#emc | Logs for 2007-06-10

[00:00:03] <anonimasu> hey tomp
[00:00:23] <tomp> anonimasu: hello, how you?
[00:00:33] <anonimasu> im ok
[00:00:38] <anonimasu> working lots
[00:01:07] <tomp> work is good, lots is sometimes not ;)
[00:01:26] <anonimasu> yep
[00:03:25] <Skullworks-PGAB> Skunk - key to that is the G100 so the whole idea goes in the shitter without it.
[00:04:30] <skunkworks> right - need to be coordinated.
[00:04:52] <Skullworks-PGAB> its a great deal for him, he sells a bunch of drives and a G100 and pawns the config off on Art... What a scam!
[00:05:26] <JymmmmEMC> fuck I'm tired!
[00:05:58] <JymmmmEMC> I thought eating would help recover, but it didn't this time.
[00:06:24] <Skullworks-PGAB> yeah I'm tired too - and in a few years I'd like to be re-tired.
[00:06:48] <JymmmmEMC> I was weed eating the back and side yard.
[00:07:15] <JymmmmEMC> 3 ft tall crap
[00:07:24] <JymmmmEMC> LOTS AND LOTS OF MINT
[00:07:25] <Skullworks-PGAB> while not Politically correct a flame thrower might have been more fun.
[00:07:51] <JymmmmEMC> Already thought of that. City has an ordinance againest buring
[00:08:03] <Skullworks-PGAB> but of course
[00:08:18] <JymmmmEMC> We used to when I was a kid on the fence lines.
[00:08:40] <Skullworks-PGAB> call a Veit restraunt - free mint!
[00:08:47] <JymmmmEMC> Just WAY too many bugs and bigger issue yet was the fire hazard.
[00:09:27] <JymmmmEMC> Once I've cleared it all, I'm going to salt the ground.
[00:10:03] <JymmmmEMC> except near the trees... I'll weed killer that area
[00:11:05] <JymmmmEMC> I will say this much, the sheer about of bugs have SERIOUSLY dropper within the last 8 days
[00:11:29] <JymmmmEMC> and I haven't even bug sprayed yet.
[00:11:29] <Skullworks-PGAB> We had such a wet spring that the wild flowers have exploded across the prairie - so most of the bugs have stayed out of town and are out where all the good stuff is.
[00:12:04] <JymmmmEMC> Well, this place hasn't been maintained in 4 years. So there that much growth all around.
[00:12:33] <JymmmmEMC> I've already gone thru about 150 ft of weed eater line.
[00:12:42] <Skullworks-PGAB> Bobcat with front rototiller
[00:13:03] <JymmmmEMC> Yeah, no doubt.
[00:13:29] <JymmmmEMC> Well, the ground is almost bare now. Just have to haul the hay stacks to the front curb
[00:14:30] <JymmmmEMC> There is one raised planter box along the back fence. I'll keep that clean with weed killer just in case we want to plant anything.
[00:15:38] <JymmmmEMC> Maybe grapes... long enough stretch to toss up a simple lattice work for the grpes vines to grow on.
[00:33:11] <jepler> hello! from fest
[00:44:21] <Skullworks-PGAB> so the party has started
[00:47:32] <jepler> Skullworks-PGAB: yhou could call it that
[00:47:38] <jepler> cradek, john k and I are here so far
[00:47:40] <jepler> more expected tomorrow
[00:50:28] <petev> you guys pretty tired or do you want to discuss some funny interp behavior I have seen?
[00:51:24] <jepler> another time would be better
[00:51:28] <petev> ok
[00:54:45] <cradek> greetings
[00:57:10] <skunkworks> cool
[01:10:29] <Skullworks-PGAB> peteV those issues sound scary
[01:10:51] <petev> yes, I was a bit surprised when I saw the behavior
[01:11:09] <Skullworks-PGAB> what type tool changer?
[01:11:36] <petev> it's just manual with some PLC interlocks on buttons, so it didn't cause any harm
[01:12:11] <petev> I was making some dry runs before actually cutting anything real
[01:12:38] <Skullworks-PGAB> well taking off in MDI also would have spooked me
[01:14:22] <Skullworks-PGAB> this a new build - or a working unit that had the ver of EMC2 just updated?
[01:14:47] <petev> I have always been running trunk/head
[01:15:03] <petev> it wasn't updated for a few weeks, but the behavior is in the latest code
[01:15:16] <petev> I just updated and tried it
[01:15:56] <petev> do you see similar behavior on your install?
[01:16:08] <petev> I see the same thing on the real machine or on sim
[01:16:39] <Skullworks-PGAB> I'm still getting the iron sorted out - but I will be building a fresh box to run SIM
[01:17:23] <Skullworks-PGAB> going to use the SIM to help refine the POST code from my cad/cam
[01:17:38] <petev> which cad/cam?
[01:18:27] <Skullworks-PGAB> have several versions of Bobcad also a 2004 version of SolidCAM plugin for Solidworks
[01:18:51] <petev> don't have any of those, or I would send you a post
[01:19:14] <petev> I started from a fanuc post, the changes were pretty minor
[01:19:49] <Skullworks-PGAB> they have a generic - but I will add O-word sub support
[01:20:05] <Skullworks-PGAB> and other stuff
[01:20:22] <petev> how will cam use the O-word?
[01:21:27] <Skullworks-PGAB> able to call incramental subs and user defined G-codes
[01:21:48] <petev> but how will the cam know how to use them?
[01:22:01] <petev> I have not seen any cam that you could teach new cycles to
[01:22:21] <Skullworks-PGAB> Bobcad has a "insert sub" function
[01:22:23] <petev> they usually know some set of cycles, and then you map them to some g-code in the post
[01:22:38] <petev> how do you tell bobcad what the sub does?
[01:22:52] <Skullworks-PGAB> you don't
[01:22:58] <petev> does it generate calls to the sub itself?
[01:23:01] <Skullworks-PGAB> no
[01:23:15] <petev> so it's a manual edit of the generated g-code?
[01:23:45] <Skullworks-PGAB> you are going thru defining the machining process, and at whatever point insert the sub call
[01:24:26] <petev> you put this in the machining operations tree or in the g-code output?
[01:24:32] <Skullworks-PGAB> prior to ver 2007 Bobcad used an interactive POST
[01:24:55] <Skullworks-PGAB> they went to the tree type post in 2007
[01:25:41] <tomp> is the fest this week?
[01:26:00] <Skullworks-PGAB> it was good because you were able to scroll thru the G-code and watch the tool move for each line of code
[01:26:01] <petev> yes
[01:27:17] <Skullworks-PGAB> it was bad becaise you had to completely repeat the post/machining define process to output for a different machine control
[01:28:26] <Skullworks-PGAB> People got what they paid for - but it requires a very different style to be good at
[01:29:08] <Skullworks-PGAB> I bought V10 - DOS in 1990 and ran it on a 286
[01:29:20] <petev> wow
[01:30:09] <Skullworks-PGAB> I still use V12 (DOS) alot because the hotkey drawing is sooo much faster than the windows based
[01:31:00] <Skullworks-PGAB> pete - good example of insertable Oword call
[01:31:16] <Skullworks-PGAB> a threadmilling macro
[01:32:07] <Skullworks-PGAB> BC just moves to the hole center - insert Oword- rapid to next hole
[01:32:14] <petev> I understand the use of an O word, I just don't see the value of it with cam, if the cam doesn't understand it or know how to call it
[01:33:16] <petev> maybe you could define a canned cycle the cam knows about to call the O word or something
[01:33:29] <Skullworks-PGAB> its not so important in EMC - we don't have tight memory limits
[01:33:57] <Skullworks-PGAB> but for the other machine I use - MEM is a premium
[01:34:26] <Skullworks-PGAB> the High Speed Okuma I use only has 32K program space
[01:34:49] <petev> yes, reminds me of my machine before the retrofit
[01:35:12] <Skullworks-PGAB> what was it - once upon a time?
[01:35:27] <petev> a Bridgeport with BOSS6 control
[01:35:36] <petev> 32K words total address space
[01:35:51] <petev> LSI-11 CPU (LSI verion of DEC PDP11)
[01:36:01] <petev> it was painfull to use
[01:36:06] <Skullworks-PGAB> I started out on a BP with a Bandit control
[01:36:06] <anonimasu> :/
[01:37:07] <Skullworks-PGAB> punched out paper tapes on a teletype to load into the machine... no cutter R comp.
[01:37:41] <anonimasu> :/
[01:37:48] <anonimasu> I wouldnt like cnc if I had to live with that
[01:40:12] <Skullworks-PGAB> ha - you should have tried the first CAD/CAM I used - on an Apple][+ with 64K ram... talk about painfully slow - 4 minutes to add a fillet radius.
[01:40:35] <anonimasu> lol
[01:40:39] <anonimasu> my calculator has more ram then that
[01:42:21] <Skullworks-PGAB> so do many watches
[01:42:52] <anonimasu> :)
[01:43:00] <Skullworks-PGAB> they are selling 16GB usb pen drives for $99 now...
[01:49:29] <anonimasu> night
[01:50:32] <Skullworks-PGAB> anonimasu: night
[02:31:20] <tomp> Is "pre-2.2" == 2.1.x ? (the wiki has instructions on how to upgrade to 2.1.6 ( which i guess is the latest ) and talks about upgrading from 2.0.x and 2.1.x, while mine is named 'EMC2 pre-2.2 CVS HEAD' . )
[02:32:25] <Skullworks-PGAB> something like that...
[02:32:33] <tomp> hehe
[02:33:02] <Skullworks-PGAB> think I will stick with 2.1.5 for a bit...
[02:34:16] <tomp> ok, i'll review irc history for last couple weeks then, thanks
[02:34:19] <jmkasunich> pre-2.2 is where all the new work is being done
[02:34:33] <jmkasunich> it will become 2.2 eventually
[02:34:43] <jmkasunich> http://linuxcnc.org/compile_farm/festcam.shtml
[02:35:01] <jmkasunich> not currently updating, not much going on
[02:35:07] <jmkasunich> but it should be working tomorrow
[02:35:40] <Skullworks-PGAB> streaming at 1/min?
[02:36:04] <jmkasunich> actually I think its set up to take a pic every 5 mins
[02:36:07] <jmkasunich> but we can change that here
[02:36:29] <jmkasunich> the page on the server tells your browser to reload every minute
[02:37:34] <tomp> hi John, looks like the sameo place. hope it doesnt get too warm.
[02:40:03] <jmkasunich> comfy right now ;-)
[02:52:11] <Jymmm> Got some ugly suckers there this year!
[02:57:22] <Skullworks-PGAB> JMK is that server timestamp GMT?
[02:58:17] <jepler> Skullworks-PGAB: must be
[03:27:37] <jmk-solo> jmk-solo is now known as jmk2
[03:38:20] <CIA-2> 03petev 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/rs274ngc/interp_convert.cc: -Jepler's fix for bug #1734261 (M6 doesn't stop spindle).
[04:17:10] <CIA-2> 03petev 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/components/biquad.comp: -Cleaned up description formatting for man page.
[04:22:47] <steves_logging> steves_logging is now known as steve_stallings
[04:51:11] <CIA-2> 03petev 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/components/boss_plc.c: -Added conditioning for coolant during tool change.
[05:02:04] <Gene> join #fedora-admin
[05:09:52] <CIA-2> 03petev 07TRUNK * 10emc2/configs/boss/boss.hal: -Added conditioning for coolant during tool change.
[05:18:51] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[07:29:24] <The-Ball> what is the difference between stepgen_maxvel and maxvel_
[10:55:25] <alex_joni> The-Ball: maxvel is the max speed commanded by the emc trajectory planner
[10:55:56] <alex_joni> however sometimes the stepgen can get a bit behind the commanded position, and needs to output pulses a bit faster to catch up with the commanded position
[10:56:06] <alex_joni> that means it needs to have a bit of headroom
[11:39:19] <The-Ball> alex_joni, thanks for that explanation
[11:47:16] <The-Ball> after running the default EMC2 AXIS logo and returning to 0,0 the machine not in the original possition. If I jog it to the right possition the coordinates are x=-5.1 and y=8.6. Any ideas? I don't think it is slippage in the motor linkages but maybe lost steps?
[12:03:20] <robin_sz> I wish I could get this poxy sounds like lost steps
[12:03:40] <robin_sz> sounds like lost steps
[12:06:05] <alex_joni> The-Ball: I think you might have some offsets active
[12:06:10] <alex_joni> did you use touch-off?
[12:09:04] <The-Ball> no, just started emc set each axis to home and started
[12:09:15] <The-Ball> then into MDI and g0x0y0
[12:09:18] <alex_joni> oh
[12:09:21] <alex_joni> sounds like lost steps
[12:09:34] <The-Ball> yes, each letter is slightly below the previous
[12:09:38] <alex_joni> maybe you have some drivers wich require special timings
[12:09:43] <alex_joni> for reversals
[12:09:53] <alex_joni> or your accel/speed constraints are too high
[12:10:53] <The-Ball> this is servo drives, in puls/dir mode, the input can be puls/dir, cw&ccw, or q4, and the input is rated at 1Mhz i think
[12:11:10] <alex_joni> what kind of drives?
[12:11:14] <alex_joni> manufacturer/model
[12:11:46] <The-Ball> is it easy to configure emc for cw/ccw? it's some ge/fanuc s2k motion controllers
[12:12:17] <The-Ball> the exact model would be IMJ-313E-X-D
[12:19:33] <Skullworks-PGAB> Program all in G90 or is there some G91?
[12:20:05] <Skullworks-PGAB> I almost suspect bad G-code
[12:21:55] <The-Ball> Skullworks-PGAB, are you talking to me?
[12:22:43] <cradek> if the cut of the splash screen looks different from the preview, it's not the gcode...
[12:23:10] <cradek> start with jogs back and forth - see if you lose position
[12:23:16] <cradek> no need to run a complex program yet
[12:24:54] <The-Ball> cradek, I have done some long g0x300 and back that look good, but I will test the y axis as well. There might be something with the change of direction like alex_joni suggested
[12:25:30] <cradek> definitely could be
[12:25:49] <cradek> some drives require a lot of waiting after the direction pin changes - otherwise they step in the "old" direction
[12:26:15] <The-Ball> i might just try to put a big delay on the change and see if it improves
[12:26:18] <cradek> did you see thw software step generation wiki page?
[12:27:06] <The-Ball> yes, I have read it bout a week ago, I will have to reread it. My printer port is going to a breadboard for breakout, that might introduce noise?
[12:27:30] <cradek> yes maybe
[12:27:38] <cradek> what are the drives?
[12:28:06] <The-Ball> ge/fanuc/whedco IMJ-313E-X-D
[12:29:18] <cradek> ah I bet you can find data for them then
[12:29:34] <The-Ball> i have about 1k pages on them...
[12:29:46] <The-Ball> doesn't say anything about change of direction though
[12:30:02] <cradek> hmm maybe the trick is finding the right 1 page!
[12:30:17] <cradek> I'm surprised there aren't timing requirements for the input signals
[12:30:24] <The-Ball> the input is configurable for cw/ccw, dir/puls, q4 mode with 1Mhz bandwidth,
[12:30:45] <cradek> cw/ccw = separate up/down step inputs?
[12:30:54] <The-Ball> maybe I could try cw/ccw instead? do you know if the stepper module can be set for that? yes one line for each direction
[12:31:33] <cradek> definitely use that then
[12:31:33] <cradek> that's much better than step/dir
[12:33:52] <The-Ball> QTX=CW will change that on the serial port, i'll search the wiki to find out how to change hal to cw/ccw
[12:34:02] <cradek> see "step types" section of the integrators manual
[12:34:48] <cradek> pg 103 here (emc 2.1.6)
[12:35:13] <cradek> shortcut to it on applications/cnc menu
[12:36:10] <The-Ball> ah, cheers
[12:37:05] <The-Ball> I took this picture just now, shows the drives: http://wigen.net/cncsetup.jpg
[12:47:12] <The-Ball> ok, up and running with cw/ccw, man HAL is great
[12:47:41] <cradek> yay, that was fast
[12:49:33] <The-Ball> hmm, no joy, still missing steps
[12:50:30] <cradek> if your machine is modern, you may have a 3.3v parport - are you sure the drives are ok with that?
[12:51:33] <cradek> I know emc generates the right number of steps, but I suspect something is incompatible with your drives
[12:51:42] <The-Ball> hmm, might have to bring out the scope, the drive manual suggested using 470ohm pullup resistors for single ended inputs, so im putting those back now
[12:51:50] <cradek> ah
[12:51:54] <The-Ball> oh yes, im sure emc generates the steps
[12:54:20] <The-Ball> im still very excited to be at this stage, and jogging the table with the wireles joypad you see in the picture is so cool
[12:54:55] <cradek> eek, hope it stops if it loses reception
[12:55:53] <cradek> I bet you are close - it will be one finicky thing in your wiring or pullups or whatever, and it will track
[12:55:53] <The-Ball> don't jinx it! if i increase the base period that would create wider steps right?
[12:56:37] <cradek> what does the manual say is the min step width?
[12:58:41] <The-Ball> i think it's 1mhz or so, so far beond this
[12:59:39] <cradek> yeah that seems unlikely to be the problem
[13:00:26] <The-Ball> i have increased the base period to 60ns and 14% feed rate, looks promising
[13:01:13] <The-Ball> maybe adding schmit triggers or opto isolators to the lines would do the trick
[13:01:36] <cradek> yeah, also make sure if your drives require 5v signals they are getting it
[13:01:44] <cradek> you might have 3.3
[13:03:02] <The-Ball> they are double ended, so as far as i know it's like a op-amp, when a+ crosses a- there will be a rising edge and "visa versa", a- and b- are now tied to a voltage divider at 2.5v
[13:03:56] <cradek> they probably have hysteresis and 3.3v-2.5v is not very much - I'd check that first
[13:04:05] <The-Ball> the printer outputs have pullup resistors 470ohm and they are sourcing arnt they?
[13:04:49] <cradek> the outputs are not OC, but I think they vary
[13:05:21] <The-Ball> ok, i'll get my voltmeter and some schmitt triggers
[13:11:53] <The-Ball> good call cradek, this is an old amd t-bird, but the voltage is 3.5
[13:13:20] <cradek> that might be the whole problem depending on what hysteresis it has
[13:13:26] <cradek> you're on track :-)
[13:51:41] <The-Ball> cradek, definately alot better, but still a little bit out, should the parallel port pin going into the schmitt trigger have a pullup resistor?
[13:54:19] <The-Ball> the x axis is good, but the y still loses about 1 mm
[14:30:49] <alex_joni> try to see if it's speed related
[14:51:43] <The-Ball> no, im trying g0 codes on one axis at very slow speed to check and there are lost steps still
[14:52:43] <The-Ball> tell me, when you do a g0 jog, does the velosity stay constant in the gui? mine goes up and down quite a bit
[14:57:59] <The-Ball> im installing the bitscope software to have a look at the raw signal
[15:02:06] <cradek> in 2.1 the velocity estimate is not very good. in 2.2, it's very good now (2.2 is not quite released yet)
[15:06:00] <The-Ball> ah ok, so it's normal and not what is causing my grief
[15:08:29] <cradek> yeah, it's normal
[15:16:15] <alex_joni> The-Ball: you should be using G1 with F-words
[15:16:36] <The-Ball> i don't know them, does that make a difference?
[15:17:59] <alex_joni> G0 always goes at max machine speed
[15:18:08] <alex_joni> with G1 you specify the speed with an additional parameter
[15:18:11] <alex_joni> G1 X10 F10
[15:18:19] <alex_joni> will go to X10 at 10 mm/min
[15:18:31] <The-Ball> ah, thanks
[15:19:27] <alex_joni> gotta runh
[15:19:30] <alex_joni> bbl
[15:19:35] <The-Ball> thanks again
[15:47:08] <The-Ball> hmm, all signals before and after the schmitt trigger looks very clean
[15:54:00] <The-Ball> 20uS per pulse was the worst case I saw
[16:56:48] <CIA-2> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/components/tristate_bit.comp: tristate buffer of type 'bit'
[17:13:39] <CIA-2> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/config.h.in:
[17:13:39] <CIA-2> reduce inclusion of interp_internal.hh
[17:13:39] <CIA-2> move some interpreter constants out of config.h(.in)
[17:13:40] <CIA-2> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/nml_intf/emc_nml.hh:
[17:13:40] <CIA-2> reduce inclusion of interp_internal.hh
[17:13:41] <CIA-2> move some interpreter constants out of config.h(.in)
[17:13:41] <CIA-2> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/rs274ngc/ (6 files):
[17:13:43] <CIA-2> reduce inclusion of interp_internal.hh
[17:13:47] <CIA-2> move some interpreter constants out of config.h(.in)
[17:13:49] <CIA-2> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/sai/driver.cc:
[17:13:51] <CIA-2> reduce inclusion of interp_internal.hh
[17:13:53] <CIA-2> move some interpreter constants out of config.h(.in)
[17:13:56] <CIA-2> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/task/emctaskmain.cc:
[17:13:58] <CIA-2> reduce inclusion of interp_internal.hh
[17:14:00] <CIA-2> move some interpreter constants out of config.h(.in)
[17:44:33] <jepler> hi skunkworks
[18:32:22] <anonimasu> tomp: can you throw me a message when you get back
[19:17:47] <alex_joni> yay for hamilton
[19:18:09] <JymmmmEMC> Alexander Hamilton (no pun intended)
[19:18:10] <JymmmmEMC> ?
[19:18:32] <alex_joni> no, louis
[19:18:38] <alex_joni> the one driving in formula 1
[19:18:41] <JymmmmEMC> nfc
[19:18:52] <alex_joni> his 6th race ever, and he won
[19:19:01] <JymmmmEMC> ah, gotcha. Never was into formula racing, prefer nascar
[19:19:02] <alex_joni> the first 5 he was in the first 3
[19:19:05] <JymmmmEMC> or turck racing
[19:19:14] <alex_joni> quite an interesting newcomer
[19:21:37] <JymmmmEMC> jepler gave me a url for "currnet loop" last week, and I've been reading up on it a bit. Even found an IC for it, but gawd if I still just don't "get it" completely. Not the concept, but the principals of it. Constant current circuits throw me a curve.
[19:24:28] <petev> JymmmmEMC, what are u trying to do?
[19:25:58] <JymmmmEMC> petev: Our original conversation was about sending a pulse thru the estop (mushroom) button chain to sorta kinda use to detect shorts, etc. Jepler mentioned using current-loop ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_loop#Process-control_use ) so I've been reading upa bit on it.
[19:27:00] <petev> shorts to machine ground?
[19:27:18] <petev> if so, why not just make the active low state e-stop?
[19:27:27] <JymmmmEMC> As example, if there was a short between the pair JUST before the stop button, the button would be useless.
[19:27:30] <petev> this is the approach I took with all of my IO
[19:27:54] <petev> short to what, and adjacent wire?
[19:28:36] <JymmmmEMC> Like if the cable pair going to the mushroom rubbed againest a sharp edge and shorted out.
[19:28:47] <petev> if you make the low state e-stop, shorting to machine ground or and open chain will e-stop
[19:28:55] <petev> and^an
[19:29:32] <petev> the opto receivers need current flowing, so ground one end of it, and tie the other to your e-stop chain
[19:29:34] <JymmmmEMC> petev: Yeah, that's what jmkasunich was talking about.
[19:30:00] <JymmmmEMC> petev: I'm using a latching relay.
[19:30:27] <JymmmmEMC> Well, a relay in a latching configuration that is.
[19:30:36] <petev> should still work, the relay need current to maintain
[19:30:57] <petev> so if the chain open, or shorts, there will be no current and estop will be asserted
[19:31:32] <petev> I don't think you need anything fancier, and even if you had some fancy test, that would only help during testing, not normal operation
[19:31:36] <JymmmmEMC> Right, but if the chain shorts out just before the muchroom, it bypasses the switch and still maintains the loop
[19:32:12] <petev> what? shorts to what? if the chain is at the IO voltage, shorting to machine ground is the same as opening the button
[19:32:50] <petev> I wouldn't worry about shorting to anything other than machine ground
[19:33:08] <petev> machine ground is the most likely short
[19:33:18] <JymmmmEMC> (+)-----/ .--------(-)
[19:33:18] <JymmmmEMC> | |
[19:33:18] <JymmmmEMC> +--SHORT--+
[19:33:37] <JymmmmEMC> I hope that came thru ok
[19:33:46] <petev> you think you will get a short across the button without shorting to anything else?
[19:33:57] <petev> how would this happen?
[19:33:59] <JymmmmEMC> anything is possible.
[19:34:05] <petev> what would short the wires like that?
[19:34:08] <JymmmmEMC> could be a loos connector
[19:34:23] <petev> it would have to be some metal, which is most likely at machine ground
[19:34:44] <petev> I would try and handle the likely cases, not the totaly improbably ones
[19:34:52] <petev> improbable
[19:35:29] <JymmmmEMC> I understand, but it's possible (in theory), and I've just been pondering an alternative solution to it is all.
[19:36:28] <petev> any alternative would require more effort, like maintaining a pulse train to be out of estop, or something like that
[19:37:09] <JymmmmEMC> Yeah, that's why I was looking into current loop
[19:37:22] <anonimasu> eh..
[19:37:39] <anonimasu> JymmmmEMC: look at how commercial machines do it..
[19:37:44] <anonimasu> copy and paste..
[19:39:22] <anonimasu> alex_joni: you there?
[19:39:55] <alex_joni> yup
[19:40:28] <anonimasu> how did it go for that driver in the crash?
[19:40:40] <alex_joni> not really sure if anything is broken yet
[19:40:44] <JymmmmEMC> I used a papr cutter once that had two buttons to operate it. Not only did you have to hit (and hold) buth buttons, you have to press both of them down at the same time (within 1 or 2 seconds) to operate it. I thought that was pretty cool, but never heard any (timer?) relay kick in, so I'm not sure exactly how that worked. Probably electronics of some sort.
[19:40:51] <alex_joni> might be a knuckle, but other than that he's fine
[19:40:58] <alex_joni> kubica I think was the unlucky one
[19:41:11] <anonimasu> the big crash?
[19:41:22] <alex_joni> yup
[19:41:46] <anonimasu> how did it go for him?
[19:42:11] <alex_joni> last I heard they were checking if anything is broken
[19:42:15] <alex_joni> nothing major though
[19:42:16] <anonimasu> ok
[19:42:18] <anonimasu> was he concious?
[19:42:24] <anonimasu> I just saw the crash and nothing more
[19:42:29] <JymmmmEMC> But my original comment wasn't about WHY, but how =)
[19:42:34] <alex_joni> they took him stright to the hospital
[19:42:38] <alex_joni> straight even
[19:42:47] <petev> JymmmmEMC, the two hand button things are usually used on machines where they want to know where your hands are before a cycle starts
[19:42:48] <alex_joni> afterwards said he's fine
[19:43:13] <alex_joni> petev: e.g. machines where you can stick hands between moving parts
[19:43:17] <petev> yes
[19:43:21] <JymmmmEMC> petev: yep =) and for good reason with a 3/4" thick blade =)
[19:43:43] <anonimasu> JymmmmEMC: I think you are overworking your estop..
[19:43:44] <anonimasu> :)
[19:43:52] <alex_joni> usually when you push the 2 buttons a thick screen comes down and protects stuff
[19:43:53] <JymmmmEMC> anonimasu: Yep
[19:43:55] <anonimasu> go with a configuration that's demed safe for selling..
[19:44:03] <JymmmmEMC> alex_joni: Not on this
[19:44:04] <alex_joni> so afterwards you can fo anything with your hands without damage
[19:44:15] <jtr> JymmmmEMC: If you want some redundancy, run two E-stop loops through all your buttons - one normally open, the other normally closed. Closure on one or open on the other triggers E-stop.
[19:44:50] <petev> how do you make a loop of normaly open?
[19:44:50] <JymmmmEMC> jtr: Thought about that to.
[19:45:16] <alex_joni> petev: wire in parallel
[19:45:23] <alex_joni> they need to be all open
[19:45:25] <petev> yeah, but that is not a loop
[19:45:49] <alex_joni> petev: "loop"
[19:45:53] <anonimasu> JymmmmEMC: hundreds of people run machines without estops..
[19:46:04] <jtr> petev: sorry - sleepin on the job. caught me.
[19:46:04] <anonimasu> I dont see many dead minimill users...
[19:46:05] <JymmmmEMC> petev: I think he's thinking about a DPDT switch. if it shorts, somethings up.
[19:46:30] <anonimasu> ew..
[19:46:32] <anonimasu> that's f-ugly
[19:46:37] <petev> JymmmmEMC, is this really all for a mini mill?
[19:46:41] <anonimasu> buy a real certified estop switch..
[19:46:47] <JymmmmEMC> petev: nope
[19:46:55] <anonimasu> it's a router..
[19:47:30] <eric_1> i'm gonna have to say that the emc live CD doesn't really work that well as a rescue disk ;)
[19:47:37] <JymmmmEMC> It's all you guys ranting about ESTOP and "common usage/application", I'm just playing around with ideas/concepts in general.
[19:48:01] <alex_joni> eric_1: it's not a rescue disk
[19:48:05] <JymmmmEMC> I just asked about current loops and the whole constant current stuff.
[19:48:08] <anonimasu> JymmmmEMC: there's a reason there's a standard for how estop should work..
[19:48:19] <anonimasu> and how it should be implemented
[19:48:23] <JymmmmEMC> anonimasu: read my last statement
[19:48:56] <petev> JymmmmEMC, how would a current loop help? What would constant current buy in this application?
[19:49:19] <anonimasu> petev: that with a short he would lose the power to the estop relay..
[19:49:33] <anonimasu> JymmmmEMC: I read it and I ignored it
[19:49:33] <petev> that doesn't require constant current
[19:49:35] <JymmmmEMC> petev: what application? Again, I'm talking constant current and my lack of knowledge and trying to understand it all.
[19:50:05] <petev> you can view a current source as a voltage source with an infinite resitor in series with it
[19:50:18] <petev> so changing the load, doesn't effect the current
[19:50:29] <petev> of course they aren't really implemented this way
[19:50:48] <petev> usually takes a transistor to act as a varying resistance
[19:50:58] <alex_joni> you can probably use 2 transistors to build a cc power source
[19:51:07] <petev> but I don't see any advantage to this for an estop
[19:51:07] <JymmmmEMC> petev: Yeah, that's what I don't get. In that url they talk about 1000 or 2000 ft loops. Well to me that twice the resistance so current would/should change
[19:51:26] <anonimasu> they feed a certain current over a loop
[19:51:35] <petev> sometimes current loop is used for long RS232 communications
[19:51:37] <alex_joni> JymmmmEMC: a constant current power source feeds constant current
[19:51:47] <alex_joni> no matter what you connect to it, you get the same current
[19:51:53] <petev> so the source voltage will vary with load
[19:52:00] <anonimasu> then they measure the voltage drop.. and measure how much voltage they need to apply to keep it constant..
[19:52:32] <petev> you can make a crude current source with a resistor, transistor and a couple diodes
[19:52:36] <anonimasu> yep
[19:52:46] <petev> but what would the advantage be for an estop?
[19:53:09] <anonimasu> current loop is used for sensor chains in noisy env's..
[19:53:09] <petev> its used for long rs232 loops to combat noise
[19:53:18] <petev> right
[19:53:44] <alex_joni> petev: I could imagine using a normal psu and measuring the current as a safety issue
[19:53:52] <alex_joni> if the current changes, then something might be wrong
[19:54:02] <JymmmmEMC> But how to you maintain "constant current" when the loop could vary is what I don't get.
[19:54:09] <JymmmmEMC> loop length
[19:54:13] <petev> so to detect partial shorts or something like that?
[19:54:19] <anonimasu> JymmmmEMC: the loop length is always constant..
[19:54:27] <jtr> two sets of contacts on a real mushroom e-stop switch. Just suggesting an alternative for JymmmmEMC that doesn't require electronics, which are possibly more likely to fail and prevent the E-stop from working. I think my suggestion is overkill too, just better than throwing chips at it..
[19:54:37] <anonimasu> that never changes after the implementation
[19:54:45] <JymmmmEMC> anonimasu: take telco as example, the loop will never be the same.
[19:54:54] <anonimasu> that's a bad example.
[19:55:04] <petev> JmmmmEMC, what is your email, I can send you and example of a crude CC source
[19:55:09] <JymmmmEMC> anonimasu: No, it's a very good example, because that's what I'm talking about.
[19:55:24] <anonimasu> that's not remotely like how a sensor chain looks..
[19:55:52] <JymmmmEMC> constant current anything has always confused me, I admit it's ignornace, but that's what I'm trying to overcome.
[19:56:18] <petev> JymmmEMC, this if a transitor that holds a constant voltage across an know resistor
[19:56:55] <anonimasu> ^_^
[19:57:23] <JymmmmEMC> like the ancient teleprinters used to use constant current loops
[19:57:25] <steves_logging> steves_logging is now known as steve_stallings
[19:59:05] <JymmmmEMC> petev: Like these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_source
[20:00:36] <petev> yes, and there are many more type, like widlar, etc.
[20:00:44] <petev> many used for bias circuits
[20:02:14] <petev> do you understand how the ones in your URL work?
[20:02:48] <JymmmmEMC> petev: I didn't read that fully yet, looking at this atm http://www.circuit-fantasia.com/circuit_stories/inventing_circuits/current_source/current_source_philosophy/current_source_philosophy.htm
[20:04:33] <petev> I have never seen anyone take the water comparison quite that far
[20:06:06] <JymmmmEMC> petev: LOL, I'll probably need it (seriosuly)
[20:14:57] <JymmmmEMC> Just curious, they didn't use transistors in the days of teletype for current loops, did they?
[20:15:26] <petev> that's a good question, but I thinkg teletypes were solid state
[20:15:40] <petev> transistors have been around for quite some time
[20:15:41] <JymmmmEMC> http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/1064
[20:15:54] <petev> I don't remember ever seeing a tube based teletype
[20:16:08] <JymmmmEMC> I thought they were electro mechanical
[20:16:32] <petev> the mechanical part was only for the print head
[20:16:38] <JymmmmEMC> ah
[20:16:59] <JymmmmEMC> never used one, only seen them collecting dust and cobwebs =)
[20:17:25] <petev> we had them in high school along with acoustic couple modems
[20:17:42] <JymmmmEMC> Now, those I've used @ 300BAUD
[20:19:42] <JymmmmEMC> NO CARRIER
[20:20:09] <JymmmmEMC> ATDT5551000
[20:20:34] <JymmmmEMC> CONNECT 2400...
[20:20:36] <petev> those were the days, 1200baud hayes modem and a televidoe terminal, and you thought you were in heaven ;-)
[20:20:49] <JymmmmEMC> TW2000 WooHoo!!!
[20:22:10] <anonimasu> lol
[20:22:28] <JymmmmEMC> I thought about tossing up a BBS (ala telnet)
[20:25:00] <JymmmmEMC> Hey, that might be cool, as Vista doesn't even have telnet by default anymore! LOL
[20:30:59] <Ziegler> telnet towel.blinkenlights.nlĀ 
[20:31:11] <Ziegler> great if you have never seen it
[20:31:24] <Ziegler> (sorry... bit of a geek here)
[20:32:40] <alex_joni> Ziegler: there's also an ipv6 version, that's in colour
[20:32:49] <Ziegler> WHAT!!?!
[20:32:55] <Ziegler> you know where?
[20:33:06] <alex_joni> same addy but using ipv6 I think
[20:33:19] <alex_joni> but.. it's been 5+ years, so my memory might be a bit rusty
[20:35:17] <alex_joni> I think my memory is not ok
[20:36:08] <Ziegler> just looked at the intro...
[20:36:26] <Ziegler> states... "ipv6" version ~= better
[20:37:24] <alex_joni> http://www.gearlive.com/news/article/ascii_star_wars_delivered_via_telnet_08161245/
[20:37:35] <alex_joni> " If you are using IP V6, you get color!"
[20:38:24] <Ziegler> guess I am not geeky enough to know ipv6... I just thought it was a new way to make for more ip addresses :-\
[20:38:37] <alex_joni> Ziegler: something like that
[20:40:14] <Ziegler> I thought I was on ipv6 with linux
[20:40:29] <Ziegler> shows ya what I know
[20:46:40] <anonimasu> lol
[20:48:55] <JymmmmEMC> Ziegler: you can get a IPc6 subnet of you're very own, then you can assign an IP for EVERY SINGLE DEVICE IN YOUR HOME, including the toaster and toilet!
[20:48:57] <anonimasu> Ziegler: that's what it is..
[20:57:21] <Ziegler> http://ipv6.whatismyipv6.net.ipv4.sixxs.org/
[21:00:50] <JymmmmEMC> but what is THEIR ipv6 ip?
[21:13:14] <Twingy> does anyone here work with Gerber (RS274X) files?
[21:13:22] <Twingy> I need some testers
[21:19:37] <anonimasu> hm
[21:20:05] <CIA-2> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/utils/comp.g: from jepler: require exactly one 'component' declaration at the top of the file. this makes the error message when 'component' is ommitted a lot easier to understand.
[21:22:02] <CIA-2> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/utils/comp.g: from jepler: when an error is encountered, remove the target file. this causes make to do the right thing the next time it's run
[21:24:30] <Twingy> some one here must do circuit boards besides me
[21:25:56] <jepler> Twingy: I do milled circuit boards, but I'm able to get emc gcode for trace isolation milling directly from the program (eagle with a custom "ulp" script)
[22:26:07] <anonimasu> night
[22:35:30] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[23:35:19] <tomp> aliens from the future have kidnapped all the emc dev's! proof is nobody in the festcam picture and it's timestamped 2007-06-10 23:31:52!
[23:37:21] <tomp> or ??new code uses time travel to resolve velocity issues??
[23:39:47] <JymmmmEMC> s/aliens/beer/