#emc | Logs for 2007-08-04

[00:00:06] <Skullworks-PGAB> were almost the same
[00:00:19] <toastydeath> that's something china will always win for the forseeable future
[00:00:48] <toastydeath> but even china has to import dies if they are of sufficient complexity
[00:00:59] <toastydeath> and that seems to be working out very well for them
[00:01:12] <toastydeath> rather than worrying about training someone to build and work on the die in house
[00:01:50] <toastydeath> medical components, aerospace, scientific instrumentation
[00:01:52] <toastydeath> that kind of work
[00:02:14] <toastydeath> but i could eat my words in ten years, i guess
[00:02:56] <Skullworks-PGAB> china is allready becoming a player in the satilite booster service
[00:03:18] <Skullworks-PGAB> russia is still king for heavy loads
[00:04:24] <SWPadnos> you need to hope that fuel prices stay high or increase - low shipping costs make China manufacturing economical
[00:04:27] <Skullworks-PGAB> they built huge launch vehicles - those Czar's were not small
[00:04:48] <toastydeath> china's econonmy makes chineese manufacturing economical
[00:05:07] <SWPadnos> but getting the stuff here cheaply makes it competitive
[00:05:10] <Skullworks-PGAB> that too - China now has the largest merchant marine fleet
[00:05:28] <SWPadnos> just like 1500-500 years ago :)
[00:05:39] <toastydeath> we've completely legislated our manufacturing ability out of the water
[00:05:49] <Skullworks-PGAB> Scurge of the RED Dragon
[00:05:55] <toastydeath> i'd blame us more than china
[00:06:13] <toastydeath> china is sitting over there, being china
[00:06:16] <Skullworks-PGAB> we did mess things up
[00:06:18] <toastydeath> we're over here, suing people over spilling coffee
[00:06:41] <Skullworks-PGAB> EPA - OSHA - Unions - Colleges
[00:06:43] <toastydeath> indeed
[00:06:43] <SWPadnos> I don't think it's regulations that screw us. think about it - if your company makes widgets, then the salary paid to all the employees can't be enough to buy all the widgets the company makes, or the company would have no profit
[00:07:06] <toastydeath> regulations that do not take into consideration basic principles of economics do screw us
[00:07:30] <SWPadnos> bullshit. would you work for $5 an hour?
[00:07:30] <Skullworks-PGAB> OK case in point - Outsourcing for profit
[00:07:31] <toastydeath> not every regulation, like ones that allow me to keep my fingers
[00:07:41] <toastydeath> SWPadnos: uh, i don't make minimum wage
[00:07:50] <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, as a male heterosexual porn star. sure.
[00:07:54] <toastydeath> so minimum wage doesn't affect me
[00:07:58] <SWPadnos> I assume you make more than minimum wage ...
[00:07:58] <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, but part time only...
[00:08:14] <toastydeath> and uh, if the choices are "make 5 dollars an hour" versus "don't work at all"
[00:08:18] <toastydeath> i'm going to take the 5 dollars an hour
[00:08:29] <toastydeath> because if the employer HAS to pay me 5, and i'm only worth four
[00:08:33] <Skullworks-PGAB> I just saw the Simpson's movie last weekend - most of the anamation was outsourced to Korea
[00:08:35] <toastydeath> they're going to buy a robot to do my job
[00:08:38] <SWPadnos> sure - if you're forced to do so by extreme outside forces (like, no income and a mortgage)
[00:09:01] <toastydeath> uh, if you are only worth 5 dollars an hour
[00:09:05] <toastydeath> as an employee
[00:09:12] <toastydeath> what are you going to do?
[00:09:21] <toastydeath> you don't have skills that are worth more than that, economically
[00:09:56] <a-l-p-h-a> Skullworks-PGAB, it's been like that for eons
[00:10:00] <SWPadnos> no - my point is that the workforce in the US/Canada has to take some responsibility for the problem. if you were willing to weork for less, and pay more for stuff, then the trade deficit with China would be nowhere near as bad
[00:10:07] <toastydeath> ah
[00:10:31] <SWPadnos> I just don't think it's fair to say that legislation is "the problem" - it's much more complex than that
[00:10:32] <toastydeath> i agree, to a certain extent
[00:10:44] <toastydeath> i didn't mean to place sole blame on legislation
[00:10:45] <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, it's not so much the cost of employees, but the benefits and pensions... that's what killing GM.
[00:11:08] <SWPadnos> I have friends / family that complain about china all the time, then go buy the cheapest thing they can get at Wal-Mart or Fleet Farm or wherever
[00:11:17] <SWPadnos> they just don't see the correlation
[00:11:22] <Skullworks-PGAB> Well with the China government cutting back on all subsidies as of July 1st it will cause a price increase surge
[00:11:49] <SWPadnos> I'm sure the governments on both sides of the Pacific are partly to blame
[00:11:49] <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, hahahaha... I love those hypocrits. :)
[00:11:59] <SWPadnos> yeah - and they don't even need the shit they buy
[00:12:13] <Skullworks-PGAB> I've allready seen 25% price increases on small machine tools
[00:12:51] <SWPadnos> many people in north america just don't understand how good we've got it
[00:13:05] <Skullworks-PGAB> yup
[00:13:10] <SWPadnos> in the UK and europe, gasoline has been around $4-$6/gallon for several years
[00:13:45] <Skullworks-PGAB> entitlement minded - the world owes you a comfortable living...
[00:13:56] <SWPadnos> if that happened here, people would be crying to the government to save us from the evil oil companies, so we could still drive our SUVs, pickups, and jet-skis
[00:14:00] <SWPadnos> right
[00:14:16] <a-l-p-h-a> I just had this conversation today with my boss this morning.
[00:14:36] <a-l-p-h-a> we have all our needs fullfilled... it's just our wants that are our concerns.
[00:14:39] <SWPadnos> it's always an interesting conversation ;)
[00:14:52] <a-l-p-h-a> we have money to buy food, shelter... but it's our wants now
[00:15:11] <a-l-p-h-a> like how big a TV, what car to choose next, movie tickets, etc etc...
[00:15:15] <toastydeath> and i would argue some people don't have their needs covered but still go for wants
[00:15:22] <a-l-p-h-a> not how do I feed my kids today...
[00:15:26] <SWPadnos> yeah - better buy that plasma screen before the shipping costs go up!
[00:15:35] <toastydeath> i better buy that hand scraper i was looking at
[00:15:37] <SWPadnos> heh - that's true too :)
[00:15:38] <toastydeath> before prices go up =(
[00:15:41] <SWPadnos> heh
[00:15:42] <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, you could go to BB and buy it there haha.
[00:15:49] <a-l-p-h-a> BB = best buy
[00:15:54] <Skullworks-PGAB> hmmm - I'm still working on needs...
[00:16:09] <SWPadnos> I need that plasma screen!
[00:16:10] <Skullworks-PGAB> * Skullworks-PGAB needs a new roof, this one leaks
[00:16:12] <a-l-p-h-a> Skullworks-PGAB, you have internet, you're needs are fullfilled.
[00:16:18] <toastydeath> hahaha
[00:16:30] <SWPadnos> my rear projector isn't 1920P you know
[00:16:37] <SWPadnos> how can I survive?
[00:16:45] <a-l-p-h-a> I need a Q6600, MSI P35 Platinium, 2gigs ram, and a nV8800...
[00:16:53] <a-l-p-h-a> 1920P?
[00:17:02] <SWPadnos> err - 1080P
[00:17:09] <Skullworks-PGAB> I live off friends trash...
[00:17:08] <SWPadnos> no - I need 2160P
[00:17:21] <Skullworks-PGAB> my PC's are all cast offs
[00:17:27] <SWPadnos> Quad HD - that's what I must have, before prices go up!
[00:17:35] <a-l-p-h-a> oh! have you guys seen the car I want to buy... Nissan Altima Coupe!!!
[00:17:46] <SWPadnos> pshaw - you need a maximog!
[00:17:51] <a-l-p-h-a> http://www.nissanusa.com/altimacoupe/index.html
[00:17:56] <Skullworks-PGAB> my car is 17 years old...
[00:18:02] <SWPadnos> http://www.maximog.com/
[00:18:05] <a-l-p-h-a> http://www.nissanusa.com/altimacoupe/index.html <- hawt... baby G35
[00:18:35] <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, what's your postal code? I'm ognna price one out
[00:18:38] <Skullworks-PGAB> ditched the cell phone and laugh my ass off at people raving about the iPhone
[00:18:40] <SWPadnos> 05452
[00:19:00] <Skullworks-PGAB> far east coast?
[00:19:40] <SWPadnos> Vermont
[00:19:49] <a-l-p-h-a> shit, it's way cheaper in the states!
[00:19:52] <Skullworks-PGAB> nice
[00:19:52] <a-l-p-h-a> W T F.
[00:20:08] <SWPadnos> $1 = $0.80
[00:20:11] <a-l-p-h-a> it's $34.5K + 14%....
[00:20:16] <Skullworks-PGAB> figure exchange rates
[00:20:27] <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, shut up... it's like $1CDN = $0.94USD
[00:20:31] <Skullworks-PGAB> also might be assembled in a local plant
[00:20:37] <SWPadnos> wow! the USD is damn low - $0.95/$1CAD
[00:20:49] <a-l-p-h-a> http://www.xe.com/
[00:20:52] <SWPadnos> man -London is going to suck next week :(
[00:21:04] <Skullworks-PGAB> more rain forcast?
[00:21:18] <SWPadnos> no - $2.04 exchange rate
[00:21:18] <a-l-p-h-a> 1USD = 0.49#
[00:21:38] <a-l-p-h-a> Skullworks-PGAB, you're very QUICK. :)
[00:21:55] <Skullworks-PGAB> or the fact your dollars feel real light compaired to the UK pund
[00:22:04] <SWPadnos> only 20% chance of rain showing at the moment, for Monday-Wednesday
[00:22:11] <a-l-p-h-a> Skullworks-PGAB, you're even QUICKer than I thought. :)
[00:22:30] <SWPadnos> oooh - I wonder if I got my upgrade
[00:22:37] <Skullworks-PGAB> only when grabbing the last slice o pizza
[00:22:41] <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, is that upgrade like tampex?
[00:22:52] <SWPadnos> err - no, I don't think so
[00:23:03] <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, seen those femail hygene product commercials?
[00:23:13] <a-l-p-h-a> female
[00:23:16] <SWPadnos> I don't watch much TV these days
[00:23:26] <SWPadnos> I know what Tampax are though, of course
[00:23:25] <a-l-p-h-a> you're not missing much
[00:23:35] <SWPadnos> that's why I don't bother
[00:23:51] <a-l-p-h-a> $28.7KUSD < $34.5KCDN
[00:24:11] <a-l-p-h-a> that is freak'n $4K less than here!
[00:24:21] <SWPadnos> don't forget this Maximog accessory: http://www.maximog.com/jetboat.html
[00:24:25] <a-l-p-h-a> that's not fair... $4KCDN difference!!!!
[00:24:30] <SWPadnos> well, drive over to Buffalo and get one
[00:24:39] <a-l-p-h-a> I don't boat.
[00:24:50] <SWPadnos> no, an Altima
[00:25:00] <SWPadnos> another accessory: http://www.maximog.com/bike.html
[00:25:04] <a-l-p-h-a> I wonder what the paper work would be...
[00:25:11] <Skullworks-PGAB> hey at one point it was 2$CDN to 1$ US - back when my cousin was getting child support from her Canadian Exhusband
[00:25:19] <SWPadnos> you'd probably have to pay the $4k in tax :)
[00:25:30] <a-l-p-h-a> SWPadnos, I wouldn't doubt that at all!
[00:25:36] <Skullworks-PGAB> It was bleeding him - or so he claimed
[00:25:50] <a-l-p-h-a> Skullworks-PGAB, I can believe that
[00:25:57] <SWPadnos> and you can't forget the coolest accessory for the MaxiMog: http://www.maximog.com/uav.html
[00:26:03] <a-l-p-h-a> I was selling stuff from Canada to the US at that rate... I loved it.
[00:26:20] <Skullworks-PGAB> sweet
[00:26:35] <a-l-p-h-a> $0.50 in materials... + $2.00 in shipping materials. sold for $25USD...
[00:26:44] <a-l-p-h-a> sold for a few hundred times...
[00:26:46] <a-l-p-h-a> I loved it
[00:27:07] <Skullworks-PGAB> I bought the Solarbotics H-bridge kit direct from the Canada builder
[00:27:16] <a-l-p-h-a> ~12500 CDN...
[00:27:50] <Skullworks-PGAB> I should wire that up to the pluto and do a wiki writeup
[00:29:45] <Skullworks-PGAB> bbl - have to go move laundry
[00:55:36] <toastydeath> pew pew pew
[01:50:51] <toastydeath> ararar
[01:50:59] <toastydeath> i am so annoyed i cannot find a universal measuring machine
[01:51:05] <toastydeath> i have now gone so far into obscure machines
[01:51:12] <toastydeath> that not even ebay has them
[01:51:38] <toastydeath> rotary head mills, universal measring machines, surface interferometers
[01:51:47] <toastydeath> WHEN WILL IT END
[01:51:49] <toastydeath> i need to stop reading
[02:57:25] <ds2> forget the machines... build something!
[02:57:58] <a-l-p-h-a> but the robots are my friends.
[02:59:25] <Skullworks-PGAB> robots help make scrap parts, only faster
[02:59:42] <ds2> let the machines rise
[03:00:35] <a-l-p-h-a> anyone see "Sarah Connor Chronicles"?
[03:00:56] <Skullworks-PGAB> not me
[03:01:21] <a-l-p-h-a> you should, it's a new show... based on Terminator
[03:05:02] <ds2> isn't it slated for this fall?
[03:05:29] <a-l-p-h-a> I got the preair
[03:05:31] <a-l-p-h-a> it's wicked.
[03:05:33] <a-l-p-h-a> it's good.
[03:06:22] <a-l-p-h-a> Summer Glau is in it... she's hot in a weird way... I don't know why
[03:06:38] <a-l-p-h-a> nm. http://imdb.com/gallery/granitz/6297/Events/6297/ActressSu_Leste_14560961_400.jpg.html?path=pgallery&path_key=Glau,%20Summer she's hot...
[03:06:46] <a-l-p-h-a> just when she has straight hair, she's kinda plain
[03:07:23] <SWPadnos> many people who are "hot" are kinda plain when they're not made up and lit well
[03:07:50] <a-l-p-h-a> true
[03:08:03] <a-l-p-h-a> I must just have good lighting around me all the time. :)
[03:08:10] <a-l-p-h-a> HAHA...
[03:08:12] <a-l-p-h-a> ahh...
[03:08:17] <a-l-p-h-a> I'm going to cry in the corner now.
[03:08:30] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:08:31] <a-l-p-h-a> lol
[03:08:32] <a-l-p-h-a> :)
[03:08:50] <SWPadnos> it's the makeup, silly
[03:08:56] <SWPadnos> retouching helps too
[03:08:57] <jmkasunich> http://imdb.com/gallery/ss/0379786/00039RV2.jpg.html?path=pgallery&path_key=Glau%2C%20Summer&seq=2
[03:09:14] <SWPadnos> she was River in Serenity - nice role there
[03:09:17] <a-l-p-h-a> see what I mean by weird. http://imdb.com/gallery/ss/0303461/Ss/0303461/5869100_2_5.jpg.html?hint=nm1132359
[03:09:21] <a-l-p-h-a> yes.
[03:09:33] <a-l-p-h-a> she's got a big forehead.
[03:10:08] <SWPadnos> I guess she's getting male pattern baldness
[03:10:25] <a-l-p-h-a> maybe...
[03:11:12] <Skullworks-PGAB> hmm River doing the clobber everyone in site dance...
[03:11:26] <SWPadnos> yeah - that was a fun scene
[03:11:27] <SWPadnos> or two :)
[03:11:37] <SWPadnos> or 6
[03:12:17] <Skullworks-PGAB> not bad for a little (thin) girl from Texas.
[03:13:06] <jmkasunich> I thought the thin girl from TX was named Fred
[03:13:12] <Skullworks-PGAB> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWaKcvuh1os
[03:13:19] <SWPadnos> argh. browsing is so darned slow when I have the Xilinx tools downloading on another machine
[03:41:09] <fenn> i cant believe i just watched that
[14:55:44] <awallin> hi all, what's up?
[14:58:20] <skunkworks> I don't think anyone is awake yet.. I am not..
[14:59:38] <awallin> ah, ok.
[15:08:08] <Skullworks-PGA1> * Skullworks-PGA1 is sipping coffee with one eye open.
[15:16:57] <SWPadnos> mmmmm - coffee
[15:17:19] <jlmjvm> jepler:I have an axis question
[15:18:14] <Skullworks-PGA1> Skullworks-PGA1 is now known as Skullworks-PGAB
[15:18:30] <jlmjvm> SWPadnos:good morning
[15:18:41] <SWPadnos> morning
[15:19:09] <jlmjvm> didnt you tell me your an electrical engineer
[15:19:31] <SWPadnos> I may have
[15:19:36] <SWPadnos> (and I am :) )
[15:20:04] <jlmjvm> k,thought i remembered,was awhile back
[15:20:37] <SWPadnos> ok. I don't remember telling you, but that may be -ENOCAFFEINE talking
[15:20:43] <jlmjvm> i got some pacsi steppers off ebay,and am having a little trouble
[15:20:47] <SWPadnos> not that I keep it a secret or anything
[15:20:54] <SWPadnos> what drives?
[15:21:01] <jlmjvm> g203v
[15:21:06] <jlmjvm> gecko
[15:21:06] <SWPadnos> nice
[15:21:12] <SWPadnos> what troubles? :)
[15:22:29] <jlmjvm> i can bench the motor at full rpm and acccel,but when i attach the belt I can only get about 30 to 40 percent,with a slow accel
[15:22:56] <jlmjvm> and if you try to increase it the drive will fault
[15:23:01] <SWPadnos> attach belt and pulley only, or attach belt+machine axis?
[15:23:17] <jlmjvm> attach to machine
[15:24:05] <SWPadnos> ok - that makes sense then. I take it that the motor stalls when you get to some speed, and that's how you tell that it isn't working?
[15:24:37] <jlmjvm> no,doesnt stall,just faults
[15:24:57] <SWPadnos> ok - the drive faults out - close enough
[15:25:17] <jlmjvm> i can make my old bridgeport steppers stall,but it doesnt fault the drive
[15:25:43] <SWPadnos> when you connect the motor to the machine, you increase the inertial load. that reduces the accel because the same torque is now accelerating more mass
[15:26:46] <SWPadnos> also, since stepper motor torque goes down as speed increases, and you've increased the load (friction and inertia), the top speed will be reduced, since at some point, the available torque will no longer be enough to overcome losses (and accelerate further)
[15:27:16] <jlmjvm> i agree,but Mariss says the drive should not fault,the motor should stall
[15:27:19] <SWPadnos> I don't know if the 30-40% number makes sense
[15:27:19] <SWPadnos> indeed
[15:27:46] <jlmjvm> i do know that it is a special winding
[15:28:05] <jlmjvm> i have the specs if that will tell you anything
[15:29:15] <SWPadnos> do you have the REV5 G203V (one with the yellow full power LED)?
[15:29:22] <jlmjvm> i think they are just too little for this size machine
[15:29:24] <jlmjvm> yes
[15:29:56] <SWPadnos> does that LED light before the drive faults?
[15:30:00] <jlmjvm> and the yellow light never comes on
[15:30:03] <SWPadnos> ok
[15:30:36] <SWPadnos> does it when the motor is unconnected?
[15:30:57] <SWPadnos> ^light
[15:30:57] <jlmjvm> let me rephrase,have never watched for the yellow light when its set fast enough to fault
[15:31:42] <SWPadnos> ok
[15:32:01] <jlmjvm> i can check that
[15:32:23] <SWPadnos> well, the only motor-related things I see that should light the red LED are (a) a shorted winding and (b) overtemp
[15:33:51] <fenn> could try adding inertia and friction to the motor while on the test bench
[15:33:58] <jlmjvm> what if the power supply was dropping off,could that do it
[15:34:12] <fenn> yep
[15:34:38] <jlmjvm> really
[15:34:52] <SWPadnos> I guess so - that LED goes on for 1 seconds after reset
[15:35:46] <SWPadnos> but I'd think it would have to droop a lot to make that happen - the minimum input voltage is 18V or thereabouts, which is pretty low for running any motor
[15:36:50] <jlmjvm> my power supply runs the big bridgeport steppers good,but not this little motor
[15:36:58] <jlmjvm> heres the specs
[15:37:27] <jlmjvm> powerpac 1.8 step motor
[15:37:55] <jlmjvm> model k31ssfsw-lek-ss-02
[15:38:08] <jlmjvm> 5.5a bipolar series
[15:38:17] <jlmjvm> 35v
[15:38:19] <SWPadnos> 35V?
[15:38:30] <jlmjvm> po 119w 1500 rpm
[15:38:47] <jlmjvm> yes 35v
[15:38:59] <Skullworks-PGAB> thats a killer
[15:39:06] <SWPadnos> I don't know how PacSci rates their motor voltage, but if they do it like everyone else, then that's about 10x as high as it should be
[15:40:04] <jlmjvm> whats a killer?
[15:40:14] <SWPadnos> the voltage
[15:40:25] <Skullworks-PGAB> a higher voltage motor
[15:40:41] <jlmjvm> do i need higher?
[15:40:57] <SWPadnos> no no - lower
[15:41:02] <SWPadnos> unless they rate them differently
[15:41:06] <jlmjvm> k
[15:41:22] <Skullworks-PGAB> you need a low voltagemotor and a high voltage 72VDC supply for the geckos
[15:41:48] <jlmjvm> i think they do,cause the regular pacsi motors are 65 v
[15:42:35] <SWPadnos> there are steppers that have high voltage like that - Oriental Motor made some that were AC motors or steppers - 72 RPM from 120AC/60Hz
[15:42:58] <SWPadnos> do you have the torque rating?
[15:43:50] <jlmjvm> supposed to be bout 850 oz in for the single stack nema 34
[15:44:26] <jlmjvm> from what i read on their web site
[15:46:23] <Skullworks-PGAB> Ideal stepper is low voltage - like 3V and low inductance like 2mH - then a good chooper/PWM drive shoots in 10x-20x voltage to get the coils to saturation, then cuts power (to stop overheat, magnet damage etc)
[15:46:48] <SWPadnos> I'm looking at a related spec sheet, and it shows the resistance as 0.42 ohms, which would be 2.3V, which is OK
[15:46:50] <Skullworks-PGAB> Did I get that right, not sure coffee has kicked in yet.
[15:47:50] <SWPadnos> Skullworks-PGAB, good enough approximation :)
[15:50:37] <jlmjvm> i may be wrong but i think they are too small for a full size bridgeport with 1 to 1 gearing
[15:50:56] <SWPadnos> probably
[15:51:07] <jlmjvm> single stack nema 34 with a 4 inch pulley attached
[15:51:09] <SWPadnos> 850 oz-in would be plenty for a servo, but not for a stepper
[15:52:05] <SWPadnos> what supply voltage do you have?
[15:52:22] <Skullworks-PGAB> I think 850 oz-in servo would still need a 2:1 or better reduction
[15:52:36] <jlmjvm> bout 34 volts
[15:52:45] <SWPadnos> eek - that's way too low
[15:53:01] <jlmjvm> i can change it to 70v
[15:53:13] <Skullworks-PGAB> much better
[15:53:16] <SWPadnos> higher voltage basically moves the knee of the torque curve toward higher speeds
[15:53:50] <Skullworks-PGAB> and you won't loose any stationary holding torque
[15:54:13] <SWPadnos> I would do that, but only once you check the voltage specs. 35V is very low for an insulation breakdown, but I'd want to be sure
[15:54:32] <SWPadnos> you will get more heating (but maybe not with the 203V) when holding
[15:55:42] <jlmjvm> it still does the same at higher voltage
[15:55:45] <Skullworks-PGAB> Thats one of geckos best features - able to run over 50V - which yields speeds other drivers only wish they could put out.
[15:56:01] <SWPadnos> is the speed any higher?
[15:56:06] <jlmjvm> nope
[15:56:29] <SWPadnos> hmmm. have you tried swapping motors/geckos around?
[15:56:33] <Skullworks-PGAB> do you have the proper resistor in place?
[15:56:51] <SWPadnos> yah - current limit could be an issue
[15:57:12] <SWPadnos> jlmjvm, about how fast can you get it going on the machine?
[15:57:19] <SWPadnos> (RPM)
[15:57:38] <jlmjvm> have the 270 resistor in,for 6 amp
[15:59:00] <SWPadnos> 270k?
[16:02:03] <jlmjvm> 270k
[16:02:32] <jlmjvm> can get bout 600 rpm on machine,but with very low accel
[16:03:09] <jlmjvm> runs bout 300 rpm with normal accel
[16:03:46] <SWPadnos> http://www.novotecargentina.com/descargar.php?id=156
[16:03:49] <jlmjvm> which is 60 ipm on this machine
[16:04:10] <SWPadnos> look on page 8 of the PDF - the first torque graph
[16:04:44] <jlmjvm> k
[16:05:26] <SWPadnos> I don't know how the "special" windings may differ, but that gives an inkling of how these motors may perform
[16:05:47] <jlmjvm> so im getting bout all its gonna do
[16:06:01] <SWPadnos> I don't remember what it is, but there's a recommendation regarding series vs. parallel connection as well
[16:06:02] <jlmjvm> if im reading th graph right
[16:06:31] <SWPadnos> I suspect that you want parallel, since you want high torque (it seems to me that parallel should deliver higher torque)
[16:06:37] <jlmjvm> i do know this motor will only work with all 8 wires,cant use just 4
[16:06:53] <SWPadnos> right - you need to use all 8, but it's a matter of how :)
[16:07:27] <jlmjvm> thought there was only one way to wire it
[16:07:37] <jlmjvm> with all 8
[16:07:38] <SWPadnos> nope - not for a standard 8-wire motor
[16:07:43] <Skullworks-PGAB> no - serial and parallel
[16:08:10] <SWPadnos> ah - the step motor basics PDF tells about that - page 5
[16:08:12] <SWPadnos> http://www.geckodrive.com/photos/Step_motor_basics.pdf
[16:08:24] <SWPadnos> yes - higher power and speed with parallel winding
[16:08:34] <SWPadnos> err - higher power and corner speed ...
[16:08:37] <jlmjvm> it can be serial or parallel with all 8 wires?
[16:08:41] <SWPadnos> yes
[16:08:53] <jlmjvm> did not know that
[16:08:55] <Skullworks-PGAB> parallel requires more curent, but has lower inductance and hence a higher top speed attainable
[16:09:12] <SWPadnos> you have A and A' coils. you can take those 4 wires and connect them in series by connecting two together, and the other two to the gecko
[16:10:03] <SWPadnos> you can connect them in parallel by connecting pairs of leads together (one from A and one from A' shorted together, then the other two shorted together), then connect each shorted pair to the gecko
[16:10:12] <jlmjvm> i can tell ya how my wires are
[16:10:41] <SWPadnos> you must be very careful doing this - if you wire the two halves backwards, you have a very large problem (it acts like a dead short)
[16:10:54] <SWPadnos> the G203V may just fault and refuse to run though - I'm not sure
[16:11:03] <jlmjvm> it should
[16:11:23] <SWPadnos> I agree, but I disclaim any responsibility for smoke released into the wild ;)
[16:11:59] <jlmjvm> yellow+white with red trace
[16:12:06] <jlmjvm> white+red
[16:12:33] <jlmjvm> black+white with orange trace
[16:12:59] <jlmjvm> orange+white with black trace
[16:13:37] <jlmjvm> if it smokes will get a new 1,its all in the name of science
[16:13:57] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:14:25] <SWPadnos> it looks like page 21 of that spec sheet I linked has connection info
[16:14:33] <SWPadnos> I don't know if it's correct for your motor though
[16:16:41] <jlmjvm> thats what i have
[16:16:49] <SWPadnos> ok - the parallel connection?
[16:17:10] <jlmjvm> thats actually where i got the info to wire these
[16:17:12] <jlmjvm> yep
[16:17:14] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:18:13] <jlmjvm> ?
[16:18:25] <SWPadnos> it is possible, though it seems far-fetched, that there's an insulation problem in the motor that shows itself when the motor gets warm. spinning at no load shouldn't heat the motor as much as spinning at low speed under load
[16:18:41] <SWPadnos> so as it heats up, the short happens, and the drive faults
[16:18:57] <jlmjvm> it can do it cold
[16:19:06] <SWPadnos> well, I did say that it's far-fetched :)
[16:20:51] <jlmjvm> think i may ned to get some different motors,they work good at low speed,really smooth
[16:20:53] <SWPadnos> damn. the laptop crashed sometime during / after the Xilinx tools install
[16:21:08] <SWPadnos> but I can't tell which, because the screen was blanked
[16:21:14] <jlmjvm> just dont have the power to move faster
[16:21:39] <SWPadnos> I'm surprised that the speed didn't change when you changed the power supply voltage to 70V
[16:21:50] <SWPadnos> that makes me think that there may be something weird going on
[16:21:57] <jlmjvm> me too
[16:22:17] <SWPadnos> other than that, I think you're getting about the right performance for running those motors at 34V
[16:22:36] <SWPadnos> how fast can you get them unloaded?
[16:23:13] <jlmjvm> 1250 rpm ,which is my max pulse rate
[16:23:19] <SWPadnos> ok
[16:23:27] <jlmjvm> which would be 250 ipm
[16:24:04] <SWPadnos> way too fast for a BP :)
[16:24:19] <jlmjvm> dont want to run that fast on my mill,would settle for 150 ipm,0r 750 rpm loade
[16:24:23] <jlmjvm> loaded
[16:24:38] <SWPadnos> I've got to run for a bit. hopefully someone with more motor knowledge will turn up at some point
[16:24:54] <SWPadnos> if you haven't already, you may want to post a question to the geckodrive Yahoo group
[16:25:00] <jlmjvm> thanks for your help,really appreciate it
[16:25:10] <SWPadnos> you're welcome
[16:25:42] <jlmjvm> talked with mariss already,says its a mystery motor,may send him 1 to play with
[16:25:55] <SWPadnos> heh - that should solve the problem quite handily
[16:26:20] <jlmjvm> thanks again SW
[16:26:44] <jlmjvm> gotta run also
[16:26:48] <Skullworks-PGAB> 250IPM is perfect for a BP
[16:27:16] <SWPadnos> true - this was a CNC before - I'm thinking ofmanual retrofits
[16:27:46] <jlmjvm> 250 would be sweet
[16:28:24] <jlmjvm> i did a retrofit on a hurco mill with g320 and am getting 250
[16:28:28] <Skullworks-PGAB> is your BP Z axis quil or knee?
[16:28:33] <jlmjvm> quill
[16:28:52] <Skullworks-PGAB> great it can take that speed just fine
[16:28:58] <jlmjvm> and its finger tip smooth
[16:29:21] <Skullworks-PGAB> I used to Run a Hurco KM3 knee mill - it had 250 rapids
[16:29:43] <Skullworks-PGAB> I alsways wanted to up it to 400 :)
[16:29:58] <jlmjvm> this is the full size hurco with tool changer
[16:30:15] <Skullworks-PGAB> BMC20 or 30?
[16:30:49] <jlmjvm> seems like it was a kmb
[16:30:56] <Skullworks-PGAB> ok
[16:31:02] <jlmjvm> will check,will be there in a bit
[16:31:17] <Skullworks-PGAB> like a 3200 or 3600 rpm spindle?
[16:31:37] <Skullworks-PGAB> single screen control
[16:31:41] <jlmjvm> 5400 spindle,huge motor
[16:31:53] <jlmjvm> was a dual screen
[16:31:57] <Skullworks-PGAB> hmm - have not seen that one
[16:32:24] <jlmjvm> now a single flat screen
[16:32:59] <jlmjvm> gotta run for now,will be back later,thanks guys
[16:33:01] <Skullworks-PGAB> strange - dual screen would be a Ultimax control - but I thought KMB's were all the older BX control
[16:33:07] <Skullworks-PGAB> k - later
[16:59:16] <maddash> yargh! there be problem with tilted arc rendering inside gcodemodule.cc!
[16:59:41] <fenn> is that a surprise?
[17:01:12] <maddash> surprise?! ay, matey!
[17:04:14] <maddash> seriously, I want to see the result of {G0X0Y0Z0, G2.4 X1Y1Z1 I.2J.2K1} before I try it out on the CNC
[17:11:37] <fenn> of course, but, why would you expect gcodemodule.cc to render something that isnt in the rs274 spec?
[17:21:47] <Skullworks-PGAB> Mad - just cut air ( with your finger on ESTOP )
[17:23:13] <Skullworks-PGAB> while a true arc is smoother - maybe a NURBS would get you cutting faster.
[17:25:26] <fenn> emc doesnt have support for nurbs either
[17:25:40] <fenn> (not yet anyway)
[17:27:13] <maddash> jepler: do you have time to try out my patches?
[17:28:29] <toast> patchez
[17:30:06] <feoc> hello hello
[17:30:49] <toast> nurbs in the hizzouse
[17:36:48] <Skullworks-PGAB> use nurbs in your CAD/CAM to generate a splined tool path.
[17:37:36] <Skullworks-PGAB> line long t=stack of lines to represent a single arc.
[17:38:11] <Skullworks-PGAB> EMC does not have file size issues - so blow up that code.
[17:41:03] <toast> folks are using nurbs for high speed machining
[17:41:47] <maddash> damn, these arcs coming out as spirals
[17:42:21] <toast> ?
[17:44:02] <maddash> they're tilted spirals, not tilted arcs. argh!
[17:44:27] <toast> is this standard g2/g3 or is this your custom arc thing
[17:45:01] <maddash> my 'arc thing'
[17:45:39] <toast> o
[17:52:17] <maddash> well, gotta go home.
[18:05:45] <jmkasunich> hi pete
[18:05:56] <jmkasunich> just saw the bug report about jogwheels
[18:14:12] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: this message is hiding real errors, it was printed so often
[18:15:54] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: remove more spam
[18:16:36] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/task/taskintf.cc: get rid of more spam
[18:52:19] <robin_sz> evening
[18:52:31] <robin_sz> * robin_sz logs on from his shiny new windows laptop
[18:53:06] <robin_sz> bought it today, freshly out of the box ;)
[18:53:22] <robin_sz> running vista, and MS Office 2007 too,
[18:53:51] <robin_sz> obvioulsy, being Windows, it refuses to work, the windows spyware has decided its not genuine
[18:54:47] <robin_sz> steamin' bag of crap
[18:54:56] <robin_sz> the hardware is lovely though :)
[18:56:28] <Vq^> robin_sz: maybe you didn't pay enough for it
[19:01:15] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/configs/sim/axis.ini: fix incremental jog increments
[19:22:41] <toast> i hear the pirated version of Vista doesn't have those problems
[19:23:00] <toast> I'm planning on installing a pirated version of vista on my next PC, even though it will have a valid license
[19:23:16] <JymmmEMC> what problems?
[19:23:53] <JymmmEMC> logger_emc: bookmark
[19:23:53] <JymmmEMC> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2007-08-04.txt
[19:24:05] <jmkasunich> toast: please don't discuss pirated software in this channel
[19:25:28] <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: was it a seald box (the laptop) ?
[19:36:26] <lerneaen_hydra> random musing: of engineers in general, how many use something tex based and not just word processing?
[19:37:14] <JymmmEMC> Text:95%, WP: 5% because they make me!
[19:38:09] <lerneaen_hydra> nono, tex, TeX
[19:38:44] <JymmmEMC> Text:80%, WP: 5% because they make me, DTP: 15%, LaTex: 0%
[19:39:24] <lerneaen_hydra> dtp?
[19:39:36] <JymmmEMC> DTP == DeskTop Publishing
[19:39:43] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, right
[19:39:59] <cradek> I still use LaTeX whenever I write a business letter, quote/invoice or business proposal
[19:40:05] <JymmmEMC> In my case, Corel, PS
[19:40:16] <JymmmEMC> PS == PostScript
[19:40:25] <cradek> I've only recently had openoffice on most of my computers and haven't learned to tolerate/like it yet
[19:40:50] <JymmmEMC> I hate OO spreadsheet... doens't do time cals properly
[19:41:01] <JymmmEMC> calcs
[19:41:04] <lerneaen_hydra> right, I've just started with tex (lyx) and can't see why no-one else seems to use it/know about it
[19:41:05] <fenn> html
[19:41:19] <cradek> well I don't care for lyx
[19:41:21] <fenn> scribus seems really nice
[19:41:38] <cradek> you're mistaken if you think nobody uses TeX
[19:41:56] <cradek> I suppose most technical papers (journals etc) are still written with it
[19:42:11] <cradek> it kicks ass for typesetting any math
[19:42:16] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, exactly
[19:42:18] <lerneaen_hydra> anything technical
[19:42:34] <lerneaen_hydra> and here I've been buggering around with oo.org for years
[19:42:36] <cradek> I wrote my last resume with it too
[19:42:43] <cradek> (anything that has to look good)
[19:43:13] <JymmmEMC> where's the feature list for scribus?
[19:43:33] <lerneaen_hydra> how's scribus compared to indesign?
[19:43:49] <fenn> JymmmEMC: hell if i know, i just got it with apt-get
[19:44:23] <fenn> i just fired up scribus and couldnt find any built in equation rendering
[19:45:13] <robin_sz> JymmmEMC: yeah it was a sealed box, never switched on
[19:45:19] <fenn> it worked great for panelizing pcb artwork tho :D
[19:45:32] <lerneaen_hydra> isn't scribus more for making things like booklets, leaflets, magasines and so on (page layout, after having made your text/images/whatever)
[19:45:37] <JymmmEMC> fenn: I think it's the same reason why Corel has lost all it's fanfair... they market it like everyone knows what it is/does... Not one mention of all the real features it has built in, which is really sad.
[19:45:49] <fenn> whereas any other vector program would choke on all the multiple copies
[19:46:11] <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: I thought someone in the store might have stolen the key or soemthing.
[19:46:44] <JymmmEMC> fenn: Does scribus support multile pages per document?
[19:47:05] <robin_sz> toast: i know what you mean about pirated software sometimes being better, we downloaded the kids pirated versions of several DVD's we actually own, just to avoid the obnoxious anti-piracy crap on the front
[19:47:42] <robin_sz> JymmmEMC: nah, its dell , they dont have stores, I think it want me to enter the office activation key
[19:47:59] <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: Oh, how annoying.
[19:48:33] <robin_sz> I'm not going to, as I don't actually want MS Office, i might try and sell it on, as its a full pro copy
[19:48:34] <fenn> JymmmEMC: yeah
[19:48:41] <robin_sz> with SQL server too
[19:48:54] <fenn> JymmmEMC: i couldnt get it to import multi-page pdf's though
[19:49:08] <robin_sz> this machien is soooo nice :)
[19:49:10] <JymmmEMC> fenn: could or could not ?
[19:49:15] <robin_sz> 2.33ghz core duo
[19:49:18] <JymmmEMC> fenn: ah
[19:49:20] <robin_sz> 512mb
[19:49:45] <JymmmEMC> fenn: you win or nix ?
[19:49:53] <fenn> guess
[19:50:06] <JymmmEMC> fenn: do you have a win box?
[19:50:11] <fenn> no
[19:50:15] <JymmmEMC> ok, nm then
[19:50:38] <robin_sz> normally, I'm linux top to toe, but for 3D cad ...
[19:51:02] <JymmmEMC> The ONE thing I really like about Corel is that import/export file formats it supports.
[19:51:20] <robin_sz> gimp has good import export too
[19:51:34] <toast> it would be funny to remanufacture a HF lathe to the same standards larger lathes are
[19:51:42] <robin_sz> and theres always 'convert'
[19:51:47] <toast> i wonder if you could remanufacture a HF lathe for less money
[19:52:02] <fenn> than making from scratch?
[19:52:09] <fenn> why bother
[19:52:10] <toast> no, than a bigger import lathe
[19:52:14] <toast> for giggles, why else
[19:52:16] <robin_sz> its expensie to make from scratch
[19:52:25] <robin_sz> the price of scratch has rocketed recently
[19:52:27] <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: I like the ability to editing PDF's on the fly
[19:52:32] <toast> hahahahah <3
[19:52:41] <toast> scratch is like up to 115 dollars a barrel
[19:52:50] <robin_sz> * robin_sz nods
[19:52:54] <fenn> what is "scratch"?
[19:53:05] <fenn> er, duh nevermind
[19:53:12] <toast> some hypothetical product robin has invented
[19:53:24] <toast> and that I futher refined to a product that is sold by the barrel
[19:53:37] <robin_sz> useful though, you can make almost ANYTHING from it
[19:53:40] <fenn> almost
[19:53:58] <robin_sz> apart from babies
[19:54:00] <toast> i wonder how much money it would cost for the nitralloy
[19:54:04] <toast> to make a new spindle and new leadscrew
[19:54:14] <toast> i should price it all out
[19:54:34] <robin_sz> MAKE a leadscrew?
[19:54:39] <toast> yeah
[19:55:00] <robin_sz> just buy a ballscrew
[19:55:19] <toast> i'm pretty sure i can make a leadscrew more accurate and cheaper than I can buy a ballscrew for
[19:55:29] <robin_sz> no, and no
[19:55:42] <toast> okay, you're aware that diamond turning machines use leadscrews and not ballscrews
[19:55:52] <toast> hydrostatic leadscrews
[19:55:58] <toast> so that's the accuracy, right there
[19:56:10] <robin_sz> but cheaper?
[19:56:12] <toast> and cheaper, i don't want to have to deal with all the tooling to produce a ballscrew
[19:56:13] <robin_sz> is your time free?
[19:56:22] <toast> for the purposes of a home project, yes
[19:56:37] <toast> like that guy who made a model, working ferrari!
[19:56:41] <robin_sz> * robin_sz would just buy a ballscrew
[19:56:52] <toast> and that would suck up a ton of the budget
[19:56:57] <robin_sz> $100 and you're done
[19:57:21] <toast> plus then i don't get to make a screw
[19:57:30] <robin_sz> indeed
[19:57:34] <toast> and i'd like to
[19:57:40] <toast> one day, anyway
[19:57:41] <robin_sz> well, thats fine then
[19:57:50] <toast> plenty of manuals on how to make leadscrews
[19:58:03] <fenn> you can buy acme threaded rod for $1/ft
[19:58:12] <toast> yeah but that's not accurate enough
[19:58:17] <toast> and is hard to re-finish
[19:58:17] <fenn> might be better to start with that as the stock
[19:58:21] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/motion/ (command.c control.c): discard jog requests during feedhold - accepting them and moving when the feedhold is released is 'surprising' to the operator
[19:58:21] <toast> nar
[19:58:25] <fenn> * fenn shrugs
[19:58:32] <toast> once you put the original threads on the screw you need to be very close
[19:58:38] <toast> or you can't correct it
[19:58:57] <robin_sz> lovely lovely laptop
[19:59:06] <fenn> as long as the pitch is consistent i dont see why it matters
[19:59:08] <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: max ram ?
[19:59:31] <robin_sz> pardon?
[19:59:35] <toast> fenn: the pitch isn't consistant
[19:59:44] <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: max ram the new laptop supports?
[19:59:42] <robin_sz> JymmmEMC: 512mb
[19:59:54] <robin_sz> for the video card ;)
[20:00:08] <robin_sz> its got 4GB of system memory installed
[20:00:16] <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: ah ok.
[20:00:23] <robin_sz> I presume thats maxxed out
[20:00:36] <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: L2 cache?
[20:00:49] <robin_sz> and a Nvidia FX3500 open GL card to drive the LCD
[20:00:55] <JymmmEMC> (per cpu/core)
[20:01:00] <robin_sz> JymmmEMC: how do I find out?
[20:01:08] <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: CPU specs
[20:01:19] <JymmmEMC> should say
[20:01:20] <robin_sz> not on the desktop
[20:01:40] <JymmmEMC> maybe the order details
[20:01:44] <robin_sz> maybe
[20:01:48] <JymmmEMC> or model#
[20:02:34] <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: SN?
[20:02:36] <robin_sz> 4mb
[20:02:48] <fenn> toast: http://onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?id=255&step=2
[20:02:49] <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: per cpu/core or total?
[20:02:55] <robin_sz> * robin_sz shrugs
[20:03:05] <robin_sz> intel T7600 @ 2.33 ghz
[20:03:52] <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: probably total, 2MB L2 cache not too shabby at all.... Try turning off the page file, and watch the pnly lag in the system be HDD access
[20:04:26] <robin_sz> http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SL9SD
[20:04:37] <toast> fenn: ?
[20:06:11] <fenn> its an alloy that's commonly nitrided...
[20:06:40] <toast> ah, i meant nitralloy, the alloy itself
[20:06:40] <toast> not nitrided steel
[20:06:49] <toast> 34% or so nickel
[20:07:14] <toast> it is nitrided near the end though
[20:07:28] <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: Yeah, when I ordered a laptop from Japan, turned off the paging file, and it just SCREAMED. Was totally awesome.
[20:08:25] <fenn> yow
[20:08:33] <robin_sz> this one seems to be quick enough
[20:08:39] <robin_sz> it can kep up with my typing anyway
[20:09:26] <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: Intel likes to be really greedy with L2 cache. XEON's had 2MB, and they tossed in 2MB in the mobile cpu's , and still stuck with 512 for desktop/server CPU's.
[20:10:22] <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: if you have lots of open apps, just ALT-TAB between them, should be instant, no lag/delay at all.
[20:12:20] <toast> aw the website won't quote their nickel alloys
[20:12:24] <toast> bastards
[20:12:27] <toast> fenn: ty for the link
[20:12:30] <fenn> toast: is this some crap you read about in a book?
[20:12:43] <fenn> a certain book by moore
[20:12:49] <toast> and from a few personal conversations
[20:12:57] <toast> the conversations first, backed up by moore's book
[20:14:35] <toast> i don't see what the issue with the book would be though
[20:14:41] <toast> it's cited in most other precision engineering texts
[20:15:43] <JymmmEMC> nickel-alloy has always been random in pricing
[20:16:21] <JymmmEMC> I bitched at one supplier because of that
[20:16:24] <toast> ha
[20:16:25] <toast> awesome
[20:16:43] <toast> what does it fluctuate between
[20:16:46] <toast> per whatever unit
[20:16:52] <fenn> toast: i read about an sr-71 black bird in a book, but it doesnt mean i can just go out and buy one
[20:16:52] <toast> pound, 1" round foot
[20:16:55] <JymmmEMC> toast: the stock market
[20:17:20] <toast> right, that is true
[20:17:28] <toast> but if you read several books, and spend all your time studying precision engineering
[20:17:43] <toast> you've got a better chance of getting into precision engineering
[20:17:56] <toast> or, in your example's case, building an sr-71
[20:18:47] <toast> that's the career track i'm persuing, so I would hope I'd know a little more about it than someone who read it in passing
[20:22:40] <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: Just FYI... http://support.euro.dell.com/support/downloads/index.aspx?c=uk&l=en&s=gen
[20:22:56] <fenn> toast: you ever heard of "superfinishing"?
[20:22:58] <toast> yessir
[20:23:04] <fenn> where did you hear about it?
[20:23:23] <toast> uh, the very first time?
[20:23:27] <fenn> either
[20:23:28] <toast> probably a manufacturing textbook
[20:23:35] <toast> i think i still have it
[20:23:44] <toast> why?
[20:23:52] <toast> do you want me to get the title?
[20:24:01] <JymmmEMC> wikipedia of course... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfinishing
[20:24:01] <fenn> only place i've ever seen it was in a random book i found in the top floor of the uni library
[20:24:07] <fenn> from like 1953
[20:24:11] <toast> i've spoken to people who do it
[20:24:18] <toast> and seen applications of it
[20:24:20] <fenn> do they still do it with solid blocks of abrasive?
[20:24:27] <toast> depends on the application
[20:24:30] <toast> for gears, no
[20:24:59] <toast> it can be done with solid hones or with a liquid slurry in an ultrasonic bath
[20:25:21] <JymmmEMC> http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/129804.html
[20:25:20] <toast> but the slurry doesn't give you any getometric defintion or refinement, just surface finish
[20:25:26] <fenn> with the slurry do you have some kind of rubber pad you press on the part?
[20:25:42] <fenn> hm.. so its just polishing it
[20:25:48] <toast> it depends on what you're doing
[20:26:09] <toast> i've never personally heard of any rubber pads
[20:26:13] <toast> but i don't see why you couldn't use one
[20:26:56] <toast> superfinishing can be used to give you better dimensional accuracy, and i guess if you had a complex part, you could use pads to give you that
[20:27:17] <toast> but that's only a guess.
[20:27:30] <robin_sz> ooh, its got an SD card slot :)
[20:27:37] <fenn> aw jeez now there's even a wikipedia entry on it
[20:27:53] <JymmmEMC> * JymmmEMC lol @ robin_sz
[20:28:00] <toast> hahah beaten to the punch!
[20:28:17] <toast> does it say anything interesting about it
[20:28:19] <JymmmEMC> fenn: and a nice refernce article too!
[20:28:22] <robin_sz> hmm, wont read the card from my nokia though
[20:28:31] <robin_sz> seen the Nokia 770 PDA thing?
[20:28:42] <robin_sz> runs some flavour of debian/ubuntu
[20:28:57] <fenn> toast: it doesnt really explain how it works
[20:29:02] <robin_sz> tiny tablet PC
[20:29:05] <toast> it's a lapping operation
[20:29:12] <fenn> not really
[20:29:15] <toast> yeah man
[20:29:18] <toast> seriously, it is
[20:29:40] <toast> like, on the early superfinishing machines for cylinders, the hones move back and forth to give you the same averaging effect
[20:29:44] <fenn> it seems sufficiently different to class it as its own process
[20:29:48] <JymmmEMC> fenn: http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/0203rt2.html
[20:30:08] <toast> well, it started out as honing stones/sharpening stones
[20:30:14] <toast> instead of a lapping plate charged with paste
[20:30:15] <toast> so it was
[20:31:05] <toast> i really shouldn't say it IS a lapping process, but rather it's very similar in action to a lap
[20:31:12] <toast> with differences in the tooling used
[20:31:20] <JymmmEMC> robin_sz: vista dont support ext3 =)
[20:31:20] <fenn> they say "very fine abrasives" but chrysler was using like 60 grit
[20:31:29] <toast> whaaat
[20:31:37] <fenn> i think there's some confusion about what the process is exactly
[20:31:38] <JymmmEMC> fenn: the other article said 320 grit
[20:31:55] <toast> it's a whole set of processes
[20:31:56] <JymmmEMC> s/said/mentioned/
[20:32:17] <toast> so yeah, i guess i agree there's some arguement to what exactly consititutes superfinishing
[20:33:10] <toast> but it's the same general mechanism - the averaging lap/grinding action
[20:33:16] <toast> it's not quite grinding, but not quite lapping either
[20:33:55] <fenn> ah cool they still have the book.. was afraid it got tossed when they threw out 90% of the books last year
[20:35:02] <toast> the sort of difference, in my retarded mind, between lapping and superfinishing
[20:35:15] <toast> is that lapping can correct local distortions in geometry
[20:35:24] <toast> while superfinishing tends to correct the geometry over an entire part
[20:36:16] <toast> with the hard stones, anyway
[20:40:35] <robin_sz> * robin_sz finds the shipping invoice for the laptop
[20:40:47] <robin_sz> £2798 ... cheap one
[20:41:02] <toast> holy crap
[20:41:12] <toast> you could bury somebody for 2898
[20:41:21] <toast> er
[20:41:26] <toast> whatever number you said.
[20:41:30] <robin_sz> I think my car is worth less
[20:41:42] <robin_sz> actually .. mine and the wifes together!
[20:41:47] <toast> hahaha.
[20:41:51] <toast> my hero.
[20:56:21] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm anyone here know of a lyx document layout that's similar to arcticle except that it moves title and TOC to seperate pages?
[20:57:24] <fenn> cant you make your own layouts?
[20:58:12] <lerneaen_hydra> but.. I'm incompetent >.< (actually I've just started playing with it today and don't know how to do that yet)
[21:08:37] <JymmmEMC> lerneaen_hydra: Your mill, what kind of quality is it?
[21:08:51] <toast> oh god, i can't paste in the windows version of RXVT
[21:09:04] <JymmmEMC> lerneaen_hydra: HF, china import being 1, and BP being 10.
[21:11:55] <toast_> ridiculous
[21:12:37] <toast_> ah, there we go
[21:12:43] <toast_> http://cgi.ebay.com/20-JIG-GRINDER-Moore-Fosdick-42G-18-x-42_W0QQitemZ150141689325QQihZ005QQcategoryZ12580QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[21:25:28] <lerneaen_hydra> JymmmEMC: hmm, I'm not sure I can say yet
[21:25:41] <lerneaen_hydra> for the price, very good
[21:25:53] <lerneaen_hydra> compared to the shittiest you can get, also good
[21:26:05] <lerneaen_hydra> the machine itself seems to be relatively solidly built
[21:26:18] <lerneaen_hydra> no painfully obvious stupid things done
[21:26:24] <lerneaen_hydra> still, it's no bridgeport
[21:26:46] <fenn> what's that supposed to mean?
[21:27:18] <lerneaen_hydra> well, it's just the feeling
[21:27:36] <lerneaen_hydra> you can feel that it's not the best machine on the planet, still quite good though
[21:27:50] <fenn> because its green? :)
[21:28:02] <lerneaen_hydra> exactly :)
[21:29:32] <toast_> ?
[21:30:08] <lerneaen_hydra> toast_: I was talking about my (significantly smaller) mill
[21:30:21] <lerneaen_hydra> a bit cheaper too by the looks of it
[21:30:46] <toast_> link?
[21:31:01] <lerneaen_hydra> http://www.lerneaenhydra.net/index.php?option=com_rsgallery2&Itemid=32&catid=8
[21:31:04] <lerneaen_hydra> some images there
[21:31:39] <toast_> neat machine dude
[21:32:00] <alex_joni> * alex_joni likes the DHCP sticker
[21:32:27] <lerneaen_hydra> alex_joni: indeed :D
[21:32:38] <lerneaen_hydra> toast_: thanks, quite simple to retrofit too
[21:32:36] <toast_> is that one of the "Mill/Drill" machines
[21:32:41] <toast_> retrofitted
[21:32:52] <lerneaen_hydra> it's marketed as a mill
[21:32:55] <toast_> cool
[21:33:01] <toast_> about 900-1000 bucks?
[21:33:05] <toast_> for the iron
[21:33:21] <lerneaen_hydra> in sweden it's about 2400€
[21:33:26] <toast_> hmm
[21:33:33] <lerneaen_hydra> in the US, probably 1500€
[21:33:32] <toast_> i am a dumb american and can't convert that
[21:33:34] <lerneaen_hydra> maybe less
[21:33:41] <lerneaen_hydra> probably less
[21:33:48] <toast_> i'm pretty sure i recognize that frame
[21:34:03] <toast_> gets pretty decent reviews
[21:34:14] <lerneaen_hydra> oh? that sounds good
[21:34:23] <toast_> yep
[21:34:32] <toast_> i'd say on Jymm's scale of 1 being HF and 10 being bridgeport
[21:34:40] <toast_> it's probably somewhere between a 5 and a 7
[21:34:53] <toast_> somewhere in there.
[21:35:00] <lerneaen_hydra> that good? I don't want to touch an HF then
[21:35:03] <toast_> hahahah
[21:35:03] <lerneaen_hydra> how bad are they?
[21:35:15] <toast_> well it depends on the specific iron
[21:35:26] <toast_> the worst of the worst don't have any Z movement
[21:35:33] <lerneaen_hydra> still sand left in the slides from the casting?
[21:35:40] <toast_> worse than that
[21:35:45] <toast_> the machine is like, extrusions
[21:35:44] <lerneaen_hydra> worse?
[21:35:48] <lerneaen_hydra> oh no...
[21:35:58] <toast_> the Z axis doesn't have any straightness and wanders
[21:36:03] <toast_> so you have to set your height, tram it
[21:36:03] <lerneaen_hydra> so shitty deformed alu extrusion?
[21:36:06] <toast_> and mill
[21:36:08] <toast_> i believe so
[21:36:11] <lerneaen_hydra> ...
[21:36:17] <lerneaen_hydra> and something like 1mm thick?
[21:36:24] <toast_> 1-2mm, yes
[21:36:28] <lerneaen_hydra> oh noes...
[21:36:37] <toast_> there's some cast iron to it
[21:36:39] <toast_> not much
[21:36:55] <toast_> HF does sell "better" machines
[21:36:55] <lerneaen_hydra> I do definetly not want to touch one of those
[21:36:56] <toast_> mini-bridgeports
[21:37:03] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, I see
[21:37:13] <toast_> that i was kind of interested in hearing how they do
[21:37:17] <toast_> they're really fun-sized bridgeports
[21:37:35] <toast_> but i don't know if the accuracy and rigidity was also fun-sized
[21:37:35] <lerneaen_hydra> neat
[21:37:40] <lerneaen_hydra> haha :D
[21:37:44] <toast_> never heard of a person using one before
[21:38:11] <lerneaen_hydra> I would think that in real life I can machine stuff to about 0.1mm, maybe 0.05 if I'm lucky
[21:38:24] <lerneaen_hydra> in alu, 0.1 or so for steel
[21:38:32] <toast_> ?
[21:38:39] <toast_> you're getting BETTER tolerances in alu?
[21:38:56] <toast_> that is tres strange
[21:38:56] <lerneaen_hydra> why wouldn't I? it's easier to cut
[21:39:09] <toast_> steel can be skim cut
[21:39:12] <toast_> very lightly
[21:39:15] <toast_> to slowly bring dimensions in
[21:39:40] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, true, if I take a nice good finish cut then tol. should be very similar
[21:39:42] <toast_> uh, lemme do this metric conversion real quick
[21:39:52] <lerneaen_hydra> leadscrew error was around 0.03mm
[21:40:27] <lerneaen_hydra> backlash around 0.1mm, software compensated
[21:40:37] <toast_> once you get to about .02 or so mm
[21:40:41] <toast_> in aluminum
[21:40:47] <toast_> you have a hard time re-cutting it
[21:41:06] <toast_> backlash shouldn't be a problem
[21:41:07] <toast_> well
[21:41:09] <toast_> okay in one direction
[21:41:11] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, usually I take away 0.1mm or so on the final cut
[21:41:27] <toast_> add a zero
[21:41:26] <lerneaen_hydra> err, 0.3
[21:41:27] <toast_> .01
[21:41:33] <toast_> ah
[21:41:45] <lerneaen_hydra> 0.01 inches?
[21:41:47] <toast_> mm
[21:41:52] <toast_> .0005 inches
[21:41:58] <lerneaen_hydra> for the final cut?
[21:42:05] <toast_> no, i'm saying that aluminum doesn't like to cut that shallow
[21:42:11] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, right
[21:42:09] <toast_> if you have to skim it
[21:42:13] <lerneaen_hydra> of course
[21:42:30] <toast_> not on coated or carbide tools
[21:42:33] <toast_> diamond will do it
[21:42:33] <lerneaen_hydra> usually I take 0.2-0.3mm on the final cut, 0.008 inches or so
[21:42:56] <toast_> hmm
[21:43:06] <toast_> i usually take .020"
[21:43:10] <toast_> but i don't know how rigid your mill is
[21:43:28] <toast_> and i guess with unknown screw accuracy you increase your accuracy by making smaller motions
[21:43:33] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, had I used a more stable machine I would have taken more
[21:43:57] <lerneaen_hydra> I can't recall the µm/N deflection, but it's quite weak
[21:44:19] <toast_> ah
[21:44:21] <lerneaen_hydra> I need to have a relatively small final cut to not deflect too much
[21:44:46] <toast_> still i suppose one can't ask too much out of a machine that size
[21:44:51] <toast_> it's still a good machine from what i hear
[21:45:01] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, it's good for the price/size
[21:45:09] <lerneaen_hydra> for the type of things it's used for
[21:46:15] <toast_> what do you machine
[21:46:55] <lerneaen_hydra> oh various odds and ends, I guess the most critical application is PCB drilling
[21:47:14] <toast_> you crazy pcb people
[21:47:13] <lerneaen_hydra> wrt accuracy
[21:47:18] <toast_> ..wrt?
[21:47:21] <lerneaen_hydra> with regards to
[21:47:23] <toast_> ah
[21:47:35] <toast_> i had the funniest drawing at work the other day
[21:47:38] <toast_> speaking of holes and accuracy
[21:47:58] <lerneaen_hydra> heh, I've got one idea of what that was about
[21:48:04] <toast_> i had an engineer dimension half of a drawing in ordinate
[21:48:07] <toast_> only half
[21:48:31] <toast_> and the major part features are done in ordinate, and this line of holes
[21:48:35] <toast_> +/- .005, no sweat
[21:48:43] <toast_> but then, off of holes that are .005
[21:48:51] <toast_> he's got a surface that is +/- .001
[21:48:55] <toast_> OFF the holes
[21:49:10] <lerneaen_hydra> err
[21:49:36] <toast_> i'd have to bore these +/- .005 holes into .0005 or so
[21:49:41] <toast_> to get this surface in tolerance
[21:49:43] <toast_> on a bridgeport
[21:49:50] <lerneaen_hydra> haha, sweet
[21:49:51] <toast_> we have quality engineers.
[21:50:07] <toast_> i then went to ask him, what the hell was he thinking
[21:50:16] <toast_> and he looks at it and goes "those are supposed to be locating pin holes"
[21:50:23] <toast_> "but only the end two."
[21:50:29] <lerneaen_hydra> ...
[21:50:35] <toast_> so those AREN'T dimensioned to the tolerance they need to be
[21:50:47] <toast_> and then he looks at it again and goes
[21:50:54] <toast_> well actually on this part only there isn't any locating pins
[21:50:59] <toast_> so that surface isn't critical either
[21:51:04] <lerneaen_hydra> haha :D
[21:51:08] <lerneaen_hydra> gotta love designers
[21:51:37] <toast_> he didn't get it, why he couldn't dimension a surface to .001 off off six features that are .005
[21:51:44] <toast_> it was amazing
[21:52:31] <toast_> i guess the machine i was on did have contouring
[21:52:40] <toast_> so i should have measured the holes, and machined the surface wavy
[21:53:00] <toast_> (the was no flatness or parallelism callout)
[21:53:02] <toast_> *there
[21:53:21] <lerneaen_hydra> kind of reminds me of a person I know, he got an order for some type of structure, a square with one hole in each corner, with nearly insane tolerances (0.05 mm translation, as well as asanine colinearity tolerances), they spent days trying to make it, scrapping attempts several times because they were a bit off, and eventually they asked if they could exceed the tolerance a little bit. apparently the holes were for
[21:53:22] <lerneaen_hydra> shackles and a lifting harness
[21:53:44] <toast_> hahahahahahahaha
[21:53:47] <lerneaen_hydra> ah, right
[21:54:01] <toast_> that is amazing
[21:54:18] <lerneaen_hydra> they weren't all that pleased
[21:54:54] <toast_> i wonder if "put four holes somewhere at each corner" is a legitimate tolerance
[21:55:13] <toast_> plus or minus half an inch or something
[21:55:57] <lerneaen_hydra> now that would be fun seeing on a drawing
[21:57:00] <toast_> the machinists would love it
[21:57:05] <toast_> "get the cordless drill"
[22:02:46] <alex_joni> good night all
[22:03:19] <lerneaen_hydra> 'night
[22:07:33] <toast_> has anyone ever been to a machine auction
[22:09:18] <toast_> poo
[22:13:07] <jmkasunich> toast yea
[22:13:29] <jmkasunich> when they shut down the Gould torpedo plant in Euclid ohio
[22:13:46] <toast_> what was it like
[22:13:48] <jmkasunich> I didn't buy any machines, but I got an arbor press, dividing head, and a bunch of other goodies
[22:13:53] <toast_> cheap stuff?
[22:13:54] <toast_> rare stuff?
[22:14:01] <jmkasunich> all kinds of stuff
[22:14:05] <toast_> cheap == inexpensive, not cheap cheap
[22:14:29] <jmkasunich> from boxes of misc drill bits with a starting bid of $25, to massive vertical turret lathes
[22:14:39] <toast_> how much were the VTLs
[22:14:46] <jmkasunich> I don't recall
[22:14:48] <toast_> oh
[22:14:52] <jmkasunich> pennies on the dollar I know
[22:14:53] <toast_> i should go to one
[22:15:01] <jmkasunich> (compared to original purchase price)
[22:15:03] <toast_> they've got a lot of machine stuff around here
[22:15:12] <toast_> but i'd probably cry
[22:15:11] <toast_> when i got home
[22:15:12] <jmkasunich> biggest collection of 20-21" mics I've ever seen in one place
[22:15:15] <toast_> becuase i couldn't buy anything
[22:15:38] <jmkasunich> must have been 50 or more of them
[22:15:47] <toast_> i guess they do a lot of 20-21" work
[22:15:54] <toast_> that's such a weird size to have mics though
[22:16:00] <toast_> especially 50
[22:16:46] <jmkasunich> Mk 48 torpedo is 21" in diameter
[22:16:57] <jmkasunich> so very many of its parts are just under 21"
[22:17:53] <toast_> hahaha
[22:17:59] <toast_> nice
[22:23:00] <toast_> i have this weird fear that by the time i have a garage or other space
[22:23:02] <toast_> all the machines will be gone
[22:25:00] <cradek> jmkasunich: verdict is three stuck intake valves
[22:25:09] <jmkasunich> wow
[22:25:17] <jmkasunich> stuck how?
[22:25:23] <jmkasunich> rust? no oil?
[22:25:44] <cradek> they stuck overnight
[22:26:04] <cradek> so not rust - must not have been oil up there, and it was hot out
[22:26:10] <cradek> it's very strange
[22:26:23] <jmkasunich> sad
[22:26:33] <cradek> I had trouble with the oil line to the rocker arm shaft, but I fixed it (a year ago or more)
[22:26:51] <cradek> after that, there was good flow, but I had not checked it lately
[22:27:20] <cradek> I got one to loosen up somewhat, they're all soaking with penetrating oil on them now, but I have no high hopes
[22:27:49] <cradek> the other two are quite well stuck.
[22:28:14] <jmkasunich> that sucks
[22:28:37] <cradek> yeah the car might be done after only 55 years of service.
[22:41:43] <jmkasunich> gonna go acquire some photon patterns.... back after sunset
[22:42:28] <cradek> http://www.google.com/maps?q=Wymore,+NE,+USA&ie=UTF8&ll=40.090483,-96.682949&spn=0.007092,0.006845&t=h&z=17&om=1
[22:42:35] <cradek> haha found it!
[22:42:50] <jmkasunich> got parts
[22:42:52] <jmkasunich> ?
[22:43:08] <cradek> I found the junkyard I remembered
[22:43:14] <jmkasunich> right
[22:43:36] <cradek> I knew about where it was, but not the name or anything
[22:43:41] <cradek> so I looked from "overhead"
[22:43:50] <jmkasunich> that still doesn't get you a name
[22:43:54] <jmkasunich> but I guess you can just drive there
[22:44:04] <cradek> no but I could go there.
[22:46:51] <JymmmEMC> John's Muscle Cars & Classic - more info »3638 E Willow Rd, Wymore, NE(402) 674-3147
[22:47:41] <cradek> hmm!
[22:47:56] <JymmmEMC> ever thought of hitting the WEB link? on that page =)
[22:48:41] <Skullworks-PGAB> Cradek - what died?
[22:48:50] <cradek> JymmmEMC: that doesn't seem to be the one I remember, but John would sure know wouldn't he
[22:49:07] <cradek> Skullworks-PGAB: my 52 chevy "deluxe'
[22:49:08] <JymmmEMC> cradek: It's a start at least,
[22:50:32] <Skullworks-PGAB> Had a girlfriend who had a mint condition 48 Mercury coup with a 6v Flat head V8... Enough room in the back seat for 2 couples...
[22:50:41] <cradek> Skullworks-PGAB: it could be fixed, but probably not worth the bother
[22:51:19] <cradek> two couples huh.
[22:51:41] <Skullworks-PGAB> it was "Cavernous"
[22:52:04] <Skullworks-PGAB> could almost stand up
[22:52:27] <Skullworks-PGAB> with a slight stoop
[22:53:50] <Skullworks-PGAB> I'm sure she still has it stashed safely somewhere along with her Fatboy...
[22:55:04] <JymmmEMC> cradek: do you have ANY idea on the address?
[22:56:31] <cradek> judging from that map I assume it's on Spruce Rd, Wymore NE
[22:57:05] <JymmmEMC> cradek: That I got, and since it changes street names further East, I'll suspect it's East Spruce Rd
[22:58:11] <cradek> that's all I know - I remember thinking it was south of town, I just found it by looking there
[22:58:39] <JymmmEMC> cradek: Well, it's one of these (pg 1 of 4) http://www.nebraskataxesonline.us/taxcollpage2.aspx?county=Gage&s1=ADDRESS&s2=SPRUCE%20RD&s3=2006&s4=1
[22:59:04] <JymmmEMC> cradek: Try the EAST adresses first
[22:59:34] <JymmmEMC> cradek: I was trying to narrow down by property value, but too many of them
[23:00:30] <JymmmEMC> cradek: and I'm too damn lazy to find the real address fro the lat/lon on my laptop right now.
[23:00:44] <cradek> :-)
[23:00:47] <cradek> thanks for trying
[23:01:06] <cradek> I could just go there at a likely time like Sat morning
[23:01:14] <JymmmEMC> cradek: trying my ass, it IS once of those... it's up to YOU to figure out which one =)
[23:01:18] <cradek> or, I could call anyone in that town and they'd know
[23:01:19] <JymmmEMC> s/once/one/
[23:02:00] <JymmmEMC> $129K http://www.nebraskataxesonline.us/statement.aspx?county=Gage&s1=2006&s2=327&s3=1
[23:02:57] <JymmmEMC> getting closer... http://www.google.com/maps?q=7554+E+Spruce+Rd,+Wymore,+NE+68466,+USA&ie=UTF8&ll=40.073638,-96.626344&spn=0.01307,0.016351&t=h&z=16&iwloc=addr&om=1
[23:03:03] <JymmmEMC> got an ref address now
[23:03:36] <cradek> http://www.insiderpages.com/b/3717756210
[23:04:02] <JymmmEMC> http://www.google.com/maps?saddr=7554+E+Spruce+Rd,+Wymore,+NE+68466&geocode=&daddr=40.090483,-96.682949&f=d&sll=40.073638,-96.626344&sspn=0.01307,0.016351&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=14&om=1
[23:06:17] <cradek> hmm, E Spruce Rd is south of Spruce Rd
[23:09:34] <cradek> I bet it's Watts, and google gets the map slightly wrong
[23:33:45] <jmkasunich> bit of excitement tonight: http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/IMGP0259_med.JPG
[23:56:22] <jepler> jmkasunich: I can't quite figure out what's going on there
[23:56:38] <jepler> the fire is all from the car's fuel?
[23:57:00] <jepler> it burned the grass in an odd pattern
[23:57:46] <cradek> bizarre
[23:59:39] <cradek> neat how the insulation on the wires is burning along like a fuse