34] <les_w> that's what it's for!
[03:14:38] <toast> i agree!
[03:14:41] <toast> i just can't do it yet.
[03:14:57] <toast> i guess i'll see when i get there.
[03:15:03] <les_w> yeah
[03:15:16] <fenn> calculus has a bad reputation for no good reason
[03:15:32] <fenn> like 'oo scary calculus'
[03:15:39] <les_w> it's just shocking how simple some things become. Hit me like a brick wall.
[03:15:53] <les_w> I could not believe it!
[03:16:09] <fenn> example please
[03:16:44] <les_w> but for sure...F=dp/dt is why were not living in caves
[03:17:18] <les_w> The force on an object equals the rate of change of the object's momentum
[03:17:33] <les_w> just too simple!!!
[03:17:46] <toast> hahah.
[03:18:16] <toast> i know why to choose certain components in machines, i just want the math to give me a ballpark of dimensions
[03:18:29] <toast> it frustrates me to read books and to have to skip the equations.
[03:18:37] <les_w> actually....if you understand that equation....and don't push on ropes...you are a mechanical engineer.
[03:18:54] <toast> ?
[03:19:03] <fenn> les_w: i've actually never seen that equation.. had to look up what "p" was
[03:19:11] <les_w> you pull ropes.
[03:19:20] <toast> hahahah.
[03:19:20] <toast> i get it.
[03:19:41] <toast> provided the rope isn't preloaded :o
[03:19:47] <les_w> you have seen it fenn
[03:19:57] <fenn> no wai!
[03:20:25] <les_w> dp/dt in special cases is mass times accel
[03:20:28] <les_w> f=ma
[03:21:17] <les_w> p=mv
[03:21:43] <toast> i was trying to come up with an inappropriate joke for that
[03:21:45] <toast> but i can't
[03:21:51] <toast> i apologize if i've let you gentlemen down.
[03:21:56] <les_w> haha
[03:23:16] <toast> i'm really wondering how much work there'd be for a small shop with some accurate equipment
[03:23:36] <toast> for gagemaking, and machining/metrological accessories
[03:24:14] <toast> i'd eventually like to be able to produce full, turnkey machines for said things
[03:24:20] <toast> small drum lathes and grinders
[03:24:38] <fenn> have you made any machines before?
[03:24:46] <les_w> less and less in this country I fear
[03:24:46] <toast> no =(
[03:24:57] <fenn> toast: why not?
[03:24:59] <toast> i've just been exposed to a lot of guys who do that
[03:25:04] <toast> on a big scale, and very accurate
[03:25:07] <toast> and i really want to do it.
[03:25:24] <toast> fenn: i'm very much strapped for cash, and live on the third floor of an apartment
[03:25:27] <fenn> perfect
[03:25:51] <fenn> no sense in starting off with the best facilities and practically finished raw materials
[03:25:53] <toast> but i'm slowly working toward it, i.e. with the scraping thing this semseter
[03:25:57] <les_w> I use the shop in the invention process. I know what I want and I just make it right then. no work orders. just simple drawings
[03:26:11] <Skullworks-PGAB> I don't think there are any full size engine lathes made in USA anymore.
[03:26:19] <toast> Skullworks-PGAB: there are
[03:26:25] <toast> custom machines are still made here
[03:26:35] <Skullworks-PGAB> not custom
[03:26:41] <fenn> hardinge?
[03:26:44] <Skullworks-PGAB> custom don't count
[03:26:56] <toast> oh, i agree, no real engine lathes are made here
[03:27:16] <toast> isn't hardinge in taiwan now?
[03:27:26] <toast> hardinge/bridgeport
[03:27:27] <Skullworks-PGAB> I don't think Hardinge makes an engine lathe - just chuckers and turret
[03:27:50] <Skullworks-PGAB> Full size - 15-17"
[03:27:56] <fenn> uh, guess i dont know what an engine lathe is then
[03:28:17] <toast> floor standing, tailstock
[03:28:24] <Skullworks-PGAB> its your most common lathe
[03:28:35] <les_w> my tools get only little use usually...but when I need them I need them. I have to be able to make most anything.
[03:28:46] <Skullworks-PGAB> usually with a 3 or 4 jaw chuck
[03:28:55] <les_w> not fast...but anything
[03:29:03] <les_w> the cnc is fast though.
[03:29:06] <toast> les_w: i agree
[03:29:07] <les_w> pretty much
[03:31:47] <Skullworks-PGAB> Engine lathes are called that because using offset centers you could turn crakshaft journals
[03:32:04] <toast> i did not know that!
[03:32:10] <toast> (the source of the name)
[03:33:24] <Skullworks-PGAB> Yeah college filled my head with lots of trivial details I thought I'd never use
[03:33:57] <toast> toast is now known as toastydeath
[03:34:01] <ds2> Hmmmmm
[03:34:02] <Skullworks-PGAB> but watching the film on how O2 cylinders was made was fun...
[03:34:22] <ds2> what are O2 tanks made of?
[03:34:39] <Skullworks-PGAB> a steel disc about 4" thick
[03:34:53] <Skullworks-PGAB> set on a draw die
[03:35:20] <ds2> O2 and steel? how do they keep the steel from rapidly oxidizing?
[03:35:27] <Skullworks-PGAB> an explosive shape charge placed in the center
[03:35:35] <toastydeath> chromium
[03:35:50] <toastydeath> and nickel, i suppose
[03:35:55] <Skullworks-PGAB> the die is in the bottom center of a 60 ft deep tank
[03:36:17] <Skullworks-PGAB> the die is pumped down to a vaccuum
[03:36:22] <les_w> one example for small shops:
[03:36:26] <les_w> http://imagebin.org/9886
[03:36:43] <Skullworks-PGAB> tank is filled with water and they they blow the charge
[03:36:47] <les_w> this is the ezgo throttle position sensor
[03:36:56] <les_w> it was made right here
[03:36:58] <les_w> with emc
[03:37:03] <toastydeath> nice
[03:37:07] <les_w> it is in production
[03:37:23] <ds2> Hmmm does stainless work against pure oxygen?
[03:37:24] <les_w> now molded of course
[03:37:35] <toastydeath> ds2: stainless steel
[03:37:37] <fenn> uh, explosives? i thought they used a really big press
[03:37:58] <ds2> toastydeath: I know but is it good against pure O2
[03:38:09] <toastydeath> yeah, it's the chromium oxide
[03:38:10] <toastydeath> on the surface
[03:38:17] <toastydeath> does nicely
[03:39:00] <ds2> is that layer that strong?
[03:39:05] <fenn> ds2: there's a process called 'pickling' which uses acid to remove the iron from the surface, leaving only the chromium/nickel exposed
[03:39:09] <Skullworks-PGAB> they are moving to new processes - the cycle time to drain the tank and place a new blank takes time
[03:39:21] <toastydeath> ds2: yeah
[03:39:31] <toastydeath> it's nonporous
[03:39:36] <toastydeath> so just that little bit is great.
[03:39:37] <ds2> fenn: as in passivating?
[03:39:40] <fenn> right
[03:39:56] <ds2> I know how SS works, just donno how it would fair with more O2
[03:40:14] <ds2> but if that a it is that strong.. Hmmm
[03:40:29] <toastydeath> stainless is stainless because chromium oxide doesn't permit oxygen through, it's completely nonporous
[03:41:08] <toastydeath> whereas iron oxide is porous and allows air through to continually rust it deeper
[03:41:34] <Skullworks-PGAB> woot - servos will arrive on monday
[03:41:39] <ds2> ah that makes sense
[03:41:46] <les_w> I'm having big problems with a SS part right now
[03:42:16] <Skullworks-PGAB> type?
[03:42:38] <les_w> 17-7ph Rh950
[03:43:03] <les_w> and I'm getting about 1/10 the fatigue strength I should
[03:43:12] <Skullworks-PGAB> that half hard?
[03:44:45] <les_w> it's a dual hardening mechanism aerospace alloy. I hardens both by austenite-martensite transformation at cryo temps and a 950c precipitation hardening mechanism
[03:45:33] <les_w> endurance limit is 200kpsi and I'm getting about 20k
[03:45:44] <les_w> something bad bad wrong
[03:45:52] <Skullworks-PGAB> * Skullworks-PGAB is a bit fuzzy on the typical hardnes scales other than C or brinell
[03:46:06] <les_w> it's about C48
[03:46:46] <Skullworks-PGAB> ok - and matl came with certs I assume
[03:46:56] <les_w> yeah.
[03:47:48] <les_w> tool works assigned some phd metallurgists to help me.
[03:47:56] <les_w> we have meeting tommorow.
[03:48:13] <toastydeath> whack.
[03:48:26] <Skullworks-PGAB> I once got a lot of 416 that was miss labeled as 440 - what grief that was until I had my heat treat vendor send out a sample for a spectrograph.
[03:48:58] <les_w> We are doing SEM x-ray to verify composition
[03:49:06] <toastydeath> ah HA
[03:49:08] <fenn> wish you could get a mass spec on ebay for $100
[03:49:15] <toastydeath> so you CAN use a SEM for metallurgical processes
[03:49:15] <les_w> heh
[03:49:17] <fenn> i mean they arent complicated or anything
[03:49:59] <les_w> well everhart-thornley x-ray from the SEM is not all that quantitative but they want to do it
[03:50:20] <Skullworks-PGAB> but calibration can be a bitch and you really don't want to know the price of NIST certified standards costs.
[03:50:58] <les_w> well in this it's not a big issue
[03:51:06] <les_w> it's not even required
[03:51:19] <les_w> I just don't want the damn thing to break
[03:51:23] <les_w> and it does
[03:51:38] <les_w> I'm not getting my numbers
[03:51:44] <les_w> not even close
[03:52:04] <Skullworks-PGAB> was talking about a mass spect - if it needed calibration
[03:52:25] <fenn> why would it be hard to self-calibrate?
[03:52:31] <les_w> I think we are crapping up the surface in the austenite conditioning phase
[03:52:48] <les_w> it's a thin foil
[03:53:22] <les_w> we are also electropolishing it and that may majorly crap it up
[03:53:42] <fenn> microcracking
[03:54:03] <les_w> looked at a lot of cracks in the sem
[03:54:09] <fenn> hydrogen embrittlement?
[03:54:28] <les_w> nope..bakes out in austenite conditioning
[03:55:19] <fenn> If steel is exposed to hydrogen at high temperatures, hydrogen will diffuse into the alloy and combine with carbon to form tiny pockets of methane at internal surfaces like grain boundaries and voids. This methane does not diffuse out of the metal, and collects in the voids at high pressure and initiates cracks in the steel.
[03:55:34] <les_w> this is about the highest fatigue strength alloy on the planet....and my parts are about as strong as soda crackers
[03:56:14] <les_w> phds say zero hydrogen embrittlement
[03:56:37] <fenn> i'm just throwing out guesses, but maybe so are they...
[03:56:43] <les_w> they are
[03:56:51] <les_w> we havn't a clue really
[03:57:32] <les_w> I strongly suspect electropolishing
[03:57:44] <fenn> try it without the electropolishing then
[03:57:47] <les_w> we are
[03:58:03] <les_w> doing a test matrix of that tomorrow
[03:59:00] <les_w> a lot of money and a lot of jobs depend on fixing this
[03:59:10] <les_w> it has to be something simple
[04:00:27] <les_w> I mean 17-7 is good stuff
[04:00:35] <les_w> that's why I specified it
[04:12:57] <fenn> i'm reading this thread on practicalmachinist and it seems there really are no manual lathes made in usa anymore
[04:14:25] <fenn> oh oh spoke too soon
[04:14:27] <les_w> i wouldn't be suprised
[04:14:27] <fenn> Monarch Lathe LP is still building EE and Series 614 mainly for the Goverment. They also are building L&S AVS lathes to go on Navy ships. These are very expensive machines. A new EE is around $90,000 and a 614 would run close to $200,000.
[04:14:48] <les_w> ee is one tough little lathe
[04:15:07] <fenn> military is (reasonably) quite picky about where things are made
[04:16:15] <les_w> We make some custom in house machines
[04:16:35] <les_w> thread grinders for ball and cross roller screws and such
[04:17:26] <les_w> they are crazy expensive
[04:17:51] <fenn> i've heard of cross roller linear ways, but cross roller screws?
[04:18:04] <les_w> hehe
[04:18:06] <les_w> yeah
[04:18:17] <les_w> I say too much?
[04:19:33] <les_w> big hunks of steel. Laser interferometer position feedback.
[04:19:59] <les_w> extreme temperature control
[04:21:15] <les_w> anyway I don't make them. I make whistles.
[04:21:28] <fenn> and chairs
[04:21:32] <les_w> haha
[04:22:41] <les_w> and try to see through lead solder.
[04:23:00] <les_w> I get the weird stuff...only the weird stuff
[04:24:38] <fenn> i would love to see your lab notebooks from over the years
[04:25:07] <les_w> I only have a couple
[04:26:01] <les_w> I only put stuff in there when Ihave to....it's signed dated and witnessed.
[04:26:19] <les_w> I much prefer not doing that
[04:26:21] <fenn> too bad
[04:26:36] <fenn> i write down whenever it's a good idea, and when its a bad idea too
[04:27:10] <les_w> oh I write it up...just not in the lab book. the lab book is a legal document.
[04:27:17] <fenn> right
[04:27:46] <les_w> Things in the lab book end up belonging tosomeone else.
[04:27:50] <fenn> oh?
[04:27:53] <fenn> that sucks
[04:28:10] <les_w> yeah.
[04:28:21] <les_w> that's why I started a business
[04:28:45] <les_w> but the whistle belongs to someone else.
[04:28:52] <les_w> however
[04:29:02] <les_w> I got a little consideration
[04:29:18] <les_w> enough purina engineer chow to get by
[04:29:20] <les_w> hahaha
[04:30:57] <les_w> well on that note...time for bed
[04:31:01] <les_w> later!
[04:31:07] <fenn> nite
[13:44:26] <Ziegler> anyone got a link to some literature on probing theory / technique?
[14:06:07] <skunkworks> can anyone see this? http://www.sokolik.com/
[14:20:49] <Ziegler> looking
[14:21:00] <Ziegler> says under construction
[14:24:09] <skunkworks> Good :)
[14:25:00] <skunkworks> Thank you
[15:13:05] <optimum> lo, just got this message in dmesg:
[15:13:51] <optimum> 2 256 514 isnt much larger than the previous 1 785 942 is it?
[15:14:05] <optimum> same order of scale
[15:15:18] <optimum> * optimum is away, please point to lerneaen_hydra instead
[16:20:07] <toast> pew pew pew
[16:20:31] <anonimasu> toast!
[16:20:55] <anonimasu> how's the µm's working out?
[16:35:10] <Guest569> Guest569 is now known as skunkworks_
[16:42:37] <DanielFalck> cradek: in AXIS, is there a means of editing the tool table? I know you can reload it, I just wonder if I am missing the tool table editor that is in Mini and Tkemc. Thanks,
[16:43:08] <anonimasu> DanielFalck: I think there's one comming for 2.2
[16:43:13] <DanielFalck> ok thanks
[16:43:47] <DanielFalck> I'm playing with cutter comp right now
[16:43:52] <anonimasu> ok :)
[16:52:49] <lerneaen_hydra> got this message in dmesg; http://pastebin.ca/654543. the anomalous value doesn't seem to be that much larger, same order of scale, any ideas?
[16:53:26] <toast> anonimasu: ?
[16:53:35] <toast> you know i don't know metric =(
[16:53:48] <toast> (anonimasu)
[16:53:52] <anonimasu> gah
[16:54:07] <anonimasu> 1µ = 0.00003937 Inch
[16:54:16] <toast> oh, they're going pretty well.
[16:57:02] <toast> talkin' about sine plates on some forum
[16:58:06] <toast> i like the "linear motion" forum on cnczone
[16:58:10] <toast> that is my kind of forum!
[17:06:00] <jepler> lerneaen_hydra: for a 1.7GHz machine, 1785942 cycles is about 1ms and 2256514 cycles is about 1.3 milliseconds. If something stopped emc2's realtime threads for running for .3 milliseconds, that represents 15 missed 20 microsecond BASE_PERIODs, which is enough to kill software encoder counting and could also stall stepper motors with software step generation
[17:14:04] <default_> default_ is now known as Ziegler
[17:20:34] <alex_joni> evening all
[17:21:12] <DanielFalck> alex_joni: hi alex
[17:21:23] <alex_joni> hi THERE
[17:21:32] <alex_joni> err..
[17:24:28] <alex_joni> hi there
[17:24:32] <alex_joni> DanielFalck: what's new?
[17:25:22] <DanielFalck> alex_joni: I'm playing with cam stuff at the moment. apt360 still
[17:25:40] <DanielFalck> playing with cutter comp in emc too
[17:25:52] <DanielFalck> how are you doing?
[17:30:03] <lerneaen_hydra> jepler: 300µS? that's a lot!
[17:30:10] <lerneaen_hydra> funny, I wonder why that happened
[17:30:31] <lerneaen_hydra> is there any way to diagnose possible reasons for the latency?
[17:30:54] <lerneaen_hydra> I can imagine that that would do a lot of bad stuff
[17:31:40] <jmkasunich_> jmkasunich_ is now known as jmkasunich
[17:33:30] <alex_joni> lerneaen_hydra: it's best to start by looking at the troubleshooting page in the wiki
[17:33:35] <alex_joni> lots of info there
[17:33:40] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, right
[17:33:41] <lerneaen_hydra> naturally
[17:33:59] <alex_joni> DanielFalck: pretty fine, I'm glad we got elections :)
[17:35:08] <DanielFalck> the election is coming up soon isn't it?
[17:35:15] <alex_joni> it already started
[17:35:19] <alex_joni> didn't you get a ballot?
[17:35:27] <DanielFalck> yes, I voted already
[17:35:31] <alex_joni> same here ;)
[17:35:48] <toast> ballots!
[17:37:14] <Jymmm> Bart Simpson for President!
[17:38:59] <lerneaen_hydra> alex_joni: ah, it would appear that I have a motherboard with an intel 845g northbridge
[17:39:03] <toast> vote for toasty!
[17:39:09] <toast> as president, i promise i will:
[17:39:11] <toast> do nothing
[17:39:11] <alex_joni> lerneaen_hydra: might be SMI then
[17:39:13] <lerneaen_hydra> according to the wiki SMI can cause breakage
[17:39:40] <lerneaen_hydra> the funny thing is I didn't see that much latency when running the rt test
[17:39:46] <lerneaen_hydra> something like 33µS max
[17:39:48] <Jymmm> toast: Well, that was your first political lie
[17:39:53] <lerneaen_hydra> not that good, but not awful
[17:39:54] <alex_joni> lerneaen_hydra: you only need to look at overruns
[17:40:00] <alex_joni> when running the latency test
[17:40:11] <alex_joni> if it's SMI you'll get overruns once every xx seconds
[17:40:33] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, which period does the rt test run at?
[17:40:33] <Jymmm> SMI???
[17:40:39] <lerneaen_hydra> something that all computers should be able to do?
[17:40:58] <toast> how is that a political lie
[17:41:05] <toast> just ask my professors at my old college
[17:41:12] <toast> i am an expert on not doing anything.
[17:41:15] <toast> i have CREDENTIALS
[17:41:21] <alex_joni> lerneaen_hydra: 64 seconds is the SMI period
[17:41:28] <lerneaen_hydra> the thing is that I ran it for 30 minutes or so and didn't get an overrun
[17:41:38] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm, for all systems?
[17:41:38] <alex_joni> hmm.. then it's most likely something else
[17:41:41] <lerneaen_hydra> crap
[17:41:49] <Jymmm> SMI???
[17:41:50] <alex_joni> were you doing anything special when it happened?
[17:41:56] <alex_joni> Jymmm: some Intel crap
[17:41:58] <lerneaen_hydra> no, it was just sitting there
[17:42:02] <lerneaen_hydra> not doing anything
[17:42:06] <alex_joni> SMI (System Maintenance Interrupt)
[17:42:17] <lerneaen_hydra> emc was running, machine power on (in axis)
[17:42:18] <alex_joni> lerneaen_hydra: power saving?
[17:42:21] <alex_joni> cpu cooler?
[17:42:27] <alex_joni> who knows..
[17:42:34] <Jymmm> SMI error? New machine?
[17:42:34] <alex_joni> harddisk spindown?
[17:42:41] <lerneaen_hydra> I've disabled everything regarding S3 states and stuff
[17:42:51] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: new machine?
[17:42:53] <lerneaen_hydra> the thing is that it's a compaq machine
[17:43:00] <lerneaen_hydra> Jymmm: sorta, 1.8ghz celeron
[17:43:11] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: define "sorta"
[17:43:22] <lerneaen_hydra> probably under 5 years old
[17:43:34] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: but a new machien for you, right?
[17:43:39] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah
[17:43:52] <lerneaen_hydra> fruits of dumpster diving
[17:44:34] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: If you're getting HW type error msgs (NMI, SMI, etc) best to try somethign else. Might be a reason it was in the dumpster.
[17:44:52] <alex_joni> Jymmm: it's not HW type error messages
[17:44:58] <alex_joni> it was a RT overrun message
[17:45:03] <lerneaen_hydra> Jymmm: well, it was dumped as part of a "keep machines for XX years" thing
[17:45:07] <lerneaen_hydra> along with 40 others
[17:45:10] <alex_joni> and SMI is known to break RT
[17:46:51] <Jymmm> Enabled in kernel??? http://www.captain.at/xenomai-smi-high-latency.php
[17:47:13] <alex_joni> Jymmm: yeah, that's what we did too
[17:47:18] <alex_joni> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?FixingDapperSMIIssues
[17:48:56] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: APM and ACPI disabled too?
[17:49:03] <lerneaen_hydra> yep
[17:49:18] <lerneaen_hydra> the bios is relatively limited (it's an oem box) but everything I could see
[17:49:34] <lerneaen_hydra> maybe it would be easiest to shove some other hardware into it
[17:49:44] <lerneaen_hydra> another motherboard/ram/cpu
[17:50:03] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: watch mostly for chipsets
[17:50:17] <lerneaen_hydra> Jymmm: huh?
[17:50:21] <lerneaen_hydra> which?
[17:50:47] <Jymmm> If you have a fairly new motherboard with Intel chipset (e.g. Intel 82845 845 (Brookdale) is a very common one), it most likely has SMI (System Maintenance Interrupt). SMI is a real-time killer and to avoid latencies of several 100 microseconds up to a few milliseconds, you need to disable them.
[17:50:54] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, right
[17:51:13] <lerneaen_hydra> the other system I can put inside it is an amd duron 800mhz
[17:51:38] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: Does the mobo allow overclocking?
[17:51:44] <lerneaen_hydra> alex_joni: can you run the RT test on the live CD?
[17:51:54] <lerneaen_hydra> Jymmm: no, the bios is very limited, it
[17:51:59] <lerneaen_hydra> 's a compaq system
[17:52:01] <lerneaen_hydra> gah
[17:52:14] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: on the AMD system you mentioned
[17:52:25] <lerneaen_hydra> oh
[17:52:27] <lerneaen_hydra> uh
[17:52:28] <lerneaen_hydra> probably
[17:52:32] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, you can
[17:52:42] <lerneaen_hydra> it's a "standard" pc
[17:52:47] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: If so, you have better tweaking capabilities I'd suspect.
[17:52:52] <lerneaen_hydra> some via chipset
[17:52:55] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, that's what I was thinking
[17:53:34] <lerneaen_hydra> it appears to be something of an enthusiast motherboard, as vcore and multiplier are set vie dip switches
[17:54:15] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: I've noticed that on some mobo's if you disable everything that's unused (WOL, secondary IDE controller, COM ports, USB, etc) you can gett better RT Test results.
[17:54:31] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, that seems sane
[17:54:39] <lerneaen_hydra> fewer interrupts and stuff
[17:55:02] <Jymmm> well, fewer things to poll anyway.
[17:55:26] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah
[17:55:30] <lerneaen_hydra> less stuff happening
[17:55:46] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: Run the RT test for 12-24 hours too (if you can). I've had the ovl max jump up near the end
[17:55:55] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, that long?
[17:56:13] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: at LEAST 4 hours minimum for good results.
[17:56:25] <lerneaen_hydra> oh I see
[17:56:36] <lerneaen_hydra> can you run the RT test from the liveCD?
[17:56:42] <Jymmm> yes
[17:56:44] <lerneaen_hydra> sweet
[17:57:13] <lerneaen_hydra> do you think I can swap the intel hardware with the AMD hardware without linux dying?
[17:57:29] <Jymmm> I've had ovl max goto 13000ns in 4 hours, then 12 hours later goto 15600ns
[17:57:38] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, I se
[17:57:39] <lerneaen_hydra> *see
[17:57:49] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: If you have th eitme to play, try it. Nothing to loose.
[17:58:26] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: But I doubt it'll work cleanly.
[17:58:52] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm, right
[17:58:54] <lerneaen_hydra> thought so
[17:58:57] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: dont you have another hdd ?
[17:59:14] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, but how would that help?
[17:59:27] <Jymmm> Installing ubuntu only take 25 minutes
[17:59:35] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: a fresh install
[17:59:45] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm, true, there's not that much to configure
[17:59:47] <Jymmm> then copy over what you want ot preserve
[17:59:49] <lerneaen_hydra> just save the old /etc/fstab
[17:59:59] <lerneaen_hydra> nothing else on that box
[18:00:05] <lerneaen_hydra> everything's over the network
[18:00:06] <Jymmm> why fstab?
[18:00:10] <alex_joni> it'll work without issues
[18:00:20] <alex_joni> the only thing that will need adjustment is X
[18:00:48] <lerneaen_hydra> Jymmm: oh, I have some network share settings I don't want to have to re-figure out
[18:00:57] <lerneaen_hydra> samba on dapper was a PITA to get working
[18:01:01] <Jymmm> alex_joni: He's going from AMD to Intel... likely there will be over modules specific for architecture
[18:01:01] <lerneaen_hydra> needed some special commands
[18:01:18] <Jymmm> s/over/other/
[18:01:19] <lerneaen_hydra> intel to amd actually ;)
[18:01:25] <Jymmm> =)
[18:03:23] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: IMHO... In the long run, it's not worht the potential headaches to save 10 minutes from swapping mobo's keeping the hdd in tact, then potentially wondering if there was an issue that a fresh install would have resolved.
[18:03:56] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah
[18:03:57] <lerneaen_hydra> true
[18:05:23] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: Plus with all new (different) HW, (PS, IDE cables, HDD, etc) you eliminated those as potential issues as well.
[18:05:47] <Jymmm> KISS
[18:06:05] <alex_joni> Jymmm: not in my experience
[18:06:20] <alex_joni> usually ubuntu has them all in one place, and just loads teh needed one on boot
[18:07:31] <Jymmm> alex_joni: I've been doin this crap for 25+ years, and learned the hard way. Basing upon the OS alone is just not worth it
[18:08:17] <Jymmm> Undiscovered bugs as example.
[18:09:15] <alex_joni> Jymmm: I agree
[18:09:23] <alex_joni> but the times I tried it, it worked ok
[18:09:30] <alex_joni> especially with dapper
[18:09:49] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: Be sure to upgrade the BIOS to the latest as well. Also if your mobo has things like onboard RAID be sure to upgrade that as well
[18:10:15] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: or disable the onboard RAID in BIOS
[18:10:26] <lerneaen_hydra> Jymmm: right
[18:10:47] <Jymmm> (if you can that is, some BIOS don't let you), or it's a jumper on the mobo.
[18:10:50] <lerneaen_hydra> Jymmm: I've also found keeping the old install to be a source of pain
[18:11:15] <lerneaen_hydra> it would appear it wasn't just me being stupid
[18:12:46] <Jymmm> Whenever someone has asked me to perform an "upgrade", I take the time to backup their data, wipe the hdd, MFG test the hdd for defects, install the new os, make custom tweaks, restore data, and the systems have lasted at least 5 years without issues.
[18:13:36] <Jymmm> It take much longer, but the system lasts a LOT longer.
[18:14:05] <Jymmm> Hell, I've got system out there going for 8 years =)
[18:14:11] <anonimasu> hi
[18:14:29] <Jymmm> replaced a PS along the way, or install a bigger hdd, but that's about it.
[18:15:56] <Jymmm> howdy anonimasu
[18:16:11] <anonimasu> what's up?
[18:16:32] <Jymmm> ssdd
[18:16:58] <anonimasu> :)
[18:17:39] <lerneaen_hydra> Jymmm: do you know of a page that has reccomended settings for bios stuff for RT?
[18:18:03] <lerneaen_hydra> some options I have no idea as to what they do nor whether they are beneficial or detrimental to RT
[18:18:17] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: I just used common sense.... If it's something you won't need, it just makes sense to disable it.
[18:18:37] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: you can always enable it if you need it
[18:18:41] <lerneaen_hydra> what about things like cache, pci settings, etc
[18:18:51] <lerneaen_hydra> some things are really obscure
[18:19:19] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: KISS... Keep it simple stupid.
[18:19:39] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: BIOS tweaking on timings and such can be a PITA
[18:19:44] <lerneaen_hydra> I don't see how you can apply kiss here?
[18:19:50] <lerneaen_hydra> s/?/.
[18:20:00] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, exactly
[18:20:08] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: If you don't know what it is, dont muck with it =)
[18:20:16] <lerneaen_hydra> right :D
[18:20:22] <Jymmm> again KISS =)
[18:20:53] <Jymmm> Just set it to "default" then you can always change later on, and know what DID work if you forget.
[18:21:42] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: Disable PnP OS, one less thing for the OS to deal with.
[18:21:56] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, disable?
[18:22:21] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: Yeah, let the BIOS assign them.
[18:24:24] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm, is there an emc live cd torrent?
[18:24:32] <lerneaen_hydra> the linuxcnc.org webpage is quite slow
[18:24:41] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: How I see it is like this... If the BIOS doesn't assign things upon power up, then the cpu/os has to deal with them. Since you're not doing things like adding/removing a scanner (as exampe), there's really not a lot that will be changing all the time.
[18:25:18] <lerneaen_hydra> so it's not a static assignment?
[18:25:33] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: Not since the death of IDE =)
[18:25:50] <lerneaen_hydra> ah, ok
[18:26:02] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: http://dsplabs.utt.ro/~juve/emc/
[18:26:21] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: http://dsplabs.utt.ro/~juve/emc/get.php?file=emc2-ubuntu6.06-desktop-i386.iso
[18:26:44] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: MD5SUM: 6607223ce924e1c49a9e833f560048be
[18:26:44] <lerneaen_hydra> right that's quite a bit faster
[18:27:04] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: say "thank you alex"
[18:27:36] <lerneaen_hydra> heh
[18:27:46] <lerneaen_hydra> where's it hosted?
[18:27:53] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: say "thank you alex"
[18:28:04] <lerneaen_hydra> ah, a university :)
[18:28:31] <lerneaen_hydra> * lerneaen_hydra gives alex_joni a cookie
[18:28:49] <Jymmm> alex_joni: This needs to be added as a shell script to the next release http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TroubleShooting#RTAI_Latency_test
[18:29:51] <Jymmm> lerneaen_hydra: and use an external video card will help big time.
[18:30:05] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, already figured that one out
[18:30:13] <alex_joni> * alex_joni declines on the cookie
[18:30:18] <lerneaen_hydra> :O
[18:30:20] <alex_joni> lerneaen_hydra: no cookie at 9PM :P
[18:30:25] <lerneaen_hydra> how can you not eat cookie?
[18:30:29] <lerneaen_hydra> cookie always good
[18:30:30] <Jymmm> alex_joni: GOT MILK?
[18:30:34] <lerneaen_hydra> cookie cookie cookie
[18:30:39] <lerneaen_hydra> good enough for me
[18:31:49] <LawrenceG> someone has been eating biscuits in my bed....
[18:32:15] <alex_joni> Jymmm: http://img134.exs.cx/img134/6163/gotmilk0lj.jpg
[19:22:48] <toast> toast is now known as toastydeath
[19:27:12] <Jimmybondi> hi #emc (and all in here :- ) )
[19:27:30] <toastydeath> hello uh
[19:27:31] <toastydeath> you!
[19:29:22] <Jimmybondi> i have a small problem:
[19:29:35] <Jimmybondi> i configured ec for 5axis
[19:29:40] <Jimmybondi> +m
[19:29:55] <Jimmybondi> but then i see X Y Z and A B
[19:30:10] <toastydeath> k?
[19:30:18] <Jimmybondi> but my postproc iss configured for X Y Z an B C
[19:30:28] <toastydeath> oh, i can't help with that.
[19:30:30] <toastydeath> someone else can.
[19:30:39] <Jimmybondi> k
[19:30:53] <Jimmybondi> i'm in time x.D
[19:41:21] <Jymmm> alex_joni: That's just a after-school snack...
[19:56:09] <cradek> yay, I bought an R2D2
[19:56:21] <cradek> err, R2E3
[20:00:20] <toastydeath> lol
[20:02:48] <anonimasu> :)
[20:06:59] <cradek> Jimmybondi: in emc 2.1, you'll have to configure X Y Z A B C and just not use A. In emc 2.2 you will be able to choose which axes you want.
[20:10:23] <Jimmybondi> dot2? where to get?
[20:10:35] <alex_joni> it's not out yet
[20:10:39] <Jimmybondi> last i find was 2.1.7
[20:10:44] <Jimmybondi> k
[20:10:47] <cradek> "will be"
[20:10:55] <alex_joni> Jimmybondi: for now the sensible thing to do is use 2.1.7 and use 6 axes
[20:11:02] <alex_joni> err.. set up 6 axes, and use 5
[20:11:05] <cradek> sorry did not mean to tease you
[20:11:11] <cradek> I agree with alex_joni
[20:11:48] <Jimmybondi> k - time to build a new PC
[20:11:57] <alex_joni> need some sand?
[20:12:09] <Jimmybondi> padden - sand?
[20:12:18] <alex_joni> for silicon chips
[20:12:24] <Jimmybondi> oh no
[20:12:28] <Jimmybondi> x.D
[20:12:40] <alex_joni> Jimmybondi: it just sounded like you're really doing it from scratch :P
[20:12:42] <Jimmybondi> only a faster cpu
[20:13:02] <Jimmybondi> i've installed and driven axis some times
[20:13:15] <alex_joni> any first time impressions or suggestions?
[20:13:35] <Jimmybondi> suggests: none until now
[20:13:52] <Jimmybondi> imps: as win-ser looks very difficult
[20:13:58] <alex_joni> oh, wow :)
[20:14:08] <alex_joni> what part of it?
[20:14:19] <Jimmybondi> needs some time to find out where to find anything in confs
[20:14:30] <Jimmybondi> win-user
[20:15:07] <cradek> I suspect the average windows user can't retrofit a machine tool
[20:15:32] <alex_joni> ok, just trying to understand the things you're having problems with, to make it more user-friendly
[20:15:36] <Jimmybondi> what do you think is the limit in step-rate at a 2200MHz real clock AMD CPU?
[20:15:50] <Jimmybondi> ok - problems:
[20:15:56] <alex_joni> Jimmybondi: do you mean emc-specific confs? or machine confs?
[20:16:01] <alex_joni> err.. linux confs?
[20:16:18] <Jimmybondi> i'm not a normal user (i did it like overkill)
[20:16:33] <Jimmybondi> and to setup 5 axis iss a little bit horror
[20:16:48] <Jimmybondi> sry my terrible english
[20:16:53] <Jimmybondi> i'm german
[20:17:16] <alex_joni> Jimmybondi: I'd tell you to talk german, but the others wouldn't understand much
[20:17:29] <alex_joni> but your english is just fine..
[20:17:53] <Jimmybondi> @alex_joni as i don't know how to explain i use a german word :- )
[20:17:58] <Jimmybondi> and about conf:
[20:18:03] <Sier> hm..
[20:18:10] <Jimmybondi> not emc alone and not machine alone
[20:18:33] <Jimmybondi> the combination to tell emc wha my machine iss ....
[20:18:37] <Jimmybondi> e.q. 5 axis
[20:18:44] <Sier> emc? == big storage company?
[20:18:56] <alex_joni> Sier: different emc
[20:19:08] <alex_joni> Sier: check /topic #emc
[20:19:11] <Sier> oh ok :(
[20:19:15] <alex_joni> Jimmybondi: then tell me in german
[20:19:59] <Jimmybondi> when i first tried to conf out 5ax i have to edit several files
[20:20:07] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[20:20:30] <Jimmybondi> and it's not simply to findout where to look ....
[20:21:28] <Jimmybondi> first defineall in core_stepper
[20:21:44] <alex_joni> Jimmybondi: right
[20:21:49] <Jimmybondi> then setup in stepper_...
[20:22:18] <Jimmybondi> and this as win-user not simple to understand :- )
[20:22:26] <Jimmybondi> is
[20:22:33] <alex_joni> Jimmybondi: there is work on a GUI for configuration
[20:22:39] <Jimmybondi> wow
[20:22:42] <Jimmybondi> great
[20:22:55] <Jimmybondi> thats what a lot of people missing i think
[20:22:59] <alex_joni> Jimmybondi: but if you figured out how to do it.. then it means you have the potential to use emc2 to the max ;)
[20:23:17] <alex_joni> a GUI for config won't ever use emc2 to it's configurability and flexibility
[20:23:17] <Jimmybondi> i hope so :- )
[20:23:39] <Jimmybondi> ok - not the maximum - but a fundamental setup ....
[20:25:09] <alex_joni> http://axis.unpythonic.net/01185733075
[20:26:41] <Jimmybondi> wow
[20:26:51] <Jimmybondi> thats a great step i think
[20:27:24] <alex_joni> it won't do 5-axes machines I think..
[20:27:26] <Jimmybondi> i've google a lot of time for "simply" eplained instructions on configuration
[20:27:38] <alex_joni> how do you drive 5 axes? parport?
[20:27:41] <alex_joni> 2 parports?
[20:27:53] <Jimmybondi> yes
[20:28:21] <Jimmybondi> but working atm 3ax at one
[20:28:27] <CIA-24> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: fix bogus limits exceeded warning in Y on lathe
[20:28:46] <Jimmybondi> additionals will came when i'm "enhanced" x.D
[20:29:12] <alex_joni> ok
[20:30:27] <Jimmybondi> several days ago i postet a link to a small movie ...
[20:30:39] <Jimmybondi> mechanics are ready to start ...
[20:31:13] <alex_joni> posted where?
[20:31:16] <Jimmybondi> http://irc.global-radio.ch/img/5Achsen.avi
[20:32:33] <alex_joni> cool machine :D
[20:32:38] <alex_joni> was that emc2 controlled?
[20:32:40] <Jimmybondi> anyone told: never seen a "dremel" on such machine :- )
[20:32:51] <Jimmybondi> not - mach3
[20:33:24] <Jimmybondi> now i've fitted a HF-Spindle at 0,75kW
[20:33:45] <Jymmm> Gawd I hope HF != Harbor Freight
[20:33:59] <Jimmybondi> l.o.l
[20:34:21] <Jymmm> Jimmybondi: Does it?
[20:34:54] <Jimmybondi> 30krpm @ 550Hz
[20:35:05] <Jimmybondi> high frequency
[20:35:10] <Jimmybondi> i think
[20:35:14] <Jymmm> wheh... ok
[20:35:44] <Jimmybondi> i've got a dmaged ISEL-Spindle
[20:35:53] <Jimmybondi> bearings are totally damaged
[20:36:06] <Jymmm> but bearings can be replaced
[20:36:06] <Jimmybondi> and i got 2 hybdrid-bearings
[20:36:16] <Jimmybondi> and it works well
[20:36:43] <Jimmybondi> of course - but the place where to fit are damaged too
[20:37:00] <Jimmybondi> in german its called lagersitz
[20:36:59] <Jymmm> ah, that aint good
[20:37:04] <Jimmybondi> one moment
[20:37:12] <Jymmm> in english it's called fubar
[20:37:26] <Jimmybondi> k
[20:37:43] <Jymmm> Jimmybondi: FUBAR == Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition
[20:37:49] <cradek> 'bearing seat' maybe
[20:38:05] <anonimasu> ouch
[20:38:07] <anonimasu> yeah
[20:38:10] <anonimasu> that's a hard one to fix properly
[20:38:15] <alex_joni> yeah, bearing seat is the name
[20:38:32] <Jimmybondi> a friend has welded some material and i made fit on my lathe ...
[20:38:49] <Jymmm> unless bore it out, hoping you still have enough meat left AND can find the right sized replacemtn
[20:38:56] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[20:39:01] <Jimmybondi> 3 hours to save roundabout 400$
[20:39:16] <anonimasu> how true is the spindle running and does it get hot?
[20:39:29] <Jimmybondi> a little bit warm
[20:39:41] <Jimmybondi> measured 70°C
[20:39:48] <Jimmybondi> at 30krpm
[20:39:54] <anonimasu> that's pretty warm
[20:39:57] <Jymmm> 158F
[20:39:59] <Jimmybondi> at the outer ring
[20:40:29] <Jimmybondi> its warm - ok - but there are hybrid bearings - ceramic blls
[20:40:32] <anonimasu> err actually that's really warm..
[20:40:33] <Jimmybondi> balls
[20:40:59] <Jimmybondi> limit iss above 100°C
[20:43:16] <Jimmybondi> from where do you come alex_joni? (because you understand german)
[20:43:36] <Jymmm> alex_joni: comes from Mars
[20:43:44] <Jimmybondi> l.o.l
[20:43:59] <Jimmybondi> E.T. 47
[20:44:14] <Jimmybondi> 0(4*14duck4*0)15
[20:44:44] <Jymmm> Jimmybondi: Lil too personal a question to be asking me if he has an Extra Testical (or 47 of them)
[20:45:20] <Jimmybondi> i meant part 47 of E.T.
[20:45:36] <Jimmybondi> like Rocky 6 o something like that
[20:46:00] <Jimmybondi> a little joke iss a must have
[20:46:04] <Jimmybondi> x.D
[20:46:37] <alex_joni> Jimmybondi: romania
[20:46:42] <Jimmybondi> k
[20:47:03] <alex_joni> but a special town with lots of german people (at least it used to have many)
[20:47:39] <Jimmybondi> i knew that there a lot of pople speaking german ...
[20:47:46] <Jimmybondi> my pa iss sometimes there
[20:47:57] <Jimmybondi> pa = dad
[20:48:59] <toastydeath> 70 deg bearings isn't that bad
[20:49:30] <toastydeath> not on bigger machines, anyway
[20:49:57] <toastydeath> some machines use little heaters to simulate the bearing friction temperature when the spindle isn't running
[20:50:40] <anonimasu> toastydeath: hm, the heat isnt so bad if it dosent move from 70 deg's..
[20:51:04] <anonimasu> or goes ~
[20:51:10] <Jimmybondi> thats the only poblem:
[20:51:16] <toastydeath> 70-90 deg isn't bad
[20:51:36] <Jimmybondi> i've to turn it on half an hour before working to get temp
[20:51:47] <toastydeath> how much does the spindle drift
[20:51:49] <toastydeath> what temperature is the room
[20:52:01] <toastydeath> what's the machine made out of (aluminum, steel)
[20:52:03] <Jimmybondi> the bearigs are C3 - it means the are not prloaded
[20:52:08] <Jimmybondi> preloaded
[20:52:23] <toastydeath> yeah they're still gonna get warm
[20:52:36] <toastydeath> all bearings do it except aerostatic bearings
[20:52:43] <anonimasu> yeah..
[20:52:42] <toastydeath> even hydrostatic bearings warm up
[20:52:45] <anonimasu> certainly
[20:52:52] <anonimasu> but do they hit a limit?
[20:53:04] <toastydeath> the question is what's the ambient temp, and what is the linear error you're seeing
[20:53:16] <toastydeath> anonimasu: yes, it's like a self limiting thing
[20:53:23] <anonimasu> toastydeath: hm, how does that work?
[20:53:25] <toastydeath> the room temp eventually balances out heat removal with heat generation
[20:53:47] <toastydeath> usually takes like, 3 hours for spindle temperatures to stabalize
[20:53:48] <anonimasu> that only works if the spindle housing has enough thermal capacity..
[20:53:50] <anonimasu> ofcourse..
[20:53:54] <anonimasu> and if everything is ok
[20:53:54] <toastydeath> it's more a function of the room
[20:53:59] <Jimmybondi> the most common problem o bearings iss the centrifugal on the balls
[20:54:02] <toastydeath> any thermal system is going to be self limiting
[20:54:05] <Jimmybondi> not the temp
[20:54:12] <anonimasu> toastydeath: and if the bearing seats isnt exactly true..
[20:54:26] <toastydeath> the bearings still have a stablized temperature
[20:54:33] <Jimmybondi> if you grease by oil
[20:54:35] <toastydeath> and then it wanders up and down.
[20:54:51] <Jimmybondi> not grease - lbricate
[20:54:56] <Jimmybondi> lubricate
[20:55:02] <anonimasu> my next spindle will have oil running through it..
[20:55:05] <anonimasu> and a cooling jacket..
[20:55:18] <toastydeath> cooled oil limits spindle growth very effectively
[20:55:20] <toastydeath> veeerryy effectively
[20:55:27] <Jimmybondi> i lubricate by a low pressure oiled air
[20:55:43] <Jimmybondi> less 1 atm
[20:55:44] <anonimasu> but I need a griner so I can grind the bearing surfaces
[20:55:47] <toastydeath> but you have to be careful, because if the oil isn't controlled, it will make the spindle grow and shrink rapidly
[20:56:02] <anonimasu> grinder..
[20:56:14] <toastydeath> you're going to cool a grinder's spindle?
[20:56:25] <anonimasu> no.. I need a grinder to get my bearing and shaft good enough
[20:56:28] <toastydeath> ah
[20:56:45] <anonimasu> I need to grind the iso30 taper internally too
[20:56:52] <anonimasu> :) 
[20:56:54] <toastydeath> lol
[20:57:02] <anonimasu> lol?
[20:57:10] <toastydeath> that was a hearty laugh of agreement.
[20:57:21] <anonimasu> ah ok
[20:57:24] <toastydeath> but Jimmybondi
[20:57:32] <toastydeath> what exact numbers are you getting
[20:57:33] <Jymmm> * Jymmm hands anonimasu an angle grinder
[20:57:35] <anonimasu> toastydeath: im not sure about how to arrange the bearings though
[20:57:43] <toastydeath> that the spindle temperature is a problem
[20:57:52] <anonimasu> i think I'll copy the mighty spindle design
[20:58:07] <toastydeath> because even on jig borers, the spindle temperature wasn't a problem, and they get a couple tenths of positioning accuracy when they're machining
[20:58:26] <toastydeath> anonimasu: for what kind of deal
[20:58:30] <Jimmybondi> how many rpms do you want to get 4?14¿4?15
[20:59:31] <Jimmybondi> @toastydeath: what numbers 4?14¿4?15
[20:59:47] <Jimmybondi> bearings 4?14¿4?15
[20:59:49] <toastydeath> Jimmybondi: why is your spindle temperature a problem
[20:59:57] <anonimasu> toastydeath: tenth?
[20:59:59] <Jimmybondi> its not a problem
[21:00:05] <Jimmybondi> the temp
[21:00:09] <toastydeath> anonimasu: .0001"
[21:00:09] <Jimmybondi> i got 70°C
[21:00:13] <toastydeath> ten thousandth of an inch
[21:00:18] <toastydeath> tenths.
[21:00:23] <anonimasu> 0.02mm
[21:00:30] <Jimmybondi> after 30 minutes is it reached and never grow
[21:00:33] <anonimasu> that's goo d for a big machine
[21:00:46] <toastydeath> big machines have a positioning advantage over smaller machines
[21:00:55] <toastydeath> to a point, of course.
[21:00:57] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[21:01:12] <anonimasu> the mass of stuff helps when machining :)
[21:01:31] <toastydeath> plus it's easier to correct a big surface than it is a smaller surface
[21:01:46] <toastydeath> until you start to get really huge and the curve of the earth becomes a problem
[21:01:48] <anonimasu> toastydeath: seen the mighty spindle?
[21:01:49] <toastydeath> plus gravity
[21:01:53] <toastydeath> i have not, sir
[21:01:55] <anonimasu> wait a sec..
[21:02:47] <anonimasu> http://pergatory.mit.edu/rcortesi/portf/spindle/spindle3.JPG
[21:03:05] <anonimasu> but with a external motors
[21:03:12] <toastydeath> nice
[21:03:46] <toastydeath> LLNL opted to run the bearing oil right through the cooling unit, no jacket
[21:03:47] <anonimasu> that should work and I should be able to grind all bearing surfaces in one setup :)
[21:03:59] <Jimmybondi> nice - really - with that setup
[21:04:02] <Jimmybondi> but:
[21:04:02] <anonimasu> I've thought about that too
[21:04:09] <anonimasu> but, I cant grind the nose to that spec..
[21:04:17] <toastydeath> ah
[21:04:17] <anonimasu> I think
[21:04:26] <toastydeath> well they just drilled a hole
[21:04:28] <toastydeath> in the bearing
[21:04:36] <toastydeath> no grinding involved.
[21:04:36] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[21:04:41] <anonimasu> but for the spindle nose..
[21:04:43] <Jimmybondi> with external motor i would prefer only 2 bearings lower
[21:04:42] <toastydeath> ah
[21:04:43] <anonimasu> to keep the oil in the spindle..
[21:04:48] <Jimmybondi> and one upper
[21:05:05] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[21:05:17] <anonimasu> that makes it much easier to machine
[21:05:48] <anonimasu> or maybe I should go with good sealed bearings
[21:05:54] <anonimasu> and replace them after a while
[21:06:11] <alex_joni> * alex_joni wants a sisyphus
[21:06:17] <toastydeath> a who
[21:06:28] <alex_joni> toastydeath: CNC art :P
[21:06:29] <alex_joni> http://www.taomc.com/art_machines/sisyphus.htm
[21:06:30] <toastydeath> i'm not an incredible fan of ball bearings
[21:06:52] <toastydeath> they're pretty accurate and easy to use, though
[21:07:07] <Ziegler> that run on magnet?
[21:07:07] <anonimasu> toastydeath: there are pretty major things in other kind of bearings
[21:07:12] <anonimasu> major problems :)
[21:07:13] <Jimmybondi> @ anonimasu wha range of rpm's you're planning 4?14¿4?15
[21:07:18] <Jimmybondi> +t
[21:07:21] <toastydeath> anonimasu: not really?
[21:07:25] <anonimasu> 3 - 10krpm
[21:07:45] <Jimmybondi> hmmm
[21:07:47] <toastydeath> the support systems are the big downside
[21:08:01] <Jimmybondi> i think its a problem to use seales bearings
[21:08:07] <Jimmybondi> -s+d
[21:08:09] <alex_joni> Ziegler: yeah
[21:08:12] <alex_joni> http://www.taomc.com/art_machines/sisyphus/sisiii/s3dces6_800.JPG
[21:08:35] <toastydeath> nice
[21:08:38] <anonimasu> Jimmybondi: obviously I havent looked at any bearing specs yet..
[21:08:38] <anonimasu> :)
[21:08:50] <Jimmybondi> my hint:
[21:09:05] <toastydeath> aerostatic bearings are ultra fast and very accurate
[21:09:08] <Jimmybondi> take unsealed / unshielded ones
[21:09:10] <anonimasu> I guess I can call up a app engineer at skf.
[21:09:23] <Jimmybondi> and made a labyrinth-....
[21:09:25] <Jimmybondi> dichtung
[21:09:29] <Jimmybondi> one moment
[21:09:37] <anonimasu> labyrinth seal
[21:09:44] <Jimmybondi> of course
[21:10:03] <anonimasu> I dont know how to make them
[21:10:10] <anonimasu> or well where to get them
[21:10:15] <Jimmybondi> and then take a little air load on the inner parts of the spindle
[21:10:23] <Jimmybondi> with a little bit oil
[21:11:00] <Jimmybondi> i'll made a draw
[21:11:07] <Jimmybondi> its very simple
[21:11:07] <toastydeath> air spindle!
[21:11:11] <toastydeath> make an air spindle!
[21:11:16] <Jimmybondi> l.o.l
[21:11:19] <toastydeath> 250k rpm air spindle!
[21:11:20] <anonimasu> lol
[21:11:30] <anonimasu> toastydeath: can you turn me the bearings?
[21:11:35] <anonimasu> toastydeath: for free :p
[21:11:39] <toastydeath> haha the irony is i could, but i don't know how to tune them
[21:11:40] <Jimmybondi> 10atm and 5m^3 per minute
[21:11:44] <toastydeath> we don't make "normal" air bearings
[21:11:53] <toastydeath> we make the porus media ones
[21:11:58] <anonimasu> toastydeath: they are out of my league/precision..
[21:12:09] <toastydeath> i dunno man, they're real low maitnence
[21:12:20] <toastydeath> dunno the cost of a couple radial bearings though
[21:12:25] <anonimasu> hehe
[21:12:29] <anonimasu> porous graphite
[21:12:30] <toastydeath> i'd have to ask, i really never asked
[21:12:40] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is shutting down for maintenance
[21:12:43] <anonimasu> what precision do you need on them?
[21:12:48] <anonimasu> well clearance?
[21:12:51] <alex_joni> good night all
[21:12:55] <toastydeath> couple .02 mm's
[21:13:00] <anonimasu> oh..
[21:13:01] <anonimasu> damn
[21:13:04] <anonimasu> that's easy :)
[21:13:16] <toastydeath> with a grinder on a small spindle? no doubt!
[21:13:37] <toastydeath> if you make an oriface bearing, it's not hard either
[21:13:55] <anonimasu> I have 3 good lathes.. 2 of them with dro's..
[21:14:02] <toastydeath> well it would be a lot of lapping?
[21:14:11] <toastydeath> like you'd have to make a cylinder lap and a ring lap
[21:14:15] <toastydeath> to get the smoothness
[21:14:18] <anonimasu> yeah
[21:14:26] <toastydeath> but the bearings last forreeeveerrr
[21:14:30] <toastydeath> and push dirt OUT of the bearing
[21:14:35] <anonimasu> I have grinding stones.. for cylinders at work..
[21:14:46] <anonimasu> ;)
[21:14:49] <toastydeath> however you want a machine spindle stop if you lose air pressure
[21:14:57] <toastydeath> and a pressure cylinder for a spare
[21:14:57] <anonimasu> well, that's easy stuff :)
[21:15:03] <toastydeath> because if the spindle loses air...
[21:15:06] <anonimasu> yeah
[21:15:07] <toastydeath> the spindle is now scrap
[21:15:17] <anonimasu> please do get specs on that material
[21:15:23] <anonimasu> :)
[21:15:25] <toastydeath> haha i can't
[21:15:29] <toastydeath> i know exactly how they're made
[21:15:29] <toastydeath> but i can't tell you
[21:15:34] <toastydeath> i signed papers =((
[21:15:38] <anonimasu> well, what the fsck it costs..
[21:15:42] <toastydeath> i can tell you the price tho
[21:15:43] <toastydeath> monday
[21:15:45] <anonimasu> :np..
[21:15:55] <anonimasu> the porous bearings I saw were just a hole..
[21:16:04] <anonimasu> err surface..
[21:16:08] <toastydeath> yeah
[21:16:11] <toastydeath> that's all the porus ones are
[21:16:16] <anonimasu> with good precision
[21:16:20] <toastydeath> a porus surface that has been tuned to the right porosity
[21:16:26] <toastydeath> to give the proper lift and pressure
[21:16:37] <anonimasu> I dont get what you mean by tuned
[21:16:46] <toastydeath> the porosity is altered
[21:16:56] <toastydeath> so that the right amount of air goes through the bearing at the desired pressure
[21:17:03] <toastydeath> which produces the gap, which determines the rigidity of the bearing
[21:17:06] <anonimasu> yeah but isnt that what you spec when you buy material
[21:17:12] <toastydeath> nope
[21:17:15] <anonimasu> altering porousity is kind of hard to do..
[21:17:19] <toastydeath> yep
[21:17:41] <toastydeath> that's why air bearing companies are very secretive about how they do their bearings
[21:17:59] <anonimasu> then you can forget about the question..
[21:18:03] <toastydeath> ?
[21:18:06] <anonimasu> dosent matter if I cant make them anyway..
[21:18:17] <toastydeath> ah
[21:18:28] <toastydeath> well, there are books on porous media design
[21:18:43] <toastydeath> that tell you how to do it
[21:18:49] <toastydeath> but you still have to kind of design your own technique
[21:19:06] <toastydeath> i can get you the price of the bearing, to compare to other bearing types
[21:19:10] <toastydeath> they're an OEM item
[21:19:33] <toastydeath> (if you want)
[21:20:35] <anonimasu> it's not nescessary it ends up being too complicated
[21:20:43] <toastydeath> no problem.
[21:20:55] <anonimasu> if I have to develop a process for making them I might aswell start selling them..
[21:21:01] <toastydeath> haha
[21:21:13] <toastydeath> well i meant, do you want the price of the bearings
[21:21:13] <toastydeath> from my company
[21:21:22] <toastydeath> to compare against other bearing options
[21:21:25] <anonimasu> hm, sure
[21:21:38] <toastydeath> k
[21:21:55] <anonimasu> I think in the end I'll end up spending 400 on a good set of bearings.
[21:21:59] <anonimasu> or so..
[21:22:09] <toastydeath> hmm
[21:22:19] <anonimasu> my real problem is actually the drawbar
[21:22:40] <toastydeath> ha
[21:22:40] <anonimasu> I cant make retainer knob grippers
[21:22:47] <toastydeath> why not?
[21:22:59] <anonimasu> because they should be in spring steel
[21:23:04] <toastydeath> ah
[21:23:10] <toastydeath> too expensive/can't work it?
[21:23:22] <anonimasu> I cant work it to the tolerances needed
[21:23:25] <anonimasu> probably
[21:23:29] <toastydeath> i'd probably make a hinged gripper
[21:23:35] <toastydeath> that closed as it went up into the drawbar
[21:23:40] <anonimasu> a tool dropping out at 10krpm..
[21:23:51] <anonimasu> :P
[21:23:54] <toastydeath> ha
[21:24:01] <toastydeath> that would be exciting for a couple seconds
[21:24:10] <anonimasu> heh until you die
[21:24:13] <toastydeath> hahah yes =(
[21:24:31] <anonimasu> a 10krpm tool/holder falling out has some energy
[21:24:38] <anonimasu> 5kw 10krpm
[21:24:48] <toastydeath> nice.
[21:25:06] <anonimasu> *hides*
[21:25:11] <anonimasu> though I doubt that would help
[21:25:48] <toastydeath> a good enclosure can stop an awful lot of things
[21:26:10] <toastydeath> for a drawbar, i'd probably make a hinged gripper
[21:26:31] <toastydeath> little spring to open it up, and the drawbar tube to force it shut
[21:26:47] <anonimasu> hm, they whould be like a collet out of spring steel
[21:27:38] <toastydeath> are you sure about that?
[21:27:44] <toastydeath> that's an awfully long way to close on a collet
[21:27:47] <anonimasu> yeah the ones I've seen are like that
[21:27:51] <toastydeath> weird man
[21:27:59] <anonimasu> they open like that
[21:28:14] <anonimasu> and you have disc springs pull it back into the spindle
[21:28:42] <toastydeath> whack
[21:29:13] <anonimasu> *looking for picture*
[21:29:23] <fenn> i'd like to see some destruction
[21:29:50] <fenn> pictures of a 10krpm tool+holder failure aftermath
[21:30:06] <anonimasu> fenn: build one yourself
[21:30:12] <Jymmm> I wonder why he was trying to get his 5 axis machien working under emc, looked like it worked under mach
[21:30:14] <anonimasu> and watch it fail
[21:30:39] <anonimasu> toastydeath:
[21:30:41] <anonimasu> ah..
[21:30:43] <anonimasu> it's a set of balls
[21:30:51] <anonimasu> http://www.clamprite.com/images/drawbar2.gif
[21:31:09] <anonimasu> sorry I had it wrong.
[21:31:26] <fenn> um, really?
[21:31:43] <Jymmm> wth is a "disc spring" ?
[21:31:49] <anonimasu> fenn: yeah..
[21:32:03] <anonimasu> fenn: have you experienced that sometime?
[21:32:17] <Jimmybondi> you mean me Jymmm?
[21:32:19] <fenn> experienced what?
[21:32:22] <Jymmm> Jimmybondi: yeah
[21:32:39] <Jimmybondi> i don't like to buy for every machine a high-performance-pc
[21:32:49] <anonimasu> being wrong :)
[21:32:54] <toastydeath> that's a cool toolholder
[21:32:59] <Jimmybondi> emc at 1400MHz P4 works well
[21:33:03] <fenn> anonimasu: it's a hobby of mine actually
[21:33:07] <Jimmybondi> mach needs 3GHz
[21:33:11] <anonimasu> fenn: being weong?
[21:33:13] <anonimasu> wrong?=
[21:33:17] <anonimasu> ^_^
[21:33:18] <fenn> sure its great fun
[21:33:19] <anonimasu> hehe
[21:33:24] <Jymmm> Jimmybondi: If mach works, PC hardware is cheap.
[21:33:46] <anonimasu> toastydeath: what do you think about how it looks internally?
[21:34:25] <Jimmybondi> 2nd: in less than 2 years i'ld like to drop Win at all
[21:34:41] <Jimmybondi> never vista
[21:34:45] <Jimmybondi> :- )
[21:35:22] <Jymmm> Jimmybondi: I understand that. But if the controller works for ya, why fix it (so to speak)?
[21:35:30] <anonimasu> toastydeath: I think you have a outer jacket pressing down to lock the balls in place
[21:35:32] <fenn> i am wondering if some kind of nylon fabric/webbing would be enough to slow down a loose toolholder
[21:35:42] <fenn> s/slow down/stop
[21:35:46] <toastydeath> anonimasu: yeah, the drawbar tube
[21:35:58] <anonimasu> with a round ( )
[21:36:02] <toastydeath> also anonimasu, what do you mean how it looks internally
[21:36:02] <Jymmm> wth is a "disc spring" ?
[21:36:13] <toastydeath> Jymmm: bellville spring, maybe?
[21:36:12] <anonimasu> Jymmm: a disc that springs
[21:36:15] <fenn> Jymmm: you know those rubber popper things you get at the grocery store?
[21:36:15] <anonimasu> (
[21:36:19] <Jimmybondi> what force do you calculate for the plate-springs anonimasu
[21:36:31] <toastydeath> oh my god what are we talking about
[21:36:34] <toastydeath> i am so lost
[21:36:38] <Jymmm> fenn: explain a bit more
[21:36:39] <Jimmybondi> l.o.l
[21:36:49] <anonimasu> there's a spec for how much it needs to hold..
[21:37:01] <Jimmybondi> what should i say? i've to translate every word x.D
[21:37:02] <anonimasu> rather a standard that most manufacturers spec..
[21:37:03] <fenn> Jymmm: its a half-sphere of rubber, a toy. you push on it and it flips halfway inside out and then jumps in the air
[21:37:25] <toastydeath> oh man fenn those are awesome
[21:37:26] <anonimasu> toastydeath: drawbar tube..
[21:37:33] <toastydeath> just a tube, man
[21:37:43] <Jymmm> fenn: ok, that I understand, but those look metal,
[21:37:46] <Jimmybondi> do you have a page where to look about the in-force anonimasu
[21:37:47] <toastydeath> the same kind of holder is used in air fittings
[21:38:04] <fenn> Jymmm: ok well, drill a hole in the center and turn it into metal, then stack up 50 of them, alternating each time
[21:38:19] <anonimasu> Jymmm: they are metal.. spring steel
[21:38:24] <Jymmm> ah
[21:38:45] <Jymmm> and a good old fashion spring wouldn't do?
[21:38:50] <toastydeath> i'd be inclined to say that the springs are for drawbar release
[21:38:52] <toastydeath> not holding force
[21:38:59] <anonimasu> yep
[21:39:07] <anonimasu> the holding force are infinite..
[21:39:09] <toastydeath> i wouldn't want anything springy holding a 10" face mill
[21:39:09] <anonimasu> almost..
[21:39:24] <fenn> huh? the springs are what holds the drawbar "in" so the tool cant fly out if the machine turns off
[21:39:33] <anonimasu> yeah
[21:39:33] <Jymmm> toastydeath: think brakes on a car
[21:39:37] <toastydeath> hydraulics
[21:39:42] <anonimasu> then you push the drawbar it drops the tool
[21:39:48] <fenn> right
[21:39:55] <toastydeath> er, our machines use hydraulics to hold the tool in
[21:40:03] <anonimasu> toastydeath: scary shit
[21:40:04] <toastydeath> so it never overcomes the spring force
[21:40:09] <anonimasu> ah
[21:40:17] <anonimasu> toastydeath: though that's illogical
[21:40:24] <toastydeath> how is that illogical?
[21:40:36] <fenn> i think its more of a safety feature
[21:40:53] <anonimasu> well, if you have a cylinder in place for loosening the spindle it's stupid not to..
[21:41:17] <toastydeath> not to what?
[21:41:22] <toastydeath> use it to tighten?
[21:41:25] <anonimasu> yeah
[21:41:28] <toastydeath> indeed
[21:41:31] <Jimmybondi> understand right: hold the tool hydraulical?
[21:41:37] <anonimasu> Jimmybondi: help the disc springs
[21:41:51] <toastydeath> i've had tools get sucked right out of the holders
[21:41:59] <toastydeath> i do not want springs being the only thing holding my tool in the holder
[21:42:30] <Jimmybondi> ok - springs are not last wrd - but:
[21:42:30] <toastydeath> i want the machine to break before my tool comes out and kills me
[21:42:37] <anonimasu> http://www.p-one.com.tw/images/accessories/a-5.gif
[21:42:45] <Jimmybondi> when using a cylinder:
[21:42:51] <anonimasu> this is for holding the toolholder in the machine
[21:43:07] <fenn> so, any consensus on what it would take to safely stop a toolholder flying out at 10krpm?
[21:43:11] <Jimmybondi> you have to couple a statc cylinder to the turning spindle
[21:43:13] <toastydeath> physical restraint
[21:43:20] <Jimmybondi> static
[21:43:32] <fenn> i mean once it's already flying
[21:43:33] <toastydeath> Jimmybondi: which is easy
[21:43:37] <anonimasu> fenn: yeah..
[21:43:44] <anonimasu> fenn: carbon wire..
[21:43:53] <fenn> oh that's a good idea
[21:43:54] <toastydeath> fenn: a cage
[21:44:11] <fenn> i was thinking of nylon strapping like on backpacks
[21:44:13] <toastydeath> we had a 20 lb bar get sucked out of the spindle of a lathe at some ridiculous speed
[21:44:23] <toastydeath> put nice big dent in the side of the machine cage
[21:44:30] <anonimasu> I've threw a 20kg toolholder over my head.
[21:44:45] <anonimasu> err maybe not 20.. but 10.. or so
[21:45:25] <anonimasu> :)
[21:45:28] <toastydeath> i don't think it's "safe" to do anything except put an enclosure around a machine
[21:45:29] <toastydeath> if you are concerned
[21:45:36] <anonimasu> yep
[21:45:42] <anonimasu> it was on a manual lathe..
[21:45:53] <toastydeath> i'd really like to make a good enclosure on manual machines
[21:45:55] <toastydeath> with like a knee button
[21:46:00] <toastydeath> to pop the door open to mic stuff
[21:46:49] <toastydeath> safetah
[21:46:56] <fenn> toastydeath: what i'm asking is what qualifies as an enclosure
[21:47:04] <Jymmm> toastydeath: you get duct tape and old newspaper
[21:47:06] <toastydeath> oh, aluminum in most cases
[21:47:19] <toastydeath> not like ultra thin aluminum, i should probably get the gauge
[21:47:27] <Jymmm> toastydeath: you get duct tape and old newspaper
[21:47:32] <toastydeath> but the idea is the aluminum deforms and catches the part
[21:47:38] <anonimasu> yep
[21:47:37] <Jymmm> toastydeath: you get duct tape and old newspaper
[21:47:41] <anonimasu> energy disspassion
[21:47:52] <toastydeath> Jymmm: and i am going to apply both of those to your mouth and hands
[21:47:59] <toastydeath> to prevent you from communicating
[21:48:18] <fenn> he's going to rub harsh newspaper on your palms as punishment
[21:48:24] <toastydeath> yes
[21:48:26] <toastydeath> with a 10k rpm spindle.
[21:48:33] <Jymmm> toastydeath: you dont get aluminum, it's too good for you, you can layer as much newspaper for your elclosure, that's it
[21:48:39] <toastydeath> it will have a saftey enclosure.
[21:48:49] <anonimasu> Jimmybondi: we are just messing around you dont need to translate everything
[21:49:09] <Jimmybondi> i'm reading every 2nd word
[21:49:15] <Jimmybondi> x.D
[21:49:55] <toastydeath> oh yeah well i read every third word.
[21:49:55] <toastydeath> beat THAT
[21:49:57] <Jymmm> fenn: I'll just apply duct tape to toastydeath's crotch.... that'll shut him up for a bit
[21:50:12] <Jymmm> fenn: till he screams removing it
[21:50:18] <toastydeath> i shave
[21:50:25] <Jymmm> TMI
[21:50:28] <toastydeath> hey man you went there.
[21:50:38] <toastydeath> now be a man about it.
[21:50:46] <Jymmm> I said crotch... never got personal about it
[21:50:56] <toastydeath> you got in the... ballpark?
[21:51:04] <toastydeath> BADUM TSH
[21:51:47] <toastydeath> okay back to our regularly scheduled programming.
[21:51:55] <Jymmm> toastydeath: Huh Uh... Just general body area, nothing about personal hygen
[21:52:08] <Jymmm> (ok kinkyness =)
[21:52:19] <toastydeath> why is cnczone ridiculous
[21:52:21] <toastydeath> so ridiculous
[21:53:08] <fenn> because they dont have irc (yet)
[21:53:14] <toastydeath> lordy.
[21:53:22] <toastydeath> that will be incredibly dangerous.
[21:53:49] <Jymmm> Ok, I'll start a new website and a direct link to here on irc. How's that?
[21:53:57] <toastydeath> no, please don't
[21:54:10] <Jymmm> I gots the bandwidth, that's for sure =)
[21:54:19] <toastydeath> speaking of webpages
[21:54:30] <toastydeath> what's everyone's preference regarding content management system
[21:54:31] <toastydeath> s
[21:54:39] <toastydeath> do it yourself, use a CME
[21:54:40] <Jymmm> toastydeath: fuck you
[21:54:47] <toastydeath> what?
[21:54:56] <Jymmm> toastydeath: hang on *sigh*
[21:55:24] <Jymmm> http://www.cmsmatrix.org/
[21:55:31] <fenn> toastydeath: wiki engines work pretty well for most things
[21:55:40] <Jymmm> http://www.opensourcecms.com/
[21:55:39] <fenn> i like dokuwiki
[21:56:04] <Jymmm> toastydeath: Try those they have live demos, dont ask opionons of CMS, it just doesn't work.
[21:56:21] <toastydeath> it's worked for me in the past
[21:56:33] <Jymmm> toastydeath: read my first comment
[21:56:48] <toastydeath> i decline
[21:56:57] <toastydeath> the other option is to do it myself
[21:57:02] <Jymmm> toastydeath: Let me reply it for you then... fuck you!
[21:57:13] <toastydeath> which is what i might do
[21:57:19] <Jimmybondi> ok - i'm not sure if the last whisky was so strong on me or if i don't understand english - but i wish a nice night ....
[21:57:19] <Jymmm> toastydeath: But ONLY inrespect to CMS's
[21:57:28] <Jimmybondi> see you tomorow ....
[21:57:32] <toastydeath> bye dude
[21:57:34] <Jymmm> Jimmybondi: G'Night
[21:57:59] <fenn> heh i thought he was italian
[21:58:23] <Jymmm> toastydeath: CMS opopnons really dont work... it's what you feel comfortable with. BEst bet it to try them out on those pages and see if it feels right to you.
[21:59:18] <toastydeath> well more i was trying to get an opinion on doing it yourself versus finding a cms
[21:59:42] <toastydeath> for a low-content page
[21:59:50] <Jymmm> toastydeath: Either way, try the live demos. If they dot work for you, you'll have ideas for your own and not reinvent the wheel
[21:59:54] <toastydeath> true
[22:00:01] <Jymmm> toastydeath: do what crack does
[22:00:02] <toastydeath> thanks for the links
[22:00:52] <Jymmm> toastydeath: this is what crack uses.... http://www.logarithmic.net/pfh/aether
[22:01:07] <Jymmm> toastydeath: bottom of every page... http://timeguy.com/cradek/
[22:02:27] <toastydeath> hmm!
[22:02:36] <toastydeath> that is kind of what i am looking for
[22:03:10] <Jymmm> toastydeath: and you can have existign content already and still use it
[22:04:22] <toastydeath> cool
[22:04:23] <toastydeath> that's another plus
[22:04:38] <Jymmm> toastydeath: I wasn't trying to be a total ass to you, just that I've heard WAY TOO MANY of the whole CMS opopnions thing before, that go on for hours and your still at the same spot.
[22:05:05] <toastydeath> yeah man, i understand
[22:05:06] <Jymmm> toastydeath: Being an op in ##php for too many years that is.
[22:05:26] <Jymmm> I just cut stright to the end is all =)
[22:05:30] <toastydeath> hahaha
[22:05:59] <Jymmm> toastydeath: hop in ##php for a moment, I'll show you something
[22:06:49] <Jymmm> toastydeath: did you get the msg from phpbot?
[22:06:55] <toastydeath> yep
[22:07:04] <Jymmm> I wrote that a year ago or so
[22:07:22] <toastydeath> haha
[22:07:31] <toastydeath> does it get that much use?
[22:07:31] <Jymmm> had to, it was getting really bad
[22:07:35] <toastydeath> nice.
[22:08:06] <Jymmm> too much use actually... Enough that I haven't hanged out in there for a few months.
[22:08:24] <Jymmm> I needed to walk away for a while.
[22:08:26] <toastydeath> yeah
[22:08:32] <Jymmm> serious burn out
[22:08:49] <toastydeath> that's why i ditched cs entirely
[22:08:54] <Jymmm> It was far easier for me to kick/ban someone, than to deal with their BS.
[22:09:05] <Jymmm> three keystrokes too
[22:09:08] <toastydeath> lol
[22:09:42] <Jymmm> just becasue they wouldn't listen/read the rules.
[22:10:25] <Jymmm> I'm still tired.... cut down tree overgrowing from neighrbors yard.
[22:11:14] <toastydeath> why is ##php ##php instead of #php
[22:11:30] <Jymmm> bombed the garage yesterday, bug sprayed all around the building today. will probably spray TOTAL GROUND KILL next week
[22:11:31] <toastydeath> i don't get this whole freenode thing
[22:11:38] <Jymmm> toastydeath: some freenode policy bs
[22:11:49] <toastydeath> whack
[22:11:54] <Jymmm> #<channame> is reserved for OFFICIAL channels
[22:12:12] <Jymmm> ##<channame> is not "official"
[22:12:51] <toastydeath> whack
[22:13:02] <toastydeath> OFFICIAL IRC
[22:13:10] <toastydeath> the internet: now with 100% more serious
[22:13:24] <Jymmm> The creator of PHP had a falling out with lilo coule years ago
[22:14:47] <Jymmm> Same BS, different day toastydeath
[22:15:31] <toastydeath> lol.
[22:15:32] <toastydeath> indeed
[22:15:42] <Jymmm> toastydeath: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Levin
[22:16:38] <toastydeath> cool
[22:23:45] <fenn> jeez that article totally gives the wrong impression
[22:24:49] <fenn> this is something lilo wrote, i think its more like what he was really about: http://www.openverse.com/~dtinker/agalmics.html
[22:26:52] <toastydeath> is this guy an asshole?
[22:27:06] <fenn> no he just has a lot of enemies
[22:27:14] <toastydeath> haha.
[22:27:27] <fenn> you may have noticed that there's some competition between irc networks
[22:29:14] <toastydeath> actually i'm oblivious to that
[22:29:27] <toastydeath> i will assume there is, though, for the sake of conversation
[22:29:33] <sed> Does anyone know if the DSPMC/IP from Vital systems is supported by EMC2?
[22:29:57] <fenn> sed: it is not
[22:30:27] <sed> bummer, anyone showing interst in it?
[22:31:16] <fenn> i've never heard of it
[22:31:22] <fenn> but that doesnt mean much
[22:31:27] <sed> http://www.vitalsystem.com/web/motion/dspmc.php
[22:31:57] <fenn> i think realtime ethernet is a promising area for EMC though
[22:32:27] <sed> its has its own dsp
[22:32:32] <toastydeath> isn't there that really low latency ethernet spec
[22:32:41] <toastydeath> i remember seeing that when i was into cluster computing
[22:33:03] <fenn> toastydeath: i dont think you need anything special
[22:33:09] <fenn> just dont use a hub
[22:33:18] <fenn> or, dont use a hub on a noisy subnet
[22:33:20] <toastydeath> well it dropped the latency to compete with the other highspeed cluster interconnects
[22:34:14] <fenn> * fenn is suspicious
[22:34:16] <toastydeath> not sure if emc would benifit from anything like that
[22:34:33] <toastydeath> if it ever went to ethernet stuffs
[22:34:37] <fenn> http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~mdw/papers/europar.pdf
[22:34:44] <toastydeath> ew a pdf?
[22:34:43] <fenn> 60us is good enuf for me
[22:34:47] <fenn> oh shut yer trap
[22:34:55] <toastydeath> that's what i needed right there, 60 us
[22:35:00] <toastydeath> excellent summart
[22:35:02] <toastydeath> *summary
[22:35:08] <fenn> that is on 100BT
[22:35:12] <fenn> X
[22:35:16] <fenn> blarg
[22:35:25] <toastydeath> close.
[22:35:27] <toastydeath> so close.
[22:36:20] <fenn> heh i guess that paper's pretty old - they're using 133MHz pentium's
[22:37:55] <toastydeath> ha nice.
[22:39:16] <fenn> a quick google survey shows you can get ethernet hardware in the 300ns range
[22:40:32] <fenn> overkill for a machine tool
[22:40:54] <toastydeath> serious ethernet business
[22:41:34] <fenn> oh and they're only $3k each
[22:42:13] <toastydeath> excellent price for the budget-minded consumer
[23:16:45] <fenn> anyone know if the "configuration druid" is going to be included with emc2.2? (here http://axis.unpythonic.net/01185733075 )
[23:17:12] <cradek> I hope so
[23:22:09] <fenn> woah .ini is a real syntax - opened one in konqueror and got syntax highlighting
[23:36:38] <toastydeath> pew pew pew
[23:40:02] <Guest202> Guest202 is now known as skunkworks
[23:46:17] <Jymmm> There is gigabit ehternet ya know
[23:46:28] <Jymmm> 10GigE needs glass though
[23:47:56] <Jymmm> There's also zero-switching too, but you too poor to even ask about that =)
[23:51:08] <toastydeath> Jymmm: there's also beowulf, infiniband, quadrix, myranet, etc