#emc | Logs for 2007-07-01

[02:48:40] <CIA-8> 03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/motion/ (control.c motion.h): add 'index only' homing - moves at latch_vel and homes on the first index pulse
[03:02:42] <ohiopctechDOTcom> ok i need to find a cheap sourch of 4" diameter ground stainless tubing at least 6 feet long
[03:02:58] <ohiopctechDOTcom> source
[03:03:31] <ohiopctechDOTcom> annd maybe not so cheap.. more reliable than cheap
[03:03:34] <ohiopctechDOTcom> any ideas?
[03:06:54] <Jymmm> the local mall?
[03:07:13] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i'm not sure about that
[03:07:22] <ohiopctechDOTcom> they sell lots of useless crap there
[03:07:30] <ohiopctechDOTcom> nothing to build machines with
[03:07:35] <ohiopctechDOTcom> unless i take the wheelchair railing
[03:07:38] <ohiopctechDOTcom> :O
[03:08:15] <Jymmm> took you long enought to finger that out
[03:08:31] <Jymmm> handrail
[03:09:11] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i found some at lowes and they only had up to 4 feet but it had the perfect mounts already for shower rails
[03:09:22] <ohiopctechDOTcom> and i need at least 5 i'd like to have 6
[03:19:04] <ds2> ground, stainless and 4" AND you want it cheap?
[03:19:46] <ds2> how about you find me some 6' long, 4" rounds of solid platinum cheap first then I'll GIVE you the stainless? =)
[03:20:03] <ds2> don't have to be ground either ;)
[03:20:36] <ohiopctechDOTcom> well uh... i mentioned maybe not so cheap
[03:20:41] <ohiopctechDOTcom> :D
[03:21:03] <ds2> checked MSC or McMasterCarr?
[03:21:22] <ohiopctechDOTcom> not yet...
[03:21:31] <ds2> what's the application?
[03:21:36] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i did look into metalexpress.net's stock list
[03:21:41] <ohiopctechDOTcom> they have some...
[03:21:45] <ds2> 4" is a bit large
[03:21:51] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i was looking for other options before i bought it
[03:22:06] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i haven't got my msc catalog here yet
[03:22:08] <ohiopctechDOTcom> or the mcmaster...
[03:22:24] <ds2> you were able to get a paper McMaster catalog
[03:22:25] <ds2> ?
[03:22:36] <ohiopctechDOTcom> we have one at work
[03:22:45] <ohiopctechDOTcom> just got a new one
[03:22:54] <ds2> wow.. you guys must do a lot of business with them
[03:22:59] <ohiopctechDOTcom> it's yellow and green on the cover
[03:23:25] <ds2> but what's your application?
[03:23:26] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i just bought 150 5/16 drill bits friday from them
[03:23:51] <ohiopctechDOTcom> it's going yo be my x ways on the 24" x 48" cnc router table i am building
[03:23:54] <ds2> the only standard thing I can think of that is near that size is chimney ducts
[03:24:16] <ohiopctechDOTcom> as a first attempt at a prototype
[03:24:25] <ds2> why not go with solid? ;)
[03:24:45] <ohiopctechDOTcom> well.. it's a prototype...
[03:24:58] <ds2> ah I see.... 4" just seems so big
[03:25:00] <ohiopctechDOTcom> solid is abig investment at this point that i am not sure will be worth it
[03:25:19] <ds2> Hmmm what about plain steel piping then?
[03:25:40] <ohiopctechDOTcom> would the od be precision enough?
[03:25:59] <ds2> no but if you can find a large lathe....
[03:26:15] <ohiopctechDOTcom> hmm.. an idea
[03:26:21] <ds2> preferably with a 4"+ through hole in the headstock
[03:26:35] <ds2> or even a large centerless grinder
[03:27:12] <ds2> 6-8ft long bed lathes seems to come up cheap a lot... guess not many people have room for them ;)
[03:27:39] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i'd take one if i found a deal
[03:27:45] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i'd clear my garage out for it
[03:27:49] <ohiopctechDOTcom> and throw the rest of the stuff away
[03:27:51] <ohiopctechDOTcom> lol
[03:27:58] <ds2> but you got ppower for it? it may take 440 3PH
[03:28:12] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i got a 220 <-> 440 transformer
[03:28:20] <ohiopctechDOTcom> in the garage
[03:28:20] <ohiopctechDOTcom> ;)
[03:28:26] <ohiopctechDOTcom> and i got 220 for my dryer
[03:28:31] <ds2> for a while there was a even bigger one available for hauling from a military base out here
[03:28:37] <cradek> dryers aren't 3 phase
[03:28:54] <ohiopctechDOTcom> 3 phase convertor?
[03:29:16] <cradek> you can do it with a motor (I think?)
[03:29:25] <ohiopctechDOTcom> this is just daydreaming right now really
[03:29:32] <ds2> wonder if it would be cheaper to buy a little diesel generator hut instead of a phase converter for something that big
[03:29:49] <ohiopctechDOTcom> yes.. you spin a 3 phase motor with a two phase motor
[03:29:58] <ohiopctechDOTcom> and you get three phase power from what i read...
[03:30:13] <ohiopctechDOTcom> with a little more involved than just that.. but it's possible i believe
[03:30:26] <cradek> yes
[03:31:12] <cradek> never done it, but I've read the same thing
[03:31:16] <ds2> but if it is setup for 440 3PH, its got some serious draw that gets more then doubled at 220
[03:32:01] <ohiopctechDOTcom> we got three phase at the shop.. they would always let me keep a big machine there if i did free work for them.. lol
[03:32:26] <ds2> well, look at military surplus
[03:32:44] <ds2> but you may need to rent an 18wheeler to pick it up ;)
[03:32:45] <Jymmm> chemical piping is the only other thing I cna think of
[03:32:59] <Jymmm> or some art work =)
[03:33:02] <ds2> Oh refinery stuff would be SS
[03:33:48] <ohiopctechDOTcom> art work?
[03:35:12] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i thought art was retired?
[03:36:39] <ohiopctechDOTcom> hey i watched a vid on youtube of the cncfest... it was jsut a buncha people on computers...
[03:37:03] <ohiopctechDOTcom> and like 8 hours of darkness in the shop
[03:37:30] <ohiopctechDOTcom> did you guys have a coding session?
[03:37:44] <cradek> yeah we did a lot of that
[03:37:50] <ohiopctechDOTcom> ...oh and i found the amd64 stuff on your site cradek
[03:37:54] <ohiopctechDOTcom> looks intersting
[03:37:58] <cradek> who me?
[03:38:12] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i think it's your site
[03:38:12] <cradek> I haven't done anything with amd64
[03:38:28] <ohiopctechDOTcom> axis. somethins domain?
[03:38:37] <ohiopctechDOTcom> jepler and you?
[03:38:51] <cradek> ah jepler's site
[03:38:53] <ohiopctechDOTcom> ohhh
[03:38:56] <ohiopctechDOTcom> ok..
[03:39:51] <ohiopctechDOTcom> yes.. i been trying to compile my own realtim kernel with no success...
[03:40:00] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i'm not so good with source code
[03:40:09] <cradek> it can be a pain.
[03:40:13] <ohiopctechDOTcom> so i haven't even got a kernel to boot yet.. out of 4 tries
[03:40:23] <cradek> hm usually it's not that bad :-)
[03:40:37] <ohiopctechDOTcom> lol
[03:42:06] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i had like three different howtos open so i might have mixed myself up while attempting it
[03:42:18] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i figure i'll try again in a few days
[03:42:25] <ohiopctechDOTcom> give my brain a rest
[03:42:34] <cradek> what's your goal?
[03:42:53] <ohiopctechDOTcom> to get a functional amd64 realtime kernel and run emc2
[03:42:58] <ohiopctechDOTcom> on the machine...
[03:43:09] <cradek> ah
[03:43:18] <cradek> I guess that seems to work, but it's not well tested yet
[03:43:34] <ohiopctechDOTcom> it works in x86 mode ok...
[03:43:51] <ohiopctechDOTcom> but i figured i'd try to aqueeze the extra juice from the 64 bit cpu
[03:43:56] <ohiopctechDOTcom> squeeze**
[03:44:28] <ohiopctechDOTcom> err 32 bit
[03:46:53] <ohiopctechDOTcom> anyone use superior abrasives products?
[03:47:10] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i dranka few beers with the plant manager today
[03:47:22] <ohiopctechDOTcom> he said they did 18 mil last year!
[03:47:29] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i was like oh sh!t
[03:48:38] <ohiopctechDOTcom> my dad's shop designed this machine that mechanically welds the threaded hub to the woven fabric abrasive disc
[03:48:46] <ohiopctechDOTcom> for superior abrasives
[03:49:02] <ohiopctechDOTcom> it does 27,000 discs per 8 hours
[03:49:23] <ohiopctechDOTcom> it has 6 bowl feeders on it!
[03:49:52] <ohiopctechDOTcom> **i jsut found this out today since i don't talk to my pop anymroe
[03:49:56] <ohiopctechDOTcom> anymore*
[04:00:55] <ds2> as far as anyone here knows, has there been anyone that used EMC to control a RP machine?
[04:02:14] <ohiopctechDOTcom> rp?
[04:02:33] <ds2> Rapid Prototyping
[04:02:37] <ohiopctechDOTcom> ohh...
[04:02:50] <ohiopctechDOTcom> it could be done...
[04:02:59] <ds2> i.e. Stereo Lithography, Fused Deposition, Zcorp stuff, Dimension stuff, etc
[04:03:21] <ds2> I am thinking of trying that instead of the java "crap" that the other guys are using
[04:03:46] <ohiopctechDOTcom> mastercam would be a great canidate for the code generation
[04:03:51] <ohiopctechDOTcom> *in my opinion
[04:04:00] <ds2> why?
[04:04:20] <ds2> not a challenge, nothing seems to stick out when I was playing with it
[04:04:27] <ohiopctechDOTcom> well, because i know it fairly well.. and i had already given it some thought
[04:04:47] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i watched a few videos of some rapid prototyping machines
[04:05:02] <ds2> so mastercam can slice up a solid and generate boundary contours of each slice?
[04:05:06] <ohiopctechDOTcom> one laid out some putty or some sort of plaster material in layers...
[04:05:21] <ohiopctechDOTcom> it would be easy to jsut wrtie a contour toolpath for the forms you want like that
[04:05:24] <ds2> sounds a lot like the Zcorp process
[04:05:37] <ds2> Oh and not bother with actually slicing?
[04:05:54] <ohiopctechDOTcom> you can do steps in the toolpath geteration
[04:06:01] <ohiopctechDOTcom> and tapered walls
[04:06:15] <ds2> does that work on all MC versions?
[04:06:24] <ohiopctechDOTcom> hmm i think so
[04:06:27] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i use mc9
[04:06:45] <ohiopctechDOTcom> generation*
[04:07:02] <ds2> Hmmm maybe i should sign up for some access to MCX at the local JC
[04:07:19] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i haven't used anything below version 9 and i haven't played with mcX much at all
[04:08:00] <ds2> i only know how to get around in MCX :/ they did some pretty big changes between MC9 and MCX
[04:08:14] <ohiopctechDOTcom> yes they did.. which is why i am sticking ith 9
[04:08:20] <ohiopctechDOTcom> with 9*
[04:08:39] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i can't get used to the new menu system and data input
[04:09:05] <ds2> and I can't do the reverse
[04:09:20] <ds2> I think MCX will spit out .MC9 files, IIRC
[04:09:32] <ohiopctechDOTcom> mcp rocks.. 1 letter command shortcuts.. and you jsut type the numbers in and hit enter
[04:09:51] <ohiopctechDOTcom> mcX wouldn't work that way for me.. and i couldn't get a decent post to work with emc2
[04:10:20] <ohiopctechDOTcom> oh my
[04:10:30] <ohiopctechDOTcom> typos are running amuk
[04:10:30] <ds2> it doesn't... they want you to use those buttons on top
[04:11:20] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i can go from idea to toolpaths to cutting it on the mill without ever touching the mouse in mc9
[04:11:23] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i love it!
[04:11:40] <ds2> sounds like standard Unix style
[04:13:13] <ds2> what kind of machine would MC consider this to be?
[04:13:36] <ohiopctechDOTcom> i'd say a normal 3 axis mill if you want that much control
[04:14:01] <ohiopctechDOTcom> and use the spindle on g-code for .. putty squirt on or something
[04:14:48] <ds2> I guess the similation would be pretty useless then
[04:14:58] <ohiopctechDOTcom> you could even use reverse spindle for sucking putty back up maybe?
[04:15:22] <ds2> the simple extruder head can only squirt
[04:15:31] <ohiopctechDOTcom> well... possibly, you have a point with the simulation
[04:15:41] <ds2> nice thing about the simple design is it can be adapted so it'll cost about $10-$15 to build
[04:15:52] <ohiopctechDOTcom> suck could be tool #2
[04:16:55] <ohiopctechDOTcom> you could have squirt/suck/slicing tool heads.. t1, t2, t3
[04:16:57] <ds2> Hmmm I wonder if EMC can generate PWM to directly control a DC motor (w/o using an encoder for feedback)
[04:17:36] <ds2> one thing is for sure... remachining can't be used
[04:18:29] <ohiopctechDOTcom> don't dc motors run at different speeds when you PWM them?
[04:18:40] <ds2> yep, they sure do
[04:18:46] <ohiopctechDOTcom> a non stepper i mean?
[04:18:58] <ds2> I am trying to avoid writing a little PIC program to drive the motor
[04:18:59] <ohiopctechDOTcom> you'd need an amp still i bet
[04:19:15] <ds2> amp would be nothing more then a little power transistor
[04:19:29] <ds2> probally 2N2222 to buffer and a 2N3055 for actual drive
[04:20:12] <ohiopctechDOTcom> sounds like an awesome project
[04:20:46] <ds2> now if I can only use EMC to close the loop for temperature control, I'd be set... no microcontroller to program
[04:21:18] <ohiopctechDOTcom> spindle speed = temp
[04:22:00] <ohiopctechDOTcom> people should pay me for these ideas... oh wait.. someone does 8 hours a day
[04:22:01] <ohiopctechDOTcom> ;)
[04:22:18] <ds2> yes but I would still need to close the loop
[04:22:35] <ohiopctechDOTcom> encoder = temp sensor
[04:22:36] <ds2> and the temperature sensor I have in mind is analog
[04:22:54] <ohiopctechDOTcom> that you may need a pic to convert
[04:23:01] <ds2> I could use an SPI ADC but doubt the RT could would be very happy with that
[04:24:24] <ds2> i'll worry about that when i have a working extruder head
[04:24:44] <ds2> if you haven't seen it, I am loosely basing it off the design from www.reprap.org
[04:28:33] <ohiopctechDOTcom> use a pneumatic greas gun
[04:28:37] <ohiopctechDOTcom> grease even
[04:29:21] <ds2> don't think they will tolerate 200C
[04:29:59] <ohiopctechDOTcom> find an old school all steel one at a garage sale or a flea market
[04:30:08] <ohiopctechDOTcom> we got one at the shop
[04:30:12] <ds2> I rather build their extruder head
[04:30:22] <ohiopctechDOTcom> make a nozzle for it instead of the rubber hose and zerk fitting
[04:34:17] <ohiopctechDOTcom> search youtube for cnc vids of it
[04:34:19] <ohiopctechDOTcom> there is some nice ones
[04:34:44] <ohiopctechDOTcom> even if you watch the 100 bazillion dollar machines you may pick up some ideas for a homebrew machine
[04:36:05] <ohiopctechDOTcom> ohiopctechDOTcom is now known as chr0n1c
[08:44:28] <Skullworks-PGAB> SolidWorks for Rapid prototyping - it can work in/with STL files
[09:11:29] <Jymmm> couldnd it always?
[09:22:20] <Skullworks-PGAB> yes
[09:27:40] <Jymmm> ok, what am I missing here?
[09:27:44] <martin_lundstrom> Hello everyone
[09:28:53] <Jymmm> howdy martin_lundstrom
[09:32:12] <anonimasu> hello
[09:33:47] <martin_lundstrom> Hmm, Im getting a wierd thing when I load a gcode file, the Z is dropping for a short while and then up again to home height and then things are OK again. Anyone have a clue what it might depend on?
[09:35:43] <martin_lundstrom> This is when I run the THC config
[09:35:50] <Jymmm> Does eagle have DB25 connectors, or do I need to add some library?
[09:35:57] <anonimasu> hm..
[09:36:15] <martin_lundstrom> Jymmm: yes it hav
[09:36:18] <martin_lundstrom> e
[09:36:36] <Jymmm> any idea on the name they use?
[09:37:00] <martin_lundstrom> you are looking for a parallel port pattern?
[09:37:09] <martin_lundstrom> right!?
[09:37:16] <Jymmm> sure, why not =)
[09:37:39] <martin_lundstrom> I cant say where I found it in eagle but its there
[09:37:44] <Jymmm> lol
[09:48:50] <Jymmm> ty btw
[09:49:00] <Jymmm> ok, Eyes is outta here!
[09:57:57] <anonimasu> hm
[10:01:21] <anonimasu> What version of python does the HAL python library files depend on?
[10:03:43] <anonimasu> I just started looking at writing a UI with mono..
[10:04:08] <anonimasu> writing/planning
[10:04:34] <anonimasu> so I can make it panel based...
[10:06:46] <anonimasu> jepler: Can you throw me a message when you are here?
[10:41:51] <martin_lundstrom> The-Ball: Are you around?
[10:50:00] <anonimasu> im looking at making a ui that looks like one on a normal nc/cnc machine
[10:52:34] <martin_lundstrom> anonimasu: so you think axis dont do the work good enough?
[11:01:08] <anonimasu> martin_lundstrom: I think it's crappy to have to use the mouse for every little thing you want to do..
[11:02:27] <anonimasu> martin_lundstrom: I like how the heidenhain's.. work in the user interface..
[11:06:22] <lerneaen_hydra> anonimasu: touch screen?
[11:06:58] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: yeah and panel buttons..
[11:07:06] <anonimasu> touchscreens arent that great for shop use either
[11:07:48] <lerneaen_hydra> you could have buttons dedicated to the most used operations
[11:07:55] <lerneaen_hydra> hardware buttons
[11:07:58] <anonimasu> yep
[13:20:10] <jepler> anonimasu: almost all systems running emc2 use python2.4 (ubuntu dapper and breezy are in this group). feisty uses python2.5, and emc2 is known to build there, including all the python stuff.
[13:51:43] <jepler> but wouldn't it make more sense to write a native mono wrapper (whatever exactly that would be) for hal instead?
[14:31:18] <robin_sz> the ideal would be a USB interface to hardware buttons
[14:31:51] <robin_sz> the obvious choice being stripping out a USB keyboard chip from a cheap keayboard
[14:50:23] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[15:09:19] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[18:05:26] <anonimasu> roltek: nice
[18:05:50] <anonimasu> jepler: I'd like to be write a user interface that looks/acts like a normal control does.. because I like that
[18:06:17] <anonimasu> jepler: and mono intrefaces python.. that is istalled at all emc2 systems already..
[18:06:29] <anonimasu> jepler: actually I had some more questions about it :)
[18:06:41] <anonimasu> jepler: Im not sure how much work writing a wrapper would be that's why I wanted to reach you
[18:15:00] <Skullworks-PGAB> Anonimasu: - styled after what control?
[18:15:27] <anonimasu> I guess after heidenhain or fanuc.. or $random control..
[18:15:44] <alex_joni> mach :P
[18:15:48] <anonimasu> no way
[18:15:50] <alex_joni> * alex_joni rofl
[18:16:05] <alex_joni> turbocnc?
[18:16:12] <anonimasu> haha please :D
[18:16:45] <anonimasu> I'll be back in a little bit need to play with my dog
[18:17:09] <alex_joni> whatever makes you happy :P
[18:17:45] <anonimasu> haha it's about her..
[18:22:55] <anonimasu> iab
[18:24:22] <anonimasu> hey awallin
[18:24:32] <awallin> hi
[18:24:40] <awallin> did you see the video already? ;)
[18:25:05] <anonimasu> no
[18:25:07] <anonimasu> gimme it!
[18:25:07] <anonimasu> ยจ:D
[18:25:28] <awallin> shameless plug: http://www.anderswallin.net/2007/07/opti-bf20-in-action/
[18:25:46] <anonimasu> looking now
[18:26:19] <anonimasu> how heavy is that cut?
[18:26:29] <awallin> only 1.5mm deep
[18:26:40] <anonimasu> oh
[18:26:42] <anonimasu> :D
[18:26:49] <awallin> but probably about 15-20 mm in width I think
[18:26:55] <awallin> the cutter is 40mm diam.
[18:27:03] <anonimasu> yeah
[18:27:15] <anonimasu> how much can you take with a 6mm endmill?
[18:27:14] <awallin> well it's a hobby machine, you can't expect too much (if you're used to pro VMCs)
[18:27:24] <anonimasu> * anonimasu is very very much pondering
[18:27:30] <anonimasu> I can take 2 before it starts to sound bad..
[18:27:43] <anonimasu> I think my servos are too weak..
[18:27:47] <awallin> depends on the stepover, but probablu 3-4mm could be possible
[18:28:00] <anonimasu> ok
[18:28:00] <awallin> what spindle motor do you have
[18:28:01] <anonimasu> 5kw
[18:28:12] <awallin> I think in our case it's limited by the 1000W spindle motor
[18:28:14] <anonimasu> the problem is that the machine sounds bad..
[18:28:37] <anonimasu> I think that it's because the spindle pulls the servos out of position
[18:28:56] <anonimasu> so they oscillate..
[18:29:04] <anonimasu> the drives get's hot fast too to support my theory :)
[18:29:32] <awallin> * awallin is going for sauna now, back in 30min or so...
[18:29:46] <anonimasu> nice
[18:29:46] <anonimasu> damn you :)
[19:35:37] <lerneaen_hydra> awallin: nice pictures of the linear slide + ballscrew refit
[19:35:43] <lerneaen_hydra> awallin: how much did it cost (roughly)
[19:36:59] <awallin> the ballscrews and nuts are from metallstore. around 70eur for screw and 80 for nut I think
[19:37:17] <lerneaen_hydra> so around 150 per axis?
[19:37:27] <awallin> the rails are from ebay, don't remember how much, maybe 50eur per pair or something
[19:37:35] <lerneaen_hydra> not that bad actually
[19:37:51] <awallin> yes, we made the bearing holders ourselves, and got the bearings from somewhere too
[19:38:11] <lerneaen_hydra> would it be very much harder to have made everything from scratch to begin with?
[19:38:55] <awallin> we don't have a big mill for facing up to 500 or 700mm long parts
[19:39:16] <awallin> then there's the argument that a steel frame will resonate and cast-iron is supposedly much better
[19:39:22] <lerneaen_hydra> lets assume that you had had access to that ;)
[19:39:30] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm that's true
[19:39:40] <lerneaen_hydra> you could make it out of solid steel instead
[19:41:03] <awallin> yep, with a big mill making a base and a column would be possible
[19:41:25] <JymmmmEMC> NAh, make it out of 4000PIS concrete
[19:41:30] <JymmmmEMC> PSI
[19:41:41] <lerneaen_hydra> 4000 PISS
[19:41:48] <anonimasu> concrete isnt good.
[19:42:46] <awallin> at the level we want to be, we end up spending maybe around 6-8k, but that's still a lot less than a haas minimill at 35k....
[19:43:16] <lerneaen_hydra> are they that expensive?
[19:43:23] <Skullworks-PGAB> and it might be more reliable than a Haas
[19:43:26] <anonimasu> 1200eur..
[19:45:02] <awallin> I don't have a cost-list for you, but it all adds up: ballscrews, rails, axis-couplers, toolholders, vises, vector-vfd, spindle belts, pulleys, servos, servodrives+electronics etc.
[19:45:32] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah it adds up
[19:58:58] <JymmmmEMC> I have a question.... In the big industrial machinery, they use 24V for control voltage, right?
[19:59:30] <anonimasu> yes
[20:00:31] <JymmmmEMC> Ok, so if their E-stop circuitry is running 24v, how are they getting 24V, if the e-stop is running for 24V to shut off everything, not like 24V is common for mains or anything.
[20:02:10] <JymmmmEMC> 440/220/110 to 24, but if the estop is to shut off the 440/220/110 then there would be no 24
[20:02:30] <anonimasu> they have a 24V converter somewhere..
[20:02:33] <anonimasu> for logic..
[20:02:47] <anonimasu> probably a output of the actual control..
[20:03:07] <JymmmmEMC> anonimasu: you understnd what I'm saying?
[20:03:13] <anonimasu> JymmmmEMC: yes..
[20:03:17] <anonimasu> do you understand what im saying?
[20:03:42] <anonimasu> JymmmmEMC: on a real controller you have a 24V logic output..
[20:03:44] <JymmmmEMC> So what you are saying is that 440/220/110 is never completely removed from the system
[20:03:51] <anonimasu> yeah
[20:03:52] <JymmmmEMC> 100%
[20:04:06] <JymmmmEMC> k
[20:04:08] <anonimasu> it kills everything else but the control.....
[20:04:08] <Skullworks-PGAB> different powersupplies
[20:04:10] <anonimasu> yep
[20:04:27] <anonimasu> and the control feeds the other stuff 24v logic power
[20:04:39] <Skullworks-PGAB> all power to spindle and axis is killed
[20:04:39] <JymmmmEMC> but internal to the system, with a transfer feeding on the mains.
[20:04:45] <JymmmmEMC> xfmr
[20:04:49] <anonimasu> yeah
[20:05:28] <Skullworks-PGAB> power for encoders can stay on (if not using geckos)
[20:05:35] <anonimasu> yep :)
[20:06:23] <JymmmmEMC> Ok, so I just need to rethink marriss' estop a bit more.
[20:07:20] <JymmmmEMC> http://www.zshare.net/download/25017868923ace/
[20:08:05] <anonimasu> ok
[20:08:32] <JymmmmEMC> There's a flaw in the circuit I'm trying to figure out how to overcome
[20:08:48] <anonimasu> JymmmmEMC: why the hell dosent you just get a copy of the wiring standard for some real machine?
[20:09:06] <anonimasu> JymmmmEMC: thoose are certified for use in the industry it should be good enough for you
[20:09:16] <anonimasu> :)
[20:09:16] <JymmmmEMC> anonimasu: This is a challenge I'm trying to overcome.
[20:09:46] <anonimasu> ok
[20:10:15] <JymmmmEMC> If the START button is held down, the STOP button fails.
[20:11:22] <Skullworks-PGAB> use a 2 button circuit where both must be pressed to engage the latching relay
[20:12:02] <anonimasu> JymmmmEMC: have estop kill power to both of your buttons with a 2 pole relay..
[20:12:04] <JymmmmEMC> Skullworks-PGAB: That's one option, another is using two relays.
[20:12:52] <LawrenceG> JymmmmEMC: in a lot of the industrial control panels I did, we used a "pull on", "push off" mushroom where off was maintained.... this way, there is no on/off contention as it is handled mechanically in the switch
[20:13:03] <JymmmmEMC> *IF* I could get a slight delay, I could hook the top of the START to the NC contact instead of common.
[20:13:36] <Skullworks-PGAB> on new Okuma lathes you have to press 2 start buttons at the same time to start the spindle when the door is open - this makes it so you can't have any hands inside the machine
[20:14:07] <anonimasu> JymmmmEMC: I think thoose mushroom buttons have 2 terminals..
[20:14:08] <Skullworks-PGAB> buttons are on far sides of control panel
[20:14:10] <JymmmmEMC> Skullworks-PGAB: Yeah, I used to use a guiltine cutter like that, and it had to be within 350ms too
[20:14:21] <anonimasu> err actually I know they do..
[20:14:32] <anonimasu> JymmmmEMC: why not wire your buttons through the NC side of the button..
[20:14:38] <anonimasu> err the start button..
[20:14:41] <Skullworks-PGAB> ssome have 4 contacts
[20:14:44] <anonimasu> yep
[20:14:47] <anonimasu> that way you get around it..
[20:14:50] <Skullworks-PGAB> (Allen Bradley)
[20:14:58] <anonimasu> JymmmmEMC: how does that sound?
[20:15:07] <anonimasu> im not sure it gets simplier.. or safer..
[20:15:21] <JymmmmEMC> anonimasu: that will only work if I have a slight delay, or there'll be lots or arching
[20:15:24] <anonimasu> thoose buttons conform to the wiring standards of estop circuits..
[20:15:35] <anonimasu> JymmmmEMC: not really..
[20:16:01] <anonimasu> JymmmmEMC: start is a momentarily switch right?
[20:16:11] <Skullworks-PGAB> should be
[20:16:15] <anonimasu> yeo
[20:16:24] <anonimasu> Skullworks-PGAB: I dont know what jymm is thinking up
[20:17:40] <JymmmmEMC> anonimasu: Right, but as soon as you hit START, the coil engages, which pulls the contact down, which breaks the circuit. So there needs to be some slight delay to take into consideration for various relays and age.
[20:18:02] <anonimasu> eh?
[20:18:21] <anonimasu> if you hit start the circuit engages.. and gives you power.
[20:18:51] <JymmmmEMC> anonimasu: top of START being connected to NC, not C.
[20:20:57] <JymmmmEMC> anonimasu: see what I'm saying?
[20:21:33] <anonimasu> hm, no
[20:21:51] <SWPadnos> if you hit start when stop is off, the coil never engages
[20:21:54] <JymmmmEMC> anonimasu: You understand when I said there's a flaw originally, correct?
[20:22:04] <SWPadnos> the transformer gets power through the start button though
[20:22:26] <SWPadnos> so you have the transformer energized, but the load dump resistors still in the circuit
[20:23:00] <SWPadnos> you need a 3-pole contactor for this to work how you want
[20:23:00] <JymmmmEMC> SWPadnos: In that circuit as it stands, even if you hit STOP, if the START is held down/stuck, it completes the circuit.
[20:23:38] <SWPadnos> it keeps the transformer working, but it doesn't let the relay work, so the load dump resistor will still be connmected
[20:23:42] <SWPadnos> =m
[20:23:46] <SWPadnos> -m
[20:24:18] <JymmmmEMC> that too =)
[20:25:00] <SWPadnos> so if you separate the relay coil from the transformer, using a 3-pole contactor, all is well (remove the short vertical wire next to the start button)
[20:25:44] <SWPadnos> you definitely don't want this circuit as it stands though - as it is, it'll run full transformer inrush current through your start switch
[20:25:57] <SWPadnos> (good eyes - I had never noticed that :) )
[20:27:18] <JymmmmEMC> Heh, the ratings on my switches will far exceed the ratings of the relays I'll be using =)
[20:28:49] <anonimasu> OH YEAH..
[20:28:56] <anonimasu> that's pretty crappy..
[20:29:10] <anonimasu> you dont want the full power through the switch..
[20:29:23] <SWPadnos> I suspect Mariss had them separate at first, then decided to get rid of the extra relay contact by connecting the hot contacts together
[20:31:30] <JymmmmEMC> SWPadnos: isn't that for the latching aspect?
[20:31:43] <SWPadnos> nope
[20:32:13] <SWPadnos> you need 3 relay contacts: one for the resistor, one for the transformer, and one so the relay keeps itself on
[20:32:56] <SWPadnos> actually, you can use a NC/NO pair and alternately swap the resistor and line to the transformer hot leg
[20:32:58] <JymmmmEMC> and me with just DPDT relays
[20:33:15] <SWPadnos> (so the transformer is the common, NC is the resistor, and NO is line in)
[20:34:04] <SWPadnos> yeah - just connect the transformer to the NO of the top relay contact in that schematic (and remove that hort vertical I mentioned before)
[20:34:07] <JymmmmEMC> can you dump the caps in that way (before the bridge)?
[20:34:07] <SWPadnos> s/hort/short/
[20:34:17] <SWPadnos> err - no :)
[20:34:35] <SWPadnos> so I'm back to "you need 3 relay contacts ..." ;)
[20:34:40] <JymmmmEMC> lol
[20:38:24] <JymmmmEMC> Well, I'm not going to have 110V going thru my estop circuit anyway - that's all I need =)
[20:38:52] <JymmmmEMC> so disregard the inrush
[20:39:15] <SWPadnos> it's still not a good idea to have machine power going through a button you press with your finger
[20:39:30] <SWPadnos> control power is OK, machine power isn't ok. at least that's my opinion
[20:39:49] <JymmmmEMC> I'm ging to use 12VDC
[20:39:52] <SWPadnos> methinks it's time to go upstairs and grill some food. bbl
[20:40:07] <SWPadnos> ok - that requires separate contacts then ;)
[20:40:46] <JymmmmEMC> Yeah, I'll have a MAIN switch, that'll turn on the control voltage PS, with will be seperate from estop
[20:41:23] <JymmmmEMC> s/with/which/
[20:42:19] <anonimasu> *yawns*
[21:46:55] <anonimasu> hm
[21:47:17] <anonimasu> http://imagebin.org/9156
[21:55:37] <robin_sz> hey JymmmmEMC , got those stepper drivers and PSU running yet?
[21:57:10] <robin_sz> anonimasu, eeeuuuwww, not the goatse man again?
[21:57:30] <anonimasu> robin_sz: heh..
[22:14:37] <maddash> what's the difference between a logic cell and a "gate" on a fpga?
[22:26:06] <CIA-8> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/man/man9/.cvsignore: new comps
[22:28:13] <robin_sz> maddash, I thought they were the same thing
[22:28:31] <robin_sz> maddash, or do the gates connect the logic cells to the grids?
[22:29:16] <maddash> me too, until I realized that jepler's fpga only had ~550 cells
[22:32:27] <jepler> different FPGAs are organized in different ways. The ACEX FPGA is organized into "cells" -- one "cell" includes a lookup table and a 1-bit register, plus a bunch of selects, enables, inverts, muxes, etc.
[22:32:46] <jepler> in the case of ACEX, the small device with ~550 cells is claimed to be equivalent to "10,000 gates"
[22:35:17] <maddash> jepler: both altera and xilinx always list the number of gates and logic cells (or logic "elements" in altera's case) simultaneously, so it seems as though they denote two different things
[22:35:18] <jepler> see http://www.altera.com/literature/ds/acex.pdf page 16 for a picture of what is in one of these cells (called "LE" by altera)
[22:38:53] <maddash> high density doesn't come cheap...
[22:39:05] <jepler> I think the details of how many cells there are is like MHz, and the number of "gates" is a benchmarketing number, like MIPS is
[22:39:51] <anonimasu> true
[22:46:45] <maddash> MIPS = "mega instructions per second" or the MIPS architecture?
[22:50:11] <jepler> MIPS as in meaningless indication of processor speed (the benchmark)
[22:56:23] <maddash> doesn't the number of cells dictate how large your program can get? so isn't it more akin to MB?
[22:57:26] <robin_sz> kinda
[22:57:33] <robin_sz> number of cells is one thing
[22:57:50] <robin_sz> but its easy to run out of interconnects too in some FPGA toplogies
[23:02:56] <maddash> ah, if all goes well tonight, my cousin might let me use his pick-and-place to build myself an fpga board
[23:05:04] <anonimasu> maddash: is he building one?
[23:09:14] <maddash> anonimasu: no, I am
[23:11:02] <anonimasu> ok
[23:20:27] <jepler> maddash: OK, then the number of cells is like GB, and the number of gates is like how many MP3s it is advertised as holding
[23:24:53] <maddash> haha.
[23:26:13] <maddash> jepler: did you place both the quadrature and pwm modules inside the same pluto board?
[23:26:51] <maddash> jepler: because i have a hard time seeing how only those two modules take up almost 500 LE
[23:27:37] <jepler> it's my first fpga project, it's possible that it's extravagantly wasteful of chip resources
[23:28:11] <maddash> ok, brb.