#emc | Logs for 2007-04-11

[00:36:56] <eric_u> I was just thinking about putting a serial port monitor and figuring out what the setup software is sending to the drive, and then I find out that ab has a manual that says what the protocol is
[01:18:45] <rff> Havent been here for a while
[01:18:52] <rff> anything new?
[01:23:07] <skunkworks_> how long is a 'while'?
[01:23:40] <skunkworks_> why hasn't my nick dropped out yet?
[01:27:03] <jtr> freenode always liked skunkworks best! ;)
[01:28:36] <skunkworks_> :)
[01:31:36] <jtr> I think the command is " /msg nickserv ghost $nick $password" to fix it. Alex tried to help me with that problem the other day, but I couldn't stay connected.
[01:33:05] <jtr> I googled on "freenode irc ghost nick" - third link down to get this. Might want to actually read the link, instead of taking my word for it.
[01:37:43] <rff> oh maybe a year
[01:42:28] <jtr> rff: went from emc 2.0.0 to 2.1.4 - lots of progress - I wouldn't know where to start.
[01:43:24] <rff> hmm, with the year i have sold off much of my CNC parts, got rid of the galil and camsoft
[01:43:38] <rff> wishi had kept the galil now that i see mach3 will work with it
[01:44:01] <jtr> http://www.linuxcnc.org - click on News in the bar across the top
[01:44:17] <rff> i gearing up to build a lathe, using a polymer machine bed
[01:46:11] <rff> should be pretty neat , and hopefully works when its done
[01:48:14] <jtr> Lathe threading is here. I don't know if they're still working on it or if it's done. The pics looked good to me.
[01:49:22] <rff> anyone running emc on a lathe?
[01:50:00] <jtr> Cradek is - he did the threading setup.
[01:50:32] <rff> oops got to run , brb
[01:50:54] <jtr> not sure who else. I intend to - that will be my first CNC machine.
[01:54:40] <cradek> jtr: several are using emc2/lathe
[01:55:21] <skunkworks_> lerneaen_hydra
[01:55:22] <skunkworks_> is
[01:55:29] <skunkworks_> running emc2 on a lathe
[01:55:35] <cradek> I have it on two lathes
[01:55:39] <cradek> yes LH has a nice one
[01:56:00] <cradek> he made some videos of threading...?
[01:56:13] <jtr> Figured there were - just didn't want to misrepresent.
[01:56:31] <skunkworks_> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Videos
[01:56:40] <skunkworks_> I don't think his new one is there though
[01:56:57] <skunkworks_> video that is
[01:58:03] <jtr> Oh yeah, saw them. Oh, they're listed on the wiki - nice. Is there a better link than the one I posted for the news?
[01:58:54] <jtr> I thought I had seen the change descriptions all written out.
[01:59:40] <skunkworks_> I have an old micron mother board - not keeping the bios settings. don't see a battery anywhere. odd
[02:00:15] <cradek> jtr: there's a wiki page too
[02:00:27] <cradek> also, you can see the full changelog in cvsweb
[02:00:42] <jtr> skunkworks_: maybe it only has the external one?
[02:01:55] <skunkworks_> Don't see it yet. it is a pentium 133.
[02:02:22] <skunkworks_> odd - must be hiding. or missing ;)
[02:02:26] <cradek> here's a nickel, kid, get yourself a new computer
[02:02:41] <cradek> :-)
[02:03:14] <skunkworks_> well - this is pretty dedicated and I don't want to have to move it to a different computer. 3 sound cards - one relay output card.
[02:03:28] <skunkworks_> (sound automation for a museum)
[02:03:35] <cradek> ah interesting
[02:03:55] <skunkworks_> might have to bite the bullet.
[02:04:19] <cradek> usually the battery was hooked to a 4 pin connector by the keyboard plug
[02:05:59] <toastydeath> toastydeath is now known as clandestine_pede
[02:06:15] <clandestine_pede> clandestine_pede is now known as toastydeath
[02:12:15] <skunkworks_> cradek: no go. unless someone took it out. not seeing anything marked battery either.
[02:12:49] <skunkworks_> odd.
[02:13:01] <skunkworks_> I wonder if I still have the motherboard manual
[02:13:07] <rff> ok i am back, last minute chocolate shake run before the store closed
[02:13:23] <skunkworks_> mmmm chocolate
[02:14:56] <rff> still meet here on Sundays?
[02:15:31] <jtr> rff: skunkworks_ posted a link - http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Videos
[02:16:52] <jtr> I'm not usually around Sunday am, so not sure these days.
[02:17:39] <cradek> skunkworks_: odd!
[02:19:09] <jtr> gotta put the laptop up and do some other stuff before bed. goodnight.
[02:19:29] <rff> Les Watts still come on here , now that I live in GA I am about 1 hour from his shop
[02:19:36] <cradek> rff: we're here all the time really
[02:20:00] <cradek> rff: (we don't have any scheduled sunday meetings anymore)
[02:20:45] <rff> Oh, I thought they were pretty neat having people from all over the world meeting here
[02:21:27] <rff> oh well i am outta here , got to get up early for work
[02:23:34] <eric_u> skunkworks, you sure that it doesn't have one of those dallas clock chips?
[02:33:31] <skunkworks_> eric_u: how would I know?
[02:33:47] <eric_u> they are very large
[02:33:56] <skunkworks_> shit - it does
[02:34:06] <eric_u> I win!
[02:34:13] <skunkworks_> huge
[02:34:24] <skunkworks_> how does that work - does it have a battery in it?
[02:34:25] <eric_u> I've always figured you could take the cap off and replace the battery
[02:34:37] <eric_u> it was not intended to work that way, disposable
[02:34:50] <eric_u> they were supposed to work for 15 years or so
[02:35:07] <skunkworks_> well - that is about right ;)
[02:35:13] <eric_u> iirc, there is a standard battery in there
[02:36:13] <skunkworks_> this one is plugged in - potted
[02:36:25] <Jymmm> in what?
[02:36:40] <skunkworks_> old motherboard.
[02:36:53] <Jymmm> potted? really?
[02:37:16] <Jymmm> that doesn't seem right as battereies can leak
[02:37:31] <cradek> are you sure there's no 4 pin connector by the keyboard plug? you can often just add the external battery
[02:37:40] <skunkworks_> http://www.amazon.com/DALLAS-DS12887A-Equivalent-CMOS-battery/dp/B000A0R2JM
[02:37:43] <skunkworks_> that is it
[02:38:01] <Jymmm> ah a battery backed clock
[02:38:46] <Jymmm> Got Solderwick?
[02:38:54] <skunkworks_> it is plugged in
[02:38:56] <skunkworks_> :)
[02:39:01] <skunkworks_> have it in my hand
[02:39:04] <Jymmm> then buy a new one
[02:39:08] <skunkworks_> yep
[02:39:24] <Jymmm> skunkworks try http://www.amazon.com/DALLAS-DS12887A-Equivalent-CMOS-battery/dp/B000A0R2JM
[02:39:29] <Jymmm> <lol>
[02:39:44] <eric_u> obsolete
[02:39:52] <skunkworks_> eric_u: thanks - I was about ready to take the motherboard out and look at the bottom ;)
[02:40:03] <eric_u> welcome
[02:40:30] <skunkworks_> cradek: no - I don't see any. Also the manual doesn't show it. (found one online)
[02:40:32] <Jymmm> skunkworks got a dmm and maybe see if you can get the pinout?
[02:41:11] <skunkworks_> it is for work - so the easiest is to just spend some money ;)
[02:41:17] <Jymmm> ah
[02:41:22] <jmkasunich> IIRC the dallas parts were pinned out just like a standard static ram
[02:41:39] <skunkworks_> don't really know why I am looking at it at this time ;)
[02:41:44] <jmkasunich> bored?
[02:41:51] <skunkworks_> maybe.
[02:41:51] <Jymmm> was just gonna say that
[02:41:52] <eric_u> the clock chips were different
[02:42:25] <eric_u> well, at least they have lots of missing pins
[02:42:32] <skunkworks_> it is a duel inline package.24 pin
[02:42:41] <skunkworks_> with a few missing ;)
[02:43:06] <eric_u> I don't know why they had to epoxy the lid on like that
[02:44:00] <eric_u> I guess they just filled the lid with epoxy and slapped in the chip
[02:44:57] <skunkworks_> so you would have to buy a new one?
[02:45:06] <eric_u> that's my guess
[02:46:18] <skunkworks_> jymmm: I don't know about that...
[02:47:25] <eric_u> another illusion shattered, you can't possibly replace the battery
[02:47:46] <tomp> step gens and first freqgen for gEDA http://imagebin.org/8144
[02:48:22] <jmkasunich> wow
[02:48:30] <jmkasunich> why'd you copy all that detail?
[02:48:43] <tomp> i like to see the realations
[02:48:52] <tomp> relationships
[02:48:54] <jmkasunich> true
[02:49:15] <jmkasunich> but you're gonna need a really big sheet of paper to print out a 3 or 4 axis schematic
[02:49:58] <tomp> all the diagrams so far are big... some other solution ( pages , sub schemas ) can be done with gEDA already
[02:50:07] <jmkasunich> ok
[02:50:25] <eric_u> wow those are nice
[02:50:41] <eric_u> as my idiot boss says, without a picture it's just handwaving
[02:51:25] <ejholmgren> * ejholmgren waves hands
[02:51:48] <eric_u> a sentiment that makes me want to smack him, but that wouldn't be collegial
[02:51:54] <tomp> there's a library of parts being built http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?HalSchematicsUsingGschem
[02:52:52] <tomp> i'll add the 'gen's to the tbz2 file, so people might try it out
[02:58:02] <ejholmgren> tomp: are you getting any weird gui errors in gschem?
[02:58:09] <tomp> ok, wiki updated
[02:58:24] <tomp> ejholmgren: no, what do you see happen?
[02:58:58] <ejholmgren> things not redrawing correctly on the screen, etc
[02:59:13] <ejholmgren> could have been that I was using it in os x
[03:00:16] <tomp> i move the files between 2 systems a lot, and i do see that things shift a bit ( a few pixels ) when i save a symbol, but no errs when drawings are saved
[03:01:39] <tomp> i've stopped using the automatic shift to 0 when i save the symbols because of that, instead i manually make sure the symbol is at 0,0
[03:03:52] <tomp> ejholmgren: thanks for trying it out
[03:20:33] <eric_u> fedora installs geda under "edutainment"
[03:31:46] <ejholmgren> ha
[04:15:25] <tomp> gEDA component freqgens type 0 and 1 done
[05:13:30] <ds3> Hmmmm
[07:50:37] <alex_joni> hey Jymmm
[07:50:41] <alex_joni> still around this late?
[07:50:44] <Jymmm> no
[07:50:48] <alex_joni> heh
[07:50:57] <Jymmm> leave a message a tthe beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep
[07:51:00] <alex_joni> so.. started to ask if you know anything about layer 3 switches
[07:51:08] <Jymmm> why?
[07:51:16] <alex_joni> I got my hands on a cisco 3550
[07:51:25] <Jymmm> cool, send it to me
[07:51:28] <alex_joni> :P
[07:51:34] <alex_joni> was wondering if it's any good :D
[07:52:01] <alex_joni> but in the mean time I read a bit about it, and I like it :P
[07:52:24] <alex_joni> dirt cheap too
[07:52:32] <Jymmm> how many ports?
[07:52:40] <alex_joni> 24 + 2 slots for GBIC
[07:52:46] <Jymmm> cool, send it to me
[07:55:25] <Jymmm> if you can get your hands on the IOS you can turn it into a router
[07:56:17] <ds3> Cat 3550 or plain 3550?
[07:56:23] <alex_joni> catalyst 3550
[07:56:36] <ds3> decent switches
[07:56:46] <alex_joni> C3550-24PWR-SMI
[07:57:00] <ds3> think that runs CatOS
[07:57:06] <alex_joni> it's got Inline Power
[07:57:19] <alex_joni> but I need to find a PSU for that to work
[07:57:20] <Jymmm> PoE ?
[07:57:26] <alex_joni> Jymmm: yeah
[07:57:27] <alex_joni> on all ports
[07:57:29] <ds3> unless that's when they started dropping the XL designator
[07:57:41] <alex_joni> ds3: manufactured 2004
[07:57:57] <ds3> Oh so they did drop it, that should be IOS then
[07:58:30] <alex_joni> I'll fire it up later, and see what it spills out
[07:58:44] <alex_joni> it's quite big though :P
[07:59:08] <ds3> big? 4U isn't it?
[07:59:12] <alex_joni> 1U
[07:59:21] <alex_joni> but full rack size..
[07:59:27] <alex_joni> 19"x 19"
[07:59:32] <alex_joni> roughly
[07:59:41] <ds3> think if you get the power supply, it makes it 4U total
[07:59:47] <ds3> 19" is small ;)
[07:59:50] <alex_joni> :P
[08:00:01] <ds3> try a Cat6500 or Cat5K/Cat5500
[08:00:11] <alex_joni> ds3: :P
[08:01:02] <alex_joni> ok, what kind of money would be dirt cheap for this?
[08:01:14] <ds3> $0.00? ;)
[08:01:18] <alex_joni> :))
[08:01:24] <alex_joni> keep it real :P
[08:06:13] <Jymmm> .01
[08:06:23] <Jymmm> ask ebay
[08:10:54] <alex_joni> http://cgi.ebay.com/Cisco-Catalyst-3550-24-Port-Switch-WS-C3550-24PWR-SMI_W0QQitemZ320102241952QQihZ011QQcategoryZ28040QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[08:11:02] <alex_joni> 900$ starting price..
[08:48:47] <renesis> is there anyplace i can get a list of services and deps emc/axis need to run?
[08:49:10] <renesis> like if i wanted to try and peel away some of the excess on the livecd install
[08:50:36] <alex_joni> renesis: to run? or to compile?
[08:53:51] <renesis> mta: run
[08:53:59] <renesis> er
[08:54:11] <renesis> sry other channel nick, but yeah just to run
[08:54:36] <renesis> i installed build-essentials tho, to get gcam compiled
[08:54:59] <renesis> im prob gonna switch to blackbox for wm, and i might kill off gdm
[08:55:29] <renesis> theres a ton of services and init crap going on i wanna turn off tho, i wanna know what emc needs tho
[09:09:15] <alex_joni> renesis: if you're working with apt, then it will remove emc if you remove a dependency
[09:09:34] <alex_joni> let me get you a list
[09:10:27] <alex_joni> tcl8.4,tk8.4,libreadline5, python2.4-numarray | python-numarray , python2.4-imaging, python2.4-imaging-tk | python-imaging-tk, python (>= 2.4), python (<< 2.5), emc2, ${python:Depends}, bwidget (>= 1.7), bwidget (<<1.8), python2.4-tk,python2.4-xml
[09:10:44] <alex_joni> you can further reduce those deps, if you don't plan to run AXIS or xemc
[09:11:08] <alex_joni> the other deps are: linux-kernel-image-2.6.15-magma (for dapper)
[09:28:37] <Jymmm> G'Night Folks
[09:43:18] <renesis> any reason why i couldnt install the magma kernel without the initrd stuff?
[10:02:10] <alex_joni> probablt not.. depends what fielsystem you have
[10:39:23] <renesis> just ext3
[10:41:57] <alex_joni> then you're probably safe..
[11:23:19] <anonimasu> :)
[11:44:02] <alex_joni> morning chris
[11:51:09] <NightHawk> Hi to All
[11:52:07] <alex_joni> hi NightHawk
[11:52:18] <NightHawk> I'd like to know if a All-in-one Mainboard will work with EMC.
[11:52:38] <NightHawk> I'm an italian mechanical Engineer and I'm deveolping a new line of low cost cnc machines
[11:53:23] <NightHawk> A local PC reseller suggest me this Mainboard : ASROCK NF6G-DVI Alive with a AMD Sempron 3400
[11:53:28] <NightHawk> 512Mb RAM
[11:54:09] <NightHawk> I've read about the incompatibility of the realtime extension of linuxCNC distro with Nvidia chipset, especially with the onboard graphic card.
[11:54:12] <NightHawk> Is it right?
[11:54:49] <NightHawk> I've forgot to tell that EMC Rocks!!!
[11:56:57] <lerneaen_hydra> You may have issues with integrated graphics, I'm not sure if the 6100/6150 is usable though
[11:57:15] <lerneaen_hydra> usually integrated graphics messes up RT
[11:57:44] <lerneaen_hydra> you should be able to get a discrete graphics card for 40-50€ though
[11:57:57] <NightHawk> Hi larneaen_hydra.
[11:57:59] <anonimasu> one tip is to get one without a fan..
[11:58:18] <NightHawk> In fact I doubt about the onboard graphics.
[11:58:33] <lerneaen_hydra> anonimasu: afaik all low-end graphics cards are fanless
[11:58:39] <lerneaen_hydra> or nearly all at least
[11:58:49] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: well, it's a good tip if you have good airflow through the chassis..
[11:59:06] <lerneaen_hydra> yeah, less stuff to break mid-machining
[11:59:12] <anonimasu> :)
[11:59:33] <anonimasu> especially when selling them
[11:59:51] <anonimasu> another good tip is filters..
[12:00:00] <NightHawk> I live in Italy and I can buy new graphic card for about 20€
[12:00:38] <lerneaen_hydra> that sounds good
[12:00:49] <NightHawk> anonimasu : I'm writing down all your suggestions!!! more more!! :-)
[12:00:52] <lerneaen_hydra> afaik other integrated stuff should work fine with RT
[12:01:17] <anonimasu> NightHawk: I guess that's all I have for keeping the machine alive
[12:01:22] <lerneaen_hydra> like lan, cd/harddisk IO, usb and so on
[12:01:33] <anonimasu> NightHawk: keeping dust out and chips is the biggest problem
[12:01:49] <anonimasu> unless you have everything in a enclosure :)
[12:01:55] <NightHawk> :D
[12:02:43] <lerneaen_hydra> or if you have a relatively clean working area
[12:02:50] <alex_joni> lerneaen_hydra: yeah right
[12:03:10] <alex_joni> he plans to sell them.. so he can't assume that
[12:03:16] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, I see
[12:03:26] <anonimasu> lerneaen_hydra: it never works that way in reality :D
[12:03:28] <lerneaen_hydra> then you'll need to filter and box it up a lot
[12:03:33] <skunkworks> so the reason my nick stayed on last night was I left my computer on at work here.
[12:03:39] <skunkworks> duh
[12:03:54] <alex_joni> skunkworks: haha
[12:03:57] <anonimasu> even at a clean shop stuff acumulates over time
[12:03:58] <lerneaen_hydra> for me it does, my lathe doesn't spray chips at all and there's nothing else that makes chips so it just sits on the floor
[12:04:31] <lerneaen_hydra> seeing as how my lathe is in the middle of an electronics lab I have to keep it relatively clean ;)
[12:04:38] <anonimasu> heh
[12:04:39] <anonimasu> yeah
[12:05:35] <NightHawk> I'm thinking about a protective enclosure for the PC case
[12:05:55] <NightHawk> or mounting all the electronics in a single industrial enclosure
[12:06:29] <lerneaen_hydra> something that's sealed is probably a good idea
[12:06:47] <anonimasu> what kind of machine are you building?
[12:06:53] <anonimasu> router?
[12:06:54] <lerneaen_hydra> otherwise some operator might get the wonderfull idea of cleaning the control box with pressurised air ;)
[12:07:13] <anonimasu> and that's not a good idea?
[12:07:23] <anonimasu> *just kididng*
[12:07:58] <lerneaen_hydra> * lerneaen_hydra pokes anonimasu
[12:10:31] <anonimasu> :
[12:10:34] <anonimasu> :)
[12:10:38] <anonimasu> gah I cant type at all
[12:11:20] <skunkworks> so - I have had it for a week now - still flys great. very impressed. http://www.electronicsam.com/images/havoc/SIDE.JPG
[12:11:35] <NightHawk> anonimasu : The first machine is a router for non metal materials, wood and plastics
[12:11:45] <NightHawk> the second machine will be a plasma
[12:12:06] <anonimasu> oh.
[12:12:11] <anonimasu> that will need a sealed closure
[12:12:14] <lerneaen_hydra> skunkworks: I can't load your site at all
[12:12:25] <NightHawk> for the low budget I'll use Stepper
[12:12:36] <NightHawk> for the higher range : brushless
[12:13:21] <lerneaen_hydra> skunkworks: can't even ping it
[12:13:31] <lerneaen_hydra> maybe youre DNS is busted?
[12:14:37] <lerneaen_hydra> the nameservers won't respond
[12:16:05] <alex_joni> dead from here too
[12:17:15] <NightHawk> ok boys, I have to go to work. Here in Italy is the 14:18
[12:17:19] <NightHawk> :(
[12:17:39] <NightHawk> thanx to all for the info you gave to me
[12:17:54] <skunkworks> lerneaen_hydra: my site?
[12:18:04] <NightHawk> and excuse me for my bad english :(
[12:18:09] <a-l-p-h-a> why are mouse drivers 42 megs?!?!
[12:18:17] <lerneaen_hydra> skunkworks: yeah
[12:18:19] <lerneaen_hydra> NightHawk: bye
[12:18:24] <a-l-p-h-a> 8 addition megs for yahoo toolbar. wth.
[12:18:27] <skunkworks> odd - working here.
[12:18:28] <lerneaen_hydra> a-l-p-h-a: bloat is the shit
[12:18:32] <anonimasu> yay I got linear scaled for the lathe now
[12:18:42] <NightHawk> BYE!
[12:18:45] <lerneaen_hydra> a-l-p-h-a: should be in the kb range
[12:19:06] <a-l-p-h-a> I remember mouse drivers being in the < 40K range...
[12:19:08] <a-l-p-h-a> good ole DOS days
[12:19:45] <a-l-p-h-a> OMG.
[12:19:57] <a-l-p-h-a> I just downloaded the drivers, and it tells me there's an UPDATE already?!?! wtf
[12:20:17] <skunkworks> lerneaen_hydra: one of these http://youtube.com/watch?v=FF0ibOJkv3U
[12:22:23] <skunkworks> http://youtube.com/watch?v=5h5a1DpIiUk
[12:26:13] <alex_joni> a-l-p-h-a: same here for a logitech keyb&mouse.. ~40MB
[12:26:19] <alex_joni> but it's java.. that's why :(
[12:26:30] <a-l-p-h-a> alex_joni, this IS a Logitech mouse driver.
[12:26:33] <alex_joni> I'm not sure who the genius was to write keyboard drivers in java
[12:26:36] <a-l-p-h-a> I bought the G5 mouse yesterday
[12:26:59] <anonimasu> lol
[12:27:08] <anonimasu> some CS student
[12:27:09] <anonimasu> they all love java
[12:27:17] <a-l-p-h-a> it's cause it's all they know
[12:27:18] <a-l-p-h-a> seriously
[12:27:25] <anonimasu> I think java's a fad..
[12:27:50] <anonimasu> or whatever you call it..
[12:27:53] <anonimasu> "fashion language"
[12:27:55] <alex_joni> fag
[12:27:56] <alex_joni> :P
[12:28:13] <anonimasu> yeah "fad" is right
[12:28:17] <anonimasu> sure it teaches oo programming
[12:28:38] <anonimasu> but wouldnt it be better to teach them a actual language they might be able to use in the real workd?
[12:28:42] <anonimasu> world..
[12:29:06] <lerneaen_hydra> c or c++ would be nice, but nooo....
[12:29:17] <lerneaen_hydra> * lerneaen_hydra had java last period
[12:29:28] <a-l-p-h-a> java is actually used in the real world...
[12:29:38] <a-l-p-h-a> albeit, many times for the wrong reason.
[12:31:31] <a-l-p-h-a> oh look! it's cross platform compatible. great. if the libraries are written for that OS... that's the same reason for C, C++... they're cross platform as well. BUT the libraries aren't.
[12:33:27] <alex_joni> a-l-p-h-a: but not binaries
[12:33:34] <alex_joni> I think people are too lazy to crosscompile
[12:34:14] <a-l-p-h-a> There's no cure for human laziness, or stupidity.
[12:34:30] <a-l-p-h-a> Well, there is eugenics.
[12:34:59] <a-l-p-h-a> but I'm with the laziness crowd... so I'd be killed off too.
[12:35:17] <anonimasu> a-l-p-h-a: the holocaust would look like a little thing when you were done killing all the lazy people
[12:35:29] <anonimasu> and the stupid ones..
[12:35:48] <a-l-p-h-a> anonimasu, :)
[12:35:51] <a-l-p-h-a> glad it'd never will happen.
[12:37:15] <anonimasu> bbl
[12:37:20] <a-l-p-h-a> I have a friend that is a racist fucker... I don't even know why I'm a friend of his. He's this scottish guy, that once said "Blacks should thank white people, for genetically tailoring them to what they are today in North America." He was referring to slavery. Err... just thinking about this conversation makes me angry
[12:37:54] <a-l-p-h-a> that's it... he's being blocked, and deleted off my msn, and cell phone
[12:54:11] <lerneaen_hydra> a-l-p-h-a: http://www.qdb.us/80675
[12:55:06] <lerneaen_hydra> why is it that for nearly every situation I can think of a bash quote?
[13:01:00] <a-l-p-h-a> HAHAHAHAHAH
[13:04:09] <a-l-p-h-a> wb anonimas1
[13:36:59] <rafa_> good morning for all people in chat
[13:37:48] <tom1> good morning rafa, how are you today?
[13:38:00] <rafa_> good
[13:38:03] <rafa_> and you?
[13:38:19] <tom1> me too, on phone now
[13:38:31] <rafa_> ok
[13:38:39] <rafa_> friends
[13:38:55] <rafa_> the project for us is very goof
[13:38:59] <rafa_> good
[13:39:00] <rafa_> :)
[13:39:41] <rafa_> congratulations for all user and developpers
[13:41:02] <rafa_> please
[13:41:08] <rafa_> watt is xenomai?
[13:41:19] <rafa_> used with emc
[13:52:25] <rafa_> ?
[13:59:00] <rafa_> ?
[14:24:07] <tom1> rafa, xenomai is a new version of rtai, emc does not use it. emc users do not know about it.
[14:28:20] <rafa_> ok
[14:28:53] <rafa_> some configs have xenomai
[14:29:08] <rafa_> for this i sked it
[14:31:22] <tom1> i read xenomai is not rtai, so i know nothing about it. you can look for information at www.xenomai.org
[14:31:50] <SWPadnos> I believe Xenomai is a "continuation" of RTAI
[14:32:07] <SWPadnos> there is an RTAI "skn" for Xenomai, so you can use it almost identically to the way RTAI is used
[14:32:14] <SWPadnos> that was supposed to say "skin"
[14:33:04] <SWPadnos> they have several interfaces to Xenomai, which more or less mimic various other RT systems (like RTAI, Posix.1b, VXWorks, ...)
[14:33:39] <rafa_> ok thanks
[14:33:44] <rafa_> rtai dead?
[14:33:45] <SWPadnos> sure
[14:33:57] <SWPadnos> no, I believe RTAI is still being developed
[14:34:33] <rafa_> xenomai is type xorg
[14:34:40] <rafa_> for exemple:
[14:34:52] <rafa_> xfree exists
[14:35:04] <SWPadnos> ok - could be like that
[14:35:05] <rafa_> but some distro uses Xorg
[14:35:13] <SWPadnos> it started as a fork of RTAI,I think
[14:35:28] <rafa_> Its a ideia?
[14:35:48] <SWPadnos> ?
[14:36:07] <rafa_> no
[14:36:08] <rafa_> sory
[14:36:24] <rafa_> my idea is correct
[14:36:35] <rafa_> my comparation?
[14:36:45] <SWPadnos> I think the XFree86 / XOrg analogy is a good one
[14:37:18] <rafa_> ok
[14:37:42] <rafa_> new versions off emc can with xenomai?
[14:38:11] <tom1> xenomai not used with emc, xenomai is very young, this page shows only 3 drivers available, http://www.xenomai.org/index.php/Driver_documentation
[14:38:18] <SWPadnos> I don't believe that anyone is working toward that, but it should be possible (since Xenomai can behave like RTAI)
[14:38:55] <rafa_> thanks for all information
[14:45:17] <tom1> ah, it has some can stuff and paul has talked about it
[14:52:06] <tom1> the thread mentions: disabling kernel SMI ( System Maintenance Interrupt ) may be reduce latency: esp on intel chipsets like Intel 82845 845 (Brookdale) , use this option in kernel cfg Globally disable SMI (NEW)
[14:52:16] <SWPadnos> sounds familiar :)
[14:58:02] <anonimas1> hm
[14:58:08] <anonimas1> that can stuff sounds really neat..
[15:06:42] <tom1> doppelgangers!
[15:39:08] <tomp> all the step & freq genr8rs done http://imagebin.org/8151
[15:47:33] <tomp> wiki page for geda-hal updated ( tbz2 and pix ) http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?HalSchematicsUsingGschem
[16:09:23] <Dallur> tomp:: nice :D
[16:10:05] <tomp> thanks, making the simple versions now (jmk suggested we'd save a few trees if they were smaller :)
[16:16:24] <chr0n1c> yo yo
[16:16:54] <chr0n1c> thought i would stop by while i was on my lunch break and say thanks for emc again!
[16:17:20] <chr0n1c> ... and i have a question on where to find a cheap shaft coupler for my z-axis...
[16:17:53] <chr0n1c> it cann be solid aluminum or whatever... i need 1/4" to 3/16" with set screws to hold it together
[16:18:16] <chr0n1c> i don't really need the 28 dollar one from mcmaster carr
[16:18:22] <chr0n1c> ;)
[16:19:21] <chr0n1c> last night i ran the axis demo g-code, with a pencil and i had to do the z axis manually
[16:19:27] <chr0n1c> but, it came out awesome
[16:19:40] <lerneaen_hydra> heh, semi-cnc
[16:19:59] <chr0n1c> lol, as soon as i get the z axis coupler i will have full 3 axis
[16:20:19] <lerneaen_hydra> you could always hire a chinese or something to do the third axis
[16:20:29] <chr0n1c> well.. i would go korean
[16:20:37] <chr0n1c> north korean with my z axis labor
[16:20:41] <Dallur> semi-manual plotter
[16:21:29] <chr0n1c> i could make one with my cordless drill... but wowuld that create some binding if the hole were off?
[16:21:39] <chr0n1c> off axially**
[16:21:50] <chr0n1c> i think so...
[16:22:11] <lerneaen_hydra> what's the coupling box do? just tranfer the power from the stepper/servo to the axis screw, 1:1?
[16:22:15] <chr0n1c> yeah
[16:22:31] <chr0n1c> i need 1/4" through to 3/16" through
[16:22:40] <chr0n1c> on a half or 5/8" rod
[16:22:42] <lerneaen_hydra> I think I saw some that someone here had made
[16:22:51] <lerneaen_hydra> on the wiki
[16:22:55] <chr0n1c> about 1" long
[16:23:20] <chr0n1c> i made one but i don't have a lathe with a tailstock anymore
[16:23:28] <chr0n1c> and i need another
[16:23:43] <chr0n1c> actually no lathe at all
[16:25:20] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm, not having a lathe complicates matters
[16:25:58] <chr0n1c> i was thinking someone with a lathe could make one and i could send 10 bux paypal or something
[16:27:53] <lerneaen_hydra> the US people here are very quiet right now
[16:30:37] <chr0n1c> <- dayton, ohio USA
[16:41:23] <chr0n1c> is there an easy dxf to g-code for ubuntu?
[16:41:44] <chr0n1c> i found qcad last night
[16:41:52] <chr0n1c> it's seems awesome
[16:42:21] <chr0n1c> i have not palyed with it much
[16:42:26] <chr0n1c> played*
[16:46:31] <renesis> is okay, qcad
[16:47:08] <tomp> there are some tools, still kinda beta state, look at http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Cam, but realize the 'trick' is to put the geometry on a special layer, use some code to find that layer, parse out the 'contour', translate to gcode. some of the tools you'll find will do one of theose things, none do it all yet.
[17:07:39] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[17:41:47] <feoc> hello
[17:43:01] <feoc> any one about?
[17:43:17] <feoc> still having a nightmare with this PID tuning :(
[17:43:37] <lerneaen_hydra> * lerneaen_hydra hands feoc a sledgehammer
[17:43:54] <feoc> feels like its going that way
[17:44:16] <cradek> what have you tried and where are you stuck?
[17:45:26] <feoc> well iv got the z axis motoring about albeit not as fast as i think it should on generally guessed values
[17:45:49] <feoc> but that doesnt work on the other axis even with the same motors encoders and screw pitch
[17:45:57] <feoc> so im lost
[17:46:09] <feoc> i dont really understand what im doing
[17:46:25] <feoc> im getting quite fustrated with it
[17:46:26] <cradek> ok
[17:46:35] <cradek> it sounds like you have not done any actual PID tuning?
[17:46:50] <feoc> iv read the docs and the theory but im not really sure how to do it in practice
[17:47:06] <feoc> yah prolly
[17:47:17] <cradek> do you have your feedback paths right - with motors off, when you turn the screws does the position in emc move the right way?
[17:47:37] <cradek> btw where are you?
[17:48:02] <ds3> hey cradek, http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~huny/LatheCycle.txt... can you tell me if that's enough info before i put it on the wiki?
[17:48:04] <feoc> i can move the motors manually and get encoder movment
[17:48:22] <feoc> not sure what is the right way tho
[17:49:40] <cradek> did you calculate your correct input scale, considering the encoder resolution and screw pitch?
[17:49:46] <feoc> yeah i did
[17:50:00] <feoc> altho possibly not exact
[17:50:08] <feoc> its roughly right
[17:50:25] <cradek> ok so it seems right-ish when you move the axes by hand?
[17:50:32] <feoc> yah
[17:50:35] <cradek> ok
[17:50:38] <feoc> i measured it with a DTI
[17:51:13] <feoc> it roughly matches what emc is saying its moved by
[17:51:24] <cradek> ds3: definitely put it on the wiki, we can hash out any details later
[17:51:30] <cradek> feoc: ok great
[17:51:52] <ds3> ok
[17:52:23] <cradek> feoc: what gui are you using?
[17:52:33] <feoc> tkemc
[17:52:45] <cradek> are you at the machine?
[17:52:53] <feoc> no the machine is down in the workshop
[17:53:11] <cradek> ok that's going to make it much less convenient for us to work on it together...
[17:53:47] <feoc> i might be able to setup wireless net via my laptop on my phone
[17:53:55] <feoc> but not till tommorow now
[17:54:18] <cradek> just curious what city are you in?
[17:54:26] <feoc> england
[17:54:34] <cradek> that's a big city :-)
[17:54:50] <feoc> not really in a city :)
[17:54:54] <cradek> ah
[17:55:04] <feoc> east midlands area
[17:55:28] <cradek> ok let's talk about X first, let me try to outline what to do
[17:55:42] <feoc> ok
[17:56:08] <cradek> first, make sure it moves in the right direction - you can check this by turning the screw by hand - positive X is the tool moving to the right so the table moves to the left
[17:57:15] <feoc> ok
[17:57:19] <feoc> if thats wrong ?
[17:57:22] <cradek> is this a bridgeport size machine?
[17:57:44] <feoc> bigger
[17:57:46] <cradek> if it's wrong, negate your INPUT_SCALE or swap the A/B signals from the encoder
[17:58:13] <cradek> ok so it's a machine to be respected/feared
[17:58:16] <feoc> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/rallyslag/31012007175.jpg
[17:58:32] <cradek> nice, I remember that photo
[17:58:56] <cradek> how is your estop and limit switch setup?
[17:59:54] <feoc> currently by being very close to the power switch
[18:00:24] <feoc> there are limit switches for the servo amp
[18:01:10] <cradek> ok so it will turn off the amps if it gets near end of travel, no matter what you and emc are doing?
[18:01:24] <feoc> yah
[18:01:30] <cradek> ok that's good
[18:01:46] <cradek> even the most experienced folks can get some runaways when setting up a new machine
[18:03:15] <cradek> when you have your feedback path working right, you should be able to set a very low P gain (I,D,FF0,FF1,FF2 all zero) and get some motion when you jog very slowly
[18:03:46] <feoc> yeah i can do that
[18:03:59] <cradek> do you mean you have that already?
[18:04:05] <feoc> small increments only
[18:04:13] <feoc> anything larger and i get an follow error
[18:04:29] <cradek> how small?
[18:04:43] <feoc> cant remember
[18:04:44] <SWPadnos> you can try setting FERROR very high (like several inches) while tuning
[18:04:53] <feoc> think it was about .010 inch
[18:04:56] <cradek> like 1mm?
[18:05:03] <feoc> yah
[18:05:04] <cradek> oh you're in inches ok
[18:05:31] <feoc> inch or mm is fine
[18:05:32] <cradek> ok that may be within your allowed following error (FERROR in the ini file)
[18:05:41] <feoc> it just i only had a metric dti
[18:05:48] <cradek> which units are you using in your ini file?
[18:05:55] <feoc> inch
[18:06:00] <cradek> ok
[18:06:06] <cradek> you usually write gcode in inch?
[18:06:37] <feoc> im just starting out
[18:06:39] <SWPadnos> out of curiosity, have you looked at this wiki page? http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Tuning_EMC2/HAL_PID_Loops
[18:06:41] <feoc> so im not fussed
[18:06:47] <cradek> ok
[18:07:03] <feoc> i did yeah but its only half written
[18:07:10] <SWPadnos> heh - well, there is that :)
[18:07:14] <cradek> it might be most natural to make your ini file in terms of your machine's native units (the units of the leadscrews)
[18:07:23] <cradek> otherwise your scales will be funny non-integer numbers
[18:07:36] <feoc> ok
[18:08:07] <feoc> its an american machine so its probably inches anyway
[18:08:25] <cradek> SWPadnos is right - you can open up FERROR limits, to maybe .5 or 1 inch
[18:08:58] <cradek> then you should use halscope to plot your commanded position and feedback position while you do a little jog
[18:09:12] <cradek> if they move in the same direction and about the same amount, you're on your way
[18:09:32] <feoc> i dont understand how to use halscope
[18:09:44] <cradek> have you used a real o'scope?
[18:09:55] <feoc> not since my school days
[18:10:09] <cradek> that's a yes then! you'll have to get familiar with halscope to tune. It's very well documented in the manual
[18:10:18] <feoc> many sleeps ago
[18:10:18] <cradek> it really works a lot like a real scope.
[18:10:31] <feoc> ok
[18:11:30] <cradek> you should expect to fiddle with plots of little jogs in halscope for a few hours before you get much real motion.
[18:11:35] <feoc> what do i need to do?
[18:12:53] <cradek> darn I wish you had emc in front of you, we could do a plot of the simulated servos
[18:14:00] <SWPadnos> one question: what kind of drivers (analog, step/dir ...) and hardware (parallel port, Mesa, Vigilant ...) are you using?
[18:14:13] <feoc> should have probaly started with a smaller machine
[18:14:22] <feoc> analog
[18:14:24] <feoc> mesa
[18:14:27] <SWPadnos> ok
[18:14:41] <feoc> and uses velocity
[18:15:02] <feoc> according to the servo drive manual
[18:15:44] <tomp> simple gEDA freq&step gnr8rs http://imagebin.org/8153
[18:15:45] <tomp> wiki updated http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?HalSchematicsUsingGschem
[18:16:15] <SWPadnos> ok. I'm not sure exactly how that affects things, but I imagine it means you need to set the accel (current) on the drive, and tell EMC what the resulting accel limit is
[18:16:31] <SWPadnos> that'll help EMC to not ask for things the motors can't do
[18:16:38] <SWPadnos> (motors and drives, that is)
[18:17:22] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/tuned.png
[18:17:32] <cradek> feoc: here's the kind of thing you'll be considering
[18:17:39] <cradek> this is a short .010" jog
[18:17:52] <cradek> red and blue are commanded and feedback position respectively
[18:18:02] <cradek> you can see they track very nicely together
[18:18:13] <cradek> green is the following error, which is the difference between commanded and feedback
[18:18:52] <cradek> scale on the green is much expanded - 500 microinches/division
[18:19:04] <cradek> so you can see the actual position stays within 500 uinch of the commanded
[18:19:32] <cradek> once you get this kind of plot (and yours will not look so good at first!) you can experiment with the PID numbers to get good tracking
[18:19:51] <SWPadnos> an important point on that half-finished tuning page is that you really need to make sure things work from the ground up: feedback scale needs to be correct, output scaling should be in some useful units. changing any of these scaling parameters down the line will change the needed PID coefficients
[18:19:57] <feoc> how do i adjust the plot ?
[18:20:16] <cradek> by tuning the PID
[18:20:49] <cradek> you should have some knowledge about how PID uses feedback position to adjust the motor power to make the axis track the position you want
[18:21:00] <cradek> that will help you understand what you're seeing
[18:21:07] <feoc> ok
[18:22:29] <feoc> when it says increase pid till you get ossilation
[18:22:40] <cradek> increase *P*
[18:23:02] <feoc> where do you see ossilation in halscope?
[18:23:02] <feoc> or is it an obvious vibration
[18:23:08] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/oscillation.png
[18:23:11] <cradek> I was just doing that
[18:23:22] <cradek> I increased P to mistune the simulated motors
[18:23:29] <feoc> ok
[18:23:33] <cradek> you can see the red line is the same (commanded position generated by emc)
[18:23:36] <feoc> are you gonna be about in about an hour?
[18:23:38] <cradek> the blue oscillates around it
[18:23:40] <feoc> my dinners ready
[18:24:10] <SWPadnos> in very simple terms, higher P means "try to go there faster", higher I means "if we're off a bit, then correct sooner rather than later", and higher D means - err - I'm not sure I can put it into words :)
[18:24:58] <feoc> bbiab
[18:25:01] <feoc> cheers for the help
[18:25:03] <SWPadnos> see you
[18:25:04] <feoc> wont be too long
[18:25:11] <cradek> ok
[18:26:34] <mtedad> what were you running to get rbg plots with servo tuning?
[18:26:51] <cradek> halscope
[18:26:50] <lerneaen_hydra> cradek: emc has simulated motors?
[18:26:58] <cradek> lerneaen_hydra: yes there's a sim servo config
[18:27:02] <lerneaen_hydra> how detailed simulation?
[18:27:09] <lerneaen_hydra> what does it take into account?
[18:27:19] <cradek> I don't know - I haven't even looked at the hal file
[18:27:43] <lerneaen_hydra> motor inertia and some friction factor proportional to velocity?
[18:27:45] <cradek> I think it's very basic
[18:27:48] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, ok
[18:28:21] <cradek> lowpass blocks to simulate inertia
[18:28:33] <lerneaen_hydra> ah, I see
[18:28:45] <cradek> yep that's it
[18:28:50] <mtedad> will it work with the motors on the machine, not simmed?
[18:29:08] <cradek> mtedad: yes, that's how you tune pid in emc
[18:29:40] <mtedad> i felt my way thru.
[18:29:58] <cradek> without making these plots?
[18:30:17] <mtedad> hand eye coordination.
[18:30:45] <cradek> how good did you get the tracking? seems like it would be hard to evaluate the following error
[18:31:10] <mtedad> crude i know.
[18:32:10] <mtedad> keeping fe low adjusting to get rid of ferrs
[18:32:29] <cradek> ah I see
[18:32:37] <cradek> (that sounds very hard)
[18:32:37] <lerneaen_hydra> how do you know when the D is large enough? no erratic motion?
[18:33:12] <cradek> lerneaen_hydra: D affects overshoot a lot, you can see it on the plot
[18:33:15] <mtedad> by eye watching it reach in pos.
[18:33:58] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm, so a high D makes it slow to reach the destination?
[18:34:07] <cradek> D is the finicky setting. It prevents oscillation as you raise the gain (P)
[18:34:19] <cradek> too high a D will oscillate too
[18:34:38] <lerneaen_hydra> I take it D is the derivative of the current velocity, relative to the destination point?
[18:35:18] <SWPadnos> the thng to remember is that all the PID terms are relative to the position error (there's one level of differentiation before you start)
[18:35:28] <cradek> derivative of error
[18:35:28] <lerneaen_hydra> oh
[18:35:30] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm
[18:35:34] <cradek> right
[18:35:37] <tomp> each term (PID) seen on a graph http://www.ctc-control.com/customer/elearning/servotut/pid.asp (pete v's suggestion)
[18:35:56] <SWPadnos> FF* terms are relative to commanded position though, just to make things harder to understand :)
[18:35:59] <cradek> in emc you generally use pid in a position loop, so it's position error
[18:36:55] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm, I can't seem to see how D would affect overshoot more than just jitter/erratic motion
[18:37:02] <alex_joni> hi all
[18:37:18] <lerneaen_hydra> 'lo
[18:37:19] <cradek> lerneaen_hydra: well no matter what, don't mistake me for someone who knows what he's talking about
[18:37:36] <lerneaen_hydra> haha, too late
[18:37:43] <cradek> I've tuned exactly one machine :-)
[18:37:46] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:38:09] <cradek> the results are very good, but I spent hours on it
[18:38:13] <mtedad> here's the my problem tool change--in auto when last block has been highlighted red and in position according to the ro's, block does not advance to next line--t1 m06
[18:38:17] <SWPadnos> I've been involved in tuning several machines, all of which were large power supplies :)
[18:38:37] <alex_joni> mtedad: what config are you using?
[18:38:51] <cradek> mtedad: only lines that cause motion are ever highlighted. aside from the highlighting does everything work right?
[18:39:43] <mtedad> don't know haven't seen everything work right yet.
[18:39:56] <mtedad> it positions
[18:40:05] <tomp> if this is any help.. you have analog amps, they can be tuned before adding emc, rather than coming to emc with a handlfull of problems, come to emc with something you are confident of, and then you know that any problems are only the emc integration.
[18:40:34] <lerneaen_hydra> cradek: are non-motion lines really never highlighted? hypothetically, if it could highlight it for miniscule times (µS times) would it be highlighted when doing, say, a g54?
[18:40:51] <cradek> lerneaen_hydra: really, never
[18:40:57] <lerneaen_hydra> ah, ok
[18:41:22] <mtedad> high lighted red or blue
[18:41:27] <cradek> lerneaen_hydra: since the highlighting follows the motion of the machine itself, and not the gcode interpretation, "g54" has no effect (causes no motion)
[18:41:39] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, ok
[18:42:07] <cradek> showing the currently-interpreting line would mean nothing to the user, so we don't
[18:42:15] <lerneaen_hydra> hmm, that's true
[18:42:42] <cradek> brb
[18:44:10] <alex_joni> does anyone know wth molecules are?
[18:44:17] <SWPadnos> groups of atoms
[18:44:21] <lerneaen_hydra> O_o
[18:44:25] <lerneaen_hydra> like SWPadnos said
[18:44:29] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: inside a cisco catalyst
[18:44:32] <SWPadnos> no
[18:44:40] <lerneaen_hydra> haha, that's something else
[18:44:49] <alex_joni> sorry for the uppercase..
[18:44:49] <SWPadnos> heh - damfino
[18:44:52] <lerneaen_hydra> haha wtf
[18:45:00] <alex_joni> lerneaen_hydra: exactly.. wtf
[18:45:51] <tomp> free molecules on indole rings will get you high :) beware
[18:46:26] <tomp> http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/psilocybin/psilocybinh.htm
[18:55:16] <alex_joni> http://web.nether.net/lists/cisco-nsp/11849.html
[19:00:32] <cradek> cd /etc/uucp
[19:00:34] <cradek> grr
[19:05:20] <alex_joni> *sigh* no cisco for me it seems
[19:08:22] <anonimas1> hi
[19:09:21] <anonimas1> :/
[19:11:14] <ds3> alex_joni: open it up and reseat stuff
[19:12:01] <alex_joni> ds3: nothing to reset
[19:12:10] <alex_joni> I used a console to get so far
[19:12:19] <ds3> not reset
[19:12:19] <ds3> reseat
[19:12:26] <alex_joni> nothing to reseat
[19:12:29] <ds3> as in pull stuff out of socket and reinsert
[19:12:30] <alex_joni> everything soldered
[19:12:40] <ds3> older versions have daughter cards
[19:13:10] <anonimas1> get a magnifying glass
[19:13:22] <ds3> they like using stuff that looks like a memory module
[19:13:27] <alex_joni> anonimas1: think I can see the molecules?
[19:13:37] <alex_joni> ds3: I located the memory.. 5 chips smt
[19:14:58] <ds3> damn cost reductions
[19:31:30] <feoc> hello
[19:31:33] <feoc> im back
[19:37:52] <cradek> hi
[19:38:00] <cradek> so what's your plan now
[19:39:03] <feoc> cry
[19:39:14] <cradek> what next?
[19:39:43] <feoc> not sure tbh
[19:40:06] <feoc> going to the workshop tommorow so i can try work on it then
[19:40:46] <feoc> when your tuning pid what sort of increments do you incease P by ?
[19:41:33] <SWPadnos> safest would be to multiply by 1.1 or so each time, but it's probably faster to do binary search
[19:41:52] <SWPadnos> (multiply by 2 until you see oscillation, then split the difference in half every iteration after that)
[19:41:52] <feoc> binary search?
[19:42:17] <feoc> ok
[19:42:27] <feoc> so what hal pin do i watch for oscillation ?
[19:42:36] <cradek> be careful - oscillation of a big machine can be very dangerous
[19:42:40] <feoc> or is i a pysical motor juddering
[19:42:50] <SWPadnos> it will be both
[19:43:06] <SWPadnos> that's why I said smallis increments (like 1.1) are safer :)
[19:43:09] <SWPadnos> smallish
[19:43:28] <cradek> be sure to set your following error no more than a few inches, so it will abort if it goes nuts
[19:43:30] <feoc> will i see the oscilation without jogging the motor?
[19:43:43] <cradek> maybe not - you may have to poke it to get it started
[19:43:59] <feoc> ah ok
[19:44:08] <cradek> but a tiny incremental jog would be enough to start it
[19:44:37] <SWPadnos> hmmm - I was thinking that you want a slightly larger move, like an inch or something, to get it started
[19:45:27] <feoc> what sort of number of P would i expect to see oscillation ?
[19:45:28] <SWPadnos> this is why a bare HAL is faster for this kind of thing. the PID parameters can be tweaked "live", but EMC requires a restart for each change
[19:45:39] <cradek> no it doesn't
[19:45:58] <SWPadnos> oh right - you can use the tuning application
[19:46:01] <feoc> SWPadnos im using the calibration panel with the test mode
[19:46:01] <cradek> pid is inside hal, you can set it with halcmd or the tuning program
[19:46:03] <SWPadnos> I often forget about that
[19:46:21] <SWPadnos> righto - /me wrong
[19:46:28] <cradek> YOU'RE WRONG!
[19:46:31] <cradek> haha
[19:46:31] <SWPadnos> I
[19:46:36] <SWPadnos> I"M WRONG, I SAY!!!
[19:46:40] <SWPadnos> heh
[19:46:41] <feoc> lol
[19:46:47] <lerneaen_hydra> cool, so there's a slider bar/input box where you can change it in "realtime"?
[19:46:48] <cradek> ok feoc, quit picking on SWPadnos
[19:46:57] <cradek> (meanie)
[19:47:03] <feoc> cradek oh alright ;)
[19:47:19] <cradek> lerneaen_hydra: text entry
[19:47:23] <lerneaen_hydra> cool
[19:47:41] <cradek> not sure if it rewrites the ini file to save it - it might
[19:47:46] <lerneaen_hydra> insta-apply? just edit the value and it's done?
[19:47:50] <cradek> yes
[19:47:57] <feoc> tell you what by time i get to grips with this bloody PID tuning il be converting my house to CNC just out of principle
[19:48:08] <SWPadnos> sounds good
[19:48:13] <cradek> feoc: yeah we all do that
[19:48:16] <SWPadnos> doors open automatically and stuff
[19:48:21] <cradek> feoc: don't be in a hurry - it's fun to learn about
[19:48:34] <lerneaen_hydra> SWPadnos: with a pid loop and a dedicated computer of course
[19:48:52] <feoc> cradek but its really fustrating when you dunno whats going on
[19:49:01] <SWPadnos> nah - one computer for all doors and windows - a P4 quad-core/3.6 GHz shuold be enough for that
[19:49:52] <feoc> ok im gonna go watch a film and give my head a break from PID loops
[19:50:02] <feoc> ill be back tommorow im sure of i
[19:50:03] <feoc> it
[19:50:08] <cradek> feoc: well I doubt you could get help from smarter people anywhere else :-)
[19:50:12] <SWPadnos> see you then
[19:50:23] <cradek> (especially at this price)
[19:50:34] <feoc> yah much appreciated
[19:50:37] <cradek> goodnight, seeya
[19:50:56] <feoc> hopefully ill be able to help others once i have a clue
[19:51:16] <cradek> writing quickstart/ pid tuning instructions maybe!
[19:51:30] <feoc> my mate was saying he wants to convert a 26 ft bed lathe to CNC once iv gotten mine sorted
[19:51:35] <SWPadnos> here's a place with several papers - possibly more theoretical than you want, but very good info:
[19:51:40] <SWPadnos> http://www.wescottdesign.com/articles.html
[19:52:03] <feoc> ty
[19:52:05] <SWPadnos> it's less about tuning than writing PID software, but the foundation is very good
[19:52:31] <feoc> its the HAL/EMC specific stuff i want to know now
[19:52:39] <SWPadnos> oh, well that's easy ;)
[19:52:45] <feoc> ill venture more into it later on
[19:52:46] <alex_joni> how much does it usually take for a BIOS to clear (once the batt has been removed) ?
[19:53:02] <feoc> cyas later
[19:53:15] <SWPadnos> a few seconds if you have a battery shorting jumper, longer if you don't
[19:53:20] <feoc> thanks all
[19:53:42] <SWPadnos> see you - enjoy the movie
[19:53:54] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: I can't find the shorter
[19:54:04] <alex_joni> btw, this is a laptop
[19:54:06] <SWPadnos> ok, then "longer" ;)
[19:54:18] <alex_joni> so even getting to the batt took a while
[19:54:21] <SWPadnos> oh, removed laptop battery or CMOS battery (or both?)
[19:54:25] <alex_joni> both
[19:54:37] <alex_joni> after 5-10 mins no change
[19:54:46] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[19:55:03] <SWPadnos> dunno then - never tried to wipe laptop CMOS settings
[19:55:32] <alex_joni> I saw some instructions for ones with dip switches, but this one has none
[19:57:13] <alex_joni> "If you do it by pulling the battery you're probably going to have to wait several days for the charge to dissipate." eek
[19:57:25] <SWPadnos> heh, that qualifies as "longer", I think
[19:58:24] <anonimas1> alex_joni: what did you do to your laptop`?
[19:59:52] <alex_joni> not my laptop
[19:59:59] <alex_joni> :-/
[20:14:01] <alex_joni> I can't even find the cmos chip :(
[20:15:01] <SWPadnos> it may be integrated into the chipset or something
[20:18:59] <cradek> (sorry, obvious) did you try shorting the battery terminals
[20:19:24] <SWPadnos> on the computer, not the battery ;)
[20:20:15] <SWPadnos> hmmm. it may be time to restart Mozilla. I think 432M of memory is too much
[20:20:18] <SWPadnos> brb
[20:20:58] <alex_joni> yay.. got it working :)
[20:21:12] <alex_joni> had to start it on AC power with the batt removed
[20:21:19] <alex_joni> after 10 mins of waiting
[20:22:17] <SWPadnos> ah, much better
[20:22:33] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: got it working :)
[20:22:39] <SWPadnos> great - what did you have to do?
[20:22:55] <alex_joni> remove the batt, keep it out for about 10 minutes, then start on AC (no batt)
[20:23:03] <SWPadnos> ah - interesting
[20:25:25] <DavidMB> Just getting to grips with the programatic side of gcode in 2.1.4, does anyone have a list of what mathematical functions can be used?
[20:26:25] <cradek> http://www.isd.mel.nist.gov/personnel/kramer/pubs/RS274NGC_3.web/RS274NGC_33a.html#1001430
[20:27:59] <cradek> beware: angles are in degrees, and ATAN is actually atan2
[20:28:30] <cradek> used like ATAN[dy]/[dx]
[20:29:33] <DavidMB> Thanks cradek, was this functionality in EMC 1, don't remember seeing it, but it sure is nice to use, cuts out heaps of coding.
[20:29:55] <cradek> EMC1 had the math, but no loops/subroutines
[20:31:20] <DavidMB> Thought I hadn't seen it before, spent most of the weekend playing with it in the garage.
[20:31:39] <a-l-p-h-a> this is funny... the recruiter is asking me for J2EE people to help fill positions that require that skillset.
[20:31:45] <cradek> it's easy to miss, if you aren't looking for it and don't flip through the docs
[20:32:21] <cradek> DavidMB: there's some neat code in useful_subroutines.ngc (in the emc2 distribution)
[20:32:39] <cradek> for slot and hole milling
[20:34:00] <DavidMB> I looked at them, gave me enough clues to get going, makes surfacing wood a breeze, ended up writing a subroutine that takes 3 parameters and it does the rest.
[20:34:14] <cradek> neat
[20:35:17] <DavidMB> The trig functions mean that 'spirograph' output should be possible, also generating a surface rather than encoding it.
[20:35:38] <cradek> yes I've seen both of those things done
[20:35:53] <cradek> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/spiro.ngc
[20:36:23] <DavidMB> all I need now is a spindle that is quite enough to run at night ;-)
[20:36:50] <cradek> or just look at the preview in AXIS...
[20:37:58] <DavidMB> Good idea, didn't think of that, I generally use tkemc, a hang over from earlier versions, just not got used to anything else yet.
[20:38:14] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/spiro.png
[20:39:14] <DavidMB> That would make neat engravings on glass.
[20:39:32] <cradek> have you done that? I've always wondered how it would work
[20:39:46] <cradek> carbide underwater maybe?
[20:41:36] <DavidMB> No I haven't but I guess a diamond burr similar to a dental tool and cold air, most glass engravers use a light water mist to control the dust but I dont think heat is a problem.
[20:42:28] <NightHawk> Good Evening to all!! Here in Italy is 22:43
[20:44:00] <DavidMB> Good to communicate cradek, gotta go and play. Thanks for the links.
[20:44:06] <alex_joni> 23:43 < NightHawk> Good Evening to all!! Here in Italy is 22:43
[20:44:07] <cradek> welcome, have fun
[20:56:22] <alex_joni> as crazy as this sounds.. it worked for me too
[20:56:26] <alex_joni> http://www.techspot.com/vb/all/windows/t-18046-Toshiba-Satellite-1135S1552-WiFi-Networking-Problem.html
[21:10:22] <alex_joni> hey Rugludallur
[21:10:27] <alex_joni> how's the plasma?
[21:23:44] <Rugludallur> alex_joni: hey, not as fast as I wanted but it's moving along
[21:23:59] <Rugludallur> alex_joni: right now im trying to find out why gantrykins ain't working :P
[21:24:44] <Rugludallur> alex_joni: prepairing a replacement config for dallur-thc callec plasma-thc and a simpler generic stepper-gantry config
[21:26:51] <alex_joni> cool
[21:26:55] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is off to bed
[21:27:00] <alex_joni> good night all
[21:27:03] <Rugludallur> alex_joni: night
[21:27:27] <NightHawk> alex-joni : good night!
[21:28:19] <anonimas1> anonimas1 is now known as anonimasu
[21:33:54] <a-l-p-h-a> hmmmmmmmm... 3,973minutes on my cell phone bill....
[21:34:10] <a-l-p-h-a> thank goodness for unlimited incoming calls.
[21:44:02] <anonimasu> a-l-p-h-a: why the hell would you pay for receiving calls
[21:44:08] <anonimasu> a-l-p-h-a: that's some 3rd world thing..
[21:44:23] <anonimasu> 3rd world country..
[21:44:27] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: well for mobile when you are abroad
[21:44:42] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: yeah..
[21:45:03] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: but not when you live in usa and have a usa cellphone provider..
[21:45:19] <a-l-p-h-a> this is north america... it sucks, and they rip you off as much as possible
[21:47:20] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: :)
[22:04:02] <Rugludallur> do you guys know if jepler is on vacation or ?
[22:04:09] <SWPadnos> yes
[22:04:27] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: :D good for him
[22:04:48] <SWPadnos> yep. In Europe, with spotty iternet access
[22:07:29] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: hopefully he won't mind giving me a minute or two when he comes back, wrestling with gantrykins
[22:08:00] <SWPadnos> I'm sure he'll have some time, at some point :)
[22:08:11] <SWPadnos> what kind of trouble are you having with it?
[22:08:31] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: can't get it to move a slaved axis
[22:08:52] <SWPadnos> hmmm. one sec - lemme grab the source
[22:09:18] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: http://axis.unpy.net/01162326817
[22:09:56] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: if you want to use the sample ini/hal to you will want to edit the ini file and add the 4th axis
[22:10:14] <chr0n1c> what's up people?
[22:10:42] <SWPadnos> Rugludallur, I'm just proofreading the source at the moment
[22:11:26] <chr0n1c> uhh back from wowrk.. went to the tool store afterwards and spent $42 and got 6 inch calipers, a 1inch travel indicator an automatic center punch, and 4 clamps for holding paper down to my table...
[22:11:45] <chr0n1c> oh.. and a 6 inch combo square*
[22:12:18] <chr0n1c> anyways, thought i would share...
[22:14:51] <SWPadnos> Rugludallur, are you using his hal/ini files?
[22:15:10] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: I have tried those and my own
[22:15:34] <SWPadnos> also, when you say "add the 4th axis", is that because you have a rotary in addition to the 3+1 slaved axes?
[22:15:36] <SWPadnos> ok
[22:16:02] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: nope, add a 4th axis so that you have XYYZ
[22:16:11] <SWPadnos> ok, you shouldn't do that
[22:16:48] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: ok , undone
[22:16:50] <SWPadnos> you have only 3 axes controlled by the TP, the fourth one is slaved to another (as in his ini, AXES=3)
[22:17:10] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: hmm alex told me the 4th axis would be disabled unless I had it in the ini
[22:17:30] <SWPadnos> it is, though I'm not sure how far down that goes
[22:17:39] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: ok
[22:17:47] <SWPadnos> EMC should complain if you give an A word with only 3 axes defined
[22:18:07] <SWPadnos> I think the motion controller always exports 8 axes worth of pins though
[22:18:34] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: yeah,
[22:19:53] <SWPadnos> one thing to note - it looks like the highest numbered axis will provide the feedback to the motion controller (assuming feedback is run through inverse kinematics, which I suspect is required ;) )
[22:29:13] <Rugludallur> SwPadnos: so the highest (usually slaved) axis fb is used rather than the lower (master) fb, except in homing ?
[22:29:38] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: im homing they would probably use their respective feedbacks or ?
[22:29:43] <SWPadnos> it seems that the higer numbered joint replaces lower number joint feedback in inverse kins
[22:29:55] <SWPadnos> no, homing is a "problem", I think
[22:31:22] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: hmm I thought the whole point in gantry kinematics was to enable the homing sequence to sync up multiple drives
[22:31:58] <SWPadnos> that is a concern, but I'm pretty sure it isn't addressed in gantrykins
[22:32:26] <SWPadnos> effectively, all gantrykins does is duplicate one axis position on multiple motion controller outputs
[22:32:38] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: hmm then I wonder what benefits gantrykins offer over simply connecting a signal to multiple output pins
[22:32:47] <SWPadnos> good question :)
[22:32:52] <SWPadnos> in its current form, I'm not sure
[22:33:18] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: there might be some benefit in a closed loop system, but for stepper setups ....
[22:34:49] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: but currently I can't even get it to output a signal on multiple pins :P
[22:35:02] <SWPadnos> that's odd
[22:36:35] <SWPadnos> so using jeff's ini/hal files, you don't get any output on axis.3.motor-pos-cmd ?
[22:36:37] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: no matter what I do axis.3 cmd/fb stay's at 0
[22:37:00] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: yup
[22:37:27] <SWPadnos> ok, that's odd
[22:37:46] <SWPadnos> I can't help any more (if at all) for a while, I don't have an RT machine up at the moment
[22:39:48] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: Thanks for the help :D I'll try to see if I can dig around some more
[22:40:27] <SWPadnos> sure - dunno if I was actually any help, but what the heck :)
[22:40:52] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: hmmf actually I did just get it to move
[22:41:15] <SWPadnos> did you bump it? ;)
[22:42:32] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: no, I just tried running some simple gcode and it "moved"
[22:42:44] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: jogging is out and homing does not do anything
[22:43:10] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos but I did get some movement
[22:43:27] <SWPadnos> this will be dependent on the mode you're in (joint/world or teleop/whatever the other one is)
[22:43:58] <SWPadnos> it only works when kinematics are used, so joint mode is out (which I think it what homing uses)
[22:45:05] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: so i'm probably better off just hooking up to two hardware pins so I can jog and such, hmm
[22:45:43] <SWPadnos> could be, you'll have to improvise something to allow for homing
[22:46:32] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: well I can always do what I have done before, home (moving both axis) and then sync em up manually
[22:46:47] <SWPadnos> yep - I'm not sure there's another choice at the moment
[22:47:05] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: I must have misunderstood gantrykins :P
[22:48:27] <SWPadnos> you may have understood correctly, but there's a reason gantrykins isn't in CVS ;)
[22:48:54] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: well there actually is one advantage to this setup over the shared pin one, this one enables me to manually jog axis
[22:49:06] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: so I can sync em up with the motors
[22:49:26] <SWPadnos> you shouldn't be able to jog any joint beyond the number of axes in the ini
[22:49:52] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: true but if I add the axis in the ini
[22:50:08] <Rugludallur> SWPadnos: gantrykins should still work
[22:50:43] <SWPadnos> it will, but the interpreter won't throw out invalid code (that uses nonexistent rotary axes)
[22:54:56] <cradek> I think jepler intended that you could use 'home all' with gantrykins
[22:55:15] <cradek> if the homing parameters on the axes are the same, I think they will stay synchronized
[22:55:35] <SWPadnos> I think the issue is getting them synchronized in the first place
[22:55:57] <SWPadnos> assuming that no steps are lost, they would tend to stay in sync
[22:56:11] <SWPadnos> I guess my question is, are kins even used when homing?
[22:56:11] <cradek> isn't it the best you can do to move them together (from startup position) toward the switches?
[22:56:17] <cradek> no
[22:56:25] <SWPadnos> then this won't help, since it's a kins solution
[22:57:16] <cradek> well the kins hook the two joints together into one axis after all joints are homed
[22:57:35] <SWPadnos> right
[22:57:37] <cradek> (maybe I don't understand the problem)
[22:57:45] <cradek> that's unrelated to homing
[22:58:22] <Rugludallur> what gantrykins gives is the ability to configure each motor as a new axis, which gives individual control and homing , then it enables syncronised movement
[22:58:39] <cradek> each motor as its own joint
[22:59:10] <cradek> (in the ini file where it says axis, think joint)
[22:59:12] <Rugludallur> so in fact gantrykins does exactly what I need it to , as long as I use "home all"
[22:59:32] <cradek> ok
[22:59:47] <cradek> what's the problem/question? I'm lost now
[23:00:05] <Rugludallur> but it cripples jogging though, unless I figure out a way to jog two axis at the same time
[23:00:12] <SWPadnos> hmm. if you define 4 joints in the ini file, EMC thinks you mean 4 axes and won't reject code with A words
[23:00:20] <cradek> you jog in teleop mode
[23:00:30] <cradek> teleop means you jog axes, not joints
[23:00:47] <cradek> SWPadnos: emc never rejects code with undefined axes
[23:01:04] <SWPadnos> oh, in that case it's no problem ;)
[23:01:33] <Rugludallur> perfect: it turned out to be a pebkac after all
[23:01:40] <SWPadnos> I guess it just gets a following error as it tries to issue the movements
[23:01:54] <cradek> SWPadnos: right (not very nice failure mode)
[23:02:52] <cradek> Rugludallur: I think rotatekins is in cvs - it's nice to play with because you can easily see the difference between joint (free) and axis (teleop) mode
[23:03:10] <cradek> because when in teleop you "jog" in diagonals
[23:05:09] <Rugludallur> cradek: thanks, I will keep that in mind
[23:05:54] <cradek> I'm trying it :-)
[23:06:56] <Rugludallur> cradek: I'm going to start by reading the documentation again, see if some more sticks now :D
[23:07:33] <Rugludallur> thanks for your help guys :D
[23:08:06] <cradek> ok good, I think rotatekins works :-)
[23:08:20] <SWPadnos> heh
[23:09:18] <cradek> so does gantrykins copy joint 0 to joint 3?
[23:09:25] <Rugludallur> cradek: yup
[23:09:31] <cradek> man I wish they were named joint.* in hal
[23:09:42] <cradek> that was a big 'oops'
[23:09:58] <cradek> ok so your joints are XYZX
[23:10:06] <Rugludallur> cradek: 2.2
[23:10:11] <cradek> if homing works, that's a nice solution I think
[23:10:17] <Rugludallur> cradek: XYZY(A)
[23:10:35] <cradek> oh you have a rotary too?
[23:10:48] <Rugludallur> cradek: I'm setting it up in sim mode now
[23:11:18] <cradek> I think even home all isn't quite what you want
[23:11:48] <cradek> call them joints 0 and 1 - you want the homing phases to stay together (the ahead joint waits for the behind joint)
[23:11:54] <cradek> I don't think it does that
[23:12:38] <Jymmm> http://www.rabbitlaser.com/products/laser4.htm
[23:12:40] <cradek> it's maybe simple hackery to do that, but it's hackery in the motion controller and I don't really know how to make it generic enough to put in there permanently
[23:13:41] <cradek> they should move together, the one that hits the switch first stops, waits for the second switch. then they reverse starting together, etc etc
[23:13:59] <Jymmm> Is there anything in EMC that could control a laser?
[23:14:04] <Jymmm> err laser engraver
[23:14:09] <Rugludallur> cradek: it's not a big problem in my case due to the way my sensors are set up but it could become an issue for people where the homing sequence area is larger
[23:15:01] <cradek> you have enough give that they don't have to move together in the intermediate homing phases?
[23:15:24] <Rugludallur> cradek: yup, it's a 2.5m span and the intermediate homing phases are <1mm
[23:15:36] <cradek> ah that's nice
[23:15:50] <cradek> home all really will work fine for you I think
[23:27:11] <robin_sz> cradek, that homing sequence is how the DOS thing on my router does it ... homes Z, then homes X and Y together, stoppign whicever one first .. then reverses and slow-seeks all 3 together
[23:28:35] <robin_sz> Jymmm, laser engravers are mainly done with galvos these days
[23:41:30] <Jymmm> robin_sz: Not these =) http://www.rabbitlaser.com/DemoVideo/
[23:45:07] <robin_sz> i was thinking of the YAG marker type lasers
[23:45:15] <robin_sz> bit different
[23:49:01] <robin_sz> Jymmm, those look nice little machines, going to buy one?
[23:50:44] <Rugludallur> cradek/SWPadnos: there is one bug in this type of setup though, it's impossible to move off a limit switch once triggered
[23:51:20] <cradek> you can do it in joint mode
[23:52:07] <Rugludallur> cradek: hmm ok I probably need to reed doc, I was just using g0 to jog
[23:52:25] <cradek> that's not a jog - that's coordinated motion
[23:52:35] <cradek> jogging is one joint, and you can override limits to jog
[23:53:51] <Rugludallur> cradek: i'm sorry if this is a stupid question but how would you go about switching to "joint mode" while in axis ?
[23:54:38] <cradek> with kinematics, you use $ or "joint mode" on the view menu
[23:55:08] <cradek> with trivkins, any 'manual control' is in joint mode (there is no teleop/world mode with trivkins)
[23:55:33] <cradek> with kinematics, when you switch to joint mode, you get 0,1,2 instead of x,y,z
[23:56:13] <Rugludallur> cradek: ok that means I have been in joint mode all the time, and in that mode when jogging it only moves the "master" joint , not the slave
[23:56:36] <cradek> yes if it's showing 012, you're only moving one joint
[23:56:47] <cradek> once the joints are homed, you can switch to world mode ($) and get XYZ
[23:57:02] <Rugludallur> cradek: gotja
[23:57:03] <cradek> then when you "jog" XYZ it's called teleop mode, and kins are used
[23:58:38] <cradek> you'll notice in teleop mode there is no incremental jogging - you have to use MDI
[23:59:03] <cradek> you may or may not think that's stupid, and I may or may not agree with you :-)
[23:59:55] <Rugludallur> cradek: hmm there is something a bit wierd also, if I try to home in world mode no error is given but no homing is performed, when I switch back to joint queued homing is performed