#emc | Logs for 2007-04-05

[01:00:55] <skunkworks> I bought one of these at target today after seeing one. http://www.amazon.com/Air-Hogs-Havoc-Heli-RED/dp/B000NU0CWI
[01:01:07] <skunkworks> 24 dollars and it works pretty decent.
[01:01:13] <skunkworks> unreal
[01:02:14] <skunkworks> li-po battery and a pretty decent fly time. 20 minute recharge
[01:03:05] <skunkworks> 2 chanel
[01:03:07] <skunkworks> channel
[01:04:58] <toastydeath> buy two, then
[01:05:02] <toastydeath> strap BB guns to them
[01:05:07] <toastydeath> DOGFIGHT
[01:08:17] <skunkworks> This thing is like 6 inches long. it would have to be a very small bb gun
[01:09:06] <toastydeath> make one!
[01:10:07] <toastydeath> with a little BB magazine and everything.
[01:20:52] <skunkworks> they come in 3 different 'stations'. They are infrared though - so they don't work the greatest outside or under really bright lights.
[01:21:00] <skunkworks> channels I mean
[01:21:14] <skunkworks> not had an isssue yet
[01:21:55] <toastydeath> oh
[01:22:32] <skunkworks> but for 24 dollars... :)
[01:24:25] <skunkworks> http://youtube.com/watch?v=XjG2gZFRXSs
[01:24:36] <skunkworks> although I don't think I would fly it around children
[01:31:43] <skunkworks> the cats are interested in it though ;)
[02:05:15] <CIA-19> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/share/axis/tcl/axis.tcl: unobtrusively save view preferences
[02:05:14] <CIA-19> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: unobtrusively save view preferences
[02:20:52] <cradek> I have a Dell Inspiron laptop with WinXP Pro SP2 installed and I was attempting to resize a partition on it using Partition Magic in order to install Linux when the power on my laptop ran out and it shut down without any warning mid-process. Now I cannot reboot into WinXP
[02:21:04] <cradek> ^^ wow, if there was ever a thing to not do on battery power, that's it
[02:22:08] <jmkasunich> hoo boy
[02:22:19] <jmkasunich> I guess thats one way to move to a better operating system
[02:22:35] <cradek> "when was your last backup?" </always my answer in those situations>
[02:22:47] <jmkasunich> "the day before never"
[02:23:04] <cradek> yeah
[02:24:21] <jmkasunich> i resisted.....
[02:24:25] <cradek> ?
[02:24:33] <jmkasunich> my reply to fengli
[02:24:56] <jmkasunich> I so wanted to say "if you have to ask this question, you can't write a gui"
[02:24:58] <skunkworks> cradek: what model inspiron?
[02:25:21] <jmkasunich> skunkworks: I don't think cradek is the one who did that
[02:25:25] <cradek> skunkworks: it's a post from a forum
[02:25:31] <skunkworks> oh
[02:25:33] <skunkworks> oops
[02:25:41] <jmkasunich> he wouldn't be so foolish as to use windows in the first place
[02:25:43] <cradek> skunkworks: I don't use windows, and I'm not dumb enough to do something like that on battery :-)
[02:25:52] <cradek> and I make backups!
[02:25:55] <skunkworks> I was wondering..
[02:25:59] <cradek> yay me
[02:26:18] <cradek> * cradek pats /me on the back
[02:26:32] <jmkasunich> don't dislocate yer elbow there...
[02:27:40] <jmkasunich> does this website look as fscked up on your screens as it does on mine? http://www.geocachingbullets.com/
[02:28:21] <cradek> looks ok.
[02:28:33] <jmkasunich> the text isn't screwy?
[02:28:33] <skunkworks> guy at work dislocated his shoulder by flipping a quad runner. He went to the hospital and had it popped back in. was given directions and a sling. got home - decided that he didn;t need the sling. promply popped the shoulder back out. back to the hospital he went.
[02:28:41] <cradek> nope
[02:29:04] <cradek> skunkworks: I'm happy all my joints have stayed together so far...
[02:29:22] <cradek> that seems so freaky
[02:29:32] <skunkworks> same here.
[02:29:36] <cradek> I guess I'm still squeamish about being made of meat
[02:30:06] <skunkworks> humans are meat containers? ;)
[02:30:20] <cradek> yes, freaky isn't it
[02:30:33] <skunkworks> ok - time for bed - night guys.
[02:30:53] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/gb.png this is how it looks to me
[02:31:13] <jmkasunich> (the site belongs to my doze using html illiterate brother
[02:32:09] <cradek> that's surprisingly bad
[02:32:24] <jmkasunich> it was even worse on my 150dpi laptop
[02:32:28] <jmkasunich> text scaling issues
[02:32:41] <cradek> yeah I'm 75dpi on this laptop
[02:32:43] <jmkasunich> he used some horrible piece of crap authoring tool
[02:32:51] <cradek> yeah obviously
[02:32:54] <jmkasunich> that used fixed pixel locations for everything!
[02:33:51] <cradek> yeah through some miracle my default text setting looks ok
[02:34:01] <cradek> of course, it goes to hell if I enlarge or reduce it
[02:34:20] <jmkasunich> the sad thing is, they're proud of their crap:
[02:34:22] <jmkasunich> "<!--
[02:34:22] <jmkasunich> The following Html Code was generated by CoffeeCup Visual Site Designer.
[02:34:22] <jmkasunich> Copyright 2006, CoffeeCup Software, Inc.
[02:34:22] <jmkasunich> http://www.coffeecup.com"
[02:34:29] <cradek> haha
[02:34:42] <cradek> wow, I figured it would be years older (like ancient frontpage)
[02:36:37] <cradek> it's only two pages? Just rewrite it for him?
[02:36:42] <jmkasunich> thats what I'm gonna do
[02:36:54] <jmkasunich> it will be about 1/10 as long ;-)
[02:37:08] <jmkasunich> they have CSS and frames and javascript...
[02:37:24] <cradek> of course, javascript belongs on every static page
[02:37:47] <cradek> (you'll probably want to use CSS to float the images to the sides)
[02:37:57] <cradek> frames!? do people still use those?
[02:37:57] <jmkasunich> I don't know CSS
[02:38:08] <jmkasunich> I think the frame is something else actually
[02:38:27] <jmkasunich> when you view source on the original url, you get some weird stuff that I think boils down to a redirect of sorts
[02:38:38] <jmkasunich> (probably from whoever is doing his domain name for him)
[02:38:49] <jmkasunich> the actual page is at http://users.zoominternet.net/~kas200/index.htm
[02:39:02] <jmkasunich> the frame is on that first page
[02:39:05] <cradek> huh, it is a frameset with only one frame
[02:39:15] <jmkasunich> the coffeecup stuff is on the redirected page
[02:39:40] <jmkasunich> I don't know anything about frames either
[02:40:21] <cradek> <span style="float:right"><img src="..."></span>
[02:40:33] <cradek> this is how you float an image very simply
[02:41:33] <jmkasunich> I sometimes use a table with one row and two cells - one for the pic, one for the text
[02:41:41] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich just barely passed HTML 101
[02:41:44] <cradek> so <p>text......<span ...><img ...></span></p> is the basic layout he needs
[02:42:18] <cradek> that works too, but can't flow the text around the image
[02:44:34] <jmkasunich> DIV.Object2 { position:absolute; top:1px; left:477px; z-index:2; }
[02:44:42] <jmkasunich> somebody is too OOPed
[02:44:52] <jmkasunich> every thing on the page is one of those objects
[02:44:53] <cradek> craptacular
[02:45:00] <jmkasunich> pics, each paragraph of text....
[02:45:14] <cradek> congratulations, you fail at html
[02:45:15] <jmkasunich> and every one is positioned with absolute coords
[02:45:25] <cradek> did he buy that shit program?
[02:45:39] <jmkasunich> he said something about using a free demo
[02:46:00] <jmkasunich> which has since expired
[02:46:09] <cradek> HAHAHA they sell it!
[02:46:13] <jmkasunich> yep
[02:46:37] <jmkasunich> not for a lot - they have a bunch of products between $25 and $50
[02:46:51] <jmkasunich> I didn't bother trying to figure out which one that was
[02:48:26] <cradek> I notice they didn't use it to design their own site
[02:48:57] <cradek> if (manufacturer.indexOf('Microsoft') >= 0 && versionnum < 4.0)
[02:48:56] <cradek> location.href = 'files/error.html';
[02:49:11] <cradek> always be sure to give an error and refuse to serve your page if you don't like something about their browser!
[02:49:52] <jmkasunich> better - the error page doesn't work
[02:49:56] <jmkasunich> (I think)
[02:50:00] <cradek> I noticed that too
[02:50:22] <cradek> ok enough :-)
[02:50:22] <jmkasunich> I'm fetching the images from files/IMG_1.jpg, etc, I assume files/error.html should be in the same place
[02:51:00] <Jymmm> Jymmm is now known as ImInNoMoodForBS
[03:00:33] <ImInNoMoodForBS> ImInNoMoodForBS is now known as Jymmmmmmm
[03:03:06] <jtr> This page flows text around the images without css: http://home.triad.rr.com/landj07/LoganCompound.html
[03:03:45] <jmkasunich> IMG SRC paths are relative to the location of the file they are invoked in? or relative to the root of the webserver tree?
[03:04:38] <jtr> location of file, unless there is a BASE directive in the file.
[03:04:46] <cradek> jtr: that page doesn't render well for me
[03:04:46] <jmkasunich> thanks
[03:04:49] <jmkasunich> I figured out what I was doing wrong
[03:04:59] <cradek> some of the text is over the images
[03:05:26] <jtr> cradek: my page?
[03:05:48] <cradek> haha! First, you make a roux. Oops, sorry, different subject.
[03:06:04] <cradek> jtr: yeah
[03:07:44] <jtr> what browser? looks ok on firefox and Konq (on my pc)
[03:08:00] <cradek> firefox
[03:10:46] <jtr> I just read about a hspace (I thik) attribute for the image that will give me some blank space around the images - wonder if that would be enough.
[03:10:59] <jtr> s/thik/think/
[03:12:01] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/logan.png
[03:12:08] <cradek> finally got a screengrab for you...
[03:13:30] <jtr> I'm not sure how to fix it correctly, but I do want to fix it. Thanks for the png. Oh yuck.
[03:17:08] <jtr> Oh, I see - if I narrow my browser window, it goes to pot. crap
[03:21:31] <jtr> Thanks for the heads up, cradek. Gotta run.
[03:22:09] <cradek> np
[03:28:00] <Jymmmmmmm> Jymmmmmmm is now known as Jymm
[03:28:48] <jmkasunich> hmm - any time you have text next to a pic, it gets messy if the width of the window changes radically
[03:29:11] <jmkasunich> the text can wind up much shorter or much taller than the pic
[03:29:22] <cradek> yep
[03:29:26] <cradek> that's why it's best if it can flow
[03:30:08] <jmkasunich> my book doesn't have a decent explanation of <span></span>
[03:30:12] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich googles
[03:30:35] <Jymm> http://w3schools.com/css/css_intro.asp
[03:30:49] <Jymm> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Css
[03:31:14] <Jymm> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Span_and_div
[03:31:35] <jmkasunich> I was trying to avoid CSS, but I'll keep an open mind
[03:31:49] <Jymm> <span> is DOM
[03:32:12] <Jymm> oh you mean using <span><div> tags?
[03:32:59] <Jymm> <span> is HTML, and part of the DOM
[03:34:02] <Jymm> I love the concept of CSS, hate the implentation of it though.
[03:34:40] <toastydeath> span is for text
[03:34:47] <toastydeath> <b> and <i> are examples of <span>
[03:35:08] <toastydeath> <div> is more for stuff you would have put in tables
[03:35:17] <toastydeath> (for anyone interested in <div> or <span>)
[03:35:19] <toastydeath> (i will shut up now)
[03:40:18] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/sb.html
[03:40:26] <jmkasunich> getting better
[03:40:37] <jmkasunich> http://users.zoominternet.net/~kas200/index.htm
[03:40:45] <jmkasunich> that was the original
[03:42:04] <jmkasunich> gotta admit the fixed layout is "prettier" (assumng the fonts don't stop all over themselves)
[03:43:44] <jmkasunich> s/stop/step
[03:43:45] <toastydeath> do you want criticism
[03:43:59] <jmkasunich> no, I want help ;-)
[03:44:06] <toastydeath> well, that's kind of what i mean
[03:44:10] <jmkasunich> I know
[03:44:22] <jmkasunich> sorry, being a smart-aleck
[03:44:26] <toastydeath> like, what's the purpose for the page
[03:44:44] <jmkasunich> selling those silly things
[03:45:00] <jmkasunich> its my brother's page - dunno if you saw the start of the discussion
[03:45:16] <toastydeath> nah, i'm just now jumping in
[03:45:31] <jmkasunich> he used a crap tool to make the original
[03:45:36] <Jymm> jmkasunich what are you trying to acomplish there?
[03:45:41] <jmkasunich> it looks like this on my box: http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/gb.png
[03:46:07] <toastydeath> the second page for me is all fucked up
[03:46:25] <jmkasunich> Jymm: trying to make it look pretty much like the original (in terms of layout) but not so broken if somebody has a different dots per inch or font size
[03:46:31] <jmkasunich> toastydeath: thats the point
[03:46:44] <toastydeath> there needs to be more texyt
[03:46:43] <toastydeath> *text
[03:47:16] <toastydeath> i think the first problem is that there's not enough to make multiple pages
[03:47:17] <Jymm> jmkasunich is this the original html? http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/sb.html
[03:47:20] <jmkasunich> I posted one URL at my site (jmkasunich.dyndns.org), one at another site, and one that is a png of a screencap
[03:47:29] <jmkasunich> Jymm: no, thats my latest attempt
[03:47:49] <jmkasunich> this is the original: http://users.zoominternet.net/~kas200/index.htm
[03:48:07] <jmkasunich> the png a few lines up is the original on my screen
[03:48:09] <toastydeath> you don't want to take up the full screen
[03:48:41] <jmkasunich> toastydeath: I agree that the overall layout is kind of poor too
[03:48:41] <toastydeath> long lines of text are hard to read, capping the character per line number at 65-70 is good
[03:48:43] <Jymm> jmkasunich Is that all the content that is going to be added?
[03:48:45] <toastydeath> makes it readable
[03:48:48] <jmkasunich> but thats up to my brother
[03:49:45] <jmkasunich> the link to the 2nd page works on the original URL
[03:49:58] <jmkasunich> there is about the same amount of info on that page
[03:50:04] <toastydeath> you could do what i do
[03:50:05] <Jymm> jmkasunich: Am to you of course, BUT this is what I would do for now.... Use CSS strictly for fonts and leave the layour in tables. It'll make things simper all around as th proggy he's using is not generating compliant markup.
[03:50:13] <toastydeath> you're doing work for free
[03:50:17] <Jymm> s/Am/Up/
[03:50:26] <toastydeath> the cost of a no-charge webpage is I do it properly
[03:50:33] <jmkasunich> the proggy he used is total crap
[03:50:33] <toastydeath> and get to override any crappy ideas the person has
[03:50:41] <toastydeath> re-write it
[03:50:54] <jmkasunich> have you seen the 2nd page yet?
[03:50:57] <toastydeath> that would take twenty minutes to re-write, tops
[03:51:03] <toastydeath> and get the same general result
[03:51:09] <toastydeath> then you'd have some readable code to work with
[03:51:12] <Jymm> jmkasunich maybe have him try this instead... http://portableapps.com/apps/development/nvu_portable
[03:51:25] <jmkasunich> Jymm: I'm not gonna have him try anything
[03:51:41] <jmkasunich> I'mm gonna toss some HTML at him and say "here, what you had was crap, use this"
[03:51:42] <Jymm> why>
[03:51:43] <Jymm> ?
[03:51:50] <Jymm> ah ok
[03:52:09] <jmkasunich> the tool he used did _everything_ in absolute pixel coordinates
[03:52:22] <toastydeath> jmkasunich: suggestion
[03:52:27] <jmkasunich> makes a real pretty page - for one particular set of fonts and one screen width
[03:52:27] <toastydeath> use 800-900 pixel width
[03:52:31] <toastydeath> for the entire page
[03:52:35] <toastydeath> and pop some menus in
[03:52:39] <jmkasunich> fix it at that width?
[03:52:43] <toastydeath> fix the width
[03:52:47] <toastydeath> but allow the stuff inside to float
[03:53:06] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich looks up how to fix the page width
[03:53:09] <Jymm> toastydeath do you REALLY want to explain floats ?!?!?!
[03:53:25] <toastydeath> i usually have one vertical colum for a menu
[03:53:27] <toastydeath> *column
[03:53:35] <toastydeath> and then a bigger one for all the text and content crap
[03:53:41] <toastydeath> and a title/header that spans both
[03:53:50] <jmkasunich> in this case, what would go in the menu?
[03:54:02] <jmkasunich> there is at most one link
[03:54:04] <toastydeath> the first and second page, so far =(
[03:54:10] <toastydeath> there's not enough information there to really have a website
[03:54:16] <jmkasunich> I know
[03:54:20] <toastydeath> http://www.w3schools.com/
[03:54:25] <toastydeath> also, they will explain floats for me =)
[03:54:31] <Jymm> sure there is, dont need much
[03:54:31] <jmkasunich> it could probably all go on one page
[03:54:41] <jmkasunich> people are used to scrolling
[03:55:02] <toastydeath> it's not about scrolling or not
[03:55:06] <toastydeath> it's a psychological trick
[03:55:19] <jmkasunich> what is? the menus?
[03:55:26] <toastydeath> the illusion of a larger site
[03:55:29] <jmkasunich> oh
[03:55:41] <jmkasunich> I don't think thats an issue here
[03:55:42] <toastydeath> it, for whatever bloody reason, develops trust in the viewer
[03:55:53] <toastydeath> which is important, especially if you're actually selling something
[03:56:03] <jmkasunich> its obvious that this is a one-product site
[03:56:06] <toastydeath> yeah
[03:56:37] <jmkasunich> the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to put it all on one page
[03:56:37] <Jymm> jmkasunich do you want these two pages combined?
[03:57:00] <jmkasunich> thats where I think I'm going
[03:57:14] <Jymm> jmkasunich do you want me to do it for you?
[03:57:37] <jmkasunich> not unless you have a burning desire to do free web work for somebody you don't even know
[03:57:57] <Jymm> it's up to you, when do you need it by?
[03:58:12] <jmkasunich> before this weekend
[03:58:23] <jmkasunich> I'd really like to do it myself tho
[03:58:35] <jmkasunich> I'm very open to suggestions though
[03:59:05] <Jymm> okey dokey. I'd just use a table for the layout, css for the font/colors, and good ole html for the rest.
[03:59:44] <jmkasunich> CSS is basically just shorthand for <FONT size=3 color="red"> ?
[04:00:52] <Jymm> One column, three rows -----> <table><tr><td><h1>Header Goes Here</h1></td></tr><tr><td>main body of page</td></tr><tr><td>footer goes here</td></tr></table>
[04:01:11] <ds3> Hmmmmm
[04:01:17] <jmkasunich> I know tables (thats one of the few things I do know)
[04:01:30] <Jymm> One column, three rows -----> <table border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=2><tr><td><h1>Header Goes Here</h1></td></tr><tr><td>main body of page</td></tr><tr><td>footer goes here</td></tr></table>
[04:01:37] <Jymm> flip those
[04:02:25] <jmkasunich> I used a table already, for the heading and the bullet pic
[04:02:30] <Jymm> jmkasunich Yes, but instead of having a zillion <font> tgs, just one css tag
[04:02:48] <jmkasunich> ok, I might change to css after I read up on it
[04:02:58] <jmkasunich> I'm more interested in the layout issues at the moment
[04:04:13] <jmkasunich> want to keep the basic layout (images and text kind of zigzagging down the page
[04:04:28] <jmkasunich> but I'm gonna merge both pages, and put the ordering info at the bottom
[04:04:38] <ds3> please don't use CSS
[04:04:42] <ds3> CSS == the devil
[04:08:54] <toastydeath> lol how is css the devil
[04:13:03] <ds3> it is a tool used by ad pushers
[04:13:15] <ds3> CSS should be discouraged so any CSS will flag an ad pusher
[04:13:42] <toastydeath> uh
[04:13:56] <toastydeath> that's an interesting reason to supress a very flexible tool
[04:14:52] <ds3> it is a good reason
[04:14:57] <ds3> same reason why IFRAMES should never be used
[04:15:11] <ds3> damn pop overs needs to DIE
[04:15:44] <toastydeath> iframes are annoying
[04:15:53] <toastydeath> you can build an effective website that is easy to change with css
[04:16:39] <ds3> BAH
[04:16:58] <ds3> have it preprocessed through perl, etc and keep the original maintainable
[04:17:09] <ds3> what's more CSS's are great for breaking device independance
[04:17:26] <ds3> i.e. the wikipedia CSS royally blows up on the Treo
[04:17:35] <toastydeath> i don't think we'll be swaying the entire web design/development industry anytime soon
[04:17:49] <toastydeath> i'll certainly be using it anytime I build a webpage
[04:18:26] <ds3> and I will certainly be filtering it out of any page =)
[04:19:05] <toastydeath> then we have an accord!
[04:22:30] <Jymm> jmkasunich save as test.html http://pastebin.ca/424987
[04:24:57] <jmkasunich> done
[04:25:17] <jmkasunich> I guess I could just have two tall columns, and mix text and pics in each
[04:26:06] <jmkasunich> why is the right column wider than the left?
[04:26:21] <jmkasunich> (seems to hold true no matter how wide I make the window
[04:28:01] <toastydeath> unless you give it rules to set it
[04:28:10] <toastydeath> it will pick sizes based on what's inside the thingers
[04:28:28] <jmkasunich> I guess the picture biases it towards the right column then
[04:28:40] <jmkasunich> even when both columns are much wider than the pic
[04:29:45] <toastydeath> width="50%"
[04:29:49] <toastydeath> in the <td> element
[04:29:53] <toastydeath> the first time it appears
[04:29:56] <toastydeath> for that column.
[04:32:14] <Jymm> jmkasunich it's based upon the content of the cell.
[04:32:43] <Jymm> less text == less width =)
[04:33:09] <toastydeath> or you set the width element in the <tr> tag
[04:33:13] <toastydeath> to a percentage =(
[04:33:28] <toastydeath> er
[04:33:28] <toastydeath> td
[04:33:29] <toastydeath> <td>
[04:33:43] <Jymm> unless you do as was suggested
[04:33:53] <Jymm> toastydeath calm down, I'm getting there =)
[04:34:03] <toastydeath> * toastydeath hyperventilates
[04:34:32] <Jymm> * Jymm bags toastydeath.... now paper or plastic???
[04:34:54] <toastydeath> hahah.
[04:36:48] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[04:36:55] <ds3> PLASTIC!!!
[04:37:32] <jmkasunich> I just love Cleveland weather.... I just took the dog out. Yesterday we had shirtsleeve weather (70ish F), tonight there's 2" of snow on the ground
[04:39:01] <Jymm> jmkasunich: http://pastebin.ca/425000
[04:40:56] <jmkasunich> I see, thanks
[04:46:55] <Jymm> jmkasunich http://pastebin.ca/425008
[04:47:40] <jmkasunich> lines 5-15 are the stylesheet?
[04:48:55] <Jymm> Yeah, if you choose to use them.... just a lil css only doing font and colors
[04:49:04] <Jymm> oh and alignment
[04:49:56] <jmkasunich> since you named them after existing things (body, h3, p) they apply to those things, right? but I could also name them foo and bar?
[04:49:57] <Jymm> if yu want to see what it looks like w/o the css, just rename <style> to <sty> and it'll disable it
[04:50:28] <Jymm> jmkasunich If you have <div name="foo"></div> in your content, yes.
[04:50:43] <jmkasunich> ok
[04:51:32] <Jymm> body in the stylesheet applys to EVERYTHING between <body> and </body>, unless overwritten by another tag, such as <p></p>
[04:51:44] <jmkasunich> ok
[04:51:52] <jmkasunich> thats the "cascading" part, eh?
[04:52:08] <Jymm> yeah, pretty much =)
[04:55:47] <Jymm> If you want ideas.... http://www.oswd.org/
[04:56:23] <jmkasunich> I'm gonna try to keep the basic look that he already had
[04:56:27] <Jymm> that should give you an idea on what css can do, YMMV
[04:56:38] <jmkasunich> right
[04:57:03] <Jymm> CSS is nice, if you keep it basic (like not using it for layout)
[04:57:16] <jmkasunich> I can see that
[04:57:27] <Jymm> gets rid of those gawd awefule <font></font> tags all over the place
[04:59:09] <Jymm> jmkasunich Now, this is THE EXTREME of CSS ---> http://www.csszengarden.com/
[04:59:33] <jmkasunich> pretty
[04:59:46] <Jymm> jmkasunich The content on EVERY PAGE is the same, just different style sheets that people have submitted.
[04:59:58] <jmkasunich> you know, I think my blog uses CSS, and I've even tweaked it some, just didn't realize it at the time
[05:00:15] <Jymm> jmkasunich no no you need to look at zen garden again
[05:00:21] <Jymm> click th elicks on the right
[05:00:29] <jmkasunich> I see
[05:00:34] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich boggles
[05:04:34] <Jymm> jmkasunich anyhoo... Just thought I'd give you a small sample of CSS since you're working on html right now.
[05:05:05] <jmkasunich> thanks
[05:05:15] <jmkasunich> I've added styles to the file
[05:05:32] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/sb.html is the working copy, changes every few minutes
[05:06:08] <Jymm> get rid of this, looks like crap ---> LEFTMARGIN=0 TOPMARGIN=0 MARGINWIDTH=0 MARGINHEIGHT=0
[05:06:52] <jmkasunich> is there any way to say "render with a minimum width of X" (and side scroll if the window is narrower than X)
[05:07:09] <jmkasunich> (I'm trying with a table, but a width spec on the body seems more natural
[05:07:15] <Jymm> you WANT to scroll left and right?
[05:07:31] <jmkasunich> only if they have a narrow window - less than 700 pixels or so
[05:08:21] <jmkasunich> if they make the window 450 pix, and a picture is 300, that means the text is crammed into 150 pixels - you get one or two words per line and it looks awful
[05:08:42] <jmkasunich> if they make the window 1000, I want to use it all
[05:08:52] <jmkasunich> just scroll if its narrower than some minimum
[05:09:01] <Jymm> if they make the window 400, not your problem - really.
[05:09:22] <jmkasunich> I guess
[05:09:31] <jmkasunich> I can also worry about that later
[05:09:37] <jmkasunich> chop hack
[05:09:55] <Jymm> you gotta have working area even if they resize there window to 20x20
[05:10:13] <Jymm> I go a min of 800x600 usually, others go higher
[05:10:38] <Jymm> once in a while I go 640x480 as min depending on the site content
[05:10:47] <Jymm> but that' spushing it
[05:10:49] <Jymm> pushing
[05:11:32] <ds3> sigh
[05:11:52] <ds3> that is so annoying
[05:12:17] <toastydeath> it also depends on who the website is for
[05:12:21] <toastydeath> wait, you said that
[05:12:25] <toastydeath> great, i'm retarded
[05:12:41] <toastydeath> i would go for 640 wide on this website
[05:12:54] <toastydeath> because i don't think it's really geared toward a traditionally web-savvy demographic
[05:13:59] <ds3> designing for a specific screen size is just a bad idea; that's just declaring war on mobile people
[05:14:27] <toastydeath> you need to determine if you want your stuff to be well-designed for full screen
[05:14:38] <toastydeath> or if you need a compromise for mobile stuff
[05:14:57] <toastydeath> designing to a set width allows you to enforce good typesetting practices
[05:15:11] <toastydeath> and makes your stuff far easier to read
[05:15:50] <ds3> it should designed so people choose how they want it to look depending on their device, i.e, the browser should determine the actual formating
[05:16:03] <ds3> that way, it will work fine on any device, anywhere
[05:16:17] <toastydeath> and it makes it less readable
[05:16:41] <toastydeath> that's why professional web designers design to a set width most of the time
[05:16:48] <toastydeath> so they can enforce typesetting
[05:17:39] <ds3> guess we have philosphical differences there
[05:17:49] <toastydeath> i don't think this is a philosophical difference
[05:17:51] <ds3> a page can be device independant and completely readable
[05:18:27] <ds3> you seem to believe the page designer should know about the rendering device; I completely disagree. A page should be completely agnostic of the rendering device.
[05:18:51] <toastydeath> no, i'm saying the designer needs to pick a set of objectives
[05:19:18] <toastydeath> and very frequently, device independence is not a goal at all
[05:19:25] <ds3> I don't see there as being any valid objective other then device independance
[05:19:43] <toastydeath> erm
[05:19:54] <toastydeath> huh?
[05:20:04] <toastydeath> the only objective you can possibly have for a webpage is to have it viewable on any device?
[05:20:24] <ds3> yes, that is, IMO, the whole point of a web page.
[05:20:29] <ds3> if you want control, go with something like PDF
[05:20:37] <toastydeath> erm
[05:20:46] <jmkasunich> Jymm: can you tell me why my "st1" style isn't being applied to the "Ask about our temporary...." line?
[05:21:04] <toastydeath> things like keeping people on the webpage, developing trust, and ease of readership take a lot more prescidence
[05:21:15] <toastydeath> than the minority of people trying to read it on a mobile device
[05:21:50] <toastydeath> for most designers, anyway.
[05:21:53] <ds3> proper content is more important for developing trust
[05:21:55] <jmkasunich> I gotta disagree there - HTML is intended to be portable - if you want a fixed look, use pdf
[05:22:15] <toastydeath> that's kind of silly
[05:22:15] <ds3> mobile device and the minority issue is a chicken and egg problem
[05:22:19] <toastydeath> pdf is incredibly inconvinient
[05:22:22] <Jymm> jmkasunich when I said "sty" that BREAKS the <style></style> paired tags, then the browser ignores that part.
[05:22:26] <ds3> designers are doing there best to complete screw over mobile users
[05:22:37] <jmkasunich> st1 is a style name
[05:22:39] <ds3> so there aren't that many
[05:22:41] <toastydeath> designers are doing their best to be the most appealing possible to the largest demographic
[05:22:50] <Jymm> jmkasunich same url?
[05:23:01] <jmkasunich> yes
[05:23:02] <ds3> take bestbuy.com for example.... it is completely unusable on a portable device
[05:23:09] <Jymm> jmkasunich btw ty for removeing the margin tags =)
[05:23:14] <toastydeath> and they don't care if it's usable on a portable device
[05:23:32] <toastydeath> because the vast majority of their users are not on portable devices
[05:23:56] <ds3> and that's fine with me... I goto their competitor's site to do a search for stores near me since they are not willing to help me find their stores
[05:24:02] <toastydeath> and that's fine
[05:24:10] <toastydeath> because they make more money by excluding you
[05:24:51] <toastydeath> a fundimental tenet of good business - exclude the people who would cost you more money to attract than you make by attracting them
[05:25:04] <ds3> if you want to believe that so be it ;) seeing how they are being sued for playing games with their web site
[05:25:30] <toastydeath> best buy is one site out of many
[05:25:35] <toastydeath> that follow that principle
[05:25:58] <ds3> on the other end of the scale, there is amazon
[05:26:09] <ds3> actually trying to help make their content more accessible
[05:26:11] <toastydeath> don't they have a seperate webpage for portable devices?
[05:26:23] <toastydeath> that's what I would do, if I wanted to support portability
[05:26:40] <ds3> bestbuy does not; amazon has a seperate web page but their normal one works okay; just loads a bit slower due to more graphics
[05:27:28] <toastydeath> yeah
[05:29:51] <ds3> and that has proven itself to be quite useful for price comparisms in another store
[05:30:19] <toastydeath> i don't doubt that you find tremendous use in that
[05:31:08] <ds3> beyond all this there is also a debate (think there are law suits in progress) on the legality of such pages
[05:31:27] <toastydeath> there are lawsuits regarding accessability
[05:31:32] <toastydeath> for large corporations subject to such laws
[05:31:39] <ds3> yep
[05:32:37] <toastydeath> but a small web business with only one person, or a couple employees
[05:32:40] <toastydeath> are excempt from those laws
[05:33:16] <toastydeath> that is a side note, more than anything else
[05:33:26] <ds3> *nod*
[05:36:19] <toastydeath> and to be more fair, typesetting is only real important on webpages where the text is of heavy importance
[05:36:23] <toastydeath> blogs, etc
[05:49:43] <Jymm> bbiab foodage
[07:27:24] <jmkasunich> well, I declare it done: http://jmkasunich.dyndns.org/pics/sb.html
[07:33:18] <alex_joni> go to bed :P
[07:34:40] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: looks a tiny bit odd on my widescreen display, but for regular people it's way better than before
[07:34:58] <alex_joni> and btw, the old one looked terrible to me too (~128dpi here)
[07:35:25] <Jymm> jmkasunich s/temporary/limited time/
[07:36:42] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: yeah, if you stretch it really wide it gets kinda bad
[07:37:33] <jmkasunich> but his target market is ordinary people, not computer jockies - they'll have lower res screens
[07:38:17] <jmkasunich> Jymm: I agree, but I don't want to change his words - I only fixed the formatting
[07:38:31] <Jymm> k
[07:39:10] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: 1680 wide here..
[07:39:52] <alex_joni> it's an odd product...
[07:39:56] <jmkasunich> it would be nice to be able to tell it "render this page no more than 1024 pixels wide, if the screen is wider, put white stripes down the sides
[07:40:25] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: yes, it is - but apparently my brother has sold a few hundred
[07:40:28] <alex_joni> you can do that with css... but you don't want to go there
[07:40:36] <alex_joni> good for him
[07:43:52] <Jymm> jmkasunich: If you left the table I created for you originally, you could of done that.
[07:44:23] <jmkasunich> tables have a width, not a min or max width (I think?)
[07:44:40] <Jymm> Width="1024"
[07:45:01] <jmkasunich> understood - but that means its _always_ 1024
[07:45:12] <alex_joni> not if you rescale it smaller
[07:45:14] <jmkasunich> if they are viewing on a narrower screen they need to side-scroll
[07:45:28] <alex_joni> nope, browsers try to be "intelligent"
[07:45:34] <jmkasunich> oh
[07:45:34] <alex_joni> at least most of them..
[07:45:54] <jmkasunich> well, its rediculously late here - I'm not gonna mess with it any more tonight
[07:46:03] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: agreed..
[07:46:16] <alex_joni> you could however reply to Fengli
[07:46:25] <alex_joni> * alex_joni hides
[07:46:30] <jmkasunich> I did that once already
[07:46:33] <jmkasunich> your turn
[07:46:46] <alex_joni> ouch :D
[07:48:30] <alex_joni> I like the way he used about 3 different fontsizes in that email :D
[07:54:53] <jmkasunich> goodnight all
[07:55:00] <jmkasunich> thanks everyone for the HTML help
[10:06:11] <Rugludallur> morning
[10:18:17] <anonimasu> hi
[11:27:50] <alex_joni> hi
[11:30:51] <anonimasu> what
[11:30:52] <anonimasu> 's
[11:30:53] <anonimasu> up?
[11:34:59] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: up is a vector which can be defined as originating from the center of the earth and intersecting the observers referrence point on the earths crust
[11:37:04] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: Well, I dont give a shit about vectors..
[11:37:07] <anonimasu> :D
[11:37:19] <anonimasu> what's up with you?
[11:37:19] <anonimasu> where's your vector pointing?
[11:37:44] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: I finally have some time for the plasma stuff, easter vacation started today :D
[11:37:52] <anonimasu> ince
[11:37:54] <anonimasu> mine
[11:37:58] <anonimasu> 's supposed to start now
[11:38:09] <anonimasu> but I guess I have a few hours of work..
[11:38:30] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: how's the table working out ?
[11:38:47] <alex_joni> http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap070401.html hahahahaha
[11:39:04] <anonimasu> nicely
[11:39:18] <anonimasu> though we need to replace the bents with a screw..
[11:39:21] <anonimasu> they flex too much..
[11:39:42] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: it's not a problem, but for everything to be perfect
[11:39:45] <Rugludallur> alex_joni: I think NASA people have to much spare time
[11:40:02] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: how long are the belts ?
[11:40:20] <anonimasu> about 2m..
[11:40:27] <anonimasu> 2.5 I think..
[11:40:33] <anonimasu> err rail length..
[11:40:34] <anonimasu> ;)
[11:40:42] <anonimasu> the belt length is double..
[11:40:49] <anonimasu> 4m or something
[11:40:49] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: ahh, well you could also look at using kevlar polyurethane belts
[11:41:02] <anonimasu> hm, yeah, maybe..
[11:41:13] <anonimasu> acme threaded screws are cheap
[11:41:14] <anonimasu> :)
[11:41:19] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: true :D
[11:41:29] <anonimasu> and with a homebrew anti backslash nut..
[11:41:29] <anonimasu> ;)
[11:42:12] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: I have a couple of kensington lab stages here, they are mostly used for cpu wafer work and such, they have a really wierd split plastic screw for anti-backlash
[11:42:30] <anonimasu> got a picture?
[11:42:39] <Rugludallur> anonimasu:hmm I might have one , just a sec
[11:42:41] <anonimasu> you made me really curious
[11:44:51] <Rugludallur> http://dallur.com/fileadmin/user_upload/100_4761.jpg
[11:44:56] <Rugludallur> that's a picture of a broken one
[11:45:02] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: I have been looking for replacements
[11:45:39] <Rugludallur> http://dallur.com/fileadmin/user_upload/100_4767.jpg
[11:54:29] <anonimasu> fancy
[11:54:53] <anonimasu> well, I guess thoose wouldnt be impossible to make..
[11:55:00] <anonimasu> with a cnc lathe.. ;)
[11:55:05] <anonimasu> and a mill..
[11:55:10] <anonimasu> and a edm machine, for the mold..
[11:56:20] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: lol :D
[12:00:07] <anonimasu> seriously you can probably turn one on a lathe..
[12:00:16] <anonimasu> then split it with a saw..
[12:00:23] <anonimasu> drill holes and then split it..
[12:00:38] <anonimasu> I've seen thoose before..
[12:12:16] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: It would be possible, but I only have a manual lathe and getting those internal threads right would be quite hard
[12:12:40] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: it's not as hard as you think
[12:12:44] <anonimasu> not nearly
[12:13:16] <anonimasu> I turned lots of threads for my spindle by manual..
[12:13:38] <anonimasu> it just takes quite a bit of work to get the dimensions all right..
[12:14:16] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: I might try it when/if I have use for those stages
[12:15:16] <anonimasu> :)
[12:44:05] <alex_joni> http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_4.htm
[12:50:58] <skunkworks> I had heard a little about that
[12:52:16] <skunkworks> alex_joni: 24usd at the local store - works pretty good considering :) http://youtube.com/watch?v=XjG2gZFRXSs
[12:55:47] <alex_joni> cool.. I want one too :P
[12:56:43] <skunkworks> might have to buy another one just in case ;) it has a li-po battery in it and is charged by the controller.
[13:54:30] <jackc> jackc is now known as crepincdotcom`
[16:17:39] <maddash> is EMCIO realtime or not?
[16:17:53] <maddash> cause of my confusion: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMCTask
[16:20:42] <tomp> good question. i dont have the exact answer, only an impression that data gathering >is not< realtime, and execution of position control >is< realtime.
[17:45:37] <lerman_> lerman_ is now known as lerman
[17:50:36] <Rugludallur> Anyone have any nifty ideas on how to implement a time delay on for a mux in hal ?
[17:54:31] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: calculate primes..
[17:57:15] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: lol
[17:57:34] <tomp> keep what ever logic you have, but OR the output with a new component that is a comparator fed by a stepgen like pulse stream, and given a threshold. th eout put is only valid after n counts
[17:57:47] <tomp> ( delay by n counts)
[17:57:58] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: I don't want to halt execution, I want to do something in a certain time
[17:58:13] <Rugludallur> tomp: hmm then the time would depend on the period of the thead right ?
[17:58:35] <tomp> yep ( all just thoughts )
[17:58:34] <Rugludallur> tomp: well if there is a threshhold that would make it work all right
[17:58:56] <tomp> comparator has threshold
[17:59:03] <Rugludallur> tomp: If I can make a count down timer I can throw away the classicladder stuff I have for the plasma config
[17:59:18] <Rugludallur> tomp: I can also use a freqgen and set a max
[17:59:45] <tomp> nice, i'd work on a bit of it with you, but dont know which bit
[18:00:08] <Rugludallur> tomp: let me upload a snapshot of the current design
[18:00:12] <tomp> great
[18:02:28] <Rugludallur> http://imagebin.org/7991
[18:03:01] <Rugludallur> tomp: bahh it was cut a bit short, i'll re-export
[18:10:04] <Rugludallur> tomp: http://imagebin.org/7993
[18:10:36] <tomp> wow!
[18:11:02] <tomp> what did you use for the graph?
[18:11:28] <Rugludallur> tomp: Openoffice Draw
[18:11:34] <tomp> very nice
[18:12:00] <Rugludallur> tomp: It's come a long way, now it's getting better than Visio and it's ages ahead of Dia
[18:12:34] <tomp> it'll take me a while to understand it fer sure. i was redrawing your old stuff, you saved me a lot of time with this :)
[18:13:23] <Rugludallur> tomp: This is quite a bit different from the old stuff, simplified and replaced most of the classicladder stuff with hal
[18:14:15] <tomp> Rugludallur: yep, you been busy
[18:14:37] <Rugludallur> tomp: to bad I don't have more time, should have finished this 3 weeks ago but work keeps getting in my way
[18:14:39] <Rugludallur> tomp :D
[18:16:03] <tomp> i was just packing all your old files onto a cf chip for a session with a laptop, just to look at your stuff. might you post the oo draw file sometime?
[18:17:57] <Rugludallur> sure, I will post everything when ready but if you want I can upload right now
[18:19:03] <tomp> Rugludallur: yes, please, just the source for that image you pastbin'd.
[18:19:37] <Rugludallur> http://dallur.com/fileadmin/user_upload/NewPlasmaDesign.odg
[18:20:12] <tomp> got it. thank you
[18:20:46] <Rugludallur> no prob
[18:22:18] <tomp> opens fine :)
[18:33:07] <tomp> it's even nicer than i first thought. you spent a lot of time on this. I think your monitor might be a bit larger than my 1280x1024 17" diagonal lcd ;)
[18:34:48] <tomp> heck, when i saved it to the desktop, the icon is even a transparent mini-image , cool
[18:35:39] <tomp> (sorry that was an svg dup i made) :-[
[18:36:56] <rcsu> hi *
[18:37:01] <tomp> stop that noise!
[18:37:26] <tomp> yes that one!
[18:37:28] <rcsu> tomp: i hope you dont mean me ;)
[18:37:41] <tomp> no, erDiZz
[18:37:45] <erDiZz> wha? :)
[18:38:08] <erDiZz> * erDiZz was just messing with IRC client, over now
[18:38:11] <tomp> you make a noise when you enter ytou make a noise when you leave, then you you come in out in ouit in ouit ;)
[18:40:49] <erDiZz> erDiZz is now known as erdizz
[18:41:44] <tomp> erdizz, no problem, i just keep my volume way up so the system can read the emails to me when i am away
[18:42:41] <erdizz> tomp, no, there _is the problem_, don't try to decoy :)
[18:43:35] <tomp> Rugludallur: i'm packing your file up and headed for the forrest, thanks
[18:46:34] <tomp> Rugludallur: if your technique works ( feeding present position back into correct position and using non-emc position commands), then you've solved a lot of whats needed for a 'rack' type tool changer :)
[18:48:38] <Rugludallur> tomp: that part works fine :D
[18:48:48] <Rugludallur> tomp: have a good journey
[19:26:54] <Rugludallur> I'm thinking about creating a new hal component, a "mux2" which switches based on a timer. Any thoughts or suggestions ?
[19:27:34] <cradek> since we already have a mux2, I think you should make the simplest block (timer only) instead
[19:28:40] <Rugludallur> cradek: makes sense, just a float input time and bit out 0/1 ?
[19:30:16] <cradek> yeah, input time, reset or enable input, output?
[19:30:46] <cradek> output goes high [time] after enable goes high
[19:32:30] <cradek> time would be rounded (floor? ceil?) to a multiple of periods
[19:32:55] <Rugludallur> cradek: input time (float), input, output makes sense
[19:33:03] <cradek> if you had [time] in periods instead, the block would not require fp
[19:33:18] <Rugludallur> cradek: hmm that would save cpu
[19:33:25] <cradek> but I think most of hal is moving toward using times, and round/floor/ceil to periods
[19:34:14] <cradek> would time time be a pin or param?
[19:34:38] <cradek> if it's a pin, you have to think about all the ways it can change while the timer is already running
[19:34:39] <Rugludallur> cradek: I have not thought it through
[19:34:46] <cradek> yeah me either :-)
[19:34:56] <cradek> just brainstorming
[19:35:17] <Rugludallur> cradek: I just started looking at implementing a timer with freqgen and counter and it's just to ugly
[19:35:39] <cradek> yeah that seems unnecessarily evil
[19:36:41] <cradek> oh hey did you see oneshot?
[19:37:37] <Rugludallur> cradek: I have not looked at it no
[19:37:45] <cradek> I bet it does what you want
[19:38:25] <Rugludallur> cradek: hmm im reading the html doc as we speak
[19:42:42] <Rugludallur> cradek: oneshot does everything I need and more, thanks :D
[19:42:48] <cradek> yay
[19:42:58] <Rugludallur> cradek: the doc is a bit cryptic at first though
[19:43:34] <cradek> Rugludallur: patches gratefully accepted!
[19:43:43] <cradek> hi jmk
[19:43:45] <Rugludallur> cradek :D
[19:43:52] <jmk2> Rugludallur: regarding a delay...
[19:44:12] <jmk2> there are some components that could be used already
[19:44:12] <Rugludallur> jmk2: yup
[19:44:26] <jmk2> debounce
[19:44:28] <Rugludallur> jmk2: cradek just pointed me towards oneshot, which seems to be able to do everything I need
[19:44:35] <jmk2> integ + comparator
[19:44:41] <jmk2> oneshot ;-)
[19:46:12] <maddash> is there some doc that lays out the architecture of emc?
[19:46:22] <ejholmgren> http://www.jcrocket.com/nike-asp.shtml
[19:46:33] <ejholmgren> that is one huge f'ing model rocket
[19:46:49] <jmk2> maddash - not really all in one place and easy to follow
[19:47:23] <ejholmgren> cradek around?
[19:47:24] <jmk2> there is http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/EMC_Docs/EMC_Home.htm
[19:47:32] <jmk2> which is somewhat out of date.....
[19:48:35] <ejholmgren> * ejholmgren hollers, "Oooohhhh craaaaaaadek ...."
[19:48:50] <maddash> jmk2: it's not so easy to follow
[19:49:04] <jmk2> I never said it was :-)
[19:49:12] <maddash> jmk2: not when there's documentation that contradicts itsef
[19:49:16] <maddash> 15:46:46 <jmk2> maddash - not really all in one place and easy to follo
[19:49:25] <maddash> eg http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMCTask
[19:50:14] <maddash> is emcmot realtime or not?
[19:50:51] <jmk2> emcmot is the old name of the motion controller
[19:50:59] <jmk2> now called motmod, and yes, its realtime
[19:51:32] <jmk2> src/emc/motion is the main source for motmod, plus code that is pulled in from src/emc/kinematics
[19:51:36] <maddash> "In the four modules of EMC, only EMCMOT is a realtime module. The other three,i.e. EMCTask,EMCMOT and GUI, are non-realtime modules."
[19:51:39] <maddash> wtf?
[19:51:58] <cradek> that's not great writing, is it
[19:52:01] <jmk2> probably a typo
[19:52:06] <maddash> what about emcio?
[19:52:21] <jmk2> I think the second mention of emcmot was supposed to be emcio
[19:52:28] <maddash> jmk2: http://home.att.net/~jmkasunich/EMC_Docs/EMC_Control_LG.gif <--- how outdated is that?
[19:52:41] <jmk2> there are dates on the first page
[19:52:46] <jmk2> 2003
[19:53:10] <maddash> so how different is that from 2.1?
[19:53:45] <jmk2> well, 2003 had no HAL at all
[19:53:58] <maddash> hm, seems like it neglects emcsh, which bypasses the emctask system
[19:54:10] <jmk2> emcio is now called iocontrol, spindle stuff is in motion now, not iocontrol
[19:54:28] <jmk2> emcsh doesn't bypass task
[19:54:42] <jmk2> its the interface between task an the tcl guis
[19:55:20] <jmk2> (think of the box labeled GUI as being split in half. the bottom half is C (or C++) and talks NML to task
[19:55:32] <jmk2> the top half is tkemc or mini - Tcl code, and talks to the bottom half
[19:56:03] <lerneaen_hydra> ejholmgren: that sure is one big ass rocket!
[20:05:22] <ejholmgren> yeah
[20:05:29] <ejholmgren> once they're more than 6' ...
[20:05:39] <ejholmgren> it's hard to call it a "model" anymore
[20:05:57] <toastydeath> that's what she sais
[20:05:59] <toastydeath> *said
[20:06:26] <ejholmgren> O_o
[20:07:02] <maddash> tell me if i got this right: emcsvr is first launched to initialize the appropriate RCS channels through which the NML msgs will flow. the GUIs (inside emc2/src/emc/usr_intf) take their commands from the user, and send the appropriate NML messages. emctaskmain receives these messages, and interacts accordingly with motmod.
[20:07:26] <jmk2> thats it I think
[20:07:40] <jmk2> (my real area of expertise is motmod and below)
[20:15:12] <lerneaen_hydra> jmk2: who are you? jmk's clone? or backup perhaps? :p
[20:18:29] <jmk2> clone
[20:19:04] <jmk2> the real jmk is at work
[20:20:05] <cradek> which one of you watches the irc logs for something interesting to happen?
[20:20:36] <jmk2> "watch" isn't quite the word
[20:20:45] <Rugludallur> cradek: I think they have an AI for that
[20:20:51] <alex_joni> hi guys
[20:21:03] <toastydeath> "piped into a terminal running cat" is the correct word
[20:22:45] <alex_joni> cradek: I usually watch for highlighting stuff
[20:23:05] <jmk2> I happpened to look at the web based log....
[20:29:35] <jmk2> jmk2 is now known as jmk-original
[20:29:51] <jmk-original> damn clone.... I told him to stay off the internet!
[20:30:22] <lerneaen_hydra> omg! the clone was posing as the original jmk!
[20:30:31] <lerneaen_hydra> "jmk2 is now known as jmk-original"
[20:39:14] <ejholmgren> cradek: when you got sim running on ppc, was that in linux?
[20:39:35] <cradek> yes
[20:40:04] <cradek> just build cvs trunk. I committed the changes
[20:40:21] <maddash> how do i purge all traces of mist coolant from emc?
[20:40:23] <ejholmgren> what test system were you running it on?
[20:40:37] <cradek> a 300 MHz iBook ca 1999
[20:40:53] <cradek> maddash: if you use AXIS the checkbutton disappears if you don't hook mist to anything in HAL
[20:43:04] <ejholmgren> g3?
[20:43:17] <cradek> yes I think so
[20:43:21] <ejholmgren> ouch ;)
[20:43:33] <cradek> it actually runs pretty nice
[20:43:39] <ejholmgren> which wm
[20:43:45] <cradek> icewm
[20:43:48] <ejholmgren> ah
[20:44:04] <ejholmgren> I was running debian on one of my g4's for a while
[20:44:18] <ejholmgren> but both kde and gnome were slow as balls
[20:44:50] <ejholmgren> both of the g4's are sitting in the basement w/o hds and ram now
[20:45:10] <cradek> are those laptops? (I don't know squat about macs)
[20:45:16] <ejholmgren> towers
[20:45:27] <ejholmgren> g4 sawtooths, 400mhz
[20:45:40] <ejholmgren> decent systems
[20:45:42] <cradek> ah
[20:45:57] <ejholmgren> but work was throwing away an 800mhz quicksilver g4 ...
[20:46:12] <ejholmgren> for some ungodly reason, so I'm usin that now
[20:47:16] <ejholmgren> although ... I suppose if you can afford to subsidize your software with hardware prices
[20:47:57] <ejholmgren> it's easy to pay the devs mucho moolah to make sure that your prop wm runs smoother than anything on comparable hardware
[20:48:05] <ejholmgren> damn apple
[20:49:03] <cradek> I was impressed by how responsive X is on that iBook
[20:49:22] <cradek> I didn't want gnome because it probably doesn't have the ram to run it comfortably
[20:49:23] <cradek> (128 I think)
[20:49:33] <cradek> but for traditional X, that's perfectly fine
[20:50:02] <cradek> suspend, both network interfaces (wireless & wired), etc - everything works great on it
[20:50:09] <cradek> better than I can say about my intel laptop
[20:50:19] <ejholmgren> the ppc's def have nuts for the clock speeds they run at
[20:50:32] <ejholmgren> good harware too, not half assed
[20:51:37] <ejholmgren> * ejholmgren weeps
[20:51:47] <ejholmgren> I miss my sun ultra 2
[21:21:21] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: the same algorithm should take the same time under the same load ;)
[21:28:47] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: huh ?
[21:29:16] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: you asked for a delay..
[21:29:27] <anonimasu> how would calculating a prime yeild a locked up system?
[21:29:47] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: just put a cap on memory usage and kill it off when your delay's big enough ;)
[21:29:54] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: ahh my point was that I did not want to waste cpu cycles, I wanted to delay an action and do other things while it was waiting
[21:30:05] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: after all you asked for a nifty idea..
[21:30:16] <anonimasu> how is calculating a prime a waste of cpu cycles :/
[21:30:18] <anonimasu> *cry*
[21:30:37] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: Why dont you use a GXX p5 for delays?
[21:30:55] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: I were just kidding you asked for something nifty ;)
[21:31:28] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: :) This is actually for the pierce delay, so you can adjust how long you want to wait before starting a cut after the torch is turned on
[21:31:42] <anonimasu> I use PXX for pierce delay..
[21:31:45] <anonimasu> the delay gcode..
[21:32:06] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: I prefer to leave such things out of the gcode
[21:32:11] <anonimasu> err gXX p
[21:32:29] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: well, you are free to complicate things..
[21:32:30] <anonimasu> :)
[21:32:59] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: It can always be turned off if the delay is already in the gcode
[21:33:56] <anonimasu> how do you know when to pierce?
[21:34:13] <anonimasu> or are you assigning a macro with a GXX for piercing?
[21:35:39] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: spindle-forward is the "torch on"
[21:35:53] <anonimasu> oh ok..
[21:35:58] <anonimasu> you could make a pierce macro..
[21:36:19] <anonimasu> there's macro functionality in the interpreter(somewhere)
[21:36:24] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: when spindle-forward is set to 1, I automatically start a probe sequence to find the plate, set the pierce height and implement the delay
[21:37:12] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: There are a couple of advantages to doing it this way, for example the pierce delay only starts counting after the ArcOK signal is received, and if the arc refuses to strike I trigger an estop
[21:38:55] <anonimasu> I dont see why you cant do that in a macro either.
[21:39:10] <anonimasu> _if_ there was functionality to read hal pins ;)
[21:40:42] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: sorry, im just _pondering_
[21:40:45] <anonimasu> :)
[21:41:04] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: integrator wise that's a easier solution to implement for other kinds of things
[21:42:16] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: what I'm looking for is the most automated solution :D
[21:42:28] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: well, that would be as automated..
[21:42:29] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: and I also want to have the option of manually cutting with the THC
[21:42:43] <anonimasu> that can still be acomplished with that kind of setup..
[21:45:05] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: I don't know why but I just feel like THC should be handled transparently
[21:45:15] <anonimasu> Rugludallur: That is transparently.
[21:45:40] <anonimasu> the only thing is that you dont stick the pierce stuff as a big blob in hal..
[21:45:39] <anonimasu> :D
[21:45:47] <anonimasu> all of it atleast ;)
[21:46:09] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: I would actually think that running it in hal would be the most efficent way to do it
[21:46:42] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: since it has to be realtime
[21:47:20] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: but I might be wrong on that
[21:48:01] <anonimasu> I may be also :)
[21:48:13] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: did you see the diagram btw ?
[21:48:22] <anonimasu> no I missed it
[21:48:27] <anonimasu> I'm not too hal sawwy..
[21:48:49] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: http://imagebin.org/7993
[21:49:17] <anonimasu> nice
[21:49:31] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: Some/Most of it would have to be in hal in any case, like the Corner Height Lock
[21:49:42] <anonimasu> yeah
[21:49:43] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: it's still work in progress though
[22:16:10] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: Final draft -> http://imagebin.org/8006
[22:22:58] <anonimasu> looks nice
[22:23:22] <Rugludallur> anonimasu: Tomorrow I plan to get it all into config, and then it's testing and debugging over the weekend
[22:47:08] <anonimasu> ok
[22:51:59] <robin_sz> meep?
[22:52:50] <SWPLinux> Rugludallur: what did you use to generate those diagrams?
[23:02:45] <eric_u> graphviz?
[23:03:37] <SWPLinux> it looks too clean for graphviz ;) (IMO)
[23:03:48] <eric_u> does look nice
[23:04:36] <SWPLinux> petev pointed out something obvious: why not make geda schematic symbols, and a halcmd-like parser for geda netlist files?
[23:04:38] <SWPLinux> duh!
[23:04:46] <eric_u> i dunno, looks like something you could do with graphviz
[23:05:38] <SWPLinux> I'm not sure that you can stick other text (like the "17.5 Khz" comment) and the other boxes (like "INI file") wherever you want
[23:05:59] <SWPLinux> it may be possible, but I don't know if it's reasonably easy
[23:07:26] <eric_u> tomp pointed me at a tutorial where they showed how to do that just the other day
[23:08:16] <ds3> wheeeee
[23:08:19] <ds3> that was fun
[23:08:38] <eric_u> the idea behind the tutorial is what you do if you hate powerpoint, and want to use a dot program instead
[23:09:16] <eric_u> and I'm thinking to myself that eating glass is easier
[23:09:50] <SWPLinux> heh
[23:10:01] <SWPLinux> easierthan a dot program or easier than PowerPoint?
[23:10:16] <eric_u> dot
[23:10:21] <SWPLinux> heh^2
[23:10:30] <eric_u> powerpoint is evil, but not that hard
[23:10:54] <SWPLinux> I guess it depends on whether you want to do something nearly identical to an included template or not
[23:11:00] <eric_u> although, making things line up is impossible in pp
[23:11:18] <eric_u> different problem domains
[23:15:25] <eric_u> I swear I had geda on this system, but I must be wrong
[23:15:50] <eric_u> my drawing skills are wretched, I need a cad program
[23:16:38] <renesis> is hot swapping monitors bad?
[23:16:42] <renesis> this one is pissing me off
[23:16:48] <cradek> no
[23:16:59] <renesis> ok ty, ima go do it
[23:18:43] <renesis> heh
[23:18:45] <renesis> yeah fuck this monitor
[23:18:54] <renesis> unplug it and the LED still glow
[23:27:56] <renesis> omg new monitor too
[23:28:09] <renesis> theyre like stuck in power save mode
[23:28:26] <toastydeath> ?
[23:30:23] <renesis> stupid old 15" crts
[23:31:05] <renesis> works when i reboot
[23:31:13] <CIA-19> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/Makefile: revert unintended change, fix 'suspicious line 452' reported by emacs
[23:31:26] <cradek> heh do old crts come that small? :-)
[23:31:51] <renesis> im using the two old 17" for my workstation dual setup
[23:32:08] <renesis> all i have left is two 15", i dunno where i got them
[23:32:21] <renesis> shit
[23:32:33] <cradek> it's amazing how many nice CRTs are around - people are throwing out perfectly good ones and buying LCDs for no reason
[23:32:43] <renesis> is ubuntu i think
[23:33:11] <renesis> maybe bad scan/sync lines in xorg.conf
[23:33:23] <renesis> stupid old no name with no docs crt
[23:33:22] <cradek> yeah that'll freak them out
[23:33:34] <renesis> worked before tho
[23:33:37] <SWPLinux> did you have a 17" plugged in before?
[23:33:38] <cradek> does it do EDID? that's usually reliable
[23:33:40] <renesis> no
[23:33:46] <renesis> is two 15"
[23:33:52] <renesis> the other one would turn on sometimes
[23:34:00] <renesis> you have to time the button right (wtf)
[23:34:19] <SWPLinux> ok, so it works sometimes with this specific monitor (or at least this monitor type)?
[23:34:33] <renesis> worked fine for a week
[23:34:55] <renesis> restarted x few times too, cuz messing with window managers, same x config tho
[23:34:58] <SWPLinux> try plugging in one of the 17" monitors, then set the desktop resolution / refresh down, and plug in a 15" again
[23:34:59] <alex_joni> good night all
[23:35:02] <SWPLinux> night Ales
[23:35:04] <SWPLinux> x
[23:35:15] <renesis> omg nooo, im not taking apart my workstation
[23:35:49] <SWPLinux> then try ctrl-alt-minus while the monitor is plugged in
[23:35:54] <renesis> ill put a livecd in and mount the drives to edit xorg.conf before i start crawling around
[23:36:01] <anonimasu> cradek: I find the glare with crt's distorbing..
[23:36:02] <SWPLinux> that may go to a lower refresh/resolution
[23:36:07] <anonimasu> disturbing..
[23:36:12] <renesis> itll just restart gdm
[23:36:21] <cradek> C-A-F1 will give you a text console
[23:36:29] <SWPLinux> restarting GDM doesn't change the resolution
[23:36:43] <renesis> ok cool my vga terms work
[23:36:45] <SWPLinux> that's true too, then you can look at the xorg.0.log file
[23:36:50] <ds3> or use xvidtune
[23:36:51] <renesis> who said it does?
[23:37:00] <renesis> thats what ctrl+alt_bksp will do
[23:37:04] <renesis> your suggestion =)
[23:37:05] <SWPLinux> which is especially helpful if you've restarted X
[23:37:23] <SWPLinux> I suggested CTRL-ALT-minus, not backspace
[23:37:47] <ds3> and make sure the minus is on the keypad
[23:37:51] <SWPLinux> yep
[23:38:02] <SWPLinux> ds3: did you get to the show today?
[23:38:22] <ds3> SWPLinux: yep, got back a few hrs ago
[23:38:37] <SWPLinux> I was walking through the front lobby-ish area and noticed Luminary Micro - did you see their ARM microcontrollers?
[23:39:03] <ds3> yes, but I don't see anything exceptional about them
[23:39:04] <eric_u> at work, I'm sending a 22" 21" and a 19" crt to salvage
[23:39:15] <renesis> heheh, zoom view
[23:39:39] <ds3> the ADI ARMs are quite nice
[23:39:50] <SWPLinux> ~$1 parts that have motor control PWM outputs and encoder inputs, and are full 32-bit ARM chips with built-in flash/SRAM
[23:39:54] <ds3> even got a few of their eval boards just for sitting in the talks
[23:39:54] <eric_u> isn't luminary the one that does native motor control?
[23:40:00] <SWPLinux> yes
[23:40:06] <eric_u> oops I'm slow
[23:40:20] <eric_u> I like the ADI ones too, but they have dsp motor control
[23:40:30] <SWPLinux> they're $5-10 in digikey/mouser quantities, but at 1k+, they're in the $1 range
[23:40:32] <eric_u> they probably don't want to cannibalize that with their arms
[23:40:37] <renesis> what do you mean by encoder inputs?
[23:40:39] <ds3> what makes it the PWM unique to motors?
[23:40:50] <renesis> its got an encoder input peripheral?
[23:40:52] <SWPLinux> built-in quadrature counter inputs
[23:40:54] <SWPLinux> yes
[23:40:57] <renesis> thats neat
[23:41:07] <ds3> actually, the AVR32 looks quite neat... a version runs full linux
[23:41:14] <SWPLinux> ds3: if you want to drive an H-bridge, you need synchronized PWM with dead-time
[23:41:22] <renesis> ds3: is there more than one chip yet?
[23:41:23] <SWPLinux> or at least it's easier if the PWM has that
[23:41:28] <ds3> Ah
[23:41:37] <renesis> i havent even looked at the avr32 docs yet
[23:41:43] <SWPLinux> when you have 3-phase, it's good to have 6 wynchronized PWMs, with phase offsetting and deadtime ...
[23:41:50] <ds3> renesis: Think they claim 2 right now that will do full Linux and another handful that will do uClinux
[23:41:51] <CIA-19> 03cradek 07TRUNK * 10emc2/src/CodingStyle: most of this file is not useful, but fix some gratuitous problems anyway
[23:41:56] <eric_u> I don't know if an avr32 is that great of an idea
[23:41:57] <SWPLinux> the AVR32 is very cool. I have the STK1000 at home
[23:42:09] <renesis> oh its got synced multiple phase output pwm, probably
[23:42:36] <SWPLinux> they have a 3-phase induction motor drive design kit (and reference design), which even comes with a motor ...
[23:42:44] <ds3> their $69 something7 eval board looks very nice; dual ether, USB (slave only) + LCD in a PC104 like size
[23:42:48] <eric_u> for which chip?
[23:42:50] <SWPLinux> like a 1/2 HP motor, from the look of it
[23:42:53] <SWPLinux> the Luminary
[23:43:01] <SWPLinux> the AVR32 isn't geared for motor control
[23:43:08] <ds3> SWPLinux: but aren't they 1.8V parts? which means a whole mess of power amps
[23:43:08] <renesis> its powerful enough to do it
[23:43:12] <SWPLinux> AVR32 has LCD controllers, ethernet, USB, ...
[23:43:24] <ds3> I wish their big AVR32 had OTG
[23:43:25] <renesis> yeah but code for quadrature and syncing pwm isnt hard
[23:43:27] <SWPLinux> ds3: yes, of course you need the FETs to drive the motor
[23:43:33] <renesis> especially at a couple hundred MHz
[23:43:49] <ds3> actually, you might be able todo quadrature sync in the ADI part
[23:43:56] <ds3> it has a PLD on board
[23:43:56] <SWPLinux> code for counting quadrature is actually very difficult to make fast enough, even on a microcontroller
[23:44:07] <ds3> so do it on the PLD ;)
[23:44:16] <SWPLinux> well, that's the easy way ;)
[23:44:22] <renesis> you could do that discrete pretty easy
[23:44:24] <ds3> it is on the ADI ARM chip
[23:44:27] <eric_u> I've seen the new micros guy say you can do it with a regular counter though
[23:44:43] <renesis> you could do it with a register, an sram location, whatever
[23:44:50] <SWPLinux> renesis: most microcontrollers don't have a direction input for their on-chip counters, even if they have an external count pin
[23:45:06] <renesis> theres overhead involved tho, interrupt entry/exit, etc
[23:45:18] <SWPLinux> so you'd need an external quad counter, and a serial or parallel interface to get the dat ainto the micro
[23:45:44] <renesis> you could just use a pcint, check the input against last
[23:45:50] <ds3> there is always a Microblaze on a Xilinx if you got the budget
[23:45:49] <renesis> inc or dec a reg
[23:46:03] <SWPLinux> that's the problem - unless you dedicate registers to the interrupt, you end up taking lots of cycles pushing/popping registers, then doing the actual counting (Which is ~10-15 instructions)
[23:46:23] <Rugludallur> SWPLinux: those drawings are Open Office Draw :D
[23:46:30] <renesis> dude avr is 32 working register, 16 full functional, and 3 ram pointers to access sram in a couple cycles
[23:46:34] <SWPLinux> Rugludallur: cool!
[23:46:45] <renesis> i dont see that as a problem as much as programming a microcontroller =)
[23:46:56] <SWPLinux> renesis: I'm very familiar with the AVR, I've been using them since they were released
[23:46:56] <ds3> SWPLinux: or go half way, use the onboard PLD and maintain a 5 bit counter in hardware with occassional interrupts in SW to do overflows
[23:47:15] <renesis> im saying, its doable, few lines of code
[23:47:30] <SWPLinux> renesis: I'm saying it isn't as simple as you think (I've done it ;) )
[23:47:40] <renesis> it wont be as fast as a dedicated circuit, either external or peripheral
[23:47:40] <ds3> SWPLinux: why did you choose the AVR route? I don't see a strong argument for them other then their DIP-8 parts
[23:47:44] <SWPLinux> ds3: yes, that can certainly work
[23:48:10] <renesis> avr is cheap and available, kickass instruction set
[23:48:17] <SWPLinux> I had been using PICs, but when an inexpensive chip that actually knew what to do with its carry bit came along, I jumped :)
[23:48:20] <ds3> same can be said about PICs
[23:48:27] <SWPLinux> bzzzt!
[23:48:28] <ds3> oh hehe
[23:48:31] <renesis> PIC docs are scary
[23:48:34] <renesis> wont touch the chips
[23:48:38] <SWPLinux> I think the PIC instruction set is crap (for most applications)
[23:48:48] <eric_u> how can you program without the carry bit?
[23:48:58] <ds3> hand coding on the PIC is pretty decent, IMO
[23:49:25] <SWPLinux> there are places where the treatment of a full memory bank as pseudo-registers is good, but in most cases, I can't justify the annoying banking, single working register, and a host of other pet peeves
[23:49:25] <cradek> which instruction set is better? the one gcc knows!
[23:49:36] <SWPLinux> AVR, regardless of GCC ;)
[23:50:00] <SWPLinux> I have an AVR (8-bit) program (in assembly) that's roughly 800k of source code
[23:50:12] <SWPLinux> that one should be C at this point, but isn't due to legacy reasons
[23:50:15] <cradek> I don't know why hobbyists are stuck on pics. Do they even have uarts yet?
[23:50:19] <renesis> hahahah
[23:50:31] <renesis> c, heheh
[23:50:35] <cradek> I've seen too many terrible bit-banging pic programs
[23:50:45] <ds3> who needs UART ;)
[23:50:53] <SWPLinux> cradek: sure, you can get them with UARTS, and they even decided that "flash" isn't a peripheral that needs to conflict with the UARTS :)
[23:50:53] <renesis> ?
[23:51:09] <eric_u> pic was very hobbyist friendly first
[23:51:16] <cradek> yep
[23:51:17] <eric_u> before that, life was very hard
[23:51:20] <ds3> think PICs are more available
[23:51:21] <cradek> that's why people still use them
[23:51:21] <renesis> bigger mega avr have 2 uart modules
[23:51:24] <SWPLinux> (it used to be that the flash parts had basically no peripherals - the flash was the "peripheral", in the old 16C84s)
[23:51:31] <renesis> ds3: theres tons of avr on digikey
[23:51:36] <ds3> and PICs don't get obsoleted as quickly
[23:51:39] <SWPLinux> PICs used to be cheaper than AVRs, but that's not true any more
[23:51:41] <renesis> and the local reps drive to my apartment to give me chips
[23:51:46] <ds3> renesis: try sampling an AVR!
[23:51:52] <renesis> like, how muich more avialable do you need?
[23:51:54] <SWPLinux> people use them because for some strange reason, PIC is like Kleenex
[23:52:02] <renesis> um, i get chips that arent at digikey yet =)
[23:52:08] <cradek> I use emacs
[23:52:15] <SWPLinux> I use Kate ;)
[23:52:15] <cradek> (... and vi)
[23:52:23] <renesis> i have atmega88, atmega164p, the newest 8dip 20MHz tiny
[23:52:24] <SWPLinux> (and nano)
[23:52:25] <renesis> free =D
[23:52:41] <ds3> The tiny's are so nice
[23:52:44] <jmkasunich> uh-oh, the 8-bitter wars are happening again
[23:52:50] <renesis> ds3: is all about your local rep, atmel distributes their sample orders
[23:52:58] <cradek> jmkasunich: I just started trying to make fun of the argument - join in
[23:53:05] <eric_u> I have about 40 8748's
[23:53:13] <SWPLinux> nah, just use the 32-bit ARMs that support Linux (and are only $2 more) and be done with it ;)
[23:53:14] <ds3> renesis: think every attempt at sampling an avr part has come back with.... no longer available
[23:53:36] <jmkasunich> I hate short life cycle parts, regardless of the vendor
[23:53:39] <renesis> i just ask for the biggest newest things
[23:53:42] <eric_u> now the 8748 has an instruction set that will put hair on your chest
[23:53:54] <SWPLinux> Z80000
[23:54:10] <ds3> what is a 32 bit ARM that supports fully Linux and is under $2 that is available in 1) Single quantities, and 2) does not come in a pin count > 48pins?!
[23:54:09] <eric_u> z32000
[23:54:10] <SWPLinux> (don't laugh, I still have the "preliminary" datasheet on that one ;) )
[23:54:23] <SWPLinux> the 32000 was a National Semiconductor part, I think
[23:54:33] <renesis> natsemi yayay
[23:54:38] <renesis> theyre awesome about samples
[23:54:40] <eric_u> you're right, flashbacks are low fidelity
[23:54:55] <SWPLinux> ds3: I give up...
[23:55:29] <SWPLinux> eric_u: as I recall, the 32000 series was available (for a short time) in two flavors, the 32016 (16-bit bus) and the 32032 (32-bit bus)
[23:55:49] <SWPLinux> one ow chich was in only one computer, I think an Acorn
[23:55:50] <SWPLinux> s/ow/of/
[23:55:52] <ds3> think the RM9200 and some Cirrus Logic parts are the only nonBGA ARMs that support full linux
[23:56:13] <SWPLinux> is the 9216 available in non-BGA?
[23:56:23] <SWPLinux> I guess I could look
[23:56:53] <eric_u> have you looked at some of the freescale arms? They have silly peripherals like vga and framegrabbers
[23:57:02] <SWPLinux> man. it is nice having a better internet connection in a hotel than I have at home
[23:57:10] <ds3> hahahahahah
[23:57:13] <SWPLinux> the AVR32 is in the same class
[23:57:27] <SWPLinux> (I have DSL at home, so it's not like I'm Ray or anything)
[23:57:28] <eric_u> you can do vga on an avr?
[23:57:41] <ds3> I am just happy for the free eval boards from ADI :)
[23:57:51] <SWPLinux> better - the AVR32 has a 2048x2048 LCD controller built in
[23:57:56] <renesis> cant really compare avr32 and arm yet
[23:58:10] <renesis> hard to compare arm to anything
[23:58:18] <SWPLinux> the AVR32 has identical peripherals to the Atmel ARM chips - it uses the same AHB bus internally
[23:58:35] <renesis> is what im saying, everyone makes an arm
[23:58:41] <SWPLinux> yes
[23:58:46] <renesis> theres gonna be tons more variety
[23:58:48] <ds3> unless you need USB host functionality
[23:58:54] <SWPLinux> actually, the one on the Mesa 4C81 is an interesting part
[23:59:06] <SWPLinux> it has a full 5-port 10/100 switch in it
[23:59:15] <SWPLinux> plus the ARM chip
[23:59:20] <SWPLinux> and other stuff
[23:59:37] <eric_u> usb host would be nice
[23:59:48] <SWPLinux> Mesa only uses 2 of the ports (the "upstream" and one of the switched ports)