#emc | Logs for 2007-05-21

[00:00:39] <SWPadnos> the turnaround time is a real killer for true servo (in the PC)
[00:02:44] <skunkworks> 2 question that seem to be asked is - does emc run galil or the grex
[00:02:56] <SWPadnos> no and no :)
[00:03:15] <skunkworks> Anything that moves the motion controller outside of emc isn't a good match
[00:03:26] <skunkworks> is what I get out of it.
[00:03:48] <SWPadnos> right - EMC is a closed-loop motion controller, unlike anything else that's affordable by hobbyists
[00:04:41] <skunkworks> so - buy cheap hardware and deal with it ;)
[00:04:44] <SWPadnos> steppers only work because EMC fakes itself out with a made-up position value for the loop control (actually, stepgen doesn't use PID any more)
[00:04:45] <SWPadnos> heh
[00:06:48] <SWPadnos> this is in contrast to another popular machine controller, where "closed loop" means "sometimes we can monitor position, and will stop the machine if the following error gets too large"
[00:57:09] <gene__> hey guys!
[00:57:51] <JymmmEMC> ltns
[01:09:21] <Jessxxxx> hi all
[01:10:08] <Jessxxxx> anyone know of a way to export a regular grid of x,y,z data from an acad v14 solid?
[01:10:19] <Jessxxxx> or make contour lines...
[01:10:32] <Jessxxxx> or anything that will let me generate tool paths!
[01:13:34] <Jessxxxx> Jessxxxx is now known as Jess
[01:14:11] <Jess> Jess is now known as Jessxxx
[01:56:32] <bytecolor> autolisp?
[01:56:37] <ds2> so many fun projects... so little time
[04:01:45] <cradek> jmkasunich: spindle control is done, and it works perfectly
[04:02:06] <jmkasunich> yay!
[04:02:27] <cradek> s360 m3!
[04:14:31] <jmkasunich> how accurate is it
[04:14:32] <jmkasunich> ?
[04:14:44] <jmkasunich> or aren't you set up to measure speed yet?
[04:19:47] <cradek> with scale and offset configured, it's about as accurate as the velocity output of the pluto
[04:20:06] <jmkasunich> so the actual opto circuit is pretty good
[04:20:10] <cradek> I took some pictures for you guys, but I can't figure out how to get them off the card
[04:20:16] <cradek> yes it seems great
[04:25:12] <cradek> dangit, I found two usb card reader things, neither one works
[04:26:24] <SWPadnos> that's strange. I've had no USB card reader that didn't work with Ubuntu
[04:26:58] <SWPadnos> I've tried at least 3 readers, plus some cameras (2 or 3 models)
[04:26:58] <cradek> want some?
[04:27:02] <SWPadnos> nope :)
[04:27:27] <cradek> somewhere I have one that works - no idea where
[04:27:56] <SWPadnos> "elsewhere" ;)
[04:27:56] <cradek> these two I found are the kind with a half dozen slots of different styles you don't have any media for, plus one that you do, and none of them work
[04:28:11] <cradek> the ones with one slot seem to work
[04:28:21] <cradek> don't know if I have enough data to declare that's the pattern though
[04:28:26] <SWPadnos> hmm. all the ones I've tried have been multi-slot types
[04:29:02] <SWPadnos> two are SanDisk ImageMate "N-in-one" readers, with N=8 or 12
[04:29:16] <SWPadnos> the other is some internal floppy/card reader thing
[04:29:20] <cradek> maybe these are too old
[04:29:26] <cradek> ... or new
[04:29:57] <SWPadnos> the ones I have are between 2 and 1 year old
[04:30:02] <cradek> one is marked "6IN1 CARD READER"
[04:30:11] <cradek> the other is marked "mini card reader"
[04:30:32] <cradek> if yours have a manufacturer's name who admits to making them, they are probably better
[04:31:00] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:31:09] <cradek> well I'll share the pictures later
[04:31:11] <cradek> goodnight
[04:33:06] <SWPadnos> see you
[04:34:44] <jmkasunich> the one I have I bought about a year ago
[04:35:00] <jmkasunich> mounts in a 3.5" floppy slot, connects to a mobo USB port
[04:35:09] <jmkasunich> (I hate loose things on the desk, they get lost)
[04:35:19] <jmkasunich> works perfectly under dapper
[04:36:09] <jmkasunich> this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820176825
[04:37:00] <jmkasunich> I don't remember if I had to do anything when I installed it
[04:37:07] <jmkasunich> I don't think so, I think it "just works"
[04:37:35] <jmkasunich> I guess cradek is gone...
[04:37:46] <SWPadnos> ok - that's more or less the same as the internal one I have, except that mine has a floppy drive as well
[04:38:07] <SWPadnos> and I'm pretty sure it works, but thinking about it, I'm not positive I've tried to move any data with that one
[04:38:41] <jmkasunich> my camera uses smartmedia, thats the only thing I've used in it
[05:54:22] <Skullworks_PGAB> * Skullworks_PGAB still uses smart media too.
[05:55:12] <Skullworks_PGAB> to cheap to blow cash on a new camera when the old stuff still works
[06:31:24] <alex_jon1> alex_jon1 is now known as alex_joni
[06:55:34] <Phase-Drive> Hello All, I´d like to thank you all for help me to put my CNC working!
[06:55:55] <Phase-Drive> EMC2 is the best CNC software i ever seen
[06:56:09] <Phase-Drive> My Phase drives are working very nice
[06:57:15] <Phase-Drive> As a newbe i always have a problem, today is about zero loosing after milling
[06:58:25] <Phase-Drive> CNC smply looses the G54 zeros after finish a work, it simply don´t goes to that zero, what can it be ?
[07:02:55] <Phase-Drive> Other problem with one machine is annother spooky bug:
[07:03:25] <Phase-Drive> Sending the CNC like G0 X120 Y340 Z10 it runs fast with no problem...
[07:03:55] <Phase-Drive> But Milling it still losses steps, even the G1 is a half of G0
[07:04:56] <Phase-Drive> Engraving just 0.5 mm (not loosing because of milling overtorque. It hapens even on "simulated moves")
[08:08:28] <Jymmm> Yo
[10:16:37] <Skullworks_PGAB> * Skullworks_PGAB off to work another 12hr shift... :(
[10:56:27] <martin_lundstrom> Dallur: Hello, are you around?
[12:50:39] <skunkworks> logger_emc: bookmark
[12:50:39] <skunkworks> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2007-05-21.txt
[12:53:46] <Dallur> Hey Martin, you there ?
[12:57:53] <skunkworks> SWPadnos: what were you talking about "this is in contrast to another popular machine controller, where "closed loop" means "sometimes we can monitor position, and will stop the machine if the following error gets too large"
[12:57:57] <skunkworks> ?
[13:04:14] <martin_lundstrom> Dallur: Yes im here now, how are you?
[13:17:48] <martin_lundstrom> Dallur: I was wondering if theres anything I can do to help you?
[13:51:39] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek/cnc/lathe
[13:54:06] <skunkworks> oh - is that an optical isolator? first picture. Where is the cap in the filter?
[13:54:44] <cradek> yes it's just an opto - the cap is on the original pot (those three fat wires), I forgot to show it
[13:55:11] <cradek> I can't believe it works, considering the simplicity
[13:55:40] <cradek> jmk's design
[13:55:48] <skunkworks> he is the man ;)
[13:56:05] <cradek> it seems like he knows a few things about motor control
[13:56:42] <jepler> so the original pot is still wired in -- you leave it turned to max, or what?
[13:56:49] <cradek> yes
[13:57:03] <jepler> or to look at it another way, you have a spindle override knob
[13:57:04] <cradek> it would be simple to take out, of course
[13:57:09] <cradek> exactly
[13:57:25] <skunkworks> Very nice. Clean
[13:57:39] <cradek> heh, it's very ugly, but it works
[13:59:07] <cradek> yuck, my photos are terrible
[13:59:24] <cradek> I need to make thumbnails too
[13:59:43] <cradek> I forgot to take one of the inside of the driver box - it's quite ... full
[13:59:49] <jepler> it's not a big box
[13:59:53] <cradek> nope
[14:00:07] <cradek> big enough, but just barely
[14:00:18] <jepler> this is the machine you plan to bring to fest, right?
[14:00:22] <cradek> yes
[14:00:55] <cradek> I still need to find a way to cover the exposed electrical stuff (motors)
[14:01:21] <cradek> maybe some kind of rubber and wire ties
[14:01:35] <jepler> what's the voltage across the output part of the optoisolator? Is it logic levels there?
[14:02:16] <cradek> I think the pot originally would swing about 7V
[14:02:59] <cradek> I used this (smallish) box mostly because of the outlets on the back - that made the spindle power really easy
[14:03:25] <cradek> I just changed one of the scsi connectors to a db25 for parport, and wired everything up
[14:09:42] <skunkworks> that is one sexy looking lathe
[14:09:50] <cradek> thanks
[14:09:58] <cradek> it works very nice
[14:10:11] <cradek> I should have cleaned up before taking photos, but it was late
[14:11:22] <cradek> in 6295 you can just see the home/limit switch mounting
[14:11:54] <Dallur> Martin Lundstrom: I checked everything in, no need to help, you should be able to get the latest trunk, compile and run the sample config
[14:11:55] <skunkworks> You need a picture of inside the pluto box
[14:12:06] <cradek> yeah I know...
[14:15:34] <jepler> cradek: the way you've mounted the Z-axis motor takes away a lot of travel -- you don't think you'll ever want to machine something that long?
[14:16:53] <cradek> usually the tailstock is taking up most of that length anyway - it's off right now
[14:19:04] <cradek> the size problems I've had using that lathe over the years were always swing, never length
[14:19:38] <cradek> (and I have a larger lathe in the garage now too)
[14:33:12] <martin_lundstrom> Dallur: Thats great news, Ill dowload the latest cvs
[14:44:28] <jepler> cradek: so is this about what the spindle speed control does? http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/pwm-spindle-control.png
[14:47:51] <cradek> jepler: yes
[14:48:06] <cradek> jepler: in mine, C1 goes to the bottom of R2
[14:48:49] <jepler> what about that resistor on the output side of the optocoupler?
[14:49:07] <cradek> that's base-to-emitter
[14:52:20] <jepler> oh so the optocoupler is actually more like the one in the "4N35" package in eagle?
[14:53:25] <cradek> if that has a base connection, then yes
[14:58:19] <skunkworks> cradek: is direction controll a mechanical switch?
[14:59:01] <cradek> spindle direction?
[14:59:12] <cradek> (it only goes forward)
[14:59:15] <Martin_Lundstrom> Dallur: I get: Unexpected realtime delay: check dmesg for details.
[14:59:15] <Martin_Lundstrom> When I start
[14:59:56] <Martin_Lundstrom> (plasma-sim config)
[15:00:29] <jepler> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TroubleShooting#Unexpected_realtime_delay_check_dmesg_for_details
[15:00:38] <jepler> "Starting in EMC2 version 2.0.4, the number of CPU cycles between invocations of the real-time motion thread is tracked. If you see this message, it usually indicates that some element of your hardware is incompatible with the real-time software. See the next section for more information about possible causes and remedies."
[15:00:51] <Dallur> Martin_Lundstrom: that just means that the BASE_PERIOD is set to high for your machine
[15:01:02] <Martin_Lundstrom> ok
[15:01:10] <Martin_Lundstrom> ill have a look
[15:01:12] <Dallur> Martin_Lundstrom: by reducind the velocity and base_period you should be fine
[15:01:42] <cradek> that's only one possible cause
[15:01:51] <cradek> lots of information on that page jepler linked
[15:01:59] <Martin_Lundstrom> Dallur: The THC control part look nice :)
[15:02:27] <Dallur> Martin_Lundstrom: thanks, if you got any suggestions for adding more controls or layout just give a shout
[15:08:52] <Martin_Lundstrom> Dallur: cool!
[16:09:06] <jepler> cradek: how many Ubuntu CDs did we give away at fest last year?
[16:10:54] <cradek> I think only a couple dozen (before running out)
[16:11:09] <cradek> I think I had 20? and swp made some more
[16:28:23] <cradek> it would be nice to have enough to offer to everyone, instead of only giving them to people who ask
[16:31:42] <Dallur> why don't you guys order some some printed ones ? If you tell them you are going to a fest they will gladly ship you guys 100 cd's or more
[16:32:01] <jepler> because we want our own live CD, not the official one
[16:32:13] <Dallur> jepler: ahh ok ;P
[16:32:21] <jepler> last year we did give away the official ubuntu pressed CDs because we didn't have an installable live CD yet
[16:32:24] <cradek> Dallur: that's what I did last time (except I didn't get enough)
[16:32:42] <Dallur> I see
[16:32:47] <SWPadnos> I bet we could get a bunch of CDs made cheap, with printing
[16:33:02] <Dallur> It would be nice to get printed rw cd's
[16:34:47] <skunkworks> I could setup and burn a bunch here. but they would not have printing on them
[16:35:19] <skunkworks> and you would not get them until friday
[16:35:51] <jepler> thanks for offering -- I don't think the problem is finding someone with a CD-R drive though
[16:36:36] <cradek> alex did some neat CD artwork
[16:36:41] <skunkworks> I remember that.
[16:36:54] <cradek> (we may be too short on time now to even consider this)
[16:36:57] <skunkworks> with the book cover also iirc
[16:39:32] <skunkworks> you guys could setup so that you could install it on peoples keychain drives :)
[16:42:07] <SWPadnos> it seems there are a bunch of places that do 2 week turn
[16:43:04] <jepler> have pricing information? I wouldn't mind throwing some money at this if it made a better impression at fest
[16:43:33] <SWPadnos> yep - I'm seeing ~$2 per disc in some places, others are as low as $1.40 or so
[16:43:38] <SWPadnos> I'm getting another online quote now
[16:43:43] <SWPadnos> this is in 100 qty
[16:44:26] <SWPadnos> wow - 2-day turn for $153
[16:44:32] <jepler> cradek: would you be able to do an updated CD soon?
[16:44:48] <SWPadnos> color printing, paper sleeves, discs provided in bulk (I think we'd need to stuff them ourselves)
[16:45:51] <SWPadnos> only $10 more for jewel cases
[16:46:55] <SWPadnos> I can do a bit more searching for this stuff later today. I'll chip in some $$ also
[16:47:12] <SWPadnos> gotta run to a meeting now, but I'll be back later
[16:47:15] <jepler> OK see you
[16:47:25] <cradek> jepler: yes, anytime
[16:47:37] <cradek> jepler: the closer to fest, the better, I think
[16:47:49] <SWPadnos> with all the packages updated to the latest revs? :)
[16:47:54] <cradek> yes
[16:48:14] <cradek> I think there are 200MB of updates since the current CD
[16:48:23] <SWPadnos> cool. I'd say that one of the 1-day or 2-day places would be good then - it seems to be only $10 or so more than the 2-week place I saw
[16:48:40] <cradek> very nice
[16:48:56] <SWPadnos> I'm looking at http://www.nationwidedisc.com at the moment - they may be the best bet
[16:49:10] <SWPadnos> see you later
[16:50:13] <jepler> of course I don't know why we're trying to do things to attract new users when we all secretly hate the ones we have already.
[16:50:18] <jepler> oops, did I say that?
[16:50:55] <cradek> haha
[16:50:59] <cradek> hey I'm a user
[16:54:29] <cradek> Guidelines for burning your original masters:
[16:54:31] <cradek> * Use the best quality disks you can find (expensive is better)
[16:54:33] <cradek> ugh
[16:54:52] <cradek> they should take a url and an md5sum
[16:55:08] <cradek> * Send two original masters, not one
[16:56:35] <cradek> burning a master on my POS burner, putting it in the mail, and crossing my fingers: not a good strategy
[16:56:59] <jepler> indeed
[16:57:37] <jepler> "... really makes your artwork look it's[sic] best!"
[16:57:51] <cradek> arg
[16:58:10] <cradek> "We do markuting"
[16:59:51] <cradek> I wonder what percentage of the disks you get are actually good
[17:00:24] <jepler> are you a pessimist?
[17:30:31] <ds2> Morning
[17:31:50] <ds2> Would've been cool if EMC had a booth at the Makerfaire
[18:02:56] <alex_joni> hi guys
[18:05:46] <skunkworks> Hi alex. when is the big day?
[18:06:46] <alex_joni> which one?
[18:06:52] <alex_joni> * alex_joni grins
[18:06:59] <alex_joni> I have no idea what your talking about :P
[18:07:40] <alex_joni> thursday and saturday
[18:08:21] <skunkworks> ah - I remember you saying 2 - one church with familly and one with everyone... Or something like that
[18:08:34] <alex_joni> it's a bit different now, but not very much :)
[18:08:58] <alex_joni> thursday is the official ceremony (the legal one)
[18:09:03] <alex_joni> and saturday is the church thing
[18:09:41] <skunkworks> well - good luck. don't forget the rings.. or is that your best mans job?
[18:10:19] <alex_joni> heh
[19:18:59] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSfto9g5z2g
[19:19:04] <skunkworks> did anyone see that?
[19:24:11] <JymmmEMC> * JymmmEMC dont do youtube
[19:24:48] <skunkworks> even for a 4 axis router running emc+axis?
[19:25:00] <alex_joni> skunkworks: I saw it..
[19:25:27] <JymmmEMC> Doesn't seem like anyone is impressed.
[19:25:32] <alex_joni> it's nice
[19:25:50] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: Yeah yeah, I've seen the crap you've posted
[19:26:00] <JymmmEMC> * JymmmEMC dont do youtube
[19:33:34] <JymmmEMC> I'm debating on what to use for the control voltage on my REAL ESTOP.... 12V or 120V
[19:33:44] <alex_joni> 24V usually
[19:34:08] <alex_joni> 120V is a bit scary for safety things
[19:34:21] <JymmmEMC> Yeah, 12V seems safer
[19:35:14] <JymmmEMC> The relay I have I THOUGHT was DPDT, but it's really DPST
[19:36:35] <JymmmEMC> Hmmm, I have a SSR with no ratings on it for the load. could use it for really low control voltage
[19:37:18] <NightHawk_Eng> hi folks. a quick question : which combinaition of vanilla kernel and rtai do you use?
[19:37:40] <jepler> ii linux-image-2.6.12-magma cjr12 Linux kernel binary image for version 2.6.12-magma.
[19:37:43] <jepler> ii rtai-modules-2.6.12-magma 3.3-2+cjr12 rtai modules for Linux (kernel 2.6.12-magma).
[19:37:50] <jepler> (that's ubuntu breezy; it's 2.6.15 on ubuntu dapper)
[19:37:50] <JymmmEMC> I found some nice octal socketed relays NEW,
[19:38:10] <alex_joni> I'm using 2.6.17-rtai 3.5 now
[19:38:43] <NightHawk_Eng> I think that all my problems comes for 2.6.20 kernel
[19:38:53] <NightHawk_Eng> I'll try 2.6.17 + 3.5 Vulcano
[19:40:10] <NightHawk_Eng> do you know if bootsplash can couse problems?
[19:40:18] <alex_joni> not really
[19:40:30] <alex_joni> the only thing I've seen that sometimes a borken bootsplash stays black
[19:40:36] <alex_joni> but after that it should run
[19:40:56] <JymmmEMC> nosplash verbose vga=791
[19:41:58] <JymmmEMC> you could at that to your grub menu
[19:42:09] <JymmmEMC> s/at/add/
[19:42:38] <JymmmEMC> /boot/grub/menu.lst iirc
[19:42:41] <NightHawk_Eng> ok folks.... let's go to terminal!
[19:42:55] <NightHawk_Eng> I'll tell you if it'll works
[19:47:29] <mschuhmacher> JymmmEMC: for a real E-Stop you should use safety relays
[19:48:28] <mschuhmacher> like this http://www.pilz.com/english/products/safety/safety_relay/e_stop_u_2.htm#PNOZ%20e1p
[19:54:48] <alex_joni> hey Rugludallur
[19:54:54] <alex_joni> Martin_Lundstrom was looking for you
[19:55:07] <Rugludallur> alex_joni: hey, thanks, lets see if he is still around
[19:56:06] <NightHawk_Eng> no bootsplash for 2.6.17 -> let's go to the
[20:02:21] <JymmmEMC> mschuhmacher: what makes those different than using a relay in a self latching config?
[20:28:55] <mschuhmacher> JymmmEMC: The relay conforms to the following safety criteria:
[20:28:56] <mschuhmacher> - The circuit is redundant with built-in self-monitoring.
[20:28:58] <mschuhmacher> - The safety function remains effective in the case of a component failure.
[20:28:59] <mschuhmacher> - The correct opening and closing of the safety function relays is tested automatically in each on-off cycle.
[20:30:28] <Ito-Brazil> Hello All, i am the guy that was asking ya about phase drives...
[20:30:34] <Ito-Brazil> I have a video now
[20:30:48] <alex_joni> good
[20:30:52] <Ito-Brazil> http://video.google.com/videouploadfinished?docid=5506285167473738661&cid=edd1e9329939f4df
[20:31:14] <Ito-Brazil> And i like to thank you all, specially to you Alex_Joni !
[20:31:28] <alex_joni> Ito-Brazil: no problem.. glad it works
[20:31:31] <Ito-Brazil> This software is simply amazing!
[20:32:35] <Ito-Brazil> There is many people using thos phase-drives heare in Brazil, i´d like to help him to put EMC2 to work
[20:32:38] <skunkworks> Nice - is the second pass burning - or cutting thru to a differnt color layer?
[20:32:42] <alex_joni> that's really cute
[20:32:57] <alex_joni> I thought it's a plotter
[20:32:58] <alex_joni> ?
[20:32:59] <Ito-Brazil> How can i help? I can send the ini and hal, etc...files
[20:33:05] <Ito-Brazil> nope it´s a CNC machine
[20:33:11] <Ito-Brazil> it´s just a test
[20:34:05] <anonimasu> Ito-Brazil: nice fast machine :
[20:34:08] <anonimasu> :)
[20:34:16] <Ito-Brazil> We developed heare a "turbo" to make Phase-drives work like chopper drives
[20:34:46] <Ito-Brazil> and we´d like to share it too, it´s already on CreativeCommons
[20:35:17] <alex_joni> Ito-Brazil: got a name? I'd like to add it to the page with emc2 videos
[20:35:28] <alex_joni> or should I use Ito-Brazil ?
[20:35:54] <Ito-Brazil> TUX was engraved on G1 F1000, but i can go on F2400 ( mm )
[20:36:14] <anonimasu> how big is your piece?
[20:36:29] <Ito-Brazil> You can put Ito-Brazil, we have a tem, called N-Labs
[20:36:32] <alex_joni> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Videos
[20:36:38] <Ito-Brazil> this tux has 50 x 50 mm
[20:36:48] <anonimasu> ah
[20:36:53] <anonimasu> that explains why it looks damn fast ;)
[20:37:08] <Ito-Brazil> hehe
[20:37:14] <alex_joni> still very nice
[20:37:19] <anonimasu> yep
[20:37:21] <Ito-Brazil> Thanks!
[20:38:11] <Ito-Brazil> I will make other TUX, bigger then. And faster too. But EMC2 made me fear on first moves hahaha
[20:38:21] <NightHawk_Eng> alex_joni : can I ask you to test the calibrate procedure under /usr/realtime/calibration ?
[20:38:52] <Ito-Brazil> you know, i was using a TurboCNC (kids toy software hahaha)
[20:39:05] <NightHawk_Eng> I obtain a segmentation fault
[20:39:06] <anonimasu> Ito-Brazil: agreed! :)
[20:39:07] <mschuhmacher> JymmmEMC: and Positive-guided relay outputs
[20:39:10] <NightHawk_Eng> :(
[20:39:58] <alex_joni> NightHawk_Eng: not tonight.. I'm off to bed
[20:40:12] <Ito-Brazil> well, i calibrated EMC2 bumb style... I transfered the Hz on tcnc calculating to EMC2 style
[20:40:31] <Ito-Brazil> and then slowering and fastening on screen
[20:40:38] <NightHawk_Eng> ok.
[20:41:16] <Ito-Brazil> I didn´t knew about calibration...
[20:41:38] <Ito-Brazil> where do i can do it? maybe the CNC can be better
[20:42:09] <anonimasu> in the wiki
[20:42:33] <anonimasu> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/
[20:44:25] <Ito-Brazil> Oke, i have to go tunning the CNC, i am the brand new EMC2 addicted!!!!
[20:44:34] <skunkworks> :)
[20:44:38] <Ito-Brazil> Thanks Thanks Thanks again!
[20:48:36] <anonimasu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-Qc6RcbsRM&mode=related&search=
[20:48:39] <anonimasu> holy crap.
[20:48:42] <anonimasu> that dosent sound good
[20:54:29] <alex_joni> heh
[20:55:53] <alex_joni> hahaha, rapid tool changer
[20:55:57] <alex_joni> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmQPOtQcLA8
[20:56:35] <anonimasu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU32Q6QXtWQ&mode=related&search=
[20:56:37] <anonimasu> wow:D
[20:57:16] <alex_joni> holy crap
[20:57:40] <anonimasu> that taig shot sounds pretty bad too
[20:59:06] <ds2> taig toolchanger?!
[20:59:50] <anonimasu> yeah
[21:00:09] <ds2> Ineed an avi version of it.. flash is forbidden on all my browsers
[21:00:41] <anonimasu> why?
[21:00:51] <ds2> it is a tool of the evil ad pushers
[21:01:15] <anonimasu> and what do you call java?
[21:01:28] <ds2> java is forbidden too
[21:01:50] <ds2> I do not have enough processing power to freely give up
[21:01:58] <ds2> (i use a treo a lot)
[21:03:00] <anonimasu> brb
[21:09:47] <JymmmEMC> mschuhmacher: Yeah, I read the description, but that didn't answer my question.
[21:10:38] <alex_joni> you mean why a redundant circuit is better than a single one?
[21:10:58] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: what makes those different than using a relay in a self latching config?
[21:11:51] <alex_joni> I don't understand what you're asking
[21:12:38] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: he gave a link to "safety relays", what's the differnce between using those and a relay in a self-latching configuration?
[21:13:25] <alex_joni> they are safer?
[21:13:34] <JymmmEMC> Why are they safer?
[21:13:38] <alex_joni> a self-latching relay can easily fail
[21:13:44] <alex_joni> contacts getting stuck
[21:13:48] <JymmmEMC> any component can fail.
[21:13:52] <alex_joni> yes
[21:14:00] <alex_joni> that's why they make redundand safety relays
[21:14:02] <anonimasu> JymmmEMC: Safety relays are _SAFETY_ rated..
[21:14:03] <alex_joni> with supervision
[21:14:14] <anonimasu> JymmmEMC: there's a good reason for the price..
[21:14:17] <JymmmEMC> define "safety rated"
[21:14:23] <Ito-Brazil> Hello ALL, i´m back. Sorry but i closed the java window without get the "phase-drive-tunning" link
[21:14:26] <JymmmEMC> what makes them so different?
[21:14:29] <alex_joni> bet your arm on it
[21:14:38] <Ito-Brazil> is that callibrating ?
[21:14:42] <anonimasu> you can bet your life on a safety relay.. ;)
[21:14:47] <alex_joni> Ito-Brazil: check wiki.linuxcnc.org
[21:14:49] <JymmmEMC> why can I?
[21:14:53] <anonimasu> I wouldnt though, but if it comes down to it..
[21:15:01] <JymmmEMC> what anonimasu said.
[21:15:13] <Ito-Brazil> oke, WIKI, but do i search for calibrating ?
[21:15:46] <anonimasu> JymmmEMC: if a safety relay for estop fails you die.
[21:15:50] <anonimasu> or your machine breaks..
[21:15:55] <alex_joni> Ito-Brazil: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TweakingSoftwareStepGeneration
[21:15:59] <anonimasu> or your tools come flying..
[21:16:07] <anonimasu> err safety relay/relay/whatever
[21:16:12] <anonimasu> if your button dosent work..
[21:16:24] <JymmmEMC> anonimasu: But what I'm trying to determine is what is the main difference.
[21:16:30] <alex_joni> JymmmEMC: I guess it's a matter of what you want to do
[21:16:39] <alex_joni> there are safety regulations which tell you what you must use..
[21:16:48] <ds2> take axe and use it on power cord
[21:16:49] <alex_joni> your choice to obey or not
[21:16:55] <Ito-Brazil> Oke, Thanks again !!!!
[21:17:04] <anonimasu> JymmmEMC: it's that safety relays are built a bit differently..
[21:17:04] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: That doesn't answer my question
[21:17:05] <anonimasu> I guess.
[21:17:06] <alex_joni> Ito-Brazil: it's not directly related to phase
[21:17:15] <alex_joni> JymmmEMC: I still don't understand your question
[21:17:17] <JymmmEMC> what is the difference?
[21:17:19] <Ito-Brazil> oke
[21:17:29] <alex_joni> between one relay and a bunch of them inside a box?
[21:17:35] <JymmmEMC> what makes a safety relay a "safety relay"?
[21:17:49] <anonimasu> the design and the certifications they conform to..
[21:18:04] <SWPadnos> for what it's worth, I've never been able to find out the technical diffrence between a "normal" contactor/relay and a "safety relay"
[21:18:34] <ds2> maybe it is a materials/manufacturing certification/traceability thing?
[21:18:34] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: if nothing else the symbols on the box ;)
[21:18:37] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:18:45] <SWPadnos> yeah - I really like that TuV one :)
[21:18:51] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: TY, that's what I was looking for. If it's just specs, say industrial grade -vs- medial or life-safety grade. That I can understand.
[21:19:06] <mschuhmacher> JymmmEMC: a relay in a self latching config is not safe, e.g. the contacts of the relay could melt together
[21:19:10] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure it is, but I haven't found out the physical differences
[21:19:20] <JymmmEMC> mschuhmacher: Yes, I know.
[21:19:48] <SWPadnos> there may be either contact coatings or some other things to prevent the contacts fusing or arcing too badly
[21:22:08] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: yep
[21:22:22] <anonimasu> http://www.pilz.com/downloads/PNOZ_X_Application_Manual_GB.pdf
[21:22:25] <anonimasu> JymmmEMC: have a read ^_^
[21:28:12] <JymmmEMC> The safety relay PNOZ X1P (K1) is tested
[21:28:12] <JymmmEMC> in each on/off cycle. The E-STOP
[21:28:12] <JymmmEMC> pushbutton S1 must be operated at
[21:28:12] <JymmmEMC> appropriate intervals to perform a
[21:28:12] <JymmmEMC> function test. This must be recorded in
[21:28:12] <JymmmEMC> the plant’s operating manual
[21:28:14] <JymmmEMC> (organisational measure). An E-STOP is
[21:28:16] <JymmmEMC> not a primary safety measure, just a
[21:28:19] <JymmmEMC> precautionary measure for emergencies
[21:28:21] <JymmmEMC> (EN 292-2). A start-up test is therefore
[21:28:23] <JymmmEMC> not required.
[21:28:25] <JymmmEMC> As the PNOZ X1P cannot be tested
[21:28:27] <JymmmEMC> automatically, a second shutdown route
[21:28:29] <JymmmEMC> is required (e.g. via a main switch or a
[21:28:30] <JymmmEMC> master contactor).
[22:04:53] <mschuhmacher> JymmmEMC: the main difference is whatever you make as a safety device if may be safe or not, but if the PNOZ fails, it prevents you (and your electrician) from prosecution of e.g. involuntary manslaughter. these devices are considered as safe by law, and if your machine can harm people you are advised to use it except you are the only user.
[22:05:35] <ds2> so "safety rated" == get out of jail free card?
[22:07:47] <mschuhmacher> If it is properly installed and within the specifications of the manufacturer
[22:08:34] <SWPadnos> ok - by that definition, "safety rated" means you can't automatically be considered culpable if there's an accident
[22:09:15] <SWPadnos> but it may still be your fault (as determined by law ...) if you e.g. had sometihng there to bypass the safety systems ...
[22:09:25] <SWPadnos> err - s/law/the courts/
[22:10:16] <mschuhmacher> many old safety devices are no more considered as safe by law
[22:12:05] <mschuhmacher> if you replace the control unit by a new you have to replace them
[22:18:27] <mschuhmacher> for a new machine or a retrofit you will have to use the newest safety technology, anyway no sane electrician would install you an estop without safety-rated relays.
[22:29:47] <sudo_maddash> I'm having trouble understanding the way NML works, particularly in the case of e-stops. why do the modules in src/emc/usr_intf fire off "EMC_AUX_ESTOP_ON" instead of "EMC_AUX_ESTOP_ON"?
[22:32:32] <sudo_maddash> is that a dumb question?
[22:41:16] <mschuhmacher> sudo_maddash: "EMC_AUX_ESTOP_ON"=="EMC_AUX_ESTOP_ON"
[23:04:21] <JymmmEMC> logger_emc: bookmark
[23:04:21] <JymmmEMC> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2007-05-21.txt
[23:04:32] <JymmmEMC> logger_emc: bookmark
[23:04:32] <JymmmEMC> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2007-05-21.txt
[23:04:37] <JymmmEMC> It lies! LOL
[23:05:18] <ds2> any comments on how bad hardwood plywood is for machine structure in terms of short term (1-2 hour) stability?
[23:05:53] <JymmmEMC> ds2: as the frame of the machine? As the bench it's sitting on? As the material being machined?
[23:05:59] <ds2> frame of the machine
[23:06:13] <JymmmEMC> how thick and what kind of load?
[23:06:21] <ds2> thinking of building up a "low rigidity" machine to experiment with stuff like probing and laser marking
[23:06:27] <ds2> probally 3/4" or 5/8" ply
[23:06:37] <ds2> virtually no load other then the weight of it self
[23:07:11] <JymmmEMC> ds2: Hit southern lumber, they have IPE on the backside of the mill arounf $2.50 lin ft
[23:07:24] <JymmmEMC> 1" x 6" actual dimension
[23:07:25] <ds2> maybe a gantry type setup with 1" rounds as way guides
[23:07:38] <JymmmEMC> HEAVY HEAVY shit - extremely dense.
[23:07:51] <ds2> JymmmEMC: isn't that worse for stability? ply at least has the crossed grain to give some uniformity
[23:08:14] <JymmmEMC> Yo haven't seen this stuff =) whats the longest piece?
[23:08:24] <ds2> 1x6 @ 2.5lf is good... is this on the side where the redwood stuff are?
[23:08:33] <JymmmEMC> $3.50
[23:08:45] <JymmmEMC> yeah
[23:08:54] <ds2> thinking of something that will accomodate peice of paper; so maybe 14" x 12" footprint
[23:08:55] <JymmmEMC> 2nd isle past the mill
[23:09:16] <JymmmEMC> Oh shit, np.... this stuff is like 4-6lbs per foot
[23:09:18] <ds2> will have to go there, if anything to make a bench with that stuff =)
[23:09:33] <JymmmEMC> its rot and incest resistant
[23:09:50] <cradek> what an unfortunate typo
[23:10:01] <ds2> i remember ipe from those home improvement shows; used a lot on porches
[23:10:04] <JymmmEMC> Stay away from the sepaially (sp), it's very fiberous
[23:10:10] <ds2> cradek: trying to overlook that one ;)
[23:10:16] <JymmmEMC> insect
[23:10:17] <cradek> good idea
[23:10:35] <JymmmEMC> Incest is the best, forget the rest =)
[23:11:06] <ds2> so nothing really bad with a tiny gantry setup for an experimental, no load machine?
[23:11:09] <JymmmEMC> Speaking of which.... Yo Les come back and visit us and tell us more hill folks storys!!!
[23:11:33] <ds2> tiny, wooden supported and steel ways, setup
[23:11:49] <JymmmEMC> ds2: Yeah, I say you might even get away with 3' if you build it right.
[23:12:11] <JymmmEMC> ds2: PRE-DRILL ALL HOLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[23:12:30] <ds2> okay
[23:12:41] <ds2> (esp. nice since I have some spare ply)
[23:13:27] <ds2> think 1/4-20 would be okay as lead screws for something that small?
[23:13:42] <JymmmEMC> all thread?
[23:14:04] <JymmmEMC> like home depot special?
[23:14:04] <ds2> worse, this from the electrical section... 8ft peices for like $2
[23:14:12] <ds2> but yeah, HD special
[23:14:45] <JymmmEMC> well, I'd smooth out the galvinize on it, or go SS maybe even 10-32 if you want detail
[23:15:14] <ds2> no cheap source of 10-32 or SS stuff
[23:15:33] <JymmmEMC> Hd has 1,2,4 ft 10-32
[23:15:40] <ds2> where?
[23:15:54] <JymmmEMC> Hardware isle, next to angle iron
[23:15:58] <ds2> as in where in the store do they keep that
[23:16:04] <JymmmEMC> Hardware isle, next to angle iron
[23:16:05] <ds2> never seen anything that thin
[23:16:11] <JymmmEMC> nuts bolts, etc
[23:16:24] <JymmmEMC> they even have brass too
[23:16:49] <ds2> which store have you personally seen it at?
[23:17:03] <ds2> closests I know of is the 6" section at lowes in the drawers
[23:17:17] <JymmmEMC> campbell, hillsdale, sunnyvale, capital
[23:17:23] <ds2> I can use a source of 10-32 as clamping studs
[23:18:12] <JymmmEMC> I know for sure they have 12" pieces the other lengths might be per store
[23:18:41] <ds2> 12" I can believe... but the 4ft...
[23:18:50] <ds2> will look for them next time i am there
[23:24:20] <JymmmEMC> look for tags in the iron rack.... many times they're out of stock.
[23:25:38] <ds2> I usually go by there to look for clearance stock
[23:36:07] <JymmmEMC> I hate HD, just an necessary evil
[23:36:21] <JymmmEMC> I dont mind och, but not like they used to be
[23:36:24] <JymmmEMC> osh
[23:36:59] <ds2> *nod*
[23:37:13] <ds2> I prefer Ace thesedays
[23:37:30] <ds2> most seem to carry the Hanson taps and dies
[23:37:50] <JymmmEMC> I REALLY REALLY miss a good hardware store. There was a great on e in SoCal - even stocked horseshoe nails
[23:38:49] <JymmmEMC> I had to go to MrMetric just to get a set screw - nobody carrys them - not hd lowes or osh
[23:39:38] <JymmmEMC> BTW MrMetric doesn't to walk-in sales. all must be pre-ordered
[23:40:12] <ds2> oh? I did a walkin sale the last I needed stuff.. must be new policy
[23:40:36] <JymmmEMC> they have like 8 signs hung all over the place in the tiny lobby
[23:41:06] <JymmmEMC> as I only needed one, they gave it to me as a sample.
[23:41:10] <JymmmEMC> SS too
[23:41:22] <ds2> *shrug* guy didn't seem to care, was happen to sell me a M6 threaded road
[23:42:02] <JymmmEMC> maybe some are just abusing it.... I need 14 of these and 23 of those, etc
[23:43:24] <ds2> Olander is more convenient
[23:43:31] <JymmmEMC> where are they?
[23:43:41] <JymmmEMC> on san carlos?
[23:43:43] <ds2> Sunnyvale
[23:43:46] <ds2> off Central
[23:44:00] <JymmmEMC> where?
[23:44:19] <JymmmEMC> you mean the rock place?
[23:44:24] <ds2> 144 Commerical Street
[23:44:28] <ds2> Sunnyvale, 94086
[23:44:41] <JymmmEMC> you mean the rock place?
[23:44:51] <ds2> donno what you mean by rock place
[23:45:05] <JymmmEMC> theres a place off lawrences that sell rocks
[23:45:16] <a-l-p-h-a_> JymmmEMC,!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[23:45:18] <ds2> no, this is further west, beyond NSC
[23:45:31] <JymmmEMC> ah
[23:45:35] <a-l-p-h-a_> JymmmEMC, still play with php?
[23:45:45] <JymmmEMC> yep
[23:45:49] <ds2> but they are the best chance of finding an odd fastener
[23:45:53] <a-l-p-h-a_> JymmmEMC, have you checked out any frameworks?
[23:46:01] <JymmmEMC> nope
[23:46:10] <a-l-p-h-a_> JymmmEMC, check out www.symfony-project.com kick ass!
[23:46:12] <JymmmEMC> i dont do OOP
[23:46:17] <CIA-8> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py:
[23:46:17] <CIA-8> -defaultextension makes it impossible to open files with no
[23:46:17] <CIA-8> extension. By making sure .ngc comes first in the list, it is
[23:46:17] <CIA-8> still appended ("smartly", according to the docs) when you type a
[23:46:17] <CIA-8> filename without extension and it doesn't exist that way.
[23:46:32] <a-l-p-h-a_> just procedural programming? :(