#emc | Logs for 2007-04-26

[00:01:41] <jepler> Jymmm: yes, that's how it should be -- dim if you haven't loaded a file, available if you have loaded a file
[00:01:44] <Jymmm> Quiet in here.... wth, ppl spending time eating with familys?! the nerve!!!!
[00:02:02] <jepler> I think the feature is new in emc 2.1.x, are you using an older version?
[00:02:09] <Jymmm> jepler: Ok, maybe I just wans't paying attention.
[00:02:15] <chr0n1c> http://www.brielcomputers.com/replica1.html
[00:02:19] <chr0n1c> i was checking that out
[00:02:47] <Jymmm> jepler: I'm taking the pc to work tonight, so I'll look more then
[00:03:09] <Jymmm> going to try to removes extras, like CUPS, bluetooth, etc
[00:03:46] <chr0n1c> can i remove rsync?
[00:03:53] <chr0n1c> i did the same thing the other day
[00:03:59] <chr0n1c> but i didn't know what was too much
[00:04:02] <chr0n1c> so i stopped
[00:04:21] <Jymmm> rsynce you can unless you are syncing data between two machines
[00:04:31] <chr0n1c> nope...
[00:04:38] <chr0n1c> what about the hp printing stuff?
[00:04:46] <chr0n1c> i thought that would be safe but left it
[00:04:53] <Jymmm> if you NEVER plan on printing from that machine
[00:04:57] <chr0n1c> never
[00:05:03] <Jymmm> even if the printer is on another machine
[00:05:15] <chr0n1c> i could stil print to a file?
[00:05:18] <chr0n1c> without it?
[00:05:36] <chr0n1c> if so i can always print on the winders box if an emergency
[00:05:39] <Jymmm> I have no sound card, but have all these utilities that are sound related.
[00:05:41] <jepler> Jymmm: here's where you find the properties option, and what the window looks like: http://emergent.unpy.net/index.cgi-files/sandbox/prop.png
[00:06:15] <Jymmm> jepler: Yeah, I got that AFTER I loaded a file =)
[00:06:34] <Jymmm> jepler: oh, what WM are you using?
[00:07:01] <jepler> Jymmm: icewm
[00:07:17] <Jymmm> can I got o that from ubuntu 6.06 ?
[00:07:53] <jepler> yes, but I'm using a custom theme so yours wouldn't look quite like that
[00:08:00] <jepler> (I think they have another theme that looks a bit like win9x though)
[00:08:17] <Jymmm> That's cool, just anything to get a lil better performance out of this P3 600
[00:08:27] <chr0n1c> turn off menu shading and stuff
[00:08:30] <chr0n1c> if it's on
[00:08:41] <Jymmm> will work on it tonight
[00:09:41] <Jymmm> Gawd I wish I could use the dual cpu system I have.... it has 2gb ram on it.
[00:09:54] <Jymmm> even if EMC doesn'ttake advantage of the SMP
[00:13:08] <chr0n1c> it won't run ubuntu?
[00:15:15] <Jymmmmmm> Yeah, it will. But I heard you have to use a special RT kernel
[00:16:21] <jepler> an SMP machine can still boot a single-processor kernel just fine
[00:16:38] <jepler> after all, how else would you still run all your windows 3.1 applications or your DOS DOOM.EXE?
[00:16:55] <Jymmmmmm> On my 486SX25
[00:17:14] <chr0n1c> i run them on my xbox
[00:17:22] <chr0n1c> HA!
[00:17:29] <Jymmmmmm> And yes, I REALLY do have a working 486SX25 box.
[00:17:39] <chr0n1c> i had the first computer i ever touched
[00:17:45] <chr0n1c> a 8086
[00:17:59] <chr0n1c> 30 mb hd 4 mb ram
[00:18:06] <Jymmmmmm> I finally gave up my 1st XT with dual 5.2%" floppies
[00:18:09] <chr0n1c> i jsut threw it away a few months ago
[00:18:11] <chr0n1c> still worked!
[00:18:24] <chr0n1c> yeah this one had 2 5.25's
[00:18:38] <chr0n1c> i kept the monitor
[00:18:40] <Jymmmmmm> jepler ok, so I can run emc just fine, but it won't take advantage of the dual cpus's is what you're saying?
[00:18:45] <chr0n1c> but tossed the rest
[00:23:07] <chr0n1c> ...cya folks
[00:24:27] <jepler> Jymmmmmm: right
[00:25:00] <Jymmmmmm> jepler Ok, cool. I might just try the other machien I have and see if the latency is about the same.
[00:29:17] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/frntcontroller.JPG
[00:29:41] <skunkworks> that is a windows 3.1 running on a 386 probably sx.
[00:29:41] <Jymmmmmm> new toy?
[00:29:43] <skunkworks> still runns
[00:30:56] <Jymmmmmm> heh, cool
[00:31:21] <Jymmmmmm> My 486 is actually a router/firewall
[00:31:24] <skunkworks> I think it has 2mb of memory iirc - just enough to run in (don't remember what it is called) something like protected maybe. So we could do task swapping and have the programs still running in the background
[00:31:56] <Jymmmmmm> running under DOS
[00:32:00] <Jymmmmmm> 6.22
[00:32:59] <Jymmmmmm> skunkworks what is the blue machine?
[00:34:19] <skunkworks> it is an nc controller - built in the early 70s
[00:34:30] <Jymmmmmm> ah
[00:34:31] <skunkworks> all descrete componats
[00:34:49] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/rearcontrller.JPG
[00:35:09] <Jymmmmmm> yeow!
[00:35:32] <skunkworks> ran this http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/DSCCurrent.JPG
[00:35:49] <Jymmmmmm> ah ok
[00:36:08] <skunkworks> a good emc project ;)
[00:36:39] <Jymmmmmm> ya think?! lol
[03:06:10] <jmkasunich> Intel's heatsinkink mounting scares me....
[03:06:11] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/mobo-bent.jpg
[03:06:42] <skunkworks> yep - is that one where it clips it on 4 corners?
[03:06:57] <jmkasunich> yes
[03:07:25] <jmkasunich> you can see the clips in the pic
[03:08:52] <skunkworks> I have had a bunch of them fail - the plastic mounted on the motherboard broke.
[03:09:07] <jmkasunich> I really don't like it
[03:09:50] <jmkasunich> I'm tempted to take a piece of 1/4" aluminum plate, drill and tap holes in the corners, space it off the back of the mobo with some kind of plastic, and screw the sink on
[03:10:02] <jmkasunich> except I have no way to know the proper pressure
[03:10:45] <jmkasunich> if I put a backup plate in, it will increase the pressure, because right now the board is bending, and the plate would hold it straight
[03:12:28] <jmkasunich> skunkworks: when you say "the plastic mounted on the motherboard" what parts do you mean?
[03:12:44] <jmkasunich> this thing has no parts really mounted on the mobo
[03:12:54] <jmkasunich> those white plastic things are part of the HS assembly
[03:12:55] <skunkworks> we have some dells that are mounted thru the back panel
[03:14:54] <jmkasunich> http://www.endpcnoise.com/e/images/intel_775_fan.jpg
[03:14:58] <jmkasunich> thats the cooler
[03:15:08] <jmkasunich> nothing on the board but holes
[03:16:42] <skunkworks> ah - different than what I was thinking. let me find a picture
[03:18:38] <skunkworks> it mounts the same way but there is a plastic frame on the processor side that the heatsink clamps into.
[03:18:53] <jmkasunich> ah, and the frames broke?
[03:19:57] <skunkworks> yes
[03:19:58] <skunkworks> http://cgi.ebay.com/Pentium-4-Socket-478-CPU-Heatsink-Retention-Module_W0QQitemZ220104778690QQihZ012QQcategoryZ14293QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[03:20:02] <skunkworks> that is the frame
[03:20:30] <skunkworks> then this is the heatsink
[03:20:31] <skunkworks> http://cgi.ebay.com/Intel-P4-Pentium-4-2GHZ-CPU-Processor-w-heatsink-fan_W0QQitemZ220104894227QQihZ012QQcategoryZ14293QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[03:20:38] <jmkasunich> I see - it replaces the hooks on the socket
[03:20:45] <skunkworks> but same problem - really torques the motherboard
[03:20:53] <jmkasunich> yeah
[03:21:17] <jmkasunich> I found a pdf on the intel site saying "we know it bends the mobo, thats not a bug its a feature"
[03:21:35] <jmkasunich> that was aimed at Pentium 4
[03:21:45] <skunkworks> have had computers that would lockup right after booting. the tab would break and the heatsink wouldn't be touching the processor anymore.
[03:21:49] <jmkasunich> didn't find anything like that for the Core Duo
[03:22:05] <jmkasunich> with this one I'm not worried about the sink coming off
[03:22:22] <jmkasunich> I'm worried about broken traces and/or solder joints in the socket area
[03:22:38] <jmkasunich> if the folks in QC at work saw a board bent that much, they'd have a shit-fit
[03:22:45] <skunkworks> Like I said - there are some dells that bolt the frame thru to the backplane. I don't know if there is a spacer between the motherboard and the backplate.
[03:23:12] <jmkasunich> I'm torn... part of me wants to do it "right", whatever that is
[03:23:31] <jmkasunich> another part of me knows that if I mess with it, then anything that happens will be my fault
[03:23:52] <skunkworks> if that make sense - the screws that hold the retention module bolt thru the motherboard to the case
[03:24:01] <jmkasunich> board, cpu, and cooler are all intel, so if I don't mess with it and something dies, intel will have to make it right
[03:24:11] <jmkasunich> yeah, I understand
[03:24:51] <skunkworks> I should say - I don't think I have had the motherboard fail because of the bending.
[03:25:57] <jmkasunich> google finds one or two cases of people who think that might have caused failures
[03:26:05] <jmkasunich> if it was a real issue there would be hundreds
[03:26:18] <jmkasunich> maybe boards are stronger than I give them credit for
[03:27:07] <skunkworks> the core duo's (not core 2 duo's) (dell) have some sort of bolted on spring loaded heatsink. Not as much tention iirc
[03:27:20] <jtr> I'm wondering if putting a brace on the back side of the board will just trade thermal stress for bending stress.
[03:27:50] <skunkworks> huge heatsink with the fan that cools ducted and mounted on the back of the case.
[03:28:40] <jmkasunich> jtr: yeah, either that, or result in too much pressure on the chip... if they designed the cooler mount to allow for mobo flex, and I remove the flex, there will be a ton of force
[03:28:56] <jmkasunich> so I'm just gonna leave it alone
[03:31:31] <skunkworks> everybody does it ;)
[03:32:04] <eric_u> my AMD wasn't so bad.
[03:32:38] <skunkworks> it is the same design between them.
[03:32:43] <skunkworks> for that style anyways
[03:33:21] <eric_u> I hated the first p4 I put on myself though
[03:33:33] <eric_u> couldn't get it to go on right
[03:34:07] <jmkasunich> AMD uses a backplate behind the mobo to stiffen it
[03:34:13] <jmkasunich> the board doesn't take all the strain
[03:34:17] <eric_u> that sounds right
[03:34:35] <jmkasunich> (at least for socket F(1207) and I think socket AM2 (their latest ones)
[03:35:14] <skunkworks> hmm - the cheap motherboards I got didn't :)
[03:35:34] <skunkworks> oh well - time for bed. night.
[03:36:43] <jtr> same here - 'night, all.
[03:38:00] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[04:36:18] <tomp> i wonder if alex et all had these kins descriptions for the puma type robots? http://prt.fernuni-hagen.de/lehre/KURSE/PRT001/EXAMPLES/eqs2/index.html http://prt.fernuni-hagen.de/lehre/KURSE/PRT001/EXAMPLES/eqs4/index.html
[04:43:36] <tomp> anonimasu: can controllers with rtlinux at http://www.mca2.org/ (with rtai)
[05:59:08] <Jymmm> Heh, this is gonna be fun... i told symantic to remove ALL things relates to sound, we'll see if I even have a GUI left after it's done! LOL
[06:16:33] <Jymmm> Nope!
[06:16:59] <jmkasunich> symantic? you been doing too much windows... I think you mean synaptic ;-)
[06:17:03] <Jymmm> Jsut the mouse cursor and the squigly lines!
[06:17:17] <Jymmm> jmkasunich LOL, yep, that's what I meant =)
[06:17:29] <jmkasunich> guess you gotta put something back...
[06:17:45] <Jymmm> I was thinking KDE or ICE
[06:18:15] <jmkasunich> cdroms suck
[06:18:34] <Jymmm> Though, I want to get rid of all the extras first.
[06:18:42] <Jymmm> why do cdroms suck?
[06:18:57] <jmkasunich> I thought the new computer was busted - it sits for over a minute on boot if the cdrom drive is connecte
[06:18:59] <jmkasunich> d
[06:19:28] <Jymmm> That's sounds more like a BIOs issue.
[06:19:30] <Jymmm> BIOS
[06:20:12] <jmkasunich> yeah, I think its taking that long to figure out "no, its an old drive, you can't do UDMA-100" or whatever the latest and fanciest is
[06:20:43] <Jymmm> Butt cd/dvd are ADAPTI, not ATA
[06:21:06] <Jymmm> see if a updated bios is available for that mobo
[06:21:12] <jmkasunich> there is
[06:21:22] <jmkasunich> the one in it is from november, the newest is from april 3
[06:21:45] <Jymmm> 9 out of 10 times they don't document extra bugs that have been fixed in the readme's
[06:22:18] <jmkasunich> I downloaded the bios update iso, I should probalby burn it and give it a shot
[06:22:19] <Jymmm> No matter how fearful swp is of upgrading BIOS'es =)
[06:22:31] <Jymmm> BIOS ISO?! what the....
[06:23:07] <jmkasunich> bootable cdrom, to flash the bios regardless of what OS (if any) is loaded
[06:23:18] <jmkasunich> its only about 2meg, not a full disk
[06:23:36] <Jymmm> Ah, ok. Guess the floppy is becoming a thing of the past now.
[06:23:39] <jmkasunich> they have a floppy one too, but the new box doesn't have a floppy drive
[06:23:57] <Jymmm> I still have a couple workign 5.25" drives
[06:24:18] <Jymmm> bah i forgot how to enable sshd on ubuntu
[06:24:46] <Jymmm> oh, it's not installed by default.. argh
[06:26:13] <Jymmm> jmkasunich What's your WM poison of chice?
[06:26:36] <jmkasunich> I'm just using standard ubuntu (gnome) cause I'm lazy
[06:27:00] <jmkasunich> I liked KDE, and I have Xubunbu (breezy version) on a slow laptop that I don't use much anymore
[06:27:24] <jmkasunich> but since I support people using stock ubuntu, I kinda want to have the same thing they do
[06:27:42] <Jymmm> I like KDE too, but Kubuntu distro has major problems, I tink I'll go ICE on this just becasue it's a P3 600
[06:28:05] <Jymmm> Dallas, we have shell!!!
[06:28:50] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich reboots to bios updater....
[06:29:25] <Jymmm> jmkasunich is this that new fancy one you werw talking about?
[06:37:21] <jmkasunich> yes
[06:37:27] <jmkasunich> new bios loaded
[06:37:41] <jmkasunich> didn't make a difference in the boot time (didn't expect it to)
[06:37:56] <jmkasunich> I think I need to tell it what mode to use for the cdrom
[06:39:02] <ds3> working 5.25? FH?
[07:21:00] <Jymmmmmmmmmmmm> LOL http://www.zshare.net/video/cybersister-wmv-s10.html
[08:26:06] <alex_joni> tomp: yeah, I saw those at one point
[08:37:04] <jmkasunich> morning alex_joni
[08:41:33] <alex_joni> hey jmk.. what are you doing up ?
[08:42:08] <jmkasunich> new computer ;-)
[08:42:26] <alex_joni> ok, then you're excused :P
[08:42:55] <jmkasunich> running single processor kernel, builds EMC2 sim in 1:08 real
[08:42:59] <jmkasunich> old one took 3:25
[08:43:12] <jmkasunich> I'm getting the SMP kernel (non-RT) now
[09:03:25] <Jymmmmmmmmmmmm> Heh, in the dog house and sleeping on the couch again ---> jmk-solo
[09:03:59] <jmk-solo> solo is the hostname
[09:04:07] <jmk-solo> its in an Antek Solo case
[09:04:26] <Jymmmmmmmmmmmm> Uh huh.... SURe it is.... "We believe you"
[09:06:02] <jmk-solo> jmk-solo is now known as jmk-core2
[09:06:42] <Jymmmmmmmmmmmm> Ah, NOW we know why he's in the doghouse... the wife found out about the 2 girlfriends
[09:07:53] <jmk-core2> well, it looks like this system is about 5-6 times faster than the old one... I think I'll keep it
[09:07:57] <Jymmmmmmmmmmmm> ... Seepeu and Seepeutoo
[09:08:03] <jmk-core2> and on that note, goodnight all
[09:08:22] <Jymmmmmmmmmmmm> night jmk-core2
[11:51:13] <CIA-20> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/Makefile: must move the definition of TRIVIAL_BUILD above the include of the Submakefiles, otherwise you get an error 'ld: no input files' when linking components on sim
[11:53:34] <jepler> "Finally, CNC toast!" http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2007/04/finally_cnc_toast.html
[11:55:43] <alex_joni> jepler: lol
[12:27:42] <CIA-20> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/libnml/os_intf/_sem.c: this warning is useless
[12:34:42] <alex_joni> hi ray
[12:35:07] <jepler> hi ray!
[12:35:16] <rayh> Hi guys.
[12:37:27] <rayh> flying home from Shangha was a trip from hell!
[12:37:45] <jepler> beyond being a ****ing long flight, you mean?
[12:39:30] <rayh> Yes. delays and six separate flights.
[12:40:04] <rayh> One midair hardware problem that caused a turn around.
[12:40:22] <rayh> But I'm back.
[12:41:00] <jepler> it's nice to see you
[12:41:12] <rayh> Thanks
[12:51:19] <alex_joni> glad you made it :P
[12:52:36] <rayh> Saw a couple of nice robots and rotaries that could be stacked to make em.
[12:54:35] <jepler> neat
[12:55:44] <CIA-20> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/image-to-gcode.py: new option to add a black or white border to the image, for input images with details that go all the way to the edges
[12:57:48] <CIA-20> 03jepler 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/docs/src/gui/image-to-gcode.lyx: document new Expand Image Border option
[12:58:43] <alex_joni> jepler: didn't that make it into the wrong branch?
[12:59:38] <jepler> oops, crap
[13:01:28] <CIA-20> 03jepler 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/docs/src/gui/image-to-gcode.lyx: last check-in was on the wrong tree
[13:02:09] <jepler> alex_joni: thanks for catching that
[13:02:13] <CIA-20> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/docs/src/gui/image-to-gcode.lyx: document new Expand Image Border option
[13:08:24] <alex_joni> jepler: np
[13:17:00] <CIA-20> 03jepler 07v2_1_branch * 10emc2/src/Makefile: fix bug reported by cradek: if you use -j, and configure needs to be re-run, it would start building object files before configure had finished
[13:19:42] <CIA-20> 03jepler 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/Makefile: merge rev re-running configure in make -j
[13:22:54] <alex_joni> bbl
[14:00:11] <tomp> 6 hops from Shanghai? was that Greyhound? :)
[14:35:20] <skunkworks> wow - ribbons for dot matrix printers can't be found locally anymore :)
[14:35:42] <jepler> what a tragedy
[14:40:22] <Dallur> My local electronics shop just told me when I bought a 25 pin D male/female (parallel) cable that this was the latch batch of 25pin D cables they would order so I might need to special order from now on :P
[14:44:08] <tomp> Dallur: were you able to connect parameters to pins? ( i thought there was some difficulty near a week ago )
[14:44:42] <Dallur> tomp: no, I just converted the parameters to pins :)
[14:45:11] <Dallur> tomp: I discussed with a couple of the other guys and we agreed that it was the best course of action for the parameters in question
[14:45:36] <Dallur> tomp: I have not committed anything to cvs though, testing has taken way longer than I thought because of grounding/shielding issues with hardware
[14:46:15] <tomp> Dallur: and connected the 'param-pins' to constant components?
[14:47:40] <Dallur> tomp: just hooked the pins up like usual with net
[14:49:44] <tomp> rephrasing... these new pins, how did they get value? value from a hal file?
[14:50:34] <Dallur> tomp: these new pins were parameters provided by a component before, their value is set by the component
[14:50:41] <Dallur> tomp: are you looking to put a static value on a pin ?
[14:50:49] <tomp> yes
[14:51:16] <tomp> really, to expose the parameters as pins on all components
[14:52:25] <Dallur> when I want to set up a static value on a pin I just create a signal and use setp, but if you have an existing component with a parameter that you want to connect to a pin the easiest way I found was to convert the component parameter to a pin
[14:52:42] <Dallur> if people agree that it should be done for the parameter in question
[14:53:27] <cradek> you don't even need a signal to put a static value on a pin, just use setp
[14:54:20] <skunkworks> funny - all of my printer ribbon is dried up.. I wonder how long we have had them ;)
[14:54:27] <tomp> Ok, the idea of 'comp' as a language makes group consensus difficult. setp work for floats? but is invisible to a pictorial description ( like a circuit where the voltages are not described )
[14:55:13] <cradek> skunkworks: is it a cartridge where you can get the top off?
[14:55:26] <tomp> Dallur: cradek: thanks
[14:55:48] <skunkworks> cradek: yes
[14:56:13] <cradek> skunkworks: just spray it with WD40
[14:57:26] <skunkworks> I was hoping to change guts with one I had - but all the ribbon I have is dried. Really? interesting. (the one that they have been using or the ones I had in stock that where dried up?)
[14:57:59] <cradek> really, it works great on those cartridges where all the edge is exposed because it's bunched up in there
[14:58:24] <tomp> wicking
[14:59:11] <skunkworks> these are smaller cartirges - they have a spunge wheel that has ink on it - it also has bunched up ribbon also but not as much as the long cartridges
[15:01:10] <skunkworks> but the 'spraying with wd-40' may get them by until the new ones come in. Thanks
[15:41:03] <jepler> tomp: what do you mean -- just that "comp" is an overloaded term, or something deeper?
[15:42:17] <tomp> comp the language. i'm using i & o symbols now and making a gEDA drawing of the freqgen to explain how i'd represent paramteres from a hal file in a graphic of many components ( a hal diagram )
[15:42:59] <tomp> eventually letting users draw a schematic rather than read text files
[15:45:12] <jepler> how you visually represent a component on a diagram is completely different from how you implement it in a programming language.
[15:45:46] <jepler> As a more concrete example, it is useful to have a symbol that represents an AND gate which is different from the combination of transistors and resistors that actually implement an AND gate in some technology.
[15:47:21] <tomp> maybe the drawing will explain better, right now the mental interpretation of what a hal file means is less intuitive than a graphic.
[15:47:47] <tomp> have you looked at the wiki for gEDA & hal?
[15:47:50] <jepler> no
[15:47:53] <tomp> k
[15:50:18] <skunkworks> cradek: that worked great (wd40)
[15:53:52] <jepler> tomp: having read that page just a bit, I think my analogy about AND gate symbols is a good one. The source code for a component (whether in "C" or in .comp) is more like the way transistors are hooked together to make an AND gate, while you're talking about what an AND gate symbol should look like -- it is two different levels of abstraction.
[15:55:27] <jepler> on the other hand, for .comp files, you could parse the declaration section and build a gschem symbol in some arbitrary way -- not sensibly organized like you have organized the ones in the screenshot on that page
[15:55:58] <jepler> but it's not clear whether these automatically generated symbols would be worth using
[15:58:13] <tomp> jepler: i think its just a graphic representation of what has to be considered in any hal effort.
[15:58:21] <tomp> the 'circuit' has to be specified, wether in text or graphics and graphics is more human (imo).
[15:58:23] <tomp> I dont auto generate symbols for exactly the reason you state, automated symbols seem to be disorganized.
[15:58:55] <tomp> (and i didnt spend the time to write a parser gener9r :)
[15:59:03] <tomp> gener8r
[16:00:17] <jepler> OK, I accept that (at least some) people will prefer a graphical editor to a text based one, but I still don't understand what part of the "comp" program makes this a harder problem
[16:01:52] <tomp> no, comp is good. it allows anyone to create new comps at will. THAT is what makes it difficult for group use, they breed like rabbits on home systems and are custom for the user, not public to the group. thats good not bad.
[16:02:46] <tomp> " the idea of 'comp' as a language makes group consensus difficult"
[16:02:49] <jepler> oh -- you mean that because every user is free to write a new component (nothing to do with the comp language or program) that it's not possible to furnish a complete library of hal components
[16:03:04] <jepler> the freedom to write new components is fundamental to Free Software
[16:03:17] <tomp> right ( righty arm !)
[16:05:14] <jepler> I wouldn't sweat that too much -- the users who would benefit most from a graphical editor are the same users who would never be comfortable installing (let alone writing) an extra component, and if a gschem-based HAL editor eventually takes off then people who are making components for others will just have to accept creating a symbol as part of the task
[16:07:18] <tomp> jepler: this came to mind with Rugludallur's THC project, a good schema would be handy for him and for others, and for me trying to follow his thoughts.
[16:08:07] <tomp> jepler: i find what you did in 'comp' (the language) much easier than using C for a new component. it's great.
[16:09:20] <jepler> thanks -- at the start of this conversation I thought you had the opposite view.
[16:11:01] <jepler> I wish it was possible to enable that svg pan&zoom plug-in, but not have its toolbar appear except when there's actually an svg document visible
[16:11:37] <tomp> yeh real estate is valuable
[16:11:46] <tomp> try f11?
[16:12:05] <tomp> better for me
[16:23:00] <tomp> ok, gEDA with hal parameter idea http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?HalSchematicsUsingGschem this just uses standard schematic i o & io pins manually entered from .hal files.
[16:23:41] <anonimasu> :)
[16:24:11] <tomp> 'tbd' means 'to be determined', usually readonly data
[16:24:43] <tomp> else, with rw data, the value seen is initialization data
[16:37:36] <tomp> jepler: View | Toolbars | uncheck SVG Zoom and Pan, (now SVG bar is gone but still useful ) then Ctrl Up Arrow is magnify, and ctrl left arrow is pan (never found zoom out yet )
[19:31:11] <Martin_Lundstrom> Hello folks
[19:33:09] <Martin_Lundstrom> Dallur: Are you there?
[19:35:26] <alex_joni> hi martin
[19:35:46] <Martin_Lundstrom> Hello alex_joni
[19:35:57] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is happy
[19:36:10] <alex_joni> found some music I used to hear 11+ years ago
[19:36:35] <Martin_Lundstrom> Do you know if Dallur had have success with his plasma table config?
[19:36:44] <Martin_Lundstrom> ahhh, nostalgica
[19:36:46] <alex_joni> I think he started moving it
[19:36:54] <Martin_Lundstrom> ok
[19:45:47] <jepler> tomp: thanks for that tip about svg -- I hope I can remember it :-P
[19:46:38] <tomp> np
[19:46:58] <jepler> tomp: for the screenshots on HalSchematicsUsingGschem, have you tried png format instead of jpeg? That usually gives much good compression for screenshots like that (few colors, mostly one background color) but without artifacts like jpeg
[19:47:07] <Jymmmmmmm> what about svg??????
[19:47:15] <jepler> (though it doesn't help to convert jpeg to png, I hasten to point out)
[19:49:20] <tomp> jepler: hmmm, i mistakenly thought pngs were huge, and i used 35% jpg ( no compression ratio option in png ). i see that the orig png was 28k and the compressed jpg is 47k :-[
[19:49:48] <tomp> thanks
[19:50:13] <Jymmmmmmm> SVG tips????
[19:50:26] <jepler> tomp: oh good, if you still have the original PNGs it's easy .. I feared you'd have to prepare the screenshots again to switch to png
[19:51:36] <tomp> Jymmmmmm: there's an extension for svg in firefox ( slightly better than native svg support ) http://www.treebuilder.de/zoomAndPan/index.htm
[19:52:12] <Jymmmmmmm> tomp: Ah, thanks!
[19:52:32] <jepler> Jymmmmmmm: the "tip" was that ctrl-up is "magnify" and ctrl-left is "pan" even if you don't have the toolbar of that extension visible
[19:53:01] <Jymmmmmmm> I'm working an creating SVG's dynamically, that should help too
[19:53:07] <jepler> what kind of svgs are you doing?
[19:53:13] <jepler> artistic or technical?
[19:54:29] <Jymmmmmmm> Well, more artistic, based upon predefined "fill in the blank" templates.
[19:55:23] <Jymmmmmmm> jepler: when you say tehnical, do you mean with callouts and the like?
[19:56:15] <Jymmmmmmm> Jymmmmmmm is now known as Jymm
[19:56:23] <jepler> not necessarily -- just "more for informational purposes than because it looks nice"
[19:56:41] <Jymm> jepler: could you give me a simple example?
[19:58:13] <jepler> this is technical, because it's about the information, not about the asethetics: http://axis.unpy.net/files/01174426278/sim-mill.svg this is artistic, because it's about looking nice: http://www.croczilla.com/svg/samples/butterfly/butterfly.svg
[19:58:42] <jepler> (though if you studied insects, I suppose the second one might be "technical" to you)
[19:59:14] <Jymm> DOH, I need to upgrade FF on this machien, hand on =)
[20:02:17] <tomp> i gotta write the authors of the svg extension to look at better hotkeys. i just got real lost with the mill svg (as in saw a blank screen and had no idea where the content was ) ... had to reload the page
[20:04:23] <Jymm> CTRL+UP doesn't seem todo anything in FF
[20:05:01] <tomp> a bit more info about the svg hotkeys; CtrlUparrow >toggles< the zoom-in on and off, while ALT-LeftArrow toggles pan on and off. ( still no hot key for zoom out, or restore, or scale to screen )
[20:05:27] <Jymm> this is with that plugin?
[20:05:30] <tomp> using FF
[20:05:30] <alex_joni> 22:46 < tomp> Jymmmmmm: there's an extension for svg in firefox ( slightly
[20:05:30] <alex_joni> better than native svg support )
[20:05:30] <alex_joni> http://www.treebuilder.de/zoomAndPan/index.htm
[20:05:43] <tomp> alex_joni: thats the one we speak of
[20:06:12] <Jymm> * Jymm grabs portable inkscape instead...
[20:06:38] <tomp> sodipodi, inkscape, sketsa....
[20:07:01] <Jymm> I didn't care fo the UI of sodipodi
[20:07:11] <Jymm> sketsa I never heard of
[20:21:55] <lerman_> lerman_ is now known as lerman
[21:07:28] <jimlas53>
[21:08:20] <skunkworks>
[21:08:31] <Jymm>
[21:15:57] <alex_joni>
[21:16:09] <anonimasu>
[21:16:19] <anonimasu> err there ya go
[21:16:21] <anonimasu> :)
[21:16:31] <alex_joni> that's not fair
[21:16:36] <skunkworks> aww - you ruined it ;)
[21:16:57] <alex_joni> anonimasu: now you need to cleanup
[21:17:14] <alex_joni> * alex_joni heads to bed
[21:17:17] <alex_joni> good night all
[21:17:43] <skunkworks> Night alex
[21:17:56] <anonimasu> hehe
[21:18:13] <anonimasu> I always wonder how many people that shit themselves when I throw a ^G
[21:20:09] <Jymm> * Jymm shit himself, but doesn't know why
[21:22:50] <Jymm> holy cow, axis doesn't stutter on this dual 1GHz cpu with 2gb ram amchine.
[21:22:58] <anonimasu> heh
[21:27:14] <ds3> but is is that dual 1GHz machine consuming more power then your spindle? ;)
[21:27:38] <Jymm> 2.06 Amps with 20"crt
[21:27:47] <ds3> while running?!
[21:28:06] <Jymm> no, just the computer and crt, spindle takes about 5amps
[21:28:33] <ds3> I mean while the EMC machine is running (either simulating or driving the axises)
[21:57:08] <Jymmmmmmm> Ok, so whats the big deal with dual cpus and emc that I'm missing here?
[21:57:20] <Jymmmmmmm> that RT can't take advantage of SMP?
[21:57:44] <anonimasu> yeah
[21:58:08] <Jymmmmmmm> ok, ubuntu system monitor doens't show both cpus, what util does?
[21:58:33] <anonimasu> Jymmmmmmm: as you dont have smp support none does
[21:58:55] <Jymmmmmmm> ubuntu itself has support for dual cpu, doesn't it?
[21:59:00] <anonimasu> the big deal is that you cant throw apps at your second cpu..
[21:59:01] <anonimasu> yes
[21:59:26] <Jymmmmmmm> anonimasu: ok, so what util will let me see the cpu load of each one?
[21:59:53] <anonimasu> Jymmmmmmm: for the forth time.. you cant because you do not have two cpus.
[22:00:10] <anonimasu> Jymmmmmmm: You do not have smp support..
[22:00:34] <anonimasu> _if_ you do have smp support "top" will show your second cpu..
[22:00:49] <anonimasu> :)
[22:01:53] <Jymmmmmmm> Hmmm, it's only showing 1gb ram too, but I have 2gb
[22:02:06] <Jymmmmmmm> top that is
[22:04:29] <ds3> cat /proc/cpuinfo
[22:04:35] <ds3> count the number of CPUs show in there.
[22:05:59] <Jymmmmmmm> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=22735
[22:07:39] <Jymmmmmmm> and of course the link in that post is ead
[22:07:49] <Jymmmmmmm> dead
[22:08:33] <\x90> \x90 is now known as crepicdotcom
[22:12:06] <jepler> Jymmmmmmm: there is also a 1GB ram limit in the realtime-enabled kernel, because it was reported by several users that realtime always crashed when more than 1GB ram was present and used.
[22:12:18] <jepler> Jymmmmmmm: it's some bug in the realtime patch, apparently
[22:12:30] <Jymmmmmmm> ah, bummer.
[22:13:05] <Jymmmmmmm> I installed i386 flavor, should I install the i686 as suggested instead?
[22:13:55] <jepler> are you using the realtime kernel from linuxcnc.org, or an official ubuntu kernel? there is only one flavor of the linuxcnc.org kernel.
[22:14:10] <ds3> isn't there also a different compile flag to support more then 1G of RAM?
[22:14:26] <jepler> ds3: yes, though I thought it was enabled in the official ubuntu kernels
[22:14:41] <Jymmmmmmm> jepler: : Imenat by dl ubuntu i686 and then using the shell script to install emc
[22:16:02] <jepler> hum to my surprise, CONFIG_1GB (limit to 1GB memory) is the default on the official -386 and -686 kernel images for ubuntu 6.06
[22:18:51] <ds3> heh
[22:20:02] <jepler> 1
[22:20:02] <jepler> 1% grep 'CONFIG_.GB=y' /boot/config-*
[22:20:25] <ds3> or to be safe zgrep it from /proc/config.gz
[22:22:47] <mschuhmacher_> mschuhmacher_ is now known as mschuhmacher
[22:43:00] <mschuhmacher> hi, is anyone around, who knows something about this: http://www.linuxcnc.org/experimental/
[23:12:07] <Jymmmmmmm> jepler: does that mena I cna't utilize the 2gb on this box using ubuntu?
[23:12:24] <Jymmmmmmm> jepler: I'm willing to wipe the hdd at all if need be
[23:12:31] <eric_u> I thought you could
[23:12:34] <eric_u> use 2gb
[23:13:08] <Jymmmmmmm> eric_u: If I can, I don't know how to enable it.
[23:13:29] <Jymmmmmmm> top is reporting only 1gb, but the box has 2gb
[23:14:10] <Jymmmmmmm> and I have another mobo around here that supports 4gb, but I need to get some 1gb dimms for that =)
[23:14:40] <eric_u> what does one zombie mean?
[23:15:13] <ds3> wrt to a process?
[23:15:17] <eric_u> yes
[23:15:51] <eric_u> what about ubuntu is keeping you from using 2gb?
[23:15:55] <ds3> that's when a process dies but the parent has not called 'wait4()'
[23:16:23] <Jymmmmmmm> eric_u: jepler found something that says it's limited to 1gb by default
[23:16:38] <ds3> Jymmmm: does /proc/config.gz exists?
[23:16:40] <eric_u> interesting, kernel option?
[23:17:21] <Jymmmmmmm> ds3: no
[23:17:29] <ds3> Hmmm
[23:17:46] <ds3> can you get the kernel config file?
[23:18:00] <Jymmmmmmm> ds3: just tell me where it is
[23:18:13] <ds3> try looking in /boot
[23:18:32] <eric_u> it's /boot/configxxxxx
[23:18:47] <Jymmmmmmm> there's a config-2.6.15-magma file
[23:18:49] <ds3> that's by convention, there is no guarantee that is the right one :/
[23:18:52] <ds3> okay
[23:18:59] <ds3> grep for '1GB' in that file
[23:19:28] <Jymmmmmmm> CONFIG_1GB=y
[23:19:37] <ds3> there you go, the kernel is limited to 1G
[23:19:46] <ds3> recompile with that set to 'n'
[23:19:49] <eric_u> next step is a big one
[23:19:57] <eric_u> looks dangerous, you go first
[23:20:04] <cradek> no, don't do that, rtai will break
[23:20:08] <cradek> it's set to 1GB for a reason
[23:20:16] <eric_u> really?
[23:20:20] <cradek> yes
[23:20:27] <ds3> hope it is better then the one RH had ;)
[23:22:32] <Jymmmmmmm> Hmmmm $180 for 1GB PC100
[23:22:44] <cradek> if you need more than 1GB, just boot the nonrealtime kernel
[23:22:50] <jmkasunich> if I read back correctly, jepler said the non-RT ubuntu default kernel(s) had the 1G limit set too
[23:22:57] <jmkasunich> seems odd
[23:23:08] <cradek> that's surely not true, at least for the -686 etc kernels
[23:23:27] <jmkasunich> I'm showing 2G on the core 2, running ubuntu 686-SMP
[23:23:39] <ds3> now that there is RT support in the stock kernel tree, is there any plans to migrate to it?
[23:24:31] <jmkasunich> there is?
[23:24:46] <ds3> as of 2.6.21, the Mingo RT patches are stock, AFAIK
[23:25:09] <jmkasunich> no plans to migrate yet
[23:25:15] <jmkasunich> there would be a lot of work I think
[23:25:22] <Jymmmmmmm> jmkasunich: 6.06.1 ?
[23:25:30] <ds3> yep, but it would mean no more RTAI patching
[23:25:36] <jmkasunich> Jymmmmmm huh?
[23:25:50] <Jymmmmmmm> jmkasunich: is that what you are running?
[23:26:17] <cradek> 6.06 and 6.06.1 both become the same current system when you install the available updates
[23:26:19] <jmkasunich> ds3: the mingo patches might be good for servo systems, where you have a 1mS thread... I don't thinks its good enough for steppers (20uS threads)
[23:26:48] <ds3> Oh :/
[23:26:50] <Jymmmmmmm> I don't even SEE a i686 option in the ubuntu downloads
[23:27:03] <cradek> Jymmmmmmm: linux-686
[23:27:14] <Jymmmmmmm> http://mirrors.easynews.com/linux/ubuntu-releases/6.06.1/
[23:27:21] <Jymmmmmmm> I dont see that either
[23:27:40] <cradek> what exactly are you trying to do?
[23:28:05] <Jymmmmmmm> Just take advantage of the 3gb when not running RT
[23:28:09] <Jymmmmmmm> 2gb
[23:28:12] <cradek> you're confusing kernels, packages, and releases
[23:28:14] <jmkasunich> Jymmmmmm: I'm running a 6.06 iso that I downloaded a while ago, plus the 129 updates it does after installing, plus the 84 packages that are emc2 (and documentation) build deps, plus the 686 smp kernel package
[23:28:24] <cradek> just install the linux-686 package
[23:28:46] <Jymmmmmmm> cradek: pkg? not a distro flavor?
[23:29:01] <cradek> yes a package, it's just a kernel
[23:29:31] <Jymmmmmmm> AH, gotcha.... Thought I had to install a distro flavor.
[23:30:18] <Jymmmmmmm> linux-686-smp
[23:30:22] <jmk-core2> Jymmmmmm if you go into synaptic and search for "linux-image", you'll see about 20 (maybe 30) kernel packages available
[23:30:30] <Jymmmmmmm> that'll just add an entry to grub?
[23:30:51] <jmk-core2> yep
[23:30:55] <Jymmmmmmm> jmk-core2: I'm used to apt-get fwiw
[23:31:07] <Jymmmmmmm> you think that will enable the 2gb too?
[23:31:13] <jmk-core2> apt-get is great when you already know what you are looking for
[23:31:24] <jmk-core2> synaptic has a nice search when you don't
[23:31:25] <jmk-core2> (I use both)
[23:31:33] <jmk-core2> it should give you your 2G
[23:31:39] <Jymmmmmmm> Since my nix knowledge is limited, I TRY to use CLI as much as aI can
[23:31:44] <jmk-core2> I'm running it on this box, and I got 2gig
[23:32:40] <Jymmmmmmm> I'd LOVE to try 4GB, but I is too poor =)
[23:33:05] <Jymmmmmmm> $800 for PC00 is not how I like to invest =)
[23:33:11] <jmk-core2> 800?
[23:33:27] <Jymmmmmmm> 4 x 1Gb @ $180/each
[23:33:33] <jmk-core2> you could build a new machine for that
[23:33:43] <Jymmmmmmm> but with 4GB ram???
[23:34:00] <jmk-core2> depends
[23:34:54] <Jymmmmmmm> jmk-core2: I have a dual cpu mobo here that supports up to 4GB ram, it only has 2GB in it, just something to play with, but not for $800 on such old HW it aint =)
[23:36:21] <jmkasunich> right
[23:36:25] <jmkasunich> what about ebay for the older memory?
[23:36:43] <jmkasunich> or is the problem finding old BIG memory?
[23:37:11] <Jymmmmmmm> Didn't look there, just at the place around the corner from me.... http://www.oempcworld.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=PC100
[23:37:50] <jmkasunich> commercial sellers will rape you on older memory
[23:38:03] <jmkasunich> because they know/assume that you GOTTA have it
[23:38:45] <ds3> wasn't 1G modules relatively rare when PC100/133 was the standard?
[23:38:52] <jmkasunich> the memory in my new system (DDR2-800, 1G sticks) is 2 for $99.99 right now
[23:39:03] <jmkasunich> ds3: yeah, I think so
[23:39:09] <jmkasunich> thats why they're so expensive now
[23:39:18] <Jymmmmmmm> jmkasunich: Yeah, was just looking is all
[23:40:11] <Jymmmmmmm> I REALLY do noy like to buy pc hardware online, too many headaches if something is wrong.
[23:40:24] <jmkasunich> its amazing what you can get right now.... E6600 = $235, D965 mobos ~$120, ram $50 per gig
[23:40:51] <jmkasunich> yeah, I can understand that
[23:41:06] <jmkasunich> I have mobo from local place, CPU from one mail-order, and ram from another....
[23:41:15] <jmkasunich> I just hope nothing breaks
[23:42:10] <Jymmmmmmm> oh hawt damn... shows two cpus, now to check mem
[23:42:31] <Jymmmmmmm> there itis !!!! 2GB baby
[23:42:43] <jmk-core2> the ubuntu 686 kernel?
[23:42:43] <Jymmmmmmm> thought TOP only shows 1 cpu
[23:42:48] <Jymmmmmmm> yeah
[23:42:57] <Jymmmmmmm> well top shows combined cpu usage
[23:43:01] <jmk-core2> you have to tell it to show more than one CPU I think
[23:43:20] <jmk-core2> hit '1' (one, not ell)
[23:43:41] <Jymmmmmmm> yeah ther it is
[23:43:58] <Jymmmmmmm> oh this is nice, and running on the onboard video too
[23:44:03] <Jymmmmmmm> surprisingly
[23:44:50] <Jymmmmmmm> though, emc just told me to fsck off =) lol
[23:45:12] <jmk-core2> you can have realtime, or you can have 2G, but you can't have both
[23:45:25] <Jymmmmmmm> I can't even get SIM to run, bummer
[23:45:42] <jmk-core2> you should be able to do that, but you have to recompile
[23:46:42] <Jymmmmmmm> I thought I might be able to do at least that
[23:46:41] <Jymmmmmmm> oh, no biggy, I cna just reboot if needed
[23:46:45] <Jymmmmmmm> It's just nice to FINALLY have a system with some balls that can run nix as a desktop
[23:47:30] <Jymmmmmmm> Hey, glxgears even moves too! heh
[23:47:46] <jmkasunich> heh, glxgears is still dog-slow on my new box
[23:47:56] <jmkasunich> gotta figure out how to enable HW opengl
[23:48:06] <Jymmmmmmm> smae here, but MCUH faster than the P3 600
[23:48:15] <Jymmmmmmm> which is not saying much either =)
[23:48:37] <Jymmmmmmm> cp0: 98% cpu1: 2%
[23:48:55] <jmk-core2> single threaded app
[23:49:04] <Jymmmmmmm> I can even drag it around the screen and it doesn't leave ghosts
[23:56:49] <Jymmmmmmm> you AHVE to reboot to use a different kernel, right?
[23:56:58] <jmk-core2> yes
[23:57:09] <Jymmmmmmm> ok, just checking
[23:57:45] <Jymmmmmmm> It's SO nice to not have that splash screen
[23:58:14] <Jymmmmmmm> And I'm in LUST with framebuffer