#emc | Logs for 2007-04-08

[00:36:10] <tomp> jmkasunich: simplified hal names http://imagebin.org/8054
[00:36:55] <jmkasunich> nice
[00:38:41] <Skullworks_PGAB> JMK did they ever test that H-bridge you helped with?
[00:38:56] <jmkasunich> they = skunkworks
[00:39:14] <jmkasunich> I believe he's run it with the motor on the bench, but I'm not sure
[00:39:19] <Skullworks_PGAB> guess so - memory fails me at the moment
[00:39:37] <jmkasunich> he's planning to use it for a K&T retrofit, but there's lots of work to do before he gets to that point
[00:40:37] <Skullworks_PGAB> I want to use the Pluto-P but need something for the H-bridge output stage.
[00:41:40] <Skullworks_PGAB> driving Pittman 14203 & 14437 motors around 30V
[00:44:23] <tomp> Skullworks_PGAB: i have pittman 14203's, i discussed it with jmkasunich. the maxV was 30.3 and not much current. i'm going to try these L298 bridges, modified to dbl the current http://www.robotobjects.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=6. i ordered 3 on tuesday, got them yesterday :)
[00:45:24] <tomp> i'll use fan blowin' on a heatsink.
[00:45:52] <tomp> oh yeah: dirt cheap!
[00:46:06] <Skullworks_PGAB> I got a bag of 50
[00:46:17] <tomp> and pcbs?
[00:46:39] <Skullworks_PGAB> for $75 shipped
[00:46:50] <Skullworks_PGAB> just the chipps
[00:47:18] <Skullworks_PGAB> they were leftover from a test board run
[00:47:50] <Skullworks_PGAB> then the comapny cheaped out and decided to use unipolar drives...
[00:48:07] <tomp> the pcb (and connectors) is why i used the kit. the pcbs would cost me too much in qtys of 3 and size of 30mm sqr
[00:48:10] <Skullworks_PGAB> so I scored the L298n's
[00:48:32] <tomp> nice
[00:49:02] <tomp> make kits, sell 'em to guys like me :) or better, make jeplers pcb
[00:51:28] <anonimasu> :)
[00:52:09] <Skullworks_PGAB> I was looking at ganging up 2 L298's to get 8amp continous rating
[00:52:37] <tomp> oh yeah, found this h-bridge DIY from israel, looked nice http://www.ikalogic.com/H_bridge_1.php
[00:53:35] <Skullworks_PGAB> gang 3x for 12A for the 14437 on the Z - but I'm afraid that 12a maynot be enough for rapid reversal.
[00:54:12] <tomp> the L298 specs say it derates when dbld, nearer 3.some amps , so dbdling that ( 2 pcs L298) would expect near 6
[00:55:06] <Skullworks_PGAB> DC 2a per bridge
[00:55:21] <Skullworks_PGAB> 2 bridge per chip
[00:56:25] <Skullworks_PGAB> they run it at 3amp for stepper drivers
[00:57:07] <Skullworks_PGAB> they trick then becomes finding good diodes...
[00:58:05] <Skullworks_PGAB> a group of good, FAST, 16A diodes...
[00:58:30] <tomp> "When the repetitive peak current needed from the load is higher than 2 Amps, a paralleled configuration can be chosen (See Fig.7).This solution can drive until 3 Amps In DC operation and until 3.5 Amps of a repetitive peak current."
[00:58:33] <Skullworks_PGAB> that would be for 4x 298's
[00:58:59] <Skullworks_PGAB> yeah
[00:59:17] <jmkasunich> Skullworks_PGAB: if you are looking for much over 5A, I don't think the 298 is the way to go - even if you have lots of cheap ones
[01:00:01] <Skullworks_PGAB> next tricky part would be a current limiter that would cut the enable signal and trigger an E-stop!
[01:00:19] <Skullworks_PGAB> JMK - I aggre
[01:00:32] <tomp> this says 5A cont 8a peak http://www.ikalogic.com/H_bridge_1.php
[01:01:05] <tomp> all tip12x's
[01:01:07] <Skullworks_PGAB> that design suffers from bad heat sink design
[01:01:29] <Skullworks_PGAB> they are mounted to the pcb
[01:01:34] <tomp> make that "crap heat sink piece of copper foil"
[01:02:02] <tomp> easy to fix that tho
[01:02:12] <Skullworks_PGAB> should be mounted to a heatsink or vertical so individual sinks could be used
[01:02:22] <jmkasunich> bipolar transistors are dumb for
[01:02:28] <jmkasunich> for that power range
[01:03:10] <jmkasunich> a bipolar is never gonna get much lower than 0.3 volts saturation
[01:03:10] <Skullworks_PGAB> what was the power range that skunkworks bridge was targeted at?
[01:03:24] <jmkasunich> at 5A, that is 1.5W per transistor
[01:03:53] <jmkasunich> a 60 milli-ohm mosfet will be at the same dissipation, and have less switching loss
[01:04:05] <jmkasunich> skunkworks was planning for 20A peak, if I recall correctly
[01:04:11] <jmkasunich> and a 150V or so DC bus
[01:05:24] <Skullworks_PGAB> well that would leave plenty of headroom...
[01:05:35] <Skullworks_PGAB> on voltage atleast.
[01:06:46] <Skullworks_PGAB> I worry about peak draw on reversals of the Z axis
[01:07:10] <Skullworks_PGAB> like during a G83 drill cycle and a deep hole
[01:07:50] <Skullworks_PGAB> plus the inertial load of the head weight
[01:09:53] <Skullworks_PGAB> it lists a stall current of 40A... I know I won't hit 40A cause the power supply is only 20A, but the reversing load... I don't know how much headroom I need for that.
[01:13:29] <cradek> a reversal won't take any more current than a start or stop - it only takes twice as long
[01:14:31] <Skullworks_PGAB> back EMF won't require more current?
[01:14:58] <cradek> I don't think so - the accel is the same on a reversal as on a start or stop
[01:15:08] <cradek> jmkasunich would know for sure
[01:16:05] <jmkasunich> know what
[01:16:09] <jmkasunich> I don't know nuthin
[01:16:59] <jmkasunich> "requires" more current is tricky
[01:17:08] <jmkasunich> current = torque
[01:17:10] <Skullworks_PGAB> that happens when you stare a "C" source too long.
[01:17:16] <tomp> (private Shultz "I know nothink, nothink")
[01:17:31] <jmkasunich> if you give it less current, it will just have less torque and take longer to accel, decel, whatever
[01:17:47] <Skullworks_PGAB> tomp : I bought that whole series on DVD
[01:17:53] <jmkasunich> but - if you don't control and/or limit the current you might find it _draws_ more current during a reversal
[01:18:11] <Skullworks_PGAB> thats what I figured
[01:19:08] <Skullworks_PGAB> and the feedback loop of position is what will control the accel/decel rates?
[01:19:32] <jmkasunich> yeah, pretty much
[01:19:47] <jmkasunich> but if you have no current limiting, the worse case is if you run into a stop
[01:20:05] <jmkasunich> the PID will command full voltage to the motor and it will draw whatever its locked rotor current is
[01:20:18] <jmkasunich> an amp without current limit will go poof
[01:20:25] <Skullworks_PGAB> then it blows the fuse
[01:21:06] <Skullworks_PGAB> Power supply is 20A - stall draw is 40A
[01:21:28] <jmkasunich> transistors blow faster than fuses
[01:21:46] <cradek> 'three-legged fuses'
[01:21:48] <Skullworks_PGAB> true
[01:24:21] <Skullworks_PGAB> and this is my delima - finding a H-bridge that can push the motors at full capacity, and has a current limit/E-stop out
[01:24:52] <jmkasunich> how many volts and amps do you need?
[01:25:22] <Skullworks_PGAB> Hoping for an Elegantly simple solution that won't break the bank
[01:25:33] <Skullworks_PGAB> motors are rated for 24V
[01:25:50] <jmkasunich> and how many amps?
[01:26:00] <Skullworks_PGAB> my PWS has open circuit voltage of 31
[01:26:12] <Skullworks_PGAB> not sure... of the amps
[01:26:28] <Skullworks_PGAB> the 14437 is the biggest moter
[01:26:51] <Skullworks_PGAB> and the specs have me confused
[01:26:58] <jmkasunich> got a URL?
[01:27:56] <Skullworks_PGAB> sure - 1 sec - its the Pittman motor pdf...
[01:31:20] <Skullworks_PGAB> this is the smaller motor - for x/y http://www.pennmotion.com/part_num_database/pdf/14203S010.pdf
[01:32:26] <Skullworks_PGAB> http://www.pennmotion.com/pdf/lcm_bulletin.pdf - this covers all them
[01:33:13] <Skullworks_PGAB> but the big motor is the 14437
[01:35:22] <jmkasunich> ok, what don't you know about it
[01:36:51] <jmkasunich> you got the 24 volt version, right?
[01:37:02] <Skullworks_PGAB> I guess what I don't know is what spec I need for the H-bridge to be comfortable running these
[01:37:12] <Skullworks_PGAB> yes 24v windings
[01:37:46] <jmkasunich> that means 40A peak current, 10oz-in per amp. Since the continuous torque rating is 50 oz-in, that means 5A continuous
[01:37:55] <Skullworks_PGAB> have an Elpac 24V unreg 20A powersupply
[01:38:16] <jmkasunich> a drive without current limit should be able to survive 40A for a few mS and 20A for a long time if you want to run it safely with these motors and supply
[01:38:43] <jmkasunich> if it has current limit to protect itself, and you can get buy with a bit less peak torque, then you could use a 10A drive
[01:38:51] <Skullworks_PGAB> I hooked into the 135VAC winding to get an open circuit output of 31VDC
[01:39:18] <jmkasunich> the voltage is almost a non-issue
[01:39:41] <Skullworks_PGAB> not sure what it will end up under load of 3 servo amps
[01:39:47] <jmkasunich> it makes a difference if you are talking about 24V vs 50V vs 90V vs 150V, but 24 vs. 30-something is irrelevant
[01:39:47] <Skullworks_PGAB> ok
[01:40:21] <Skullworks_PGAB> I figured the PWM would counter the over voltage issue
[01:40:23] <jmkasunich> the two key numbers are back emf constant and torque constant (lines 38 and 39)
[01:40:36] <jmkasunich> you need 7.39 volts per 1000 RPM
[01:40:44] <Skullworks_PGAB> is this from the 1st pdf?
[01:41:11] <jmkasunich> so with 24V which is 3.24*7.39, you can get 3240 RPM
[01:41:20] <jmkasunich> its from the one that has the 14437 in it
[01:41:29] <Skullworks_PGAB> OK
[01:41:38] <jmkasunich> I'm reading 14xx7 data
[01:42:03] <jmkasunich> the torque constant is 10.0 oz-in per amp
[01:42:14] <jmkasunich> so if you hit it with 10A, you'll get 100 oz-in
[01:42:15] <Skullworks_PGAB> sounds right - lists the no load @ 3211 rpm
[01:42:37] <jmkasunich> but continuous is only 50 oz-in - that means if you run more than 5A for a long time it will overheat
[01:44:11] <Skullworks_PGAB> so these motors are pretty weak then...
[01:45:12] <Skullworks_PGAB> takes 20A to match a stepper @ 3A
[01:45:16] <jmkasunich> weak is relative
[01:45:36] <jmkasunich> they will deliver that torque at full speed as well as at a standstill - a stepper won't come close
[01:45:48] <jmkasunich> at 3000 RPM, most steppers can barely turn over, let alone handle a load
[01:46:03] <Skullworks_PGAB> was going to use 3:1 belt reduction
[01:46:13] <jmkasunich> what is your leadscrew pitch?
[01:46:30] <Skullworks_PGAB> was going with either 5mm or .2"
[01:46:40] <Skullworks_PGAB> close enough
[01:46:52] <jmkasunich> 3000 RPM / 3:1 belt = 1000 RPM at the screw * 0.2 = 200 ipm at the table
[01:47:06] <Skullworks_PGAB> yep thats my target
[01:47:24] <jmkasunich> 50 oz-in contuous * 3 = 150 oz-in at the screw, seems kinda low
[01:47:23] <Skullworks_PGAB> but doubt It will make that
[01:47:44] <jmkasunich> of course you can push more amps thru it (temporarily) to get more torque
[01:47:51] <jmkasunich> what kind of a machine is this?
[01:47:59] <Skullworks_PGAB> figure 80% of no load as rapid
[01:48:06] <Skullworks_PGAB> Seig X3
[01:48:13] <jmkasunich> that doesn't mean anything to me
[01:48:23] <jmkasunich> big, small?
[01:48:35] <Skullworks_PGAB> small table top mill - 450lbs
[01:48:35] <jmkasunich> tabletop, or tons?
[01:48:44] <jmkasunich> do you really need 200 ipm?
[01:48:48] <Skullworks_PGAB> 16" x
[01:49:08] <jmkasunich> if you belted it 5:1 that would still give you 3000/5 = 600 rpm at the screw, * 0.2 = 120 ipm
[01:49:16] <Skullworks_PGAB> will have to live with less I guess
[01:49:31] <jmkasunich> and 250 oz-in continuous, 500-750 oz-in peak on the screw
[01:49:46] <jmkasunich> if its a 16" travel, 120 ipm goes end-to-end in 8 seconds
[01:49:50] <jmkasunich> seems plenty fast to me
[01:50:06] <toastydeath> depends on what you're cutting and how fast you're cutting it
[01:50:13] <Skullworks_PGAB> 5:1 just causes big problems with pully sizes
[01:51:03] <Skullworks_PGAB> * Skullworks_PGAB is used to 1250 IPM rapids... even the Knee mill goes 250IPM
[01:51:11] <jmkasunich> big pulley gets kinda large...
[01:51:25] <jmkasunich> 1250? wow
[01:51:48] <toastydeath> 450 ipm during cuts are not uncommon
[01:51:54] <jmkasunich> of course, thats probably a $3000 per axis AC servomotor and drive combo
[01:52:02] <Skullworks_PGAB> and that will cause a clearance issue on the Y axis
[01:52:07] <jmkasunich> toastydeath: cutting what?
[01:52:14] <toastydeath> stainless steel
[01:52:21] <toastydeath> if you want
[01:52:26] <toastydeath> plastic, if you want
[01:52:32] <jmkasunich> 450 ipm on SS?
[01:52:36] <toastydeath> yep
[01:52:37] <Skullworks_PGAB> yeah the 22,000lb Mori Seiki has 9.2HP servo drives
[01:52:37] <toastydeath> or more
[01:53:04] <SWPadnos> each of those motors weighs more than your mill
[01:53:06] <Skullworks_PGAB> and I've stalled them... with the 30HP spindle
[01:53:20] <Skullworks_PGAB> yeah about right
[01:53:50] <Skullworks_PGAB> I want to take a pic of the X3 on the Mori table when its done...:)
[01:54:25] <toastydeath> 120 ipm rapids are not very quick if you're cutting something like aluminum
[01:54:28] <Skullworks_PGAB> but that was bought with OPM (other peoples money)
[01:54:31] <toastydeath> er, ipm feed
[01:54:58] <Skullworks_PGAB> toasty.. the spindle will be the limit on the table top mill
[01:55:09] <toastydeath> yeah
[01:55:10] <jmkasunich> toastydeath: it all depends on the class of machine you are talking about
[01:55:14] <toastydeath> bzzt
[01:55:20] <toastydeath> crunch
[01:55:24] <toastydeath> *headdesk*
[01:55:25] <Skullworks_PGAB> as shipped its rated at 3/4hp @ 2000rpm
[01:55:35] <toastydeath> 3 hp can take a pretty decent cut
[01:55:46] <jmkasunich> 3/4 HP at 2000 RPM ;-)
[01:55:51] <Skullworks_PGAB> that 0.75 HP
[01:55:53] <toastydeath> oh
[01:55:55] <toastydeath> 3/4
[01:55:57] <toastydeath> i read that as "three or four"
[01:56:02] <jmkasunich> heh
[01:56:03] <toastydeath> oops
[01:56:18] <jmkasunich> you don't deal with hobby class machines much do you?
[01:56:30] <toastydeath> nah
[01:56:40] <Skullworks_PGAB> but I will swap out that motor... put a 2hp belt drive on it
[01:56:51] <Skullworks_PGAB> run at a lower duty cycle
[01:57:04] <Skullworks_PGAB> instead of 100% load
[01:57:09] <toastydeath> i never deal with hobby machines
[01:57:10] <jmkasunich> I'd give serious thought to going 5:1 or at least 4:1 on the drives
[01:57:24] <jmkasunich> if your rapids are a bit slower than you like, thats a nuisance
[01:57:35] <Skullworks_PGAB> true
[01:57:37] <toastydeath> i'd grab a used milling center rather than buy a new hobby size
[01:57:56] <jmkasunich> if you don't have the torque you need or you overheat the motors by constantly running them at or above their continuous rating, thats more than just a nuisance
[01:58:05] <Skullworks_PGAB> Toasty - I would too - if I had a place to put it...
[01:58:28] <toastydeath> yeah, that tends to be the hard part
[01:58:47] <toastydeath> girlfriend and I have decided to move into a warehouse space
[01:58:54] <toastydeath> so we'll have room
[01:58:56] <Skullworks_PGAB> this machine is small enough I can move it without a rigging company...
[01:59:30] <Skullworks_PGAB> your heating and air con bill ....
[01:59:38] <toastydeath> uh, not rly
[01:59:44] <toastydeath> i'm not going to heat the whole warehouse
[01:59:54] <jmkasunich> what climate are you in?
[02:00:05] <toastydeath> temperate?
[02:00:06] <jmkasunich> (we have 6" of snow right now... sucks)
[02:00:27] <toastydeath> the warehouse itself will give us a buffer against whatever is outside
[02:00:34] <toastydeath> and then we're going to put up some walls on the inside
[02:00:37] <Skullworks_PGAB> OK JMK - I'll target 4/5:1
[02:00:38] <toastydeath> and just insulate them
[02:01:33] <Skullworks_PGAB> * Skullworks_PGAB is in an ice storm 21 dgrees F
[02:02:29] <Skullworks_PGAB> and I don't have 3ph either :(
[03:15:46] <Skullworks_PGAB> what city Toasty?
[03:17:45] <tomp> hal parport trainer http://imagebin.org/8060
[03:27:06] <Skullworks_PGAB> Tomp - you going to make one?
[03:27:24] <tomp> got it
[03:27:35] <Skullworks_PGAB> ?
[03:27:46] <tomp> already got it
[03:27:58] <Skullworks_PGAB> made or purchased?
[03:28:19] <Skullworks_PGAB> looks handy for debugging
[03:28:41] <tomp> breadboard, leds, switches, parallel cable broke out to a 48 pin wirewrap socket jammed into breadboard
[03:29:34] <tomp> power from unused hd power connector to screw terminal on breadboard ( i used 12 V instead of 5 )
[03:29:54] <Skullworks_PGAB> I found my silver wrapping wire, but not sure where I but the tool...
[03:31:17] <tomp> i soldered to the legs of the ww socket, and left plenty to jam into the breadboard... will take a pic...
[03:33:16] <Skullworks_PGAB> I used wirewrap on ISA only vintage MBDs to set the option jumpers...
[03:42:40] <tomp> heres the breadboard http://imagebin.org/8061 and the slide with the pittman motor http://imagebin.org/8062
[03:44:13] <tomp> i went to use the camera, i always take the batteries out, they're nimh, and there were only 3, needed 4... sometimes i wish i could upgrade to plain old bad luck!
[03:45:19] <tomp> (stole one out of the tv remote)
[03:45:47] <Skullworks_PGAB> what Voltage is your Pittman?
[03:46:09] <tomp> thier sheet sez 30.3
[03:46:34] <Skullworks_PGAB> I bought 6 of the 24V
[03:47:18] <tomp> what? do you go to the sams club for electronic parts store? 75 l298s , 6 pittmans !! :)
[03:47:29] <Skullworks_PGAB> got lucky - they were ball bearing units, most use bronze bushings
[03:47:55] <Skullworks_PGAB> well they are some of the smoothest motors out there
[03:48:42] <Skullworks_PGAB> though I'd love to get some nice 4 brush motors... evem smoother.
[03:48:57] <tomp> tamagawa
[03:49:12] <Skullworks_PGAB> thats one
[03:51:59] <Skullworks_PGAB> so, whats the slide for?
[03:53:08] <tomp> got them from a guy in florida, i think they were photo copiers, 1mm national ball screw and nsk slides, heavy nice aluminum castings
[03:53:21] <tomp> i'll use them to study some hal motion
[03:53:44] <Skullworks_PGAB> sweet
[03:54:17] <tomp> better, 1um linear encoder general dynamics, ttl ( no z phase for home tho )
[03:54:31] <Skullworks_PGAB> btw - you read the pdf for that L298 kit you bought?
[03:54:45] <tomp> yeah, pretty ;)
[03:55:26] <Skullworks_PGAB> if you swap the reg and diodes you can feed it more juice.
[03:55:53] <tomp> i asked thier eng about fsckin it up,he said it'd work to near 3 amp constant, yep, new diodes and a real 7895 heat sunk
[03:56:04] <tomp> 7805
[03:56:42] <Skullworks_PGAB> I was going to get that same unit - direct from the mfg, I got the diodes and reg from MPJA
[03:57:00] <tomp> ah, MPJA thats where i got the slides!
[03:57:04] <Skullworks_PGAB> Solarbotics IIRC
[03:57:10] <Skullworks_PGAB> really
[03:57:13] <tomp> right
[03:58:08] <Skullworks_PGAB> I'm using some perf board from MPJA for the multi L298n test
[03:58:58] <tomp> and the best score was for 40$ each, i got 3 pcs headsup display ( over one eye ) 256 levels of green, plugged into vga connector (after a bit of hcaking) right when he started advertising
[03:58:59] <Skullworks_PGAB> it looks funny putting an angle bend in the extended legs to fit the grid.
[03:59:01] <tomp> mpja
[03:59:20] <tomp> they dont align?
[03:59:51] <Skullworks_PGAB> holes are on .1" centers
[04:00:15] <Skullworks_PGAB> one row will fit - other row is offset .050"
[04:00:59] <tomp> multiwatt is weird layout, right
[04:01:21] <Skullworks_PGAB> need a heatsink?
[04:02:11] <Skullworks_PGAB> for a 298
[04:03:11] <tomp> i'll use heatsinks and fans when i dbl these 298's up for the 3amp at 24V
[04:04:16] <Skullworks_PGAB> that slid also looks like it has a glass scale...
[04:05:50] <tomp> 1um linear encoder general dynamics, ttl ( no z phase for home tho )
[04:08:04] <Skullworks_PGAB> sweeeeet - I just spent $1400 on a DRO package with 3 sets of glass scales
[04:08:21] <tomp> i should use hal to control the lights on the new plants for the garden.. i just ran down stairs to manually turn them off. :-[
[04:09:00] <Skullworks_PGAB> hal vrs CL
[04:09:38] <tomp> not a bad price, like BP size? i think i spent near 300$ for 18" 1um scales this summer, no dro
[04:09:51] <Skullworks_PGAB> I still need to buy encoders...
[04:10:43] <Skullworks_PGAB> 30" X axis 12" Y axis, 24" Z axis
[04:11:31] <Skullworks_PGAB> 5" K axis - but not glass scale for the quill
[04:12:07] <Skullworks_PGAB> this is the big mill - not the little one getting the pittmans
[04:12:28] <tomp> right
[04:12:57] <tomp> K is parallel to Z? like a backslide and a quill?
[04:13:52] <Skullworks_PGAB> If I convert the bigger mill I'm going to chicken out and buy the full package from J.E.
[04:14:08] <Skullworks_PGAB> I use Z for the full head - K for quill
[04:14:25] <Skullworks_PGAB> think of a bedmill with a quill
[04:14:39] <tomp> ok
[04:15:59] <Skullworks_PGAB> this is the bigger mill http://www.industrialhobbies.com/Products/square_column_mill_2a.htm
[04:18:49] <tomp> yes, how you like that one? i loked at it ( actually the enco version for 1200$)
[04:19:32] <Skullworks_PGAB> its in customs in California being X-rayd
[04:20:19] <Skullworks_PGAB> then it goes to CT where they will add the DRO and other goodies, then gets shipped to me.
[04:20:49] <Skullworks_PGAB> I should have it in about 2 weeks
[04:21:44] <Skullworks_PGAB> and I don't have a decent place for it - so its going to end up in a corner of my kitchen...
[04:22:20] <Skullworks_PGAB> I don't want it in a non-temp controlled enviro
[04:22:30] <Skullworks_PGAB> frost on the ways
[04:22:55] <tomp> i had to pay 300$ to get skids and crates fumigated before they went on the ship from taiwan to CA
[04:23:28] <Skullworks_PGAB> I ordered it when I was in process of buying a ranch, but the guys job offer fell thru and he decided to stay.
[04:23:58] <Skullworks_PGAB> so I'm not moving...
[04:24:13] <Skullworks_PGAB> I here that
[04:25:38] <Skullworks_PGAB> A guy I knew got fined for not reporting the importation of Yugoslavian straw... that wwas used as the packing material...
[04:25:52] <tomp> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=18076290&PMAKA=NS326-1022
[04:25:57] <tomp> haha
[04:26:23] <tomp> one year at IMTS i was uncrating a machine and a bat flew out
[04:26:42] <Skullworks_PGAB> never been to IMTS
[04:27:05] <Skullworks_PGAB> Chicago scares me, like NYC
[04:27:20] <tomp> grew up there, no fear :)
[04:27:55] <Skullworks_PGAB> would feel nakked without my shootin irons, but the natives would freak
[04:28:21] <tomp> you just cant wear them here, the gummint dont like 'em
[04:28:38] <Skullworks_PGAB> at least when I got to WESTEC in L.A. in only alittle paranoid.
[04:29:13] <Skullworks_PGAB> but I would like to do IMTS some year
[04:29:49] <Skullworks_PGAB> That Rong Fu - is smaller, weaker, and more money
[04:30:04] <Skullworks_PGAB> but its a great machine
[04:30:48] <Skullworks_PGAB> Rong fu is the best tabletop thats on the mass market
[04:31:26] <jmkasunich> Skullworks_PGAB: where do you live?
[04:31:30] <tomp> there was some talk of the IHOB being a better machine, report on it when you get it. i have a chinese 3in1 and dont like the spindle at all. jmk has one and redid his
[04:31:32] <Skullworks_PGAB> The IH mill is a royal pain to make - the whole factory retools for a month to do it
[04:31:54] <Skullworks_PGAB> I'm in Colorado Springs - Grew up in L.A. area
[04:32:08] <jmkasunich> heh, no irons in CA either
[04:32:28] <Skullworks_PGAB> The IH is done as a custom job
[04:32:35] <Skullworks_PGAB> true...
[04:33:11] <Skullworks_PGAB> but a V8 is an assult weapon in worst case...
[04:33:40] <Skullworks_PGAB> and In L.A. I don't use public transportation
[04:34:16] <Jymm> You're right V8 is an assult weapon on my taste buds http://www.v8juice.com/
[04:34:43] <Skullworks_PGAB> but - as charlie started out, a sock full of $20 in quarters can be handy.
[04:34:45] <Jymm> jmkasunich irons?
[04:34:55] <tomp> colorado springs = coors plant?
[04:35:00] <Jymm> ah
[04:35:10] <Skullworks_PGAB> Coors - is up in Golden
[04:35:21] <Jymm> Skullworks_PGAB quarters, bar of soap, etc
[04:35:22] <Skullworks_PGAB> about 90 miles north
[04:35:26] <tomp> right
[04:35:30] <jmkasunich> read back - Skullworks_PGAB was talking about being nekid without his shootin' irons
[04:36:41] <tomp> 'attitude alignment tools'
[04:37:21] <Jymm> Skullworks_PGAB weren't you the one talking about working in a bookstore?
[04:37:29] <Jymm> with toys
[04:37:41] <Skullworks_PGAB> yep I fill in there as needed
[04:38:10] <Jymm> Ok, so nakkid and no shooting irons, would that be a strap on?????
[04:38:11] <Skullworks_PGAB> I mainly do IT work on there Point of sale software database
[04:38:49] <Skullworks_PGAB> * Skullworks_PGAB just got slapped by his own puns...
[04:38:56] <Jymm> lol
[04:39:46] <Jymm> For those that missed that conversation last week, that would be an ADULT BOOK STORE
[04:40:30] <Jymm> Skullworks_PGAB I just couldn't resist =)
[04:41:21] <Skullworks_PGAB> since I work on the POS I have a cashiers account, which when one person quit made me the first choice as a temp
[04:42:19] <Jymm> i had a friend that worked in a bookstore, we would go visitor her, so we could get into the attached nudie bar for free.
[04:42:19] <Skullworks_PGAB> I worked several months 2 nites a week until additional staff was added, but I still fill in when people need time off
[04:43:42] <Skullworks_PGAB> Its the only job I had where they don't care what you look at on the internet...
[04:44:34] <Jymm> during my interview here... "do you have problme looking at p0rn? No. Ok, good"
[04:44:47] <Skullworks_PGAB> but I was mainly reading email...
[04:45:52] <Jymm> we got LOTS of p0rn here
[04:46:19] <Jymm> If it's legal in the US, we probably got it somewhere.
[04:47:27] <Skullworks_PGAB> Tomp - if you want an IH mill its priced much less than ENCO and has a 2hp single phase motor.
[04:47:48] <Skullworks_PGAB> or a 3ph 3hp
[04:48:51] <tomp> single phase? cool, i have a 220V 20amp electric dryer outlet :)
[04:49:44] <tomp> (listening to ian drury and the blockheads 'clever trevor' hard to believe they're speaking english :)
[04:50:07] <Skullworks_PGAB> I'm going to get the 3hp with a VFD later. (spindle motor upgrade)
[04:50:55] <Skullworks_PGAB> the IH goes for $1995
[04:52:13] <Skullworks_PGAB> and like I posted earlier - its a 30"x12" movement on a 42" table
[04:53:57] <Skullworks_PGAB> its bigger than the regular Bridgeport at work, and about the same size (still bigger) as the extended version BP.
[04:59:02] <tomp> is the dovetail under the table near the size of the bridgeport dovetail?
[04:59:49] <Skullworks_PGAB> don't really know
[05:00:00] <Skullworks_PGAB> think its close
[05:00:58] <Skullworks_PGAB> they really push it
[05:01:23] <Skullworks_PGAB> .25" depth of cut at 100IPM feed
[05:01:25] <tomp> looks nice, i wanna hear your experiences when it comes. got some work for it? or is this your hobby?
[05:02:10] <Skullworks_PGAB> this is just a hobby at this point - not sure if I'll do the cnc
[05:02:24] <jmkasunich> oops
[05:03:10] <Skullworks_PGAB> I work at 2 machine shops as day jobs, but there are times I want to do stuff for me, and all machines are tied up
[05:04:05] <Skullworks_PGAB> so I bought a Seig X3 to convert to CNC and the IH to use like a BP with the DRO
[05:04:42] <tomp> you gonna have a crowded kitchen ;)
[05:04:48] <Skullworks_PGAB> X3 won't be fast - but its not going to be running extended production
[05:05:06] <Skullworks_PGAB> maybe a dozen at most
[05:06:02] <Skullworks_PGAB> I'm lazy now... if its production I'll run it at the shop on a 10K rpm machine with a 30+ tool ATC
[05:06:24] <Skullworks_PGAB> but for home stuff
[05:06:33] <Skullworks_PGAB> testing G-code
[05:06:52] <Skullworks_PGAB> single part proto's etc
[05:08:05] <Skullworks_PGAB> the X3 will give me a 16"x6.25" work envelope - thats enough to do most small parts
[05:08:20] <tomp> well, i'm outta here, nite all :)
[05:08:33] <Skullworks_PGAB> its an R8 spindle so tooling is easy
[05:08:38] <Skullworks_PGAB> nite
[05:17:35] <Jymm> Jymm is now known as Jymmmmm
[05:48:15] <Skullworks_PGAB> I guess I shall boot up Windows XP and waste some time playing video games... (the best use for WXP)
[05:48:30] <Skullworks_PGAB> nite all
[06:26:10] <tomp> library for hal in gEDA so far http://imagebin.org/8073
[06:26:19] <tomp> g'nite zzzzzz
[06:45:21] <Jymm> Jymm is now known as Jymmmmmmmmmmmmm
[07:01:09] <Jymmmmmmmmmmmmm> Jymmmmmmmmmmmmm is now known as Jymmm
[07:02:44] <ds3> Hmm
[07:03:37] <Jymmm> mmH
[07:28:48] <Jymmm> ds3 what ya doin up at this hour?
[07:31:58] <ds3> nothing, I am a nocturnal person
[07:32:18] <Jymmm> ah, ok. Me too, but I have an excuse =)
[07:32:29] <ds3> and that is?
[07:32:43] <Jymmm> pay rent, eat, etc
[07:33:29] <ds3> a bit late for dinner?
[07:33:44] <Jymmm> No, no, work so I can have those things =)
[07:33:56] <ds3> Oh... late shift
[07:34:00] <ds3> what do you do?
[07:34:17] <Jymmm> Sit here and watch videos and p0rn
[07:34:33] <ds3> hmmmm you a NOC monkey?
[07:34:41] <Jymmm> you got it
[07:34:52] <ds3> ah those heh
[07:35:24] <ds3> why not just go in and randomly press reset? ;)
[07:35:32] <Jymmm> who says I don't?
[07:35:59] <ds3> donno... just happy I don't have any east bay servers ;)
[07:36:11] <Jymmm> east bay?
[07:36:28] <ds3> yeah, you mentioned the UC Walmart was close to work
[07:36:40] <Jymmm> Ah, yeah.
[07:37:02] <Jymmm> But I'm in Fremont, fairly easy drive - reverse commute.
[07:37:14] <Jymmm> from SJ
[07:37:17] <ds3> eh? like in the old Frys Bldg?
[07:37:24] <Jymmm> no
[07:37:42] <ds3> HE?
[07:37:52] <Jymmm> :)
[07:38:05] <ds3> came close to having boxes there
[07:38:23] <Jymmm> bring em in, so I cna reset them at random
[07:38:59] <ds3> the 880 travel nix'ed them
[07:39:13] <Jymmm> then 680 exactly between both
[07:39:33] <ds3> is warner useable thesedays?
[07:40:13] <Jymmm> sorta kinda.... but just take 680 and exit Mission Blvd
[07:40:30] <ds3> still much rather avoid Fremont w/them cameras
[07:40:43] <Jymmm> like SJ doens't have cameras
[07:40:50] <ds3> they don't
[07:41:03] <ds3> Cupertino and SM are the two South bay cities that do
[07:41:07] <ds3> and I avoid both
[07:41:24] <Jymmm> I coulda sworn I've seen cameras in SJ
[07:41:39] <ds3> SJ just has the vans and they aren't completely legit
[07:42:55] <Jymmm> I haven't seen those
[07:43:53] <ds3> so you figured a way to automatically set tools?
[07:44:13] <Jymmm> Oh gawd... I wish.
[07:44:54] <ds3> do you have a tool changer?
[07:45:04] <Jymmm> No, just a router
[07:45:16] <Jymmm> well yeah, me
[07:45:17] <ds3> then why bother?
[07:45:35] <Jymmm> becasue it would save a lot of time
[07:46:02] <ds3> tool height settings goes pretty quickly with a little practice
[07:46:04] <Jymmm> i don't use too many tools, so even 3 or 4 would be nice
[07:46:19] <ds3> another option is to make up quick change tool holders
[07:46:54] <Jymmm> it takes time.... loosen the collet, remove the tool, grab the other tool, tighten up the collet, zero out the axises. all time consuming
[07:47:13] <ds3> no no, quick change holder
[07:47:24] <ds3> i.e. no collet, just a repeating holder
[07:47:50] <Jymmm> ZEROING out isn't the hard part
[07:48:10] <ds3> you get a bunch of quick change holders that repeat
[07:48:18] <ds3> set the height of each one manually once and store them in a table
[07:48:29] <ds3> change tool, call entry in table and be done with
[07:48:47] <anonimasu> Jymmm: did you consider tools with depth stops?
[07:49:01] <Jymmm> depending on the material I' using, I still have to zero oout to top of material
[07:49:28] <ds3> yes, but that's once per material and you can put that into your G54 Z offset
[07:50:13] <Jymmm> anonimasu how so?
[07:50:19] <CIA-19> 03jmkasunich 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/hal/drivers/mesa_5i2x/5i20_vhdl/Makefile: makefile changes to support simulation as well as synthesis
[07:50:44] <Jymmm> ds3 unless I can atomate the whole not a lot of good it'll do me
[07:50:46] <anonimasu> Jymmm: then you need to set one tool
[07:51:03] <anonimasu> and the rest of the tool offsets are just to set in a table..
[07:51:11] <anonimasu> ideally just change the holder..
[07:51:31] <ds3> think anonimasu and I are talking about the same thing
[07:52:19] <Jymmm> I'm not seeing the benefit unless I have a quick change thingy/tool changer
[07:52:33] <anonimasu> Jymmm: well, dont you do toolchanges?
[07:52:56] <ds3> a collet stop would have the same effect
[07:54:26] <Jymmm> http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?pid=00926691000&vertical=Sears&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes
[07:54:58] <Jymmm> but I hear they are wobbly
[07:55:52] <ds3> what kind of tools do you use?
[07:56:24] <anonimasu> there's also tormach
[07:56:40] <anonimasu> still for 29.99 heh
[07:56:50] <anonimasu> what do you expect?
[07:56:54] <ds3> tormach...aka the big vacuum cleaner ;)
[07:57:13] <Jymmm> ds3 you mean shank sizes? 1/4 3/8 and 1/2"
[07:57:20] <Jymmm> tormach?????????????
[07:57:44] <anonimasu> yeah
[07:57:49] <Jymmm> tormach?????????????
[07:57:50] <ds3> Jymmm: no, type of tools
[07:58:01] <anonimasu> http://www.tormach.com/Product_TTS.html
[07:58:24] <Jymmm> anonimasu Ah, straight shank here =(
[07:58:30] <ds3> i.e. do they all have welden flats or are they typical router tools like cove cutting, etc
[07:59:15] <anonimasu> Jymmm: http://www.tormach.com/picts/30189/30105/DSCN0358-v1.JPG
[07:59:17] <Jymmm> stright/spiral flute, v tip, not many profiles
[07:59:48] <Jymmm> anonimasu how do they lock in?
[07:59:49] <ds3> think most of those are available with a weldon flat
[07:59:56] <Jymmm> weldon?
[07:59:58] <ds3> prehaps just a screw on tool holder?
[08:00:10] <anonimasu> in your normal collet I think
[08:00:21] <Jymmm> so no quick release huh, damn
[08:00:28] <ds3> yeah, that flat area on an endmill is known as a weldon flat; lets you clamp on it with a set screw
[08:00:40] <anonimasu> Jymmm: what do you expect?
[08:00:48] <Jymmm> ah, gotcha. no dont have that
[08:00:53] <ds3> I'd try modeling it off a Tail tool holder
[08:01:07] <ds3> only catch is you can't run those in reverse :/
[08:01:12] <anonimasu> Jymmm: did you check how hard it is to do toolchanging?
[08:01:16] <anonimasu> like auto drawbar?
[08:01:25] <Jymmm> anonimasu what do you keep asking me redundant questions?
[08:01:32] <Jymmm> s/what/why/
[08:01:36] <anonimasu> Jymmm: because you seem to have no clue about anything..
[08:01:46] <Jymmm> anonimasu and you have a problem with that?
[08:02:17] <anonimasu> yeah, it pisses me when people talk about stuff they have no clue about
[08:02:34] <Jymmm> No, I've never touched a BP, and I have never said/implied that I have.
[08:02:54] <anonimasu> power drawbar is simple, pneumatic with retainer knobs is not..
[08:03:21] <Jymmm> anonimasu so you everything you know is by ossmosis?!
[08:03:52] <anonimasu> I dont know that word
[08:04:09] <Jymmm> anonimasu absorbtion like a sponge out of thin air
[08:04:25] <Jymmm> like matrix
[08:04:40] <anonimasu> on, because im so damn curious..
[08:04:42] <Jymmm> the movie learning to fly a helicopter in 30 seocnds
[08:04:47] <anonimasu> no..
[08:05:08] <ds3> or diffusion with a pressure/concentration gradient
[08:05:38] <Jymmm> Well, so am I, so I ask questions. but you getting pissed off because I aks or don't know something is pretty fuckign rude if ya ask me.
[08:06:07] <Jymmm> If I acted like I knew something, yea sure THEN you have a right to be pissed.
[08:06:06] <anonimasu> no, I get pissed off because you keep on saying stuff that you have no ground for whatsoever..
[08:06:30] <anonimasu> it's not the fact that you dont know it's the fact that you seem reluctant to belive in what anyone else says..
[08:06:31] <Jymmm> no ground for what? knowing? learning? what?
[08:06:46] <anonimasu> you say "I have no idea how it works", but it's easy.
[08:07:03] <Jymmm> sO, I'm suppose to take everyone's word for it w/o knowing what they are talking about and not willign to explain?
[08:07:30] <anonimasu> no, but you could look how things work before making any claims about them
[08:07:38] <Jymmm> as example?
[08:07:49] <anonimasu> Jymmm: I dont talk about helicopters usually, because they dont interest me and I have no clue about them.
[08:08:18] <Jymmm> huh? You never saw the movie "The Matrix"???
[08:08:28] <anonimasu> yes :)
[08:08:38] <Jymmm> Well, then wth are you babbling about?
[08:09:09] <Jymmm> You dont remember the scene where she learns to fly the helicopter?
[08:09:28] <anonimasu> ofcourse
[08:09:34] <Jymmm> osmissos
[08:09:41] <Jymmm> (sp)
[08:09:54] <jmkasunich> Jymmm: we DO learn a lot by osmosis... but it doesn't happen in 30 seconds
[08:10:02] <Jymmm> You said you dind't knwo the word, I tried to give you an example .
[08:10:13] <jmkasunich> working with machines, being around machines, you absorb knowledge
[08:10:27] <jmkasunich> I know lots of things that I can't point at some specific place where I learned it
[08:10:29] <jmkasunich> I just did
[08:10:36] <anonimasu> Jymmm: http://www.transconn.com/images/smBerg2-48.jpg
[08:10:49] <anonimasu> http://www.clamprite.com/images/drawbar2.gif
[08:11:02] <jmkasunich> anonimasu: he's not gonna be able to use any kind of drawbar
[08:11:05] <jmkasunich> its a router
[08:11:12] <anonimasu> jmkasunich: I know
[08:11:32] <anonimasu> jmkasunich: getting a automatic toolchanger is even harder on that
[08:11:50] <jmkasunich> s/harder/impossible
[08:12:00] <Jymmm> anonimasu: Explin this statement to me please ---> <anonimasu> no, but you could look how things work before making any claims about them
[08:12:04] <jmkasunich> you will never have an atc on a consumer grade router, or for that matter a pro router
[08:12:21] <anonimasu> Jymmm: google is a good source..
[08:12:28] <Rugludallur> morning
[08:12:36] <Jymmm> jmkasunich they have them, but, not for my size one, maybe Les'
[08:12:47] <Jymmm> anonimasu: but, Explin this statement to me please ---> <anonimasu> no, but you could look how things work before making any claims about them
[08:12:53] <anonimasu> yeah, les were buying one i think he paid 1000$ for it..
[08:13:02] <Jymmm> anonimasu what claim did I make?
[08:13:03] <jmkasunich> for an ordinary wood router?
[08:13:09] <Jymmm> jmkasunich yeah
[08:13:20] <jmkasunich> usually they use a nut that goes over the end of the spindle to lock the collet in
[08:13:21] <Jymmm> well cnc
[08:13:28] <jmkasunich> you need to lock the spindle shaft and apply a wrench
[08:13:49] <Jymmm> jmkasunich oh, no, not a hardware off the shelf router, my confusion.
[08:14:01] <Jymmm> I thought you meant cnc router,
[08:14:17] <jmkasunich> I meant the router on YOUR machine
[08:14:22] <jmkasunich> anything else is utterly irrelevant
[08:14:30] <Jymmm> you mentioned pro router
[08:14:49] <jmkasunich> pro router still means the basic handheld wood cutting tool
[08:14:56] <jmkasunich> just not a harbor frieght pos one
[08:15:05] <jmkasunich> (or sears pos)
[08:15:32] <Jymmm> jmkasunichl when you said "pro router" I thought you meant these --> http://www.techno-isel.com/cnc_routers/LCXSeries_CNCRouter.htm
[08:15:44] <Jymmm> and that has a tool changer
[08:16:40] <Jymmm> anonimasu what claim did I make?
[08:17:19] <anonimasu> Jymmm: acutally you didnt make any claims..
[08:17:29] <Jymmm> anonimasu Then why did you say that I did?
[08:17:38] <jmkasunich> http://bosch.cpotools.com/routers/plunge_routers/1619evs.html
[08:17:44] <jmkasunich> thats what I meant by pro router
[08:17:54] <Jymmm> jmkasunich that'sthe VERY one I have
[08:17:57] <anonimasu> Jymmm: becase you do that 80% of the time
[08:18:01] <Jymmm> well, different model
[08:18:08] <anonimasu> :D
[08:18:14] <jmkasunich> you didn't get your router from HF?
[08:18:16] <Jymmm> anonimasu show me,
[08:18:21] <Jymmm> jmkasunich fuck no
[08:18:27] <jmkasunich> good!
[08:18:40] <jmkasunich> there's hope for you yet
[08:18:54] <Jymmm> I gotthe sears pro, whic is REALLY the Bosch 2,.25 hp
[08:19:11] <Jymmm> but I get a extended warranty from sears
[08:19:14] <jmkasunich> how much did it cost?
[08:19:15] <anonimasu> Jymmm: http://cgi.ebay.com/Perske-Spindle-Motor-17K-rpm-8hp-NEW-IN-CRATE_W0QQitemZ7554891135QQcmdZViewItem
[08:19:29] <anonimasu> I wouldnt mind that one
[08:20:12] <Jymmm> jmkasunich the router $200, the 3yr instant replacement warranty $30
[08:20:16] <Jymmm> 2yr
[08:20:49] <jmkasunich> crap - 4:20 am
[08:20:55] <jmkasunich> wtf am I doing still awake!
[08:21:04] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[08:21:15] <Jymmm> night
[08:23:32] <anonimasu> night
[08:40:17] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: I learn mt Hf LONG ago.... I bouoght a HF trim router, 5 seconds after I turned it on , no load, it started to melt the housing on it =)
[08:40:56] <Jymmm> There are SOME things from HF that aren't too shabby, but few and in between.
[08:41:44] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: this was a good buy for $40 http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91778
[08:43:24] <Jymmm> jmkasunich got this from the flea market for $10, great for tiny things... http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93211 (not worth $50 though)
[11:31:25] <anonimasu> 32§3hm
[11:31:29] <anonimasu> my mastercam post has a big.
[11:31:31] <anonimasu> bug.
[11:36:58] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: ?
[11:37:41] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: found a big bug in mastercam ?
[11:37:47] <anonimasu> no, just in my post..
[11:37:52] <anonimasu> mastercam has a few bugs ;)
[11:38:04] <anonimasu> it omitted a g0 on a move..
[11:38:28] <anonimasu> after some M stuff..
[11:40:22] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: design done, GUI done, now im putting togeather all the hal stuff, should be done in a couple of hours and then it's testing time :D
[11:40:44] <anonimasu> nice :)
[11:41:36] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: the net syntax is so so so so much better than what we had before
[11:41:54] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: I can fit the entire thc config in 70 lines
[11:42:08] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: and it's much simpler to understand and write
[11:42:29] <anonimasu> :)
[11:42:29] <anonimasu> nice
[11:57:03] <alex_joni> Rugludallur: see..
[11:57:10] <alex_joni> told you so :P
[12:06:36] <Rugludallur> alex_joni: I have used it a bit before but I did not fully see how much better it is :D
[12:20:57] <alex_joni> Rugludallur: it's never too late to see the light
[12:28:54] <alex_joni> bbl
[12:42:47] <a-l-p-h-a> morning folks
[12:42:54] <Rugludallur> morning
[12:49:22] <robin_sz> afternoon!
[12:49:42] <a-l-p-h-a> robin_sz, you elitist. ;)
[12:49:58] <robin_sz> time for tea and tiffin
[12:51:55] <robin_sz> although, there does seem to be a shortage of dabawallas around here
[12:57:49] <Rugludallur> robin_sz: let do with the daks instead
[12:59:03] <robin_sz> daks?
[13:01:11] <Rugludallur> robin_sz: Think down under :D
[13:02:39] <Rugludallur> robin_sz: never mind, I messed that one up :P
[13:04:56] <robin_sz> * robin_sz thinks down under
[13:06:46] <Rugludallur> robin_sz: you notice how everything looks upside down when you think down under ?
[13:21:21] <Rugludallur> makes me think about that bug in the F16 software where it flipped upside down when it crossed the equator
[13:32:51] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: is that really true?
[13:33:08] <anonimasu> haha
[13:33:41] <anonimasu> http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/3.44.html
[13:46:14] <tomp> 'man counter' shows a pin counter.N.counts and is described as 'signed' while other docs show data like s32. does 'signed' mean 's32' ?
[13:47:40] <anonimasu> :
[13:47:42] <anonimasu> :)
[13:47:58] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: There was also a recent one where a couple of f22s crossed the international date line, all navigation crashed, had to fly back home by eye :D
[13:48:21] <anonimasu> that's not as spectacular ;)
[13:49:04] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: nohh , but that one went live, the other one was cought in testing
[13:49:44] <anonimasu> uep
[13:51:04] <anonimasu> :)
[14:46:36] <tomp> hal components in gEDA so far http://imagebin.org/8080
[14:49:35] <tomp> some componens have in, outs, functions and parameters.... while ddt has an 'option' , is this a new attribute?
[15:19:50] <robin_sz> anonimasu, I'd ignore that F16 email you linked to, so many technical errors, I think its just some guy making stuff up
[15:20:34] <Rugludallur> Is there a way to make a pin set a parameter ?
[15:21:45] <Rugludallur> i used onshot for a configurable timer but the "width" or time is a parameter, since I want to enable users to set the time from halvcp that complicates matters
[15:22:31] <Rugludallur> or is it easier to convert oneshot.width to a pin ?
[15:31:28] <tomp> the hal manual only shows this method to change a param 'halcmd: setp siggen.0.amplitude 5'
[15:32:04] <tomp> maybe we need a hal component 'setparm' and a pyvcp widget py-setparm
[15:32:30] <tomp> els ethe only method to change a parm is in a terminal ( afaict )
[15:33:34] <Rugludallur> tomp: that's what I thought
[15:34:14] <Rugludallur> tomp: I'm wondering if there is any harm in converting oneshot.width to pin though, setp should still work so ,,...
[15:35:19] <tomp> param rw float width=0 "Pulse width in seconds"; --> pin io float width=0 "Pulse width in seconds"; ??
[15:35:44] <Rugludallur> tomp: yup
[15:37:32] <tomp> well. i
[15:37:58] <tomp> i'd read up on the 'comp' code to see what 'pin' and 'param' meant
[15:39:05] <tomp> which is obfuscated by the fact that there's a comp named comp ... urfk argh bah!
[15:39:14] <Rugludallur> tomp: hehe yup
[15:42:47] <tomp> read hal manual chapter 9. maybe easier to create a new comp Rugludallur_OneShot mimicking the original ... ?
[15:43:11] <tomp> or wrapping ?
[15:44:19] <Rugludallur> tomp: I'm wondering if there is any downside to changing the original and submitting a patch, is there any negative impact of changing that to a pin since it would still work with the old configs ?
[15:44:42] <tomp> after it works there can be up & down sides :)
[15:46:10] <tomp> and keeping it separate is a way to test.. i think the 'comp' attack is good as 1st example shows how to supercede the original 'comp(arator)' from 'C' to 'comp'[the language] ( damn same names )
[15:49:55] <tomp> this is an orange... a what? what color is it? orange ...what does it smell like? orange ....what does it taste like? orange.... what shape is it? round... oh, that thing!
[15:59:38] <tomp> hey the original is in 'comp' format. not c, just dup it, rename it, edit pins to parms & try
[15:59:54] <Rugludallur> tomp: looks the original exists in both formats
[16:00:00] <cradek> Rugludallur: in the past, on other components, we've changed some params to pins for this reason
[16:00:03] <Rugludallur> tomp: I'm poking around
[16:00:24] <tomp> cradek: cool, we can try then
[16:00:26] <Rugludallur> cradek: ok, makes sense
[16:01:03] <cradek> so definitely do that on your system and maybe ask jmk later if he thinks we should do it in the cvs trunk
[16:01:14] <Rugludallur> cradek: ok
[16:03:54] <anonimasu> robin_sz: I dont care really
[16:07:44] <Rugludallur> tomp:cradek: works great now
[16:08:14] <tomp> wicked! good going!
[16:09:43] <Rugludallur> tomp: I'll talk to jmkasunich when he is on and check if he's ok with adding it to trunk
[16:14:29] <tomp> i dunno why parms were different from pins, because some communication was always needed, so maybe consider that all parms become 'wireable' but stay parms. ( to preserve the uniqeness of params, i've been making parms comp.N.param.name & comp.N.param.value & comp.N.param.attr for stuff like counter.N.counts, counter.N.counts.value, counter.N.counts.s32 )
[16:15:59] <cradek> originally to set a value on a pin you had to use a constant block; setp only worked on params. today you can setp a pin so the distinction is maybe not necessary at all
[16:25:37] <alex_joni> hi all
[16:25:57] <tomp> i cant find the conversation jmk and i had in irc, but iirc he didn't want parms on pins, and graphically wanted params internal to the block of the component/driver ( something which i have no solution for in gEDA ). i didnt ask how he imagined changing the param in a graphic way.
[16:26:08] <tomp> alex_joni: happy easter
[16:26:24] <tomp> happy easter to everyone
[16:27:34] <alex_joni> tomp: same to you
[16:27:48] <tomp> i got a card from my sister, with a cartoon of a parade of a bunch of plumbers, in jeans, with their ass cracks showing.... it was a keester parade :)
[16:27:48] <alex_joni> tomp: there is an ongoing plan to convert all params to pins
[16:28:04] <robin_sz> easter? the ancient festival of chocolate
[16:28:06] <alex_joni> although there's no real schedule or goal for that..
[16:28:07] <robin_sz> ??
[16:28:12] <alex_joni> oister
[16:28:42] <robin_sz> * robin_sz googles for oister
[16:29:31] <robin_sz> not much ...
[16:29:37] <alex_joni> I meant oyster
[16:29:40] <tomp> ok, i make gEDA components with params as gEDA pins, but keep the 'param' names, and keep them separate from the pin-type-pins
[16:29:40] <robin_sz> oh :)
[16:29:56] <robin_sz> around here, we had the festival of Eostre
[16:30:23] <alex_joni> ostara?
[16:32:10] <alex_joni> Similar words, which it has been suggested are variations of Eostre's name, include Ostare, Ostara, Ostern, Estre, Ester, Eoster, Eostra, Eastre, Eostur, Eastra, Eastur, Austron, Aurora, and Ausos.
[16:32:38] <tomp> vernal equinox? pagan druidic rituals? it's a spring thing ya know.. the local thai monastery is getting ready for their water-throwing celebration 'Songkran' , a public wet-t-shirt party :)
[16:33:47] <tomp> http://www.all-thailand-exp.com/images/SKF.wmv
[16:34:59] <tomp> sanook di :)
[16:35:47] <robin_sz> ostara I think is the german name for it ... same thing though, went on in much of europe
[16:37:16] <robin_sz> as ever, if you can;t get the local populace to abandon their festivals, best to just tack your own festival onto the back of it and hope no one notices
[16:40:17] <alex_joni> robin_sz: haha
[16:45:56] <alex_joni> tomp: we have the same ceremony actually
[16:46:01] <alex_joni> but not that extreme..
[16:46:16] <alex_joni> splashing girls/women with a couple drops of water :)
[16:58:36] <robin_sz> I dont think we do any ceremonies for anyting anymore ... church attendance is so low now ... like 1% of the population or something
[17:00:50] <tomp> at the water splashing festival, everyone smiles, in church... no one smiles.... take your pick
[17:03:35] <robin_sz> strangley ... the "official" figure is 7.5% attend regularly (once a week) ... our town has 9,000 people and2 churches.
[17:03:58] <robin_sz> that would imply around what? 800 people a week?
[17:04:56] <robin_sz> I dont pay that much attention, but at a guess I would say the most i have seen around on a Sunday has been like 10 or 12 or so ... certainly not several hundred, the rest of the week it is empty
[17:05:20] <robin_sz> I suspect the official figures are wrong, by a fair margin.
[17:05:43] <alex_joni> I just installed an ubuntu on a giveaway machine
[17:05:50] <alex_joni> it was for a 9 years old
[17:05:56] <alex_joni> he has absolutely no issues with it..
[17:07:24] <robin_sz> nice
[17:07:32] <Skullworks_PGAB> I would have signed up for a 5 year indentured servent to have a computer when I was 9...
[17:10:32] <Skullworks_PGAB> When I was 9... TV was so boring... Everything was Watergate this... blah blah blah.
[17:13:49] <Skullworks_PGAB> Although I was 9 when I was taught how to cast lead soldiers... ( I wish I still had the molds!)
[17:14:27] <eric_u> I have some molds, where do you get the lead?
[17:14:54] <Skullworks_PGAB> but today that might seem criminal... At least not ROHs compliant... :)
[17:15:22] <Skullworks_PGAB> US Airforce academy service station.
[17:15:38] <Skullworks_PGAB> got about 1800lbs
[17:15:52] <Skullworks_PGAB> wheel weights
[17:16:03] <tomp> cast green plastic, have fun. Toy Story, hut hut hut hut
[17:16:17] <Rugludallur> scrap meltal yards will let you take it for free much of the time
[17:16:38] <Skullworks_PGAB> green wax... (for investment casting)
[17:16:41] <robin_sz> old pipes, roof material .. lead is everywhere
[17:17:07] <Skullworks_PGAB> yes but you need to be careful
[17:17:19] <robin_sz> whys that?
[17:17:24] <robin_sz> I suppose its quite hot
[17:17:38] <Skullworks_PGAB> metalic lead is really safe
[17:17:54] <robin_sz> you seen that "trick" where you put your hand into a pot of molten lead?
[17:18:05] <Skullworks_PGAB> lead salts ARE water soluble
[17:18:55] <Skullworks_PGAB> and a common element used to harden lead is Arsenic
[17:19:24] <robin_sz> the trick is to use a damp hand, and make sure the lead is very very hot
[17:19:38] <Skullworks_PGAB> photo trick - that lead is called mercury...
[17:19:59] <robin_sz> the water evaporates and forms a layer, separating your hand from the lead
[17:20:05] <robin_sz> no, real molten lead
[17:20:18] <Skullworks_PGAB> no thanks
[17:21:32] <robin_sz> its known as the ledenfrost effect
[17:22:09] <Skullworks_PGAB> I'll run my hand thru oxy-acetylene flame and other crazy stuff - but I don't think you could get your hand wet enough - and even so you would be subject to steam burns.
[17:22:52] <robin_sz> nope
[17:22:57] <robin_sz> http://www.wiley.com/college/phy/halliday320005/pdf/leidenfrost_essay.pdf
[17:23:11] <Rugludallur> nahh molten let won't hurt that bad, It's not that hot
[17:23:13] <Skullworks_PGAB> * Skullworks_PGAB would rather jump a school bus on a motorcycle.
[17:24:03] <robin_sz> Rugludallur, apparently, you need it really hot to work .. it has to stay molten, the LAST thing you want is it to solidify
[17:24:12] <Rugludallur> I have had some splash on me from when water got introduced into a molten led pot, it's no worse than the oil from a deep frier
[17:24:17] <Skullworks_PGAB> its not the temp ( about 800 degrees F ) its the volume of energy stored
[17:26:04] <Rugludallur> bbl
[17:26:23] <robin_sz> nice picture of it being done inthat PDF
[17:26:39] <Skullworks_PGAB> * Skullworks_PGAB will read it thru.
[17:26:52] <Skullworks_PGAB> saved.
[17:27:02] <ottos> gents...
[17:27:23] <alex_joni> good day ottos
[17:27:45] <robin_sz> When I finally overcame my fears and briefly touched
[17:27:46] <robin_sz> the lead, I was amazed. I felt no heat. Just as I had guessed,
[17:27:46] <robin_sz> part of the water on the finger vaporized, forming a protec-
[17:27:46] <robin_sz> tive layer. Since the contact was brief, radiation and con-
[17:27:46] <robin_sz> duction of energy through the vapor layer were insufficient
[17:27:47] <robin_sz> to raise perceptibly the temperature of my flesh. I grew
[17:27:51] <robin_sz> braver. After wetting my hand, I dipped all my fingers into
[17:27:53] <robin_sz> the lead, touching the bottom of the container (Fig. 5). The
[17:27:55] <robin_sz> contact with the lead was still too brief to result in a burn.
[17:28:43] <robin_sz> weird huh?
[17:29:43] <Skullworks_PGAB> most of the time I can't get near the furnace...
[17:30:43] <Skullworks_PGAB> but thats the big out door unit, I guess the small electric one would work
[17:32:39] <alex_joni> robin_sz: the trick is to keep the time to a minimum
[17:34:00] <ottos> gents I don't know if you've seens my post .. working on a grinder.. and I'm wondering if there is any way to implement a laser micrometer or any other devide to messure the grinding wheel wear and implement in in real time to emc..? any ideas..?!
[17:35:04] <alex_joni> implement how?
[17:36:06] <Skullworks_PGAB> might be able to bounce a beam off the ground surface and using paralax calc the height of the wheel center.
[17:36:32] <ds3> what is the information for?
[17:37:08] <Skullworks_PGAB> CNC control of a grinder
[17:37:14] <tomp> sounds like something for hal. you'd need to get the data from the micrometer into some card, maybe a big number, and based on some limit/threshold, change the height of the grinder spindle or do something akin to a tool change ( dress the wheel ) i figure you'd look at changes in the height of the wheel ( radial info) , maybe the edge... )
[17:37:27] <ottos> I was more thinking of using the /2 of the distance between the dreasing wheel and main wheel with torque sensor..?
[17:37:45] <Skullworks_PGAB> the uber cheap method was to track the position of the diamond dresser
[17:38:17] <ds3> or what about putting a strain gage on the dresser and attempt a dressing operation
[17:39:48] <ottos> The diamond dresser location might work.. any of you have any ind of experience with cnc grinders..?
[17:41:02] <ottos> would classic ladder handle this kind of automation?
[17:42:45] <Skullworks_PGAB> forgot to ask - is this a surface grinder or center grinder...
[17:43:04] <Skullworks_PGAB> * Skullworks_PGAB had assumed surface.
[17:43:27] <ottos> a 5-axis tool grinder.. don't laugh.. :D
[17:43:52] <Skullworks_PGAB> laugh nothing - thats a prime use for CNC
[17:44:27] <ottos> I've succesufully inmplemented my 5-axis cnc so I figure I'll push a bit further..
[17:47:49] <Skullworks_PGAB> I can't think of a simple way to do this short of adding something like a reinshaw probe on its own 2 axis tracks.
[17:48:26] <Skullworks_PGAB> your going to require such a fine detail.
[17:49:43] <ottos> not a easy job.. can't find too much info on this one..
[17:50:38] <Skullworks_PGAB> I guess the first step might be to head to a tool show and see how the top dogs do it?
[17:52:27] <ottos> yah.. have to start somewhere..
[17:53:54] <Skullworks_PGAB> you use this as a HSS or carbide grinder?
[17:54:48] <ottos> exactly.. something like the walters mini but emc powered..
[18:00:17] <Skullworks_PGAB> * Skullworks_PGAB would be pulling my hair out.
[18:01:27] <Skullworks_PGAB> I think this is were I would go shopping for an existing unit with a dead control to retrofit.
[18:02:21] <ottos> ya hopefully one has my name on it.. have to run thank you for the info.. will chat next weekend.. cheers..
[18:02:36] <a-l-p-h-a> hey... I made some buss bars... but I can't seem to solder anything to them... I've sanded them, and put flux on both parts... but the solder won't stick at all.
[18:02:40] <Skullworks_PGAB> have a good one
[18:02:55] <a-l-p-h-a> do I need to tin the copper to make it stick?
[18:02:59] <Skullworks_PGAB> more heat!
[18:03:08] <eric_u> sounds like heat issue to me too
[18:03:20] <SWPadnos> big bars of copper are a pain because copper conducts heat so well
[18:03:34] <Skullworks_PGAB> or - get some of that circuit board tinning solution.
[18:04:49] <a-l-p-h-a> I have that stuff...
[18:04:51] <a-l-p-h-a> so I guess I'll use it.
[18:05:02] <a-l-p-h-a> as my 100w gun won't do the trick at all.
[18:05:06] <a-l-p-h-a> fuckers.
[18:05:31] <Skullworks_PGAB> need to use a torch - like sweating copper plumbing
[18:16:57] <ds3> did you clean the surface of the copper?
[18:17:09] <ds3> i.e sand it down with a fine grit paper
[18:17:27] <tomp> maybe swage the cable ends and bolt them to the bus? ( i dont think anybody solders to bus es in industry, they bolt to bus es ) i imagine the conductors to be attached are smaller bus bars or large cables ?
[18:17:56] <eric_u> good point tomp, tap and bolt
[18:18:27] <Skullworks_PGAB> use good oil - tapping copper can be fun...
[18:18:29] <a-l-p-h-a> I'm being just stupid...
[18:18:43] <a-l-p-h-a> I mayjust buy a butane torch to solder there sucks on.
[18:19:05] <Skullworks_PGAB> * Skullworks_PGAB is cheap and lazy - uses brass for bus bars...
[18:21:14] <a-l-p-h-a> still won't solder after tinning them.
[18:21:46] <a-l-p-h-a> I may just get some 3/8" square brass to do this like Skullworks_PGAB suggests.
[18:22:11] <a-l-p-h-a> and put a 8/23 to bold the boards in.
[18:22:14] <a-l-p-h-a> fun stuff.
[18:23:25] <a-l-p-h-a> bolt
[18:25:51] <a-l-p-h-a> would 1/8" copper be thick enough for a 4-40 screw?
[18:37:54] <Skullworks_PGAB> yes
[18:56:09] <a-l-p-h-a> great
[18:56:22] <a-l-p-h-a> time to mill down that bar, and drill/tap it.
[18:56:22] <a-l-p-h-a> fun shit.
[18:57:11] <anonimasu> :)
[18:58:01] <Skullworks_PGAB> If it isn't fun, why would we do it?
[18:58:19] <anonimasu> beause we have to?
[18:58:49] <eric_u> itsa compulsion
[18:59:42] <a-l-p-h-a> this is SOOO going to be not enjoyable to tap.
[19:01:11] <Skullworks_PGAB> just go easy - use the spindle in neutral to drive the tap and some good oil.
[19:01:37] <anonimasu> hehe
[19:01:40] <anonimasu> wuzz :D
[19:01:46] <anonimasu> drive it in under power ;)
[19:02:03] <a-l-p-h-a> anonimasu, uh. YEAH!!! I'll run over there and do that now!
[19:02:18] <anonimasu> just kidding
[19:02:17] <anonimasu> ;)
[19:02:30] <Skullworks_PGAB> classic "do as I say, not as I do..."
[19:02:39] <a-l-p-h-a> <sarcasm>REALLY!!!! I didn't know that!</sarcasm>
[19:03:13] <a-l-p-h-a> damn it... too bad the pizza place is closed... otherwise I'd walk over for a slice.
[19:03:37] <Skullworks_PGAB> well its easter, and we have no one else handy to throw eggs at...
[19:04:35] <skunkworks> culvers was closed today mmmm culvers
[19:04:48] <a-l-p-h-a> culvers?
[19:05:05] <skunkworks> reletively local chain restraunt
[19:05:43] <skunkworks> restaurant
[19:06:16] <Skullworks_PGAB> well our ice storm has converted into a more friendly snow... So I'm still staying home...
[19:14:28] <a-l-p-h-a> bbiab
[19:14:31] <a-l-p-h-a> machine time!
[19:22:16] <robin_sz> ice storm? blimey, we are wandering around in tshirts .. the kids have been playing on the water slide ...
[19:25:40] <Skullworks_PGAB> what city?
[19:35:56] <robin_sz> uk
[19:37:01] <alex_joni> 18C and sunny today here
[19:37:43] <Skullworks_PGAB> UK - thats good enough for a MIRV.
[19:39:22] <a-l-p-h-a> banana bomb!
[19:39:41] <a-l-p-h-a> http://www.scorched3d.co.uk/
[19:55:05] <alex_joni> omg, this is sooo wrong
[19:55:13] <alex_joni> http://www.vgcomputing.com.au/nshpRM749PA.html
[19:55:35] <alex_joni> check the prices for linux instead of winXp
[19:56:42] <Skullworks_PGAB> penalty fee?
[19:56:59] <eric_u> it's even more if there is no os
[19:57:02] <Skullworks_PGAB> order with XP and use DBAN
[19:57:13] <eric_u> what's that?
[19:57:41] <Skullworks_PGAB> http://dban.sourceforge.net/
[19:59:16] <Skullworks_PGAB> Brutally Effective...
[19:59:36] <eric_u> linux will format the disk, no need to use another program
[19:59:48] <eric_u> unless it makes you feel better
[19:59:51] <Skullworks_PGAB> DBAN is linux based
[20:00:11] <Jymmm> cradek: Thought you might like the animated SVG in the topic
[20:18:32] <a-l-p-h-a> so much fun... ground a 4/40 tap to make it a bottoming tap. :) it sucks making... but wicked when finished... and then you want more
[20:19:33] <a-l-p-h-a> buahhaha.
[20:19:47] <a-l-p-h-a> re: laptop OS
[20:23:29] <Jymmm> I read an article once that said the best "flatness" on a hand-held belt snader is one with a "graffite platen". The only graphite I can think of is either pencil, powder, or like golf clubs, is there some other form that I'm not aware of?
[20:23:59] <eric_u> it comes in bricks
[20:24:01] <alex_joni> diamonds?
[20:24:14] <Jymmm> alex_joni wouldnt' that be carbon?
[20:24:29] <alex_joni> they are related
[20:24:47] <alex_joni> but I suspect you can get graphite into a harder shape
[20:24:55] <Jymmm> eric_u bricks huh? From what I gathered is sounded like a piece of graphite material.
[20:25:11] <Skullworks_PGAB> isn't slate related?
[20:25:26] <Jymmm> like fabric
[20:25:58] <Jymmm> http://cgi.ebay.com/MAKITA-Belt-Sander-GRAPHITE-CARBON-Plate-NEW-for-9924DB_W0QQitemZ330106479115QQihZ014QQcategoryZ20782QQcmdZViewItem
[20:26:22] <Jymmm> alex_joni so it is =)
[20:27:38] <Jymmm> it seems like a graphite plate iwould be harder to locate than a piece of teflon - and not sure which would actually be the better one
[20:28:05] <cradek> Jymmm: that is cool, but can we keep the topic EMC-related?
[20:28:27] <eric_u> go to http://www.mcmaster.com/ and search for 9121K61
[20:29:00] <eric_u> it says there when you machine it with EMC, use carbide tools
[20:30:18] <Jymmm> eric_u it actually says "...with EMC" huh??? ;)
[20:30:25] <eric_u> had to keep it emc related
[20:30:29] <Jymmm> lol
[20:30:43] <cradek> bah
[20:30:56] <Jymmm> EMC Machine using diamond tools
[20:31:16] <cradek> cradek has changed the topic to: Welcome! EMC (Enhanced Machine Controller) is a linux-based opensource CNC control. | Latest release: EMC 2.1.4 | http://www.linuxcnc.org | http://wiki.linuxcnc.org
[20:32:07] <Jymmm> Isn't graphite brittle? like a peice of glass?
[20:32:53] <anonimasu> Jymmm: ask tomp about it :)
[20:33:04] <Jymmm> anonimasu why tomp?
[20:33:27] <a-l-p-h-a> shit!! STRIPPED THE threads in one of the bolts.
[20:33:41] <anonimasu> Jymmm: because he's a edm guru..
[20:33:56] <anonimasu> and they use graphite for tooling
[20:33:58] <Skullworks_PGAB> loco poco?
[20:34:39] <Jymmm> anonimasu Ah, cool. good to know.
[20:34:59] <Skullworks_PGAB> hmm - tungsten / copper / graphite bond
[20:35:12] <Jymmm> Ouch.... 1/16" x 12" x 12" == $48
[20:37:09] <Jymmm> I wonder if a piece of teflon would work the same?
[20:37:23] <Skullworks_PGAB> teflon is squishy
[20:38:23] <Jymmm> well, that wouldn't be too good for flatness =)
[20:38:46] <Skullworks_PGAB> Jymmm have you tried lapping on a B grade granite surface plate?
[20:38:56] <anonimasu> Jymmm: well, I dont know if you can even machine gaphite..
[20:39:11] <anonimasu> if what's what you were going to do
[20:39:12] <anonimasu> :)
[20:39:20] <Jymmm> Skullworks_PGAB The closest thin I have ato a granite plate is a sheet of glas I took from a photocopier.
[20:39:55] <Jymmm> anonimasu Just taking an idea from a makita belt sander and use it on a bench belt sander
[20:40:47] <Jymmm> I'm using 400 grit, and the spot weld pots don't make it too flat
[20:40:52] <Jymmm> points
[20:41:46] <Skullworks_PGAB> get a 12"x18" and tape the paper down on the granite.
[20:41:58] <Skullworks_PGAB> B grade is cheap
[20:42:31] <Jymmm> Skullworks_PGAB: What am I suppose to be lapping btw?
[20:44:45] <Skullworks_PGAB> what ever you want a flat good finish on.
[20:45:50] <robin_sz> thick plate glass is flat enough for most people
[20:45:58] <robin_sz> needs to be 20mm or so really though
[20:46:06] <jtr> Jymmm: the graphite platen they are mentioning is a sheet of graphite impregnated fiber, IIRC
[20:46:51] <robin_sz> anonimasu, you certainly can machine grpahite, its done all the time in the die-sinker industry
[20:47:15] <anonimasu> robin_sz: did you read what I wrote?
[20:47:31] <anonimasu> robin_sz: Jymmm has an aluminium frame router..
[20:47:43] <robin_sz> " well, I dont know if you can even machine gaphite.."
[20:47:56] <anonimasu> robin_sz: "YOU" as in jymm
[20:48:06] <robin_sz> right ...
[20:48:32] <anonimasu> also the dust is hazardous..
[20:48:51] <robin_sz> well, I guess he can, but its not going to come out pretty if theres any movement in the machine bed
[20:49:13] <robin_sz> it can produce amazing detail ... which is good
[20:49:24] <robin_sz> if your machine is rock solid
[20:49:42] <robin_sz> and very unforgiving if its not I guess
[20:49:47] <Jymmm> I'm not wanting to machine graphite, just cut-to-size and mount as the platen for a belt sander
[20:50:04] <robin_sz> coo
[20:50:14] <robin_sz> that sounds unlikely to work to be honest
[20:50:19] <robin_sz> grpahite is very soft
[20:51:22] <robin_sz> most commercial machiens use cast iron I think
[20:51:23] <Jymmm> robin_sz: Makita, Bosch, Delta is where I got the idea from... http://www.google.com/search?q=belt+sander+graphite&sa=Search+Google
[20:51:32] <jtr> http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=878-512 graphite platen
[20:51:35] <anonimasu> brinell seems to be at around 140 for graphite..
[20:52:11] <anonimasu> no..
[20:52:18] <Jymmm> jtr thanks for the link
[20:53:37] <robin_sz> I'd think its like jtr said, some sort of grpahite impregnated fibre ...
[20:53:57] <robin_sz> pure graphite would not last long at all, and the black dust would make a right mess of your wood
[20:54:40] <jtr> Jymmm: Welcome. The sheet metal platen on my Crapsman hand belt sander was bent in a brake.
[20:55:36] <Jymmm> jtr That's what I'm talking about, but especially the spot welds that make a dimple
[20:56:33] <robin_sz> sand em flat with a belt sander! .... ;)
[20:56:40] <Jymmm> <rimshot>
[20:57:26] <jtr> Turn the belt inside out! make it sand itself flat first. ;-)
[20:57:47] <robin_sz> the only "real" belt sanders Ive seen had cast iron beds from what I recall
[20:58:21] <Jymmm> robin_sz Well, I can't only afford "fake" belt sander
[20:58:31] <Jymmm> s/can't/can/
[21:02:39] <robin_sz> when I say "real" I mean "bloody great big three phase things that would take your arm off" ... so yeah, a home/workshop one is going to be different
[21:05:59] <anonimasu> 1 heh
[21:09:47] <jtr> How big are these dimples? How are they distributed - at the ends, in the middle?
[21:11:09] <jtr> You may have twist in the platen than would swamp any error from the dimples.
[21:13:59] <Jymmm> the cross pieces that are spot welded underneith, 1/4" diameter, not sure on the height
[21:15:26] <anonimasu> Jymmm: can you weld the spots and sand them flat?
[21:16:04] <Jymmm> I cna probably sand them down,
[21:16:44] <jtr> I'd check for bow and twist in the platen - I've got it on my table saw fence, made the same way.
[21:17:27] <Jymmm> jtr Not much I can do about that if it is, probably would make it worse.
[21:19:58] <jtr> I understand, but if you can accept the bow/twist, the dimples may get lost in the noise.
[21:20:55] <Jymmm> It's jsut the high spots that muck me up a bit. I thought the graphite thing might help minimize their impact.
[21:21:45] <alex_joni> have you guys used http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Execution_Prevention ?
[21:23:00] <Jymmm> alex_joni I have it disabled
[21:23:08] <alex_joni> Jymmm: any reasons?
[21:24:13] <alex_joni> I can't find bad things about it online
[21:24:49] <eric_u> doesn't seem to work
[21:24:51] <jtr> Depending on the size of the high spots, a dremel or a big fat mill file can be your friend.
[21:24:52] <anonimasu> alex_joni: that's a bit like openwall..
[21:24:57] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Just too many issues with XP "taking control" of things w/o any kind of logging or intuitive dialogs.
[21:25:27] <anonimasu> Jymmm: did it ever stop you from doing anything?
[21:26:05] <eric_u> when I say doesn't seem to work I mean it doesn't stop buffer overflow attacks
[21:26:12] <alex_joni> eric_u: why not?
[21:26:15] <eric_u> they just patched a buffer overflow last week
[21:26:16] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Example... I was testing a new AV proggie, and used a EICAR test virus, instead of getting a intuitive dialog box, XP said "Access has been denied for C:\eicar.com" no reaosn what so ever was given.
[21:27:15] <alex_joni> Jymmm: not something like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7b/Data_Execution_Prevention_blocked_program.png ??
[21:27:23] <Jymmm> alex_joni: The purpose of the EICAR is to actually test AV programs, so if M$ is refusing access to the test file, I cna never use it for it's purpose.
[21:27:51] <Jymmm> alex_joni, no not like that.
[21:30:23] <eric_u> does windows turn DEP off for microsoft programs?
[21:31:16] <alex_joni> eric_u: it was/is disabled by default on this install
[21:33:54] <alex_joni> * alex_joni is restoring an dapper vmdk
[21:34:15] <alex_joni> good thing I decided to save that.. saves me from a new install I hope
[21:43:58] <alex_joni> yay.. it still runs
[21:58:44] <alex_joni> 133 updates though..
[22:07:33] <robin_sz> I failed to order new dell laptop this week
[22:07:52] <robin_sz> I WILL NOT buy one with vista. period.
[22:08:26] <robin_sz> we have ... 6 or 7 windows machines at work .. all XP, I just about understand it .. I dotn wantto learn some new crap
[22:08:26] <eric_u> you have to go into the business class to get one with xp, I think
[22:08:56] <robin_sz> the one I want, a Precision M90 mobile workstation, is only with Vista
[22:09:19] <robin_sz> and the CAD/CAM I want to use with it is only certified under XP
[22:09:47] <robin_sz> there is no point seekign out a certified workstation, if theyve chnaged the OS
[22:10:08] <Skullworks_PGAB> Actually there are many laptops with XP avail - since the mfg have cheapped out so much to be price competitive.
[22:10:26] <robin_sz> it needs to be solidworks certified
[22:10:35] <Skullworks_PGAB> that many laptops don't meet AERO's min hardware spec
[22:11:06] <Skullworks_PGAB> so M$ relented and allowed them to continue to ship with XP
[22:11:09] <robin_sz> sorta irrelevant, as it wont be running vista
[22:11:20] <robin_sz> right
[22:11:33] <ds3> side question, why solid works?
[22:11:43] <robin_sz> becuase its the industry standard?
[22:11:47] <Skullworks_PGAB> Because it is the bomb!
[22:12:30] <ds3> does that mean if it is industrial standard to jump out of planes without parachutes, you will choose that too?
[22:12:45] <Skullworks_PGAB> Solidworks isn't just engineering - its a sales tool now
[22:12:50] <robin_sz> quite
[22:13:05] <alex_joni> robin_sz: mine is solidworks certified
[22:13:09] <ds3> still doesn't explain it
[22:13:12] <alex_joni> laptop though
[22:13:21] <robin_sz> ds3, am I missing your point?
[22:13:24] <alex_joni> HP notebook workstation 8440
[22:13:44] <Skullworks_PGAB> ds3 - there is nothing close to SW
[22:13:51] <robin_sz> alex_joni, im consdiering a Dell Precision M90 with fx2500
[22:13:53] <ds3> robin_sz: yes; I want to know what makes solidworks (feature wise) worthwhile; I do not care about what everyone else uses
[22:14:07] <alex_joni> robin_sz: ooh.. nice ;)
[22:14:08] <ds3> Skullworks_PGAB: in what ways?
[22:14:10] <alex_joni> this one
[22:14:22] <alex_joni> this one's ati (fireGl 5200)
[22:14:28] <robin_sz> ds3, well, I live in the real world, soI have ot consider what everyone else uses ...
[22:14:48] <Skullworks_PGAB> rapid part developement in solding model form
[22:14:51] <alex_joni> robin_sz: you mean paying customers of yours
[22:14:59] <alex_joni> who submit parts & drawings
[22:15:08] <ds3> Skullworks_PGAB: doesn't ProE offer that too?
[22:15:21] <Skullworks_PGAB> once model fits the need a full multi view print takes only seconds to complete
[22:15:45] <Skullworks_PGAB> ProE is... compost
[22:15:59] <robin_sz> ds3, basically, its sheetmetal capability rocks. its ease of use rocks, its ability to produce drawings of models, flat patterns, and eDrawings for viewing in 3D by costomers rocks
[22:16:11] <robin_sz> I looked at proE, it sucks.
[22:16:12] <Skullworks_PGAB> Our compamy spent 6 months on a project in ProE
[22:16:38] <Skullworks_PGAB> Could not make it happen
[22:17:00] <ds3> okay, those are the reasons I am trying to find out
[22:17:06] <Skullworks_PGAB> outside consultant came in with SW and had the whole project done in 4 days
[22:17:10] <robin_sz> I have a set of 20 or so parts from proE this week ... supposed to acheive +- 0.2mm after laser and bending
[22:17:26] <robin_sz> they are +- 2.5mm out on blank size
[22:17:33] <robin_sz> 4 days ? awesome :)
[22:17:54] <Skullworks_PGAB> yep
[22:17:55] <ds3> so it is not really the cad part, it is the plugin logic that gives it the value, robin_sz?
[22:18:02] <robin_sz> no
[22:18:11] <robin_sz> the Cad part is awesoem too
[22:18:26] <robin_sz> I candraw in SW 10 times faster than I can in autocad
[22:18:36] <robin_sz> even for 2d
[22:18:42] <ds3> Hmmm
[22:18:49] <Skullworks_PGAB> I'm still learning - but what I have found so far has saved me weeks worth of work on some projects
[22:18:49] <robin_sz> and im quick in autocad
[22:18:57] <ds3> what about Inventor?
[22:19:12] <anonimasu> robin_sz: oh, just 10 times?
[22:19:14] <ds3> or for that matter, Alibre?
[22:19:20] <robin_sz> sigh ...
[22:19:22] <Skullworks_PGAB> Plus it handles assemblies...
[22:19:27] <robin_sz> harder to use
[22:19:36] <robin_sz> subassemblies are great
[22:19:38] <Skullworks_PGAB> that is where it really shines
[22:19:39] <anonimasu> robin_sz: I figures it'd be 1000 times;)
[22:19:40] <robin_sz> yep
[22:19:56] <eric_u> we tried using ProE, back to solidworks now
[22:20:15] <eric_u> if only because the program doesn't tell you it's checking your license every 10 minutes
[22:20:23] <robin_sz> anonimasu, I am fairly fast in autocad, I drive it fromthe command line mainly
[22:20:32] <anonimasu> HEHE
[22:20:35] <anonimasu> ok
[22:20:49] <robin_sz> but SW ... its just so much faster
[22:20:55] <eric_u> we built our segway RMP robot using ProE
[22:20:57] <ds3> this is interesting, I posed the same q to another person and he was all for ProE being able to handle details that vary by orders of magnitude (i.e. like a bolt on an aircraft carrier)
[22:21:15] <robin_sz> SW does that
[22:21:38] <Skullworks_PGAB> I have some eprint files of the supercharger we made for a harley...
[22:21:43] <robin_sz> OK, so you have to remember to reslove stuff as featherweight on big projects
[22:21:56] <ds3> yes, but his argument is SW has problems zooming between the full picture and the details, i.e. crashing or taking forever
[22:22:01] <robin_sz> Skullworks_PGAB, you can supercharge a harley?
[22:22:05] <Skullworks_PGAB> the drive replaced the case casting
[22:22:07] <anonimasu> Skullworks_PGAB: nice
[22:22:14] <robin_sz> Skullworks_PGAB, nice
[22:22:38] <Skullworks_PGAB> that would have taken weeks with other cad
[22:22:39] <robin_sz> Skullworks_PGAB, one of my welders has a harley, bu the PTO is not working on it
[22:23:18] <robin_sz> Skullworks_PGAB, it drives OK, but the PTO slips, just as the baler is tying a bale usually
[22:24:01] <robin_sz> Skullworks_PGAB, but hes getting a nice "Screaming Eagle" 8 bladed reversible plough for it
[22:25:17] <robin_sz> Alibre is cheaper ... but, well, whats the point?
[22:29:12] <alex_joni> s/cheaper/freeish/
[22:29:48] <robin_sz> and?
[22:29:57] <alex_joni> and nothing..
[22:30:03] <robin_sz> I suppose its good for students
[22:30:06] <alex_joni> makes sense for me
[22:30:10] <robin_sz> fair enough
[22:30:28] <robin_sz> you know SW hat autodesk with a passion?
[22:30:29] <alex_joni> although it sux at 2D
[22:30:29] <robin_sz> hate
[22:30:46] <anonimasu> robin_sz: if you actually have to buy a program, I guess there is a big point
[22:30:49] <Skullworks_PGAB> Solidworks is one of those items you just byte the bullet and sign the check, because not having it costs more.
[22:31:22] <robin_sz> so ... you know SW hate autoDesk ... well, why does anyone EVER upgrade their copy of autocad?
[22:31:26] <robin_sz> well?
[22:31:37] <robin_sz> theres only one reason as far as I can see
[22:31:54] <robin_sz> thats because people keep sending you files in the new verison you can;t open
[22:31:57] <robin_sz> right?
[22:32:03] <alex_joni> right
[22:32:05] <bytecolor> muahah
[22:32:11] <robin_sz> so ... what did SW release?
[22:32:34] <robin_sz> an autocad plugin that allows any version of autocad to open any other version
[22:32:38] <robin_sz> price?
[22:32:43] <robin_sz> free.
[22:32:43] <alex_joni> free?
[22:32:53] <alex_joni> did I win anything for guessing that?
[22:33:00] <Skullworks_PGAB> torpedo...
[22:33:07] <robin_sz> OK ... so thats the existing users revenue stream gone
[22:33:13] <robin_sz> now what about new users?
[22:33:33] <robin_sz> say you just want a viewer?
[22:33:46] <alex_joni> eDrawings is the best free viewer
[22:33:51] <alex_joni> I use it all the time
[22:33:51] <robin_sz> SW have released an autocad viewer
[22:33:52] <robin_sz> yeah
[22:34:01] <robin_sz> OK, but what if you want to create 2D?
[22:34:04] <alex_joni> not just for acad.. most anything works
[22:34:08] <bytecolor> eDrawings is pretty cool
[22:34:23] <robin_sz> youve guessed it .. they have released a autocad-lookalike
[22:34:31] <bytecolor> and it doesnt require solidworks to be installed afaik
[22:34:32] <alex_joni> free?
[22:34:34] <robin_sz> even down to the command line inteface and the layer tool
[22:34:39] <robin_sz> yep, free
[22:34:46] <alex_joni> robin_sz: woo.. where?
[22:34:51] <alex_joni> * alex_joni runs off to get that
[22:34:53] <robin_sz> Solidworks.com
[22:35:23] <robin_sz> if you have any autodesk shares, Id sell them :)
[22:35:41] <bytecolor> autocad still has a huge base
[22:36:06] <robin_sz> but .. its revenue stream will be slashed now
[22:36:14] <alex_joni> http://www.solidworks.com/pages/infofor/AutoCADUsers.html
[22:36:14] <alex_joni> haha
[22:36:46] <robin_sz> its not just war ... thats mass slaughter
[22:37:38] <alex_joni> oh.. the 2D stuff is free with any SW purchase :/
[22:37:48] <bytecolor> now... if they would only port some of these freebies to linux
[22:37:58] <robin_sz> ? it was just free for a while ...
[22:38:32] <robin_sz> ah yes, the editor is payware now .. weird
[22:39:49] <alex_joni> darn
[22:39:56] <robin_sz> 3 licences for every SW seat
[22:40:42] <Skullworks_PGAB> might have been some FTC strongarm going on behind the scenes.
[22:41:13] <robin_sz> it was just a bribe to get you to register for a while
[22:41:35] <robin_sz> http://www.dwggateway.com/
[22:41:39] <Skullworks_PGAB> not supposed to dump ( give away free )
[22:41:42] <robin_sz> thats the autoDesk revenue killer
[22:42:27] <Skullworks_PGAB> FTC does not have a sense of humor
[23:36:22] <alex_joni> good night all