#emc | Logs for 2007-05-22

[00:21:29] <JymmmEMC> a-l-p-h-a_: pretty much. OOP might be modular, but procedural has better performance and a lot more stright forward to me. OOP is best when multiple dev's are workign on the same project.
[00:23:05] <JymmmEMC> a-l-p-h-a_: Beside... PHPoop
[00:24:51] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, I don't know what procedural vs oop languages you've looked at, but the blanket statement "procedural has better performance" would cause a lot of people to question your background ...
[00:25:59] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: It really doesn't matter much to me. I've never claimed to be a "developer". I'll do c, but not c++ for the same reason. It's all good =)
[00:26:35] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I'm content in the "method to my madness" approach and reasoning =)
[00:27:24] <SWPadnos> methods are an OOP paradigm ;)
[00:27:43] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: goony goo goo =)
[00:28:10] <ds2> C doesn't mean nonOOP
[00:30:26] <SWPadnos> assembly doesn't mean non-OOP, even
[00:30:36] <SWPadnos> at least, not quite always ;)
[01:02:28] <mschuhmacher_> mschuhmacher_ is now known as mschuhmacher2
[01:03:37] <mschuhmacher2> mschuhmacher2 is now known as mschuhmacher_
[01:19:08] <cradek> is - read, motion command handler, motion controller, pid, write - the right order in the servo thread?
[01:21:23] <mschuhmacher_> mschuhmacher_ is now known as mschuhmacher
[01:22:29] <SWPadnos> it sounds like it should be
[01:25:41] <mschuhmacher> :)
[02:54:04] <skunkworks> Tool setting microswitch seems to work.
[02:54:14] <cradek> cool
[02:54:58] <skunkworks> I can't run the speeds you do though. 15ipm really rattles the machine.
[02:56:05] <skunkworks> BTW - doing a g91 without resetting it back to g90 make for a odd preview
[02:58:27] <skunkworks> took a bit to figure out ;)
[02:59:57] <skunkworks> the touchoff for different coordinate systems works like a charm. I really needed it.
[03:36:44] <Ito-Brazil> Hello ALL, its me again
[03:37:08] <Ito-Brazil> I have something a lot more complex.... An EMC2 very light dostro
[03:37:26] <Ito-Brazil> UBUNTU is very hard to play on a P233/128 RAM huh?
[03:37:56] <Ito-Brazil> Have you guys something like Pure slack with only EMC2 and lan support?
[03:38:15] <Ito-Brazil> or Gentoo, or only Debian on fluxbox etc.. ?
[03:39:01] <eric_u> there is nothing special about ubuntu
[03:39:14] <eric_u> however, putting emc together from scratch is not easy
[03:39:26] <Ito-Brazil> yeah i know...
[03:39:51] <Ito-Brazil> But a CNC machine simply needs not all those tnings...
[03:40:24] <eric_u> true
[03:40:43] <eric_u> lots are running on 486 or slower processors
[03:40:57] <eric_u> but emc is not those CNC controllers
[03:41:48] <SWPadnos> you can install ubuntu server, then manually add packages
[03:41:50] <eric_u> there was that puppy linux emc distro, but it's out of date I suppose
[03:42:07] <SWPadnos> or use xubuntu, which is based on xfce instead of the full-blown KDE or Gnome
[03:42:46] <SWPadnos> puppy also had the problem that it was very hard to install all the development tools, and there was no other method of updating
[03:43:05] <SWPadnos> (since there was also no package manager or no packages)
[03:44:06] <eric_u> I don't know how to build a lean system. I tend to buy better computers
[03:44:10] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:44:42] <SWPadnos> I'd love to have a stripped-down Ubuntu, so I could still use the excellent package management tools (and the EMC packages)
[03:44:58] <SWPadnos> but I'm too lazy^W busy to make one
[03:45:06] <eric_u> how do you do it?
[03:45:13] <SWPadnos> damfino
[03:45:25] <eric_u> go into rc.local and delete lots of scripts
[03:45:39] <eric_u> or rather rc.d
[03:45:46] <N-Labs> Sorry my connection has falled
[03:45:59] <N-Labs> you know 3r world.... :-[
[03:46:02] <SWPadnos> well, I'm not thinking about reducing the number of daemons and that kind of thing, I'm thinking more of not installing them in the first place
[03:46:04] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:46:35] <eric_u> not running them is the first step
[03:46:49] <SWPadnos> not if you're thinking about a bootable CD ;)
[03:46:49] <N-Labs> sorry disturb ya guys, i made my EMC2 from scratch, using XUBUNTU
[03:46:56] <SWPadnos> cool
[03:47:10] <N-Labs> but i want some more speed you know
[03:47:17] <SWPadnos> I suggested that when you were being disconnected
[03:47:29] <eric_u> what processor?
[03:47:29] <N-Labs> i tryed coolcnc too, its nice, but no more updates...
[03:47:55] <N-Labs> P233 / 128 RAM (NO AXIS of course)
[03:48:02] <eric_u> ouch
[03:48:24] <N-Labs> yeah.... 3rd world.... it sux for ya europeans and americans... lol
[03:48:36] <eric_u> of course, I used to run windows NT4 on a 66mhz computer with less memory, and it ran fine
[03:48:51] <SWPadnos> well back in my day ...
[03:48:53] <SWPadnos> :)
[03:49:08] <N-Labs> yeah it runs actually, but i want EMC2 hehe
[03:49:13] <eric_u> young whippersnapper better not go there
[03:49:23] <N-Labs> i have a P3 / 550Mhz on 256 RAM
[03:49:23] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:49:43] <N-Labs> will it run better with coolcnc or same thing on ubuntu ?
[03:49:44] <SWPadnos> I'm quite sure I'm in the same age range as you (within an order of magnitude, anyway)
[03:49:54] <SWPadnos> I don't think it'll matter much
[03:50:01] <eric_u> 5 to 500, pretty wide range
[03:50:18] <SWPadnos> as eric_u mentioned, you'll want to disable almost everything in /etc/rc2.d
[03:50:25] <SWPadnos> heh - I knew I'd pegged it ;)
[03:51:32] <eric_u> what is runlevel 2?
[03:51:46] <SWPadnos> I believe that's the default runlevel on Ubuntu
[03:51:55] <SWPadnos> on most Debian systems, that's basically the "normal" state
[03:52:13] <SWPadnos> multiuser, networking and X enabled, servers running
[03:52:20] <eric_u> ok, so it's minimum multiuser
[03:52:44] <SWPadnos> well, Debian doesn't seem to make much distinction between levels 2-5, I think
[03:52:59] <SWPadnos> 1 is single, 2-5 are "normal", 6 is shutdown ...
[03:53:01] <eric_u> redhat, 3 is tty and 5 is X
[03:53:05] <SWPadnos> right
[03:53:09] <SWPadnos> debian is different
[03:53:26] <ds2> if you are going to do all that, why bother with a distro
[03:53:34] <eric_u> 2 starts in graphical mode?
[03:53:56] <eric_u> there is a linux distro called "linux from scratch"
[03:54:10] <SWPadnos> I believe 2 is the normal X login with Debian (and Ubuntu in particular)
[03:54:13] <ds2> why not just really do it from scratch? it is not that hard
[03:54:39] <eric_u> linux from scratch tells you how you can do it, no files
[03:54:55] <ds2> thesedays, you have busybox. when i first did it, you had to scour tsx-11, sunsite, and prep.ai
[03:56:03] <eric_u> probably easier than using a mainstream distro and modifying it
[03:56:38] <ds2> *nod*
[03:56:50] <ds2> distros are make okay root disk to get started
[03:57:08] <ds2> I suppose Gentoo would be the closest if you want a precanned process
[03:57:21] <eric_u> I though Gentoo was too much work
[03:57:25] <SWPadnos> that's not so great on a P233 ;)
[03:58:02] <eric_u> P233 is a lot of computer when it comes right down to it
[03:58:10] <SWPadnos> Gentoo is pretty easy, but can be slow to update if you do your own compiling
[03:58:33] <N-Labs> i think the problem is the EMC2 and axis updates
[03:58:34] <SWPadnos> essentially you do the same as apt-get on Debian, but it's called "emerge" on Gentoo
[03:58:46] <N-Labs> i can try a gentoo distro, guys
[03:59:01] <eric_u> It just seemed like a lot of work to get to a system that was going to be a lot like a mainstream distribution
[03:59:06] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure if there's an RTAI ebuild for Gentoo
[03:59:14] <eric_u> probably not
[03:59:22] <SWPadnos> and you do need X for the nicer GUIs
[03:59:44] <eric_u> but you can use a lighter-weight window manager
[03:59:57] <N-Labs> yeah, like fluxbox
[03:59:58] <SWPadnos> if you want an EMC2-only computer (auto-login, basically run emc as init), then you can probably strip out a lot
[04:00:04] <N-Labs> im using heare on ubuntu
[04:00:24] <eric_u> somebody was maintaining a debian package of RTAI for a while
[04:00:25] <N-Labs> that´s it, that´s what i have heare
[04:00:35] <N-Labs> i installed XUBUNTU + EMC2
[04:00:39] <N-Labs> just it
[04:00:39] <SWPadnos> I think the wiki has a list of packages you need to install onto Ubuntu server for a basic X workstation
[04:00:47] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure if it's up to date though
[04:01:16] <N-Labs> oke, but its still hard, compared with coolcnc (PUPPY)
[04:01:19] <eric_u> I've got to figure out how to make RTAI kernels again
[04:01:27] <SWPadnos> there is supposed to be an RTAI package in the Ubuntu "Multiverse" repos, but I don't think it's ever been installable for me
[04:01:43] <SWPadnos> that's not so hard, unless you want SMP and x86_64 support
[04:01:49] <N-Labs> I was thinking on a VERY BASIC LINUX distro, just to put EMC2 to control the machines
[04:02:00] <SWPadnos> N-Labs, sounds good to me :)
[04:02:07] <eric_u> minor problem of the real-time kernel
[04:02:12] <N-Labs> and another desktop to put the other softwares, like colabcad
[04:02:46] <ds2> X can be reasonably light weight
[04:02:46] <eric_u> whatza colabcad?
[04:02:57] <SWPadnos> ah, a machine controller + remote displays. that should allow a very stripped down install on the machine controller
[04:03:03] <ds2> start by chucking those bloated desktop managers and go back to a nice tiny window manager
[04:03:05] <N-Labs> it´s a nice cad/cam, very good
[04:03:20] <ds2> i.e. fvwm or twm
[04:03:20] <eric_u> I like the idea of using 2 computers
[04:03:30] <N-Labs> runs on windows (need to pay) and has the codes to linux (free)
[04:03:37] <eric_u> then the machine controller barely needs any desktop manager
[04:03:48] <N-Labs> yeah!
[04:03:52] <N-Labs> that´s it!
[04:04:07] <N-Labs> and i gess a 486 can do it too, huh?
[04:04:12] <ds2> i built a setup like that but its awaiting me cleaning out the garage before i can deploy it
[04:04:19] <N-Labs> not thinking to use one,ok? hehe
[04:04:32] <eric_u> it's collabcad, right?
[04:04:42] <eric_u> http://www.collabcad.com/
[04:04:56] <N-Labs> i gess, let me search my links, have ya founded yet?
[04:05:06] <N-Labs> yeah, sorry my bad typing
[04:05:55] <eric_u> Indian shareware, hmmm....
[04:05:58] <Jymmm> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/tls/335756768.html
[04:06:34] <eric_u> sorry, just kidding, that's a joke in my lab when one of the Indian grad students wants me to fix their computer
[04:06:56] <N-Labs> but it seems to be a nice software huh?
[04:07:18] <N-Labs> to put on the desktop linux
[04:07:35] <N-Labs> on the CNC-linux only emc2 running alone
[04:07:35] <eric_u> if it works, sure
[04:08:12] <eric_u> Jymmmm, did you get the giant granite plate?
[04:08:35] <eric_u> http://www.collabcad.com/featuresCollabCAD.html
[04:08:53] <eric_u> is that gear moving???
[04:09:16] <eric_u> N-Labs, where are you located?
[04:09:22] <N-Labs> i gess its stopped
[04:09:31] <N-Labs> I am Ito_Brazil
[04:09:38] <N-Labs> im from Brazil, of course hehe
[04:09:47] <eric_u> nice
[04:09:54] <N-Labs> I am the guy that has the EMC2 running phase-drives
[04:10:23] <eric_u> I only saw a little bit of that conversation
[04:10:31] <N-Labs> have ya seen the first test? from my CNC mill machine?
[04:10:40] <N-Labs> oke
[04:10:57] <eric_u> didn't see the test, was there smoke?
[04:11:16] <N-Labs> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Videos
[04:11:58] <N-Labs> CNC engraved 2 times, TS material, 50 x 50 mm, G1 on F1000
[04:12:06] <N-Labs> Sorry i´m very proud hehe
[04:12:18] <N-Labs> I simply loved EMC2 and got addicted
[04:12:30] <N-Labs> i was using TurboCNC (oh boy that sux)
[04:15:45] <N-Labs> before this first test, of course
[04:15:55] <N-Labs> now bye bye DOS lol
[04:16:05] <eric_u> did you have the phase drive working on turboCNC?
[04:16:11] <N-Labs> yep
[04:16:42] <N-Labs> i developed a LINEAR current board to boost 40V on my 6V steppers
[04:16:49] <N-Labs> it works very fine
[04:17:21] <N-Labs> i showed to some guys that uses good chopper drives and they got mad with the phase-drive performance
[04:17:51] <eric_u> weird getting youtube links on google
[04:19:01] <eric_u> I use a lot of old computers at work, people throw them out, I bolt them to the walls
[04:20:15] <N-Labs> its nice to use only to control the machines
[04:20:33] <N-Labs> maybe its a good collaborative project huh?
[04:20:40] <N-Labs> whare are ya eric ?
[04:20:45] <eric_u> US
[04:20:50] <N-Labs> oke
[04:22:47] <N-Labs> old computers to you eric, for me could be COOL ones
[04:22:51] <N-Labs> like P3 ?
[04:23:08] <eric_u> at home, P3, at work, P4
[04:23:45] <eric_u> At work, I have a dual Xeon 1.8GHz P4 bolted to the wall
[04:23:59] <eric_u> running embedded code
[04:24:09] <N-Labs> IC
[04:24:37] <eric_u> My EMC computer is a P3 850
[04:25:22] <eric_u> got the computer free with no memory and bought the processor
[04:26:03] <N-Labs> wow
[04:26:17] <N-Labs> wis i have one like that
[04:26:26] <N-Labs> i use a P233 / 128 ram
[04:27:25] <eric_u> too bad it's so hard to get a p233 to run an up to date OS
[04:27:34] <eric_u> that's plenty of computer
[04:27:53] <N-Labs> yeah, but it runs emc2
[04:27:57] <N-Labs> on xubuntu
[04:28:15] <N-Labs> i want to make a light distro, maybe gentoo minimal
[04:28:21] <N-Labs> just to move the machine
[04:28:26] <N-Labs> i have a good desktop
[04:28:51] <N-Labs> an AMD64/ 2gb RAM / XFX 6800 - 256 ram/256 bits
[04:29:10] <N-Labs> but to put it to move the CNC is insane
[04:29:33] <eric_u> a little insane
[04:29:37] <N-Labs> COOLCNC runs EMC2 using a 486 / 32 ram dude
[04:30:04] <N-Labs> so why not just put a minimal OS, RTL, HAL etc + EMC there on a P233?
[04:30:41] <N-Labs> sounds more smart, dont ya?
[04:31:49] <eric_u> not a bad idea
[04:32:57] <eric_u> the coolcnc guys seem to have had lots of problems with it though
[04:33:18] <eric_u> however, I know there are people running RTAI on minimal hardware
[04:33:29] <N-Labs> it runs good heare
[04:33:33] <N-Labs> controls the machine
[04:33:52] <eric_u> but you want upgrades?
[04:33:57] <N-Labs> as good as the xubuntu+emc "distro" i made from scratch
[04:34:13] <N-Labs> yeah....On that point you got me
[04:34:31] <N-Labs> but it runs better, much more light
[04:34:51] <N-Labs> thats why i was thinking in make some gentoo minimal plus EMC2
[04:34:53] <eric_u> with a machine, once you get it running, upgrades are of questionable value
[04:35:10] <toastydeath> depends on the upgrade
[04:35:22] <eric_u> OR DOES IT?
[04:35:24] <N-Labs> maybe, so there is an EMC1 on redhat too...
[04:35:34] <N-Labs> That´s why upgrades are excencials
[04:35:39] <toastydeath> like if you're talking about extra features or a more complete g-code implementation
[04:35:51] <toastydeath> because emc's g-code is far from complete
[04:36:10] <N-Labs> i want a CNC running EMC2 on a light OS
[04:36:31] <eric_u> can you build EMC2 on your system?
[04:36:32] <N-Labs> But, if Those wonder guys got a brand new feature on axix or EMC2?
[04:36:44] <N-Labs> will i cry forever cos i cant get that? lol
[04:36:45] <toastydeath> how is linux not a light os
[04:37:03] <toastydeath> have you seen the stuff it will run on.
[04:37:17] <eric_u> he's talking about a stripped down linux
[04:37:21] <toastydeath> right?
[04:37:29] <N-Labs> just download coolcnc and run from CD and compare with your ubuntu on hardisk
[04:37:32] <eric_u> you can't run EMC2 on a gumstix
[04:37:38] <N-Labs> you will know what i mean
[04:37:40] <eric_u> yet
[04:37:59] <toastydeath> to be fair, i'm lost as to why you'd want to run emc2 on a gumstix though
[04:38:12] <N-Labs> oke lemme explain
[04:38:19] <N-Labs> first
[04:38:30] <eric_u> because you can?
[04:38:39] <N-Labs> why to have openoffice, inkscape ans lots of more stuff on a CNC PC controller?
[04:38:49] <ds2> why can't you run EMC2 on a gumstix?
[04:38:55] <N-Labs> if this computer will ONLY control the machine?
[04:38:57] <eric_u> RTAI, I think
[04:39:13] <toastydeath> yes, why do you want a very slow computer running a cnc
[04:39:24] <toastydeath> most commercial controls have 3 or more processors
[04:39:39] <eric_u> really?
[04:39:43] <ds2> think they recently got RTAI onto the gumstix
[04:39:44] <toastydeath> yeah
[04:39:45] <N-Labs> 2nd: I have lots of old PCs on garage, why neeed i to buy other one just to control a CNC?
[04:40:06] <eric_u> cool, I'll have to look into that, I have a batch of gumstix
[04:40:08] <N-Labs> thats the point we talk coolcnc x ubuntu
[04:40:16] <N-Labs> cos coolcnc runs much faster
[04:40:19] <toastydeath> even a relatively cheap machine like haas
[04:40:21] <toastydeath> has 3 processors
[04:40:25] <N-Labs> but its not so upgradable
[04:40:31] <eric_u> where are they hiding?
[04:40:35] <toastydeath> not sure
[04:40:41] <ds2> but haas machines are DOS boxes
[04:40:48] <toastydeath> that's what they advertise
[04:40:56] <toastydeath> they're not fast
[04:40:58] <toastydeath> there's just three of them.
[04:41:11] <toastydeath> i forget the exact model
[04:42:00] <eric_u> not hard to have 3 processors nowadays
[04:42:05] <N-Labs> oke guys i got to go, i will try to put EMC2 on Gentoo
[04:42:10] <eric_u> good luck
[04:42:18] <N-Labs> i´ll keep ya in touch about
[04:42:22] <toastydeath> not at all! and for something like a machine controller, it's pretty advantagous
[04:42:24] <N-Labs> thx
[04:42:42] <toastydeath> i think haas uses 400 mhz chips
[04:42:45] <toastydeath> THINK
[04:42:54] <eric_u> I have thought about running 2 processors, one for video and the other to run the machine
[04:43:01] <toastydeath> ...video?
[04:43:03] <toastydeath> why not both for the machine
[04:43:04] <eric_u> X
[04:43:19] <eric_u> EMC doesn't split well
[04:43:21] <toastydeath> ah
[04:43:25] <ds2> problem with 3 proc is your interconnect can become critical
[04:43:39] <eric_u> except at the user interface, it splits fine
[04:43:57] <toastydeath> from what i understand machine control is not an interconnect intensive application
[04:44:15] <toastydeath> it's not like you've got thousands of ghost cells doing weather modeling
[04:44:34] <toastydeath> i'm pretty sure they're just using it for prompt per-axis repsonse
[04:44:45] <eric_u> interesting
[04:44:47] <ds2> what about jogging?
[04:44:55] <toastydeath> what do you mean
[04:44:58] <toastydeath> as in, the jog handle?
[04:44:59] <eric_u> if you count like that, I have a 4 processor machine
[04:45:13] <ds2> if there is a sudden glitch/delay, the user may be over shoot and crash
[04:45:20] <ds2> yeah, jog handle/MPG/pendants/etc
[04:45:39] <toastydeath> i'm not sure how that comes into this
[04:45:41] <toastydeath> explain?
[04:45:47] <toastydeath> glitch/delay in what
[04:45:48] <ds2> it'll be like using a haas machine in the 1" per click mode
[04:45:59] <eric_u> that sounds scary
[04:45:59] <ds2> in the interconnect...
[04:46:08] <toastydeath> it's not like that
[04:46:12] <ds2> you have 1 proc doing UI
[04:46:17] <ds2> you have another one doing motion
[04:46:30] <toastydeath> the interconnect is not very important here
[04:46:43] <ds2> a MPG would send one command for every "click", if the motion control does not respond consistantly, the user may click it too much
[04:46:58] <ds2> and if you are tool setting, the extra click could be a crash
[04:47:06] <toastydeath> you're too slow to outrun the interconnect.
[04:47:20] <ds2> depends on how busy the interconnect is
[04:47:23] <toastydeath> and, in the mpg/jog case
[04:47:28] <eric_u> depends on the architecture
[04:47:30] <toastydeath> you're not really multithreading
[04:48:05] <ds2> it doesn't take much to screw up people; people expect a consistant feedback
[04:48:11] <toastydeath> and they get it.
[04:48:31] <ds2> a really bad example would be say a 100KHz multimaster I2C bus for interconnect
[04:48:33] <eric_u> EMC w/ 2 processors is probably enough processors
[04:48:54] <ds2> you might not be overruning the bus w/just jogging but if there are other background traffic...
[04:49:01] <eric_u> I don't see the need for more, unless you start counting the ones in the motor drives
[04:49:12] <toastydeath> if you have background traffic on a single processor
[04:49:15] <toastydeath> you're also going to have problems
[04:49:26] <ds2> 1 inputs, 1 outputs, 1 motion/core
[04:49:39] <toastydeath> in a machine controller, that's not necessarily true
[04:49:41] <eric_u> I have to side with toasty here
[04:49:43] <toastydeath> in EMC, it is
[04:49:52] <toastydeath> you are using commodity hardware to control
[04:49:57] <ds2> this is sort of like the old TR vs Ethernet argument
[04:50:06] <toastydeath> what arguement?
[04:50:09] <eric_u> whazza TR?
[04:50:14] <ds2> Token Ring
[04:50:16] <toastydeath> it's more like FDDI versus ethernet
[04:50:26] <ds2> FDDI is closer to FE
[04:50:40] <toastydeath> but again, in a jogging situation
[04:50:47] <toastydeath> you're not using your multiprocessor environment
[04:50:59] <ds2> but same idea... FDDI/TR is deterministic, ethernet is not... by critical, what I mean is your interconnects have to be RT/deterministic
[04:51:03] <eric_u> Jog wheel in EMC is on the real-time side, correct?
[04:51:34] <toastydeath> ds, i think you're reading way too much into this
[04:51:40] <toastydeath> into the interconnect
[04:52:00] <toastydeath> and i can imagine a million situations where you would be right on the money
[04:52:00] <eric_u> there is a deterministic ethernet driver for RTAI
[04:52:15] <eric_u> just to throw in silly facts
[04:52:17] <toastydeath> but EMC also has the ability to run an MP3 player
[04:52:27] <ds2> eric_u: don't see how that owuld be possible if there are more then 2 nodes
[04:52:27] <toastydeath> while you're machining with five axes
[04:52:34] <eric_u> only 2 nodes
[04:52:52] <toastydeath> which is something you never, ever have to deal with in a commercial control
[04:52:55] <ds2> I could see it being desireable to split motion between 2 systems just because you run out of IO
[04:52:57] <toastydeath> so they get off easy
[04:53:15] <ds2> say, 2 axis per processor
[04:54:13] <toastydeath> i believe the response time is better
[04:54:24] <eric_u> too much work
[04:54:40] <toastydeath> ?
[04:54:51] <eric_u> to split off 2 axes per processor
[04:55:09] <toastydeath> i think it's more of a processor queue
[04:55:15] <toastydeath> rather than dedicated
[04:55:30] <ds2> or maybe another split is - tool changer processsor
[04:55:32] <toastydeath> regular ol' scheduling
[04:55:42] <toastydeath> nah, because some controls go to 10, 12 processors
[04:55:47] <eric_u> ds2 -- that is what I was thinking
[04:55:48] <toastydeath> expensive ones
[04:56:14] <eric_u> I have an aerotech system that splits the processors out
[04:56:22] <eric_u> I think
[04:56:27] <toastydeath> rather than go to a 2 ghz machine, they seem to just be adding more 400/800 mhz units
[04:56:38] <eric_u> makes sense
[04:56:43] <toastydeath> to cut down on scheduling
[04:57:00] <ds2> 400/800 seems way overkill
[04:57:07] <eric_u> gumstix!
[04:57:13] <toastydeath> apparently the stuff they're using to calculate HSM crap
[04:57:15] <ds2> I would like to see a move away from x86 in general
[04:57:16] <toastydeath> is processor intensive
[04:57:23] <eric_u> HSM?
[04:57:27] <toastydeath> sorry
[04:57:29] <toastydeath> high speed machining
[04:57:51] <ds2> ah... HSM == Home Shop Machinist =)
[04:57:54] <toastydeath> haha
[04:58:00] <toastydeath> CLOSE
[04:58:12] <eric_u> I like x86 because they are cheap and I can get them from the trash
[04:58:34] <ds2> ARM is cheaper.. and soon it will be trash sourceable too
[04:58:42] <toastydeath> i'm not sure they're using x86 in machine contols
[04:58:44] <eric_u> a gumstix costs as much as my AMD 64 w/ 2gb ram
[04:58:51] <toastydeath> unless you are talking about emc specifically
[04:59:00] <ds2> that's cuz you are buying new arms
[04:59:03] <eric_u> most everything is ARM
[04:59:14] <ds2> ARM boards can be had new (as part of a consumer product) for under $25
[04:59:19] <ds2> some even come with a nice little LCD
[04:59:20] <eric_u> ARM is taking over the world
[04:59:24] <ds2> ARM is the world ;)
[04:59:52] <eric_u> I bought some ARMs for $5 each, mattel mp3 players
[04:59:57] <ds2> they are like the replicators on SG
[05:00:04] <ds2> $5?! I paid $10 for mine :(
[05:00:12] <eric_u> I had to buy 5
[05:00:28] <ds2> oh, you got the KB toys deal?
[05:00:35] <eric_u> Overstocks.com
[05:00:41] <toastydeath> hey dudes does anyone know if there are plans to adapt emc to weirder machines
[05:00:49] <toastydeath> or fill out the lathe support more
[05:00:49] <ds2> how much did they take for shipping?
[05:00:53] <eric_u> does it run linux?
[05:00:59] <eric_u> I think shipping was $5
[05:01:01] <toastydeath> ?
[05:01:04] <toastydeath> does what run linux
[05:01:20] <eric_u> the weirder machine you want to run EMC on
[05:01:28] <toastydeath> oh, i'm talking about physical machines
[05:01:33] <ds2> well, I wrote up a page hoping to flesh out the lathe canned stock removal cycles
[05:01:36] <toastydeath> stuff like jig grinders
[05:01:41] <eric_u> how weird do you want?
[05:01:50] <toastydeath> uh, what do you mean
[05:01:59] <ds2> what exactly is a jig grinder? I have seen one in a shop sitting there unused for 5+ years
[05:02:03] <toastydeath> i guess i didn't have a very good question
[05:02:06] <toastydeath> sorry
[05:02:09] <toastydeath> =(
[05:02:10] <ds2> oops... n/m that was a jig borer
[05:02:10] <eric_u> hexapod, robot, etc?
[05:02:24] <toastydeath> jig grinders are like, dremel tools
[05:02:34] <toastydeath> very precice table movements, and two spindles
[05:02:40] <ds2> isn't that a die grinder?
[05:02:42] <ds2> Hmmmm
[05:02:44] <toastydeath> nah
[05:02:53] <toastydeath> one spindle is the "big" spindle and moves around in a circle
[05:03:00] <toastydeath> the other one is a high speed, high accuracy die grinder
[05:03:07] <toastydeath> so you can bore out holes
[05:03:11] <toastydeath> and do countouring
[05:03:16] <ds2> Hmmmm
[05:03:21] <toastydeath> they're pretty expensive
[05:03:28] <eric_u> you might need some extra processors for that
[05:03:36] <toastydeath> FIFTY,
[05:03:38] <toastydeath> clearly.
[05:03:44] <ds2> be cool if EMC can fully control a CMM
[05:03:47] <eric_u> gumstix!
[05:04:01] <toastydeath> that would be very cool
[05:04:20] <toastydeath> i'd still love to see a plugin system
[05:04:20] <eric_u> is that different than a probe on a mill?
[05:04:25] <toastydeath> for machine movement
[05:04:40] <toastydeath> so you can remap g code or make new machine cycles
[05:04:48] <ds2> for movement, a CMM is similar to probing on a mill but it has more math capability
[05:05:06] <ds2> for example if I probe 3 points, it should be able to tell me what's the best fit circle
[05:05:22] <ds2> and I can define a 3D system and have everything else referenced off there
[05:05:55] <eric_u> that's all user-space stuff
[05:06:14] <ds2> yeah
[05:06:24] <toastydeath> the user doesn't know that!
[05:06:26] <ds2> but someone who knows the math needs to do that
[05:06:31] <eric_u> toasty's plugins too
[05:06:41] <toastydeath> yeah man, the plugins would be awesome
[05:07:07] <toastydeath> you could reorganize the g-codes to be fanuc or haas compliant
[05:07:14] <eric_u> hal for g code interpreter
[05:07:19] <toastydeath> ?
[05:07:21] <ds2> personality modules would be very very cool
[05:07:31] <toastydeath> or like, if you were working on HSM modules
[05:07:46] <toastydeath> you could suddenly remap your g2/3 to test
[05:07:49] <toastydeath> then swap back to normal
[05:08:34] <eric_u> its funny that EMC2 is so much more flexible at the hardware interface level than it is at the user-space level
[05:08:42] <toastydeath> hahahah
[05:09:00] <eric_u> should be the other way around, and it used to be before Hal
[05:10:16] <toastydeath> ask
[05:10:17] <toastydeath> oops
[05:10:21] <toastydeath> wrong box, sorry guys
[05:10:32] <eric_u> coulda been worse
[05:10:45] <toastydeath> hahaha yeah
[05:11:09] <toastydeath> i saw a small horizontal jig borer for sale online
[05:11:13] <toastydeath> for like, 5000
[05:11:18] <toastydeath> looked like it was really well kept
[05:11:24] <toastydeath> makes me wish i had space =(
[05:11:25] <ds2> what is a jig borer?
[05:11:40] <toastydeath> horizontal and vertical jig borers are very different
[05:11:49] <toastydeath> but essentially they're for drilling and boring holes very accurately
[05:11:58] <ds2> not really..., they are both unknown, mystery machines =)
[05:12:06] <toastydeath> hahaha
[05:12:06] <eric_u> make your own aircraft landing gear
[05:12:13] <ds2> how are they more accurate then say... a bridge port + boring head?
[05:12:22] <toastydeath> the handwheels are marked in .0001
[05:12:30] <toastydeath> and everything is made to a high standard of precision
[05:12:35] <ds2> ah
[05:12:35] <eric_u> longer travel too
[05:12:41] <toastydeath> usually shorter, actually
[05:12:58] <toastydeath> well, that's not fair of me
[05:13:02] <toastydeath> depends on the model
[05:13:03] <eric_u> how am I going to make my landing gear then?
[05:13:10] <toastydeath> LUCK
[05:13:12] <ds2> does that mean if I replace the stone on a grinder with a boring bar, I have a jig borer?
[05:13:19] <toastydeath> no
[05:13:27] <toastydeath> the jig borer has powerfeeds
[05:13:30] <ds2> it meets all your definitions
[05:13:38] <ds2> hmmm
[05:13:39] <toastydeath> the screws are very precision ground
[05:13:45] <eric_u> we had an old Moore jig borer, and it looked positively victorian
[05:13:46] <toastydeath> everything is scraped
[05:13:56] <toastydeath> moore has some of the most accurate jig borers around
[05:13:56] <eric_u> steampunk machine tools
[05:14:05] <toastydeath> that's what they're known for
[05:14:13] <ds2> but most grinders I see are marked in 0.0001
[05:14:19] <toastydeath> the downfeed is, yes
[05:14:23] <eric_u> but they don't mean it
[05:14:46] <toastydeath> the jig borers seriously mean it
[05:14:51] <ds2> oh
[05:15:00] <toastydeath> it's hard to nail .0001
[05:15:14] <toastydeath> but usually all your holes will come out to around .0002 in all directions
[05:15:17] <toastydeath> including axially
[05:15:17] <ds2> so does this mean I can buy a cheap old jig borer and abuse it by using it as a mill?
[05:15:22] <toastydeath> nope
[05:15:26] <eric_u> I know a guy that got his PhD and went to Moore
[05:15:33] <ds2> why not?
[05:15:41] <toastydeath> some of the bigger jig borers will be able to do milling
[05:15:50] <toastydeath> but the jig borer is much more fragile
[05:16:01] <ds2> ohhhh
[05:16:07] <toastydeath> it's like using an AA or AAA grade surface plate for like, i dunno
[05:16:16] <eric_u> beer pong
[05:16:17] <ds2> so it more like a super super super precision drill press?
[05:16:18] <toastydeath> putting in centerpunch marks
[05:16:21] <toastydeath> yes
[05:16:40] <toastydeath> you can actually use well-kept jig borers as an analog CMM
[05:16:50] <toastydeath> if you know how to pick up edges
[05:17:09] <toastydeath> with dial test indicators
[05:17:37] <ds2> hmmmmm that would seem a bit odd... DTI's usually are good only to 0.0001
[05:17:58] <toastydeath> some are good to 50 mil
[05:18:09] <toastydeath> and to be fair cmms are usually only good to .0002
[05:18:20] <ds2> hmmm
[05:18:38] <toastydeath> horizontal boring mills are even more accurate
[05:18:45] <toastydeath> and will do general milling
[05:19:17] <toastydeath> some models are more rugged than others, but some of the heavy duty ones have 100 hp spindles
[05:19:24] <toastydeath> and 60" facing heads
[05:19:34] <toastydeath> they're very cool machines
[05:19:37] <ds2> speaking of horizontal mills... what's the difference between a horizontal mill and a lathe?
[05:19:46] <toastydeath> the cutter spins on the horizontal
[05:19:48] <ds2> 60"?!
[05:19:50] <toastydeath> the horizontal has an overarm support
[05:19:55] <toastydeath> yes, sixty inches
[05:20:07] <toastydeath> not on small ones, naturally
[05:20:07] <ds2> sure sounds like putting a cutter into the headstock and using the tailstock for support
[05:20:15] <toastydeath> sure
[05:20:24] <toastydeath> but a lot of horizontal mills (NOT boring mills)
[05:20:29] <toastydeath> have automatic table cycle
[05:20:40] <toastydeath> soem have template driven rise and fall
[05:20:42] <eric_u> the difference between horizontal milling centers and lathes is getting blurred
[05:20:49] <toastydeath> huh?
[05:20:55] <toastydeath> no it's not!
[05:21:10] <toastydeath> yes, you can use a lathe for light horizontal milling
[05:21:34] <toastydeath> the overam makes hundred horsepower cuts possible
[05:21:47] <eric_u> not my class of machine
[05:21:49] <toastydeath> and the feeds are also able to push at that load
[05:22:09] <toastydeath> the table cycle is a very nice feature
[05:22:39] <eric_u> do they still sell manual horizontal mills?
[05:22:45] <toastydeath> not brand new, no
[05:22:52] <toastydeath> there are tons of used ones, though
[05:23:09] <toastydeath> they've got a ton of table space
[05:23:20] <toastydeath> the knee on most horizontals weighs more than a whole bridgeport
[05:23:49] <toastydeath> they take longer to set up, though
[05:23:55] <eric_u> the knee on the one I threw away wasn't that impressive, but the machine itself was a hulk
[05:24:04] <ds2> what's a typical DOC on something like that?
[05:24:14] <toastydeath> depends on the cutter
[05:24:18] <toastydeath> but usually over 1"
[05:24:25] <ds2> Hmmmm
[05:24:33] <toastydeath> you try to go right to the final dimension
[05:25:04] <ds2> no need for a finish cut?
[05:25:18] <toastydeath> depends
[05:25:25] <toastydeath> if there's no finish callout, no
[05:25:43] <toastydeath> horizontal machines leave a pretty neat looking finish
[05:25:43] <eric_u> I don't remember that part of the machining lab I took
[05:25:58] <eric_u> flunked the course so I had to do the lab twice
[05:26:08] <toastydeath> we use our horizontals to rough out material for our CNCs
[05:26:28] <eric_u> It's a lot like a tablesaw
[05:26:30] <toastydeath> and sometimes for finish dimensions on big slotting
[05:27:06] <toastydeath> it kind of is!
[05:27:13] <toastydeath> you can use endmills and drills on it, too
[05:27:43] <eric_u> they usually have a taper drive, right?
[05:27:55] <toastydeath> what do you mean by taper drive
[05:28:01] <eric_u> morse taper or the like
[05:28:20] <ds2> isn't a Cat taper more common?
[05:28:24] <toastydeath> NMTB
[05:28:27] <toastydeath> for horzontals
[05:28:31] <toastydeath> NMTB 50
[05:28:41] <toastydeath> you can modify a CAT 50 to fit.
[05:28:48] <eric_u> that's a taper too
[05:28:54] <eric_u> last I checked
[05:29:00] <toastydeath> yeah i didn't know if that's what you meant
[05:29:08] <toastydeath> sorry
[05:29:11] <eric_u> MT came to mind first
[05:29:20] <ds2> cat == nmtb except for the pull stud, right?
[05:29:36] <toastydeath> yeah, cat has the threads inside
[05:29:41] <eric_u> and the flange
[05:29:51] <eric_u> cat has stud
[05:29:52] <toastydeath> nmtb has like, a little tube sticking out of the back
[05:29:56] <toastydeath> where the stud would be
[05:29:56] <ds2> oh right, the drive dogs
[05:30:08] <toastydeath> for the drawbar
[05:30:13] <eric_u> ok
[05:30:48] <eric_u> hope I don't have to use a drawbar
[05:30:52] <toastydeath> ?
[05:31:01] <eric_u> my machine has nmtb 30
[05:31:06] <toastydeath> you will
[05:31:15] <toastydeath> if it's nmtb and not CAT
[05:31:17] <eric_u> it has a nut at the end of the spindle
[05:31:19] <toastydeath> yep
[05:31:23] <toastydeath> that's the drawbar
[05:31:34] <toastydeath> works just like a bridgeport
[05:31:35] <eric_u> the business end, not the ceiling end
[05:31:42] <toastydeath> oh what?
[05:31:51] <toastydeath> are you talking about the arbor lock nut
[05:31:59] <toastydeath> i are confused =(
[05:32:12] <eric_u> no, it has a ring at the bottom that captures the toolholder
[05:32:24] <toastydeath> what kind of machine is it
[05:32:37] <eric_u> BP series II with Erikson tooling
[05:32:40] <toastydeath> oh
[05:32:53] <toastydeath> nah no drawbar
[05:32:58] <toastydeath> i wish every machine had that
[05:33:06] <toastydeath> bridgeports running cat-20 or something
[05:33:13] <toastydeath> whoever came up with r8 needs to be shot
[05:33:25] <eric_u> now that I have all the tooling I need, I'm happy about it
[05:33:39] <eric_u> when I was buying tooling, I wished it had an R-8
[05:33:57] <toastydeath> really?
[05:34:08] <toastydeath> just for availability or what
[05:34:12] <eric_u> still don't have a decent drill chuck
[05:34:21] <eric_u> money
[05:34:40] <ds2> why? what's wrong with R8?
[05:34:46] <eric_u> good NMTB 30 tool shows up on EBAY and there is a bidding war
[05:34:47] <toastydeath> R8 is the devil
[05:34:57] <eric_u> not repeatable
[05:35:02] <toastydeath> it suffers from thermal expansion
[05:35:07] <toastydeath> it has poor holding power
[05:35:10] <toastydeath> poor concentricity
[05:35:30] <ds2> isn't that true of most collets like a 5C,3C, etc?
[05:35:42] <eric_u> isn't that exciting when the endmill keeps getting longer during the cut?
[05:35:43] <toastydeath> the c-series isn't really used as a toolholder
[05:35:48] <toastydeath> eric i hate that so much
[05:35:52] <toastydeath> hatehatehate.
[05:36:02] <ds2> they do make R8 EM holders
[05:36:27] <toastydeath> they also make straight carbide insert endmills with r8/weldon combo shanks
[05:36:36] <toastydeath> those are decent
[05:36:37] <eric_u> they make an R8 holder that holds NMTB 30 toolholders
[05:36:43] <toastydeath> ...
[05:36:46] <toastydeath> you're kidding.
[05:36:52] <eric_u> no, almost bought one
[05:36:56] <toastydeath> hahaha.
[05:37:04] <eric_u> it came with a batch of nice looking NMTB stuff
[05:37:13] <toastydeath> oh
[05:37:22] <toastydeath> i'd mount the r8 to cat30 on my wall.
[05:37:25] <toastydeath> in a frame.
[05:37:34] <eric_u> probably could have resold the R8 part easily
[05:37:36] <toastydeath> er, nmtb
[05:37:47] <ds2> but R8 stuff is dirt cheap
[05:37:53] <toastydeath> it is, which makes it alluring
[05:38:28] <ds2> between the cat40's on the haas and the R8 on the bridge port, I like the R8's better
[05:38:34] <toastydeath> i'd rather have ONE ER collet
[05:38:38] <toastydeath> er, holder
[05:38:40] <eric_u> I couldn't use it though, machine is too tall to get to the drawbar
[05:38:46] <toastydeath> than an entire set of r8 plus chucks plus anything else
[05:39:11] <toastydeath> why do you like r8
[05:39:24] <toastydeath> if it works for you, awesome
[05:39:32] <ds2> can't drop the entire assembly like I did with the cat-40
[05:39:47] <toastydeath> lol
[05:39:49] <toastydeath> needs more ladder!
[05:39:57] <eric_u> yeah, with R8, endmill falls out first, and then the collet
[05:40:05] <ds2> press tool release and I go wading in coolant cuz I forgot to go catch it :(
[05:40:12] <toastydeath> lol
[05:40:22] <ds2> I never had an endmill drop out of a R8 prematurely
[05:40:44] <toastydeath> i've had so many problems with r8 stalling endmills and pulling them out
[05:40:45] <ds2> and when I go hammer the DB, I have my hands ready to catch
[05:41:02] <toastydeath> i just want the cut to go smooth
[05:41:07] <toastydeath> i'll spend ten minutes changing a tool
[05:41:14] <toastydeath> but please, i don't want any problems during the cut
[05:41:25] <ds2> use an R8 EM holder then
[05:41:43] <ds2> I have had the same thing happen using a ER to Cat40
[05:42:00] <eric_u> what's EM?
[05:42:04] <ds2> endmill
[05:42:17] <eric_u> ok
[05:42:32] <ds2> R8 taper, endmill secured with a setscrew on the weldon flat
[05:43:12] <eric_u> accuracy problems
[05:43:30] <toastydeath> r8 just isn't very beefy
[05:44:31] <toastydeath> it has a lot of pros to it
[05:44:44] <toastydeath> but it doesn't fit my style of machining
[05:45:02] <ds2> I suspect your finish cuts are deeper then my roughing cuts ;)
[05:45:10] <toastydeath> hahah
[05:45:21] <toastydeath> maaaaaybe =)
[05:45:30] <toastydeath> i usually leave 10-20 for the finish
[05:45:36] <toastydeath> depending on the material, machine, etc
[05:45:53] <toastydeath> if i know i can make it in one pass, i do that
[05:46:13] <ds2> you make $$$, I don't (at the moment) :(
[05:46:18] <toastydeath> ?
[05:46:26] <toastydeath> i don't have my own machines.
[05:46:28] <toastydeath> i really wish i did.
[05:46:29] <ds2> you get paid so faster, the better
[05:46:34] <toastydeath> hahah
[05:46:37] <toastydeath> yeah
[05:46:48] <ds2> i don't do it commercially; just for hobby use
[05:46:50] <toastydeath> i guess i'm interested by what a machine will do
[05:46:59] <toastydeath> i started learning speed/hard roughing in school
[05:47:01] <toastydeath> before i got paid
[05:47:26] <toastydeath> a lot of stuff to pay attention to
[05:47:47] <ds2> i couldn't bring myself to doing heavy (<0.030) cuts on the mill for some reason
[05:48:08] <toastydeath> why not?
[05:48:09] <ds2> on the lathe, no problem with 0.200 (0.100 DOC)
[05:48:18] <toastydeath> (what lathe do you own?)
[05:48:24] <ds2> donno... maybe on the BP's it made lots of noise
[05:48:40] <ds2> those are not my lathes..., they belong to the local JC
[05:48:44] <toastydeath> i've noticed that on milling machines, especially bridgeports, there's this zone between heavy cut and light cut
[05:48:50] <toastydeath> that the machine shakes like crap and makes a ton of noise
[05:49:18] <ds2> that might be why, i automatically back off when it gets loud
[05:49:52] <toastydeath> what kind of loud
[05:49:59] <ds2> besides, the cutters at the JC were dull enough to have problems machining butter :/
[05:50:04] <toastydeath> hahahahahah
[05:50:24] <toastydeath> you're probably doing the right thing then
[05:50:28] <toastydeath> keeping it light
[05:50:31] <toastydeath> nobody likes cutter failure =(
[05:50:43] <toastydeath> and a dull cutter WILL fail in a heavy cut
[05:50:45] <ds2> even then, the metal would flow off and leave a burr
[05:51:00] <toastydeath> epic
[05:51:04] <toastydeath> no tool grinder?
[05:51:17] <ds2> nope
[05:51:24] <toastydeath> damn
[05:51:32] <toastydeath> my school has one but nobody knows how to use it
[05:51:41] <ds2> they get regrinds donated from the local shops but the students are very good at undoing the grinding =)
[05:51:48] <toastydeath> i've got a book that details it, next semester i'm contemplating resharpening a box of old endmills we've got
[05:51:54] <toastydeath> hahah
[05:52:00] <ds2> rumor has it there is one in the back but the guy who did maintance retired
[05:52:19] <toastydeath> nice
[05:52:31] <ds2> these are the EM that gets runned backwards (thank you bridge port for the labeling) and at the wrong speeds
[05:52:37] <toastydeath> hahaha
[05:52:49] <toastydeath> the classic "i am going to run an endmill backwards and 3500 rpm"
[05:52:50] <ds2> so the drawer has blue and brown edge EM's
[05:52:56] <ds2> yep
[05:53:18] <ds2> the instructor can only catch so many people doing it at once and it is usually when they ask why it isn't cutting =)
[05:53:40] <toastydeath> do you ever get the feeling that it's hopeless
[05:53:56] <toastydeath> that some engineers just won't EVER get it
[05:54:11] <ds2> this is a JC... so lot of them aren't engineers even
[05:54:24] <toastydeath> i just get depressed sometimes
[05:54:53] <toastydeath> i watched one kid spin a ball endmill at like 5 rpm, cranking by hand at fractions of an inch a minute
[05:54:56] <toastydeath> squealing away
[05:55:06] <toastydeath> it was amazing.
[05:55:06] <ds2> hahaahahah
[05:55:22] <ds2> why is he using a ball EM on a manual machine?
[05:55:31] <toastydeath> he needed a radiused groove, apparently
[05:55:42] <ds2> Hmm
[05:55:44] <eric_u> I always figured that noise was bad
[05:55:58] <toastydeath> "vraaawwrrrrrrrr"
[05:56:00] <toastydeath> is a good noise
[05:56:12] <eric_u> tried not to make any nasty sounding noises with the school mills
[05:56:15] <toastydeath> this kid was more of a SQUEEEEEE
[05:56:30] <toastydeath> nah, noises are good
[05:56:32] <ds2> it isn't as bad as when the bridge port gears are not in mesh after a speed change
[05:56:37] <toastydeath> hahahahaha
[05:56:42] <toastydeath> i love the smell of gear teeth in the morning
[05:56:45] <eric_u> never heard that under power
[05:56:51] <eric_u> can imagine
[05:56:57] <toastydeath> vrawr? or gear teeth?
[05:57:03] <eric_u> gear teeth
[05:57:11] <ds2> that's easy to do on a BP gear head
[05:57:28] <eric_u> if it was all that easy, I woulda done it myself
[05:57:34] <ds2> I think it is the low to high change where you need to turn the pully to mesh the gears or it makes loud noises
[05:57:49] <toastydeath> yeah, anyone who has changed a BP low to high
[05:57:52] <toastydeath> has heard it at least once
[05:58:16] <eric_u> I've always just turned the spindle till it meshes
[05:58:38] <toastydeath> it sometimes pops out
[05:58:41] <toastydeath> of the retaining thing
[05:58:53] <ds2> i prefer the variable speed heads when possible ;)
[05:59:34] <eric_u> they should have the same problem with the back gears
[05:59:39] <toastydeath> ?
[05:59:47] <toastydeath> which same problem
[05:59:52] <toastydeath> gear meshing?
[05:59:55] <eric_u> yes
[05:59:57] <ds2> surprisingly, no
[06:00:36] <eric_u> that's why i've never heard it then :)
[06:00:58] <Newbe> Yo guys
[06:01:06] <ds2> the variable speeds have 1 shift thing that goes high neutral low and it won't seat if it is not meshed
[06:01:10] <Newbe> can you help a dumb noob on ubuntu?
[06:01:27] <Newbe> my monitor dont show right refresh
[06:01:30] <ds2> the pully ones have a IN/OUT selector plus a need to turn the pulley to mesh the gears
[06:01:40] <ds2> and there is a order that needs to done in
[06:01:53] <Newbe> Anyone knows the KEY to go to a terminal?
[06:02:07] <eric_u> control alt backspace
[06:02:16] <toastydeath> control alt f2?
[06:02:17] <ds2> or ctrl-alt-2
[06:02:20] <ds2> f2
[06:02:34] <Newbe> ok, thanks!
[06:02:36] <toastydeath> wait
[06:02:40] <toastydeath> alt+f7
[06:02:41] <Newbe> huh?
[06:02:41] <toastydeath> to get back
[06:02:48] <eric_u> ctrl-alt-backspace so much more satisfying
[06:02:49] <toastydeath> you'll see.
[06:03:01] <Newbe> ok tnak ya, i need to reconfigure the X right?
[06:03:12] <toastydeath> yeah
[06:03:20] <Newbe> do you guys know how?
[06:03:20] <toastydeath> you can uh, launch a terminal in X
[06:03:24] <eric_u> yes, I always go online to a modline calculator
[06:03:29] <toastydeath> srsly
[06:03:31] <Newbe> sorry the dumb questions
[06:03:36] <toastydeath> modeline
[06:03:43] <toastydeath> search for x windows modeline calculator
[06:03:47] <toastydeath> or something similar
[06:03:49] <toastydeath> or is it modline?
[06:03:58] <eric_u> probably both by now
[06:04:01] <Newbe> but i want to say F¨&%%%CK M$ !
[06:04:06] <toastydeath> uhm
[06:04:10] <toastydeath> what does that have to do with x windows
[06:04:11] <Newbe> I hate bill haha
[06:04:17] <toastydeath> maybe you should ask this in #ubuntu?
[06:04:26] <Newbe> my vga opened bad
[06:04:31] <Newbe> on 800x600 16
[06:04:35] <Newbe> dunno why
[06:04:36] <eric_u> yes, according to google, it is both
[06:04:42] <Newbe> other distros goes wel
[06:04:43] <toastydeath> ^5
[06:04:53] <toastydeath> newbie start googling.
[06:04:58] <toastydeath> there are plenty of tutorials.
[06:05:02] <Newbe> ubuntu 6.06 live yes
[06:05:04] <toastydeath> or ask in #ubuntu
[06:05:26] <Newbe> xorgconfig will work ?
[06:05:29] <Newbe> sorry again
[06:05:34] <eric_u> I don't hate bill so much as ballmer
[06:05:44] <toastydeath> uh, i have no idea, i've never modified xorg.conf with anything other than a text editor
[06:05:45] <Newbe> hehe
[06:05:47] <eric_u> I just use vi on xorg.conf
[06:06:20] <Newbe> on witch directory, thanks!
[06:06:38] <toastydeath> i'm not sure you've found the proper place to ask this
[06:06:44] <toastydeath> linuxquestions.org
[06:06:51] <Newbe> sudo vi xorg.conf , right ?
[06:06:59] <Newbe> ok thanks again
[06:07:17] <eric_u> where the heck is xorg.conf on ubuntu?
[06:07:31] <toastydeath> should be /etc/X11/xorg.conf
[06:07:33] <toastydeath> or something like that
[06:07:55] <toastydeath> i'd be specific but i don't have a linux box on right now.
[06:07:56] <eric_u> yeah
[06:08:40] <eric_u> that's right, I modified it to get rid of latency
[06:10:44] <toastydeath> re: conversation earlier
[06:10:47] <eric_u> I'm starting to know too many vi commands
[06:10:51] <toastydeath> horizontal jig mills
[06:10:57] <toastydeath> you can bore engines and very long stuff
[06:10:58] <toastydeath> with them.
[06:11:09] <toastydeath> IF YOU WANTED TO.
[06:11:21] <toastydeath> the vi help file is like an encyclopedia
[06:11:25] <toastydeath> OF PAIN
[06:11:30] <toastydeath> yet i keep going back.
[06:11:50] <eric_u> I can't take it, I look for tutorials on the web
[06:12:19] <toastydeath> i tend to agree, but it helps for quick stuff
[06:12:33] <toastydeath> what i need to do is print out the regex thing for vi
[06:12:40] <toastydeath> because i always forget which symbol does what
[06:12:54] <toastydeath> and wind up changing every insance of "the" to inappropriate comments about someone's mother
[06:13:46] <eric_u> I sneezed the other day and deleted everything I had done over the last hour
[06:14:02] <toastydeath> hahahahahahah
[06:14:06] <eric_u> didn't know sneezing was a vi command
[06:14:53] <eric_u> visual mode holds many mysteries
[06:15:03] <toastydeath> what does that thing even do
[06:15:15] <toastydeath> oh
[06:15:18] <toastydeath> the select thing?
[06:15:20] <eric_u> it's amazing, you can do things in blocks
[06:15:33] <eric_u> no if only it would work with a mouse
[06:16:01] <eric_u> now if .....
[06:16:08] <toastydeath> hahaha.
[06:16:12] <toastydeath> the gears... they turn.
[12:21:50] <skunkworks> jepler: any coordinate system touchoff works great.
[12:22:27] <jepler> skunkworks: thank cradek for that feature, I didn't write it
[12:22:46] <skunkworks> cradek: any coordinate system touchoff works great.
[12:22:50] <skunkworks> :)
[12:23:40] <cradek> yay
[12:24:02] <cradek> did you see systems.ngc?
[12:29:35] <skunkworks> hmm - no.
[12:29:43] <skunkworks> * skunkworks goes and looks
[12:34:07] <skunkworks> cradek: you where right about dynamically setting the g55,56 offsets on the fly causing the plot to be funny
[12:34:25] <skunkworks> ;)
[12:35:17] <CIA-8> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: fix python messages on the terminal when loading 0-byte files (these aren't valid g-code files anyway)
[13:13:23] <cradek> skunkworks: if you use tool length offset instead, it'll be right
[13:13:34] <cradek> brb
[13:29:32] <alex_joni> bbl
[13:31:35] <skunkworks> hmmm - I can't wrap my head around it. Looking at your program - you know the first tool length the way I see it. They way I have it set up is I know the distance between the top of the copper clad and the trigger of the switch.
[13:34:30] <jepler> skunkworks: that difference is unrelated to using coordinate system offsets instead of tool length offsets
[13:35:19] <skunkworks> Going to have to look at cradeks program again - I guess ;)
[13:35:38] <skunkworks> * skunkworks has never used tool tables and such
[13:35:46] <jepler> skunkworks: with cradek's system, you Offset to the top of copper with the first tool
[13:36:23] <jepler> skunkworks: to switch to a different tool, you set a tool length offset equal to the difference in length between the first tool and the new tool
[13:36:58] <cradek> I cut a hemisphere with lathe tool shape compensation last night!
[13:37:01] <jepler> this means that if you get a board with a different thickness due to manufacturing differences (for instance), you still cut the right depth
[13:37:48] <jepler> cradek: how big? what material?
[13:38:09] <cradek> 6mm? brass
[13:38:14] <cradek> (I have it here)
[13:38:30] <jepler> ooh
[13:38:35] <jepler> I wanna see
[13:42:51] <skunkworks> ok - I think I am understanding it now.
[13:43:14] <skunkworks> I missed the "start with the first tool loaded, and g54 work offsets set with it"
[13:43:40] <skunkworks> so I would need to touch off with that tool as I do know and set the z offsets
[13:44:11] <skunkworks> cradek: picture? ;)
[13:48:24] <skunkworks> cradek: did you say you changed the eagle script to add the tool change/length operations?
[13:49:01] <cradek> yes, it's in the cvs
[13:49:20] <skunkworks> thanks
[14:21:14] <cnc_engineer123> Hi jepler, I need some help regarding the pwmgen module in emc2
[14:29:43] <jepler> cnc_engineer123: just ask your question -- there may be others here who are willing and able to help you.
[14:31:05] <cnc_engineer123> how can i get high resolution pwm with atleast 5khz frequency? using pwmgen module
[14:33:39] <jepler> you set the frequency using 'setp pwmgen.N.pwm-freq'. You can find the resolution by computing 1/(pwm_freq * base_period)
[14:34:01] <cradek> since the output can change only at the rate of the base period, frequency and resolution of software generated pwm is limited. at 5kHz I think you will have about 10 levels
[14:34:03] <jepler> so you get higher resolution by decreasing base_period
[14:34:18] <cradek> see the pwmgen man page
[14:35:04] <jepler> if you set dither-pwm, the duty cycle will change by +- 1 period to give an average duty cycle that is closer to the requested one.
[14:37:45] <cnc_engineer123> Is there any limitation in emc2 for g-code file size?
[14:37:59] <cradek> no
[14:38:03] <jepler> there's no hard-coded limit
[14:39:01] <jepler> there may be practical limits, particularly when using axis -- the time to draw the preview plot and the memory used to store it is obviously related closely to the g-code file size
[14:40:51] <cnc_engineer123> i am using emc2 installed by ubuntu live CD, i am unable to get resolution greater than 640x480 on any LCD monitor, is there any solution?
[14:44:36] <cnc_engineer123> can you guide us from where we can change the setting to get 100% pwm cycle against 5mm position error Right now we are getting 100% duty cycle against 1mm position error.
[14:45:28] <cnc_engineer123> can you guide us from where we can change the setting to get 100% pwm cycle against 5mm position error? Right now 100% duty cycle is available against 1mm position error.
[14:46:50] <jepler> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FixVideoResolutionHowto
[14:54:12] <jepler> usually emc uses PID to generate a command depending on the error between requested and actual position -- if your system is using PID, then the general answer to your question is "you must tune the PID coefficients"
[14:55:01] <jepler> there is a manpage for the HAL pid module, but it doesn't outline any one method for tuning -- that's a large topic and one I don't understand very well
[14:55:47] <jepler> the pwmgen "scale" parameter also influences how the output of PID is translated into a duty cycle
[14:57:35] <cnc_engineer123> thanks to all, bye bye
[15:12:16] <cnc_engineer123> how much we can reduce the base period in emc, and what is the safe method to reduce maximum base period
[15:15:13] <SWPadnos> the ultimate limit is different for every PC
[15:15:46] <SWPadnos> the sim configs use 50000 ns, which is very slow, so that people demoing from the LiveCD don't get system lockups
[15:16:23] <SWPadnos> most reasonably modern PCs (anything in the 500 MHz or higher range) should be able to go down to 25000 or 20000
[15:16:46] <SWPadnos> from there, you run emc, and try moving the mouse, dragging windows around, etc.
[15:17:14] <SWPadnos> if everything seems smooth and responsive, reduce the base period by 1000 or so and try again
[15:17:51] <SWPadnos> there are more technical guidelines here: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TweakingSoftwareStepGeneration
[15:18:38] <SWPadnos> oh, and to finish the non-technical guide, when the computer seems to bog down a little, go the the next higher base period
[15:20:58] <skunkworks> so - what kind of levels do you get when you don't specify the pwmgen frequency?
[15:21:46] <SWPadnos> software pwmgen?
[15:21:55] <skunkworks> yes
[15:22:12] <jepler> I think the default must be 0Hz (pdm-style)
[15:22:16] <jepler> I didn't check that though
[15:22:46] <SWPadnos> the default is 0
[15:23:08] <SWPadnos> which is PDM mode
[17:55:41] <LawrenceG> hi JymmmEMC
[17:56:02] <skunkworks> LawrenceG: how is the 3 phase drive coming?
[17:56:18] <LawrenceG> kind of stalled at the moment
[17:56:24] <skunkworks> awww
[17:56:34] <JymmmEMC> hi LawrenceG
[17:57:05] <LawrenceG> looking for a cheap 3 phase bridge driver 100v/10amp with current limits!
[17:57:20] <LawrenceG> under $20
[17:57:37] <SWPadnos> a small DSP may be in order
[17:57:48] <SWPadnos> like the Motorola 56E800 series
[17:58:23] <LawrenceG> I have software running in a dsPic up to the ttl level pwm signals.... just need a power stage
[17:58:30] <SWPadnos> ah
[17:59:39] <LawrenceG> I got distracted... had a leaky house issue to deal with and am in the middle of replacing all the windows and siding
[18:00:17] <skunkworks> LawrenceG: http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/diodes.JPG
[18:00:38] <skunkworks> ;)
[18:01:08] <LawrenceG> cool... good for a few amps
[18:01:18] <skunkworks> I think it was 800v 80a
[18:01:33] <skunkworks> going to be the bridge for my servos
[18:01:49] <skunkworks> or it my have been 600v 60a
[18:02:03] <LawrenceG> with all the new washing machines coming out with small 3 phase drives, I am hoping we start to see some surplus bits soon
[18:02:30] <LawrenceG> maybe a visit to Sears with a screwdriver???
[18:02:36] <skunkworks> nice
[18:02:38] <skunkworks> :)
[18:03:26] <JymmmEMC> LawrenceG: sears outlet stores
[18:03:53] <LawrenceG> Ted (tfmacz) bought one of those encoders that digikey handles.... some capacitive sensor.... seems to be working well... very easy to install in motor
[18:05:51] <JymmmEMC> LawrenceG: http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/dpp.do?vertical=Splash&cat=In+Store+Outlet&splash=true&adCell=P2&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes
[18:17:44] <JymmmEMC> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=017&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=270121920935&rd=1&rd=1
[18:29:58] <danielbr> hello guys
[18:31:27] <danielbr> LawrenceG: maybe this can be useful http://www.fairchildsemi.com/offers/discrete/spm/index.html lot of choices good and cheap power modules
[19:15:11] <RichiH> [Global Notice] Hi all, as you may be aware the PDPC had a board meeting today. During this meeting a few changes were made to the structure of the board. David Levin stepped down as president, replacing him is Christel Dahlskjaer (freenode Head of Staff). Phil Stracchino became secretary pro tem, and David 'cdlu' Graham and Richard 'RichiH' Hartmann joined the board! Here's to a prosperous future for freenode and the PDPC!
[19:40:42] <Sapote_reloaded> Sapote_reloaded is now known as Sapote
[23:15:02] <Noob-2007> Hi there
[23:15:35] <Noob-2007> Has anyone the link to callibration, to make my steppers FLY faster ?
[23:15:57] <SWPadnos> flying steppers are dangerous
[23:16:15] <Noob-2007> specially without parachutes lol
[23:16:22] <SWPadnos> he
[23:16:24] <SWPadnos> h
[23:16:27] <SWPadnos> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TweakingSoftwareStepGeneration
[23:17:04] <Noob-2007> that´s it: latency test. THANKS !
[23:17:05] <ds2> tell that to the ones sitting aboard the planes ;)
[23:17:32] <Noob-2007> Absolutely very best than payd software! Fastest support i ever had!
[23:17:54] <skunkworks> spread the word!!!!
[23:17:58] <SWPadnos> EMC2 support flies faster
[23:17:59] <Noob-2007> Thanks fellows!
[23:18:04] <SWPadnos> you're welcome
[23:18:45] <Noob-2007> i got a cool stuf today
[23:18:58] <Noob-2007> i cloned a hole harddisk with EMC
[23:19:20] <Noob-2007> http://www.feyrer.de/g4u/
[23:19:31] <Noob-2007> i hope i had helped someone too
[23:19:34] <Noob-2007> see ya dudes!
[23:20:03] <SWPadnos> see you