#emc | Logs for 2007-05-25

[00:23:02] <CIA-8> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/rs274ngc/ (rs274ngc.hh interp_convert.cc interp_arc.cc): improve this very useful error some more
[00:40:18] <jmkasunich_> jmkasunich_ is now known as jmkasunich
[02:06:37] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/gcode/main.lyx: improve g43 discussion and add to differences section
[02:46:26] <gene> Hi guys
[02:48:18] <gene> from machinery's handbook, page 66, I'm trying to solve for h
[02:49:03] <gene> I know c and r, but my hacking is getting a number that puts the bit about an inch under the table. Not good
[02:50:02] <cradek> even if I knew where my book is, I bet it's not the same version as yours - can you describe the problem?
[02:50:10] <gene> whats the usual substitution for the '1/2SQRT' portion of that formula
[02:50:21] <gene> Mine is #27
[02:50:55] <gene> circular seqment calcs section
[02:51:30] <cradek> #25 here
[02:51:41] <cradek> actually found it
[02:52:07] <gene> ok, here is line of code I've screwed up
[02:52:09] <cradek> but no circles on page 66
[02:52:12] <gene> #14 = [ #1 - sqrt[[4 * [#1*#1] - [#11 + #11] * [#11 + #11]]]]
[02:52:33] <cradek> yarrrgh
[02:52:58] <gene> where #1 is 1.415 & the c should evalutae to 1.300 in this scene
[02:53:59] <cradek> I'll try to help, but you have to tell me what the questions is :-)
[02:54:41] <gene> #11 is a copy of half the c, and is decremented by about point triple ought zip at each x increment.
[02:54:44] <cradek> what is the picture label in the book? maybe I have it, but on a different page
[02:55:13] <gene> I can rearrange the code to do... "circular segment:"
[02:58:18] <bytecolor> pg63 in the 26th
[02:58:52] <gene> ahh, then I need to find h, knowing c and r
[02:59:11] <toastydeath> i love this channel
[02:59:26] <gene> boring ain't it..
[02:59:43] <toastydeath> i don't think so
[03:00:06] <cradek> oh I finally see 'circular segment' picture
[03:00:25] <gene> good
[03:01:32] <cradek> ok the h vs. c and r doesn't look much like what you pasted
[03:01:42] <cradek> #1 is r, #11 is c?
[03:01:59] <gene> I can refactor the code to get rid of about half of that if it would help, #11 =.5*c
[03:02:14] <gene> and #1 is r
[03:02:31] <cradek> where's the 1/2?
[03:02:48] <bytecolor> just find the lenght of the side adjcent to alpha (the verticla leg of the triangle)
[03:03:30] <gene> isn't that the sqrt in my method?
[03:03:35] <bytecolor> yes
[03:03:53] <cradek> isn't what?
[03:04:20] <gene> the 1/2, is that not a universal sub for a sqrt function?
[03:04:38] <gene> anmd vice-versa
[03:04:39] <cradek> no, this formula means take the sqrt, then divide by two
[03:04:48] <cradek> subtract that from r
[03:05:13] <gene> so this then: #14 = [ #1 - sqrt[[4 * [#1*#1] - [#11 + #11] * [#11 + #11]]]] turns into?
[03:05:22] <cradek> r - [sqrt[4*r*r - c*c]/2]
[03:06:24] <gene> this then? :#14 = [ #1 - [sqrt[[4 * [#1*#1] - [#11 + #11] * [#11 + #11]]]]/2]
[03:06:36] <toastydeath> i'm kind of jealous of you emc guys
[03:06:46] <toastydeath> i haven't been able to program a machine with parametric support yet
[03:07:03] <cradek> yes gene I think that's it
[03:07:23] <cradek> you have an extra [] at the sqrt[[ ... ]] but that doesn't really matter
[03:07:24] <gene> not me, I'm just a retired old fart television engineer, 72 years young
[03:07:37] <toastydeath> hah, excellent
[03:07:56] <gene> ahh, ok. Thanks, brb with results
[03:09:01] <gene> Bingo! Thanks Chris.
[03:09:08] <cradek> welcome
[04:07:16] <gene> Chris, it looks as if the double upcut is going to work just fine, no line at the crown that I can see so far, and its recut about .32" of the 4.3 it has to go so far.
[04:24:13] <gene> looking ahead to the finished piece, I'd like to give it a dead flat black anodic finish, is this chemistry known here?
[04:26:57] <toastydeath> are you asking about anodized finishes
[04:27:02] <toastydeath> or is there really an anodic finish
[04:29:45] <gene> anodized or similar
[04:30:17] <toastydeath> uh, well you're confusing me
[04:30:24] <toastydeath> because anodizing and "similar" are very different
[04:30:34] <toastydeath> so if you want to anodize something, i need a "yes"
[04:30:58] <gene> yes
[04:31:20] <gene> Need a hard surface, and flat black
[04:31:27] <toastydeath> anodizing is building up aluminum oxide layer
[04:31:32] <toastydeath> you use a battery charger
[04:31:34] <toastydeath> a lead plate
[04:31:39] <toastydeath> and some sulphuric acid
[04:31:49] <gene> Lead? ok, can do
[04:31:49] <toastydeath> it's been awhile since i looked at the process
[04:32:09] <toastydeath> you attach a wire to the plate and the aluminum
[04:32:21] <toastydeath> and great, i forgot which is positive and which is negative
[04:32:25] <toastydeath> so i guess this is irrelivent
[04:32:30] <toastydeath> but you switch it on
[04:32:45] <toastydeath> and leave it for a predetermined amount of time, based on the surface area
[04:33:04] <toastydeath> then, you take it out and wash it in COLD water
[04:33:08] <gene> I would think the anode of he word would men the alu is the plus electrode
[04:33:16] <gene> men/mean
[04:33:22] <toastydeath> probably
[04:33:33] <toastydeath> after washing in very cold water
[04:33:37] <toastydeath> you dip it in your dye
[04:33:42] <toastydeath> cold dye
[04:33:45] <toastydeath> and leave it for a bit.
[04:33:56] <toastydeath> take it out, then seal it in near boiling water/steam.
[04:34:12] <toastydeath> there are hobbyist websites for it, as i recall.
[04:34:46] <gene> I can do that I think, didn't try a google search, will when I'm ready, thanks
[04:35:11] <toastydeath> no problem, it's not too difficult
[04:35:36] <gene> But damn, now that its smooth, I see another problem, the ball nose bit I'm using...
[04:36:11] <toastydeath> ?
[04:36:36] <toastydeath> i believe if you swap the anode and cathode, you electopolish the aluminum
[04:36:43] <toastydeath> isntead of anodizing it
[04:36:49] <gene> I'm going to have to use an end mill, and fudge its diameter into the motions to get a clean edge ledge
[04:36:57] <toastydeath> ...?
[04:37:08] <toastydeath> for deburring?
[04:37:44] <gene> I'm getting a fillet at the outside edge, where I should have a flat joint to the curve I'm cutting.
[04:38:03] <toastydeath> why are you using a ball endmill
[04:38:21] <toastydeath> 3d contouring?
[04:38:26] <gene> yes.
[04:39:58] <gene> its a magazine floor plate for old meat in the pot, I built it about 45 years ago. Make work project basicly to see if I can do it, and with the help here, yes.
[04:41:04] <gene> But, its gatting sleepy out, so I should pause this operation & get some.
[04:41:14] <gene> gatting/getting
[04:41:42] <toastydeath> lol
[04:41:44] <toastydeath> goodnight sir
[04:42:12] <gene> goodnight to you too, & anybody else still moving at this hour.
[04:51:22] <The_B> this hour?? it's only 1500 here
[04:52:27] <toastydeath> or is it.
[05:54:34] <toastydeath> i think my first lathe
[05:54:39] <toastydeath> will be an American Pacemaker
[05:55:24] <toastydeath> maybe a Lodge and Shipley
[05:57:53] <toastydeath> the later pacemakers seem to be generally capable of 2000 rpm
[05:58:06] <toastydeath> and yet still have a pretty darn large swing
[06:39:54] <ds2> wonder what motion product coming is liquidating/going out of business
[06:54:55] <alex_joni> 07:42 < The_B> this hour?? it's only 1500 here
[09:42:25] <dtpm> hi
[09:42:48] <alex_joni> hi
[09:43:12] <dtpm> hi alex I'm xemet
[09:44:31] <hcseb> Hi Folks, is the comp utility installed on emc 2.1.5 by default? It doesn't appear to be present on this Ubuntu based installation of emc 2.1.5.
[09:44:52] <dtpm> you should install emc2-dev
[09:46:44] <hcseb> Ok. Can I use the comp from emc2-dev to generate hal components to use in emc 2.1.5?
[09:47:17] <dtpm> I think yes...I've done it
[09:47:42] <hcseb> Great. I'm install and compile that in place.
[09:48:36] <dtpm> you can install emc2-dev using apt-get install emc2-dev
[09:49:13] <hcseb> Oh, I get it - it's part of the 2.1.5 relase, but a package of developer tools?
[09:51:08] <alex_joni> hcseb: right
[09:51:19] <alex_joni> dtpm: any luck with the splash?
[09:52:18] <dtpm> yes...now it seems to work
[09:54:33] <alex_joni> great
[09:55:31] <hcseb> There are lots of useful looking modules in /usr/realtime-2.6.15-magma/modules/emc2/ is there a list of what each one is?
[09:58:19] <hcseb> I think some but not all are documented in the fairly new HAL_Documentation.pdf?
[10:27:03] <alex_joni> hcseb: man pages exist for some of them
[10:27:15] <alex_joni> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/
[10:31:13] <hcseb> alex_joni: Thanks
[11:19:33] <alex_joni> bbl
[12:32:38] <skunkworks> cradek: do you have any info on your current l298 setup?
[12:33:39] <jepler> I caught a glance at the .brd file one night when I was over at his place, but I don't think it's online anywhere
[12:34:12] <jepler> it needs a "rev 2" before it's suitable for sharing -- his pin header to connect the pluto to this board has all the pins swapped, compared to a straight-through ribbon cable
[12:35:24] <skunkworks> Ah - I remember that. Someone is making a router and would like to use the pluto with l298s.
[12:35:41] <skunkworks> 'small router'
[12:36:52] <jepler> I see
[12:42:34] <kwajstabo> hello
[12:43:10] <jepler> hello kwajstabo
[12:43:13] <kwajstabo> can someone please tell me, what options do i have to change the spindle revolutions
[12:43:38] <kwajstabo> i know how to turn it on and off, but i cant change its frequency
[12:44:16] <jepler> the HAL pin motion.spindle-speed-out shows the speed requested for the spindle. This is documented in http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.1/html/config/emc2hal/index.html
[12:45:30] <kwajstabo> what kind of signal is this, pwm?
[12:45:50] <jepler> the nist-lathe converts this number to a PWM duty cycle and places the PWM signal on a parport pin, which is connected to a particular spindle controller which converts this into spindle speed.
[12:46:03] <SWPadnos> kwajstabo, do you have hardware that can electronically change your spindle speed?
[12:46:28] <kwajstabo> i have hardware with microcontroler (mome made) so i can adopt it
[12:46:48] <SWPadnos> ok. what kind of signal does that need for the speed command?
[12:46:50] <kwajstabo> home made
[12:47:18] <jepler> the nist-lathe HAL file is here, scroll down to "Spindle Speed": http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/configs/nist-lathe/nist-lathe.hal?rev=1.16;content-type=text%2Fplain
[12:47:20] <kwajstabo> don't care...what options do i have - pwm output would be the best
[12:47:36] <SWPadnos> you can get PWM output using pwmgen, as jepler mentioned
[12:47:41] <SWPadnos> this is in the NIST-lathe config
[12:48:00] <kwajstabo> ok...i will read more about it...thank you!
[12:48:56] <SWPadnos> any time
[12:49:01] <SWPadnos> (more or less)
[12:53:56] <skunkworks> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=301238#post301238
[12:54:02] <skunkworks> last two posts.
[12:54:13] <skunkworks> I am glad there are other goofy people out there.
[15:16:49] <JymmmEMC> Wake up damnit (except for jmkasunich as he never wakes up before noon)
[15:25:15] <skunkworks> * skunkworks is awake. been awake for 4.5 hours
[15:32:30] <The_Ball> first step off my conversion done: http://wigen.net/servo.avi
[15:32:40] <The_Ball> ignore my norwegian commentary
[15:38:01] <skunkworks> The_Ball: very neet
[15:38:30] <The_Ball> thanks :) to bad the geckos didn't arrive today
[15:39:58] <skunkworks> Do you have x and y setup also?
[15:40:18] <The_Ball> no, i'm waiting for two ac servos to arrive as well
[15:41:04] <skunkworks> what are you going to use to drive them?
[15:41:05] <The_Ball> the machine has the standard chinese acme screws so i will have some backlash
[15:41:08] <JymmmEMC> The_Ball: what encoders did you get?
[15:41:50] <The_Ball> I got these: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=180119980489&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=008
[15:43:03] <JymmmEMC> $600 wow!
[15:43:06] <The_Ball> so i guess it's resolvers not encoders. the quill has a 400ppr encoder
[15:43:39] <skunkworks> those are quite the drive units. analog/digital/step/dir
[15:44:46] <The_Ball> The quill drive is temporary though, I will build a ballscrew device to pull/push the quill, but this quill drive will mill the parts for the new quill drive ;)
[15:44:53] <The_Ball> (with emc of course)
[15:45:43] <The_Ball> skunkworks, the are programmable, one of the links is to a 600+ page programming guide!
[15:47:04] <skunkworks> Nice.
[15:48:00] <The_Ball> what "turned my on" about the drives was that I won't need a power supply for them, just plug them into the wall
[15:48:19] <JymmmEMC> The_Ball: =)
[15:48:33] <skunkworks> Yep. We have some older compumotor stepper drives like that. It is nice.
[15:48:40] <JymmmEMC> Is there isolation in them?
[15:48:57] <JymmmEMC> "just in case"
[15:49:01] <skunkworks> They are switching supplies. About all I know.
[15:49:18] <JymmmEMC> =)
[15:49:53] <JymmmEMC> NEMA23 ? The_Ball ?
[15:50:31] <The_Ball> not sure, i'll make some custom mounts anyway
[15:50:49] <The_Ball> oh, anybody know where I can get some shaft couplers?
[15:51:13] <JymmmEMC> diam?
[15:51:37] <SWPadnos> eBay?
[15:52:15] <The_Ball> well he is claiming the motor shaft is 11mm but somewhere else he claims 1/2"
[15:52:24] <SWPadnos> close enough
[15:52:26] <cradek> got a lathe?
[15:52:26] <JymmmEMC> The_Ball: SWPadnos' junk box probably has a few
[15:52:38] <The_Ball> JymmmEMC, oh, he sais it's nema34
[15:52:54] <The_Ball> I have a lathe, but shouldn't the couplers be flexible?
[15:53:30] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, I have n ojunk!
[15:53:34] <SWPadnos> no junk!
[15:53:38] <JymmmEMC> Ha!
[15:53:58] <SWPadnos> only the finest unassigned materials and parts
[15:55:22] <JymmmEMC> fumap == junk
[15:55:38] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: fump == junk
[15:56:57] <SWPadnos> but it's not fubar fump
[15:58:46] <The_Ball> any of you guys us the pluto fpga parallel port module?
[16:01:10] <cradek> I do
[16:01:38] <The_Ball> happy with it, any experiences you would like to share?
[16:02:09] <cradek> it works great
[16:02:11] <The_Ball> looks like a amazing little device
[16:02:42] <cradek> it is a bit picky about noisy encoder signals, but I suspect any fast device (fpga) is
[16:03:06] <The_Ball> what hardware do you interface with it? amplifiers/servos?
[16:03:08] <cradek> jepler's firmware has all the features I have needed
[16:03:11] <cradek> yes
[16:03:23] <cradek> and spindle speed from an extra pwm
[16:03:55] <The_Ball> ah yes, I have added a magnet to the spindle, but I will have to get a speed controller
[16:04:29] <skunkworks> To do threading - you will need an encoder with index pulse
[16:04:48] <The_Ball> on the spindle?
[16:04:48] <cradek> working on a lathe?
[16:05:07] <The_Ball> im doing my mill first, then the lathe
[16:05:18] <cradek> yes you need an encoder on the spindle
[16:05:42] <cradek> emc has to make the axis follow the spindle position when threading
[16:05:52] <The_Ball> cradek, any requirements as to the resolution?
[16:06:48] <cradek> will you be counting it with software (like parport) or hardware (like pluto)?
[16:07:07] <The_Ball> I'll definitely get some plutos
[16:07:11] <cradek> if software counting, you have to pick resolution carefully
[16:07:48] <cradek> ok, then it doesn't matter much, a few hundreds of lines or more
[16:08:04] <cradek> I think one guy has 100 lines (software counted)
[16:08:09] <cradek> mine has 1024 lines
[16:08:19] <cradek> I wouldn't go under 100
[16:08:29] <The_Ball> and does threading work well for you?
[16:08:35] <cradek> yes
[16:08:50] <The_Ball> i will be smiling for a week when i get that going
[16:08:58] <cradek> it's pretty neat
[16:09:11] <cradek> it's such a luxury if you've spent time changing gears before
[16:09:40] <cradek> or heck, spent time manually threading, what a pain
[16:09:42] <The_Ball> my father never taught me, i thing he has forgotten
[16:10:22] <The_Ball> he will be so jealous... but it might be the kick up the backside he needs to get his cnc project going
[16:11:47] <The_Ball> cradek, what's the smalles (diameter) things you are able to thread?
[16:12:28] <cradek> you mean the practical limit? would depend on the material, it has to not deflect much
[16:12:50] <The_Ball> I ment you personaly
[16:12:53] <cradek> with g76 you could actually use the tailstock while threading (it has an optional angled entry move)
[16:12:56] <The_Ball> with your setup
[16:13:30] <cradek> I've made 4-40 threads, haven't tried smaller but I intend to
[16:14:32] <The_Ball> hum, not sure what 4-40 threads are
[16:14:49] <cradek> heh, you must not be USAian, we use funny numbers
[16:15:16] <jepler> http://www.engineersedge.com/screw_threads_chart.htm
[16:15:17] <cradek> #4 is maybe .1 inch diameter, 40 threads per inch
[16:15:21] <The_Ball> hehe, no, norwegian, so i never learned about inches
[16:15:23] <cradek> would have to look up the numbers to be sure
[16:15:59] <jepler> major diameter .1112 inches
[16:16:05] <cradek> .11inch dia = 2.8mm
[16:16:24] <cradek> 40/inch = .635mm pitch
[16:16:35] <The_Ball> ah, that's a pretty handy size
[16:16:45] <cradek> yeah I use it a lot
[16:17:02] <The_Ball> do you do any radio controlled stuff?
[16:17:08] <cradek> #6 is the smallest dirt-common size here, .138 inch, a little too big for some stuff I do
[16:17:18] <cradek> nope
[16:17:42] <The_Ball> ok, just sounded like a handy rc size
[16:17:54] <cradek> yeah I suppose so
[16:18:10] <cradek> they also use 2-56 a lot I think - it's a lot smaller
[16:18:58] <The_Ball> have you got a rotary table as a forth axis?
[16:19:10] <cradek> yes, on the little mill I do
[16:19:34] <The_Ball> ok, I have to get one for the mill
[16:21:30] <The_Ball> I want to make small pneumatic/heaudralic valves, which should be a breeze with a forth axis and a lathe for the pistons
[16:21:46] <jepler> just one note: since pluto is limited to 4 PWMs, you can't do 4 axis PWM servo + PWM spindle control
[16:22:14] <The_Ball> thanks for the hint
[16:22:35] <cradek> you could easily generate good enough pwm on a separate parport
[16:23:13] <cradek> or use a stepper A axis on a separate port
[16:23:19] <cradek> all sorts of options
[16:23:19] <The_Ball> jepler, what about using a two general io's for step/dir on the quill, or step/dir for the rotary table?
[16:23:41] <cradek> the pluto's general IOs can only update at the servo rate (1-2 kHz)
[16:23:49] <The_Ball> the pluto had lots of extra io's if i remember correctly
[16:23:59] <jepler> yes but as cradek says they are slow
[16:24:03] <cradek> you would want a faster base thread to update step/dir outputs; this would require a separate output device
[16:24:07] <The_Ball> I see
[16:25:46] <The_Ball> if there is abundant io's available using a extra step multiplier would be possible, but it's probably simpler to use a seperate output device
[16:37:48] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/rs274ngc/ (9 files):
[16:37:48] <CIA-8> implement G41.1, G42.1 (tool radius compensation with dynamic radius and orentation)
[16:37:48] <CIA-8> change G43 H-1 to G43.1 (tool length compensation with dynamic lengths)
[16:37:48] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/html/gcode.html:
[16:37:48] <CIA-8> implement G41.1, G42.1 (tool radius compensation with dynamic radius and orentation)
[16:37:48] <CIA-8> change G43 H-1 to G43.1 (tool length compensation with dynamic lengths)
[16:37:50] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/gcode/main.lyx:
[16:37:52] <CIA-8> implement G41.1, G42.1 (tool radius compensation with dynamic radius and orentation)
[16:37:54] <CIA-8> change G43 H-1 to G43.1 (tool length compensation with dynamic lengths)
[16:38:03] <cradek> yay
[16:38:36] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/debian/changelog: note new item
[16:38:38] <cradek> The_Ball: PCI parallel ports are only a few dollars, people have a lot of luck using them
[16:39:03] <cradek> simplest/cheapest way to get some reasonably fast DIO
[16:39:28] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/nc_files/tool-length-probe.ngc: G43 H-1 was changed to G43.1
[16:39:30] <The_Ball> that's the route i'll travel then, a pluto and a extra lpt port
[17:37:23] <skunkworks> the_ball: the pluto does not do step and direction. You had mentioned getting a gecko driver for your mill.
[17:38:29] <The_Ball> yes, so if i understand correctly the gio's on the pluto are to slow for step/dir and a second parallel port can control the quill (with the gecko)
[17:38:56] <The_Ball> but to start me off the three axis will all be step/dir no pluto
[17:40:37] <skunkworks> ok :)
[17:41:05] <skunkworks> Then the question is - what are you going to make with your mill?
[17:41:58] <The_Ball> mostly aluminium stuff, some part for model airplanes, engraving things, milling pcb's
[17:42:21] <The_Ball> so allround stuff
[17:42:30] <skunkworks> sounds like a plan :)
[17:43:24] <The_Ball> i have most of the needed gear now. ballscrews will be the next big thing i guess
[17:45:17] <The_Ball> but my body has once again won the war about if i need to sleep or not so im off to bed
[17:45:51] <skunkworks> Night
[18:18:13] <gene> Hi guys, troubles back!
[18:19:24] <gene> Silly Q: Other than making extensive mods to my program, how can I use cutter diameter comp wgen in G19 mode for a g2/3 mopve?
[18:19:37] <gene> wgen/when
[18:19:45] <gene> mopve/movw
[18:20:11] <gene> move
[18:20:31] <cradek> you can't
[18:20:33] <SWPadnos> I think it's an error to use cutter comp when the XY plane isn't selected
[18:20:45] <gene> can't type sitting on a stool with keyboard about 3" below my nose!
[18:21:54] <gene> I'd like to switch from a 1/4" ball nose, to a 1/8" end mill to clean up the outside edge of this crown.
[18:23:14] <gene> If not, I'll have to expand the y pass so it cuts all I want cleanly curved.
[18:24:41] <gene> Hummm, is there a gcode I can use to program an offset, then tell it to goto it?
[18:45:49] <gene> from the manual, it appears i can do this as many times in a given iteration of a loop as i need to, anything else i need to be aware of?
[19:11:44] <skunkworks> I think I have the circuit board pads as big as I can - as is
[19:11:52] <skunkworks> oops
[19:35:40] <anonimasu> hi
[19:40:52] <skunkworks> iiiiiiiiIIIIT'S friday
[19:41:03] <cradek> yay
[19:42:02] <skunkworks> cradek: is your next project the bridgeport/clone conversion :)
[19:42:47] <skunkworks> that you have not gotten yet..
[19:57:02] <cradek> skunkworks: probably
[19:57:26] <skunkworks> It is a disease ;)
[19:58:03] <skunkworks> Hi my name is cradek. It has bee 6 months since I have bought a garge metal cutting machine.
[19:58:14] <skunkworks> *large
[20:01:12] <cradek> well you know how it is
[20:16:14] <robin_sz> meep?
[20:16:18] <robin_sz> * robin_sz bounces
[20:16:36] <alex_joni> hi
[20:20:24] <robin_sz> dood!
[20:20:27] <robin_sz> are we well?
[20:20:31] <alex_joni> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFacWGBJ_cs
[20:20:46] <alex_joni> robin_sz: very well.. got married
[20:21:12] <robin_sz> coo!
[20:21:17] <robin_sz> well done :)
[20:21:30] <robin_sz> to a girl?
[20:21:32] <alex_joni> ty
[20:21:37] <alex_joni> robin_sz: indeed
[20:21:40] <robin_sz> bonus!
[20:22:28] <robin_sz> you kept that one quiet, or maybe I wasnt looking
[20:23:01] <alex_joni> not really quiet
[20:23:54] <robin_sz> so, when are yo ugoing to teach her how to weld?
[20:24:09] <alex_joni> weeell.. she already knows the theory
[20:24:12] <robin_sz> heh
[20:25:28] <robin_sz> bought another tig set this week
[20:25:55] <robin_sz> migatronic ac/dc thing, 220 amp
[20:31:01] <robin_sz> for that aluminium welding game
[20:31:23] <robin_sz> not been conviced by aluminium synergic mig
[20:31:47] <alex_joni> well you can't compare them ;)
[20:31:57] <alex_joni> although mig is way faster :P
[21:17:32] <robin_sz> yeah, but not as neat
[21:18:29] <robin_sz> the three important points for aluminium welding are ...
[21:18:34] <robin_sz> 1) cleanliness
[21:18:40] <robin_sz> 2) cleanliness
[21:18:44] <robin_sz> and 3 ..
[21:18:53] <robin_sz> cleanliness
[21:19:05] <robin_sz> apart from that, you need to make sure the letal is really clean too
[21:19:20] <robin_sz> s/letal/metal/
[21:22:03] <ds2> doesn't it help to do this in a vaccum?
[21:22:39] <robin_sz> no
[21:22:56] <robin_sz> an argon atmosphere
[21:23:04] <robin_sz> or argon/helium mix
[21:23:12] <ds2> why is a vaccum worse then a sheild gas?
[21:23:44] <robin_sz> err, you ever tried to get an arc stable in a vacuum?
[21:24:13] <ds2> no, I am still looking for a welding class to learn it. just postulating from what I have read so far
[21:24:21] <robin_sz> and the argon arc is where hte heat comes from
[21:24:36] <robin_sz> argon/helium is a little hotter, better on thick stuff
[21:24:48] <ds2> does this preclude gas welding of Al all together?
[21:24:54] <robin_sz> no
[21:25:07] <robin_sz> what do you mean by "gas welding"?
[21:25:25] <robin_sz> oxy acetylene?
[21:25:46] <ds2> yes oxy ace
[21:25:52] <ds2> or oxy mapp
[21:26:01] <ds2> gas is what I want to learn
[21:26:10] <robin_sz> ummm ... why?
[21:26:24] <skunkworks> * skunkworks shivers a bit.
[21:26:28] <robin_sz> you can oxy fuel weld ally, yes
[21:27:12] <robin_sz> oxy fuel welding has some uses, theoretically it is the most flexible of all the processes
[21:27:20] <robin_sz> practically, it is the least used
[21:27:23] <ds2> flexibility is why
[21:27:29] <ds2> seems like a neat skill to ahve
[21:27:30] <ds2> have
[21:28:24] <robin_sz> these dyas, it mostly used for brazing, and cutting
[21:28:48] <robin_sz> and for heating parts
[21:28:58] <ds2> but for home/hobby use, it seems to be the best compromise.... the cheap MIG/TIG don't seem to let you braze or cut
[21:29:19] <robin_sz> for home hobby use, get a MIG
[21:29:38] <ds2> 110 or 220, In your opinion?
[21:29:50] <robin_sz> or if you want to pretend to be skillful, get a stick welder
[21:30:12] <robin_sz> 220.
[21:30:21] <ds2> but with gas, I don't have to worry about being flash tanned =)
[21:30:46] <robin_sz> err ... no, just dying when the bottles go off bang
[21:31:11] <ds2> heh...that's why I said oxy/mapp... little bit more stable then oxy ace
[21:31:21] <robin_sz> we wont have it on the premises
[21:31:28] <alex_joni> still.. oxy can go on by itself
[21:31:33] <robin_sz> it can
[21:31:40] <alex_joni> with a bit of grease to help it
[21:32:03] <ds2> any kind of organics is bad with O2
[21:32:10] <robin_sz> ds2, your local fire code will let you keep it in the house
[21:32:11] <robin_sz> ??
[21:32:28] <ds2> but that doesn't sound as scary as acetylene where you squeeze it toomuch or too little and goes bang
[21:32:45] <robin_sz> basically, gas has had its day for 'normal' or hobby welding
[21:32:57] <ds2> robin_sz: I don't think they mind if I go with the small bottles or if I adapt a medical O2 cylinder
[21:32:56] <robin_sz> useful for jewlellery
[21:33:09] <robin_sz> glasswork maybe
[21:33:15] <ds2> most of what I seem to work on is compareable to jewery
[21:33:26] <robin_sz> but for general welding, its not as good as MIG or stick
[21:33:32] <robin_sz> put way too much heat in
[21:33:47] <alex_joni> laser-hybrid baby :D
[21:33:53] <robin_sz> heh
[21:33:54] <alex_joni> laser-MIG
[21:34:00] <robin_sz> yeah, seen that
[21:34:51] <alex_joni> it's quite trendy these days
[21:34:59] <alex_joni> and cold process for thin stuff
[21:35:06] <robin_sz> s/trewndy/expensive/
[21:35:06] <alex_joni> something like AC MIG
[21:35:20] <alex_joni> only half a mil.
[21:35:26] <robin_sz> coo
[21:35:38] <robin_sz> automotive?
[21:35:53] <ds2> so much to learn with welding
[21:36:11] <robin_sz> ds2, take my advice get a mig
[21:36:19] <ds2> but it is nice to be able to both remove metal and put it back on ;)
[21:36:21] <alex_joni> robin_sz: yeah, but not only
[21:36:26] <robin_sz> Lincoln SP180i
[21:36:53] <ds2> robin_sz: I will keep what you said in mind when I go looking for it. I want to try it out in a class first before doing anything else
[21:37:21] <robin_sz> alex_joni, well, as I said .. oxy fuel is *in theory* the most flexible of all processes
[21:37:40] <robin_sz> alex_joni, yet I doubt we could do much / any? of our work with it
[21:38:30] <alex_joni> I like TIG actually
[21:38:40] <robin_sz> yeah, precise, but slow
[21:38:43] <alex_joni> although I mostly/only do MAG
[21:39:01] <alex_joni> you can probably weld the same things with TIG as with oxy-fuel
[21:39:01] <robin_sz> we just bought a Migatronic Dialog 220
[21:39:06] <robin_sz> yep
[21:39:23] <alex_joni> robin_sz: did a couple automatic feeders for TIG
[21:39:31] <alex_joni> makes it a lot easier for the welder
[21:39:33] <robin_sz> but you can't do with oxyfule what you can do with tig
[21:40:02] <robin_sz> we have one job that needs a corner fillet in 2 bits of 1.2mm mild steel
[21:40:07] <robin_sz> internal fillet
[21:40:17] <robin_sz> 10mm run, neat as possible
[21:40:26] <ds2> make it out of billet and use a bull nose EM ;)
[21:40:52] <robin_sz> our tig guy does it so nicely ... the weld is like 1mm wide
[21:41:09] <robin_sz> no filler, just a fusion weld
[21:42:55] <alex_joni> * alex_joni heads to bed
[21:42:58] <alex_joni> good night all
[21:43:12] <robin_sz> http://www.goindustry.com/en/tig-welder-equipment-image-1114000-1114518-1.jpg
[21:43:17] <robin_sz> night alex
[21:43:40] <Ziegler> 220 if you have it
[21:43:52] <Ziegler> oops wrong window
[21:44:59] <robin_sz> ds2 you are in the USA right?
[21:46:17] <robin_sz> http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?p=42419
[21:46:22] <ds2> robin_sz: yep
[21:46:27] <robin_sz> ^^ nice machine
[21:46:57] <robin_sz> http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?p=42422
[21:47:02] <robin_sz> nicer machine ^^
[21:47:03] <robin_sz> :)
[21:47:22] <ds2> you must secretly work for the credit card companies, don't you? ;)
[21:48:26] <robin_sz> heh
[21:48:30] <robin_sz> try ebay :
[21:48:32] <robin_sz> :)
[21:48:52] <ds2> blah
[21:49:21] <ds2> you going to engrave me a sign - "Will Weld for food"? =)
[21:50:27] <robin_sz> http://cgi.ebay.com/LINCOLN-ELECTRIC-WELDER-135-AMP-MIG-FLUX-CORED-FEED_W0QQitemZ260121715795QQihZ016QQcategoryZ113743QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[21:50:53] <robin_sz> the only other important point is to buy an automatic helmet
[21:51:12] <robin_sz> ie with an LCD eye screen
[21:51:21] <ds2> probally need one of those leather suits to go w/it?
[21:51:25] <robin_sz> nah
[21:51:29] <ds2> I've seen those helments
[21:51:40] <robin_sz> if you decide to try welding, buy one
[21:51:42] <ds2> then what do I use to prevent the flash sunburns?
[21:51:50] <robin_sz> cotton jacket?
[21:51:59] <ds2> oh that's good enough?
[21:52:09] <robin_sz> so long as its not too thin
[21:52:21] <ds2> is a tyvek lab smock useable?
[21:52:21] <robin_sz> a normal boiler suit is fine
[21:52:25] <robin_sz> sure
[21:52:44] <robin_sz> and a glove
[21:52:47] <robin_sz> or two
[21:52:57] <ds2> got the gloves already for brazing
[21:53:16] <robin_sz> if you are right handed, wear a welding glove on your left hand
[21:53:25] <robin_sz> and then a thin glove on your right
[21:53:34] <robin_sz> the left hand shields the right hand ...
[21:53:41] <ds2> ah
[21:54:01] <robin_sz> for light welding, a light glove is fine anyway
[21:54:26] <ds2> is it safe to weld on concrete? i know foundry work on concrete is a bad idea
[21:54:30] <robin_sz> nope
[21:54:51] <ds2> what's a suitable welding surface?
[21:54:55] <robin_sz> build a metal table, a bit higher than a normal table
[21:55:03] <robin_sz> so you can stand and weld without bending over
[21:55:10] <alex_joni> depends on what you weld :)
[21:55:14] <alex_joni> TIG is nicer higher
[21:55:17] <alex_joni> MIG is nicer lower
[21:55:22] <robin_sz> true
[21:55:22] <ds2> ack... more expense
[21:55:28] <robin_sz> eh?
[21:55:35] <alex_joni> but for TIG it's nice to sit
[21:55:37] <ds2> metal tables aren't cheap
[21:55:51] <alex_joni> ds2: that's why you got a welder
[21:55:55] <robin_sz> ok, just put a bit of steel plate on a coule of wooden frame
[21:55:55] <alex_joni> to weld it up
[21:56:05] <ds2> nor is stock to build one
[21:56:12] <ds2> ah
[21:56:21] <robin_sz> wel jsut cut 1.2m square, tack 4 legs onto it
[21:56:30] <robin_sz> and then put bracing under to make it FLAT
[21:56:40] <robin_sz> FLAT is important for anything like decent work
[21:56:46] <robin_sz> bent table, bent work
[21:58:34] <ds2> ah a 5' x 5' table
[21:58:45] <robin_sz> 4' by 4'
[21:59:06] <ds2> 120/25.4 =~ 4.72
[21:59:53] <robin_sz> 120 what?
[21:59:59] <ds2> enough temptation for one day... esp. the day before a long weekend when I can actually act on it :/
[22:00:02] <ds2> 120 cm
[22:00:14] <robin_sz> eh?
[22:00:21] <ds2> bah
[22:00:22] <robin_sz> 120 / 2.54 = ?
[22:00:31] <robin_sz> 47.2 "
[22:00:37] <ds2> n/m
[22:00:45] <ds2> hence the reason I hate metric =)
[22:01:11] <robin_sz> hence the reason I hate usaian units
[22:01:16] <ds2> hahah
[22:01:17] <SWPadnos> it looks like math is the problem, not metric ;)
[22:01:18] <robin_sz> 1200mm,
[22:01:30] <ds2> yes, I know where i went wrong with the conversion
[22:01:50] <ds2> SWPadnos: if it was all non metric, there would be no math ;)
[22:02:03] <robin_sz> no ..
[22:02:09] <SWPadnos> no, you'd still have to multiply/divide by 12 from time to time
[22:02:12] <robin_sz> if it was all metric there would be no math
[22:02:13] <SWPadnos> and 3
[22:02:18] <SWPadnos> and 16
[22:02:27] <SWPadnos> and 2, 4, 60, ...
[22:02:28] <ds2> but not 25.4 or 2.54
[22:02:33] <ds2> or that 39.something number
[22:02:41] <SWPadnos> 1/25.4 ;)
[22:03:30] <ds2> how do you visualize 1cm? 1ft is well, roughly the lenght of my foot
[22:03:30] <robin_sz> theres only 2 countries officially not metric now
[22:03:40] <SWPadnos> US + Iran?
[22:03:48] <robin_sz> 1cm is a finger width
[22:03:51] <SWPadnos> no, US+ Zimbabwe
[22:03:58] <ds2> Liberia isn't it?
[22:03:59] <SWPadnos> no, wait - I'l lfigure out the other one ...
[22:04:01] <SWPadnos> :)
[22:04:07] <robin_sz> Liberia I think
[22:04:23] <SWPadnos> actually, the US is officially metric, but nobody uses it
[22:04:31] <SWPadnos> has been since the '70s
[22:05:00] <robin_sz> heh
[22:06:09] <ds2> feets, stones, etc just seem more grounded in reality then some multiple of a certain light
[22:06:19] <robin_sz> stones?
[22:06:37] <ds2> besides, you claim metric is standard, yet people sell bar stock that is 25.4mm...
[22:06:37] <robin_sz> whats that?
[22:06:41] <ds2> yeah... stones is a weight unit
[22:06:47] <robin_sz> oh, right
[22:06:50] <SWPadnos> don't forget rods, chains, links, pecks, bushels, drams ...
[22:07:43] <ds2> I find it annoying to have to call out 12.7mm stock
[22:07:59] <SWPadnos> then get the mating piece to be metric as well
[22:08:12] <SWPadnos> note that it's only when you cant to match metric with imperial that you have problems
[22:08:14] <robin_sz> well, you wouldnt actully buy 12.7mm stock over here
[22:08:16] <SWPadnos> s/cant/want/
[22:08:18] <robin_sz> youd buy 12mm
[22:08:36] <ds2> I think in AU, they actually sell stock as 12.7mm, 25.4mm, etc
[22:08:43] <robin_sz> like no one sells 12.7mm stock, thats so weird
[22:09:01] <ds2> then there is an ISO standard calling out a 12.7mm oriface
[22:09:17] <ds2> (viscosity measurement of something... found it a while back)
[22:09:23] <robin_sz> weird
[22:09:44] <robin_sz> we just dont see inches and perches used anymore over here
[22:10:45] <ds2> it irritates me to no end to read numbers like those. calling out 12mm makes sense. 12.7 is just downright irritating
[22:10:52] <robin_sz> quite
[22:11:10] <robin_sz> cant say ive seen much of that in recent years
[22:11:27] <robin_sz> back in the 70s when conversion happened I gues sit might have been around
[22:13:05] <robin_sz> I dont think ive seen cm used in a while either
[22:13:28] <ds2> what is the correct metric unit of length nowadays?
[22:13:41] <robin_sz> correct?
[22:13:51] <robin_sz> depends
[22:13:52] <ds2> you said, you haven't seen cm used
[22:14:02] <SWPadnos> meters
[22:14:03] <robin_sz> nope, npt seen cm used ofr a while
[22:14:12] <robin_sz> meters for big things
[22:14:18] <robin_sz> mm for small things
[22:14:30] <robin_sz> and kilomtres for travel
[22:14:33] <ds2> so MKS is the standard (not CGS)?
[22:14:34] <SWPadnos> sure
[22:14:41] <SWPadnos> sure to robin_sz
[22:14:43] <robin_sz> yeah
[22:14:58] <robin_sz> and um for really small things
[22:15:06] <ds2> wow... chronos sees stuff in inch units!
[22:15:20] <robin_sz> chronos?
[22:15:31] <ds2> http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/
[22:15:47] <ds2> see their ads a lot in imported UK rags like MEW
[22:18:24] <robin_sz> not heard of them before
[22:18:43] <robin_sz> J&L industrial supply are the biog name here I htink
[22:18:55] <ds2> thought they were US?
[22:19:02] <robin_sz> and here
[22:19:25] <ds2> it is all MSC now
[22:19:49] <robin_sz> chronos looks liek a hobbyists site
[22:20:04] <robin_sz> the hobbyists all build steam trains
[22:20:20] <robin_sz> so i guess inches are used for the old plans
[22:20:26] <ds2> that seems right given the audience of MEW
[22:21:33] <robin_sz> yeah
[22:21:47] <robin_sz> chornos is a train builders store for sure
[23:21:40] <CIA-8> 03swpadnos 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/components/pwmgen.c: Added offset parameter, to more closely match the canonical DAC
[23:30:16] <sebastienbailard> hey all, I'm trying to compile a list of benchtop CNC router kits (the mechanical parts). Can anyone recommend any?
[23:37:40] <JymmmEMC> You mean DIY Kits that use things like angle iron, skate bearings, MDF/Plywood, and black pipe?
[23:38:50] <sebastienbailard> Yes. e.g. http://comptonsoft.com/cnc/index.php , http://www.mikebeck.org/
[23:39:27] <sebastienbailard> I'm looking for kits I can recommend for people building RepRap 3D printer bootstrap machines.
[23:40:05] <JymmmEMC> Um, Don't do it???
[23:40:29] <JymmmEMC> Wood is meant to BE machined, not PART of the machine.
[23:40:52] <JymmmEMC> Believe me, I tried =)
[23:41:15] <sebastienbailard> JymmmEMC, this is part of a 3D printer, so wood is ok, we don't have the vibration a subtractive machine has to deal with.
[23:41:34] <SWPadnos> reprap, baby!
[23:41:36] <JymmmEMC> Thermal expansion
[23:41:43] <JymmmEMC> Lack of any tolerances
[23:41:54] <JymmmEMC> Rigidity
[23:42:11] <JymmmEMC> Squareness
[23:42:22] <JymmmEMC> Accuracy, repeatability
[23:43:26] <sebastienbailard> JymmmEMC, we only need 0.1 mm precision, and we're not cutting steel here, it's like a 3D plotter.
[23:43:51] <sebastienbailard> hey lewing.
[23:43:54] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, think of the forces on an inkjet printhead
[23:44:22] <lewing> hey sebastienbailard
[23:44:51] <sebastienbailard> lewing, I'm researching CNC router kits to recommend as RepStraps. Know any?
[23:45:59] <lewing> sebastienbailard: not a lot, but I can did around in my notes
[23:46:19] <lewing> sebastienbailard: I'll be writing up my design soon as well
[23:47:01] <sebastienbailard> That's good. Do you want to put them up on the main site? "The lewing-repstrap variation"
[23:48:17] <lewing> sebastienbailard: quite possibly
[23:48:53] <sebastienbailard> lewing, Great. I don't think Zach and forrest have done so yet.
[23:49:37] <lewing> work has been eating into my fun projects lately