#emc | Logs for 2007-06-07

[02:11:42] <toastydeath> ffff
[02:17:23] <jmkasunich_> jmkasunich_ is now known as jmkasunich
[02:24:39] <Jymmm> Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
[02:24:48] <Jymmm> Damn, thought I'd feel better after that.
[02:25:13] <petev> what are your guys thoughts on how a jog button should work in incremental mode?
[02:25:26] <petev> should you have to hold the button pressed until the move finishes?
[02:25:35] <Jymmm> no
[02:25:40] <petev> or should the move finish even if you let it go?
[02:25:44] <Jymmm> but, not a bad idea.
[02:25:49] <Jymmm> safety wise
[02:25:51] <petev> you don't think it's a safety issue?
[02:25:57] <Jymmm> user option maybe?
[02:26:09] <Jymmm> if the inc is .01" not so much
[02:26:23] <petev> I was thining maybe the increment was too large, and you're thinking oh shit, I'm going to hit the fixture or something like that
[02:26:32] <The_Ball> hmm, loosing .01" of your finger is .01" too much
[02:27:05] <Jymmm> petev: will it repeat if I hold the button down?
[02:27:08] <petev> no
[02:27:29] <Jymmm> so if I want to move .03" I cna't hit the button three times huh?
[02:27:48] <petev> yes, you press it 3 times, but holding it down would not auto-repeat
[02:28:11] <Jymmm> No, I dind't mean press and hold, press and hold, press and hold.
[02:28:23] <Jymmm> I meant press press press HOLD on the final
[02:28:45] <jepler> petev: I believe all the current user interfaces allow you to release the button during the remainder of an incremental jog, no matter how much is left
[02:29:03] <petev> oh, I guess that could be done, but it would require some type of timer and could not stop the move immediately when you released the button
[02:29:32] <petev> jepler, it does, but I was thinking that might not be the safest thing
[02:29:45] <Jymmm> petev: Well, I like both options actually. If it was a LARGE move, then press and hold makes sense, if I'm trying to nudge into place a press and release works too.
[02:30:03] <petev> yeah, I hear what your saying
[02:30:29] <Jymmm> what about if it's a LARGE move the press and hald works, if it's a small move than tap tap tap works
[02:30:31] <jepler> I think it's up to each user interface to decide whether to offer one behavior, the other, or make it a preference
[02:31:04] <jepler> in practice I only use the very small increments (e.g., 0.01inch and smaller) so I would not have time to exercise my "oh shit" reflex anyway
[02:31:05] <petev> Jymmm, that could be done, or it could be a preference from the INI file
[02:31:10] <Jymmm> petev: I'm asuming here that the move is not at 4000 IPS either =)
[02:31:14] <jepler> a GUI that offers a 1 inch incremental jog is probably not giving any value to its user
[02:31:44] <petev> maybe 1" or large jogs are best left to MDI mode, but they do have value
[02:33:09] <Jymmm> petev: Well 1" tap tap tap would be three inches if ever needed. that's kinda how my cruise control works, one press for every inc/dec MPH
[02:36:08] <jepler> petev: will you tell me about a situation where you find long (e.g., 1") incremental jogs useful?
[02:36:58] <Jymmm> jepler: I've had that
[02:37:00] <petev> if you don't want to loose position with continuous mode when needing to move a certain relative distance
[02:37:14] <petev> but mdi mode is ok for this too, just a little more effort
[02:38:14] <Jymmm> jepler: when I've wanted to run a proggy real quick and run it on multiple moutned workpiece 2" over.
[02:38:36] <cradek> I'd be mad if I moved less than my incr distance and lost position, just because I didn't hold the key quite long enough
[02:39:06] <Jymmm> cradek: Hmmm, didn't think of that. I'd be too.
[02:39:07] <petev> cradek, I would be more mad though if I broke my carbide endmill on a clamp
[02:39:21] <cradek> I do sympathize with the "oh shit that increment was larger than I wanted" though
[02:39:26] <petev> I'm not sure what's best
[02:39:32] <cradek> same here
[02:39:34] <Jymmm> petev: user option?
[02:39:38] <cradek> well a jogwheel is best
[02:39:41] <petev> true
[02:39:46] <petev> a wheel is nice
[02:39:59] <Jymmm> NUMPAD FTW!!! LOL
[02:40:01] <cradek> right now, I think you can hit escape and stop an incr jog (if you have time)
[02:40:11] <cradek> but you won't have time...
[02:40:43] <Jymmm> oh that's right, emc doens't have to have jog "enabled"
[02:41:58] <Jymmm> under TCNC you had to be on the correct screen to jog.
[02:42:33] <Jymmm> then cradek's cat can't run across the kybd and crash the tool into the workpiece =)
[02:43:03] <cradek> that's why there's a door on this room
[02:43:17] <Jymmm> or cradek can't run across the kybd and crash the tool into the workpiece =)
[02:43:18] <petev> bbl
[02:48:48] <jepler> petev: yeah I see your position but I imagine myself using mdi
[02:49:05] <jepler> (I'd set incremental distance mode, mdi over the desired amount, and then forget to set absolute distance mode .. my "oh shit" would come at a later moment)
[02:49:27] <cradek> I've definitely incremental-jogged into the table/work before
[02:49:40] <cradek> now, I'm very careful to always check the increments
[02:50:01] <Jymmm> what if the screen changed colors depending on what mode
[02:50:13] <jepler> cradek: now that axis lets you choose the units available, have you?
[02:50:29] <cradek> I've never changed them
[02:50:40] <jepler> bah
[02:50:44] <jepler> you're no power user
[02:50:49] <Jymmm> lol
[02:50:56] <cradek> no, I never hooked them to the jogwheel either
[02:51:32] <jepler> btw I think I want to let external buttons set axis's idea of the "current axis" for jogging
[02:51:49] <cradek> why?
[02:52:08] <jepler> because a minute ago I wanted the "click in" on my jogwheel to let me swap between jogging X and Z
[02:52:27] <jepler> I haven't figured out all the details -- certainly the external button has to be something momentary..
[02:52:35] <cradek> interesting idea
[02:52:59] <Jymmm> X---Y---Z---Back to the beginning
[02:53:02] <cradek> maybe jogwheel + vcp to show the jogwheel's axis is better
[02:53:36] <Jymmm> That's how my radio does it to switch baack and fourth between bands.
[02:53:50] <jmkasunich> the existing jogwheel logic supports external button axis select
[02:54:11] <Jymmm> except it does a high or low beep too so you dont have to look at the dispaly and start transmitting on the wrong thing.
[02:54:11] <jmkasunich> just turn on the appropriate enable bit
[02:54:11] <jepler> jmkasunich: yes indeed
[02:54:27] <jmkasunich> but you are talking about changing axis's axis ;-)
[02:54:59] <jmkasunich> set incremental to 0.001, click click click X, the change to Y, click, click click some more?
[02:55:28] <Jymmm> CLICK_HOLD and TURN to change increments
[02:55:36] <jmkasunich> eww
[02:55:37] <jepler> I guess I'm not sure whether this would be useful or gimmicky
[02:55:44] <jmkasunich> increments should NOT change easily
[02:55:52] <cradek> don't think it can't be both
[02:55:54] <jepler> my brainstorm was certainly "I imagine this gimmick" not "this would actually be useful"
[02:55:53] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: that's why it's CLICK AND HOLD
[02:56:42] <jmkasunich> if you have a physical button next to your physical jogwheel, might as well just use that button to change the increment
[02:57:14] <cradek> I've found that I don't need to change the increments
[02:57:29] <cradek> maybe if I often cared about < .001, I would
[02:57:30] <jmkasunich> of you are talking about a USB funny thing that is sort-of a jogwheel, and has 8 buttons around it, ditto - use one of them to set 0.001, one to set 0.01, one to set X active, one for Y, etc
[02:57:38] <cradek> but even .001/click, I can jog it at a good clip pretty easily
[02:57:47] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Ew
[02:57:59] <jmkasunich> right - thats the whold point of a jogwheel - wheels have enormous dynamic range
[02:58:15] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: why Ew?
[02:58:44] <jmkasunich> its a machine, not a PC, doing everything with one button is a royal pain in the rear
[02:59:06] <jepler> night all
[02:59:11] <jmkasunich> night jeff
[02:59:16] <cradek> bye
[02:59:25] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: No no, not a mac mouse (so to speak) but the one button per axis thing.
[03:00:17] <Jymmm> Eh, it's what folks are used to is all.
[03:00:20] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:00:31] <tomp2> re 1" jog increment: today installed machine and had a guy laser it. He used 1" jogs and a renishaw laser to record leadscrew errs in X Y & Z. Then we mounted a 3R (tm) Refix plate and measured it's 100mm ctr to ctr holes using 100mm jogs. So large jogs are useful, tho rare.
[03:00:33] <jmkasunich> real machines have one button per axis with a light in the active one
[03:00:47] <Jymmm> Butm the ability to let a user define what they want would be pretty cool.
[03:01:41] <cradek> g0g91x1
[03:01:40] <cradek> x1
[03:01:42] <cradek> x1
[03:02:55] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: hey, did you have a url for the usb thingy you were talking about. or do you mean that fancy doohicky usually used for AV stuff?
[03:03:54] <jmkasunich> jepler is the one who mentioned using a usb thingy, dunno if he has the AV thing or something else
[03:04:32] <jmkasunich> I was referring to whatever he has, but thinking of the AV thing
[03:04:41] <Jymmm> Ah, no biggy. I'm still planning on using my numpad for a while still.
[03:04:55] <The_Ball> i'm using a wireless joypad
[03:33:05] <Ziegler> much closer to being done with my machine!
[03:33:25] <Ziegler> http://images.myonlinesite.com/cnc/index.php
[03:33:36] <Ziegler> see very bottom link
[03:34:08] <Ziegler> actually here: http://images.myonlinesite.com/cnc/construct/20070606/3axis.jpg
[03:34:11] <cradek> neat
[03:34:16] <cradek> what will the spindle be?
[03:34:45] <Ziegler> hehe... not completely sure yet
[03:34:54] <Ziegler> I have my eye on a few trim routers
[03:35:06] <Ziegler> but I also have a machine spindle at the shop I could try
[03:36:01] <Ziegler> any... off to sleep I go
[04:43:42] <ports_> hey
[05:44:51] <Jymmm> howdy
[10:53:49] <DusanC> DusanC is now known as dusanc
[11:17:23] <dusanc2> hello
[11:25:15] <DusanC_> Hi. DOes anybody know how could I setup adaptive control with EMC@?
[11:26:15] <DusanC_> Something like arc sensing, and using it to control arc height for plasma cutter.
[11:27:35] <cradek> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Torch_Height_Control
[11:27:47] <cradek> I think this information may be a little out of date
[11:28:08] <cradek> Dallur, who is often on irc, has made an advanced torch control setup
[11:28:26] <cradek> I think you can find it in the sample configurations: dallur-thc
[11:29:41] <DusanC_> Looking at it now.
[11:30:24] <DusanC_> It works like setting Z height and then controlling the height with ladder? Right?
[11:31:03] <cradek> sorry I haven't studied it to know the details
[11:31:39] <DusanC_> Ok.
[11:33:16] <cradek> I have to get ready for work, stay around and maybe you can talk to him later
[11:36:34] <DusanC__> I have a college assigment to design a 3axis plasma table and 5 axis welding robot, and I plan to use EMC2
[11:37:24] <DusanC__> Now do you think that I could make seam finding with trough the arc sensing easily with emc2?
[11:38:11] <DusanC__> i know how to do it with ladder, but the robot has to move and not to have any fixed axis
[11:40:20] <DusanC__> DusanC__ is now known as DusanC2
[11:41:32] <DusanC2> Sorry I have bad connection. I'll try later.
[12:13:10] <CIA-2> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/scripts/emc-environment.in: LD_LIBRARY_PATH is necessary on my amd64 machine, otherwise python's emcmodule doesn't find libemchal.so
[12:18:11] <CIA-2> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/scripts/runtests: at exit, print the name of any test that failed
[12:18:22] <Guest900> Guest900 is now known as skunkworks_
[14:01:09] <xemet> Hi
[14:01:16] <xemet> Alex are you there?
[14:25:26] <CIA-2> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/hal_lib.c: on 64-bit machines, give 8-byte alignment for stuff in hal shared memory when appropriate
[14:26:45] <CIA-2> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/libnml/buffer/tcpmem.cc: fix warnings on 64-bit systems
[14:26:45] <CIA-2> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/usrmot.c: fix warnings on 64-bit systems
[14:26:46] <CIA-2> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: fix warnings on 64-bit systems
[14:26:47] <CIA-2> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/classicladder/ (arrays.c classicladder_gtk.c symbols_gtk.c): fix warnings on 64-bit systems
[14:26:48] <CIA-2> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/drivers/ (hal_motenc.c hal_vti.c): fix warnings on 64-bit systems
[14:26:49] <CIA-2> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/user_comps/devices/hal_joystick.c: fix warnings on 64-bit systems
[14:26:51] <CIA-2> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/utils/ (halrmt.c scope_horiz.c scope_vert.c): fix warnings on 64-bit systems
[14:28:38] <CIA-2> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: oops, did not mean to commit this -- revert to rev 1.100
[14:51:15] <skunkworks_> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=306129#post306129
[15:10:01] <DusanC2> Hi. I have some questions about EMC2 and adaptive control. Can anyone help?
[15:10:20] <skunkworks_> ask away
[15:11:29] <DusanC2> A problem for my master work: 5 axis weld robot
[15:11:39] <DusanC2> 3 axis gantry + 2 rot
[15:11:59] <DusanC2> I need to make through the arc seam tracking
[15:12:49] <DusanC2> Measuring arc current ant based on that deciding how to change path
[15:13:11] <DusanC2> s/ant/and
[15:14:05] <DusanC2> i looked at ladder but I don't know how to make corrections while the robot travels down the programmed path
[15:14:46] <DusanC2> Ofcourse I choose EMC2. Any ideas?
[15:15:45] <SWPadnos> path corrections would be difficult, I think
[15:15:48] <DusanC2> offtopic=> I may suddenly go offline because of lousy connection
[15:15:53] <SWPadnos> you can certainly change speed easily
[15:17:33] <DusanC2> The idea is that robot should follow not so quality manufactured seam
[15:18:40] <SWPadnos> with HAL, you can add in an offset to the comanded position from the motion controller (in fact, I think the motion controller may have an offset input now)
[15:19:03] <jepler> SWPadnos: no, I don't think it does
[15:19:15] <SWPadnos> ok. I thought that was added. I guess it was just discussed
[15:19:31] <jepler> there is a component called "offset" which may be useful for applying an offset that emc doesn't see
[15:19:35] <SWPadnos> so if you have the hardware to measure arc current, and can write a HAL component to calculate the correct offsets, they can be added in HAL
[15:19:37] <SWPadnos> ok
[15:19:42] <DusanC2_> It should have some weave pattern he should follow and should modify the amplitude of the weave based on the avg. current.
[15:20:10] <DusanC2_> HW to measure should go through motenc's ADC
[15:21:27] <DusanC2_> Missed that offset talk because of reconnection
[15:21:33] <jepler> 10:19:29 <jepler> there is a component called "offset" which may be useful for applying an offset that emc doesn't see
[15:22:03] <DusanC2_> But can it work in 3D RT?
[15:22:54] <DusanC2_> i mean translating through space simultanously?
[15:23:06] <DusanC2_> or is it per axis?
[15:23:13] <SWPadnos> you use one per axis
[15:23:18] <jepler> one per joint
[15:23:24] <SWPadnos> right - per joint :)
[15:23:31] <DusanC2_> joint. Correct
[15:23:45] <jepler> unfortunately the outputs are all in joint space, so an operation like "move one inch in X" is tough to do
[15:24:01] <DusanC2_> It's ok.
[15:24:29] <DusanC2_> It would have to move in space. So some vector would have to be the input
[15:25:41] <DusanC2_> And could the weave pattern be added as some subfunction of G-code? Or it should be postprocessors work?
[15:41:14] <DusanC2__> could you point me to the reference of that joint "offset" in html documentation?
[15:41:33] <jepler> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.1/html/man/man9/offset.9.html
[15:41:34] <DusanC2__> Currently reading it but just can't find it
[15:42:27] <jepler> that component continually computes 'out' and 'fb_out': out = in + offset; fb_out = fb_in - offset
[15:43:04] <DusanC2__> ahh. I looked at the higher level :)
[15:43:17] <jepler> so you can place it between emc's motor position commands (e.g., axis.0.motor-pos-cmd) and the pid that controls your servo; and the feedback goes between the encoder that gets feedback from your servos, and axis.0.motor-pos-fb
[15:43:33] <DusanC2__> But that would change the speed, not position, correct?
[15:43:46] <jepler> "offset" comes from the component you must write, which computes the desired weave shape
[15:44:11] <DusanC2__> Ok. Got it now.
[15:44:52] <jepler> for instance, if you hook offset to siggen.0.sine, you would get a 1 motor unit sine wave applied to the position that emc finds from the gcode
[15:46:09] <DusanC2__> lost connection
[15:47:08] <DusanC2__> The problem is that it has to move like sine but in space and not per joint.
[15:47:46] <DusanC2__> So i would have to have some thread that would recalculate the correct "offset" values for every joint?
[15:48:02] <DusanC2__> Very fast thread :)
[15:48:04] <cradek> why can't this sine shape be in gcode? does it have to change dynamically?
[15:48:19] <jepler> 10:19:42 <DusanC2_> It should have some weave pattern he should follow and should modify the amplitude of the weave based on the avg. current.
[15:48:24] <DusanC2__> Well no\
[15:48:34] <cradek> oh ok
[15:48:43] <DusanC2__> Jepler is correct
[15:49:33] <DusanC2__> Well it should modify the average position and the amplitude :)
[15:49:45] <DusanC2__> s/average/middle
[16:29:09] <xemet> hi
[18:31:04] <robin_sz> meep?
[18:31:41] <toastydeath> fff
[18:31:54] <ds2> * ds2 pours birdseed
[19:22:18] <xemet> hi
[19:22:41] <xemet> is there anyone who has access (and can modify the content) to the linuxcnc.org website?
[20:17:44] <JymmmmEMC> wake up!
[20:37:31] <robin_sz> xemet, yes, yes there are
[20:42:06] <xemet> ok
[20:42:16] <xemet> robin, do you can?
[20:49:31] <ds2> * ds2 does an improper gear change on a bridgeport gear and and leaves it running ;)
[20:52:21] <toastydeath> hahaha.
[20:52:30] <toastydeath> i really would like a GOOD manual/cnc.
[20:52:41] <toastydeath> goodbye gear changes, hello "s1000 m3"
[20:59:40] <ds2> VFD
[20:59:59] <toastydeath> well i'd also like to do other neat CNC stuff with the one-off ease of a manual machine
[21:00:38] <toastydeath> i hear some of the cincinati hydrotel mills have a cnc tracer
[21:00:48] <toastydeath> which would probably be the ultimate in both cnc and in manual control
[21:03:34] <ds2> MDI mode =)
[21:06:02] <toastydeath> it's not quite the same
[21:06:14] <toastydeath> i'd like to have some feed buttons with macros on them
[21:06:30] <toastydeath> so i can reprogram the buttons to do things like feed at a certain rate to a predetermined stop
[21:06:34] <toastydeath> things like that
[21:08:35] <ds2> keyboard macro + MDI
[21:12:53] <skunkworks_> this
[21:12:56] <skunkworks_> http://sourceforge.net/projects/stellarium/
[21:13:04] <skunkworks_> controlls my telescope. pretty cool
[21:25:10] <toastydeath> ds2: i think if i hooked a couple extra buttons, like a mcdonalds-style cash register keyboard, plus some levers/knobs/dials
[21:25:19] <toastydeath> that i could improv a decent interface
[21:26:28] <toastydeath> also i did some investigation and found out why saws cost 30k
[21:26:30] <toastydeath> for an automatic
[21:30:45] <ds2> why?
[21:30:53] <ds2> gears made of solid gold? ;)
[21:31:09] <toastydeath> nah
[21:31:20] <toastydeath> the rigidity to handle 15 hp cuts
[21:31:28] <toastydeath> plus the bearings to saw all day long
[21:31:37] <toastydeath> then you get into features - controllable saw pressure and head approach
[21:31:44] <ds2> 15HP cuts?! Hmmm
[21:31:44] <toastydeath> automatic part gauging, rapid stops
[21:31:52] <toastydeath> three way vices
[21:31:55] <toastydeath> for bundle cutting
[21:32:02] <toastydeath> infeed and outfeed tables
[21:32:11] <toastydeath> the columns that support the sawhead
[21:33:42] <toastydeath> chip removal
[21:33:48] <toastydeath> coolant and cooling for the motor
[21:33:57] <toastydeath> plus all the different modes the saw can run in
[21:35:30] <toastydeath> like, these saws will run 2 tpi blades
[21:35:38] <toastydeath> and can run them on thin walled parts
[21:51:42] <ds2> sounds like I can use it to make thin slices of an entire car?
[21:51:54] <toastydeath> if you had a 20"x20" car
[21:52:01] <toastydeath> the saw at work is like 10"x10"
[21:52:06] <toastydeath> it's a nice saw
[21:52:16] <toastydeath> a pleasure to use
[21:52:34] <toastydeath> the high power just means you can really put the pressure on
[21:53:43] <toastydeath> it goes through large rounds pretty quickly, a couple seconds where the saw i use in college takes many minutes
[21:54:35] <toastydeath> but you can only vary the head approach on that saw, you don't have pressure control or high horsepower
[22:00:32] <ds2> ah... sounds like itwould be great for the tougher stuff like Stainless
[22:00:44] <toastydeath> yes, it does cut stainless
[22:01:11] <ds2> does cut and great are two different things... a cold chisel will cut stainless
[22:02:11] <toastydeath> well, when i say "it does cut it"
[22:02:25] <toastydeath> i'm coming at it from a production/manufacturing standpoint
[22:02:31] <toastydeath> so i do mean it does an amazing job
[22:02:57] <toastydeath> hmm that sounded more arrogant than i intended
[22:03:00] <toastydeath> i apologize
[22:03:36] <ds2> gotcha
[22:03:41] <toastydeath> but yeah
[22:03:47] <toastydeath> it goes through stainless/tool steel very nicely
[22:04:01] <toastydeath> not as fast as it will go through aluminum/copper
[22:04:15] <ds2> but definitely a product tool (vs a protoshop tool)?
[22:04:35] <toastydeath> it's a production tool
[22:04:45] <toastydeath> but it's just as easily used for single cuts
[22:05:05] <toastydeath> i would prefer using a production saw for single cuts versus a manual saw
[22:05:23] <toastydeath> because the production saw usually has great features, even for doing one or two parts
[22:05:46] <toastydeath> you can do a little skim cut off the face, then cut to +/- .005
[22:05:51] <toastydeath> sometimes less
[22:05:54] <ds2> but at 30K, it'd take a lot cuts per day to make the price per cut reasonably
[22:05:57] <toastydeath> yeah
[22:06:09] <toastydeath> it just takes some looking to find an inexpensive automatic saw
[22:06:24] <toastydeath> it may need minor work, but i have been able to find autos for around 4-5k
[22:06:54] <ds2> think there is also the problem of training people to use it
[22:07:04] <toastydeath> it's much simpler than a milling machine, but yes
[22:07:23] <ds2> seems that the saw at the school gets beaten to death cuz people donno how to use the hydraulic feed (they open it up 100%)
[22:07:35] <toastydeath> the saw is just a peice of crap at school
[22:07:37] <toastydeath> it's gravity fed
[22:07:44] <toastydeath> with a hydraulic damper
[22:08:01] <toastydeath> it's got no power, and is made of sheet metal instead of cast iron
[22:08:04] <ds2> ours can be slowed/adjusted with a hydraulic valve
[22:08:18] <toastydeath> yeah, that's what i'm calling gravity feed
[22:08:24] <ds2> oh
[22:08:39] <ds2> what do you call the import ones that just have return spring?
[22:08:40] <toastydeath> versus hydraulic saws which use hydraulic power to actualy feed the sawhead down
[22:08:45] <toastydeath> gravity feed
[22:08:51] <toastydeath> but it isn't adjustable.
[22:08:57] <ds2> hmmmm okay
[22:09:01] <toastydeath> adjustable vs. fixed gravity saw
[22:09:09] <toastydeath> there are some very nice gravity saws, though
[22:09:46] <toastydeath> my old school had a good gravity saw
[22:10:06] <toastydeath> easy to use, had a lot of weight in the head
[22:10:25] <ds2> was the speed adjustable and did people know how to adjust it?
[22:10:40] <toastydeath> yes
[22:11:00] <toastydeath> that was the only knob it had
[22:11:22] <toastydeath> was/is
[22:11:57] <toastydeath> the whole thing is thin sheet metal, no infeed/outfeed table
[22:11:59] <toastydeath> the vise is shitty
[22:11:59] <ds2> oh lucky... ours was a pulley/belt change. lots of students didn't bother
[22:12:10] <toastydeath> oh, speed of the BLADE
[22:12:13] <toastydeath> not sawhead
[22:12:14] <toastydeath> sorry
[22:12:17] <toastydeath> yeah, ours has a belt
[22:12:27] <toastydeath> it's set to a low speed so nobody burns the blade up
[22:13:16] <toastydeath> but since it doesn't have a seperate pressure adjustment
[22:13:22] <toastydeath> we can't use big blades
[22:13:39] <toastydeath> it's just an iffy unit in general.
[22:13:55] <toastydeath> i suppose i could add weights
[22:13:56] <ds2> but it beats hacksaws =)
[22:14:15] <toastydeath> aww hells yeah
[22:14:26] <toastydeath> unless it's an AUTOMATIC hacksaw!
[22:15:31] <ds2> automatic?
[22:15:39] <toastydeath> yeah, they make power hacksaws
[22:15:41] <toastydeath> or made
[22:16:59] <ds2> so it is a hacksaw with the handle attached to a motor?
[22:17:24] <toastydeath> yes
[22:19:24] <toastydeath> they're popular with the home shop crowd
[22:19:34] <toastydeath> inexpensive, and they've got production features
[22:20:27] <ds2> Hmmm
[22:20:34] <toastydeath> and the blades are cheaper
[22:20:44] <toastydeath> as i recall, which could be wrong
[22:20:59] <ds2> but you can get an import bandsaw for $50...
[22:21:39] <toastydeath> right, but those suck
[22:21:58] <toastydeath> i guess that's relative
[22:22:01] <toastydeath> i will rephrase
[22:22:01] <ds2> in what way? I got one of those and it beats hacksawing (no feed/table/vise but otherwise usesable)
[22:22:08] <toastydeath> i would never be happy with a 50 dollar bandsaw
[22:22:31] <toastydeath> i push machine tools hard and have expectations for features
[22:23:02] <mdynac> ever heard of Harbor Frieght? now there is one store FULL of junk tools.......
[22:23:11] <toastydeath> like, if i was gentler on tools
[22:23:19] <toastydeath> or was into a specific hobby
[22:23:30] <ds2> HF should be consider a store for kit tools... buythem, ripe them apart and rebuild
[22:23:40] <toastydeath> i'm sure i'd do great with import stuff
[22:24:29] <mdynac> they have a sawzall for 17 bucks....but we went thru three of them on one job....
[22:24:57] <toastydeath> it would be cool to build a hydraulic sawzall
[22:25:23] <mdynac> wouldn't it be kinda heavy?
[22:25:38] <toastydeath> probably not
[22:25:59] <toastydeath> controllable blade speed, high power
[22:26:00] <toastydeath> sign me up
[22:26:09] <toastydeath> or an air saw, that might be better
[22:26:10] <toastydeath> for wood
[22:29:24] <toastydeath> bzzzzzzzzzzzzz
[22:29:29] <toastydeath> harbor freight is fun to walk though
[22:29:36] <toastydeath> but work will pay for half the price of any tool
[22:29:38] <toastydeath> that is work related
[22:30:09] <toastydeath> i'm thinking about buying some dust/water sealed digital micrometers
[22:30:11] <toastydeath> from SPI
[22:30:24] <toastydeath> people have been giving the digital mics some good reviews
[22:30:38] <toastydeath> i think it's 600 bucks for a 0-4 set
[22:30:46] <ds2> digital as in electronic ?
[22:30:49] <toastydeath> yeah
[22:34:26] <toastydeath> they direct read to .0001
[22:34:28] <toastydeath> no more verniers
[22:34:32] <toastydeath> they
[22:34:37] <toastydeath> 're actually in .00005 increments
[22:34:56] <ds2> the mitutoyo ones are tempting
[22:35:16] <toastydeath> they're 800 bucks for a 0-4 set on msc though
[22:35:53] <ds2> I am just interested in the 0-1
[22:36:13] <toastydeath> oh
[22:36:16] <toastydeath> do it!
[22:36:22] <toastydeath> then tell me how you like it =)
[22:36:31] <ds2> never seem to use anything bigger then the 2-3" one and even that is rare
[22:36:52] <ds2> heh... there is Fowler one for like $30 cheaper.. so can't decide
[22:37:58] <toastydeath> my co-workers don't like fowler
[22:38:07] <toastydeath> haven't used them enough to form an opinion though
[22:38:09] <ds2> in accurate or ?
[22:38:13] <toastydeath> just feel
[22:38:20] <ds2> hmmm
[22:38:21] <toastydeath> the word on the street
[22:38:30] <toastydeath> is that they're accurate if you can get them to work right
[22:38:38] <ds2> I'd expect them to be a big step up from the no-name venier import mics
[22:38:42] <toastydeath> but the feel is off and makes getting a good measurement time consuming
[22:38:56] <toastydeath> the digitial stuff is harder to get right
[22:39:16] <toastydeath> like, they are a step up in the mechanical equipment
[22:39:40] <ds2> *nod* but one really needs at least one good measuring tool
[22:39:59] <toastydeath> yeah, but i would go for mitutoyo or SPI or something
[22:40:01] <toastydeath> for that tool
[22:40:18] <toastydeath> in digital
[22:40:28] <ds2> you make money with that tool... for hobby types, that's a harder choice
[22:40:37] <toastydeath> yeah =(
[22:40:55] <toastydeath> if i were hobby, i would go mechanical
[22:41:39] <toastydeath> just because i can get a better tool per dollar
[22:41:42] <ds2> but aren't they less accurate? mechanical is graduated in 0.0001 which means it is really good to 0.0002 (+/- smallest division)
[22:41:53] <toastydeath> nah, mechanical mics are just as accurate
[22:41:57] <toastydeath> you can read .00005 on them
[22:42:04] <toastydeath> on a good mic
[22:42:21] <toastydeath> the lines are set up so that for .00005, instead of having one of the vernier gradiuations line up
[22:42:27] <toastydeath> two lines fall in between to of the other markings
[22:42:32] <toastydeath> *two
[22:42:41] <ds2> hmm
[22:42:50] <toastydeath> but again, that is only on a good tool
[22:43:02] <ds2> good and import don't mix :(
[22:43:12] <toastydeath> well, you can get luckly
[22:43:12] <toastydeath> *lucky
[22:43:27] <ds2> the other thing is the fowler includes an rs232 interface
[22:43:32] <toastydeath> i wish i had the links, but some specific importers get tools on par with mitutoyo/etc
[22:43:51] <toastydeath> most digital mics have an SPC interface
[22:43:59] <toastydeath> of some kind
[22:44:09] <toastydeath> but you could always TRY the fowler
[22:44:15] <toastydeath> and see how you like it
[22:45:12] <toastydeath> maybe get the return policy?
[22:45:20] <ds2> no returns, AFAIK
[22:45:27] <toastydeath> jeebas!
[22:45:54] <toastydeath> from where?
[22:46:06] <ds2> www.victornet.net I think
[22:46:26] <ds2> they are legit, I've gotten weird tools from them at reasonable prices (like a 10-40 tap)
[22:46:31] <toastydeath> look on mscdirect.com
[22:46:44] <toastydeath> http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPAGE?PMPAGE=/custsupp/returns.html
[22:46:47] <toastydeath> there's the return policy for them
[22:47:00] <ds2> I've seen MSC but they cost more for a return policy
[22:47:12] <toastydeath> perhaps!
[22:47:48] <toastydeath> i dunno, you kind of need a return policy for measurement stuff
[22:47:55] <toastydeath> sometimes you get a dud tool
[22:48:12] <ds2> they will swap out DOA's but no buy it, try it, and return it thing
[22:48:20] <toastydeath> ah
[22:48:23] <toastydeath> no store credit?
[22:48:33] <ds2> don't think so
[22:48:39] <toastydeath> i couldn't do it =(
[22:48:53] <toastydeath> you're going to have the mic for a real long time
[22:48:52] <ds2> besides, mail order... you can get eatten alive with shipping charges
[22:49:04] <toastydeath> i dunno.
[22:49:42] <ds2> i prefer to be able to see it in person before buying instead of a return option
[22:50:06] <toastydeath> ah
[22:55:41] <toastydeath> we don't have any place that sells good gear around here
[22:55:56] <ds2> they all seem to be mail order
[22:56:33] <toastydeath> yar